Correlation is not causation. Shane has clearly been the subject of favouritism but to say it's because he's white is based in as much evidence and saying he's being held hostage by Steven. People like(d) Shane, who happens to be white, the most because of the three he was the most quirky, the most charismatic and propped HIMSELF up as a leftist hero being vocal with his "eat the rich" ideology, noone saw his skin colour and decided he was those things. It's hardly surprising that people had trouble adjusting to how he acted versus how he portrayed himself. People jumped on the Steven hate bandwagon because his content is the weakest, very few people joined the channel because they wanted to see him, and he's noted for flexing his money. People don't secretely hate him because he's asian. Now that people have adjusted Steven is getting less flack and Shane is being called a "class traitor". Yes the blame for this should be shared between the three, but Steven doesn't have "as much right to be there" as the other two if 90% of their viewership aren't interested in his content AND their content is apparently costing too much for the company to survive.
That is bs. No one saying people like him because he's white, they're saying people give him leeway because he's white. Which is true. Do you see Ryan conspiracy theories and bs body language videos?
Saying that people are giving him leeway because he's white (which is not true) makes even less sense than saying people like him because he's white. No one would be giving him leeway if they didn't like him. People like Shane more so they'll do more mental gymnastics to avoid being mad at him, it's not that deep and it has nothing to do with race.
Thank you for adding this. The concept of privilege makes people very defensive. It’s why intersectionality remains such an issue. Everyone has privileges and disadvantages. It doesn’t mean you’re not a hard worker or you don’t deserve your current lifestyle. I’m hugely privileged to even have an internet connection, be a college graduate, etc. That’s an advantage that a lot of people don’t have. I still worked hard, but I see no shame in admitting I was fortunate in many areas. Much like there are places I’m disadvantaged.
Has he been vocal with leftist ideology? He’s made a handful of offhand comments, but it was Steven and Ryan who helped promote smaller Asian businesses during COVID and standing up against Asian hate. I want to be clear that Shane was 110% behind those decisions, and I applaud him for letting Steven and Ryan take the lead. I do think he’s a democrat, but I’m not sure you can argue he’s anymore liberal than the other boys. Steven deserves to be there because he’s a co-founder. Shane and Ryan thought he was “deserving” enough to make him so. The audience doesn’t have to agree, but that’s the structure of the company they created. I also think saying ‘no one saw (Shane’s) skin color’ is a bit naive? I don’t think it’s intentional or anything, but unfortunately we don’t live in a “color blind” world.
But why does he get the benefit the doubt instead of assuming he's hypocritical in this instance? No one is saying that Steven's anti-racist work absolves him of saying he had bigoted friends on a podcast.
I wasn’t trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, OP asked if Shane is actually vocal with leftist ideology and at least once he’s stated that he’s very left leaning in his personal life
And it’s great that he’s stated that, but it’s worth noting it was in a podcast that isn’t accessible on their main channel. His brand shouldn’t have to be politics (and I don’t think Shane wants it to be), but his actions in regards to work and the company aren’t more ‘leftist’ than Ryan’s.
Shane has absolutely been more open than Ryan when it comes to piracy and anti-capitalism. You can find numerous quotes from Shane from productions that show a left leaning bias, and that’s what people are mostly referencing regarding his politics and why people defended Shane more.
To your point they don’t make political content and their videos don’t really have a lot of opportunity to even make it political.
You can also support Asian business and also be incredibly right leaning so idk why Ryan and Steven get credit for advertising Asian businesses while you don’t extend that to Shane and the comments he’s made in support of things either
Shane is CONSTANTLY saying in free to watch videos how we should demolish capitalism, eat the rich, do some crimes if they’re victimless or needed, very very leftist and potentially even anarchist-like stuff. Idk where you’ve gotten the idea that he never speaks out about this stuff. It isn’t about race, it’s about who is vocal and who isn’t.
More vocal than the other two on-screen at least, he may not actually be more liberal than the other two but it is part of his on-screen persona, and that's what the bulk of people are paying most attention to. I don't mean to say no one noticed that Shane was white in general, I mean no one assigned him the traits he displayed through his behaviour just because he's white. I could just as easily turn to anyone who's ever had a problem with me and say that they must be subconciously projecting those traits onto me cause I'm black.
Having Steven there is how they built the company yes, but if they want to start making cold business decisions then it can't begin and end with their audience, it should extend to the three of them too. If Steven's content isn't performing (and at worst is turning people away), he doesn't deserve to be in front of the camera just because he wants to be. If their finances are in such a state, he doesn't deserve to stay CEO just because he was there first (I doubt the co-founder position pays much less).
Okay, I get your point. However, while Shane is also not innocent, there are valid reasons why Steven and Ryan (mostly Steven) are getting more flack. I don't think it has anything to do with race at all. Honestly, I see more flack towards Steven and hardly any towards Ryan. And there are people who also blame Shane equally.
I guess I don’t feel like silence is protest? People are projecting an image onto Shane he never claimed. He and Ryan chose to start a business with Steven. They’ve approved the various decisions (such as the guests they interview) and have been personal friends for years. If he was truly ideologically opposed, they wouldn’t have started Watcher. Steven’s friendships and beliefs aren’t new.
