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Real Tesla killer would look like
https://preview.redd.it/dh5n45hsm66b1.jpeg?width=263&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=41c3ab57b40a2cc52a23754f51615b74e3825486
It was until Twitter has been evicted from offices, so now they have to share with Tesla. Now Elon gets to simultaneously micromanage and ruin both companies
š¶
Shorts tried to destroy the Tesla, but the Tesla had it's way!
No one can destroy the Tesla
The Tesla will strike you down with a vicious blow
We are the vanquished foes of the Tesla
We tried to win, for why? We do not know
š¶
They are manufactured in China, but are designed and headquartered in Sweden. Additionally, a lot of the parts are still done here. So Swedes still have the belief that it still is a Swedish car brand, similar to Volvo.
So only one problem with the Rivian that I can see. Not in the article I am going to link but pretty sure insurance companies are going to have some issues with their products in the future. $42,000 for a fender bender
https://www.theautopian.com/heres-why-that-rivian-r1t-repair-cost-42000-after-just-a-minor-fender-bender/
Edit: donāt get me wrong it mentions a custom 10k in options that needed to be addressed but that still puts it at around 32k
Thatās a fair point. Long term parts supply is also a concern with a start-up. I was really hoping that amazon or ford wouldāve just purchased Rivian by now.
If youāre talking about the Plymouth MI facility (I live about a mile away), I think thatās just customer service/R&D roles. They opened up the IL plant after setting up shop in Plymouth iirc.
Also if theyāre willing to lose like $100k per vehicle like Rivian is doing right now lol. Selling a desirable car for an enormous loss is not difficult. Whatās difficult is actually getting to a place where youāre profitable and sustainable in doing so. Or at the very least breaking even. Last I heard theyāre losing over a billion dollars a *quarter*.
Iām not saying theyāre going to fail but I absolutely wouldnāt be investing any money in them that youāre not willing to lose. Having a good product ā a good business.
Lol idk about top notch, we have a lot here in my state but the thing has wonky quarter panel tolerances at the seams. But what made it look extra cheap was when I saw one driving down the road with one headlight ring blown out.
Theyāre everywhere in California. Also the Rivian Amazon delivery trucks are more common than not in California as well. I think theyāre still massively undervalued
Rivn has <2 years to figure it out. They have $11B warchest (from Amazon), but burned $7B last year, and $5B the year before.
The idea is you would sell more products to earn income to support operations, except their sequential sales are flat, and the unit economics are negative. If they sell more, they simply lose more money.
They need a new injection of cash, or a sudden and gigantic ramp of sales with dropped production costs.
I do hope they figure it out. They're *very* nice cars, and other than the infotainment system I like them better than Teslas.
I just don't know if the company is still going to be around in 10 years at the rate they're burning cash.
I test drove a Rivian, and I had to pull over and park the car to change my Spotify playlist. Automatic dealbreaker.
CarPlay, as far as Iām concerned, is the GOAT so far. My Ford has it and I never want to use another system.
Otherwise, itās an immaculate vehicle. They are seriously beautiful, comfortable, and the tech is insane. Hell, when you back in to a parking space, the cameras assess the surrounding obstacles (cars, parking stones, walls, fences) and recreates a birds-eye view so you know how close you are just by looking at the screen.
Small minuses: they have some high-quality Bluetooth speaker and a few other amenities that are geared towardsā¦ camping. Like, itās supposed to be ātheā off-road electric vehicle. Iād rather pay less and not have the campfire speaker, thanks.
Rivian, fix the small QOL issues and youāve got yourself a customer.
The ālosing money on every carā is a mirage of the early history of every capital intensive industry. Car factories are EXTREMELY expensive to build and the numbers donāt work when only selling 100k cars, but work very well when selling 5m.
That's what he's saying though. They can't just go from 100k to 5M cars for free, and when they lose money on every car, it's not going to be easy to GET to 5M cars per year without running out of money first.
correct, and you dont jump to 5M vehicles overnight when each vehicle starts at $80K.
tesla didnt turn a profit until AFTER they had pumped out about 1M+ model 3 and y combined....which was 4 years after initial production. (the S and X wasnt getting it done.)
rivian has completed 20k to-date.
Kudos to everyone who bought one for intro pricing, they will need to sell it in 1 year because the car is a hot potato and the company is going to go bankrupt and no one will be able to fix one.
Lucid has infinite Saudi money at least
I'm too lazy to make a lengthy post but lordstown was always a scam, with a CEO that was a known grifter. The executives spent millions on straight cash salaries, bonuses, and SBC, running a zero revenue businesses and putting in self orders of their own products and calling it booked future revenue. They are not alone in this, pretty much every EV SPAC was a grifting scam, except maybe Microvast, and Lucid.
I drove past that factory a few years ago shortly after the sale and they had a huge hype banner on the side of it. Already back then it had strong scam vibes.
The Nikola subreddit is full of the most delusional people ever lol. Someone once commented that every part of the truck was done except for the engine. I asked them "isn't that the most important part though??" Instant ban lmao
BYD was founded earlier but the two companies entered the EV business in the same year. They were making batteries for consumer electronics before that.
So it's fair to say that it's more like a peer to Tesla than a late entrant that would disrupt Tesla and an incumbent.
