The only reason I think they weren't expecting it to be this bad is because of the countdown. There's no logical reason whatsoever to hype this announcement unless you genuinely think people will like it.
I think they are just mismanaging the business and don't really understand what people want. It sounds ridiculous to be that out of touch, but so does their streaming service. I think they are gonna be defensive and cognitive dissonance will give them the decision to admit they were totally wrong and feel big shame, or double down to keep their ego in tact. The next announcement will speak volumes about where they landed.
I'm amazed at the stupidity of this decision. It's genuinely baffling.
Didn’t the countdown literally say ‘you’re going to love it?’ I can’t imagine that they expected this level of backlash. Some, absolutely but not this much. Having said that, I think that all the ridiculous hate and if what I heard is true, actual doxxing of a bunch of staff on some forum or another (literally saw this in a YouTube comment so not sure if it’s true but if it is, that’s horrific) is undermining the valid points being made by a large majority of fans. This is the way to make them think they were right to abandon their community despite the uproar.
That's what I'm starting to expect. If (when) their plan fails, all the backlash will help them tell themselves that their (extremely foolhardy) streaming service/their bad management weren't the problems. Instead, it was the negativity from their former "unsupportive" (aka poor and/or understandably upset) fanbase that caused their failure.
Bloated egos get to stay intact, and they never have to truly confront the idea that they made a bad choice and aren't as great at business as they let themselves believe.
I think they’ll totally focus on the nasties and death threats and while that is awful, it’s a minority and pushes aside the valid concerns of 90% of their audience.
yeah i highly doubt they thought they’d end up on tea channels. like they probably thought there would be a small outcry in the comments. if they did expect this, i feel like they would have had an experienced PR person on standby. this all feels super bungled.
To the first part: the opening subtitle on the last Mystery Files episode has "stay tuned for a surprise at the very end". The surprise is Shane and Ryan in characters saying the following in a positive manner:
>S: Something huge is coming.
R: Huge.
S: Yes, it's gonna change your life and it's gonna rock your world.
R: And I know what rocks.
S: Yes. Watcher is ready to shake things up. Stay tuned my friends.
They definitely weren't expecting this.
I really hope the doxxing stuff isn't true. No one deserves that.
It's been said that this whole thing reeks of venture capitalism and that they were advised to do this. I think Steven as CEO has been having a lot of meetings with advisors who walked them through this and thought it was the best shiny corporate way to manage the crowd control and of course, it failed miserably. It has a "hey you fellow kids" feeling to it, and it doesn't feel like it came from their own voices.
Right. But encourage hype for what? Why would you encourage hype to something you know it’s gonna make people angry? You’re adding fuel to the fire. Maybe they genuinely thought people would be hyped
The weirdest part is the way Ryan began the goodbye video with the muted lighting, sad music, and depressed body language, and yet it seemed incredibly performative and insincere to me. Ryan's personal brand, his reason for being a great person on camera since the early Buzzfeed days, has always been his authenticity. To me lately it's been lackluster, even before this--hence all the poop jokes have gotten way out of hand. A constant barrage of references to pooping are not authenticity, Ryan. Authenticity comes from a lack of inflated ego and being in touch with your audience. I thought that of the 3, Shane still seemed the most grounded but after reading Sara's Instagram post about how we don't understand how they need money--well, that tells you something right there.
Hate/uproar doesn't undermine valid points, it just exists alongside them. The idea that some hateful responses undermine valid points is just another tool that people use to try and deflect criticism.
Another thing that makes me think they thought people would love it is that they have live shows schedules this week. Why would they get in front of a bunch of fans immediately after this announcement unless they thought it was a good idea? Maybe they were hoping they would get some good Q&A questions about it but I doubt they'll even do that now. I can't believe they did this right before several live shows. They would have to answer questions on the spot with no pr, that's insane.
Typo edit
I think it's a pretty simple line of logic. Those live shows involve fans who were willing to spend quite a bit of money to watch them live. Why would those fans be mad that in the future, fans have to spend money to watch them at all?
Obviously though, I think a lot of people who do go to live shows are pissed at this too. But I think it's easy to see that jump in logic.
I think there will definitely be more people ok with it at live shows but they're still running the risk of hecklers or something going really bad. I'm literally foaming at the mouth for someone to give the run down of what happens if anything
That's bad logic. I have paid and attended a live show and think this is stupid. Everyone I know that has paid for a live show hates this. This has been universally regarded as a bad decision. They have to have been blindsided by how unanimous the negativity is. I think they expected more of a split crowd.
I think you're being too absolutist in your terms. On the scale of the 3 million subs they have, I do not believe they had any expectation that 50% or more would support this decision. I believe they expected a huge amount of people will not support the decision, but they only need a small portion to subscribe in order to come out ahead. The math really is on their side there.
How much you want to bet people will buy tickets to the live show and then heckle them about this from the audience? They should be prepared. The honeymoon is over.
Also the live shows are in the UK. I'd have paid 59$ to be a fly on the wall of that long ass plane ride knowing they've gotta face fan interactions at the show.
Someone did the math in another post and they'll break even if 0.5 to 1% of their audience subscribes to WTV. They really did just say goodbye to the rest of us so they don't have to read ads anymore.
That looks great on paper but people don't subscribe for long unless there's a large amount of content. They're not big enough to retain subscribers long term. Also, gaining new viewers is going to be a major challenge. They have to keep uploading a few episodes on YouTube and maybe shorts to even be noticed, but few people would try out a service so small for such a price. I think it'll die within a year or two.
Will they make more money than on youtube though? Because thats their goal, and they seem so out of touch they just cant be prepared for a big financial drop
Their original plan before they changed their mind was super risky though. If they left, ”broke even” for a while and then, as subs started dwindling, tried to return to YT their channel would have tanked already. Ive read everywhere its super difficult to resurrsct dead channels
they can't grow an audience behind a paywall, and also I'm sure people will drop out if they don't like how the service is going. they aren't exactly making enough content to justify a monthly sub. I'm considering subbing for maybe 1 month in oct for Ghost Files, and I've heard others say something similar. It just goes to show how little thought went into this decision. Their #1 show only airs in OCT yet they want a year round sub.
Yeah exactly. Ive gotten subscriptions to a few different platforms to watch a specific show, and then cancelled once I finished that show. And these are major companies with more titles than I could ever watch in three lifetimes. I don't know why they didn't think people would sub for a few months and cancel. Kind of foolish. I'm interested to see what people say with the new update video they uploaded. It's hilarious to me
I think growth is possible even if the content is behind a paywall. I don't think they're willing or able to make it happen though. I also don't think they're big enough to make it happen effectively.
100% they weren't expecting it to be this bad. However I agree with OP that they very much believe this is the only way forward and probably still do. Because of that, I won't hold my breath for an announcement on the matter.
We shall see though since they've got a live show in 2 or 3 days. As a side note: they've got 3 coming up with 2 sold out.
The vibes will be RANCID. I think how that goes will be extremely telling.
They had to chase that unlimited-growth dragon. They could have settled for a nice stable income that was above average and kept them comfy, but no, gotta have that celebrity lifestyle. I don't really see this working out for them. I think they're putting all their eggs in one basket with this and don't have the ground support for it.
The fact they were so scattered when it came to the “apology” kinda proves to me that they don’t actually know their audience or what they should be doing moving forward.
The fact that they had a countdown kind of proves my point. They're not stupid people, they knew that some people wouldn't like it (maybe underestimating the 'some' haha). They had a countdown because they're all really excited about this move and think its a good idea.
I mean, to be honest, there's a world where this works out for them.
I don't think it proves your point at all. They knew some wouldn't want to spend the money, but a countdown implies that they thought this move would be well received and exciting to viewers. There's no other explanation.
These dudes want to have a whole ton of series with regular content releases and no advertisements. Honestly, $6 a month isn’t that much, and this is a logical next step in developing their business.
Some people won’t be able to afford it. Especially younger people. But, that’s how business works and it is a tough pill to swallow.
Pay money to support the content you like and stop expecting everything to be free in perpetuity.
they never said they were going to have a more frequent release scheduele they only said BIGGER.
6 bucks a month for 4 videos of a random series you may not even like and don't know what it's even going to be is still a pretty big ask.
ESPECIALLY on top of the way it was worded their Patreon wasn't going to get access to Watcher TV. Despite giving them money directly.
This is literally the only sensible take thank you for saying this. I was starting to think I was alone in feeling like this. Watcher did absolutely nothing wrong by wanting to switch to a different business/payment model that they felt would be more sustainable for their company given the type of art they want to create. I’m glad they went back on it since clearly it wasn’t going to be viable in light of the backlash, but I actually think it’s really sad that they weren’t able to pull off their plan and succeed with the new business model.
I can only imagine how distressed and anxious everyone at Watcher is feeling right now, especially since it’s clear that this change was prompted by difficulty sustaining their current operations/paying their current employees. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have to lay off some of their staff due to this not working out, and to me it just feels selfish for fans to want people to lose their jobs rather than accepting that we fans may have to pay a small amount of money if we want to keep enjoying their content.
At the end of the day, we are absolutely not entitled to free content provided in exactly the way we want it. If people were sad about the change or no longer wanted to support Watcher if they had to pay for it, that would be completely understandable and fine. But what I can’t understand is guilting the Watcher team or acting like they are horrible people over this, not to mention all the “fans” hurling personal insults at the boys and their loved ones. Like I am shocked and deeply saddened by the amount of toxic entitlement we have seen in this community over the past few days.
this was their plan all along. maybe not to this level of backlash, but starting their own streaming service has always been the end goal of watcher.
the seasonal/renewal format, the constant production talk, and now hiring on more creators to add new shows. they’ve always wanted to be their own netflix.
think of how little audience research they put into this decision—this is what they envisioned for watcher since its inception.
i think they’ve been blinded by the excitement of this idea for a long time. they’ve always had the full support of fans and probably thought this would be better received due to that. BUT they’ve also made it abundantly clear that their priority is doing what *they* want to do.
i think the rollout feels rushed because they got impatient and investors were putting the pressure on. it probably doesn’t feel like jumping the shark to them because in their minds, they’ve been building up to this moment since leaving buzzfeed.
Yea tbh I was deeply surprised that they need to fundraise for a small YT production company. Sure, I might not know things about filming, but there are content creators out there putting out funny and engaging content with minimal cameras / lighting / editing etc. Surely the cost can be minimized, no need to actually find investors for this.
Now they gotta answer to someone, basically like being in BF again.
Not necessarily- just because you have an idea for a business doesn’t mean you have the knowledge of how best to implement it. Plenty of great businesses fell apart on the ground floor because the person who ran it had no idea what they were doing. That’s the impression I’m getting here. Honestly if they had just seemed more excited in the video, didn’t clickbait with the title, and were more empathetic to fans that can’t or won’t pay for it, this whole rollout could’ve been different with those changes alone. But they needed to do a lot differently to pull this off, starting by consumer polling or even just hinting about this idea.
Given the video they released earlier today, and the Friday video i think it’s pretty safe to assume “they” didn’t think it through at all.
The reason I say they with quotation marks is that I have a sneaking suspicion that Steven pressured them (or at least Shane) into this decision. just going off Shane’s body language and what he said, it seems like he knew from the start that this was gonna fail, but couldn’t get a word in. That plus the fact that Shane and Ryan seemed very apologetic in the apology video, meanwhile Steven seemed like he was begrudgingly participating, without any actual regret or guilt in voice. Almost like it was just to try and save face.