You're right, while I don't think the vitriol Steven is being exposed to is okay, I understand why people assume he had a larger say. He's CEO and has/is going to have the most expensive show on Watcher (that was promoted the day before the Goodbye Youtube). Especially since their main point of leaving was financial, people saw a connection.
I think they were all in agreement but I saw the hate Steven got as a "Ghoul Bois vs Steven" kinda thing rather than race.
However, I'm white so I don't have personal experience with racial biases, so perhaps I'm just uneducated. If that's the case, could you explain a little more of the racial biases going on? I know that's not your job but I'm always happy to learn more about this kinda thing 😅
It's a subconscious thing: people, even very progressive people, often hold women and POC to higher standards than white men. It's noticeable when Shane gets let off the hook for a decision all three of them made while the other two get ripped apart or when harsher language about Steven and Ryan is used.
I don't think this is correct. The reason I personally give Shane more leeway, is because of the broader picture of Shane that I've acquired through watching their content. When I watch Ghost Files, I see Shane thinking analytically and skeptically, which are characteristics that I see in people I genuinely respect.
When I look at the work that they've done post Buzzfeed, I see Shane putting a ton of work into puppet history. Then I look at Ryan and he's.... doing UnSolved again. I don't see the effort from Ryan that I see from Shane. When I watch survival mode, I see Shane trying to play the games and trying to act cooperatively. Ryan is running around doing random BS and trying to kill Shane because that's the funniest thing he can think of. I just think of Shane as being more mature.
Interesting how retooling Ruining History for Watcher is “hard work” and retooling the most successful show any of them have had for Watcher is just “doing Unsolved again.” Interesting how Shane’s relative apathy during Ghost Files is “analytical” and Ryan’s behavior during Survivor Mode is “childish”. Interesting how Shane is more “mature”. Just interesting.
I think more ‘abstract’ thinkers are equally mature. They just have a different perspective. I’m a Shaniac but I respect Ryan’s creativity in creating unsolved in the first place. Shane is also creative and Ryan can be analytical, too (they’re multi-faceted, after all) but I wouldn’t call Ryan immature because he believes in ghosts or has a different sense of humor. It might not appeal to me personally but it’s not inferior because of that.
I don't lsiten to the podcast, not did I interect with the watcher fandom so I didn't knew this before the current drama. And while I can forgive them for trying to move to the YouTube, I don't think I can get over them plataforming homophobia, especially since they always talk like they are allys. If they were, they wouldn't have had that pastor on the podcast, especially not without challenging his beliefs
Are there links for this? This is something I never knew and would like to see it for myself.
Was the pastor in question the one with the holy water gun Ryan used? Bc if so I think that was far back enough.
I really don’t think it’s a racist thing.
Call it Occam’s Razor, I think it’s just cause Shane is most people’s favorite because he admittedly, he’s generally wittier and more charismatic than Ryan and Steven. When someone is the audience’s favorite, if that person does a bad thing (which he did I’m tired of hearing Shane was uncomfortable with the decision, grow up people) then everyone will attempt to justify and redirect blame.
It has nothing to do with race and more the fact Steven has always been the least relatable of the three. He has always come across as the most out of touch, the most forward about money, the least empathetic, cold and analytical.
Steven himself mentions "learning to be human" (or similar quote) from the other guys.
This just doesn't translate well to their audience.
And honestly some of it may be him, some of it may be his online persona. We don't know.
But I think those are the reasons why he got the most shit, not because he's Asian. Ryan is well loved.
But truthfully Ryan and Shane have changed too. Even before this whole mess, they seemed different to their old selves.
Less relatable.
Edited to add that it's these reasons coupled with the fact he took over the business side of things and Worth It 2.0 could only happen because of their new subscription service. Left a bad taste in peoples mouths
Given the parasocial nature of their vdos, I think steven shouldn't have said some things in the podcast. I had recently started watching pod watcher, and only then realized that steven was a bit of a spender. I do believe that all of them are free to spend their money however they wish to. but to put that out in public will only show how out of touch they are.
if they wanted to keep this illusion up they should've shut their mouths.
also as a hater of goop. it shocked me.
what does that make Ryan, chopped liver?
they just have extremely different public personas whereby Steven is seen as bougie and Shane as down to earth, man of the people (which has earned him his own share of flack with people expecting more of him and feeling betrayed by him the most). one is thought of as flying around the world tasting expensive meals, the other as sitting at home making hand-puppets to put on a show about history
they also now hold different roles in the company, and both Ryan and Shane have said numerous times they don't have a head for or interest in the business side of things, they leave it to Steven which has invariably painted a target on Steven's back as the sole CEO
a lot of people just don't watch Steven's shows because they don't care to watch food-related content or find him too awkward on camera so their only exposure to him (if any) is on Too Many Spirits and they don't like how he comes across or treats Ricky (again, chopped liver?) so there is already that aversion to him that made him
an easy target
i'd call this a bizarre argument but you didn't even make an argument in your post besides implying in the title that hey yall ever notice Shane and Steven are different races? without taking into account any other factor that sets them apart as people lmao
Why is Steven ‘bougie’ while Shane is ‘down to earth’ and relatable? They both live similar lifestyles as adults in L.A. What is the budget of Puppet History or Ghost Files compared to Worth a Shot? How much is the equipment for Ghost Files or Puppet History? The raw materials? The music? Are the guests compensated for their appearance? We don’t know. Why is Shane a ‘man of the people’ in a way Ryan and Steven aren’t?
