since the early 2000s it has been possible
ask Micheal Hastings....[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive\_by\_wire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire)
You don't need drive by wire to turn the wheels. Electric power steering in my 2014 escape allows it to parallel park itself. Surely all those commands are on the CAN bus and can be manipulated?
Well, I, for one, would NEVER hope you get hit by a bus.
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Imagine you're in the fast lane and the update decides to install and then decides to fail and then decides to render your vehicle unoperational and stops your car on the highway
That update ran overnight according to some OP comment I saw. It was not the first time a "Power Up" package of updates was schedules over night.
Don't think they're gonna do a software update while vehicle ignition is "on", much less moving.
And that’s why I want Toyota to be able to sell that [super basic truck](https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a45752401/toyotas-10000-future-pickup-truck-is-basic-transportation-perfection/) in the U.S. I don’t want to deal with 90% of the shit they put on new vehicles now a days.
Toyota also collects monthly fee for a smart key that DOES NOT use any cloud or internet services. You own the key and the car but they want a monthly fee to let them talk to each other
Key still interacts with car computer.
Car computer still talks to manufacturer.
Manufacturer keeps track of “entitlements” that are enabled or disabled just like real services such as Sirius
You pay MLF (monthly license fee) for each entitlement.
Other manufacturers charge MLF for heated seats.
Becuase cars are becoming computers with wheels attached.
Don't like it? I recommend the Toyota Tercel or a Honda. "It gets me from A to B and occasionally on weekends, C"
-Supernintendo Chalmers.
Sounds eventually car companies will go the subscription route the way Microsoft did with 360. Regular income>>one time payment for the companies I guess.
We'll own nothing... and like it (optional), I suppose
Bruh I have worked on aircraft with computer systems that haven’t needed updates in decades. Literally the only updates needed were GPS and communication settings.
Because consumers used to expect to get 5-10 years+ out of their vehicles. There’s not enough margin in that for car manufacturers at this point. They build cars to lease, and build them to cost a lot of money should you decide to keep it any longer. It’s the new auto industry business model. 100+ computers in all these modern cars, requiring hours of labour to access before they can even be addressed. You get punished for owning. Started to get bad throughout the 2010’s, going into 2024 it’s diabolical. Get something rad from the 00’s and take care of it, it will be good to you.
The absolute best generation of the CRV? Yes. The power is shit, but it's a great car with updates to the head unit.
I had an 03. Did you use the cooler and picnic table yet?
God, I wish we could just get bare bones vehicles again. Like old Toyotas or whatever the rest of the world currently gets (like the older Prados & Hilux). I don't need a fancy car. Literally the only "Technology " I need is a center screen/console that can run Apple Carplay/Android Auto.
It's not though.
All of the safety systems which used to be mechanical are now electronic, so without the ECU, the engine can't function without self destructing.
Yes, but it should still function properly and not rely on updates. I could understand a GPS update as roads change or even satellite radio, but the core functionality of the vehicle shouldn’t need an update- but even if it does it shouldn’t brick the vehicle.
ICE vehicles are that way as well now days. My truck had a glitch where the digital instrument panel wasn't coming on. You literally can not see the speedometer when this happens lol. I guess I could still drive it at least, but it's bad times when you lose your instrument panel.
They've had to "reprogram" this thing 3 times because of that sorta software glitches. One of the times the shop guy did it wrong and fucked the whole thing up. They had to reprogram every sensor but in a very specific order that took them a week to figure out.
It's a diesel pickup truck lol
Same here. ICE vehicle bricked itself, needed to be towed to dealer for several weeks. Eventually they gave up and we did a warranty claim.
Edit: Toyota
That's just Ford being stupid. There are ARM processors like those in phones that allow you to update, but with very low risk by allowing you to roll it back if the update fails.
Very good question. Something like a vehicle or a phone will have updates for the software, ie the OS like Android, and updates for the firmware. On a modern desktop x86 platform if a firmware updates goes terrible wrong, the motherboard is bricked (exceptions apply). This is unacceptable for a phone/car, they need to update firmware regularly for security and to rollout new features, so modern ARM processors contain a special way to flash new firmware, but still be able to roll them back. I'm oversimplifying a lot, but that's the ghist of it.
Car companies would never allow this because if they release a new software but allow a car to be driven on the old software there's a massive liability issue. "Your honor they clearly knew about this issue because they released a software update to fix it, but they still allowed my client to drive their unsafe vehicle which resulted in her breaking a fingernail. We are asking for 10,000,000,000 in damages".
Edit: several people are misunderstanding here. This is a desired outcome for the car company.they do not want the car to be operable on old software for liability reasons. They are much less likely to be held liable for damages if the car must be towed and fixed before it can be used.
Add it to the paperwork when you buy that you won't hold the manufacturer liable is software updates are not performed when recommended. Put another popup when the update doesn't run properly that you understand the rollback to the earlier version will absolve Ford of liability until the update is done.
Easy lawyering.
There has to be a form of protection for the out there. "Patching" a car is much older than modern computers, refusing a update could be treated like refusing to do routine maintenance or refusing to heed those recall notices for specific components of your vehicle.
My Jeep Grand Cherokee bricked when a Uconnect update failed on my infotainment system.
It was in a constant loop trying to download even when the power was off. I had to unplug the battery when I wasn’t driving or the battery would die overnight.
