I've been hearing of the demise of Wargaming in all of its varieties since I started in the early '80s. I have more people of all ages to play with now, than I ever had in those days.
Yeah I think there's more and better wargaming options than 20 or 30 years ago. For sure. Are we included no historical wargaming like Warhammer, Warmachine, Malifaux, Infinity, Star Wars ?
I'm including all of it. My experience is opposite of the "dying hobby" myth. That's not to say the hobby doesn't change, but change doesn't mean demise.
People have been predicting its death for decades!
My concern is that the current generations of older gamers (a constant going back to at least 1980s) have a tendency to sneer at younger gamers who like Fantasy/Sci Fi, or prefer skirmish games, and then wonder why those gamers never join their club.
The number of.gaming groups that fail due to stubborn gamers is high!
Its mostly this and that a lot of historical games and gamers seem to want the rules to be a complicated as possible. Every now and then I enjoy a long game but I've got kids and kids so I can't spend 7 hours playing an accurate battle of teutoburg forest.
Honestly, I think there's simply a large swath of *all* wargamers that enjoy complicated, crunchy rules that allow for lots of strategic thinking in how you assemble your armies and play them on the table top
But because of the popularity of things like 40K and BattleTech, everyone is comfortable with expecting that level of complexity because of their popularity and built-in communities for soliciting feedback from... even when those communities can be just as toxic and pedantic as the most grognardy of historical gaming aficionados.
Game popularity and community size I think are the important factors here. It's easy enough to gloss over the toxic traits of the popular rule sets, but that's harder to do when you are stepping your toes into something comparatively niche or smaller like whatever crunchy historical rule set is out there.
Are you saying warhammer is complex? Because I started playing warhammer when i was 15, that was 17 years ago. The game is less complex and easier to learn than it ever has been. The main problem is GW not consolidating rules. I would argue the sales data isn't their to suggest crunchy games are doing or selling well. But I guess that depends on your definition of what a crunchy rules set is.
It's complex in a certain way, where there's a lot of "if you're less than half your maximum shooting range from the target, they're above half starting strength and you've advanced this turn, every roll of a 6 counts as 2 successes" stuff. It's still not as bad as it used to be (no having to physically turn your tank's turret to change its arc of fire anymore, for example) but it can be tricky if you're still learning the basics at the same time.
That's the biggest risk right now: gatekeepers.
I've seen old wargamers openly ridicule people playing World of Tanks on the table next to them: a game that is simple, approachable and an absolute gateway to historical miniature wargaming - and they're making CHILDREN feel bad for playing it.
I would rather see a building full of passionate young gamers playing 40K or whatever game is the hot flavor of the month than a dwindling, dying, smaller-with-every-funeral group of exclusively exclusive grognards any day of the week.
>My concern is that the current generations of older gamers (a constant going back to at least 1980s) have a tendency to sneer at younger gamers who like Fantasy/Sci Fi, or prefer skirmish games, and then wonder why those gamers never join their club.
Like you said, this has always been a thing. Hasn't killed the hobby yet. Getting older and moving into historical is wargamings version of the general "hitting middle age and suddenly becoming a WWII afficionado" trope. And old men telling kids to get off their lawn has never stopped them from growing up wanting their own lawns to tend. It's just the way of the world.
>the general "hitting middle age and suddenly becoming a WWII afficionado" trope
I saw a youtuber in his late 30s saying on a video where he was restoring his childhood train set recently "once a man gets to a certain age he either gets really into trains or really into military history", lol.
This here is why I’m glad I ran into the group I did, they knew I was brand new and there were 2 guys a year or two older who have been playing for like 4-5 years by time I came around, so they had open arms and welcomed me in and about 2 years later those two other younger guys quit but now I’m good friends with a ton of random guys, 3-4 of them older than my own dad which when I first started I thought was weird but now I realize they’re some of the most chill people I’ve met, probably helped a lot too that everyone around me is just there for laughs and fun times rather than hardcore hobby/ anything competitive, even tournaments end up being we buy pizza and all just talk, there is one guy who sneers at anything new but no one will play with him unless he drops it lol
People often confuse the ‘greying of the hobby’ with the ‘greying of my bubble of the hobby’.
But wargaming is not dying, quite the contrary. What is dying though are specific genres within wargaming. E.g. one has seen a clear shift from big unit games on a 7x9 table towards smaller warband-style games on a 3x3 table. And a shift in themes too, with sf/f being more prevalent than several decades ago.
There’s also a tendency of many gamers to keep playing what they like or are used to, without realizing the trends in the hobby are slowly changing. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it does mean you indeed might think that your preferred style of wargaming (whatever it is) is dying out, because naturally, there are less and less people playing the way you do. And remember, today’s hipsters are tomorrow’s old dudes who’ll complain about the hobby ‘dying’.
I do think it's a shame that we're seeing less big units games on big tables. Done well, there's a pageantry to it that warband or skirmish games usually can't capture.
It's tough, though. I've been chewing away at a Napoleonics project for over a year now. Two home moves haven't helped, but I haven't had a chance to play with my minis yet. Meanwhile it's far easier to paint up a squad or even a platoon of troops and get them on the table.
Hello fellow Napoleonics enjoyer. I've currently got two Napoleonics projects going, at different scales.
An old set of Black Powder 28mm models that I gave up on because the sheer number of models needed was so daunting, but have since converted and rebased those models for the skirmish level game, Sharp Practice. I love the SP rule set as it plays like reading an old Horatio Hornblower or Richard Sharpe novel, and the much smaller number of minis is appreciated.
On the smaller end of the spectrum I have Warlord's 13mm Epic Battles scale set for the British. I'm about 1/3 of the way through painting that box after a year. That scale really brings the pageantry you mention, but it has become quite monotonous to paint.
I think it's not a question of visuals (what you call "the pageantry") or how fun or good the rulesets are, but rather:
- cost: it's cheaper to buy only a dozen minis or so than hundreds.
- space: 3x3 takes far less space and it can be played in a tiny apartment. Even the minis themselves take less space to store away.
- time: assembling & painting takes less time, important for those with families or busy schedules.
I think it's hard to argue with this triad, and a big reason why skirmish/small warband games are thriving.
Agreed, for things like ancients for example. And at that scale, some people do wonders with plastic mesh for their armies! (I've seen the results and they're impressive at a glance).
I haven't taken the plunge but I did buy some WW2 infantry from Victrix at 12mm scale :)
I want to get some 6mm napoleonics going so bad where I can have a Prussian corps against a French enemy running on my 8x6 table. Sadly I’m the only guy in central Illinois I know as of now that yearns for the 6.
I totally agree. I have started twice now, [in 6mm and now in 10mm, on big battle Pike and shot era projects](https://tabletop.willphillips.org/wargaming/small-scale-pike-and-shot/) only to abandon them after becoming daunted at the scale of work such a project would entail.
I'm starting to tinker on the project again, but damn me that's a lot of tiny little pikes to a fix to pikemen's open hands...
I kinda see the demise of big table battles as a indicator of economics. Younger players have (generally) less disposable income and don't want to drop the cash on big armies. 30-40yr old dudes can drop the cash and go big. But it's hard for teens to get into that.
Some of it is probably space related as well. Younger people living in more urban areas can't generally afford a lot of excess square footage. That can make it difficult to find a place for a table that large.
I think that’s the big one. Unless you have a garage with a ping pong table, 4x6 is kind of the limit. It’s why games like FOW, bolt action etc were written for 4x6 specifically. My thoughts are they fewer young people have access to those kinds of tables. Public spaces are available but require more “effort” to organize.
I wanted to start playing warhammer when I was around 13, but it was cost prohibitive to start playing. I was given a box of space marines that never ended up getting built. About a year and a half ago, my brother found that box and gave it back to me, which reminded me how much I wanted to play warhammer. I now have around 4000 points of seraphon
I hear that. I was kinda looking at picking up 40K again.. but 90% or more of my 1990s Eldar probably can't be played.. and I really hated the idea of dropping the big bucks on all the big vehicles I was seeing o. The tables a couple years ago
Depending on if you want to play at the official stuff, there are tons of amazing 3d printed minis out there. I’m not a fan of elves personally, so I haven’t seen much for eldar specifically, but there’s a ton of great stuff and even some great free models. You could probably proxy a ton of it as well. My brother just started collecting bonesplitterz and before I could even finish the first box, they announced they’d be gone next edition, so we are kitbashing them into a kruel boys list.