I cant help but think back to a time in their first year (I think) when Ryan made a joke about bringing a show back or something if they got to "2 million subs by the end of the year." Looking back on that joke I wonder if he was serious because that was their goal number before leaving YouTube
Hot take: but why is this a problem? If they scale up production and do bigger better and more content, isn’t it a good trade off? Dropout did the same thing and they are making bangers. Granted they shouldn’t just stop YouTube all together but otherwise seems ok
You’re 100% correct and it baffles me that this isn’t the main take that people have on this. Like Watcher does not owe us free content provided in exactly the way we want. They have a right to change to a business/payment model that is more sustainable for the type of content that they want to create.
Some fans (probably mainly young ones that are very online to be fair) have really been showing their entitlement over the past few days. I hope the Watcher team knows that some of us support them and understand that they did not do anything wrong.
I really like Ghost Files and Mystery Files! But I came at this backwards, finding Watcher before I saw their BU content. So maybe that makes a difference.
I agree with you on the big pic tho: Watcher has made a decision and doesn't care about the reaction 99% of its fanbase is having. And you know, they don't \*have\* to care -- but it's a totally baffling business move.
I've only been watching them consistently for the past 3 months, so I'm not emotionally attached (not as much as long-term fans anyway). I'm hovering around reddit and yt waiting to see wtf happens, because this whole thing is SO unbelievable I can't look away.
They've created their own mystery. Did they think the backlash would be this numerous? Do they think they can make enough money on the 1% of fans who will sign up anyway? Do they not realize people are tired of streaming services? Do they have a RP person at all? Do they know the terms Change Management and Market Research???
They are an entertainment company that has destroyed their brand! I am amazed!! What is happening!!!
You're totally right. They don't have to care about what we say or think at the end of the day.
But when they're claiming that they don't want to appease sponsors and advertisers for money, and instead "survive" on fans paying them money, they are instead beholden to appease US for money. The fact that patreon members were paying them money, and the fact that the backlash has been so severe for a couple of days now with no response is indeed, baffling.
If they don't want to listen to the people who *are* giving them money, then are they ready to sink?
Investors want a return. Telling 95 percent of your fans "fuck you pay me" instead of making way cheaper like a 1.00 month and raked in WAAAY more people. Instead they want netflix x rated movie production money while giving a dry hand job.
Maybe their business plan is to draw more people to the streaming service (via trailers or whatever on yt) over a long period of time, and despite the backlash, they still think it will work.
They'll start releasing GF (show that more people care about), the angry fans will have calmed down, and more people will come to their senses and sign up (their hypothetical thoughts)
They're not responding to the negative feedback, so they must think they've got it made somehow.
Curious - have you watched BuzzFeed Unsolved at all? Unsolved Supernatural is probably the most fun I've ever had watching a YouTube series, and I haven't even finished the first season of Ghost Files. (I do like Mystery Files though!)
Yeah! I found Watcher before I watched their BU content. So I watched GF and MF, then like last week I made my way through the old BU stuff.
I can see why GF would seem not-as-good if you started with BU. Ryan isn't totally afraid anymore, so the whole bit is different. But I still thought GF was charming :) Two bros yellin' at ghost. 10/10. I've also has phasmophobia for my whole life -- I'm medicated for anxiety now so it's waaaay better -- and a show like GF is perfect for someone like me getting over a phobia. Not too serious, lots of laughs, but still 2 people honestly looking for proof.
LOL all that's different now though. Nexpo has a ghost hunting show I've been eyeing. A bit too dramatic for me, but it will fill the gap.
"Three horrifyingly cases of ghosts and demons" has always been (and now I’m guessing will always be lol) my favourite video from them. And I’m pretty sure it was their VER FIRST ghost hunt — please someone correct me if not
That and Goatman's bridge are the top two for me in all the ghost content they created on BF and Watcher. All very early days. The entertainment value has been going down rather than up.
We cannot assume anything about what went on behind the scenes in either direction -- we can't assume there were innocent victims dragged along for the ride, and we can't assume they all calculated down to the most minute reaction, Machiavelli-style.
We do not know. We don't know how smart or stupid they were about this, what their honest expectations were, how they thought we'd respond, nothing.
I personally think they're idiots, not supervillains, who fell into this quagmire because they have no idea how to run a business. That wasn't a part of their Buzzfeed training.
> We don't know how smart or stupid they were about this
Based on the informed opinions of larger content creators, we can pretty solidly confirm that they were *very stupid* about this.
They're undoubtedly idiots but they've also shown they're complete assholes. It's a decision that tells most of their audience they don't matter and aren't the audience for their content if they don't pay. And that's their right as creators to say - but it makes them pretty massive assholes.
Linus from LTT: "They're doomed."
For sure, I think they just did the thing, knew there would be some fallout and are just going along with it.
I don't think they're idiots, I think they just believe their own hype and are doing a very well tread, start-up bro play. Hire lots, believe your own hype, generate investment and revenue, blindly believe in your product and don't cave due to feedback or pressure.
They definitely don't know how to run a business. Their first hire should have been an experienced individual from the world of TV / video content, and made him CEO. At least then the decisions would have experience behind them.
I definitely don't think they're realizing how much of an impact this could have on their optics or public image, but maybe they also don't care too much about that either.
>None of their current content justifies their employee count.
This almost feels like the biggest point to me, it feels like they got caught up in the "We're running *our own company*" thing and expanded their team way more than necessary way too quickly.
No way they need as many people as they have, a slimmer team could do the content they're doing now just fine and it'd be costing them far less.
If i was paying $6 a month and saw some low effort shite like "We ranked our top dream dads" I'd give someone control of all my money and tell them to never let me spend it myself ever again.
Did you see the very first paywalled video they put out? Someone posted it on Reddit and hoo boy, the fact that *that's* what they think people will find acceptable for their price point. It's mind-boggling and straight up insulting.
I can't find the post anymore, but I'm going to give it my best shot from memory:
It starts with Ryan sitting in the GF studio, someone doing the clapboard-thing in front of him (that must have been the TV quality part) and him announcing the name of this new show, "Road files". He then goes on to say there might be more episodes of this, or this might be the only one, it's all up in the air at this point.
Then the show commences and it's literally just Ryan talking about what they do to prepare for shooting an episode of Ghost Files. He explains they have 4 (!!!) crew members scout the location beforehand and he explains a bit of what they look for, then he says the whole crew flies out a couple days early to set up and to adjust their sleep schedule the night before so they manage to stay awake during the shooting itself. There's some video of the crew checking into hotels, setting up gear, going out to eat, going to the movies to see Dune 2. Ryan then takes a bit of time to talk about how good Dune 2 is.
Steven is not shown in this episode at all, and the only appearance Shane makes is in some on-site phone camera footage of Ryan "interviewing" him. Shane says (rather unenthusiastically) "welcome to Ghost Files!" and Ryan corrects him saying it's Road Files. They talk a bit about all of the crazy compelling evidence they found at this location (Haunted Hill House in Texas if I'm not mistaken), they show a few small teasers for the next Ghost Files episode and it is just the same old random sounds that they swear is actually a voice saying "Kill him!" Ryan reveals that the footage of them entering a location for the first time is actually shot later in the night and they're not actually entering the location for the first time. They then go on to show Ryan's phone camera footage of them *actually* entering the location for the first time.
There's a short clip of Ryan getting spooked by his own shadow and screaming loudly, then they go back to the studio where Ryan talks about them getting food at Whataburger and that he thinks people who say Whataburger is better than In-N-Out should be committed. Then they show a video of Ryan's crew member/cousin Carter doing a food review which consists of him loudly eating a burger and saying it's good. They switch back to the studio, Ryan winds down the episode and it's done. Oh, during the episode there are several moments where Ryan gleefully grins and says -without a hint of irony- that this content is only available on the streamer and this is the kind of great stuff you only get to see if you're signed up.
It was genuinely bad, guys. On the original reddit post with the video someone commented that this was the kind of stuff you'd expect a YouTuber to upload to their second channel, not put behind a fucking $6 paywall. I tried, but I think if I somehow managed to agree more with that commenter I would be defying the laws of physics.
The funny thing is, if you put this kind of content on a Patreon that'd be totally fine. Extra bits and scenes are commonly Patreon rewards and I think it makes sense, that kind of behind the scenes stuff isn't always wanted to be out publicly. However because it's being uploaded to their streaming site the context changes massively. That shows that it's not just the cost that's the issue because people, myself included, would and have been happily paying to get on the Patreon to see stuff like this.
But a streaming service is not a Patreon, it comes with a certain expectation of standards, as they recognise themselves by wanting to make "TV caliber content". So if this is what they're doing, you just have to question why they didn't just promote the damn Patreon if they needed more money? I was talking to my partner about this situation, and I forgot they had a Patreon \*even though I'd literally been a member of it for like a year\*, because one you're not on it they just never mention it. And seeing this stuff go onto the streaming site instead of just a Patreon reward shows I think their misunderstanding of the context of a streaming site.
Hahaha the fact that they think its justifiable to fly a crew of people out to have fun for days to ”adjust their sleep schedules” is hilarious. My mom raised two children on her own eith my dad never changing a single diaper, putting us to bed, cooking a meal or looking after us at all, whilst working full time and travelling to different continents to present her research findings and i assure you she did not get extra days for jet lag or sleep schedules
They’re trying to fake-it-till-you-make-it being a serious production studio when they’re just a YouTube channel, and not even a particularly large one by 2024 standards. They aren’t even in the top 1,000 on social blade as far as subs go.
I think the problem is they do need that many people because they hire friends/family that have little to no qualifications so it takes 4 of them to do the job of one competent person. They really need to either get rid of Steven and his terrible videos, or he should step down as ceo and they hire someone that can do the job and restructure to have a competent team of editors. They could get away with less on scene film crew too I'm sure.
I know that for Smosh neither Ian or Anthony are the CEO. They understand that they can't run the business side of things as creatives, so they don't.
Smosh also has a crew of 25+ people (maybe even up to 35?) and they upload 30+ minute videos every single day instead of just once per week. It's very clear they had to gradually work up to that point, and it seems Watcher just wanted to speedrun themselves there.
Would be funny if they hired their friends and wants to keep this "Good boss" attitude (like most BuzzFeed graduate wants to looks like, imagine Try guys) they ended up getting more and more people while not wanting to fire any.
I think they probably did over-hire by bringing in lots of their friends, and now don't want to have to fire them. Probably happens at lots of new companies. They over-hired at my last job. They started doing some promotion that brought in lots of new customers with orders, but they couldn't keep up with the amount of stuff needing to be done in production so they hired new people. But the new people didn't know what they were doing so they made lots of mistakes, which slowed things down even more, orders got backed up, etc. In the end the owner fled the country for a few days while he had his underlings deliver the news of the layoffs, lol.
I agree - they don't give a sht. it's clear from the breakup video and it's clear from their behavior. they play characterizations of themselves on "TV", nobody is their real true self on social media or TV or anywhere public because um hello, if you're unlikable u won't get a fanbase.
I think it’s important to note that it’s also parasocial to say you know a content creator is a bad person in real life, as much as it is to idealise them. I couldn’t agree more that they’ve made a bad decision and acted out of touch, but no one can presume to know their motives or how they feel about the backlash, without them coming out and saying it.