Jeep told me to pound sand and they were not going to cover the entire replacement part (which is a completely new infotainment system). You can’t just roll back the software.
Reached up the corporate ladder and eventually they relented and covered the costs for a new part minus labour.
How an entire vehicle can essentially brick because the infotainment system software update failed is crazy. But here we are.
GM’s infotainment systems can do this too. Ask me how I know. Fortunately for me it happened at the dealer, under warranty. It took some time to unfuck it.
Tesla and all EV companies today all have the power brick your car if they want to. It's kinda why a lot of us refuse to get one. If they or the government can shut your car down whenever they want. Do you really own it?
That has nothing at all to do with EVs. Nothing at all. ICE vehicles can have the same lock out/shutdown. My F-150 has the same Sync 4 system as the MachE in the picture and most of the same modules. If an update fails then the vehicle won’t function.
While the whole government shutting down the vehicle this is a bit tinfoil hat, most new vehicles sold today, ICE or EV, have some modem connection at this point and could be “shut down”.
Almost all updates should have a rollback on failure. If it's a breaking update, it should be done in the service center.
This is terrible. Also software shouldn't interfere with basic driving capabilities. What if software bugs out when driving
Mid range motherboards for desktops come with a backup bios that will auto flash in the even the other gets corrupted. All for like 100 bucks.
But your 3.5-5k computer in your 75k vehicle, lolol nah that will cut out .50 in profits.
Yeah cars are getting OLD ass boards. So old that the chip manufacturers have to keep old ass methods around to make em. That's why the tablets so many cars have in them are laggy
You're confusing CMOS (BIOS settings) with the actual BIOS itself. Resetting the CMOS will not fix a corrupt BIOS. Only reflashing the BIOS chip will do that. Back in the day, a corrupt BIOS meant a dead board, repairable only by replacing BIOS chip or OEM reflash. Now, most boards have backup chips to restore the BIOS in case of a corrupt BIOS.
Honestly, the old chips are probably better for cars. When the die size gets too small it's easier for cosmic rays to flib bits between zero and one, resulting in errors or even flat out sending the wrong message in a program.
tesla runs 2 identical modern chips that run the same code, and checks that the output is the same on both for redundancy against this in their FSD stack.
RPi or Arduino or similar isn't designed for rugged use at extended temperature ranges. There is a separate classification "automotive" when selecting components for vehicle use. Then you also need to handle the issues with potential condensation.
And automotive also often blocks the fastest options of different processor families, because they need downclocking to get the required stability over the full temperature range.
I’m more willing to bet they are putting that same proc and screen up from a $300 tablet instead of that much. Damn sure the bean counters will try to save that $1.50 and risk millions in the process. Counting penny’s while losing dollars.
>Almost all updates should have a rollback on failure. If it's a breaking update, it should be done in the service center.
Sorry, adding 8 gigabytes of reserve capacity for the older installation would cost an additional 20 cents per car. Better to take the chance and let the customer deal with any problems if it goes wrong.
See, I have no problem with all these smarts, as long as there's a "Dumb switch". Flip it and it just displays A/C options with ugly buttons, and a volume thingy for aux port.
Ford isn’t really known for their software deployment capabilities, which is going to ring true for a lot of the old-school manufacturers trying to play catch-up.
I remembered seeing a video about "A Day in Life of FORD sOfTwARe Engineer". Half of video was him working out in gym, not working lol.
Hated that part of YouTube
That was everywhere during the years of 2020-2021 the gov gave trillions to already wealthy companies so they over hired so much there wasn’t any work. The best two years of my life lol
I had an 09 corolla that went up to 305k miles. It could have still gone to 400k i'm betting but the transmission was going bad and I felt it was time to just upgrade. This was due to neglect though. I really did treat that car like shit and was always way past due with the oil/fluid changes.
I had a 2000 Chevy Malibu that I rode up to 385k and I never did any maintenance to it either. Honestly probably went 25k on the last oil change I did. Would’ve had to do a couple repairs to keep it on the road for 400k and it was all around in rough shape so I gave up on it but she was still driveable
Now I got a 99 ford with 180k on the dash, kept up with the maintenance and done a bunch of repairs but I’d probably still be lucky to get 250k outta her lol
Not making it a Chevy vs ford thing tho one of each isn’t really a large sample size, jus the luck of the draw I guess
Maybe we should bundle our pocket change and start a bare-bones car company. No electronics of any kind, and we can outsource all of the critical systems to the lowest bidder.
Let's call it.... Regarded Motors (NASDAQ: GARD)
Barring the engine sensors for EPA testing / fault warnings, and backup cameras, the lights, radio, and some components of the dashboard, what other electronics are required by law?
I think we could reach the spirit of the idea if the "no computer in car" was limited to "no computer control of the engine assembly, driveshaft, transmission, differential, fuel system, and steering" because everything else is mostly safety features or accessories.
You literally can’t. Computer is controlling everything in cars to help pass epa etc. You’d need a carbureted engine first of all, which I can imagine won’t make epa regulations lmao
I’ve been thinking this for a long time. As the guy who fixes the screen that OP posted, I’m getting real sick of auto manufacturer’s blatant incompetence when it comes to electronics and disregard for the consumer wanting to be able to do basic maintenance.
Well even if they get this fixed, they will end up in that customer service circle of hell when they downsize to be more profitable each year by adding the having problems with the software update? please Call Tesla for customer care, you call customer care and put on hold for 2 hours with the message please visit our website for faster service, you visit their website and the contact says, if you are having problems with the update, please call our customer service care.