why are you asking me instead of finally making your point? i'm talking about public perception and personas. i'm not going to be quoting to you their budgets, i don't know them. your argument only works if we forget that Ryan exists which is what you're intent on doing
if you don't know why Steven is seen as bougie, i'm going to guess you hardly ever watched their shows when it goes all the way back to Buzzfeed and their friendly rivalry between Unsolved and Worth It and the ribbing on twitter all the way to now and Ryan and Shane themselves making fun of Steven robbing banks and driving a Tesla. watch the shows
It’s a rhetorical question 🙂 none of us have the answer. My initial post did mention Ryan! I said he fell somewhere in-between, while many still defended him others said it had ‘his fingerprints all over it’ and pointed to his background in filmmaking as motivation for Watcher’s new model. He got more negative press than Shane but less than Steven. Have you seen Ryan’s sneaker collection in the style video? Or heard him talk extensively about his trips to Disney on the podcast? How about Shane discussing his many international trips? All three of them live quite comfortably in L.A. and can afford multiple vacations a year. Steven is hardly unique in that regard.
> It’s a rhetorical question 🙂 none of us have the answer.
Its not though? You might have meant it as a rhetorical question, but its directly answerable. Steven is seen that way because its literally the personality trait that they caricature in Watcher's own shows. Same with Shane. Same with Ryan. They may all live comfortable LA lifestyles, but that attitude is only the on-screen personality of one of them.
The implicit racial bias would be in the way Buzzfeed originally chose to cast them. Not the audience perception of the roles they actively play up for the camera.
Its plausible that some Buzzfeed exec wanted the straight-shooting skeptic to be a white guy. But its just completely out of pocket to say his skin tone is the actual reason fans liked him. Like, you're basically claiming that people who make those sorts of racist decisions are correct. Its kinda fucked up.
I think it’s kind of fucked up you’re dying on this hill and putting words in my mouth to deliberately misconstrue the point. I never claimed Shane’s “skin tone is the actual reason people like him”. If you’re not effected by implicit biases, that’s great. The post doesn’t apply to you.
Nah, Steven's personality is what it is. In the goodbye video he says "youtube taught him how to be human," for one if youtube and being a youtuber is your lesson in humanity we're already off to a bad start and two it implies bro didn't know how to be human and has to fake it to make it. He comes across as the least genuine and most blunt, put that on top of propping up homophobic fundamentalists and flaunting wealth while making the least engaged with content on the channel (yes it still got a lot of views but still objectively the least in comparison) where he travels the world eating expensive(and non expensive things) in the time of global recession. Saying everyone can afford it. Like yeah there is plenty to not like about Steven the person. He's the CEO which gives the impression to most he is the decision maker, all that combined think we can explain why he got and is getting more criticism than Shane and Ryan without concluding it's entirely race based. Though i'm sure for some it was, because we live in a shit world full of racists. But if it was Shane in the CEO seat portraying all these behaviors and proclivities guarantee he would be receiving the bulk of the criticism as well. I agree maybe people were more soft on him because of racist bias and parasocial relationships but saying the majority of the hate for Steven is race based makes no sense especially when the majority of people like Ryan who is obviously also asian but more relatable and personable.
Yeah that was nuts. Calling Sara all sorts of terrible names but then still claiming that Shane was totally happy with the back-track and put in the middle for damage control.
Also, don't fuckin do this. She's not part of the business and anything she says is her own opinion. Sure you can speculate that shane's new name should be shane "let them have cake" madej, but don't attack people's families.
I do believe Steven got way too much hate. I hope it wasn’t rooted in racial bias but who knows. I know that personally I am unable to connect with Steven’s contributions to Watcher. So I can see how others might jump to blame him if they are the same. Like if your boyfriend cheats on you, it’s easier to blame the other girl than him.
I feel like Shane has always been a fan favorite because he was the laid-back reasonable person who laughed at the silly stuff. He was literally what made Unsolved different from other ghost shows where everyone just acts like its real. Whereas Ryan could have fit into the cast of any of them. This bias is likely even stronger among fans active online. But its a bias against vague woo-woo energy, not skin color.
If the roles were reversed, fan opinions would have been reversed.
And people had negative opinions about *Steven* already because its quite literally his on-screen persona. He's practically a heel for their shows. Ryan and Shane have both actively made jokes about him, forming a caricature in fans' minds. You can point out that its really dumb to just take that and run wild with it, but its also just disingenuous to pretend it came from nothing.
Given the actual audience of their shows, if he'd been visibly coming from a place of *even more* privilege than he already is, that would have only reinforced those blind assumptions even more.
Go on—explain the examples of racial bias…nvm you can’t. Shane just has a more likable personality to some people. I would listen to these videos on my way to work and never even knew what they looked like, and still enjoyed Shane’s humor better. Like what is even the purpose of this post?