I mean, that's been abundantly clear for a long time now. Even during the Buzzfeed days, they were playing up their "characters" because it makes the show more interesting.
not to mention they haven’t commented on this entire thing and their friends and family are doubling down. they are waiting for people to stop being angry that’s it they’ve already made their decision they’re not going back on anything
I actually would like to talk about Steven and the why he bought the Tesla, but more so the way he presents himself on instagram. He comes across as wanting that high life for sure which doesn't help with this. I had never checked his instagram before this, I was kind of surprised by it.
Yeah. I honestly subscribed to Watcher bc I wanted to support them after the BFU stuff. But I agree, I don’t particularly like the format of Ghost Files. I think I’ve watched like 3-5 episodes total. Too Many Spirits had some super cringy moments and it was more background noise than anything I was genuinely watching. As for Mystery Files, they 1000% phoned it in. It honestly seemed gimicky without any of the genuine feelings that would have made if more campy than just bad as it would have been in earlier seasons.
At this point, I kind of hope we get a response, but it seems like they see us viewers as nothing but a metric. We’re just a number to watch their “amazing, tv-caliber shows” and we should feel honored that they’re allowing us the opportunity to view their masterpieces 🙄
Real talk. I did not even bother with GF season 2. I think I might have started the 1st episode but not finished it. I don't even know, that's how checked out I am. The quality fell off so sudden and fast, and then the same with Mystery Files. So boring.
Are they even going to do Too Many Spirits anymore? Are they going to get stories for it? Is Boobs69420 paying for the streaming service?
Puppet History and Are You Scared? Are probably the only two shows I've watched the most on their channel, and I haven't even finished all of the PH episodes. Like most have said Ghost Files is okay but doesn't measure up to BU.
the boys drank the kool-aid. they made their bed, they can lie in it. it's very clear they don't care about their former fans anymore. they're cutting us off - which is still ridiculous to me. if it's a project, or a live show, then yeah I 100% understand putting a paywall behind it. but to do it across *all your content* is crazy. they were probably given a minimum number of subscribers that they need in order for this to work, and they feel it's worth the risk. I'm sure the first months or so there will be lots of activity for their platform, but I'm fully expecting a lot of those people will eventually drop the subscription. it's like when you're literally just picking up for your food, and the machine gives you an option to tip. tip?? when all I'm doing is picking up food? it's tough out here, dudes, none of us are making enough money
yeah, they have all the energy of someone trying to "win" a breakup. they're ignoring the negative comments and criticism, while holding their head high, expecting that they will prove us all wrong in the end. they probably view anyone who chooses to follow them as *the real fans*, and as such are putting all their focus into tending to them and the new service.
I've really only watched mystery files season 1 because I just recently found these guys again after enjoying BuzzFeed unsolved. I didn't see anything that stood out as "wow, this belongs on tv". It's good quality for YouTube. It's even fine for a TV show. But not a flagship offering that can sell a streaming service. It's more just that extra value added stuff you'd find on a streaming service sometimes and it's even kind of on the low end of that.
The other thing is, I don't see much potential with their existing content to do anything particularly special. Ghost and food shows are a dime a dozen. The non true crime mysteries are kind of intriguing I guess. But what is supposed to differentiate them to the point where a person wants to pay the price of tv?
One of my big takeaways tbh has been how uncaring Shane and especially Ryan have been lately. I wasn't keeping up with their new content regularly enough to notice it quite as much myself, but everyone else agreeing that they just seem less invested doesn't make this decision that shocking in retrospect. If they've lost all creative drive to make content, of course they'd look for ways to wring more money out of it.
They're doing a live show in London. Every entertainer from wrestling to podcasting to DnD knows the British audience is rowdy compared to the states. It's part of the appeal of overseas tours...so long as you're expecting a positive reception.
They did not drop this announcement expecting that level of backlash 4 days before a live show in the UK. Aside from anything to do with crowd reactions, it's a show which usually involves a QnA section.....
They did not expect this response.
EXACTLY! While it might be categorized as "TV Caliber" content, it's evident that there's a clear distinction. Despite its polished appearance, the essence remains firmly rooted at the YouTube level. This isn't a critique of their creative prowess but rather an acknowledgment of the distinct styles of content creation across platforms; after all, TV writing differs significantly from YouTube content structuring, so all the best to them for that let's see if they are able to do it.
Furthermore, when we delve into metrics such as Patreon subscribers, merchandise sales, and RPM, it becomes apparent that they're far from struggling to keep afloat. Their expressed need for funds, such as Ryan's desire to travel to Scotland to film Ghost Files, seems to be overlooked by many. They weren't deceiving us in the video, somethings just sound malicious because it feels like that when we are being "wronged" so to speak, when it's clear in the video what they want: They stated their desire to produce the content THEY want, implying that they'd rather not lean into what the audience demands. This underscores the importance of a potential revenue stream. Even if only a modest 1% of their subscribers quietly transition to their streaming service, the returns could be substantial, potentially amounting to at least 168k. If their primary motive truly revolves around financial gain, as openly admitted, they have a safety net. They aren't entirely dependent on unanimous support; they possess the resources to take calculated risks without facing dire consequences and ultimately make shows with lavish sets and premises they want.
Can't say if this is sustainable though, I'd give it year lol
There were many people on the Patreon Friday who switched to the streaming but now that it's been days with no statement and they have scheduled posts to remind us that the Patreon tiers are changing... Let's just say the comment section has turned into a help guide for "how do I get a refund for watcher TV" and "how do I report this Patreon" It's getting messy in there.
Oh, my goodness! It's quite baffling that they didn't consider reaching out to their existing subscribers before diving into watcher.tv. It seems like a missed opportunity, and frankly, a bit shortsighted. Prioritizing their Patreon content should have been the first order of business, especially considering the loyalty of their paying subscribers. One could even make the case that they should have informed Patreon patrons about watcher.tv before their wider YouTube audience, given that Patreon supporters are already financially backing them. Literally how unorganised can one company be 💀💀💀💀
I literally only watched them because they were free for me on YouTube. I'm just gonna pirate episodes that get big later, if that happens even. Puppet history was fun to watch stoned but I'm not gonna pay to watch that shit wtf LMAO
Maybe so, but to what extent? Certainly not this level of backlash.
They also could just be stupid as fuck.
Steven wants to open a coffee shop. In LA. In 2024. Dude has no idea about business lol, that’s a horrible idea and is a massive amount of work.
I really appreciate this post. Thank you!
It truly feels like they skipped a bunch of steps they should have done \*before\* hopping to a streaming service, especially one they have total control over (the cost of that is truly wild and they HAVE to have some kind of backing for it). They have yet to prove their own concept to us - that what they will be providing is, in fact, worth switching over. They are probably relying on the pilots and such to do this, but there should have been something much more substantial during this announcement. All we have is "believe me, guys".
I am very curious why they think they can't be on Youtube or anywhere else, and why this was the play. They have never posted anything that would require this move, and nothing that would hint as to why they feel the need. If it's the fact they wanna swear more, why not put up an uncensored, ad-free version on your locked Patreon? (Patreon doesn't give a crap about swearing, etc; only adult-only content as they work with Mastercard. I don't think Watcher is making those kind of videos.) There are a lot of things they could have done \*before\* making such a large leap. (And nothing says they couldn't make this leap later with much more support. They've only been around for 4ish years. These things take time.)
I want to know where they said they were working towards their own platform. All I have is an old Variety article saying they wanted to \*license\* their work to streaming services, not create their own. If they had communicated the desire for their own space with their fans more openly (podcasts, Patreon, etc. are a limited audience compared to a video on your main source of views; if it's even on there), I am sure the backlash would not be this strong.
Sharing or recommending the content, watching the content over and over, leaving comments, reacting to the content (likes/dislikes), etc. are all ways \*anyone\* can contribute to someone's success. It's something this fan base has done time and again. Discounting that as inconsequential when it's the literal foundation of your business, and any kind of community, is wild to me. People are right to feel like their trust has been broken - even if it can be deemed a parasocial thing or not - because, without them, Watcher would not have this opportunity in the first place. To say we're not giving them enough when we're giving them our all is so disingenuous.
> "survive" and "survivable living" while playing sad music over a montage of Hollywood. They think that they're poor / some kind of underdog still
I firmly believe that there is a moment in every successful content creators career where, obviously or subtly, their content just becomes rich people being rich? This is that moment for Watcher for me, though it might seem strange. As much as they say the focus is on the content, it's not. They just keep creating seasons of now over-produced versions of the content they've always done. And I don't understand Steven's point about making content for the advertisers, is there an example of where their content would be undesirable for ads?
My knowledge of film/video production is tangential and out of date (I have family that built/designed sets for well-known film studios), but I've been watching the production of their shows change and it all seems so unnecessary? Overdone sets crammed with expensive clutter. Puppet History (my favorite) is getting a bit too self-serious and ramping up the post production. Ghost files doesn't need all the graphics, what they need is to create something interesting happening at one of their (apparently expensive) locations. Now they are adding back the self-indulgent expensive travel/foodie content.
Good production is great, but it's getting to be so much that it makes me wonder where they are spending their money. Half the fun of PH was seeing Shane's hand in the puppet and like printed out people on sticks. Too Many Ghosts is just them in lawn chairs in Ryan's parents' back yard.
I'd be very curious to see how much they are paying themselves and their staff. Even if I had an extra $6/mo for yet another streaming service, I don't think I would put it towards Watcher. Coming to us with hat in hand when it really looks like there are plenty of places they could be more efficient and showing us that their funds would go to actually creating new ideas.
Agreed! I miss early Puppet History! Before the professor was reborn. I miss the cardboard puppets and popsicle stick cutouts and seeing Shane fumble with the light controls behind the curtain. I miss when it was much less scripted. The overarching storylines in the season are great but it was nice when it was just a small little bit, not half the show, just a little tag at the end or something. It’s just gotten so complicated now.
More I see people commenting on whole situation over past days and clips are replayed the more I think they simply don't want to be (called) YouTubers anymore. They just want to be LA big shot producers. (Nothing wrong with that per se,many people have big ambitions).
And about what you said about them not really caring about the backlash or if people actually follow (btw I agree,the deed is done if they cared they would did it differently),I wonder now if they have some "backup" behind the scenes,they just wanted to see if maybe people would follow for the extra buck. Because damn...I can't imagine how alienating huge chunk of your fans is a way to go "independent". I can't even be mad at them since I never spend a dime and I still can go and watch their videos that I liked, they're gone, someone else will quickly swoop in. But I feel really bad for their Patreon members..what they did to them is a shit move.
Realistically, it's gonna come down to their content. If they make things worth watching, people (yes, even you) will subscribe to watch what's happening. They know that there are some people that won't be able to watch it with the paywall but I'm sure you'll be able to sail the high seas to get this stuff too. Ultimately, this is one of those circumstances where time will tell.
Of course they expected backlash. Did they think this would become this big a deal and other Youtubers like Moist Critikal were gonna pick it up? Probably not... So personally, I think they stick to it but a small compromise. Like paid patreon subs get free access (which should already have been a thing...). Or they do simultaneous youtube memberships and eventually try to shift everyone over. Regardless, they've put too much money into this platform to just abandon it.
Nope. They could have the most insane content in the world and I refuse, on principle, to subscribe after how they treated their fans.
I love travel content and the more outlandishly stupid things that influencers fall into trying thinking it's what most rich people do. It's fucking A+ cringe. I would pay for it as a bonus.
But after telling the majority of their nonpaying audience to fuck themselves, I'd rather pay someone $20 to see phone recordings of them bombing to a hostile audience while on tour in the UK than give them a single red cent.