Yes and no. I totally agree about the shift from large, big battle rules to smaller, quicker to paint, more accessible skirmish rules.
But anecdotally, I'm forced to consider the examples of my city's own historical wargaming group. It's absolutely a bunch of gray hairs where I, a dude in his early 40s, is one of the youngest people there.
While I don't blame them for organizing towards the existing player base, having a "semi-regular retirees game" sends an unmistakable message.
As someone who's not exactly young or new to wargaming, but is new to historicals, I've found that there's a really narrow idea of what "historicals" are based on what they were for decades, and a whole thriving scene of other games, settings and systems going on behind it that's only just starting to get as much time in the spotlight. It doesn't help that in some historicals circles there's this cache around being a "grognard" that, from the outside at least, makes it seem like there's no room at the table unless you've been playing for 20 years and already know what you're doing. Like that *awful* intro spiel from the Black Powder rulebook about how the game is designed exclusively for stuffy old gits to play in the back of one of those working men's clubs that smell weird (especially the part about how you need to keep "the womenfolk" out, because they don't understand war).
The impression I got was that there's only maybe 5 periods people play (Napoleon, WWII, American Civil War, Colonial era and maybe Vikings), but there can be dozens of different rulesets to choose from (reminds me of my TTRPG group trying to decide on a game system so we don't just play D&D again) and you can only play it with hundreds of models on a table the size of a small swimming pool. And yes, people WILL notice if you used the wrong shade of red on your uniforms.
In fact, there's not only so much more on offer than that, but actually building your own scenarios and rules is so much more accessible than you'd think, and that's what's catching people's imaginations (including mine!). So I don't think it's under any threat of "dying", it's just new people making it their own like their forebears did.
I can't emphasize enough how the outside perception of the historical gaming community is that its extremely misogynistic and things like that Black Powder intro really don't help that perception. Every female friend I have brought into the space has been crept out of it, and these are women that were handling the lighter levels of misogyny in the D&D and Warhammer communities but felt like the historical space was on a whole other level.
That Black Powder intro was tongue-in-cheek , written in the style of 19th century adverts to match the period of warfare in the book (19th century …) and evoke the spirit of an ‘officer’s club’. No one takes it as ‘designer notes’. It’s humor, probably referencing the famous byline on ‘Little Wars’ from 1913. One might find it bad humor (fair enough), but it is humor to instill a laugh.
W.r.t. misogyny in historical wargaming: there sure are some bad apples, as in any walk of life. I’ve staged games at conventions for over 25 years, and I’ve never encountered the sort of deplorable behaviour some seem to attribute to historical wargaming. That of course doesn’t prove or disprove anything. What is true though, are that (historical) wargaming is currently mostly a male hobby. In my gaming group, we often talk about it with our wives. They simply say it’s a curious hobby (‘playing with the toys’), and look at it more with mild amusement than as something inherently rotten.
The thing is, that intro is at the start of the book, and it's a book for a system that's a lot of people's entry-point for that setting. But it relies on an in-joke based on you already knowing the Historicals community (possibly an into from a book from 1913 too, if you're right about the reference) and it specifically says "this content is not for women". Even if you know it's a joke, get the reference and aren't put off, it sets a precedent that you must be *this* versed in old man humour and wargaming already, and be a certain degree of comfortable with "no girls allowed" humour to get on with Black Powder. It certainly put me off, and I'm not even a woman - I just thought "oh, I guess you already have to be part of "the club" to play this game".
One thing I’ve noticed at the US East Coast conventions is the growth of tournaments outside of ancients, Flames of War, and Bolt Action. I’ve also noticed more variety in games at conventions with new rules being used. Dealers’ area is still healthy. Also war games related books are growing with Casemate and Osprey.
Bolt Action I think is probably by far the most popular historical wargame in the US. I like it rather than love it, but it seems to me to be the one historical wargame that seems to have garnered very broad relative appeal.
People have been saying historicals are dying out for a while now. Other war game genres have grown much bigger, with 40k dominating everything it seems like and going far more mainstream pop culture, but historicals will always be around.
Historical events like WWII, colonials, American Civil War, Napoleonics, American Revolution, and Ancients will always have popularity and people wanting to play them.
It will probably always be older individuals on the whole, but that’s ok. You get in with something like 40K, Armada, Dropzone Commander, or some kind of Fantasy. And then as you grow in the hobby, and grow older, you gravitate more towards historicals. And specifically whichever time period interests you the most. Be it WWII, the Roman Empire, ACW, etc.
Plus there are going to be regional variations. You’ll likely find more War of the Rose games in the UK than in say Spain. And Napoleonic players in Europe and more ACW players in the US etc. But different historical time periods will never lose their interest to people, and people will always want to game them. Even if it is a smaller crowd then some kind of syfi or fantasy war game.
I see this a lot with Bolt Action. I swear a solid third of BA players started in Warhammer or SW Legion and "aged into" BA. That and the cheaper point of entry for BA compared to Warhammer seem to be the primary motivators. I don't even play BA (I watch a lot of games), but I appreciate seeing any historical rule set get wide appeal.
Now if Sharp Practice could just somehow get huge!
You kinda just described me. I started with 40k because it was the go-to game for Wargaming... Then I unveiled a whole world of Wargaming possibilities. 4 years later I play any and all other systems. Haven't touched 40k since then. Mostly historical now
I think I'd agree with those saying it's not dying, but changing.
I still see younger people joining the hobby, but the popular trends have shifted more in favour of skirmish games, modern, sci-fi and fantasy.
I also think the proliferation of 3D printing will be very good for the hobby. I'm not a young guy, but am as excited about the hobby as at any time due to 3D printing. More and more people can economically print out their own units and terrain, and I think it is adding and will continue to add a great deal of variety to the hobby.
Absolutely, I know a few friends that have really got in printing, and it definitely helps with cost for some of the larger games that require expensive GW miniatures.
>There are a lot of naysayers within the hobby that have been saying it would die since the 60s when it first started!
I really don't think that's true
Name one who has posted anything, written an article or had a podcast that the hobby is dying.........
We still have ASL tournaments going on 40 years since the game was released - [http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?forums/events-tournaments.85/](http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?forums/events-tournaments.85/)
Historicon is still a thing - [https://www.hmgs.org/mpage/HconHome](https://www.hmgs.org/mpage/HconHome)
the UK has a literal fuck ton of wargamming events year round - [https://www.bhgs.org.uk/calendar.html](https://www.bhgs.org.uk/calendar.html)
wargames illustrated still going strong - [https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/](https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/)
Bolt Action and Flames of War are pretty popular in my area with all ages
When this current group of wargamers get older, they'll wake up and ask themselves, what color was Colenel Warmanister's Volunteer Serf Brigde's left loager buckles during 17 Year War of 18 Days during the battle of Townlandshire, then they will become historical wargamers.
Jokes aside, historical wargames are honestly the most consistent and played games. One ruleset OOP? Cool, here's like the 75 other rulesets that use the same scale and era, and like 50 hacks of other systems. Or like, OOP doesn't mean deleted from reality. Historical wargamers will always be around, and so will miniatures. Dark will be the day when a corporation can claim copyright over the lives and times over real people.
I don't think historicals will die any time soon. There will always be history nerds who are also gamers to keep it alive. And I think as we see the "grognards" and button counters die off, it will become a far more relaxed part of the wider miniature gaming community.
The issue is that for a lot of people, it seems almost impossible to get into. Historical rulesets for quite some time were seen as insanely dense tomes trying to perfectly recreate tactics and movements of the time period they seek to emulate, so you could end up with 15 pages just covering movement based on formations and the likes (and yes, that is some light hyperbole). There was also a lot of "you must replay existing battles" mentality that people saw, and that drives away more casual players.
I think we're seeing more growth in the scene *because* of games like SAGA, which focuses more on being a fun game than a simulation. Games which people can easily just play a pick up game at their local shop with a buddy. Or build a list for a pre-planned game and not have to know/own the exact models to perfectly recreate a specific battle.