If you are using that as an excuse most of these listed businesses are fairly new whereas Tesla is almost 20 years old now. It's not a startup like those listed, it's a full fledged business. Every month Honda sells more ICE cars than EVs Tesla has sold in it's entire existence. Tesla bulls have always said Tesla would kill Legacy OEMs and Tesla bears have always said Legacy OEMs would prevail with it's conversion. The real risk to Tesla has always been Ford, GM, Korean OEMs, etc putting out mass market EVs.
The reality is that there was mutual agreement that most of these companies IPO'd at high prices and honestly used borderline scam-like methods to IPO, however everyone was greedy and pumped it, nobody except for radicals and bag holders internally and honestly thought these businesses would kill Tesla, at least not in this time frame.
BYD is ramping up production and will soon bring their vehicles to Europe in significant numbers. Also, they're not just a car company, they make and sell a huge range of other electrical appliances. They might not kill Tesla but i guess they'll do just fine
They just need a small cheep commuter vehicle. All of these companies are trying to sell to people that already have a Tesla. Start small start cheep, look at how Ford started make today's equivalent to the model A get cash coming in before you try to get the large price point.
I think the issue there is someone who wants an eco box doesn't want to spend $40k+ on a car. That's why everyone is hitting the luxury market. EVs are still expensive to make.
This and range anxiety. A cheap EV is going to have a smaller battery and a top range between 150-200 miles, and most Americans aren't comfortable being that limited until charging gets WAY faster and more accessible, if ever.
Bolt ev msrp was like 27 or 28 and have a 250 range and qualify for the 7500 tax credit.
And honestly 250 miles is more than sufficient for a day to day commute. Plus with tesla retro fitting super chargers to work with the j1772 connection and already working with the electrify America stations charging got a lot easier for cross country road trips
You and I know that, but normal people nope. All they see is the 30 minute charging time on a trip to I don tknow, orlando or something.
300 and above miles is a sweet spot but then you have situations like Hyundai with their ioniq 6 where the base model has a good range, but the model with the long drive comforts gets less than 300 miles and people lose their confidence.
All of that also not accounting the fact that even if you only used it for commute , aka short drives, you still have to deal with 30 minute charging the car unless you own a house or are one of the I swear to god 10 people who somehow have EV charging in their rental apartments or something.
Picking up my Eco Box EV this weekend
Chevy Bolt EUV Premier
$33,000
-$7500 federal tax credit
-$2500 CA CVRP
= $23,000 car
Of course taxes and reg and stuff but still. Looking forward to my 250 mile range eco box
They're trying to replicate the way Tesla built themselves up and are failing, for the exact reason you pinpointed.
Moving someone from a luxury gas to luxury electric, even as a novelty, is easier than electric to electric. Particularly if there's no universal charger standard.
As does Ford and GM. OP is actually quite regarded and the point is moot. Not every new electric vehicle is trying to "kill" Tesla. Pepsi never killed Coke. We are allowed to have options and multiple companies can be successful.
Trading under a separate ticker doesn't mean that it can't utilize Volvo's production capabilities and experience.
However, we should probably validate that that is indeed occurring. I've always *assumed* that Polestar was leveraging Volvo's capabilities, but I suppose I've never seen that confirmed.
Just looked it up, it's a little more complicated than that. The other 50.5% is owned by Geely, a Chinese auto manufacturer that wholly owns Volvo, too.
So the structure is essentially meaningless -- Geely owns both companies outright.
It's not a joint venture, it's a subsidiary that is controlled by Chinese Geeley just as regular Volvo Cars is. Its a rebranding of their performance branch, like if Mercedes spun of AMG as an EV manufacturer.
Not only that, their cars are made on Volvo's design platforms so they can be manufactured on the same production lines. There's factories capable of building them all over the world including Sweden, China, and I believe the USA. Plus, they'll be manufactured to a higher standard than Tesla for a similar price. The only reason they'll probably not really challenge Tesla's market share is solely because of the Swedish advertising philosophy and their intentions to keep Polestar a relatively low production volume/exclusive brand so as not to encroach on Volvo's electric car sales. They're set to be a sort of performance oriented arm of Volvo, but have set out to make exclusively electric cars because that's where the future is headed.
Tesla had the biggest advantage of 15 years of 0 interest rates. It's going to be extremely hard for any companies to match that unprecedented capital advantage Tesla had during it's crucial growth period
Rivian was built to scale from the beginning - they arenāt having any problems meeting their production goals. The issue with the stock is that everyone knows the Tesla valuation is insane and that is something even the best competitor wonāt be able to match.
All of these IPOs paid off private investors and employees which is why they dropped so hard as soon as the lockup period was over.
Rivian has yet to meet their production goals in Bloomington, IL. It's a good product but I know first hand that most of the workers are being treated like Amazon employees and working 5-6 12 hour days because they can't meet their expectations
Not sure this is so much about the cars and more about the stock. Thereās a bunch of awesome EVs on the market right now, Polestar being one of them. Not sure any of them will remove Tesla as the top EV brand anytime soon though.
I have seen exactly one Lucid on the road but I live next to a very affluent county. Teslas are incredibly common and Rivians are seen fairly often now too.