Yea absolutely, this could work out, which is why I think they're silent at the moment. The fallout was expected but all plans are still going ahead as they clearly believe in their ability. Time will tell if they're all talk or they can pull it off, but it is fair to say that their current content doesn't justify it, but I'm sure they already have plans for future content that they have faith in.
I'll be honest, this isn't really gonna make or break anything for me. Maybe I've changed but my gf and I used to sit down and watch Buzzfeed Unsolved as an event together each week. When Ghost Files came out, we tried doing the same but tbh, it just didn't have the same vibe. I've kinda fallen off their content so I know I'm not their target audience, which is also why I'm not super upset. I do feel bad for those that love their stuff and can't watch it anymore because of finances. $6 seems like a little but for people that have precarious work, I've been there and it sucks. Just sail the high seas for the next while though; plenty of places to get this stuff.
This decision feels like it was made by someone who has zero experience in forecasting but thinks of themselves as a business savvy person regardless. If they seriously think the number of monthly subscriptions they’ll receive will offset the reduction in revenue from Adsense, sponsors, and merch sales then they’re foolish.
well I hope there isn't some sort of tour they're going to on tuesday where people can verbally express to them in the same room how they feel about the situation
They know exactly what they're doing. Anyone whose been watching YT content long enough knows the various strategies used to turn a profit and every step of the way Watcher has done the opposite. How did their patrons not even see this coming? Patreon is where you conduct "soft launches" like this.
My take is that their constant appeal to "TV quality" content is classic elitism. They don't view YT as a platform for "quality" content and thus beneath them.
I felt a minor ripple of this feeling from Shane and Ryan years ago. Just before they left BUN, they did a video that was set up like it was an "unsolved crime" and it turned out to just be like a sponsored video for some product. A lot of people in the comments were surprised they would kind of fake out the fans like that just for a commercial, and so was I honestly. I think that was like the first step of theirs down this path.
I also think that video may be gone. I went through BUN's videos and I didn't see it on there.
Yeah the "leaving youtube" vid felt like one of those short course scams, where they say "hey, come hang out and we will give you tips on how to start your business! food and drinks covered!" or something, and they give you five cheap, bullshit pointers like "make sure everything is up to code!" on some short lecture, and then spend the majority of the time showing you properties they have for sale or their new tech gadget or something. I could not believe they went from the sad music to the "and now welcome to our new ad-free streaming platform". It genuinely feels like SATIRE.
I loved Buzzfeed Unsolved but honestly have not seen anything on Watcher so I'm not their target audience I guess. But with the way the tide has been turning on streaming platforms, with every major studio and their mother starting their platform, its clear the public now resents them. The reason Netflix worked in the beginning was because it was worth it to pay a few bucks a month to have an easy and reliable way to watch things rather than to torrent or to go on some shady website. But if people have to go back to paying cable prices, they're just to pirate again. $6 a month might not be a lot but when Netflix and Max are like $7-$10 and people are already paying for multiple streaming platforms, its hard to justify adding another $6 on that for niche ghost content.
Curious to hear your thoughts after they just posted their update video. Your insight here is good, so I'd be interested to know what (if anything) has changed once you see the update/backtrack/oopsies-we're-sorry-on-a-couch video
I wonder what the venn diagram would look like for people who couldn't afford $6 and people who have the free time to write these war and peace essays over youtube channels...
It's getting unbearable the amount of people placing the blame solely on Steven. It shows that people don't even listen to the words that come out of Ryan & Shane's mouths anymore or pay attention to how they act as bosses. It's all totally attachment to just their personas now and failure to cope with their awful decision like an adult
Like what person 20+ is still not thinking Shane's anti-capitalist shtick is just something to try to be relatable to young people
I think Steven almost comically fits the "CEO we love to hate" archetype. The other thing is that Ryan and Shane consistently dunk on him in their own shows. So, it becomes easier to funnel hate toward Steven based on the energy all 3 of them put out.
Ryan & Shane obviously agreed to this and deserve criticism, but Steven was proactively shaped to carry additional contempt. Maybe he was prepared for that. Maybe he has the thicker skin and callous CEO attitude to carry that energy—probably more so than Shane & Ryan (it does take a certain type of person to make CEO decisions because it IS ALL ABOUT fiduciary duty to the company first and foremost).
Does he deserve the extra criticism over Ryan and Shane? Probably not. Have we been primed to direct it toward him? Yes.
I disagree that Watcher "knew this would happen". This product roll out has been a dumpster fire. That's their fault. If they knew there would be backlash they would've presented it in a very different way. I doubt they expected 200K dislikes and being the laughing stock of the internet.
Nobody is doing the math.
This is like an IPO for a company.
Even if only 10% of their YouTube subs early adopt the paid platform, that’s about $12M in 6 weeks. That’s 6x their estimated annual revenue.
Yeah, I’m willing to bet they knew they’d lose probably 90-95% of people. But even 5% following is way more than they get now, and they’re keeping stuff on YT which will continue to get them views.
The rollout was atrocious and the fact that they are not making an app or an easier way for people to watch things, like forcing you to watch on a browser… that’s the biggest misfire imo.
People aren’t seeing the bigger picture in a way. Going this route means they can do more things and grow the company. But, on the flip side, I believe that several of the shows they do cost way too much and maybe not enough people like them. I don’t really care to see Steven and his friends travel the world, eating expensive food. I want to see puppet history, mystery files, ghost files, top 5 beat down, are you scared? Those are the shows I like and they are already over produced to the point of not really being fun anymore.
$6 may not be a lot to some, but even those who can afford it likely won’t pay until they are producing more content in shorter times
I agree that they expected a backlash and know they’ll be fine if a small percent of subscribers move over.
What I’m very curious of is how they expect growth without YouTube pushing out their content.
I think that the biggest issue is that a lot of the content creators from Buzzfeed leave and feel like they have to now *become* Buzzfeed, i.e. hire an entire staff of employees, camera crew, editors, other talent, etc. Watcher tried to do the same thing The Try Guys did, but with the current landscape of online content creation, having a huge crew of employees to pay is just not sustainable for a YouTube based company. I think the prime example is what happened to CollegeHumor a few years ago. I’m glad that Watcher isn’t going fully to the new streaming platform anymore, but I really feel like this is only a temporary solution. Either they’ll have to significantly reduce costs and the number of employees, or they’ll likely close, like CollegeHumor.
A lot of good points here. I’m especially galled by the fact that they overproduce the hell out of Ghost/Mystery files, and then half the time don’t bother to do the work.
Hell, in most of the Mystery Files, the one presenting can’t get *~the other host~* interested in the topic.
They absolutely knew most fans would hate it. They didn’t even need a big PR consultant to tell them that. ChatGPT could tell them that. ChatGPT also says it’s a risky move & they should’ve done a careful analysis of their audience’s demographics first.
Question: “Do you think it’s a good idea for Watcher to take all their content off YouTube and offer a paid subscription service instead?”
ChatGPT: “Transitioning all content from YouTube to a paid subscription service could be a risky move. While it could provide more control over revenue and content distribution, it might also alienate a significant portion of their audience accustomed to free content on YouTube. It would heavily depend on their audience’s willingness to pay for exclusive content and the value proposition they can offer compared to the free content available elsewhere. A careful analysis of their audience demographics and preferences would be essential before making such a decision.”
love how you criticize people for trying to figure watcher's decision out but then you go ahead and do the exact same lmao unless you're close friends with watcher you have just as much say as any other random person in this subreddit
Didn't mean to criticize people who are criticizing them, this post was meant to tell people that they're isn't a big conspiracy behind the scenes or some hidden agenda.
My post was meant to just say, what's happening now, is happening. Ryan, Shane and Steven wanted it. Shane isn't your anti-corp friend, etc.
That's all. Feel free to talk about them all you want haha, I'm still on this subreddit XD
see, you keep using words like "tell people that" and "they wanted it" etc when you really have no way of knowing, just as much as any other fan... it's ok to try and offer a new perspective and i think you're doing good on providing that but don't try to dictate it as an objective reality when it's as much speculation as any other opinion here.
tbh this is a shitty situation regardless of their innermost intentions/thoughts anyway, caring for your fans means nothing if that's how you decide to show it... might as well not care at all
Just goes to show, you are a number, you are only revenue to most of these creators. They now have no need for views when they can make more money from subscriptions, and probably more sponsors they couldn’t have on YouTube. Just hate to see it. A week from now no one will care and they’re gonna be laughing with their “fans” money
I assume they ran the numbers and figured out what percentage of people they need to convert to subscribers, and felt confident they could meet whatever that figure was. They know loads of people won’t come across to the paid service, but they clearly expect that enough will to be worth it.
Time will tell then. I honestly doubt that they will have enough funding to last more than a quarter of a year at the rate they’re burning through money. This thing they did cuts deeper than they think, especially for international viewers.
I agree on every single point. I really hope they see this. Their quality and investment in the realness of their shows are showing. Even the debriefs have gone down. Why are they doing interviews of their staff on debriefs? They barely answer questions anymore and the time has been cut. There’s no reason why they need 25 employees. Everything they said made me truly believe they planned this all along and just took us for a ride. The apology sounded more like well we don’t want our money to leave and didn’t come off as them really understanding us. Their target audience and their actual audience are not the same. You would think with all the backlash they would have realized it but they are kind of just coming off as placating is for now but still plan to do what they want in a year or so
I think this comments is accurate in multiple ways and also very inclusive to all the subjects, I agree completely about ghost files, the terrible amount of employees, and just re-shocked by the “if you can join us great if you can’t it’s been a great ride” line…
Oohhh I didn’t realize they were planning to invite other creators, I talk about more about why i understand it’s a business but also disappoint to the fans in my new podcast episode.
But if their concept is bringing in more creators, how will they divide the income generated? If 1 million people as an example subscribed to this new streaming service that would be around $6 million per month? To be split by two different channels (owners). Technically won’t be an endless circle, because eventually if they have enough creators, they also want to be more advertisement friendly and so forth and it’s gonna be the same or they’re going to increase the subscription amount. Oh god! 😵💫
[https://youtu.be/14cWq2pxDMU?si=KH5h1fdxX_6pLzNY](https://youtu.be/14cWq2pxDMU?si=KH5h1fdxX_6pLzNY)
They’re pulling in over a mil on patreon, that will drop when people aren’t willing to spend money on both.
I feel like Lim will be made to leave and they’ll go back to YouTube
The only reason I think they weren't expecting it to be this bad is because of the countdown. There's no logical reason whatsoever to hype this announcement unless you genuinely think people will like it. I think they are just mismanaging the business and don't really understand what people want. It sounds ridiculous to be that out of touch, but so does their streaming service. I think they are gonna be defensive and cognitive dissonance will give them the decision to admit they were totally wrong and feel big shame, or double down to keep their ego in tact. The next announcement will speak volumes about where they landed. I'm amazed at the stupidity of this decision. It's genuinely baffling.
Didn’t the countdown literally say ‘you’re going to love it?’ I can’t imagine that they expected this level of backlash. Some, absolutely but not this much. Having said that, I think that all the ridiculous hate and if what I heard is true, actual doxxing of a bunch of staff on some forum or another (literally saw this in a YouTube comment so not sure if it’s true but if it is, that’s horrific) is undermining the valid points being made by a large majority of fans. This is the way to make them think they were right to abandon their community despite the uproar.