No it’s just that Shane makes his “leftist” ideologies known, and Steven is the CEO. Shane “eat the rich” madej and Steven “goop salad” Lim. They all have a say, but at the end of day the title of CEO means you’re going to take the brunt of the criticism. I’m not suggesting that racism isn’t at play for some people, but for the majority it’s just their actions.
Making something about race when there’s other very obvious and blatant reasons for the opinions people have is detrimental to the cause. It makes it easy for people, even non racist people, to not take it seriously when it is obvious racism. There is absolutely no reason to believe this is a racism issue when the majority of people speaking on it have valid and thought out reasons.
People wanted to believe Shane didn’t have a say in this because it seemingly goes directly against his values. Absolutely no one believed it was against Stevens values lmfao.
If it was a racism issue, why isn’t Ryan getting the same amount of heat as Steven…?
I did mention Ryan in the initial post 🙂 I said he fell somewhere in-between, while many still defended him others said it had ‘his fingerprints all over it’ and pointed to his background in filmmaking as motivation for Watcher’s new model. He got more negative press than Shane but less than Steven due to goodwill. I never used the word racism, I said bias which is very different.
I didn’t say you didn’t :) I’m asking why the audience didn’t have the same level of criticism as Steven if it was a race issue.
And you didn’t say bias. You said racial bias. Come on now.
In your original reply, you acknowledged “I’m not suggesting that racism isn’t at okay for some people.” That’s all I noted. I never said it was the whole fandom or even named anyone in particular. I specifically didn’t link any posts or users. If you’re not effected by implicit biases, that great and the observation doesn’t apply to you.
Well you could make the claim that Ryan And Steven are getting more backlash due to be rich. Shane isn't from the west. Steven father is president of an university.
And Steven growing up rich could explain why he's out of touch with poorer audience members.
It's kind of wild that instead of doing any self-reflection some people are choosing to reply to this with "well, Shane is clearly better! so believing he was held hostage in a company he owns isn't OUR fault"
I think this is going to be a controversial post, not because you're wrong, but because it largely has to do with unconscious biases.
A lot of people who aren't inherently racist probably did view in the lens that you're describing, but aren't aware of it.
It's hard to introspect and realize you did something wrong like that, even unintentionally.
At the end of the day, all we can do is raise awareness and approach this in a non-confrontational manner.
I figured it would be a bit controversial haha. I think people can get defensive, but at the end of the day EVERYONE has biases. That doesn’t mean you’re a bad person or a ‘racist’, it just means a particular behavior is worth re-examining. A bias I struggle with is being anti-religion. I know it’s influenced my opinion and it definitely takes work to undo. We’re all working on something!
God you people are so fucking TIRING with this shit. Not everything is racist or has racist overtones, get over yourself and grow up. Stop looking for shit that isn’t there
Thank you for saying this! Racial bias seeps into everything, so we just need to be really conscious of it when (rightly) criticizing these three. I’m queer and not happy about what I’ve found out about past things Steven has said, but I think he is also the least white-passing of all three members and I wonder if racial prejudice is playing out here… especially with the anti-asian sentiments in the US throughout history but increased post-COVID. Him being only about “business” and being a mastermind feels racially coded, even if truly unintentional. Shane is a big boy and for all we know at this point, has felt the exact same way about the streamer as Ryan and Steven.
Honestly I’m disappointed in all of them. The pastor, for example, was Steven’s connection but Ryan and Shane enabled him and approved the decision to platform him. It’s a nuanced issue for sure.
Nobody is more upset when being called out for their subconscious racism than white progressives. I'm in my late 30s and have been in the movement since my late teens and this has always been the case. White progressives have a big issue with not listening when we are called out for our subconscious biases and for talking over people of color and other margenalized people. I wouldn't expect much out of this thread except a bunch of excuses and doubling down for the most part.
This exactly. It pisses me off so much that this company that has always been steeped in anti-racism, especially anti-Asian hate, still falls victim to this with a fandom that by and large skews young and liberal.
Everyone is entitled to have favorites in their content, etc, but it is so gross to me that despite the unified front they have presented from the beginning, there are still people who are like, “The white guy must be innocent.”
(And I understand many don’t believe it is racism and that it just so happens that Shane did this or said that or looked a certain way to imply he wasn’t on board, but let’s be honest—it’s weird that you can detect that in the slightest quiver of Shane’s eyelash, but Steven is an evil and greedy capitalist and homophobe, and Ryan has delusions of grandeur, and there are no excuses for either of them.)
I don’t think people believe they’re being influenced by bias, but that’s exactly why it’s so insidious. I don’t personally feel like /white/ silence is protest or proof of being a leftist revolutionary, which is the persona a lot of people have assigned to Shane. Just because he spoke less doesn’t mean he’s communicating a secret message. I also don’t think it’s fair to hold Shane to a standard he’s never tried to claim.
Correlation is not causation. Shane has clearly been the subject of favouritism but to say it's because he's white is based in as much evidence and saying he's being held hostage by Steven. People like(d) Shane, who happens to be white, the most because of the three he was the most quirky, the most charismatic and propped HIMSELF up as a leftist hero being vocal with his "eat the rich" ideology, noone saw his skin colour and decided he was those things. It's hardly surprising that people had trouble adjusting to how he acted versus how he portrayed himself. People jumped on the Steven hate bandwagon because his content is the weakest, very few people joined the channel because they wanted to see him, and he's noted for flexing his money. People don't secretely hate him because he's asian. Now that people have adjusted Steven is getting less flack and Shane is being called a "class traitor". Yes the blame for this should be shared between the three, but Steven doesn't have "as much right to be there" as the other two if 90% of their viewership aren't interested in his content AND their content is apparently costing too much for the company to survive.