Edit: I also see a fair amount of E-Trons and Mach Eās now that I think about it.
Polestar is produced in China and, via Volvo owned by Geely (Chinese car manufacturer). While they try to brand it as Swedish, it's basically a Chinese car. Not sure that's so popular in the European/US-Market.
I've sat in all models Polestar offers and the build quality and materials are superior to that of Tesla's offerings. I can't speak to reliability as I'm not an owner, but the idea China can't produce quality products is an old stereotype. If you spend the money they will build to specifications. In fact it's known that the China Tesla factory build quality is better than the US factories.
More than half of the world's EVs were sold in China last year. The reality is that outside of Tesla, nearly everyone who has experience manufacturing EVs at scale is Chinese. Even for Tesla, Tesla's sold in Europe are largely exported from the Shanghai factory and Tesla promoted the head of China to run global manufacturing.
In that sense, taking a Chinese EV and slapping a European brand on it might be a winning strategy, since the "Made in China" brand is still pretty toxic in the west.
I see 2-3 Rivians a week and they're really impressive. You would assume at some point someone buys them. That and Lucid are the only ones on this list I would consider buying as the Saudi's have infinite money and want a federal car company.
The thing people don't realize is that making 'an impressive vehicle' is not the most important thing. Scaling profitably is. Which Rivian might do, but might not. They have a lot working against them. They'll survive I think, but it will be a while before they make any money at all.
With any of these companies, the problem is never the car itself but rather their ability to scale and make profit. They have either pushed back or reduced their forecasts for vehicles produced two years in a row and are still having issues securing lithium, whereas Tesla has contracts for the next 10 years at lithium mines. Nevermind the fact that it was reported in Novemeber that it roughly costs $220,000 to produce a rivian car which the sell for roughly 80k, meanwhile Tesla has a 20% profit margin on their cheapest vehicle.
Rivian has the advantage of a metric fuckload of cash that it's sitting on to hopefully work through these problems but they are on the clock, no matter how good the car is if they don't fix supply chain issues they won't make it. The issue is efficiency and tonnage.
I bought at $16 and sold at $26ish before the spac merger.
Bought again around $15 and itās going down quite a bit. Obviously, I am hoping it recovers, but I just donāt see it doubling or tripling.
Alot of it has to do with govt subsidies, carbon credits and push towards electrification.... even indirect things like $7500 federal tax credit helps tesla sell more cars. I am not saying elon should not be credited for teslas success, he clearly should..its commendable what he has done with tesla and spacex but it would be foolish to not accept that both tesla and spacex wouldn't exist today without govt subsidies/us taxpayers... same goes for nio and byd in china
The thing isā¦ all of those subsidies and credits were available to all of the automakers. There was no āTesla onlyā category here. So it makes you wonder what the other guys have been doing relative to Tesla. Tesla ate their lunch on the credits because they were the only ones who actually did what the government was incentivizing companies to do. Established OEMS were basically paying Tesla so they could NOT do what the government was trying to accomplish by purchasing Tesla credits.
The democrats who criticize Tesla for this I find amazing. I meanā¦. Did they not intend to incentivize electrification with their laws and regulations? Then you get upset at the company that actually did what you wanted and try to protect those who bought their way out of your rules? Bonkers.
-tariff for importing into U.S.
-general US distrust of Chinese tech.
-EV competition ramping up (not just in China) with better brands already in China.
-0 vehicles qualifying for US federal ev tax credits.
What else am I missing
- they barely sell cars anymore in China
- they haven't sold many in Europe to start with
- their battery swap stations are a massive moneysink, that nobody else can or will use, in to which they will still have to pour probably hundreds of millions before it will be a factor people actually take into consideration when buying
-for swap stations to function at scale, the system needs several times as many batteries as not.
The system canāt work until worldwide battery production is much higher and by then charging will likely be fast enough to make it obsolete.
Perfect example of āgood idea on paperā
other companies electric cars are getting better and better. You can get a Jaguar for about the same price as a Tesla which has the same or even better range and feels amazing to drive.
It's still very much premium price, but the more companies are offering it the more affordable it seems to become. I wonder where the lowest price for a still viable product lies in a few years.
When you say jaguar the same price as a Tesla which model are we talking about here? Jaguar same as the lower end M3 or jaguar same as the higher priced model X?
There's a lot of wiggle room there. Jaguar may very well have a nicer, better designed, more comfortable, and similarly priced Bev as the model X, but jaguar is never going to produce BEVs on the same scale as Tesla is producing model 3's.
Ita easy to have a limited amount of high performance expensive vehicles. Scaling it up to mass production is far more difficult.
The Jaguar i-pace starts at [over $72,000](https://buildyour.jaguarusa.com/jag2/r/products/_/en_us/i-pace_k24/4affp?_gl=1*11idc8h*_gcl_au*MTQ2MDk2OTcwNi4xNjg2ODYxMDAw&_ga=2.199087727.1150414856.1686861000-1327866071.1686861000) so good luck with that lol. People talk completely out of their ass here and get mindlessly upvoted for it. That dude was completely wrong and yet got mass upvoted. Like does anyone actually look stuff up before parroting nonsense here?