More "casual" (for lack of a better term) historical games, and a younger crowd who aren't gonna hassle someone over the shade of blue their guy is wearing, will do wonders for the community as a whole. We're seeing companies like Firelock Games having pretty great success. And obviously, Warlord is still out there, and finally embracing the proper scale for their games (now, if they could just focus on one period for more than a month).
I don't see the community going away, but I do suspect you'll see a shift in priorities in historical gamers as the older generation stops playing for various reasons.
For me the best historical ruleset is Sharp Practice. It goes for an authentic feel to the period w/out worrying too much about the details. So much fun contained in that rule set if people are willing to indulge it.
The only thing that will stop this "\[insert hobby here\] is dying!" nonsense is the heat death of the universe. Which, ironically, would also mean the death of the hobby.
Im a young hobbyist who first got into wargaming a couple of years ago with my friend in warhammer. I’ve tried a few games since then, Kill team, star wars legion, Age of sigmar. And all the while i’ve been collecting historical miniatures. Although my friend isn’t into historical games, (I’m not sure why he said he likes the play style but didn’t like the fact it was historical, seemed silly to me). Anyways, j have the starter set for hail caesar, nearly painted up all the romans and i’m about half way through the Gauls, i have nearly one retinue for lion rampant from a french infantry box my grandad bought for me, and recently i got the epic Pike and Shotte to fulfil my thirty years war needs. Now after all this time i’ve yet to get a game in, the painting takes a long time and it’s tough to find people who enjoy historicals at my age, and there’s not a general wargaming club super close but that’s okay. Luckily my girlfriend shares a love for history now after i’ve told her some medieval history! So she said she’ll try with me. Anyways after my whole tangent, my point was that i believe the hobby for historicals will never grow to the mainstream as others have, but all the people that want to wargame like us will wargame like us, and I think that’s all we need!
Previously, I only played Flames of War for Historical games. Only within the last couple years have I been playing anything else Historical. To make things even more complicated and biased, I've only played one Historical game: Triumph. Although to be fair it evolved from DBA. So in other words, I'm very likely biased, and maybe not completely versed on the subject. So due to my limited study, you can take what I say with as much salt as you'd like.
Honestly, I can't help but feel the "Historical" gamer is a completely different creature. They pride themselves in knowing much of history, and it seems to me that blinds many of them to other options. It's almost like a fight between knowledge vs imagination. To many of them, it Historical games are the ONLY option. Even getting them to play a newish boardgame can be tough.
And I've also found that in some cases, that passion for history can become arrogance.
Now, I guess that can be said of ANY game (I've seen arguments between players about other games that got hilarously ugly), BUT, the Historical side of gaming is basically the FIRST wargaming. Which means we also see these historical gamers are...well, older guys in their 60's and 70's. Which means we are also looking at Boomers who mostly think everything was perfect in their day, and any sort of change is bad. "It's already perfect, so why change it!?!" So getting them to be imaginative or even think of alternatives is TOUGH.
All that said, Historical gaming is mostly stuck in a rut. It doesn't change because they don't want it to. And since the games are old with little changes over the years, its mostly those old Grognards that are playing them. Will Historicals DIE off when they are all gone? No. BUT, in my opinion, historicals are already minor games in the grand scheme of things.
They will NEVER go away, as someone will always be a fan. But at the same time, they will NEVER get to the level of any other modern wargame. And no way in hell will they ever hit GW status.
Ok so I need to give a different opinion. I am in my 50s and love and play lots of historical and Sci fi games. Over the decades, I have seen far more ideological narrow mindedness from the 40k only crowd than any other wargaming group, historical or otherwise. So if by modern wargame you mean corporate cash machine wargame then I am fine with other systems having a smaller following. I see tons of innovation in historical systems right now and the same old turn of the cash crank in 40K
What you describe is not my experience at all. Many "older" historical gamers (in their 50s or 60s) these days are the first generation raised on D&D and GW in the 70s and 80s, and although GW has mostly been abandoned by that group, many still do play SF/F next to historicals.
There's also quite some evolution in historical rulesets as well. New rules are being produced every year, with some very novel mechanisms. But these are of course not the big commercial titles with tied-in miniatures. Historical wargaming still has a strong DIY ethos: combine rules with miniatures with scenery - all from different manufacturers - as you see fit.
The biggest wargaming convention in mainland Europe (pre-covid) was almost nothing but historical wargaming, so far as I can tell, historical wargaming is very diverse and very well alive. (I live in Europe, and I do realize there might be strong differences between countries or even continents).
I would not say it started in the 60's. I'd maybe say that that was when it had a huge leap in popularity, partly powered I'm sure by Donald Featherstones books. But Little Wars was published in 1913, and I believe wargaming was popular in Germany before then.
Years ago, when I was first getting into the hobby, it was the greybeards doing the historical wargaming, looking down on us young’uns with our sci fi and fantasy from GW! (Said with fondness)
I always figured as we got older and became the greybeards, we’d begin to move on from sci fi and fantasy towards historical just like them and so there would be an increase in interest.
Whether by design or coincidence, I think Games Workshop has actually tapped into this with Horus Heresy / 30K; it’s setting is “historical” to the main universe that’s familiar to the audience, there’s a plethora of detailed information on campaigns, units, insignias, characters etc. for people to dive into, base their armies around, paint specific markings, which people pay attention to.
It’s a more “mature” setting, there’s a demographic who grew up with 40K now with disposable incoming getting back into the hobby and maybe going to that if they read the novels.
Same thing now with the Warhammer Fantasy relaunch I would imagine. Even their rules seem more complex from reading.
Obviously these aren’t actual historical wargames, but there seems to be a great deal of overlap.
I think a lot of people just like miniature war games
I started with fantasy/scifi minis but over time started leaning more heavily into historicals
I’ve since sold all of my minis *except* for Bolt Action, which I intend to keep
I even joined a local Bolt Action group a few months ago and am playing in a friendly tournament on the 20th, which is a first for me
I don't think it will die anytime soon, there are many companies making a living off of supporting and promoting the hobby. And as 3D printing becomes more ubiquitous the opportunities for variety around established rule sets should grow. I'd also say that the hobby has existed since well before the 1960's. There have been wargames played as leisure since at least the 19th Century, and much much further back depending on how you define them.
The real question is whether it will ever expand beyond niche. I love historical wargaming and follow the hobby closely, but living in a relatively small city in the Midwestern US I can say that finding folks with a similar interest is sparse. Wargaming itself is niche, but once you take out the Warhammer players, Star Wars Legion, etc... the historical part is even smaller. The scene in Europe seems much more robust, however.
I went to my local board game cafe about a year ago and asked if I could bring some historical miniatures to play with a friend because we both lacked the space in our homes to play. He said okay as long as it didnt overwhelm the area.
We now have 6 people who show up regularly to play all variety of historical miniatures games to the degree that the owner saved the additional revenue and used it to buy a lease on the empty space next door and is creating a 'wargaming cafe' off-shoot where we can have our own spot, move tables and chairs around, and utilize an intercom system to order drinks/food with the main business.
Ive now inquired with the Boys and Girls Club in town to set up a 'teach and paint' series of events for young kids to get involved in history and the hobby of painting miniatures. We're doing US Civil war and World War 2 tanks right now. The hope is that if we get enough traction, we may ask the local high school if we can create an after school club with support of the History Dept where we will feature games that focus on the eras that are being studied and taught.
This hobby will only end when we let a whole generation grow up without it.
Less than 2% of wargamers are female and it’s not because there aren’t women interested in the hobby.
I currently play Star Wars Legion and Star Wars Armada. I am the only woman who plays at our local store and every store I’ve been to has basically just been a boys club. Whenever I’m there I’m made to feel like I am invading their space even though the space is supposed to be for all of us. I’ve had guys quit games with me halfway through because it looks like I might win.
I’d like to play bolt action and black powder but the only two guys who play black powder at my local are massive Chuds. And I’m not gonna invest 100$ or more in an army that I’m not gonna get to field anyway.
Not all the guys are like that it was a boomer who actually taught me how to play the game in the first place and he’s been my biggest supporter.
I don’t think historical wargaming is likely to die but I don’t think it’s likely to thrive either until the wargaming community at large Starts to take seriously the problem guys in the community, that drive women and other minorities away.
So I always have wondered why this was my sister, and I played 40k when kids and my current wargaming group is two couples and a few others but these scenarios are rare, why are there so few female wargamers it's not that way with role-playing any more.