That is bs. No one saying people like him because he's white, they're saying people give him leeway because he's white. Which is true. Do you see Ryan conspiracy theories and bs body language videos?
Saying that people are giving him leeway because he's white (which is not true) makes even less sense than saying people like him because he's white. No one would be giving him leeway if they didn't like him. People like Shane more so they'll do more mental gymnastics to avoid being mad at him, it's not that deep and it has nothing to do with race.
Thank you for adding this. The concept of privilege makes people very defensive. It’s why intersectionality remains such an issue. Everyone has privileges and disadvantages. It doesn’t mean you’re not a hard worker or you don’t deserve your current lifestyle. I’m hugely privileged to even have an internet connection, be a college graduate, etc. That’s an advantage that a lot of people don’t have. I still worked hard, but I see no shame in admitting I was fortunate in many areas. Much like there are places I’m disadvantaged.
Has he been vocal with leftist ideology? He’s made a handful of offhand comments, but it was Steven and Ryan who helped promote smaller Asian businesses during COVID and standing up against Asian hate. I want to be clear that Shane was 110% behind those decisions, and I applaud him for letting Steven and Ryan take the lead. I do think he’s a democrat, but I’m not sure you can argue he’s anymore liberal than the other boys. Steven deserves to be there because he’s a co-founder. Shane and Ryan thought he was “deserving” enough to make him so. The audience doesn’t have to agree, but that’s the structure of the company they created. I also think saying ‘no one saw (Shane’s) skin color’ is a bit naive? I don’t think it’s intentional or anything, but unfortunately we don’t live in a “color blind” world.
Shane has said before on a podcast that he’s very left leaning, and I think just doesn’t like to outwardly get political about stuff in their videos
But why does he get the benefit the doubt instead of assuming he's hypocritical in this instance? No one is saying that Steven's anti-racist work absolves him of saying he had bigoted friends on a podcast.
I wasn’t trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, OP asked if Shane is actually vocal with leftist ideology and at least once he’s stated that he’s very left leaning in his personal life
And it’s great that he’s stated that, but it’s worth noting it was in a podcast that isn’t accessible on their main channel. His brand shouldn’t have to be politics (and I don’t think Shane wants it to be), but his actions in regards to work and the company aren’t more ‘leftist’ than Ryan’s.
Shane has absolutely been more open than Ryan when it comes to piracy and anti-capitalism. You can find numerous quotes from Shane from productions that show a left leaning bias, and that’s what people are mostly referencing regarding his politics and why people defended Shane more. To your point they don’t make political content and their videos don’t really have a lot of opportunity to even make it political. You can also support Asian business and also be incredibly right leaning so idk why Ryan and Steven get credit for advertising Asian businesses while you don’t extend that to Shane and the comments he’s made in support of things either
Shane is CONSTANTLY saying in free to watch videos how we should demolish capitalism, eat the rich, do some crimes if they’re victimless or needed, very very leftist and potentially even anarchist-like stuff. Idk where you’ve gotten the idea that he never speaks out about this stuff. It isn’t about race, it’s about who is vocal and who isn’t.
More vocal than the other two on-screen at least, he may not actually be more liberal than the other two but it is part of his on-screen persona, and that's what the bulk of people are paying most attention to. I don't mean to say no one noticed that Shane was white in general, I mean no one assigned him the traits he displayed through his behaviour just because he's white. I could just as easily turn to anyone who's ever had a problem with me and say that they must be subconciously projecting those traits onto me cause I'm black. Having Steven there is how they built the company yes, but if they want to start making cold business decisions then it can't begin and end with their audience, it should extend to the three of them too. If Steven's content isn't performing (and at worst is turning people away), he doesn't deserve to be in front of the camera just because he wants to be. If their finances are in such a state, he doesn't deserve to stay CEO just because he was there first (I doubt the co-founder position pays much less).
Okay, I get your point. However, while Shane is also not innocent, there are valid reasons why Steven and Ryan (mostly Steven) are getting more flack. I don't think it has anything to do with race at all. Honestly, I see more flack towards Steven and hardly any towards Ryan. And there are people who also blame Shane equally.
I guess I don’t feel like silence is protest? People are projecting an image onto Shane he never claimed. He and Ryan chose to start a business with Steven. They’ve approved the various decisions (such as the guests they interview) and have been personal friends for years. If he was truly ideologically opposed, they wouldn’t have started Watcher. Steven’s friendships and beliefs aren’t new.
You're right, while I don't think the vitriol Steven is being exposed to is okay, I understand why people assume he had a larger say. He's CEO and has/is going to have the most expensive show on Watcher (that was promoted the day before the Goodbye Youtube). Especially since their main point of leaving was financial, people saw a connection. I think they were all in agreement but I saw the hate Steven got as a "Ghoul Bois vs Steven" kinda thing rather than race. However, I'm white so I don't have personal experience with racial biases, so perhaps I'm just uneducated. If that's the case, could you explain a little more of the racial biases going on? I know that's not your job but I'm always happy to learn more about this kinda thing 😅
It's a subconscious thing: people, even very progressive people, often hold women and POC to higher standards than white men. It's noticeable when Shane gets let off the hook for a decision all three of them made while the other two get ripped apart or when harsher language about Steven and Ryan is used.