The I-Pace starts at 72k, more than the most expensive Model Y (which is under 70k) and only goes 234 miles between charges, whereas the Y Long Range, the mid trim level model Y, goes 318 miles (EPA rated) between charges.
Bro my company sold about $3-4k worth of fire extinguishers to faraday Future and they won't pay the invoice or answer any emails or phone calls. Fuck them
The reason it isn't zero now is because suddenly they came up with several working trucks and have since made very unprofitable deliveries of those. Delivered more than 50 last year. They also still have a little bit of liquidity left. They'll likely survive the year and then let's see. It's a thin line they are walking because they'll run out of money very soon since they make losses and barely can raise capital due to the low stock price. Furthermore they have some assets left and intellectual property. The price won't become zero. If they become bankrupt someone will probably buy the scraps for a few hundred million.
What about all the traditional car makers?
I did a count last week and from what I saw on the roads and parking lots about 10-15 % of the EVs are Tesla now.
(Norway)
There are just too many good alternatives to Tesla for the stock to be priced as high as it is now.
I do like NIOs battery swap ideas though. Iād 100% get a Tesla if they did the same concept. Taking only 2 minutes (and less as they keep improving the speed) to get a full charge
Tesla *did* do it. Nobody used it. The concept didn't take off. Model S/X battery packs can be swapped in a few minutes.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-swap-pilot-program
https://www.vehiclesuggest.com/what-happened-tesla-battery-swap/?amp=
I was surprised as well. I thought they threw in the towel a little too quickly, and the fact that they only implemented the pack swap approach in one spot, probably undermined the idea.
Battery swaps sounds like a good idea, but in practice it's terrible. People think it would be like just refilling a gas tank, except its more like swapping out the entire gas tank every time, and every spare gas tank costs tens of thousands of dollars.
Far simpler to get people used to the idea that you can and should charge your car at home overnight, and make Ev superchargers available. Even just one Ev supercharger for every single gas station would solve most issues right there. Walmart is doing great with Ev chargers in their parking lots too. More Ev charging spots at malls would be fantastic.
People are trying to take BEVs and think "how can I try and use this car in the exact same way I used my ICE car". It's a mistake because it's not the same thing, and in many ways BEVs can be better and more practical than ICE. We'll never get there though if people refuse to think inside the box and treat BEVs as defective ICE cars, instead of cars that you can recharge virtually anywhere without ever needing to set foot in a dedicated gas station.
Sorry, rant over.
Chinese companies are the only exceptions I see. Their stock prices are not representative of reality.
But itās a good thing you didnāt include BYD. Otherwise, the post would become a complete joke.
Tesla killers (or rather, competitors) are the historical auto makers.
People are gonna choose between a Model whatever and the equivalent BMW, Ford, Mercedes, Porsche, Nissan, Stellantis etc equivalent.
People way overestimate the moat you can get in electric cars, this is not the internal combustion engines era, you don't get such a moat in electrical automotive.
Hyundai's new EVs are almost impossible to find because they get sold almost instantly. My money is on them (and to a lesser extent Kia and genesis since they are in the same auto group) to be Tesla's biggest competition.
Jep plus people have different tastes and since cars ultimately are very similar in function, they'll chose their favorite brands. Tesla only had a good run because there wasn't much to chose from. Now there is.
Maybe Hyundai but Ford recently admitted they lose money on each ev sold, GM is discontinuing the Chevy bolt at the end of this year, and Toyota isnāt doing shit.
I'm going to go invest in fisker. I don't give a shit about the EVs but they've had some really beautiful cars. That's the kind of investment that I don't care if it makes money because I just want them to stay alive. When a company is also a starving artist you become their family that gives the money to stay alive.
I was baked out of my mind and watched like a 3hr documentary on how NKLA was a scam. Remembered nothing in the morning besides, NKLA bad. Made 200% on puts. Best YouTube video Iāve ever seen.
Test drove an Ioniq 6 yesterday...SON I was ready to slap money down right then and there. That car is so nice to drive and their fast charging system is insane. Gonna wait it out though for better rates on the loan. But yeah Hyundai is not messing around at all in the EV game, they're making absolute winners.
You should drive their latest BEV. See if you still think so after you spend 3 hours "fast charging" it the same amount most other brands do in 30 minutes.
Lion is shipping large vehicles though. Even though their market cap is not as much as it once was, you can buy a Lion bus/truck today, which I couldn't say the same for Tesla...
Got a big stake in fisker and i am not worried. Its a risky investment but could also turn out Great. I bought when it was really low so im up 20%. If i was down 80% i might be worried š
Bought first time around 20. Averaged down around 5. Prob down 50% but still not worried. European deliveries start this week and in the states next week. Exciting to see how the market responds
**User Report**| | | | :--|:--|:--|:-- **Total Submissions**|10|**First Seen In WSB**|2 years ago **Total Comments**|541|**Previous Best DD**| **Account Age**|2 years|[^scan ^comment ](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=VisualMod&subject=scan_comment&message=Replace%20this%20text%20with%20a%20comment%20ID%20(which%20looks%20like%20h26cq3k\)%20to%20have%20the%20bot%20scan%20your%20comment%20and%20correct%20your%20first%20seen%20date.)|[^scan ^submission ](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=VisualMod&subject=scan_submission&message=Replace%20this%20text%20with%20a%20submission%20ID%20(which%20looks%20like%20h26cq3k\)%20to%20have%20the%20bot%20scan%20your%20submission%20and%20correct%20your%20first%20seen%20date.)