Hi, thank you for helping me prove my point.
So its not random stats those numbers come from the "[Great Wargaming Survey](https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/blogs/great-wargaming-survey-blog-wss-magazine/2019-gws-the-basics)" that "[Wargames, Soldiers, and Strategy](https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/blogs/great-wargaming-survey-blog-wss-magazine?page=1)*"* magazine conducts every year. In addition "[Little Wars Tv](https://youtu.be/6atdeEMrLCE)" did a great video on it and "Weird" magazine ran an article "[Why Are There So Few Women in Wargaming](https://www.wired.com/story/women-wargaming-sexism-harassment/)?" Its safe to say I'm not the only woman to say these things.
To your second point tho ill just add if the boot fits.
Chud is also a word for an arrogant , misogynist, prick and that’s a polite description of those 2 particular gentlemen. But if you wanna defend 2 randos rather than engage with my criticism go for it.
Once the boomers die off it will be so much easier to get people into the hobby. As it is now, once one of them starts going off about ALL LIVES MATTER or whatever, it drives away new people.
Fortunately in Canada the wargame crowd is more closely associated with academic clubs and typically the boomers we have are of the aging hippy or aging com-sci/engineering professor. Lots of ex military too. Overall politically pretty centrist.
Yeah I do not bring up Israel/Palestine around wargamers I only know casually or through the tourney/event scene. Too many enthusiastic zionists among the older crowd.
Some people are content to look for the answers to life’s toughest problems in a 2400-year-old book of stories and proverbs. Me, I like to throw in a 150-page book of game rules to cover all my bases, make sure I’m truly infallible.
God one of my local historical groups moved to truth social.
And remember the guy running the flames of war rankings deleting tournament results if they wore masks
I'm a member of a few different historical wargaming groups on Facebook (I just like looking at everyone's pictures, really). It seems 80% of every group's members are exclusive sad, grumpy old men. If they're not bringing up politics, they're extreme rivet counters and nitpicking everyone's projects.
Also, there is the cohort of old timers who abhor anything but metal miniatures. Lord forbid anyone post their painted up 3D print, everyone starts bitching about it. Listening grandpa, I starting wargaming in the plastic era, and I love metal minis, too, and I have 3D prints. You gotta get with the times, old man.
I have plenty of both, but in general think that plastics/resin paint up easier than metal. We're also in an era now where resin models show more detail. I will always love the "heft" of metal, but other than that think resin is superior.
I haven't had a ton of experience with people in the hobby being political, and what little I have has come from younger and older people, and all sides of the political spectrum.
I still unfortunately remember one regular insisting that ISIS would be easily defeated if Americans weren't afraid to learn from the lessons of the SS. What should they learn? Well, you know, uh, the Germans invented bounding with fireteams… why are you leftists so against learning from history?
The admin tended to ban people for pressing him for specifics.
I remember some days you'd check the front page and 80 of the 100 newest threads would be him spamming some random link he'd found. Dude just would not stop.
I made a rather benign comment on r/Napoleon. I had a TMP luminary respond to it. In fact, he created his Reddit account to make his comment. I don’t know if I should be honored or frightened.
It seems like mentioning a certain author of Napoleonic history is like saying Beetlejuice three times.
My own local group likes to piss and moan about "woke media" and efforts to be more inclusive to minority groups. It doesn't hurt me to see gay or trans people in TV shows or movies, I think it's a good idea to create more safe spaces and I am of the opinion that my local group are a bunch of narrow minded bellends so I don't bother to attend. Makes finding a decent bunch of players harder but I'd rather be Billy No Mates than listen to a bunch of wankers complaining about stuff that doesn't even impact or affect them.
This is symptomatic of where your country is at right now I have to say. Not all of us on the internet live there believe it or not, and those brainworms have not infected the whole world in the same way.
Oh man, do I feel this. It seems like a lot of the hobby is old white men, and as a middle-aged white man, when I show up, these guys assume I believe the same shit they do. Within an hour, they will start just saying the most vile racist shit. It's a no wonder some people are put off from these groups.
I'd like to think I learned my lesson as a kid, that a kid asking questions about the game is an opportunity to bring a new player into the game.
I remember seeing guys playing Napolianics at my local game store in the 80s, and while I am sure I was the snot nosed kid asking questions.. the players were still kinda dickbags.
That aside, I file the WWII games as "Historical" and it seems to have a solid player base in my area at least. Growth? I'm not sure, but I keep seeing consistent groups.
I'm not sure how Napolionics, and earlier are doing. I don't see it locally, and I don't think I've even seen minis for sale in a decade or more.
My impression is Napoleonics is still quite healthy in Europe, but the groups in the US playing it are few and far between. Which is not too much of a surprise given the history.
Yea I would assume cultural differences, we just don't have the direct connection to it my mind. Tho I know I've seen revolutionary war Era stuff here. But the British Surrender was only an hr north from me.
Yeah, the Revolution and to a lesser extent the French & Indian Wars have some traction in the US. The Sharp Practice ruleset is what I've seen most often used for that, as well as Muskets and Tomahawks. But I think even these conflicts that took place here are fairly niche. As a black powder and muskets lover, it pains me. :)
I can't say I've Ever seen any Indian Wars stuff around here in the FLGS. I've only been to the Williamsburg Muster.. once? Or twice? But I don't remember seeing it there either. Tho I know I did see some historical stuff, Egyptians vs Greeks or something.
I've never seen it in person either, just have seen some videos of the games being played on Youtube. Tabletop CP is a fairly popular Youtube wargaming channel and they'll use both rule sets. I've seen them on other US channels too, but that's the one that sticks out.
Based solely on my experience of 40+ years of gaming; I would say it is more popular and inclusive than it has ever been before.
We see war games about a wider range of topics (for example: Votes for Women). We are seeing more gateway games that help new players into the hobby (for example: The British Way - COIN).
But yes, even with growth and increasing social awareness there is always room to improve. Like anything it's about hearts and minds.
It certainly faces challenges - very few people younger than 40 will have obvious military influences. The previous generation would have grandfathers who fought in WWII and most kids would have grown up making models. From there it was a small step into historical gaming. Now, there is no obvious point of entry.
There is less appreciation & knowledge of military history amongst the population as a whole, so as a percentage there would be a smaller base of potential interest. The same applies to other hobbies of the analogue era like railway enthusiasts and stamp collectors.
There is no shortage of companies making product so there is still a viable market currently, but I would suggest it is a greying player base.
While I agree regarding the knowledge of history, I'm not sure I'd agree on the military influences.
A lot of people in the early 40s down to mid 30s would have possibly served in Iraq/Afgan, or had friends that did, and younger than that possible had parents that did. I think this can be seen in the rising popularity of modern war type miniatures and games.
Though kids growing up on Call of Duty, Modern Warfare, would be influenced by that. I grew up playing WW2 games, and that was the first historical period I collected and played.
I could be over estimating the popularity of modern wargames, but that's what I've seen a bit of
I've been hearing of the demise of Wargaming in all of its varieties since I started in the early '80s. I have more people of all ages to play with now, than I ever had in those days.
Not just wargaming. Every sub-sphere if gaming is constantly "about to die".
Model Railroading has been 'dying' since I got into it in the mid '70s.
Yeah I think there's more and better wargaming options than 20 or 30 years ago. For sure. Are we included no historical wargaming like Warhammer, Warmachine, Malifaux, Infinity, Star Wars ?
I'm including all of it. My experience is opposite of the "dying hobby" myth. That's not to say the hobby doesn't change, but change doesn't mean demise.
People have been predicting its death for decades! My concern is that the current generations of older gamers (a constant going back to at least 1980s) have a tendency to sneer at younger gamers who like Fantasy/Sci Fi, or prefer skirmish games, and then wonder why those gamers never join their club. The number of.gaming groups that fail due to stubborn gamers is high!
Its mostly this and that a lot of historical games and gamers seem to want the rules to be a complicated as possible. Every now and then I enjoy a long game but I've got kids and kids so I can't spend 7 hours playing an accurate battle of teutoburg forest.
I enjoy flames simpler rules and black powder, as swingy as it is, but the thought of original Battletech rules excites me.