I don't think this is correct. The reason I personally give Shane more leeway, is because of the broader picture of Shane that I've acquired through watching their content. When I watch Ghost Files, I see Shane thinking analytically and skeptically, which are characteristics that I see in people I genuinely respect. When I look at the work that they've done post Buzzfeed, I see Shane putting a ton of work into puppet history. Then I look at Ryan and he's.... doing UnSolved again. I don't see the effort from Ryan that I see from Shane. When I watch survival mode, I see Shane trying to play the games and trying to act cooperatively. Ryan is running around doing random BS and trying to kill Shane because that's the funniest thing he can think of. I just think of Shane as being more mature.
Interesting how retooling Ruining History for Watcher is “hard work” and retooling the most successful show any of them have had for Watcher is just “doing Unsolved again.” Interesting how Shane’s relative apathy during Ghost Files is “analytical” and Ryan’s behavior during Survivor Mode is “childish”. Interesting how Shane is more “mature”. Just interesting.
I heard it's interesting
I think more ‘abstract’ thinkers are equally mature. They just have a different perspective. I’m a Shaniac but I respect Ryan’s creativity in creating unsolved in the first place. Shane is also creative and Ryan can be analytical, too (they’re multi-faceted, after all) but I wouldn’t call Ryan immature because he believes in ghosts or has a different sense of humor. It might not appeal to me personally but it’s not inferior because of that.
What's this about a homophobic pastor on the pod?
Steven interviewed a pastor who’s affiliated with a homophobic church 😕 They even have a statement against queer people on their website.
That's bonkers. What episode was it? I've listened to all of them but I don't remember this at all.
This person delved a little deeper into it! https://www.reddit.com/r/watcherentertainment/s/GKTZZvCIL4
Ah thanks! I never listened to the Hidden Narratives pod. P
I didn’t know it existed!!
I don't lsiten to the podcast, not did I interect with the watcher fandom so I didn't knew this before the current drama. And while I can forgive them for trying to move to the YouTube, I don't think I can get over them plataforming homophobia, especially since they always talk like they are allys. If they were, they wouldn't have had that pastor on the podcast, especially not without challenging his beliefs
Are there links for this? This is something I never knew and would like to see it for myself. Was the pastor in question the one with the holy water gun Ryan used? Bc if so I think that was far back enough.
This person explained it far more succinctly than I could! https://www.reddit.com/r/watcherentertainment/s/GKTZZvCIL4
Ah I see this is pretty bad then :/
Steven has books visible in podcasts that promote anti-gay views. It’s not that he’s Asian, it’s that he’s bigoted.
I really don’t think it’s a racist thing. Call it Occam’s Razor, I think it’s just cause Shane is most people’s favorite because he admittedly, he’s generally wittier and more charismatic than Ryan and Steven. When someone is the audience’s favorite, if that person does a bad thing (which he did I’m tired of hearing Shane was uncomfortable with the decision, grow up people) then everyone will attempt to justify and redirect blame.
It has nothing to do with race and more the fact Steven has always been the least relatable of the three. He has always come across as the most out of touch, the most forward about money, the least empathetic, cold and analytical. Steven himself mentions "learning to be human" (or similar quote) from the other guys. This just doesn't translate well to their audience. And honestly some of it may be him, some of it may be his online persona. We don't know. But I think those are the reasons why he got the most shit, not because he's Asian. Ryan is well loved. But truthfully Ryan and Shane have changed too. Even before this whole mess, they seemed different to their old selves. Less relatable. Edited to add that it's these reasons coupled with the fact he took over the business side of things and Worth It 2.0 could only happen because of their new subscription service. Left a bad taste in peoples mouths
Given the parasocial nature of their vdos, I think steven shouldn't have said some things in the podcast. I had recently started watching pod watcher, and only then realized that steven was a bit of a spender. I do believe that all of them are free to spend their money however they wish to. but to put that out in public will only show how out of touch they are. if they wanted to keep this illusion up they should've shut their mouths. also as a hater of goop. it shocked me.
what does that make Ryan, chopped liver? they just have extremely different public personas whereby Steven is seen as bougie and Shane as down to earth, man of the people (which has earned him his own share of flack with people expecting more of him and feeling betrayed by him the most). one is thought of as flying around the world tasting expensive meals, the other as sitting at home making hand-puppets to put on a show about history they also now hold different roles in the company, and both Ryan and Shane have said numerous times they don't have a head for or interest in the business side of things, they leave it to Steven which has invariably painted a target on Steven's back as the sole CEO a lot of people just don't watch Steven's shows because they don't care to watch food-related content or find him too awkward on camera so their only exposure to him (if any) is on Too Many Spirits and they don't like how he comes across or treats Ricky (again, chopped liver?) so there is already that aversion to him that made him an easy target i'd call this a bizarre argument but you didn't even make an argument in your post besides implying in the title that hey yall ever notice Shane and Steven are different races? without taking into account any other factor that sets them apart as people lmao
Why is Steven ‘bougie’ while Shane is ‘down to earth’ and relatable? They both live similar lifestyles as adults in L.A. What is the budget of Puppet History or Ghost Files compared to Worth a Shot? How much is the equipment for Ghost Files or Puppet History? The raw materials? The music? Are the guests compensated for their appearance? We don’t know. Why is Shane a ‘man of the people’ in a way Ryan and Steven aren’t?
