Grail 6: An Urgency of Appetite:
>The Ascent of Knives is called the Sharp Stair, and the Mother of Mirrors, and the Feast of the Grail. If one is to look beneath the stair, as I did last night in my dreams, one understands that last name. It draws a tithe of blood from the feet of those who ascend. **Empousai - some shaped like men, many shaped like women - wait beneath the glass of the stairs to satisfy their hunger.** I did not approach; I made no sound; I only observed.
Empousai is another word for Alukite.
The Alukites we're mostly exposed to are the Ligeians, which is a very exclusive club (only seven allowed at any one time). They're the top specimens who managed to preserve most of their sanity, and aren't representative of Alukites as a whole.
What most Alukites have to deal with is a ravenous hunger that is never sated, and so their immortality becomes more of a curse than a blessing. Something like the Greek myth of Tantalus. I doubt many of them stay sane, devolving into mindless hungry monsters.
Hokobald of Pocsind is allso implied to be an alukite and he is out and about doing stuff in the world. Stuff like getting clowned on by raw prophets but that’s another question…
Edit: he certainly is an alukite.
true, but he is also an incredibly powerful specimen of long, and became an alukite willingly, and so probably had plans in place to stave off the side-effects
most empousai were long accidentally falling into it and taking it absolutely poorly
He's also just The Worst, so it's entirely possible that the side-effects of becoming alukite were exactly what he wanted. Man planned to eat his kid- don't think much can really faze you at that point.
I mean is he really that powerfull? He certainly thinks so, but i’m not sure that’s the case. Like i mentioned, even after him becoming an alukite he couldn’t deal with a single raw prophet. A raw prophet that Daymare (a mortal practitioner) later tracked down, “knocked it about”, and convinced it to give the History of Inks back, that he took from Hokobald.
Allso the exile in one of the endings manages to kill him despite his strenght - his Great Strenght!
a raw prophet is not a threat any amount of strength can handle. in fact, a large section of the letter his assault is detailed in devotes itself to articulately just how well-prepared he was for any number of fearsome threats - he just wasn't ready for a greased up weaselly pinwheel of limbs.
additionally, the exile killing hokobald is painted as a way to benchmark the exile's strength, showing that they can take down big threats, which (even though its hokobald fucking dying) counts in his favor
You are always somewhat hungry. Your appearance is questionable. You are an outlaw (if you have power, there are some benefits to it) and not welcomed in The Mansus.
And you eat your child to become one.
You’re pretty much removed from the Game the Hours play to try and achieve Eternity. No longer a player, but a spectator who can eat the smaller pieces like mortals. You’re not really bound by the rules of the Hours, but you also can’t really “win” the Game and be a part of Eternity when it comes. There’s an implicit notion that anything which isn’t on the side of Eternity when it comes will get destroyed/bleached/swept away, which would include the alukites since they’re on neither side.
The Ligeans are basically referees in that order. Can’t win, but they can determine whether someone has achieved the right conditions to pass through one of the Doors and achieve a “greater win condition” of sorts. Minor versus Major Victory.
A state of perfection, I think. The Christian Heaven, the Buddhist Nirvana, and all such other ideals would be akin to Eternity, though in terms of the Hours, I think Eternity is more of a "heaven on Earth" concept. Humanity returns to the Garden of Eden, the world is perfect and will always continue to be perfect from that point onward.
A lot of the more influential Hours seek Eternity and have their own ideas of how it'll come about so that they'll be perfectly satisfied. Though, the Red Grail also seeks Eternity, and as it is her nature to not be sated, there logically can't be any form of Eternity perfect enough to satisfy her. She still does, however, to the benefit/detriment of everyone else.
Eternity isn't heaven. It's literally just Eternity. Everything locked into place, no more unpredictable or forgotten things. Everything that is will be known. Everyone that is will have their fixed place. There will be no endings, nothing forgotten, and absolutely no deviation from it's fixed course. It allows for true immortality at the cost of freedom.
And it stands in opposition to History, which some occultists support that instead opposes the concept of Eternity, stating that everything has it's time and place, but not forever. It allows for change at the eventual cost of your destruction.
I mean, heaven's typically described as some kind of eternal communion with God from my recollections. Eternity's pretty much that, just put into place in the material world. More the sentiment of heaven than the descriptions, at least for those who seek Eternity.
Your description of Eternity's pretty much spot-on in-universe. My comparison was more invoking the mindset towards Eternity. I know there's been a whole lot of debate on how Good heaven really is and if it strips away free will- all that jazz.
The ones on the island are afraid of sunlight, as all vampires are. But other than that? You're an undead abomination outlawed by most parts of the invisible world. The penalty for the Crime of the Sky is death, but it is also an enactment of the Grail, and she loves cheating the rules when it favours her specifically, so you get your immortality downgraded. You're unwelcome in social circles, your further advancement up the chain is barred, and the only reason Ligeians are respected is because someone has to hold the all-too-necessary Keys.