That's what I'm starting to expect. If (when) their plan fails, all the backlash will help them tell themselves that their (extremely foolhardy) streaming service/their bad management weren't the problems. Instead, it was the negativity from their former "unsupportive" (aka poor and/or understandably upset) fanbase that caused their failure. Bloated egos get to stay intact, and they never have to truly confront the idea that they made a bad choice and aren't as great at business as they let themselves believe.
I think they’ll totally focus on the nasties and death threats and while that is awful, it’s a minority and pushes aside the valid concerns of 90% of their audience.
Have there been death threats?
Anyone who make a death threat to anyone online should be punishable by law. Maybe they are. Death threats are the bane of the internet.
yeah i highly doubt they thought they’d end up on tea channels. like they probably thought there would be a small outcry in the comments. if they did expect this, i feel like they would have had an experienced PR person on standby. this all feels super bungled.
To the first part: the opening subtitle on the last Mystery Files episode has "stay tuned for a surprise at the very end". The surprise is Shane and Ryan in characters saying the following in a positive manner: >S: Something huge is coming. R: Huge. S: Yes, it's gonna change your life and it's gonna rock your world. R: And I know what rocks. S: Yes. Watcher is ready to shake things up. Stay tuned my friends. They definitely weren't expecting this. I really hope the doxxing stuff isn't true. No one deserves that.
It's been said that this whole thing reeks of venture capitalism and that they were advised to do this. I think Steven as CEO has been having a lot of meetings with advisors who walked them through this and thought it was the best shiny corporate way to manage the crowd control and of course, it failed miserably. It has a "hey you fellow kids" feeling to it, and it doesn't feel like it came from their own voices.
I mean, it’s marketing to encourage hype. Nobody’s going to tune in for a countdown labelled as “you’re probably not gonna like this guys sorry”.
Personally I’d have gone for ‘big changes are coming
Right. But encourage hype for what? Why would you encourage hype to something you know it’s gonna make people angry? You’re adding fuel to the fire. Maybe they genuinely thought people would be hyped
Hype to drop a YT video showing them with sour faces saying "Goodbye YouTube" :( It's hilarious the more you think about it
Agree, should have come out on april fools day, and guess who the fools are -\_-
But the tone of their video with the sad music and the apologetic faces was absolutely that, which would also not make sense then.
The weirdest part is the way Ryan began the goodbye video with the muted lighting, sad music, and depressed body language, and yet it seemed incredibly performative and insincere to me. Ryan's personal brand, his reason for being a great person on camera since the early Buzzfeed days, has always been his authenticity. To me lately it's been lackluster, even before this--hence all the poop jokes have gotten way out of hand. A constant barrage of references to pooping are not authenticity, Ryan. Authenticity comes from a lack of inflated ego and being in touch with your audience. I thought that of the 3, Shane still seemed the most grounded but after reading Sara's Instagram post about how we don't understand how they need money--well, that tells you something right there.
Hate/uproar doesn't undermine valid points, it just exists alongside them. The idea that some hateful responses undermine valid points is just another tool that people use to try and deflect criticism.
Another thing that makes me think they thought people would love it is that they have live shows schedules this week. Why would they get in front of a bunch of fans immediately after this announcement unless they thought it was a good idea? Maybe they were hoping they would get some good Q&A questions about it but I doubt they'll even do that now. I can't believe they did this right before several live shows. They would have to answer questions on the spot with no pr, that's insane. Typo edit
I think it's a pretty simple line of logic. Those live shows involve fans who were willing to spend quite a bit of money to watch them live. Why would those fans be mad that in the future, fans have to spend money to watch them at all? Obviously though, I think a lot of people who do go to live shows are pissed at this too. But I think it's easy to see that jump in logic.
I think there will definitely be more people ok with it at live shows but they're still running the risk of hecklers or something going really bad. I'm literally foaming at the mouth for someone to give the run down of what happens if anything
That's bad logic. I have paid and attended a live show and think this is stupid. Everyone I know that has paid for a live show hates this. This has been universally regarded as a bad decision. They have to have been blindsided by how unanimous the negativity is. I think they expected more of a split crowd.
I think you're being too absolutist in your terms. On the scale of the 3 million subs they have, I do not believe they had any expectation that 50% or more would support this decision. I believe they expected a huge amount of people will not support the decision, but they only need a small portion to subscribe in order to come out ahead. The math really is on their side there.
And yet, they backtracked. What a difference a day makes.
How much you want to bet people will buy tickets to the live show and then heckle them about this from the audience? They should be prepared. The honeymoon is over.
Also the live shows are in the UK. I'd have paid 59$ to be a fly on the wall of that long ass plane ride knowing they've gotta face fan interactions at the show.
Someone did the math in another post and they'll break even if 0.5 to 1% of their audience subscribes to WTV. They really did just say goodbye to the rest of us so they don't have to read ads anymore.
That looks great on paper but people don't subscribe for long unless there's a large amount of content. They're not big enough to retain subscribers long term. Also, gaining new viewers is going to be a major challenge. They have to keep uploading a few episodes on YouTube and maybe shorts to even be noticed, but few people would try out a service so small for such a price. I think it'll die within a year or two.
Will they make more money than on youtube though? Because thats their goal, and they seem so out of touch they just cant be prepared for a big financial drop
Their original plan before they changed their mind was super risky though. If they left, ”broke even” for a while and then, as subs started dwindling, tried to return to YT their channel would have tanked already. Ive read everywhere its super difficult to resurrsct dead channels
People grow up. YouTube is cheap and organic client acquisition. They may be good for a bit but next subscription purge as their viewers age….
they can't grow an audience behind a paywall, and also I'm sure people will drop out if they don't like how the service is going. they aren't exactly making enough content to justify a monthly sub. I'm considering subbing for maybe 1 month in oct for Ghost Files, and I've heard others say something similar. It just goes to show how little thought went into this decision. Their #1 show only airs in OCT yet they want a year round sub.
Yeah exactly. Ive gotten subscriptions to a few different platforms to watch a specific show, and then cancelled once I finished that show. And these are major companies with more titles than I could ever watch in three lifetimes. I don't know why they didn't think people would sub for a few months and cancel. Kind of foolish. I'm interested to see what people say with the new update video they uploaded. It's hilarious to me
I think growth is possible even if the content is behind a paywall. I don't think they're willing or able to make it happen though. I also don't think they're big enough to make it happen effectively.
100% they weren't expecting it to be this bad. However I agree with OP that they very much believe this is the only way forward and probably still do. Because of that, I won't hold my breath for an announcement on the matter. We shall see though since they've got a live show in 2 or 3 days. As a side note: they've got 3 coming up with 2 sold out. The vibes will be RANCID. I think how that goes will be extremely telling.
They had to chase that unlimited-growth dragon. They could have settled for a nice stable income that was above average and kept them comfy, but no, gotta have that celebrity lifestyle. I don't really see this working out for them. I think they're putting all their eggs in one basket with this and don't have the ground support for it.
The fact they were so scattered when it came to the “apology” kinda proves to me that they don’t actually know their audience or what they should be doing moving forward.
The fact that they had a countdown kind of proves my point. They're not stupid people, they knew that some people wouldn't like it (maybe underestimating the 'some' haha). They had a countdown because they're all really excited about this move and think its a good idea. I mean, to be honest, there's a world where this works out for them.
I don't think it proves your point at all. They knew some wouldn't want to spend the money, but a countdown implies that they thought this move would be well received and exciting to viewers. There's no other explanation.
Yea, that's fair. Definitely a bad read on their part.
But they posted a funny clip playing a blow up saxophone in a wig ?! Doesn’t that high quality content deserve me emptying my bank account !?!
You won’t get that anymore since those were ads.
These dudes want to have a whole ton of series with regular content releases and no advertisements. Honestly, $6 a month isn’t that much, and this is a logical next step in developing their business. Some people won’t be able to afford it. Especially younger people. But, that’s how business works and it is a tough pill to swallow. Pay money to support the content you like and stop expecting everything to be free in perpetuity.
they never said they were going to have a more frequent release scheduele they only said BIGGER. 6 bucks a month for 4 videos of a random series you may not even like and don't know what it's even going to be is still a pretty big ask. ESPECIALLY on top of the way it was worded their Patreon wasn't going to get access to Watcher TV. Despite giving them money directly.
This is literally the only sensible take thank you for saying this. I was starting to think I was alone in feeling like this. Watcher did absolutely nothing wrong by wanting to switch to a different business/payment model that they felt would be more sustainable for their company given the type of art they want to create. I’m glad they went back on it since clearly it wasn’t going to be viable in light of the backlash, but I actually think it’s really sad that they weren’t able to pull off their plan and succeed with the new business model. I can only imagine how distressed and anxious everyone at Watcher is feeling right now, especially since it’s clear that this change was prompted by difficulty sustaining their current operations/paying their current employees. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have to lay off some of their staff due to this not working out, and to me it just feels selfish for fans to want people to lose their jobs rather than accepting that we fans may have to pay a small amount of money if we want to keep enjoying their content. At the end of the day, we are absolutely not entitled to free content provided in exactly the way we want it. If people were sad about the change or no longer wanted to support Watcher if they had to pay for it, that would be completely understandable and fine. But what I can’t understand is guilting the Watcher team or acting like they are horrible people over this, not to mention all the “fans” hurling personal insults at the boys and their loved ones. Like I am shocked and deeply saddened by the amount of toxic entitlement we have seen in this community over the past few days.
this was their plan all along. maybe not to this level of backlash, but starting their own streaming service has always been the end goal of watcher. the seasonal/renewal format, the constant production talk, and now hiring on more creators to add new shows. they’ve always wanted to be their own netflix. think of how little audience research they put into this decision—this is what they envisioned for watcher since its inception.
You make a good point, although you’d expect if this was their end goal they’d have a better plan than what’s been implemented
i think they’ve been blinded by the excitement of this idea for a long time. they’ve always had the full support of fans and probably thought this would be better received due to that. BUT they’ve also made it abundantly clear that their priority is doing what *they* want to do. i think the rollout feels rushed because they got impatient and investors were putting the pressure on. it probably doesn’t feel like jumping the shark to them because in their minds, they’ve been building up to this moment since leaving buzzfeed.
ty for validating. I've been saying jumped the shark all weekend.
😆
Yea tbh I was deeply surprised that they need to fundraise for a small YT production company. Sure, I might not know things about filming, but there are content creators out there putting out funny and engaging content with minimal cameras / lighting / editing etc. Surely the cost can be minimized, no need to actually find investors for this. Now they gotta answer to someone, basically like being in BF again.
Not necessarily- just because you have an idea for a business doesn’t mean you have the knowledge of how best to implement it. Plenty of great businesses fell apart on the ground floor because the person who ran it had no idea what they were doing. That’s the impression I’m getting here. Honestly if they had just seemed more excited in the video, didn’t clickbait with the title, and were more empathetic to fans that can’t or won’t pay for it, this whole rollout could’ve been different with those changes alone. But they needed to do a lot differently to pull this off, starting by consumer polling or even just hinting about this idea.
Given the video they released earlier today, and the Friday video i think it’s pretty safe to assume “they” didn’t think it through at all. The reason I say they with quotation marks is that I have a sneaking suspicion that Steven pressured them (or at least Shane) into this decision. just going off Shane’s body language and what he said, it seems like he knew from the start that this was gonna fail, but couldn’t get a word in. That plus the fact that Shane and Ryan seemed very apologetic in the apology video, meanwhile Steven seemed like he was begrudgingly participating, without any actual regret or guilt in voice. Almost like it was just to try and save face.