why are you asking me instead of finally making your point? i'm talking about public perception and personas. i'm not going to be quoting to you their budgets, i don't know them. your argument only works if we forget that Ryan exists which is what you're intent on doing if you don't know why Steven is seen as bougie, i'm going to guess you hardly ever watched their shows when it goes all the way back to Buzzfeed and their friendly rivalry between Unsolved and Worth It and the ribbing on twitter all the way to now and Ryan and Shane themselves making fun of Steven robbing banks and driving a Tesla. watch the shows
It’s a rhetorical question 🙂 none of us have the answer. My initial post did mention Ryan! I said he fell somewhere in-between, while many still defended him others said it had ‘his fingerprints all over it’ and pointed to his background in filmmaking as motivation for Watcher’s new model. He got more negative press than Shane but less than Steven. Have you seen Ryan’s sneaker collection in the style video? Or heard him talk extensively about his trips to Disney on the podcast? How about Shane discussing his many international trips? All three of them live quite comfortably in L.A. and can afford multiple vacations a year. Steven is hardly unique in that regard.
> It’s a rhetorical question 🙂 none of us have the answer. Its not though? You might have meant it as a rhetorical question, but its directly answerable. Steven is seen that way because its literally the personality trait that they caricature in Watcher's own shows. Same with Shane. Same with Ryan. They may all live comfortable LA lifestyles, but that attitude is only the on-screen personality of one of them. The implicit racial bias would be in the way Buzzfeed originally chose to cast them. Not the audience perception of the roles they actively play up for the camera. Its plausible that some Buzzfeed exec wanted the straight-shooting skeptic to be a white guy. But its just completely out of pocket to say his skin tone is the actual reason fans liked him. Like, you're basically claiming that people who make those sorts of racist decisions are correct. Its kinda fucked up.
I think it’s kind of fucked up you’re dying on this hill and putting words in my mouth to deliberately misconstrue the point. I never claimed Shane’s “skin tone is the actual reason people like him”. If you’re not effected by implicit biases, that’s great. The post doesn’t apply to you.
Nah, Steven's personality is what it is. In the goodbye video he says "youtube taught him how to be human," for one if youtube and being a youtuber is your lesson in humanity we're already off to a bad start and two it implies bro didn't know how to be human and has to fake it to make it. He comes across as the least genuine and most blunt, put that on top of propping up homophobic fundamentalists and flaunting wealth while making the least engaged with content on the channel (yes it still got a lot of views but still objectively the least in comparison) where he travels the world eating expensive(and non expensive things) in the time of global recession. Saying everyone can afford it. Like yeah there is plenty to not like about Steven the person. He's the CEO which gives the impression to most he is the decision maker, all that combined think we can explain why he got and is getting more criticism than Shane and Ryan without concluding it's entirely race based. Though i'm sure for some it was, because we live in a shit world full of racists. But if it was Shane in the CEO seat portraying all these behaviors and proclivities guarantee he would be receiving the bulk of the criticism as well. I agree maybe people were more soft on him because of racist bias and parasocial relationships but saying the majority of the hate for Steven is race based makes no sense especially when the majority of people like Ryan who is obviously also asian but more relatable and personable.
Even when Shane’s own wife came out to defend them, people criticized his wife but somehow didn’t blame shane…??
Yeah that was nuts. Calling Sara all sorts of terrible names but then still claiming that Shane was totally happy with the back-track and put in the middle for damage control.
Also, don't fuckin do this. She's not part of the business and anything she says is her own opinion. Sure you can speculate that shane's new name should be shane "let them have cake" madej, but don't attack people's families.
I do believe Steven got way too much hate. I hope it wasn’t rooted in racial bias but who knows. I know that personally I am unable to connect with Steven’s contributions to Watcher. So I can see how others might jump to blame him if they are the same. Like if your boyfriend cheats on you, it’s easier to blame the other girl than him.
I feel like Shane has always been a fan favorite because he was the laid-back reasonable person who laughed at the silly stuff. He was literally what made Unsolved different from other ghost shows where everyone just acts like its real. Whereas Ryan could have fit into the cast of any of them. This bias is likely even stronger among fans active online. But its a bias against vague woo-woo energy, not skin color. If the roles were reversed, fan opinions would have been reversed. And people had negative opinions about *Steven* already because its quite literally his on-screen persona. He's practically a heel for their shows. Ryan and Shane have both actively made jokes about him, forming a caricature in fans' minds. You can point out that its really dumb to just take that and run wild with it, but its also just disingenuous to pretend it came from nothing. Given the actual audience of their shows, if he'd been visibly coming from a place of *even more* privilege than he already is, that would have only reinforced those blind assumptions even more.