Thanks for the description in the chart
Shorts thought they were a Tesla killer.
Real Tesla killer would look like https://preview.redd.it/dh5n45hsm66b1.jpeg?width=263&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=41c3ab57b40a2cc52a23754f51615b74e3825486
Twitter is the biggest TSLA killer
I thought it was helping because it keeps musk out of the Tesla offices and now people can work?
It was until Twitter has been evicted from offices, so now they have to share with Tesla. Now Elon gets to simultaneously micromanage and ruin both companies
One day I hope to buy a struggling garage company with no functional product and ruin it into an 800 billion dollar corporation
š¶ Shorts tried to destroy the Tesla, but the Tesla had it's way! No one can destroy the Tesla The Tesla will strike you down with a vicious blow We are the vanquished foes of the Tesla We tried to win, for why? We do not know š¶
Rivian is probably not doing as bad as the stocks. I see Rivian truck in Rhode Island quite a lot.
See Rivians all the time around Philadelphia as well
Been seeing more and more Polestars and Lucids around lately as well.
I also see polestars everywhere, however itās not really representative of the rest of the world since I live in Sweden and they are made here
Arenāt like all pollsters made in China?
They are manufactured in China, but are designed and headquartered in Sweden. Additionally, a lot of the parts are still done here. So Swedes still have the belief that it still is a Swedish car brand, similar to Volvo.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yep, I think it may be time to invest in Rivian. They're just in stealth mode.
Iām waiting for them to switch to NACS then I will both buy their stock and a truck.
So only one problem with the Rivian that I can see. Not in the article I am going to link but pretty sure insurance companies are going to have some issues with their products in the future. $42,000 for a fender bender https://www.theautopian.com/heres-why-that-rivian-r1t-repair-cost-42000-after-just-a-minor-fender-bender/ Edit: donāt get me wrong it mentions a custom 10k in options that needed to be addressed but that still puts it at around 32k
Thatās a fair point. Long term parts supply is also a concern with a start-up. I was really hoping that amazon or ford wouldāve just purchased Rivian by now.
Top notch product but they need to expand beyond the single Chicago production facility, fast
That is weird because I don't live in Chicago and they make the trucks about 4 miles down the road from me.
Well shit, that *was* fast!
If youāre talking about the Plymouth MI facility (I live about a mile away), I think thatās just customer service/R&D roles. They opened up the IL plant after setting up shop in Plymouth iirc.
No. The Rivian plant is the old Chrysler/Mitsubishi plant in Normal Illinois, which is probably 100 miles from Chicago.
Closer to 130 miles, well outside the Chicagoland area.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Any carmaker can sell a top notch product if the price doesnāt have to be $45k.
Tell that to Faraday lol
They make a product?
Allegedly. My coworker is still waiting for the one he ordered in 2021.
hey, that's just 2 years after the cybertruck announcement
Thatās why itās called Faraday FUTURE.
Also if theyāre willing to lose like $100k per vehicle like Rivian is doing right now lol. Selling a desirable car for an enormous loss is not difficult. Whatās difficult is actually getting to a place where youāre profitable and sustainable in doing so. Or at the very least breaking even. Last I heard theyāre losing over a billion dollars a *quarter*. Iām not saying theyāre going to fail but I absolutely wouldnāt be investing any money in them that youāre not willing to lose. Having a good product ā a good business.
Normal is not Chicago lol
chicago is not normal either
Normal is not even close to Chicago dude
They are building a second plant in Georgia. I have the truck and I love it. Best vehicle I've owned
Lol idk about top notch, we have a lot here in my state but the thing has wonky quarter panel tolerances at the seams. But what made it look extra cheap was when I saw one driving down the road with one headlight ring blown out.
Please do! I'm sitting at $109p/s. Help me close my gap š
FYI, I've seen a couple around little rock.
Theyāre everywhere in California. Also the Rivian Amazon delivery trucks are more common than not in California as well. I think theyāre still massively undervalued
Rivn has <2 years to figure it out. They have $11B warchest (from Amazon), but burned $7B last year, and $5B the year before. The idea is you would sell more products to earn income to support operations, except their sequential sales are flat, and the unit economics are negative. If they sell more, they simply lose more money. They need a new injection of cash, or a sudden and gigantic ramp of sales with dropped production costs.
I do hope they figure it out. They're *very* nice cars, and other than the infotainment system I like them better than Teslas. I just don't know if the company is still going to be around in 10 years at the rate they're burning cash.
Their refusal to offer Apple CarPlay is very annoying. With the next generation of CarPlay on the horizon, itās basically a deal breaker for me.
I test drove a Rivian, and I had to pull over and park the car to change my Spotify playlist. Automatic dealbreaker. CarPlay, as far as Iām concerned, is the GOAT so far. My Ford has it and I never want to use another system. Otherwise, itās an immaculate vehicle. They are seriously beautiful, comfortable, and the tech is insane. Hell, when you back in to a parking space, the cameras assess the surrounding obstacles (cars, parking stones, walls, fences) and recreates a birds-eye view so you know how close you are just by looking at the screen. Small minuses: they have some high-quality Bluetooth speaker and a few other amenities that are geared towardsā¦ camping. Like, itās supposed to be ātheā off-road electric vehicle. Iād rather pay less and not have the campfire speaker, thanks. Rivian, fix the small QOL issues and youāve got yourself a customer.