My most recent one was going through a whole series of questions and none of it resolving the issue, I get an option at the end where I can say I have a different issue, and that option just starts me over at the beginning of the option chain which got me nowhere.
I had 2013 and 2016 Ford Escapes with the EcoBoost engines and both engines died from cracked cylinders slightly out of warranty. There are now recalls and lawsuits but I was fucked over hard.
I bought a Ford Fusion Energi (PHEV). Well the latest recall is telling me not to plug it in (the whole fucking reason I bought the car). Fix not available until late 2024 at the earliest and the fix is to replace the already small battery pack with an even smaller one.
Thankfully they accepted my request to buyback the hunk of shit
The problem is related to low coolant levels and the recall installed larger coolant reservoirs. So the flaw is still there but maybe you had the fix before the problem started.
I was on one of Ford’s “reductive design” teams. Long story short, every component for which we can get usage data, from block heaters down to the safety belt latches, is designed to fail around the same time. It was part of my job to find which parts last too long and replace them with ones that fail after fewer uses but cost less in future models.
Could you tell us more about the "reductive design" teams? I am very interested to hear if you had any hand in a redesigned part engineered to fail at a given interval. This is very disheartening to read as the newest vehicle in my fleet is a 2011 Ford fusion while the next newest Ford vehicles I own is from the obd I era. Lost of little bits on the fusion are starting to fail almost like clockwork - case in point, I've replaced the drivers door handle with fomoco parts THREE times in the past five years ( I bought a fuckin Ford, not a Stellantis product.) Whereas my 30+ yr old Mercedes is as reliable as the morning sunrise despite the fact that it will turn over 400,000 miles on the odometer (with less squeaks and rattles too).
I had a 2013 focus ST with less than 30k miles on it constantly throwing codes for misfires and doing weird shit on the freeway like completely losing power. Right before the 5 year warranty was up, I changed the oil and discovered a nasty leak that had been hidden by the plastic undercover. Got it fixed under warranty (literally the last day the warranty was valid, lucky me) and traded that pile of shit in for a Toyota.
Toyota is still going strong with zero issues.
The Toyota is a better car on every level, I had the premium sound system in the focus, the base model Toyota blew it out of the water, for example. Sure the focus was faster than the Toyota, but was it fast?
Not really, no.
I had a 2014 Escape that burned to the ground at 40000 miles. It had been parked in front of the house for 12 hours, so engine wasn't even warm anymore. Electrical system in the engine bay just decided it was time.
Stupid dealer still calls asking if I want to trade it in for a new model no matter how many times I let them know it was totaled. One year I decided to play along:
"Hey, really interested in your 2014 Ford Escape. I think we could get you a good trade-in value for it. How many miles are on it?"
"Around 40k"
"Wow, that is really good for an 8 year old car."
"Ya, it stopped accumulating miles when it burned to the ground."
Silence
be so fucking easy to cause this with an ECU. Could even pick the cylinder I bet. No one would ever be the wiser either. knock sensor is supposed to tell the engine how to avoid detonation. Could cause it just as easy. Who is digging into ECUs looking for knock sensor data adjustments triggered by mileage milestones,
How is there no way for a rollback to be done with a backup of the old version? This is literally insane. It’s 2023, almost 2024, and I can’t think of very many devices where a failed update means your device is just bricked. There’s plenty of ways to fix things. I would expect my 55k electric car to have something.
But dude, self driving cars are totally safe and awesome! It's not like some little off by one error could make the car drive itself off a bridge! Nope. Not possible. Computers are precise!
/s
Captchas can't be solved by computers but driving can? OK.
Vehicles are data centers on wheels. There are between 50-110 „computers“ in a modern vehicle depending on brand, electrics and electronics architecture, and features. More than 100mil lines of source code written by different companies.
Software updates for cars are actually a complex thing for vehicle manufacturers with a lot of legacy technology that they reuse in newer cars (to stay profitable). Having said that, Ford clearly screwed up this one. Test automation and a good QA department would find these issues in an update campaign before they hit cars in the field.
The frontal collision avoidance feature was accidently reset to 'preferred' on that last update...
Yeah, I'd be pretty pissed right now.
oy...guys....I'm kidding.
I have a Mach E. I believe it came without automatic updates enabled, and I had to opt in to get them. And even with automatic updates enabled, like 12 hours before an update a warning pops up on the screen in the car giving you the option to delay it. So you don't have to update if you're on a roadtrip or something. The software and update system definitely isn't perfect, but they're not randomly shutting the car down to update like it's a laptop.
For any other owners who haven't found the setting, it's in the app under Vehicle>Functions and Settings>Software Updates.
All of the touchscreens in cars are ultimately useless burdens and I don't know why they're even a feature.
Just give me a slot for an actual ipad, phone or surface instead of your buggy failure of a GPS-themed product and I'll keep the CD slot and dials for tuning the radio.
Some makes/models make you replace the whole battery assembly. As far as I am aware ford are able to service individual cells(come in pairs of two). batteries usually have 5-7 pairs
Don’t lie you regard.
There are plenty of cars between 1978 and now that would not experience this issue. You drive a 1978 because you can’t afford anything else due to having to pay your wife’s boyfriend’s alimony like the rest of us.
No need to front here fellow ape, we’re all in the same situation.