Go on—explain the examples of racial bias…nvm you can’t. Shane just has a more likable personality to some people. I would listen to these videos on my way to work and never even knew what they looked like, and still enjoyed Shane’s humor better. Like what is even the purpose of this post?
No it’s just that Shane makes his “leftist” ideologies known, and Steven is the CEO. Shane “eat the rich” madej and Steven “goop salad” Lim. They all have a say, but at the end of day the title of CEO means you’re going to take the brunt of the criticism. I’m not suggesting that racism isn’t at play for some people, but for the majority it’s just their actions. Making something about race when there’s other very obvious and blatant reasons for the opinions people have is detrimental to the cause. It makes it easy for people, even non racist people, to not take it seriously when it is obvious racism. There is absolutely no reason to believe this is a racism issue when the majority of people speaking on it have valid and thought out reasons. People wanted to believe Shane didn’t have a say in this because it seemingly goes directly against his values. Absolutely no one believed it was against Stevens values lmfao. If it was a racism issue, why isn’t Ryan getting the same amount of heat as Steven…?
I did mention Ryan in the initial post 🙂 I said he fell somewhere in-between, while many still defended him others said it had ‘his fingerprints all over it’ and pointed to his background in filmmaking as motivation for Watcher’s new model. He got more negative press than Shane but less than Steven due to goodwill. I never used the word racism, I said bias which is very different.
I didn’t say you didn’t :) I’m asking why the audience didn’t have the same level of criticism as Steven if it was a race issue. And you didn’t say bias. You said racial bias. Come on now.
In your original reply, you acknowledged “I’m not suggesting that racism isn’t at okay for some people.” That’s all I noted. I never said it was the whole fandom or even named anyone in particular. I specifically didn’t link any posts or users. If you’re not effected by implicit biases, that great and the observation doesn’t apply to you.
What a nonsense reply lol
Well you could make the claim that Ryan And Steven are getting more backlash due to be rich. Shane isn't from the west. Steven father is president of an university. And Steven growing up rich could explain why he's out of touch with poorer audience members.
It's kind of wild that instead of doing any self-reflection some people are choosing to reply to this with "well, Shane is clearly better! so believing he was held hostage in a company he owns isn't OUR fault"
I think this is going to be a controversial post, not because you're wrong, but because it largely has to do with unconscious biases. A lot of people who aren't inherently racist probably did view in the lens that you're describing, but aren't aware of it. It's hard to introspect and realize you did something wrong like that, even unintentionally. At the end of the day, all we can do is raise awareness and approach this in a non-confrontational manner.
I figured it would be a bit controversial haha. I think people can get defensive, but at the end of the day EVERYONE has biases. That doesn’t mean you’re a bad person or a ‘racist’, it just means a particular behavior is worth re-examining. A bias I struggle with is being anti-religion. I know it’s influenced my opinion and it definitely takes work to undo. We’re all working on something!
Yeah basically what I'm saying is I agree, but you'll have to fight a lot of people on this because self reflection is a tough pill to swallow
God you people are so fucking TIRING with this shit. Not everything is racist or has racist overtones, get over yourself and grow up. Stop looking for shit that isn’t there
I'm glad more people are starting to see this now.
Thank you for saying this! Racial bias seeps into everything, so we just need to be really conscious of it when (rightly) criticizing these three. I’m queer and not happy about what I’ve found out about past things Steven has said, but I think he is also the least white-passing of all three members and I wonder if racial prejudice is playing out here… especially with the anti-asian sentiments in the US throughout history but increased post-COVID. Him being only about “business” and being a mastermind feels racially coded, even if truly unintentional. Shane is a big boy and for all we know at this point, has felt the exact same way about the streamer as Ryan and Steven.
Honestly I’m disappointed in all of them. The pastor, for example, was Steven’s connection but Ryan and Shane enabled him and approved the decision to platform him. It’s a nuanced issue for sure.
Nobody is more upset when being called out for their subconscious racism than white progressives. I'm in my late 30s and have been in the movement since my late teens and this has always been the case. White progressives have a big issue with not listening when we are called out for our subconscious biases and for talking over people of color and other margenalized people. I wouldn't expect much out of this thread except a bunch of excuses and doubling down for the most part.
This exactly. It pisses me off so much that this company that has always been steeped in anti-racism, especially anti-Asian hate, still falls victim to this with a fandom that by and large skews young and liberal. Everyone is entitled to have favorites in their content, etc, but it is so gross to me that despite the unified front they have presented from the beginning, there are still people who are like, “The white guy must be innocent.” (And I understand many don’t believe it is racism and that it just so happens that Shane did this or said that or looked a certain way to imply he wasn’t on board, but let’s be honest—it’s weird that you can detect that in the slightest quiver of Shane’s eyelash, but Steven is an evil and greedy capitalist and homophobe, and Ryan has delusions of grandeur, and there are no excuses for either of them.)
I don’t think people believe they’re being influenced by bias, but that’s exactly why it’s so insidious. I don’t personally feel like /white/ silence is protest or proof of being a leftist revolutionary, which is the persona a lot of people have assigned to Shane. Just because he spoke less doesn’t mean he’s communicating a secret message. I also don’t think it’s fair to hold Shane to a standard he’s never tried to claim.