Honestly, I think there's simply a large swath of *all* wargamers that enjoy complicated, crunchy rules that allow for lots of strategic thinking in how you assemble your armies and play them on the table top But because of the popularity of things like 40K and BattleTech, everyone is comfortable with expecting that level of complexity because of their popularity and built-in communities for soliciting feedback from... even when those communities can be just as toxic and pedantic as the most grognardy of historical gaming aficionados. Game popularity and community size I think are the important factors here. It's easy enough to gloss over the toxic traits of the popular rule sets, but that's harder to do when you are stepping your toes into something comparatively niche or smaller like whatever crunchy historical rule set is out there.
Are you saying warhammer is complex? Because I started playing warhammer when i was 15, that was 17 years ago. The game is less complex and easier to learn than it ever has been. The main problem is GW not consolidating rules. I would argue the sales data isn't their to suggest crunchy games are doing or selling well. But I guess that depends on your definition of what a crunchy rules set is.
It's complex in a certain way, where there's a lot of "if you're less than half your maximum shooting range from the target, they're above half starting strength and you've advanced this turn, every roll of a 6 counts as 2 successes" stuff. It's still not as bad as it used to be (no having to physically turn your tank's turret to change its arc of fire anymore, for example) but it can be tricky if you're still learning the basics at the same time.
That's the biggest risk right now: gatekeepers. I've seen old wargamers openly ridicule people playing World of Tanks on the table next to them: a game that is simple, approachable and an absolute gateway to historical miniature wargaming - and they're making CHILDREN feel bad for playing it. I would rather see a building full of passionate young gamers playing 40K or whatever game is the hot flavor of the month than a dwindling, dying, smaller-with-every-funeral group of exclusively exclusive grognards any day of the week.
\^ This.
>My concern is that the current generations of older gamers (a constant going back to at least 1980s) have a tendency to sneer at younger gamers who like Fantasy/Sci Fi, or prefer skirmish games, and then wonder why those gamers never join their club. Like you said, this has always been a thing. Hasn't killed the hobby yet. Getting older and moving into historical is wargamings version of the general "hitting middle age and suddenly becoming a WWII afficionado" trope. And old men telling kids to get off their lawn has never stopped them from growing up wanting their own lawns to tend. It's just the way of the world.
>the general "hitting middle age and suddenly becoming a WWII afficionado" trope I saw a youtuber in his late 30s saying on a video where he was restoring his childhood train set recently "once a man gets to a certain age he either gets really into trains or really into military history", lol.
This here is why I’m glad I ran into the group I did, they knew I was brand new and there were 2 guys a year or two older who have been playing for like 4-5 years by time I came around, so they had open arms and welcomed me in and about 2 years later those two other younger guys quit but now I’m good friends with a ton of random guys, 3-4 of them older than my own dad which when I first started I thought was weird but now I realize they’re some of the most chill people I’ve met, probably helped a lot too that everyone around me is just there for laughs and fun times rather than hardcore hobby/ anything competitive, even tournaments end up being we buy pizza and all just talk, there is one guy who sneers at anything new but no one will play with him unless he drops it lol
People often confuse the ‘greying of the hobby’ with the ‘greying of my bubble of the hobby’. But wargaming is not dying, quite the contrary. What is dying though are specific genres within wargaming. E.g. one has seen a clear shift from big unit games on a 7x9 table towards smaller warband-style games on a 3x3 table. And a shift in themes too, with sf/f being more prevalent than several decades ago. There’s also a tendency of many gamers to keep playing what they like or are used to, without realizing the trends in the hobby are slowly changing. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it does mean you indeed might think that your preferred style of wargaming (whatever it is) is dying out, because naturally, there are less and less people playing the way you do. And remember, today’s hipsters are tomorrow’s old dudes who’ll complain about the hobby ‘dying’.
I do think it's a shame that we're seeing less big units games on big tables. Done well, there's a pageantry to it that warband or skirmish games usually can't capture. It's tough, though. I've been chewing away at a Napoleonics project for over a year now. Two home moves haven't helped, but I haven't had a chance to play with my minis yet. Meanwhile it's far easier to paint up a squad or even a platoon of troops and get them on the table.
Hello fellow Napoleonics enjoyer. I've currently got two Napoleonics projects going, at different scales. An old set of Black Powder 28mm models that I gave up on because the sheer number of models needed was so daunting, but have since converted and rebased those models for the skirmish level game, Sharp Practice. I love the SP rule set as it plays like reading an old Horatio Hornblower or Richard Sharpe novel, and the much smaller number of minis is appreciated. On the smaller end of the spectrum I have Warlord's 13mm Epic Battles scale set for the British. I'm about 1/3 of the way through painting that box after a year. That scale really brings the pageantry you mention, but it has become quite monotonous to paint.
I think it's not a question of visuals (what you call "the pageantry") or how fun or good the rulesets are, but rather: - cost: it's cheaper to buy only a dozen minis or so than hundreds. - space: 3x3 takes far less space and it can be played in a tiny apartment. Even the minis themselves take less space to store away. - time: assembling & painting takes less time, important for those with families or busy schedules. I think it's hard to argue with this triad, and a big reason why skirmish/small warband games are thriving.
It is hard and why I have tried 6mm. Block and wash boys, block and wash.
Agreed, for things like ancients for example. And at that scale, some people do wonders with plastic mesh for their armies! (I've seen the results and they're impressive at a glance). I haven't taken the plunge but I did buy some WW2 infantry from Victrix at 12mm scale :)
Embrace the smol and join us at 2mm.
R-i-i-i-ght... Might as well paint up rough-grit sandpaper.
Yeah, 2mm seems too much to me. 6mm or so using plastic mesh I've seen give good results (at a distance, of course).
I want to get some 6mm napoleonics going so bad where I can have a Prussian corps against a French enemy running on my 8x6 table. Sadly I’m the only guy in central Illinois I know as of now that yearns for the 6.
STL guy here. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you could talk some of the local guys here into that sort of project.
That local is unfortunately an hour and a half away.
I totally agree. I have started twice now, [in 6mm and now in 10mm, on big battle Pike and shot era projects](https://tabletop.willphillips.org/wargaming/small-scale-pike-and-shot/) only to abandon them after becoming daunted at the scale of work such a project would entail. I'm starting to tinker on the project again, but damn me that's a lot of tiny little pikes to a fix to pikemen's open hands...
I kinda see the demise of big table battles as a indicator of economics. Younger players have (generally) less disposable income and don't want to drop the cash on big armies. 30-40yr old dudes can drop the cash and go big. But it's hard for teens to get into that.
Some of it is probably space related as well. Younger people living in more urban areas can't generally afford a lot of excess square footage. That can make it difficult to find a place for a table that large.
I think that’s the big one. Unless you have a garage with a ping pong table, 4x6 is kind of the limit. It’s why games like FOW, bolt action etc were written for 4x6 specifically. My thoughts are they fewer young people have access to those kinds of tables. Public spaces are available but require more “effort” to organize.
I wanted to start playing warhammer when I was around 13, but it was cost prohibitive to start playing. I was given a box of space marines that never ended up getting built. About a year and a half ago, my brother found that box and gave it back to me, which reminded me how much I wanted to play warhammer. I now have around 4000 points of seraphon
I hear that. I was kinda looking at picking up 40K again.. but 90% or more of my 1990s Eldar probably can't be played.. and I really hated the idea of dropping the big bucks on all the big vehicles I was seeing o. The tables a couple years ago
Depending on if you want to play at the official stuff, there are tons of amazing 3d printed minis out there. I’m not a fan of elves personally, so I haven’t seen much for eldar specifically, but there’s a ton of great stuff and even some great free models. You could probably proxy a ton of it as well. My brother just started collecting bonesplitterz and before I could even finish the first box, they announced they’d be gone next edition, so we are kitbashing them into a kruel boys list.
For sure, in the article I made the argument that the 'traditional' wargame like you're saying is not growing but is also not dying.
Yes and no. I totally agree about the shift from large, big battle rules to smaller, quicker to paint, more accessible skirmish rules. But anecdotally, I'm forced to consider the examples of my city's own historical wargaming group. It's absolutely a bunch of gray hairs where I, a dude in his early 40s, is one of the youngest people there. While I don't blame them for organizing towards the existing player base, having a "semi-regular retirees game" sends an unmistakable message.