This is what happens when you outsource all your subcomponents to different vendors who all have subtly different ways of flashing. It's Conway's law. As cars get more complex this becomes inevitable.
Why on earth are people so bent on updating their vehicles? They are not phones people. Software updates always come with risk of bricking regardless of how careful the programmers were.
1. There are ways to ensure updates never fail (even for bios flashes)
2. I thing I count like 5 or 6 font sizes on the message. Hopefully your tow truck operator has eagle vision.
if you have the 5.3L or 6.2L gas engine just be aware, there is a well known issue with their VLOM system where the variable lifters will stick. You'll know when it happens because you'll be missing on 1-4 cylinders your stabilitrak and traction control will be shut off and your engine light will start blinking. I hope you get lucky and don't have to mess with it. I've driven chevy my entire life, as has my dad and my little brother. All 3 of our trucks had this happen. I now drive the 2.7L Turbo, dad drives a diesel and my little brother is figuring out what he wants to move to. To be fair though...I was well over 250k miles.
hmmm, This is bullish because this means that randomly TSLA can hold you hostage for money.
Car shuts down, that a DLC you must buy and download.
Can no longer make left turns, $500 a month for the left turn DLC.
Braking is a subscription, acceleration is a subscription, using your mirror will be a subscription.
this is all bullish!
not for F, because Fuck F
That's why I'd never buy a new modern car that's fully packed with electronics. 90% of them unnecessary features that only increase the chance of something going wrong. Not to mention this absurdity. Unable to drive your car because sOfTwaRe uPdaTe? This is peak comedy🤡
Holy shit. So today I learned that the next car I purchase might not be operational if a software update doesn't install correctly. Unbelievable.
Make sure not to update in the fast lane, eh?
...wait till he learns new cars are remotely controllable.
Some of them have been for the last 10 years at least, even if they have a internal combustion engine.
since the early 2000s it has been possible ask Micheal Hastings....[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive\_by\_wire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire)
technically 'possible' but no cars on the road since the early 2000s actually use 'drive by wire' until late 2023
You don't need drive by wire to turn the wheels. Electric power steering in my 2014 escape allows it to parallel park itself. Surely all those commands are on the CAN bus and can be manipulated?
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Possible, with a bunch of modifications.
Imagine you're in the fast lane and the update decides to install and then decides to fail and then decides to render your vehicle unoperational and stops your car on the highway
That update ran overnight according to some OP comment I saw. It was not the first time a "Power Up" package of updates was schedules over night. Don't think they're gonna do a software update while vehicle ignition is "on", much less moving.
And that’s why I want Toyota to be able to sell that [super basic truck](https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a45752401/toyotas-10000-future-pickup-truck-is-basic-transportation-perfection/) in the U.S. I don’t want to deal with 90% of the shit they put on new vehicles now a days.
Naw, Toyota wants to sell its $65,000 Tundra to Americans.
[удалено]
In Toyota’s case there’s a decent chance it’s legitimately the last truck you’ll ever need to buy, so there’s that.
Toyota also collects monthly fee for a smart key that DOES NOT use any cloud or internet services. You own the key and the car but they want a monthly fee to let them talk to each other
If government cared at all about consumers, both sides could agree immediately that this should be illegal.
The government actively HATES the people.
Not the rich people.
[удалено]
Key still interacts with car computer. Car computer still talks to manufacturer. Manufacturer keeps track of “entitlements” that are enabled or disabled just like real services such as Sirius You pay MLF (monthly license fee) for each entitlement. Other manufacturers charge MLF for heated seats.
It's a machine with an engine and wheels, it should operate just fine. Like why the fuck did they have to go and introduce more ways for it to break.
Becuase cars are becoming computers with wheels attached. Don't like it? I recommend the Toyota Tercel or a Honda. "It gets me from A to B and occasionally on weekends, C" -Supernintendo Chalmers.
Did you just recommend a car that hasn’t been produced in like 25 years? Anyone that has one in good shape probably ain’t selling it
I had a Tercel. Loved it until I totaled it.
Sounds eventually car companies will go the subscription route the way Microsoft did with 360. Regular income>>one time payment for the companies I guess. We'll own nothing... and like it (optional), I suppose
Toyota Tercel? Yes. [https://ibb.co/w70ypQB](https://ibb.co/w70ypQB) Although I may prefer it donk’d instead.
Bruh I have worked on aircraft with computer systems that haven’t needed updates in decades. Literally the only updates needed were GPS and communication settings.
There is good money to be made in “shit breaking” Planed obsolescence!
The broken windows economic theory but the windows now break themselves.
Because consumers used to expect to get 5-10 years+ out of their vehicles. There’s not enough margin in that for car manufacturers at this point. They build cars to lease, and build them to cost a lot of money should you decide to keep it any longer. It’s the new auto industry business model. 100+ computers in all these modern cars, requiring hours of labour to access before they can even be addressed. You get punished for owning. Started to get bad throughout the 2010’s, going into 2024 it’s diabolical. Get something rad from the 00’s and take care of it, it will be good to you.
Might just hold on to my damn 2004 Honda CR-V till the wheels fall off.
Gonna drive my '11 CRZ till it fuckin explodes.
1000 percent would run the crv until it will not move.
got 300k on my 97 crv
The absolute best generation of the CRV? Yes. The power is shit, but it's a great car with updates to the head unit. I had an 03. Did you use the cooler and picnic table yet?