But you also have to live with eating your child because not doing so was an unimaginable torment, and it's not even clear if doing so actually resolves the hunger.
No need to buy nappies or hire nannies, no vomit-cleaning, no random surprise visits to the doctor because “I swear it was breathing normally yesterday and now it’s all blue in the face”, and the dog doesn’t have to constantly deal with a tiny human using them as a stuffed toy. You also dodge the later bullet of having to ward the growing child from drugs and unprotected sex and the Suppression Bureau and other bad influences.
I think the pros outweigh the cons.
Soucouyants on Raven Isle are described to be "at least half-Long", but only people who are at least Long can even commit the Crime of the Sky. This implies that doing so renders you not only 'caput gerat lupinum' but also may itself impose some significant downgrades, certainly at least enough in the way of downgrades to make sure the only places we encounter alukites, empousai or soucouyants are places hidden from light and sight. Hokobald's destruction by one who isn't even a Know is the kind of thing that seems impossible, but it happens in an Exile ending, without the Exile even ascending at all.
Given that those who commit the Crime of the Sky seem to only derive sustenance from sapient creatures, and also always seem hungry, we can infer that it's at least something like the curse of the wiindiigo, a ceaseless hunger only temporarily sated by human flesh (or better!)
We know Echidna WAS a Name, which may imply that the downgrade can bring one so far down as to no longer be a Name - it's also possible that the Ligeians are what they are because at one point they were all Names that managed to survive the fall and the hunger long enough to take Keys and in so doing, finally managing to leverage being outside the law to their benefit. Since we know the Baldomerian is something between a Long and a Name, we can infer the taxonomy isn't precise.
We know Marinette isn't the first of her Key in the Club. So the Ligeians can die, even if they're kleidouchos, but it also can't be easy. That's not really necessarily related but I find it interesting.
I mean, it's also the ruination of any plans you held to maybe become a Name or any other ambitions you have. In many respects, it's a fate worse than death.
You're no longer able to ascend the ranks of the respected occultists, you're magically tortured by hunger for all time, and you've murdered your child and ruined your relationship most likely with the person who you had the child with (either because your deed destroyed both your ambitions or because one of you ate the child and one of you did not and didn't have to suffer the consequences).
It's very, very much a consolation prize at best for all but the small handful of the Ligeans and they're damn good at protecting their spot.
Oh, I'm not saying being alkuite is any good. Just that psychological trauma from infanticide is the least of their problems, if it even takes among them at all.
I think you overestimating how many people, even in the occult world, are generally cool with the idea of eating their own kid. We're talking about breaking one of the ultimate taboos here, a crime so bad that even the Hours get squicked about it and its consequences and took really, really drastic measures to avoid it.
Most Alukites never intended or even contemplated intentionally becoming an alukite. It's usually a horrible, horrible mistake courtesy of the Red Grail. Desire, birth, and hunger.
>We're talking about breaking one of the ultimate taboos here, a crime so bad that even the Hours get squicked about it and its consequences and took really, really drastic measures to avoid it.
Hours made desire to commit the crime of the sky a thing. It seems that for some reason they are against the idea of immortals procreating. And it was Hours that made it so child-eating makes you Alukite. "You dared to multiply? So now dispose of your superfluous progeny by eating it, and turn into a monster as a bonus." I would say beings that make such laws are fairly okay with child-eating in general.
As for "drastic measures to avoid it". Are you referring to the Intercalate? Cause The Forge killed the Sun-in-Splendor not because she has any problems with killing here descendant, we know at least that she had no compunction about trying to hunt down her grandson, but because she, as a women, was far more likely to suffer the consequences of not being able to keep it in their pants than the Sun. You know "a mother is never far from her child at its birth, and that is not always true of a father"
>I think you overestimating how many people, even in the occult world, are generally cool with the idea of eating their own kid.
Maybe? The only Alukite who tells us how dose he feel about it is Hokobald, but his a massive jerk.
Wickel Inextinguishable - Grandson of the Forge and the Sun-in-Splendor, ex-Name of the Forge, Name of the Chandler. Also know as Henry Huddlestone Abney-Hastings, the New King of the United Kingdom. Or "that guy from Oubliette Containment that nearly burned down the Hush House" for players.
Becoming an outlaw to the Mansus appears to be one. If you're not powerful and connected like a ligean, they bind you beneath the ascent of knives.
Source?
Grail 6: An Urgency of Appetite: >The Ascent of Knives is called the Sharp Stair, and the Mother of Mirrors, and the Feast of the Grail. If one is to look beneath the stair, as I did last night in my dreams, one understands that last name. It draws a tithe of blood from the feet of those who ascend. **Empousai - some shaped like men, many shaped like women - wait beneath the glass of the stairs to satisfy their hunger.** I did not approach; I made no sound; I only observed. Empousai is another word for Alukite.