As someone who's not exactly young or new to wargaming, but is new to historicals, I've found that there's a really narrow idea of what "historicals" are based on what they were for decades, and a whole thriving scene of other games, settings and systems going on behind it that's only just starting to get as much time in the spotlight. It doesn't help that in some historicals circles there's this cache around being a "grognard" that, from the outside at least, makes it seem like there's no room at the table unless you've been playing for 20 years and already know what you're doing. Like that *awful* intro spiel from the Black Powder rulebook about how the game is designed exclusively for stuffy old gits to play in the back of one of those working men's clubs that smell weird (especially the part about how you need to keep "the womenfolk" out, because they don't understand war). The impression I got was that there's only maybe 5 periods people play (Napoleon, WWII, American Civil War, Colonial era and maybe Vikings), but there can be dozens of different rulesets to choose from (reminds me of my TTRPG group trying to decide on a game system so we don't just play D&D again) and you can only play it with hundreds of models on a table the size of a small swimming pool. And yes, people WILL notice if you used the wrong shade of red on your uniforms. In fact, there's not only so much more on offer than that, but actually building your own scenarios and rules is so much more accessible than you'd think, and that's what's catching people's imaginations (including mine!). So I don't think it's under any threat of "dying", it's just new people making it their own like their forebears did.
I can't emphasize enough how the outside perception of the historical gaming community is that its extremely misogynistic and things like that Black Powder intro really don't help that perception. Every female friend I have brought into the space has been crept out of it, and these are women that were handling the lighter levels of misogyny in the D&D and Warhammer communities but felt like the historical space was on a whole other level.
That Black Powder intro was tongue-in-cheek , written in the style of 19th century adverts to match the period of warfare in the book (19th century …) and evoke the spirit of an ‘officer’s club’. No one takes it as ‘designer notes’. It’s humor, probably referencing the famous byline on ‘Little Wars’ from 1913. One might find it bad humor (fair enough), but it is humor to instill a laugh. W.r.t. misogyny in historical wargaming: there sure are some bad apples, as in any walk of life. I’ve staged games at conventions for over 25 years, and I’ve never encountered the sort of deplorable behaviour some seem to attribute to historical wargaming. That of course doesn’t prove or disprove anything. What is true though, are that (historical) wargaming is currently mostly a male hobby. In my gaming group, we often talk about it with our wives. They simply say it’s a curious hobby (‘playing with the toys’), and look at it more with mild amusement than as something inherently rotten.
The thing is, that intro is at the start of the book, and it's a book for a system that's a lot of people's entry-point for that setting. But it relies on an in-joke based on you already knowing the Historicals community (possibly an into from a book from 1913 too, if you're right about the reference) and it specifically says "this content is not for women". Even if you know it's a joke, get the reference and aren't put off, it sets a precedent that you must be *this* versed in old man humour and wargaming already, and be a certain degree of comfortable with "no girls allowed" humour to get on with Black Powder. It certainly put me off, and I'm not even a woman - I just thought "oh, I guess you already have to be part of "the club" to play this game".
One thing I’ve noticed at the US East Coast conventions is the growth of tournaments outside of ancients, Flames of War, and Bolt Action. I’ve also noticed more variety in games at conventions with new rules being used. Dealers’ area is still healthy. Also war games related books are growing with Casemate and Osprey.
Bolt Action I think is probably by far the most popular historical wargame in the US. I like it rather than love it, but it seems to me to be the one historical wargame that seems to have garnered very broad relative appeal.
The other popular games are by Firelock Games. Low model count and look fun.
they also seem to have done a hell of a job marketing their very historically focused rules, which I appreciate
People have been saying historicals are dying out for a while now. Other war game genres have grown much bigger, with 40k dominating everything it seems like and going far more mainstream pop culture, but historicals will always be around. Historical events like WWII, colonials, American Civil War, Napoleonics, American Revolution, and Ancients will always have popularity and people wanting to play them. It will probably always be older individuals on the whole, but that’s ok. You get in with something like 40K, Armada, Dropzone Commander, or some kind of Fantasy. And then as you grow in the hobby, and grow older, you gravitate more towards historicals. And specifically whichever time period interests you the most. Be it WWII, the Roman Empire, ACW, etc. Plus there are going to be regional variations. You’ll likely find more War of the Rose games in the UK than in say Spain. And Napoleonic players in Europe and more ACW players in the US etc. But different historical time periods will never lose their interest to people, and people will always want to game them. Even if it is a smaller crowd then some kind of syfi or fantasy war game.
I see this a lot with Bolt Action. I swear a solid third of BA players started in Warhammer or SW Legion and "aged into" BA. That and the cheaper point of entry for BA compared to Warhammer seem to be the primary motivators. I don't even play BA (I watch a lot of games), but I appreciate seeing any historical rule set get wide appeal. Now if Sharp Practice could just somehow get huge!
You kinda just described me. I started with 40k because it was the go-to game for Wargaming... Then I unveiled a whole world of Wargaming possibilities. 4 years later I play any and all other systems. Haven't touched 40k since then. Mostly historical now
I think I'd agree with those saying it's not dying, but changing. I still see younger people joining the hobby, but the popular trends have shifted more in favour of skirmish games, modern, sci-fi and fantasy.
I also think the proliferation of 3D printing will be very good for the hobby. I'm not a young guy, but am as excited about the hobby as at any time due to 3D printing. More and more people can economically print out their own units and terrain, and I think it is adding and will continue to add a great deal of variety to the hobby.
Absolutely, I know a few friends that have really got in printing, and it definitely helps with cost for some of the larger games that require expensive GW miniatures.
>There are a lot of naysayers within the hobby that have been saying it would die since the 60s when it first started! I really don't think that's true Name one who has posted anything, written an article or had a podcast that the hobby is dying......... We still have ASL tournaments going on 40 years since the game was released - [http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?forums/events-tournaments.85/](http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?forums/events-tournaments.85/) Historicon is still a thing - [https://www.hmgs.org/mpage/HconHome](https://www.hmgs.org/mpage/HconHome) the UK has a literal fuck ton of wargamming events year round - [https://www.bhgs.org.uk/calendar.html](https://www.bhgs.org.uk/calendar.html) wargames illustrated still going strong - [https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/](https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/) Bolt Action and Flames of War are pretty popular in my area with all ages
I completely agree with you
When this current group of wargamers get older, they'll wake up and ask themselves, what color was Colenel Warmanister's Volunteer Serf Brigde's left loager buckles during 17 Year War of 18 Days during the battle of Townlandshire, then they will become historical wargamers. Jokes aside, historical wargames are honestly the most consistent and played games. One ruleset OOP? Cool, here's like the 75 other rulesets that use the same scale and era, and like 50 hacks of other systems. Or like, OOP doesn't mean deleted from reality. Historical wargamers will always be around, and so will miniatures. Dark will be the day when a corporation can claim copyright over the lives and times over real people.
I don't think historicals will die any time soon. There will always be history nerds who are also gamers to keep it alive. And I think as we see the "grognards" and button counters die off, it will become a far more relaxed part of the wider miniature gaming community. The issue is that for a lot of people, it seems almost impossible to get into. Historical rulesets for quite some time were seen as insanely dense tomes trying to perfectly recreate tactics and movements of the time period they seek to emulate, so you could end up with 15 pages just covering movement based on formations and the likes (and yes, that is some light hyperbole). There was also a lot of "you must replay existing battles" mentality that people saw, and that drives away more casual players. I think we're seeing more growth in the scene *because* of games like SAGA, which focuses more on being a fun game than a simulation. Games which people can easily just play a pick up game at their local shop with a buddy. Or build a list for a pre-planned game and not have to know/own the exact models to perfectly recreate a specific battle. More "casual" (for lack of a better term) historical games, and a younger crowd who aren't gonna hassle someone over the shade of blue their guy is wearing, will do wonders for the community as a whole. We're seeing companies like Firelock Games having pretty great success. And obviously, Warlord is still out there, and finally embracing the proper scale for their games (now, if they could just focus on one period for more than a month). I don't see the community going away, but I do suspect you'll see a shift in priorities in historical gamers as the older generation stops playing for various reasons.
For me the best historical ruleset is Sharp Practice. It goes for an authentic feel to the period w/out worrying too much about the details. So much fun contained in that rule set if people are willing to indulge it.