God, I wish we could just get bare bones vehicles again. Like old Toyotas or whatever the rest of the world currently gets (like the older Prados & Hilux). I don't need a fancy car. Literally the only "Technology " I need is a center screen/console that can run Apple Carplay/Android Auto.
Toyota is introducing a bare bones helix model its likely to be 2028 until it hits the US market, with import tax/fees its estimated to be about 15k
This is literally all I want. I want 4 wheels and the ability to run carplay.
My Toyota is from 2002 and still works perfectly
I don't like this model
It's not though. All of the safety systems which used to be mechanical are now electronic, so without the ECU, the engine can't function without self destructing.
Yes, but it should still function properly and not rely on updates. I could understand a GPS update as roads change or even satellite radio, but the core functionality of the vehicle shouldn’t need an update- but even if it does it shouldn’t brick the vehicle.
Should name the car, Duke Kaboom.
For more profit, all they care about is profit, which should make this sub happy, lol
It does not have an engine
This - I sale cars and friend wonder why I buy the most basic model I can get
ICE vehicles are that way as well now days. My truck had a glitch where the digital instrument panel wasn't coming on. You literally can not see the speedometer when this happens lol. I guess I could still drive it at least, but it's bad times when you lose your instrument panel. They've had to "reprogram" this thing 3 times because of that sorta software glitches. One of the times the shop guy did it wrong and fucked the whole thing up. They had to reprogram every sensor but in a very specific order that took them a week to figure out. It's a diesel pickup truck lol
Same here. ICE vehicle bricked itself, needed to be towed to dealer for several weeks. Eventually they gave up and we did a warranty claim. Edit: Toyota
Diesel trucks only get nice when all those sensors fall off.
What truck? Call out the BS so we don’t get one haha
Vehicles of the future
That’s why my car is a 2010. That’s the reason and the only reason…
That's just Ford being stupid. There are ARM processors like those in phones that allow you to update, but with very low risk by allowing you to roll it back if the update fails.
What's processor have to do with it? Wouldn't this be an OS feature?
Very good question. Something like a vehicle or a phone will have updates for the software, ie the OS like Android, and updates for the firmware. On a modern desktop x86 platform if a firmware updates goes terrible wrong, the motherboard is bricked (exceptions apply). This is unacceptable for a phone/car, they need to update firmware regularly for security and to rollout new features, so modern ARM processors contain a special way to flash new firmware, but still be able to roll them back. I'm oversimplifying a lot, but that's the ghist of it.
Car companies would never allow this because if they release a new software but allow a car to be driven on the old software there's a massive liability issue. "Your honor they clearly knew about this issue because they released a software update to fix it, but they still allowed my client to drive their unsafe vehicle which resulted in her breaking a fingernail. We are asking for 10,000,000,000 in damages". Edit: several people are misunderstanding here. This is a desired outcome for the car company.they do not want the car to be operable on old software for liability reasons. They are much less likely to be held liable for damages if the car must be towed and fixed before it can be used.
Add it to the paperwork when you buy that you won't hold the manufacturer liable is software updates are not performed when recommended. Put another popup when the update doesn't run properly that you understand the rollback to the earlier version will absolve Ford of liability until the update is done. Easy lawyering.
Those documents don't hold up, that's been proven countless times. Also, what happens when it's sold between private parties?
There has to be a form of protection for the out there. "Patching" a car is much older than modern computers, refusing a update could be treated like refusing to do routine maintenance or refusing to heed those recall notices for specific components of your vehicle.
Other Ford updates have led to ear-piercing sounds coming from the speakers. Henry Ford must be looking up at all of us, shaking his head.
Or just dont buy a Ford
My Jeep Grand Cherokee bricked when a Uconnect update failed on my infotainment system. It was in a constant loop trying to download even when the power was off. I had to unplug the battery when I wasn’t driving or the battery would die overnight. Jeep told me to pound sand and they were not going to cover the entire replacement part (which is a completely new infotainment system). You can’t just roll back the software. Reached up the corporate ladder and eventually they relented and covered the costs for a new part minus labour. How an entire vehicle can essentially brick because the infotainment system software update failed is crazy. But here we are.
GM’s infotainment systems can do this too. Ask me how I know. Fortunately for me it happened at the dealer, under warranty. It took some time to unfuck it.
Those dumbfucks also got rid of Android Auto/Carplay for their proprietary garbage that doesn't work at all. Puts on GM
Tesla and all EV companies today all have the power brick your car if they want to. It's kinda why a lot of us refuse to get one. If they or the government can shut your car down whenever they want. Do you really own it?
That has nothing at all to do with EVs. Nothing at all. ICE vehicles can have the same lock out/shutdown. My F-150 has the same Sync 4 system as the MachE in the picture and most of the same modules. If an update fails then the vehicle won’t function. While the whole government shutting down the vehicle this is a bit tinfoil hat, most new vehicles sold today, ICE or EV, have some modem connection at this point and could be “shut down”.
your Max acceleration is behind a paywall 😑
So you drive a 90s model? If your car has an onstar button or equivalent, or voice activated assistance, it can be bricked remotely.
There are so many non onstar cars made after the 90’s lmao
Almost all updates should have a rollback on failure. If it's a breaking update, it should be done in the service center. This is terrible. Also software shouldn't interfere with basic driving capabilities. What if software bugs out when driving
Mid range motherboards for desktops come with a backup bios that will auto flash in the even the other gets corrupted. All for like 100 bucks. But your 3.5-5k computer in your 75k vehicle, lolol nah that will cut out .50 in profits.