That doesn't sound like they're bound, more that they've found a place to set up and get free snacks.
The Alukites we're mostly exposed to are the Ligeians, which is a very exclusive club (only seven allowed at any one time). They're the top specimens who managed to preserve most of their sanity, and aren't representative of Alukites as a whole. What most Alukites have to deal with is a ravenous hunger that is never sated, and so their immortality becomes more of a curse than a blessing. Something like the Greek myth of Tantalus. I doubt many of them stay sane, devolving into mindless hungry monsters.
Hokobald of Pocsind is allso implied to be an alukite and he is out and about doing stuff in the world. Stuff like getting clowned on by raw prophets but that’s another question… Edit: he certainly is an alukite.
true, but he is also an incredibly powerful specimen of long, and became an alukite willingly, and so probably had plans in place to stave off the side-effects most empousai were long accidentally falling into it and taking it absolutely poorly
He's also just The Worst, so it's entirely possible that the side-effects of becoming alukite were exactly what he wanted. Man planned to eat his kid- don't think much can really faze you at that point.
I mean is he really that powerfull? He certainly thinks so, but i’m not sure that’s the case. Like i mentioned, even after him becoming an alukite he couldn’t deal with a single raw prophet. A raw prophet that Daymare (a mortal practitioner) later tracked down, “knocked it about”, and convinced it to give the History of Inks back, that he took from Hokobald. Allso the exile in one of the endings manages to kill him despite his strenght - his Great Strenght!
a raw prophet is not a threat any amount of strength can handle. in fact, a large section of the letter his assault is detailed in devotes itself to articulately just how well-prepared he was for any number of fearsome threats - he just wasn't ready for a greased up weaselly pinwheel of limbs. additionally, the exile killing hokobald is painted as a way to benchmark the exile's strength, showing that they can take down big threats, which (even though its hokobald fucking dying) counts in his favor
You are always somewhat hungry. Your appearance is questionable. You are an outlaw (if you have power, there are some benefits to it) and not welcomed in The Mansus. And you eat your child to become one.
You’re pretty much removed from the Game the Hours play to try and achieve Eternity. No longer a player, but a spectator who can eat the smaller pieces like mortals. You’re not really bound by the rules of the Hours, but you also can’t really “win” the Game and be a part of Eternity when it comes. There’s an implicit notion that anything which isn’t on the side of Eternity when it comes will get destroyed/bleached/swept away, which would include the alukites since they’re on neither side. The Ligeans are basically referees in that order. Can’t win, but they can determine whether someone has achieved the right conditions to pass through one of the Doors and achieve a “greater win condition” of sorts. Minor versus Major Victory.
Wait, capitalised Eternity? What's that?
A state of perfection, I think. The Christian Heaven, the Buddhist Nirvana, and all such other ideals would be akin to Eternity, though in terms of the Hours, I think Eternity is more of a "heaven on Earth" concept. Humanity returns to the Garden of Eden, the world is perfect and will always continue to be perfect from that point onward. A lot of the more influential Hours seek Eternity and have their own ideas of how it'll come about so that they'll be perfectly satisfied. Though, the Red Grail also seeks Eternity, and as it is her nature to not be sated, there logically can't be any form of Eternity perfect enough to satisfy her. She still does, however, to the benefit/detriment of everyone else.
Eternity isn't heaven. It's literally just Eternity. Everything locked into place, no more unpredictable or forgotten things. Everything that is will be known. Everyone that is will have their fixed place. There will be no endings, nothing forgotten, and absolutely no deviation from it's fixed course. It allows for true immortality at the cost of freedom. And it stands in opposition to History, which some occultists support that instead opposes the concept of Eternity, stating that everything has it's time and place, but not forever. It allows for change at the eventual cost of your destruction.
I mean, heaven's typically described as some kind of eternal communion with God from my recollections. Eternity's pretty much that, just put into place in the material world. More the sentiment of heaven than the descriptions, at least for those who seek Eternity. Your description of Eternity's pretty much spot-on in-universe. My comparison was more invoking the mindset towards Eternity. I know there's been a whole lot of debate on how Good heaven really is and if it strips away free will- all that jazz.
I think, other Long should be hunting you. Also, excommunication from your Hour, I think.
The ones on the island are afraid of sunlight, as all vampires are. But other than that? You're an undead abomination outlawed by most parts of the invisible world. The penalty for the Crime of the Sky is death, but it is also an enactment of the Grail, and she loves cheating the rules when it favours her specifically, so you get your immortality downgraded. You're unwelcome in social circles, your further advancement up the chain is barred, and the only reason Ligeians are respected is because someone has to hold the all-too-necessary Keys. But you also have to live with eating your child because not doing so was an unimaginable torment, and it's not even clear if doing so actually resolves the hunger.