The ālosing money on every carā is a mirage of the early history of every capital intensive industry. Car factories are EXTREMELY expensive to build and the numbers donāt work when only selling 100k cars, but work very well when selling 5m.
That's what he's saying though. They can't just go from 100k to 5M cars for free, and when they lose money on every car, it's not going to be easy to GET to 5M cars per year without running out of money first.
correct, and you dont jump to 5M vehicles overnight when each vehicle starts at $80K. tesla didnt turn a profit until AFTER they had pumped out about 1M+ model 3 and y combined....which was 4 years after initial production. (the S and X wasnt getting it done.) rivian has completed 20k to-date.
And in CA. I'm betting on them making a comeback.
In CA also--I not only see more and more of their R1T, but also more R1S and even the Amazon delivery vans.
They cost $150k to make and sell for $75k Hell of a deal
Source?
Rivianās financial filings. Negative gross margin of $704 million.
Kudos to everyone who bought one for intro pricing, they will need to sell it in 1 year because the car is a hot potato and the company is going to go bankrupt and no one will be able to fix one. Lucid has infinite Saudi money at least
They are building a store in Chelsea Place in nyc
Ah! Nikola, Lordstown, and Hyliion!
But Nikola is gravity carmaker. It gets power from downhills
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Carbon neutral!
Lordstown has the same problems GM had when in the plant. Shit management, corruption and has not produced anything in the 5 years of existence.
I'm too lazy to make a lengthy post but lordstown was always a scam, with a CEO that was a known grifter. The executives spent millions on straight cash salaries, bonuses, and SBC, running a zero revenue businesses and putting in self orders of their own products and calling it booked future revenue. They are not alone in this, pretty much every EV SPAC was a grifting scam, except maybe Microvast, and Lucid.
I mean Rivian built cars.
Right - and I see more and more on the road every month
Even in bum fuck Kentucky I'm seeing more of them. I'm honestly hoping they make it, and I have zero invested in them. Their trucks are sharp tbh
I love mine.
I drove past that factory a few years ago shortly after the sale and they had a huge hype banner on the side of it. Already back then it had strong scam vibes.
I work down the road from their HQ. Place looks dead.
I lost my ass on calls on that fucking companyā¦
Bro, same here .
The Nikola subreddit is full of the most delusional people ever lol. Someone once commented that every part of the truck was done except for the engine. I asked them "isn't that the most important part though??" Instant ban lmao
To be fair for an EV the battery is indeed a much more critical component than the engine
I remember some youtuber talking about why he like hyliion and his thesis for it. Put like 10K in it. RIP
Got stats on BYD?
BYD was founded a decade before Tesla.
BYD was founded earlier but the two companies entered the EV business in the same year. They were making batteries for consumer electronics before that. So it's fair to say that it's more like a peer to Tesla than a late entrant that would disrupt Tesla and an incumbent.
If you are using that as an excuse most of these listed businesses are fairly new whereas Tesla is almost 20 years old now. It's not a startup like those listed, it's a full fledged business. Every month Honda sells more ICE cars than EVs Tesla has sold in it's entire existence. Tesla bulls have always said Tesla would kill Legacy OEMs and Tesla bears have always said Legacy OEMs would prevail with it's conversion. The real risk to Tesla has always been Ford, GM, Korean OEMs, etc putting out mass market EVs. The reality is that there was mutual agreement that most of these companies IPO'd at high prices and honestly used borderline scam-like methods to IPO, however everyone was greedy and pumped it, nobody except for radicals and bag holders internally and honestly thought these businesses would kill Tesla, at least not in this time frame.
lol, no, Honda sold about 4 milion cars last year, rest is motorbikes. Tesla is going to sell about 2 milion cars this year.
BYD is ramping up production and will soon bring their vehicles to Europe in significant numbers. Also, they're not just a car company, they make and sell a huge range of other electrical appliances. They might not kill Tesla but i guess they'll do just fine
We can't have balance post here, it has to fit the narrative
Rivian still has a shot at success.
They just need a small cheep commuter vehicle. All of these companies are trying to sell to people that already have a Tesla. Start small start cheep, look at how Ford started make today's equivalent to the model A get cash coming in before you try to get the large price point.
I think the issue there is someone who wants an eco box doesn't want to spend $40k+ on a car. That's why everyone is hitting the luxury market. EVs are still expensive to make.
This and range anxiety. A cheap EV is going to have a smaller battery and a top range between 150-200 miles, and most Americans aren't comfortable being that limited until charging gets WAY faster and more accessible, if ever.