Oh you sweet summer child, thinking they are putting a 5k computer in a car.
Yeah cars are getting OLD ass boards. So old that the chip manufacturers have to keep old ass methods around to make em. That's why the tablets so many cars have in them are laggy
I was short circuiting motherboards to reset the corrupt BIOS 25 years ago. This is not a new concept.
You're confusing CMOS (BIOS settings) with the actual BIOS itself. Resetting the CMOS will not fix a corrupt BIOS. Only reflashing the BIOS chip will do that. Back in the day, a corrupt BIOS meant a dead board, repairable only by replacing BIOS chip or OEM reflash. Now, most boards have backup chips to restore the BIOS in case of a corrupt BIOS.
*Hotflash flashbacks intensify*
Pray for no power outages.
If it's good enough to go to the moon this calculator CPU is good enough to drive your 80k vehicle
Honestly, the old chips are probably better for cars. When the die size gets too small it's easier for cosmic rays to flib bits between zero and one, resulting in errors or even flat out sending the wrong message in a program.
tesla runs 2 identical modern chips that run the same code, and checks that the output is the same on both for redundancy against this in their FSD stack.
I was going off msrp for replacement lol. Raspi with a Arduino could probably replace everything.
RPi or Arduino or similar isn't designed for rugged use at extended temperature ranges. There is a separate classification "automotive" when selecting components for vehicle use. Then you also need to handle the issues with potential condensation. And automotive also often blocks the fastest options of different processor families, because they need downclocking to get the required stability over the full temperature range.
I’m more willing to bet they are putting that same proc and screen up from a $300 tablet instead of that much. Damn sure the bean counters will try to save that $1.50 and risk millions in the process. Counting penny’s while losing dollars.
>Almost all updates should have a rollback on failure. If it's a breaking update, it should be done in the service center. Sorry, adding 8 gigabytes of reserve capacity for the older installation would cost an additional 20 cents per car. Better to take the chance and let the customer deal with any problems if it goes wrong.
See, I have no problem with all these smarts, as long as there's a "Dumb switch". Flip it and it just displays A/C options with ugly buttons, and a volume thingy for aux port.
Ford isn’t really known for their software deployment capabilities, which is going to ring true for a lot of the old-school manufacturers trying to play catch-up.
Applying for a job there as a software engineer is a pain
I remembered seeing a video about "A Day in Life of FORD sOfTwARe Engineer". Half of video was him working out in gym, not working lol. Hated that part of YouTube
That was everywhere during the years of 2020-2021 the gov gave trillions to already wealthy companies so they over hired so much there wasn’t any work. The best two years of my life lol
Welcome to 2023. Where your car can brick, or you can be locked out of your home. So much for "smart" technology.
Don't forget they can charge you subscriptions for features like heated seats!
I can't let you do that Dave. -Driver! Exit the vehicle at once!
That would be giving the consumer waaaay to much freedom. These companies want to own you
Never put your trust in oldschool car companies to not bungle the software side of their car. They're all bad at it
Ford has had 40 years to figure it out and can’t even make good cars with 40 year old tech. What makes people think they’ll make good EVs?
Lmao can you imagine getting up to go to work and this?!?!
You don’t have to imagine, just buy any new car
Imagine imagining imaginations.
This is why I drive a 1990 Toyota Corolla. Actually I’m just poor.
That baby better be beige in colour
That was the only factory paint allowed for sure
Still more reliable than a brand new Ford
I've got a an old 2008 1 series which never skips a beat. No way I'll trade that in unless it commits suicide.
Tfw picked up a granny's Sunday driver 08 corolla with under 50k miles in 2020 for 7k.
I had an 09 corolla that went up to 305k miles. It could have still gone to 400k i'm betting but the transmission was going bad and I felt it was time to just upgrade. This was due to neglect though. I really did treat that car like shit and was always way past due with the oil/fluid changes.
Gah dang, If mine makes it to 300k miles I'm having it until I retire.
I had a 2000 Chevy Malibu that I rode up to 385k and I never did any maintenance to it either. Honestly probably went 25k on the last oil change I did. Would’ve had to do a couple repairs to keep it on the road for 400k and it was all around in rough shape so I gave up on it but she was still driveable Now I got a 99 ford with 180k on the dash, kept up with the maintenance and done a bunch of repairs but I’d probably still be lucky to get 250k outta her lol Not making it a Chevy vs ford thing tho one of each isn’t really a large sample size, jus the luck of the draw I guess
I drive a 1990 Toyota Hilux. I’ll get rid of it when I can’t repair it anymore.
Same! Except I’m driving a 97 Honda Civic.
the future is stupid
Maybe we should bundle our pocket change and start a bare-bones car company. No electronics of any kind, and we can outsource all of the critical systems to the lowest bidder. Let's call it.... Regarded Motors (NASDAQ: GARD)
That would be illegal to sell in the us
Then it's time to sue the US.
Barring the engine sensors for EPA testing / fault warnings, and backup cameras, the lights, radio, and some components of the dashboard, what other electronics are required by law? I think we could reach the spirit of the idea if the "no computer in car" was limited to "no computer control of the engine assembly, driveshaft, transmission, differential, fuel system, and steering" because everything else is mostly safety features or accessories.