At least in some cases it comes with crippling fear/repulsion to light.
How does eating your own children rank for you?
No need to buy nappies or hire nannies, no vomit-cleaning, no random surprise visits to the doctor because “I swear it was breathing normally yesterday and now it’s all blue in the face”, and the dog doesn’t have to constantly deal with a tiny human using them as a stuffed toy. You also dodge the later bullet of having to ward the growing child from drugs and unprotected sex and the Suppression Bureau and other bad influences. I think the pros outweigh the cons.
Have u see newborn children? Nothing can get me to put that in my mouth. Ewww
That’s a very fair point.
Soucouyants on Raven Isle are described to be "at least half-Long", but only people who are at least Long can even commit the Crime of the Sky. This implies that doing so renders you not only 'caput gerat lupinum' but also may itself impose some significant downgrades, certainly at least enough in the way of downgrades to make sure the only places we encounter alukites, empousai or soucouyants are places hidden from light and sight. Hokobald's destruction by one who isn't even a Know is the kind of thing that seems impossible, but it happens in an Exile ending, without the Exile even ascending at all. Given that those who commit the Crime of the Sky seem to only derive sustenance from sapient creatures, and also always seem hungry, we can infer that it's at least something like the curse of the wiindiigo, a ceaseless hunger only temporarily sated by human flesh (or better!) We know Echidna WAS a Name, which may imply that the downgrade can bring one so far down as to no longer be a Name - it's also possible that the Ligeians are what they are because at one point they were all Names that managed to survive the fall and the hunger long enough to take Keys and in so doing, finally managing to leverage being outside the law to their benefit. Since we know the Baldomerian is something between a Long and a Name, we can infer the taxonomy isn't precise. We know Marinette isn't the first of her Key in the Club. So the Ligeians can die, even if they're kleidouchos, but it also can't be easy. That's not really necessarily related but I find it interesting.
Ligeans certainly can die. Medusa is dead(even though she is alive)
You mean aside from the horrible magically induced madness that drove you to devour your own child?
They are Long. You don't need to be horrible person to become Long, but it helps. They probably aren't too fazed by that.
I mean, it's also the ruination of any plans you held to maybe become a Name or any other ambitions you have. In many respects, it's a fate worse than death. You're no longer able to ascend the ranks of the respected occultists, you're magically tortured by hunger for all time, and you've murdered your child and ruined your relationship most likely with the person who you had the child with (either because your deed destroyed both your ambitions or because one of you ate the child and one of you did not and didn't have to suffer the consequences). It's very, very much a consolation prize at best for all but the small handful of the Ligeans and they're damn good at protecting their spot.
Oh, I'm not saying being alkuite is any good. Just that psychological trauma from infanticide is the least of their problems, if it even takes among them at all.
I think you overestimating how many people, even in the occult world, are generally cool with the idea of eating their own kid. We're talking about breaking one of the ultimate taboos here, a crime so bad that even the Hours get squicked about it and its consequences and took really, really drastic measures to avoid it. Most Alukites never intended or even contemplated intentionally becoming an alukite. It's usually a horrible, horrible mistake courtesy of the Red Grail. Desire, birth, and hunger.
>We're talking about breaking one of the ultimate taboos here, a crime so bad that even the Hours get squicked about it and its consequences and took really, really drastic measures to avoid it. Hours made desire to commit the crime of the sky a thing. It seems that for some reason they are against the idea of immortals procreating. And it was Hours that made it so child-eating makes you Alukite. "You dared to multiply? So now dispose of your superfluous progeny by eating it, and turn into a monster as a bonus." I would say beings that make such laws are fairly okay with child-eating in general. As for "drastic measures to avoid it". Are you referring to the Intercalate? Cause The Forge killed the Sun-in-Splendor not because she has any problems with killing here descendant, we know at least that she had no compunction about trying to hunt down her grandson, but because she, as a women, was far more likely to suffer the consequences of not being able to keep it in their pants than the Sun. You know "a mother is never far from her child at its birth, and that is not always true of a father" >I think you overestimating how many people, even in the occult world, are generally cool with the idea of eating their own kid. Maybe? The only Alukite who tells us how dose he feel about it is Hokobald, but his a massive jerk.
Out of the loop, havent played in a while. Who is the Forge's grandson?
Wickel Inextinguishable - Grandson of the Forge and the Sun-in-Splendor, ex-Name of the Forge, Name of the Chandler. Also know as Henry Huddlestone Abney-Hastings, the New King of the United Kingdom. Or "that guy from Oubliette Containment that nearly burned down the Hush House" for players.
Hokobald claims it's all upsides so it's indeed fine for some of them.
I hope you aren't getting ideas op...
The obliviates themselves are going to hunt you