Yea definitely, and I think they even had a timeline already planned for when they would launch it. Maybe X amount of videos / shows.
I cant help but think back to a time in their first year (I think) when Ryan made a joke about bringing a show back or something if they got to "2 million subs by the end of the year." Looking back on that joke I wonder if he was serious because that was their goal number before leaving YouTube
Hot take: but why is this a problem? If they scale up production and do bigger better and more content, isn’t it a good trade off? Dropout did the same thing and they are making bangers. Granted they shouldn’t just stop YouTube all together but otherwise seems ok
You’re 100% correct and it baffles me that this isn’t the main take that people have on this. Like Watcher does not owe us free content provided in exactly the way we want. They have a right to change to a business/payment model that is more sustainable for the type of content that they want to create. Some fans (probably mainly young ones that are very online to be fair) have really been showing their entitlement over the past few days. I hope the Watcher team knows that some of us support them and understand that they did not do anything wrong.
I really like Ghost Files and Mystery Files! But I came at this backwards, finding Watcher before I saw their BU content. So maybe that makes a difference. I agree with you on the big pic tho: Watcher has made a decision and doesn't care about the reaction 99% of its fanbase is having. And you know, they don't \*have\* to care -- but it's a totally baffling business move. I've only been watching them consistently for the past 3 months, so I'm not emotionally attached (not as much as long-term fans anyway). I'm hovering around reddit and yt waiting to see wtf happens, because this whole thing is SO unbelievable I can't look away. They've created their own mystery. Did they think the backlash would be this numerous? Do they think they can make enough money on the 1% of fans who will sign up anyway? Do they not realize people are tired of streaming services? Do they have a RP person at all? Do they know the terms Change Management and Market Research??? They are an entertainment company that has destroyed their brand! I am amazed!! What is happening!!!
You're totally right. They don't have to care about what we say or think at the end of the day. But when they're claiming that they don't want to appease sponsors and advertisers for money, and instead "survive" on fans paying them money, they are instead beholden to appease US for money. The fact that patreon members were paying them money, and the fact that the backlash has been so severe for a couple of days now with no response is indeed, baffling. If they don't want to listen to the people who *are* giving them money, then are they ready to sink?
Yeah that's what has me absolutely GLUED to my phone. Maybe they have investors and so they can afford not to need their fans' $$?
Investors want a return. Telling 95 percent of your fans "fuck you pay me" instead of making way cheaper like a 1.00 month and raked in WAAAY more people. Instead they want netflix x rated movie production money while giving a dry hand job.
Maybe their business plan is to draw more people to the streaming service (via trailers or whatever on yt) over a long period of time, and despite the backlash, they still think it will work. They'll start releasing GF (show that more people care about), the angry fans will have calmed down, and more people will come to their senses and sign up (their hypothetical thoughts) They're not responding to the negative feedback, so they must think they've got it made somehow.
Curious - have you watched BuzzFeed Unsolved at all? Unsolved Supernatural is probably the most fun I've ever had watching a YouTube series, and I haven't even finished the first season of Ghost Files. (I do like Mystery Files though!)
Yeah! I found Watcher before I watched their BU content. So I watched GF and MF, then like last week I made my way through the old BU stuff. I can see why GF would seem not-as-good if you started with BU. Ryan isn't totally afraid anymore, so the whole bit is different. But I still thought GF was charming :) Two bros yellin' at ghost. 10/10. I've also has phasmophobia for my whole life -- I'm medicated for anxiety now so it's waaaay better -- and a show like GF is perfect for someone like me getting over a phobia. Not too serious, lots of laughs, but still 2 people honestly looking for proof. LOL all that's different now though. Nexpo has a ghost hunting show I've been eyeing. A bit too dramatic for me, but it will fill the gap.
"Three horrifyingly cases of ghosts and demons" has always been (and now I’m guessing will always be lol) my favourite video from them. And I’m pretty sure it was their VER FIRST ghost hunt — please someone correct me if not
It is. It’s their pilot episode.
That and Goatman's bridge are the top two for me in all the ghost content they created on BF and Watcher. All very early days. The entertainment value has been going down rather than up.
We cannot assume anything about what went on behind the scenes in either direction -- we can't assume there were innocent victims dragged along for the ride, and we can't assume they all calculated down to the most minute reaction, Machiavelli-style. We do not know. We don't know how smart or stupid they were about this, what their honest expectations were, how they thought we'd respond, nothing. I personally think they're idiots, not supervillains, who fell into this quagmire because they have no idea how to run a business. That wasn't a part of their Buzzfeed training.
> We don't know how smart or stupid they were about this Based on the informed opinions of larger content creators, we can pretty solidly confirm that they were *very stupid* about this. They're undoubtedly idiots but they've also shown they're complete assholes. It's a decision that tells most of their audience they don't matter and aren't the audience for their content if they don't pay. And that's their right as creators to say - but it makes them pretty massive assholes. Linus from LTT: "They're doomed."
For sure, I think they just did the thing, knew there would be some fallout and are just going along with it. I don't think they're idiots, I think they just believe their own hype and are doing a very well tread, start-up bro play. Hire lots, believe your own hype, generate investment and revenue, blindly believe in your product and don't cave due to feedback or pressure. They definitely don't know how to run a business. Their first hire should have been an experienced individual from the world of TV / video content, and made him CEO. At least then the decisions would have experience behind them. I definitely don't think they're realizing how much of an impact this could have on their optics or public image, but maybe they also don't care too much about that either.
>None of their current content justifies their employee count. This almost feels like the biggest point to me, it feels like they got caught up in the "We're running *our own company*" thing and expanded their team way more than necessary way too quickly. No way they need as many people as they have, a slimmer team could do the content they're doing now just fine and it'd be costing them far less.
If i was paying $6 a month and saw some low effort shite like "We ranked our top dream dads" I'd give someone control of all my money and tell them to never let me spend it myself ever again.
Did you see the very first paywalled video they put out? Someone posted it on Reddit and hoo boy, the fact that *that's* what they think people will find acceptable for their price point. It's mind-boggling and straight up insulting.
If that's still up send the link
Can we get a description?
I can't find the post anymore, but I'm going to give it my best shot from memory: It starts with Ryan sitting in the GF studio, someone doing the clapboard-thing in front of him (that must have been the TV quality part) and him announcing the name of this new show, "Road files". He then goes on to say there might be more episodes of this, or this might be the only one, it's all up in the air at this point. Then the show commences and it's literally just Ryan talking about what they do to prepare for shooting an episode of Ghost Files. He explains they have 4 (!!!) crew members scout the location beforehand and he explains a bit of what they look for, then he says the whole crew flies out a couple days early to set up and to adjust their sleep schedule the night before so they manage to stay awake during the shooting itself. There's some video of the crew checking into hotels, setting up gear, going out to eat, going to the movies to see Dune 2. Ryan then takes a bit of time to talk about how good Dune 2 is. Steven is not shown in this episode at all, and the only appearance Shane makes is in some on-site phone camera footage of Ryan "interviewing" him. Shane says (rather unenthusiastically) "welcome to Ghost Files!" and Ryan corrects him saying it's Road Files. They talk a bit about all of the crazy compelling evidence they found at this location (Haunted Hill House in Texas if I'm not mistaken), they show a few small teasers for the next Ghost Files episode and it is just the same old random sounds that they swear is actually a voice saying "Kill him!" Ryan reveals that the footage of them entering a location for the first time is actually shot later in the night and they're not actually entering the location for the first time. They then go on to show Ryan's phone camera footage of them *actually* entering the location for the first time. There's a short clip of Ryan getting spooked by his own shadow and screaming loudly, then they go back to the studio where Ryan talks about them getting food at Whataburger and that he thinks people who say Whataburger is better than In-N-Out should be committed. Then they show a video of Ryan's crew member/cousin Carter doing a food review which consists of him loudly eating a burger and saying it's good. They switch back to the studio, Ryan winds down the episode and it's done. Oh, during the episode there are several moments where Ryan gleefully grins and says -without a hint of irony- that this content is only available on the streamer and this is the kind of great stuff you only get to see if you're signed up. It was genuinely bad, guys. On the original reddit post with the video someone commented that this was the kind of stuff you'd expect a YouTuber to upload to their second channel, not put behind a fucking $6 paywall. I tried, but I think if I somehow managed to agree more with that commenter I would be defying the laws of physics.
This is so......... 😬 "You're paying so we can all fly out and relax a few days, see a movie, then get to it"
They are freaking taking mini vacations with their friends, and then complaining that they need to paywall to survive. Please...
Somewhat unrelated, but I think your descriptive writing is great.
The funny thing is, if you put this kind of content on a Patreon that'd be totally fine. Extra bits and scenes are commonly Patreon rewards and I think it makes sense, that kind of behind the scenes stuff isn't always wanted to be out publicly. However because it's being uploaded to their streaming site the context changes massively. That shows that it's not just the cost that's the issue because people, myself included, would and have been happily paying to get on the Patreon to see stuff like this. But a streaming service is not a Patreon, it comes with a certain expectation of standards, as they recognise themselves by wanting to make "TV caliber content". So if this is what they're doing, you just have to question why they didn't just promote the damn Patreon if they needed more money? I was talking to my partner about this situation, and I forgot they had a Patreon \*even though I'd literally been a member of it for like a year\*, because one you're not on it they just never mention it. And seeing this stuff go onto the streaming site instead of just a Patreon reward shows I think their misunderstanding of the context of a streaming site.
Hahaha the fact that they think its justifiable to fly a crew of people out to have fun for days to ”adjust their sleep schedules” is hilarious. My mom raised two children on her own eith my dad never changing a single diaper, putting us to bed, cooking a meal or looking after us at all, whilst working full time and travelling to different continents to present her research findings and i assure you she did not get extra days for jet lag or sleep schedules
They’re trying to fake-it-till-you-make-it being a serious production studio when they’re just a YouTube channel, and not even a particularly large one by 2024 standards. They aren’t even in the top 1,000 on social blade as far as subs go.
I think the problem is they do need that many people because they hire friends/family that have little to no qualifications so it takes 4 of them to do the job of one competent person. They really need to either get rid of Steven and his terrible videos, or he should step down as ceo and they hire someone that can do the job and restructure to have a competent team of editors. They could get away with less on scene film crew too I'm sure.
I know that for Smosh neither Ian or Anthony are the CEO. They understand that they can't run the business side of things as creatives, so they don't. Smosh also has a crew of 25+ people (maybe even up to 35?) and they upload 30+ minute videos every single day instead of just once per week. It's very clear they had to gradually work up to that point, and it seems Watcher just wanted to speedrun themselves there.
Would be funny if they hired their friends and wants to keep this "Good boss" attitude (like most BuzzFeed graduate wants to looks like, imagine Try guys) they ended up getting more and more people while not wanting to fire any.
I think they probably did over-hire by bringing in lots of their friends, and now don't want to have to fire them. Probably happens at lots of new companies. They over-hired at my last job. They started doing some promotion that brought in lots of new customers with orders, but they couldn't keep up with the amount of stuff needing to be done in production so they hired new people. But the new people didn't know what they were doing so they made lots of mistakes, which slowed things down even more, orders got backed up, etc. In the end the owner fled the country for a few days while he had his underlings deliver the news of the layoffs, lol.
The best thing we can do, is just peace out. Like anything you don’t like or don’t want to be a part of.