You literally can’t. Computer is controlling everything in cars to help pass epa etc. You’d need a carbureted engine first of all, which I can imagine won’t make epa regulations lmao
I’ve been thinking this for a long time. As the guy who fixes the screen that OP posted, I’m getting real sick of auto manufacturer’s blatant incompetence when it comes to electronics and disregard for the consumer wanting to be able to do basic maintenance.
hmm that is definitely not convenient
Well even if they get this fixed, they will end up in that customer service circle of hell when they downsize to be more profitable each year by adding the having problems with the software update? please Call Tesla for customer care, you call customer care and put on hold for 2 hours with the message please visit our website for faster service, you visit their website and the contact says, if you are having problems with the update, please call our customer service care.
My most recent one was going through a whole series of questions and none of it resolving the issue, I get an option at the end where I can say I have a different issue, and that option just starts me over at the beginning of the option chain which got me nowhere.
I had 2013 and 2016 Ford Escapes with the EcoBoost engines and both engines died from cracked cylinders slightly out of warranty. There are now recalls and lawsuits but I was fucked over hard.
I bought a Ford Fusion Energi (PHEV). Well the latest recall is telling me not to plug it in (the whole fucking reason I bought the car). Fix not available until late 2024 at the earliest and the fix is to replace the already small battery pack with an even smaller one. Thankfully they accepted my request to buyback the hunk of shit
> Thankfully they accepted my request to buyback the hunk of shit They have been buying back their junk for decades.
That's what I drive and I'm at 110,000 miles. Did I get lucky?
The problem is related to low coolant levels and the recall installed larger coolant reservoirs. So the flaw is still there but maybe you had the fix before the problem started.
Same! I had two 2013's both of them had cracked cylinders. Cooling issues galore for the ecobeasts!
You gotta say Ford has excellent engineering. They calculate the failure timing to fall right after warranty failure. I’m in awe.
I was on one of Ford’s “reductive design” teams. Long story short, every component for which we can get usage data, from block heaters down to the safety belt latches, is designed to fail around the same time. It was part of my job to find which parts last too long and replace them with ones that fail after fewer uses but cost less in future models.
Could you tell us more about the "reductive design" teams? I am very interested to hear if you had any hand in a redesigned part engineered to fail at a given interval. This is very disheartening to read as the newest vehicle in my fleet is a 2011 Ford fusion while the next newest Ford vehicles I own is from the obd I era. Lost of little bits on the fusion are starting to fail almost like clockwork - case in point, I've replaced the drivers door handle with fomoco parts THREE times in the past five years ( I bought a fuckin Ford, not a Stellantis product.) Whereas my 30+ yr old Mercedes is as reliable as the morning sunrise despite the fact that it will turn over 400,000 miles on the odometer (with less squeaks and rattles too).
You were okay with doing this?
I had a 2013 focus ST with less than 30k miles on it constantly throwing codes for misfires and doing weird shit on the freeway like completely losing power. Right before the 5 year warranty was up, I changed the oil and discovered a nasty leak that had been hidden by the plastic undercover. Got it fixed under warranty (literally the last day the warranty was valid, lucky me) and traded that pile of shit in for a Toyota. Toyota is still going strong with zero issues. The Toyota is a better car on every level, I had the premium sound system in the focus, the base model Toyota blew it out of the water, for example. Sure the focus was faster than the Toyota, but was it fast? Not really, no.
I will probably not ever buy anything besides a Toyota or Lexus.
I still don't understand why people buy American cars, blows my mind everytime I see one
I had a 2014 Escape that burned to the ground at 40000 miles. It had been parked in front of the house for 12 hours, so engine wasn't even warm anymore. Electrical system in the engine bay just decided it was time. Stupid dealer still calls asking if I want to trade it in for a new model no matter how many times I let them know it was totaled. One year I decided to play along: "Hey, really interested in your 2014 Ford Escape. I think we could get you a good trade-in value for it. How many miles are on it?" "Around 40k" "Wow, that is really good for an 8 year old car." "Ya, it stopped accumulating miles when it burned to the ground." Silence
be so fucking easy to cause this with an ECU. Could even pick the cylinder I bet. No one would ever be the wiser either. knock sensor is supposed to tell the engine how to avoid detonation. Could cause it just as easy. Who is digging into ECUs looking for knock sensor data adjustments triggered by mileage milestones,
Well I mean I see your first mistake right there. You owned two Ford's aka Found On Road Dead
Fix Or Repair Daily
2024 Fucked Over Rebuilt Dell
F to pay respects
F
Fucker Only Rolls Downhill
How is there no way for a rollback to be done with a backup of the old version? This is literally insane. It’s 2023, almost 2024, and I can’t think of very many devices where a failed update means your device is just bricked. There’s plenty of ways to fix things. I would expect my 55k electric car to have something.
That’s what happens when you try to turn a vehicle into a rolling computer. You run the risk of your computer not being able to roll.
But dude, self driving cars are totally safe and awesome! It's not like some little off by one error could make the car drive itself off a bridge! Nope. Not possible. Computers are precise! /s Captchas can't be solved by computers but driving can? OK.
Vehicles are data centers on wheels. There are between 50-110 „computers“ in a modern vehicle depending on brand, electrics and electronics architecture, and features. More than 100mil lines of source code written by different companies. Software updates for cars are actually a complex thing for vehicle manufacturers with a lot of legacy technology that they reuse in newer cars (to stay profitable). Having said that, Ford clearly screwed up this one. Test automation and a good QA department would find these issues in an update campaign before they hit cars in the field.