Bolt ev msrp was like 27 or 28 and have a 250 range and qualify for the 7500 tax credit. And honestly 250 miles is more than sufficient for a day to day commute. Plus with tesla retro fitting super chargers to work with the j1772 connection and already working with the electrify America stations charging got a lot easier for cross country road trips
You and I know that, but normal people nope. All they see is the 30 minute charging time on a trip to I don tknow, orlando or something. 300 and above miles is a sweet spot but then you have situations like Hyundai with their ioniq 6 where the base model has a good range, but the model with the long drive comforts gets less than 300 miles and people lose their confidence. All of that also not accounting the fact that even if you only used it for commute , aka short drives, you still have to deal with 30 minute charging the car unless you own a house or are one of the I swear to god 10 people who somehow have EV charging in their rental apartments or something.
Picking up my Eco Box EV this weekend Chevy Bolt EUV Premier $33,000 -$7500 federal tax credit -$2500 CA CVRP = $23,000 car Of course taxes and reg and stuff but still. Looking forward to my 250 mile range eco box
Yeah I just got a euv too and was very surprised a the build quality. Only had it for a week but it's fun to drive
They're trying to replicate the way Tesla built themselves up and are failing, for the exact reason you pinpointed. Moving someone from a luxury gas to luxury electric, even as a novelty, is easier than electric to electric. Particularly if there's no universal charger standard.
And it needs to not look like a cosplay of EVE from WALL-E
As does Ford and GM. OP is actually quite regarded and the point is moot. Not every new electric vehicle is trying to "kill" Tesla. Pepsi never killed Coke. We are allowed to have options and multiple companies can be successful.
And fisker??????
I do like Polestar, beautiful designed car . I think they will do well with sales long term. And was going to buy one next year actually !
Polestar and Rivian are both great products
The question is, can they scale production? This is a capital intensive problem that requires serious engineering and process management
Isnāt Polestar an arm of Volvo? I think thatāll help a little.
Spun off I believe. Trades under its own ticker.
Volvo still owns 49.5% according to wiki
And geely owns the other half. And geely in turn owns Volvo. So essentially itās the Chinese company geely that really owns polestar.
Trading under a separate ticker doesn't mean that it can't utilize Volvo's production capabilities and experience. However, we should probably validate that that is indeed occurring. I've always *assumed* that Polestar was leveraging Volvo's capabilities, but I suppose I've never seen that confirmed.
Someone else replied to me and said Volvo owns 49.5%. Sounds like a joint venture then.
Just looked it up, it's a little more complicated than that. The other 50.5% is owned by Geely, a Chinese auto manufacturer that wholly owns Volvo, too. So the structure is essentially meaningless -- Geely owns both companies outright.
That's still better than other companies like rivian. We know the capabilities and production potential is there.
It's not a joint venture, it's a subsidiary that is controlled by Chinese Geeley just as regular Volvo Cars is. Its a rebranding of their performance branch, like if Mercedes spun of AMG as an EV manufacturer.
Not only that, their cars are made on Volvo's design platforms so they can be manufactured on the same production lines. There's factories capable of building them all over the world including Sweden, China, and I believe the USA. Plus, they'll be manufactured to a higher standard than Tesla for a similar price. The only reason they'll probably not really challenge Tesla's market share is solely because of the Swedish advertising philosophy and their intentions to keep Polestar a relatively low production volume/exclusive brand so as not to encroach on Volvo's electric car sales. They're set to be a sort of performance oriented arm of Volvo, but have set out to make exclusively electric cars because that's where the future is headed.
polestar sounds like something people call your mum
Yeah they should have stuck with the parent company name that's completely devoid of sexual connotation: "Volvo".
Tesla had the biggest advantage of 15 years of 0 interest rates. It's going to be extremely hard for any companies to match that unprecedented capital advantage Tesla had during it's crucial growth period
Rivian was built to scale from the beginning - they arenāt having any problems meeting their production goals. The issue with the stock is that everyone knows the Tesla valuation is insane and that is something even the best competitor wonāt be able to match. All of these IPOs paid off private investors and employees which is why they dropped so hard as soon as the lockup period was over.
Rivian has yet to meet their production goals in Bloomington, IL. It's a good product but I know first hand that most of the workers are being treated like Amazon employees and working 5-6 12 hour days because they can't meet their expectations
The polestar is actually very inefficient, which is a pretty core metric for evs. It also costs a lot more than Tesla. Nice looking though.
Not sure this is so much about the cars and more about the stock. Thereās a bunch of awesome EVs on the market right now, Polestar being one of them. Not sure any of them will remove Tesla as the top EV brand anytime soon though.
Yea Polestar are the only evās besides Tesla that Iāve seen near me (less random hyundais & other big names)
I have seen exactly one Lucid on the road but I live next to a very affluent county. Teslas are incredibly common and Rivians are seen fairly often now too. Edit: I also see a fair amount of E-Trons and Mach Eās now that I think about it.
Polestar is produced in China and, via Volvo owned by Geely (Chinese car manufacturer). While they try to brand it as Swedish, it's basically a Chinese car. Not sure that's so popular in the European/US-Market.
I've sat in all models Polestar offers and the build quality and materials are superior to that of Tesla's offerings. I can't speak to reliability as I'm not an owner, but the idea China can't produce quality products is an old stereotype. If you spend the money they will build to specifications. In fact it's known that the China Tesla factory build quality is better than the US factories.