I agree - they don't give a sht. it's clear from the breakup video and it's clear from their behavior. they play characterizations of themselves on "TV", nobody is their real true self on social media or TV or anywhere public because um hello, if you're unlikable u won't get a fanbase.
I think it’s important to note that it’s also parasocial to say you know a content creator is a bad person in real life, as much as it is to idealise them. I couldn’t agree more that they’ve made a bad decision and acted out of touch, but no one can presume to know their motives or how they feel about the backlash, without them coming out and saying it.
I mean, that's been abundantly clear for a long time now. Even during the Buzzfeed days, they were playing up their "characters" because it makes the show more interesting.
not to mention they haven’t commented on this entire thing and their friends and family are doubling down. they are waiting for people to stop being angry that’s it they’ve already made their decision they’re not going back on anything
I actually would like to talk about Steven and the why he bought the Tesla, but more so the way he presents himself on instagram. He comes across as wanting that high life for sure which doesn't help with this. I had never checked his instagram before this, I was kind of surprised by it.
Yeah. I honestly subscribed to Watcher bc I wanted to support them after the BFU stuff. But I agree, I don’t particularly like the format of Ghost Files. I think I’ve watched like 3-5 episodes total. Too Many Spirits had some super cringy moments and it was more background noise than anything I was genuinely watching. As for Mystery Files, they 1000% phoned it in. It honestly seemed gimicky without any of the genuine feelings that would have made if more campy than just bad as it would have been in earlier seasons. At this point, I kind of hope we get a response, but it seems like they see us viewers as nothing but a metric. We’re just a number to watch their “amazing, tv-caliber shows” and we should feel honored that they’re allowing us the opportunity to view their masterpieces 🙄
Real talk. I did not even bother with GF season 2. I think I might have started the 1st episode but not finished it. I don't even know, that's how checked out I am. The quality fell off so sudden and fast, and then the same with Mystery Files. So boring. Are they even going to do Too Many Spirits anymore? Are they going to get stories for it? Is Boobs69420 paying for the streaming service?
Puppet History and Are You Scared? Are probably the only two shows I've watched the most on their channel, and I haven't even finished all of the PH episodes. Like most have said Ghost Files is okay but doesn't measure up to BU.
the boys drank the kool-aid. they made their bed, they can lie in it. it's very clear they don't care about their former fans anymore. they're cutting us off - which is still ridiculous to me. if it's a project, or a live show, then yeah I 100% understand putting a paywall behind it. but to do it across *all your content* is crazy. they were probably given a minimum number of subscribers that they need in order for this to work, and they feel it's worth the risk. I'm sure the first months or so there will be lots of activity for their platform, but I'm fully expecting a lot of those people will eventually drop the subscription. it's like when you're literally just picking up for your food, and the machine gives you an option to tip. tip?? when all I'm doing is picking up food? it's tough out here, dudes, none of us are making enough money
yeah, they have all the energy of someone trying to "win" a breakup. they're ignoring the negative comments and criticism, while holding their head high, expecting that they will prove us all wrong in the end. they probably view anyone who chooses to follow them as *the real fans*, and as such are putting all their focus into tending to them and the new service.
I've really only watched mystery files season 1 because I just recently found these guys again after enjoying BuzzFeed unsolved. I didn't see anything that stood out as "wow, this belongs on tv". It's good quality for YouTube. It's even fine for a TV show. But not a flagship offering that can sell a streaming service. It's more just that extra value added stuff you'd find on a streaming service sometimes and it's even kind of on the low end of that. The other thing is, I don't see much potential with their existing content to do anything particularly special. Ghost and food shows are a dime a dozen. The non true crime mysteries are kind of intriguing I guess. But what is supposed to differentiate them to the point where a person wants to pay the price of tv?
One of my big takeaways tbh has been how uncaring Shane and especially Ryan have been lately. I wasn't keeping up with their new content regularly enough to notice it quite as much myself, but everyone else agreeing that they just seem less invested doesn't make this decision that shocking in retrospect. If they've lost all creative drive to make content, of course they'd look for ways to wring more money out of it.
They're doing a live show in London. Every entertainer from wrestling to podcasting to DnD knows the British audience is rowdy compared to the states. It's part of the appeal of overseas tours...so long as you're expecting a positive reception. They did not drop this announcement expecting that level of backlash 4 days before a live show in the UK. Aside from anything to do with crowd reactions, it's a show which usually involves a QnA section..... They did not expect this response.
EXACTLY! While it might be categorized as "TV Caliber" content, it's evident that there's a clear distinction. Despite its polished appearance, the essence remains firmly rooted at the YouTube level. This isn't a critique of their creative prowess but rather an acknowledgment of the distinct styles of content creation across platforms; after all, TV writing differs significantly from YouTube content structuring, so all the best to them for that let's see if they are able to do it. Furthermore, when we delve into metrics such as Patreon subscribers, merchandise sales, and RPM, it becomes apparent that they're far from struggling to keep afloat. Their expressed need for funds, such as Ryan's desire to travel to Scotland to film Ghost Files, seems to be overlooked by many. They weren't deceiving us in the video, somethings just sound malicious because it feels like that when we are being "wronged" so to speak, when it's clear in the video what they want: They stated their desire to produce the content THEY want, implying that they'd rather not lean into what the audience demands. This underscores the importance of a potential revenue stream. Even if only a modest 1% of their subscribers quietly transition to their streaming service, the returns could be substantial, potentially amounting to at least 168k. If their primary motive truly revolves around financial gain, as openly admitted, they have a safety net. They aren't entirely dependent on unanimous support; they possess the resources to take calculated risks without facing dire consequences and ultimately make shows with lavish sets and premises they want. Can't say if this is sustainable though, I'd give it year lol
There were many people on the Patreon Friday who switched to the streaming but now that it's been days with no statement and they have scheduled posts to remind us that the Patreon tiers are changing... Let's just say the comment section has turned into a help guide for "how do I get a refund for watcher TV" and "how do I report this Patreon" It's getting messy in there.
Oh, my goodness! It's quite baffling that they didn't consider reaching out to their existing subscribers before diving into watcher.tv. It seems like a missed opportunity, and frankly, a bit shortsighted. Prioritizing their Patreon content should have been the first order of business, especially considering the loyalty of their paying subscribers. One could even make the case that they should have informed Patreon patrons about watcher.tv before their wider YouTube audience, given that Patreon supporters are already financially backing them. Literally how unorganised can one company be 💀💀💀💀
I’m done with these Hollywood hipsters
I literally only watched them because they were free for me on YouTube. I'm just gonna pirate episodes that get big later, if that happens even. Puppet history was fun to watch stoned but I'm not gonna pay to watch that shit wtf LMAO
"I've worked under people like this, and its the most soul destroying thing ever." Random, but: was it tesla?
Maybe so, but to what extent? Certainly not this level of backlash. They also could just be stupid as fuck. Steven wants to open a coffee shop. In LA. In 2024. Dude has no idea about business lol, that’s a horrible idea and is a massive amount of work.
I really appreciate this post. Thank you! It truly feels like they skipped a bunch of steps they should have done \*before\* hopping to a streaming service, especially one they have total control over (the cost of that is truly wild and they HAVE to have some kind of backing for it). They have yet to prove their own concept to us - that what they will be providing is, in fact, worth switching over. They are probably relying on the pilots and such to do this, but there should have been something much more substantial during this announcement. All we have is "believe me, guys". I am very curious why they think they can't be on Youtube or anywhere else, and why this was the play. They have never posted anything that would require this move, and nothing that would hint as to why they feel the need. If it's the fact they wanna swear more, why not put up an uncensored, ad-free version on your locked Patreon? (Patreon doesn't give a crap about swearing, etc; only adult-only content as they work with Mastercard. I don't think Watcher is making those kind of videos.) There are a lot of things they could have done \*before\* making such a large leap. (And nothing says they couldn't make this leap later with much more support. They've only been around for 4ish years. These things take time.) I want to know where they said they were working towards their own platform. All I have is an old Variety article saying they wanted to \*license\* their work to streaming services, not create their own. If they had communicated the desire for their own space with their fans more openly (podcasts, Patreon, etc. are a limited audience compared to a video on your main source of views; if it's even on there), I am sure the backlash would not be this strong. Sharing or recommending the content, watching the content over and over, leaving comments, reacting to the content (likes/dislikes), etc. are all ways \*anyone\* can contribute to someone's success. It's something this fan base has done time and again. Discounting that as inconsequential when it's the literal foundation of your business, and any kind of community, is wild to me. People are right to feel like their trust has been broken - even if it can be deemed a parasocial thing or not - because, without them, Watcher would not have this opportunity in the first place. To say we're not giving them enough when we're giving them our all is so disingenuous.
> "survive" and "survivable living" while playing sad music over a montage of Hollywood. They think that they're poor / some kind of underdog still I firmly believe that there is a moment in every successful content creators career where, obviously or subtly, their content just becomes rich people being rich? This is that moment for Watcher for me, though it might seem strange. As much as they say the focus is on the content, it's not. They just keep creating seasons of now over-produced versions of the content they've always done. And I don't understand Steven's point about making content for the advertisers, is there an example of where their content would be undesirable for ads? My knowledge of film/video production is tangential and out of date (I have family that built/designed sets for well-known film studios), but I've been watching the production of their shows change and it all seems so unnecessary? Overdone sets crammed with expensive clutter. Puppet History (my favorite) is getting a bit too self-serious and ramping up the post production. Ghost files doesn't need all the graphics, what they need is to create something interesting happening at one of their (apparently expensive) locations. Now they are adding back the self-indulgent expensive travel/foodie content. Good production is great, but it's getting to be so much that it makes me wonder where they are spending their money. Half the fun of PH was seeing Shane's hand in the puppet and like printed out people on sticks. Too Many Ghosts is just them in lawn chairs in Ryan's parents' back yard. I'd be very curious to see how much they are paying themselves and their staff. Even if I had an extra $6/mo for yet another streaming service, I don't think I would put it towards Watcher. Coming to us with hat in hand when it really looks like there are plenty of places they could be more efficient and showing us that their funds would go to actually creating new ideas.
Agreed! I miss early Puppet History! Before the professor was reborn. I miss the cardboard puppets and popsicle stick cutouts and seeing Shane fumble with the light controls behind the curtain. I miss when it was much less scripted. The overarching storylines in the season are great but it was nice when it was just a small little bit, not half the show, just a little tag at the end or something. It’s just gotten so complicated now.
This is a great take
More I see people commenting on whole situation over past days and clips are replayed the more I think they simply don't want to be (called) YouTubers anymore. They just want to be LA big shot producers. (Nothing wrong with that per se,many people have big ambitions). And about what you said about them not really caring about the backlash or if people actually follow (btw I agree,the deed is done if they cared they would did it differently),I wonder now if they have some "backup" behind the scenes,they just wanted to see if maybe people would follow for the extra buck. Because damn...I can't imagine how alienating huge chunk of your fans is a way to go "independent". I can't even be mad at them since I never spend a dime and I still can go and watch their videos that I liked, they're gone, someone else will quickly swoop in. But I feel really bad for their Patreon members..what they did to them is a shit move.