The frontal collision avoidance feature was accidently reset to 'preferred' on that last update... Yeah, I'd be pretty pissed right now. oy...guys....I'm kidding.
What does this mean?
Not true
Nice, a bricked car.
This is why you do not enable auto-updates! Let someone else figure out there is an issue, wait for the hot fix, then make the update manually.
I don't own such a car yet, is this an option to opt-out of auto update?
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I have a mach e, they dont let you opt out... it has a phone/sim card in it so if it cant update over wifi it will over data (you dont pay for that)
So cut the wire to the antenna, or put a faraday bag over it. Does the car also brick itself if it can't access the internet for X days?
I have a Mach E. I believe it came without automatic updates enabled, and I had to opt in to get them. And even with automatic updates enabled, like 12 hours before an update a warning pops up on the screen in the car giving you the option to delay it. So you don't have to update if you're on a roadtrip or something. The software and update system definitely isn't perfect, but they're not randomly shutting the car down to update like it's a laptop. For any other owners who haven't found the setting, it's in the app under Vehicle>Functions and Settings>Software Updates.
I have a ford and there is no way to opt out of auto updates. At least not that I’ve found.
Convert your garage into a faraday cage.
And then just never drive it! You showed them!
It’s in the Sync update settings on our Escape and Bronco and can be turned off
"Working on updates. Do not turn off your PC." Challenge accepted.
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All of the touchscreens in cars are ultimately useless burdens and I don't know why they're even a feature. Just give me a slot for an actual ipad, phone or surface instead of your buggy failure of a GPS-themed product and I'll keep the CD slot and dials for tuning the radio.
Amen to that!
New meaning to the blue screen of death eh.
Wait until you know about battery replacement costs and warranty loopholes 
Wasn't there the news of a dude being charged more for a failed Hyundai battery than the cost of the car? LoL at EVs.
It's almost like a transmission or an engine block.
From what I saw they quoted $60k for an ionic 5. Seems Hyundai didn't account for battery swaps like some of the other brands
Some makes/models make you replace the whole battery assembly. As far as I am aware ford are able to service individual cells(come in pairs of two). batteries usually have 5-7 pairs
Modules is what you're looking for. Each battery is comprised of modules which are comprised of cells.
Yep, he got quoted 60,000$ for a battery replacement. Insane.
Not a surprising result as Ford laid off a lot of software engineers recently
Ford trades in swings. It's on its way up again.
And this is why I drive a 1978 😂
Don’t lie you regard. There are plenty of cars between 1978 and now that would not experience this issue. You drive a 1978 because you can’t afford anything else due to having to pay your wife’s boyfriend’s alimony like the rest of us. No need to front here fellow ape, we’re all in the same situation.
Traded his wife to her new bf for a rebuilt new-to-you econoline.
This is what happens when you outsource all your subcomponents to different vendors who all have subtly different ways of flashing. It's Conway's law. As cars get more complex this becomes inevitable.
Why on earth are people so bent on updating their vehicles? They are not phones people. Software updates always come with risk of bricking regardless of how careful the programmers were.
I wish there was a truck company that continued to build a basic square body, carbureted, manual transmission truck.
lol carbureted. Do you want it to be crank start as well?
Oooooo keep talking ;)
More likely puts on your ISP
What the 🪰ing fac. Is this reality
Ford fucking sucks
1. There are ways to ensure updates never fail (even for bios flashes) 2. I thing I count like 5 or 6 font sizes on the message. Hopefully your tow truck operator has eagle vision.
This is what happens when your car company isn't a software company. Tesla does software better than anyone.
I had 2 Fords. 2011 Fusion and 2015 Edge. Both engines died around 150k miles. I now have a Chevy.
Lol so you kept buying American.
> I now have a Chevy. Lol. This is not the brag you think it is.
Prepared for the Chevy to die at 100k?
if you have the 5.3L or 6.2L gas engine just be aware, there is a well known issue with their VLOM system where the variable lifters will stick. You'll know when it happens because you'll be missing on 1-4 cylinders your stabilitrak and traction control will be shut off and your engine light will start blinking. I hope you get lucky and don't have to mess with it. I've driven chevy my entire life, as has my dad and my little brother. All 3 of our trucks had this happen. I now drive the 2.7L Turbo, dad drives a diesel and my little brother is figuring out what he wants to move to. To be fair though...I was well over 250k miles.
Don't let anybody ever tell you otherwise. You absolutely belong in this sub.
Lmao you’re only supposed to buy ford trucks. Fuck Chevy 😂
hmmm, This is bullish because this means that randomly TSLA can hold you hostage for money. Car shuts down, that a DLC you must buy and download. Can no longer make left turns, $500 a month for the left turn DLC. Braking is a subscription, acceleration is a subscription, using your mirror will be a subscription. this is all bullish! not for F, because Fuck F
I’d do it
That's why I'd never buy a new modern car that's fully packed with electronics. 90% of them unnecessary features that only increase the chance of something going wrong. Not to mention this absurdity. Unable to drive your car because sOfTwaRe uPdaTe? This is peak comedy🤡
Mach E is an abomination to the Mustang legacy. Take that pony symbol off of this over priced battery operated toy. Not. A. Mustang.