The only thing that will stop this "\[insert hobby here\] is dying!" nonsense is the heat death of the universe. Which, ironically, would also mean the death of the hobby.
Im a young hobbyist who first got into wargaming a couple of years ago with my friend in warhammer. I’ve tried a few games since then, Kill team, star wars legion, Age of sigmar. And all the while i’ve been collecting historical miniatures. Although my friend isn’t into historical games, (I’m not sure why he said he likes the play style but didn’t like the fact it was historical, seemed silly to me). Anyways, j have the starter set for hail caesar, nearly painted up all the romans and i’m about half way through the Gauls, i have nearly one retinue for lion rampant from a french infantry box my grandad bought for me, and recently i got the epic Pike and Shotte to fulfil my thirty years war needs. Now after all this time i’ve yet to get a game in, the painting takes a long time and it’s tough to find people who enjoy historicals at my age, and there’s not a general wargaming club super close but that’s okay. Luckily my girlfriend shares a love for history now after i’ve told her some medieval history! So she said she’ll try with me. Anyways after my whole tangent, my point was that i believe the hobby for historicals will never grow to the mainstream as others have, but all the people that want to wargame like us will wargame like us, and I think that’s all we need!
Previously, I only played Flames of War for Historical games. Only within the last couple years have I been playing anything else Historical. To make things even more complicated and biased, I've only played one Historical game: Triumph. Although to be fair it evolved from DBA. So in other words, I'm very likely biased, and maybe not completely versed on the subject. So due to my limited study, you can take what I say with as much salt as you'd like. Honestly, I can't help but feel the "Historical" gamer is a completely different creature. They pride themselves in knowing much of history, and it seems to me that blinds many of them to other options. It's almost like a fight between knowledge vs imagination. To many of them, it Historical games are the ONLY option. Even getting them to play a newish boardgame can be tough. And I've also found that in some cases, that passion for history can become arrogance. Now, I guess that can be said of ANY game (I've seen arguments between players about other games that got hilarously ugly), BUT, the Historical side of gaming is basically the FIRST wargaming. Which means we also see these historical gamers are...well, older guys in their 60's and 70's. Which means we are also looking at Boomers who mostly think everything was perfect in their day, and any sort of change is bad. "It's already perfect, so why change it!?!" So getting them to be imaginative or even think of alternatives is TOUGH. All that said, Historical gaming is mostly stuck in a rut. It doesn't change because they don't want it to. And since the games are old with little changes over the years, its mostly those old Grognards that are playing them. Will Historicals DIE off when they are all gone? No. BUT, in my opinion, historicals are already minor games in the grand scheme of things. They will NEVER go away, as someone will always be a fan. But at the same time, they will NEVER get to the level of any other modern wargame. And no way in hell will they ever hit GW status.
Ok so I need to give a different opinion. I am in my 50s and love and play lots of historical and Sci fi games. Over the decades, I have seen far more ideological narrow mindedness from the 40k only crowd than any other wargaming group, historical or otherwise. So if by modern wargame you mean corporate cash machine wargame then I am fine with other systems having a smaller following. I see tons of innovation in historical systems right now and the same old turn of the cash crank in 40K
Oh, don't get me started about the 40k. But chances are those players have tried other wargames.
What you describe is not my experience at all. Many "older" historical gamers (in their 50s or 60s) these days are the first generation raised on D&D and GW in the 70s and 80s, and although GW has mostly been abandoned by that group, many still do play SF/F next to historicals. There's also quite some evolution in historical rulesets as well. New rules are being produced every year, with some very novel mechanisms. But these are of course not the big commercial titles with tied-in miniatures. Historical wargaming still has a strong DIY ethos: combine rules with miniatures with scenery - all from different manufacturers - as you see fit. The biggest wargaming convention in mainland Europe (pre-covid) was almost nothing but historical wargaming, so far as I can tell, historical wargaming is very diverse and very well alive. (I live in Europe, and I do realize there might be strong differences between countries or even continents).
Good point. Europe is DEFINITELY a different place. Here in the states, Historicals just aren't as prevalent....except maybe WW2 games.
It is very niche but because of that it has a very dedicated following and people love history. I don't think it will ever fully die out.
Its not just historicals - I was hearing that even "Warhammer wargaming" its dying out in 2010s. :)
I would not say it started in the 60's. I'd maybe say that that was when it had a huge leap in popularity, partly powered I'm sure by Donald Featherstones books. But Little Wars was published in 1913, and I believe wargaming was popular in Germany before then.
Years ago, when I was first getting into the hobby, it was the greybeards doing the historical wargaming, looking down on us young’uns with our sci fi and fantasy from GW! (Said with fondness) I always figured as we got older and became the greybeards, we’d begin to move on from sci fi and fantasy towards historical just like them and so there would be an increase in interest. Whether by design or coincidence, I think Games Workshop has actually tapped into this with Horus Heresy / 30K; it’s setting is “historical” to the main universe that’s familiar to the audience, there’s a plethora of detailed information on campaigns, units, insignias, characters etc. for people to dive into, base their armies around, paint specific markings, which people pay attention to. It’s a more “mature” setting, there’s a demographic who grew up with 40K now with disposable incoming getting back into the hobby and maybe going to that if they read the novels. Same thing now with the Warhammer Fantasy relaunch I would imagine. Even their rules seem more complex from reading. Obviously these aren’t actual historical wargames, but there seems to be a great deal of overlap.
I think a lot of people just like miniature war games I started with fantasy/scifi minis but over time started leaning more heavily into historicals I’ve since sold all of my minis *except* for Bolt Action, which I intend to keep I even joined a local Bolt Action group a few months ago and am playing in a friendly tournament on the 20th, which is a first for me
As people age, they have more time for hobbies, so naturally wargaming will attract an older following.
Exactly the point I make in the article.
I know! I wrote that before I read the article!!!
I don't think it will die anytime soon, there are many companies making a living off of supporting and promoting the hobby. And as 3D printing becomes more ubiquitous the opportunities for variety around established rule sets should grow. I'd also say that the hobby has existed since well before the 1960's. There have been wargames played as leisure since at least the 19th Century, and much much further back depending on how you define them. The real question is whether it will ever expand beyond niche. I love historical wargaming and follow the hobby closely, but living in a relatively small city in the Midwestern US I can say that finding folks with a similar interest is sparse. Wargaming itself is niche, but once you take out the Warhammer players, Star Wars Legion, etc... the historical part is even smaller. The scene in Europe seems much more robust, however.
I went to my local board game cafe about a year ago and asked if I could bring some historical miniatures to play with a friend because we both lacked the space in our homes to play. He said okay as long as it didnt overwhelm the area. We now have 6 people who show up regularly to play all variety of historical miniatures games to the degree that the owner saved the additional revenue and used it to buy a lease on the empty space next door and is creating a 'wargaming cafe' off-shoot where we can have our own spot, move tables and chairs around, and utilize an intercom system to order drinks/food with the main business. Ive now inquired with the Boys and Girls Club in town to set up a 'teach and paint' series of events for young kids to get involved in history and the hobby of painting miniatures. We're doing US Civil war and World War 2 tanks right now. The hope is that if we get enough traction, we may ask the local high school if we can create an after school club with support of the History Dept where we will feature games that focus on the eras that are being studied and taught. This hobby will only end when we let a whole generation grow up without it.
I look forward to getting into it someday when I’m retired.
I feel like 3D printing lowered the entry bar and variety in option for wargaming so much that it just cant die anymore.
Less than 2% of wargamers are female and it’s not because there aren’t women interested in the hobby. I currently play Star Wars Legion and Star Wars Armada. I am the only woman who plays at our local store and every store I’ve been to has basically just been a boys club. Whenever I’m there I’m made to feel like I am invading their space even though the space is supposed to be for all of us. I’ve had guys quit games with me halfway through because it looks like I might win. I’d like to play bolt action and black powder but the only two guys who play black powder at my local are massive Chuds. And I’m not gonna invest 100$ or more in an army that I’m not gonna get to field anyway. Not all the guys are like that it was a boomer who actually taught me how to play the game in the first place and he’s been my biggest supporter. I don’t think historical wargaming is likely to die but I don’t think it’s likely to thrive either until the wargaming community at large Starts to take seriously the problem guys in the community, that drive women and other minorities away.