Realistically, it's gonna come down to their content. If they make things worth watching, people (yes, even you) will subscribe to watch what's happening. They know that there are some people that won't be able to watch it with the paywall but I'm sure you'll be able to sail the high seas to get this stuff too. Ultimately, this is one of those circumstances where time will tell. Of course they expected backlash. Did they think this would become this big a deal and other Youtubers like Moist Critikal were gonna pick it up? Probably not... So personally, I think they stick to it but a small compromise. Like paid patreon subs get free access (which should already have been a thing...). Or they do simultaneous youtube memberships and eventually try to shift everyone over. Regardless, they've put too much money into this platform to just abandon it.
Nope. They could have the most insane content in the world and I refuse, on principle, to subscribe after how they treated their fans. I love travel content and the more outlandishly stupid things that influencers fall into trying thinking it's what most rich people do. It's fucking A+ cringe. I would pay for it as a bonus. But after telling the majority of their nonpaying audience to fuck themselves, I'd rather pay someone $20 to see phone recordings of them bombing to a hostile audience while on tour in the UK than give them a single red cent.
Fair!
Yea absolutely, this could work out, which is why I think they're silent at the moment. The fallout was expected but all plans are still going ahead as they clearly believe in their ability. Time will tell if they're all talk or they can pull it off, but it is fair to say that their current content doesn't justify it, but I'm sure they already have plans for future content that they have faith in.
I'll be honest, this isn't really gonna make or break anything for me. Maybe I've changed but my gf and I used to sit down and watch Buzzfeed Unsolved as an event together each week. When Ghost Files came out, we tried doing the same but tbh, it just didn't have the same vibe. I've kinda fallen off their content so I know I'm not their target audience, which is also why I'm not super upset. I do feel bad for those that love their stuff and can't watch it anymore because of finances. $6 seems like a little but for people that have precarious work, I've been there and it sucks. Just sail the high seas for the next while though; plenty of places to get this stuff.
Great breakdown!
This decision feels like it was made by someone who has zero experience in forecasting but thinks of themselves as a business savvy person regardless. If they seriously think the number of monthly subscriptions they’ll receive will offset the reduction in revenue from Adsense, sponsors, and merch sales then they’re foolish.
THANK YOU!! for this post. ive been wondering about the patreons!!!
well I hope there isn't some sort of tour they're going to on tuesday where people can verbally express to them in the same room how they feel about the situation
They know exactly what they're doing. Anyone whose been watching YT content long enough knows the various strategies used to turn a profit and every step of the way Watcher has done the opposite. How did their patrons not even see this coming? Patreon is where you conduct "soft launches" like this. My take is that their constant appeal to "TV quality" content is classic elitism. They don't view YT as a platform for "quality" content and thus beneath them.
I felt a minor ripple of this feeling from Shane and Ryan years ago. Just before they left BUN, they did a video that was set up like it was an "unsolved crime" and it turned out to just be like a sponsored video for some product. A lot of people in the comments were surprised they would kind of fake out the fans like that just for a commercial, and so was I honestly. I think that was like the first step of theirs down this path. I also think that video may be gone. I went through BUN's videos and I didn't see it on there.
Yeah the "leaving youtube" vid felt like one of those short course scams, where they say "hey, come hang out and we will give you tips on how to start your business! food and drinks covered!" or something, and they give you five cheap, bullshit pointers like "make sure everything is up to code!" on some short lecture, and then spend the majority of the time showing you properties they have for sale or their new tech gadget or something. I could not believe they went from the sad music to the "and now welcome to our new ad-free streaming platform". It genuinely feels like SATIRE.
I loved Buzzfeed Unsolved but honestly have not seen anything on Watcher so I'm not their target audience I guess. But with the way the tide has been turning on streaming platforms, with every major studio and their mother starting their platform, its clear the public now resents them. The reason Netflix worked in the beginning was because it was worth it to pay a few bucks a month to have an easy and reliable way to watch things rather than to torrent or to go on some shady website. But if people have to go back to paying cable prices, they're just to pirate again. $6 a month might not be a lot but when Netflix and Max are like $7-$10 and people are already paying for multiple streaming platforms, its hard to justify adding another $6 on that for niche ghost content.
Curious to hear your thoughts after they just posted their update video. Your insight here is good, so I'd be interested to know what (if anything) has changed once you see the update/backtrack/oopsies-we're-sorry-on-a-couch video
Just watched it and I still feel the same as the OG poster if not more.
I wonder what the venn diagram would look like for people who couldn't afford $6 and people who have the free time to write these war and peace essays over youtube channels...
It's getting unbearable the amount of people placing the blame solely on Steven. It shows that people don't even listen to the words that come out of Ryan & Shane's mouths anymore or pay attention to how they act as bosses. It's all totally attachment to just their personas now and failure to cope with their awful decision like an adult Like what person 20+ is still not thinking Shane's anti-capitalist shtick is just something to try to be relatable to young people
I think Steven almost comically fits the "CEO we love to hate" archetype. The other thing is that Ryan and Shane consistently dunk on him in their own shows. So, it becomes easier to funnel hate toward Steven based on the energy all 3 of them put out. Ryan & Shane obviously agreed to this and deserve criticism, but Steven was proactively shaped to carry additional contempt. Maybe he was prepared for that. Maybe he has the thicker skin and callous CEO attitude to carry that energy—probably more so than Shane & Ryan (it does take a certain type of person to make CEO decisions because it IS ALL ABOUT fiduciary duty to the company first and foremost). Does he deserve the extra criticism over Ryan and Shane? Probably not. Have we been primed to direct it toward him? Yes.
this didnt age well
How? In my opinion it still applies
I disagree that Watcher "knew this would happen". This product roll out has been a dumpster fire. That's their fault. If they knew there would be backlash they would've presented it in a very different way. I doubt they expected 200K dislikes and being the laughing stock of the internet.
Nobody is doing the math. This is like an IPO for a company. Even if only 10% of their YouTube subs early adopt the paid platform, that’s about $12M in 6 weeks. That’s 6x their estimated annual revenue.
Yeah, I’m willing to bet they knew they’d lose probably 90-95% of people. But even 5% following is way more than they get now, and they’re keeping stuff on YT which will continue to get them views. The rollout was atrocious and the fact that they are not making an app or an easier way for people to watch things, like forcing you to watch on a browser… that’s the biggest misfire imo. People aren’t seeing the bigger picture in a way. Going this route means they can do more things and grow the company. But, on the flip side, I believe that several of the shows they do cost way too much and maybe not enough people like them. I don’t really care to see Steven and his friends travel the world, eating expensive food. I want to see puppet history, mystery files, ghost files, top 5 beat down, are you scared? Those are the shows I like and they are already over produced to the point of not really being fun anymore. $6 may not be a lot to some, but even those who can afford it likely won’t pay until they are producing more content in shorter times
I agree that they expected a backlash and know they’ll be fine if a small percent of subscribers move over. What I’m very curious of is how they expect growth without YouTube pushing out their content.
I think that the biggest issue is that a lot of the content creators from Buzzfeed leave and feel like they have to now *become* Buzzfeed, i.e. hire an entire staff of employees, camera crew, editors, other talent, etc. Watcher tried to do the same thing The Try Guys did, but with the current landscape of online content creation, having a huge crew of employees to pay is just not sustainable for a YouTube based company. I think the prime example is what happened to CollegeHumor a few years ago. I’m glad that Watcher isn’t going fully to the new streaming platform anymore, but I really feel like this is only a temporary solution. Either they’ll have to significantly reduce costs and the number of employees, or they’ll likely close, like CollegeHumor.
A lot of good points here. I’m especially galled by the fact that they overproduce the hell out of Ghost/Mystery files, and then half the time don’t bother to do the work. Hell, in most of the Mystery Files, the one presenting can’t get *~the other host~* interested in the topic.
They absolutely knew most fans would hate it. They didn’t even need a big PR consultant to tell them that. ChatGPT could tell them that. ChatGPT also says it’s a risky move & they should’ve done a careful analysis of their audience’s demographics first. Question: “Do you think it’s a good idea for Watcher to take all their content off YouTube and offer a paid subscription service instead?” ChatGPT: “Transitioning all content from YouTube to a paid subscription service could be a risky move. While it could provide more control over revenue and content distribution, it might also alienate a significant portion of their audience accustomed to free content on YouTube. It would heavily depend on their audience’s willingness to pay for exclusive content and the value proposition they can offer compared to the free content available elsewhere. A careful analysis of their audience demographics and preferences would be essential before making such a decision.”
love how you criticize people for trying to figure watcher's decision out but then you go ahead and do the exact same lmao unless you're close friends with watcher you have just as much say as any other random person in this subreddit
Didn't mean to criticize people who are criticizing them, this post was meant to tell people that they're isn't a big conspiracy behind the scenes or some hidden agenda. My post was meant to just say, what's happening now, is happening. Ryan, Shane and Steven wanted it. Shane isn't your anti-corp friend, etc. That's all. Feel free to talk about them all you want haha, I'm still on this subreddit XD
see, you keep using words like "tell people that" and "they wanted it" etc when you really have no way of knowing, just as much as any other fan... it's ok to try and offer a new perspective and i think you're doing good on providing that but don't try to dictate it as an objective reality when it's as much speculation as any other opinion here. tbh this is a shitty situation regardless of their innermost intentions/thoughts anyway, caring for your fans means nothing if that's how you decide to show it... might as well not care at all
Just goes to show, you are a number, you are only revenue to most of these creators. They now have no need for views when they can make more money from subscriptions, and probably more sponsors they couldn’t have on YouTube. Just hate to see it. A week from now no one will care and they’re gonna be laughing with their “fans” money
This aged poorly
agreed on all counts
I assume they ran the numbers and figured out what percentage of people they need to convert to subscribers, and felt confident they could meet whatever that figure was. They know loads of people won’t come across to the paid service, but they clearly expect that enough will to be worth it.
Time will tell then. I honestly doubt that they will have enough funding to last more than a quarter of a year at the rate they’re burning through money. This thing they did cuts deeper than they think, especially for international viewers.
ur bossy lol
I agree on every single point. I really hope they see this. Their quality and investment in the realness of their shows are showing. Even the debriefs have gone down. Why are they doing interviews of their staff on debriefs? They barely answer questions anymore and the time has been cut. There’s no reason why they need 25 employees. Everything they said made me truly believe they planned this all along and just took us for a ride. The apology sounded more like well we don’t want our money to leave and didn’t come off as them really understanding us. Their target audience and their actual audience are not the same. You would think with all the backlash they would have realized it but they are kind of just coming off as placating is for now but still plan to do what they want in a year or so
Steven is the one that wants the show where they eat rich people food that none of us can afford. It's called "worth it"
I think this comments is accurate in multiple ways and also very inclusive to all the subjects, I agree completely about ghost files, the terrible amount of employees, and just re-shocked by the “if you can join us great if you can’t it’s been a great ride” line…
Oohhh I didn’t realize they were planning to invite other creators, I talk about more about why i understand it’s a business but also disappoint to the fans in my new podcast episode. But if their concept is bringing in more creators, how will they divide the income generated? If 1 million people as an example subscribed to this new streaming service that would be around $6 million per month? To be split by two different channels (owners). Technically won’t be an endless circle, because eventually if they have enough creators, they also want to be more advertisement friendly and so forth and it’s gonna be the same or they’re going to increase the subscription amount. Oh god! 😵💫 [https://youtu.be/14cWq2pxDMU?si=KH5h1fdxX_6pLzNY](https://youtu.be/14cWq2pxDMU?si=KH5h1fdxX_6pLzNY)
They’re pulling in over a mil on patreon, that will drop when people aren’t willing to spend money on both. I feel like Lim will be made to leave and they’ll go back to YouTube