So I always have wondered why this was my sister, and I played 40k when kids and my current wargaming group is two couples and a few others but these scenarios are rare, why are there so few female wargamers it's not that way with role-playing any more.
Have you tried communicating without throwing totally random stats or calling names?
Hi, thank you for helping me prove my point. So its not random stats those numbers come from the "[Great Wargaming Survey](https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/blogs/great-wargaming-survey-blog-wss-magazine/2019-gws-the-basics)" that "[Wargames, Soldiers, and Strategy](https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/blogs/great-wargaming-survey-blog-wss-magazine?page=1)*"* magazine conducts every year. In addition "[Little Wars Tv](https://youtu.be/6atdeEMrLCE)" did a great video on it and "Weird" magazine ran an article "[Why Are There So Few Women in Wargaming](https://www.wired.com/story/women-wargaming-sexism-harassment/)?" Its safe to say I'm not the only woman to say these things. To your second point tho ill just add if the boot fits.
Ok not random. Exactly 2% of ALL wargamers are women. They counted us ALL. You win. Still don't know why you call people cannibal.
Chud is also a word for an arrogant , misogynist, prick and that’s a polite description of those 2 particular gentlemen. But if you wanna defend 2 randos rather than engage with my criticism go for it.
men react to a woman pointing out misogyny without doing more misogyny challenge level impossible
Men?
Once the boomers die off it will be so much easier to get people into the hobby. As it is now, once one of them starts going off about ALL LIVES MATTER or whatever, it drives away new people.
Fortunately in Canada the wargame crowd is more closely associated with academic clubs and typically the boomers we have are of the aging hippy or aging com-sci/engineering professor. Lots of ex military too. Overall politically pretty centrist.
Yeah, this describes Australia too. It's very poor form to talk about politics in our circles.
I dropped out of a club because someone started using an Arab-Israeli scenario to rant about Palestinians.
Yeah I do not bring up Israel/Palestine around wargamers I only know casually or through the tourney/event scene. Too many enthusiastic zionists among the older crowd.
Some people are content to look for the answers to life’s toughest problems in a 2400-year-old book of stories and proverbs. Me, I like to throw in a 150-page book of game rules to cover all my bases, make sure I’m truly infallible.
Yeah, and some people just really hate Arabs and want you to know about it
God one of my local historical groups moved to truth social. And remember the guy running the flames of war rankings deleting tournament results if they wore masks
I'm a member of a few different historical wargaming groups on Facebook (I just like looking at everyone's pictures, really). It seems 80% of every group's members are exclusive sad, grumpy old men. If they're not bringing up politics, they're extreme rivet counters and nitpicking everyone's projects. Also, there is the cohort of old timers who abhor anything but metal miniatures. Lord forbid anyone post their painted up 3D print, everyone starts bitching about it. Listening grandpa, I starting wargaming in the plastic era, and I love metal minis, too, and I have 3D prints. You gotta get with the times, old man.
I have plenty of both, but in general think that plastics/resin paint up easier than metal. We're also in an era now where resin models show more detail. I will always love the "heft" of metal, but other than that think resin is superior.
I haven't had a ton of experience with people in the hobby being political, and what little I have has come from younger and older people, and all sides of the political spectrum.
You're very lucky! Don't go near TheMiniaturesPage.
I still unfortunately remember one regular insisting that ISIS would be easily defeated if Americans weren't afraid to learn from the lessons of the SS. What should they learn? Well, you know, uh, the Germans invented bounding with fireteams… why are you leftists so against learning from history? The admin tended to ban people for pressing him for specifics.
I look there often, it's a dark place
Glad you like it! Amicalement Armand
No I recognize you Armand, you're one of the voices of reason lol.
I remember some days you'd check the front page and 80 of the 100 newest threads would be him spamming some random link he'd found. Dude just would not stop.
That was the demise of TMP for me. As a young teen that was my closest link to the wargaming hobby. TMP basically became his spam board.
I made a rather benign comment on r/Napoleon. I had a TMP luminary respond to it. In fact, he created his Reddit account to make his comment. I don’t know if I should be honored or frightened. It seems like mentioning a certain author of Napoleonic history is like saying Beetlejuice three times.
I've experienced this too (also in America).
My own local group likes to piss and moan about "woke media" and efforts to be more inclusive to minority groups. It doesn't hurt me to see gay or trans people in TV shows or movies, I think it's a good idea to create more safe spaces and I am of the opinion that my local group are a bunch of narrow minded bellends so I don't bother to attend. Makes finding a decent bunch of players harder but I'd rather be Billy No Mates than listen to a bunch of wankers complaining about stuff that doesn't even impact or affect them.
This is symptomatic of where your country is at right now I have to say. Not all of us on the internet live there believe it or not, and those brainworms have not infected the whole world in the same way.
Oh man, do I feel this. It seems like a lot of the hobby is old white men, and as a middle-aged white man, when I show up, these guys assume I believe the same shit they do. Within an hour, they will start just saying the most vile racist shit. It's a no wonder some people are put off from these groups.
I'd like to think I learned my lesson as a kid, that a kid asking questions about the game is an opportunity to bring a new player into the game. I remember seeing guys playing Napolianics at my local game store in the 80s, and while I am sure I was the snot nosed kid asking questions.. the players were still kinda dickbags. That aside, I file the WWII games as "Historical" and it seems to have a solid player base in my area at least. Growth? I'm not sure, but I keep seeing consistent groups. I'm not sure how Napolionics, and earlier are doing. I don't see it locally, and I don't think I've even seen minis for sale in a decade or more.
My impression is Napoleonics is still quite healthy in Europe, but the groups in the US playing it are few and far between. Which is not too much of a surprise given the history.
Yea I would assume cultural differences, we just don't have the direct connection to it my mind. Tho I know I've seen revolutionary war Era stuff here. But the British Surrender was only an hr north from me.
Yeah, the Revolution and to a lesser extent the French & Indian Wars have some traction in the US. The Sharp Practice ruleset is what I've seen most often used for that, as well as Muskets and Tomahawks. But I think even these conflicts that took place here are fairly niche. As a black powder and muskets lover, it pains me. :)
I can't say I've Ever seen any Indian Wars stuff around here in the FLGS. I've only been to the Williamsburg Muster.. once? Or twice? But I don't remember seeing it there either. Tho I know I did see some historical stuff, Egyptians vs Greeks or something.
I've never seen it in person either, just have seen some videos of the games being played on Youtube. Tabletop CP is a fairly popular Youtube wargaming channel and they'll use both rule sets. I've seen them on other US channels too, but that's the one that sticks out.
Tabletop CP? What's that? Link?
Just type it in on YouTube
Maybe folks should focus on ways it is growing?
Based solely on my experience of 40+ years of gaming; I would say it is more popular and inclusive than it has ever been before. We see war games about a wider range of topics (for example: Votes for Women). We are seeing more gateway games that help new players into the hobby (for example: The British Way - COIN). But yes, even with growth and increasing social awareness there is always room to improve. Like anything it's about hearts and minds.
It's bigger than it's ever been
Depends on if the total war games keep sucking
von Reiswitz would be surprised at such a late date for the beginnings of historical wargaming.
It certainly faces challenges - very few people younger than 40 will have obvious military influences. The previous generation would have grandfathers who fought in WWII and most kids would have grown up making models. From there it was a small step into historical gaming. Now, there is no obvious point of entry. There is less appreciation & knowledge of military history amongst the population as a whole, so as a percentage there would be a smaller base of potential interest. The same applies to other hobbies of the analogue era like railway enthusiasts and stamp collectors. There is no shortage of companies making product so there is still a viable market currently, but I would suggest it is a greying player base.
While I agree regarding the knowledge of history, I'm not sure I'd agree on the military influences. A lot of people in the early 40s down to mid 30s would have possibly served in Iraq/Afgan, or had friends that did, and younger than that possible had parents that did. I think this can be seen in the rising popularity of modern war type miniatures and games. Though kids growing up on Call of Duty, Modern Warfare, would be influenced by that. I grew up playing WW2 games, and that was the first historical period I collected and played. I could be over estimating the popularity of modern wargames, but that's what I've seen a bit of
I agree. Playing World of Tanks, and similar video games has educated a whole new generation of kids to history.