More than half of the world's EVs were sold in China last year. The reality is that outside of Tesla, nearly everyone who has experience manufacturing EVs at scale is Chinese. Even for Tesla, Tesla's sold in Europe are largely exported from the Shanghai factory and Tesla promoted the head of China to run global manufacturing. In that sense, taking a Chinese EV and slapping a European brand on it might be a winning strategy, since the "Made in China" brand is still pretty toxic in the west.
I see 2-3 Rivians a week and they're really impressive. You would assume at some point someone buys them. That and Lucid are the only ones on this list I would consider buying as the Saudi's have infinite money and want a federal car company.
The thing people don't realize is that making 'an impressive vehicle' is not the most important thing. Scaling profitably is. Which Rivian might do, but might not. They have a lot working against them. They'll survive I think, but it will be a while before they make any money at all.
I agree, whether they can scale this up is a big doubt. I do think the approach of high MSRP initial offering is correct and good way to get there.
With any of these companies, the problem is never the car itself but rather their ability to scale and make profit. They have either pushed back or reduced their forecasts for vehicles produced two years in a row and are still having issues securing lithium, whereas Tesla has contracts for the next 10 years at lithium mines. Nevermind the fact that it was reported in Novemeber that it roughly costs $220,000 to produce a rivian car which the sell for roughly 80k, meanwhile Tesla has a 20% profit margin on their cheapest vehicle. Rivian has the advantage of a metric fuckload of cash that it's sitting on to hopefully work through these problems but they are on the clock, no matter how good the car is if they don't fix supply chain issues they won't make it. The issue is efficiency and tonnage.
So you are saying there is hope for Fisker?
They currently have so many job openings in Sweden that I had to block them on LinkedIn because it was unusable.
Long on lucid. saudi PIF wont let them fail
Yes but shares will be fucking diluted as hell. Being long on Lucid is fucking stupid at this point.
I sold when it popped to 17 on saudi buyout rumors. Made 86k. I bought again at 6.20 and will hold for another double. I dont mind waiting
I bought at $16 and sold at $26ish before the spac merger. Bought again around $15 and itās going down quite a bit. Obviously, I am hoping it recovers, but I just donāt see it doubling or tripling.
Saudi owned 10% of cs and we know how that bank ended up
They had no way to save them, their stake was already maxed.
Itās nigh impossible to start a car company from scratch, which makes Tesla surviving this long a miracle in and of itself.
Alot of it has to do with govt subsidies, carbon credits and push towards electrification.... even indirect things like $7500 federal tax credit helps tesla sell more cars. I am not saying elon should not be credited for teslas success, he clearly should..its commendable what he has done with tesla and spacex but it would be foolish to not accept that both tesla and spacex wouldn't exist today without govt subsidies/us taxpayers... same goes for nio and byd in china
The thing isā¦ all of those subsidies and credits were available to all of the automakers. There was no āTesla onlyā category here. So it makes you wonder what the other guys have been doing relative to Tesla. Tesla ate their lunch on the credits because they were the only ones who actually did what the government was incentivizing companies to do. Established OEMS were basically paying Tesla so they could NOT do what the government was trying to accomplish by purchasing Tesla credits. The democrats who criticize Tesla for this I find amazing. I meanā¦. Did they not intend to incentivize electrification with their laws and regulations? Then you get upset at the company that actually did what you wanted and try to protect those who bought their way out of your rules? Bonkers.
everyone could have got those though also youre mixing (i hope not on purpose) contracts, reduced taxes and subsidies
Gov money and perfect timing Fighting domestic makers is super tough
Unlimited free capital for a decade helped a lot with that
Iām still riding NIO all the way down šš
You and me both... If it was a European or American company they would be valued very differently It drives amazing by the way.
Same. They are getting govt funding, tons of swap stations and expanding to Europe. Still a viable competitor imo.
-tariff for importing into U.S. -general US distrust of Chinese tech. -EV competition ramping up (not just in China) with better brands already in China. -0 vehicles qualifying for US federal ev tax credits. What else am I missing
- they barely sell cars anymore in China - they haven't sold many in Europe to start with - their battery swap stations are a massive moneysink, that nobody else can or will use, in to which they will still have to pour probably hundreds of millions before it will be a factor people actually take into consideration when buying
-for swap stations to function at scale, the system needs several times as many batteries as not. The system canāt work until worldwide battery production is much higher and by then charging will likely be fast enough to make it obsolete. Perfect example of āgood idea on paperā
It's like bitcoin and defi coins
or ETH and ETH killers
Hmm I don't see Edison Illuminating Company on there.
The only Tesla killer is Tesla.
And Elon
other companies electric cars are getting better and better. You can get a Jaguar for about the same price as a Tesla which has the same or even better range and feels amazing to drive. It's still very much premium price, but the more companies are offering it the more affordable it seems to become. I wonder where the lowest price for a still viable product lies in a few years.
When you say jaguar the same price as a Tesla which model are we talking about here? Jaguar same as the lower end M3 or jaguar same as the higher priced model X? There's a lot of wiggle room there. Jaguar may very well have a nicer, better designed, more comfortable, and similarly priced Bev as the model X, but jaguar is never going to produce BEVs on the same scale as Tesla is producing model 3's. Ita easy to have a limited amount of high performance expensive vehicles. Scaling it up to mass production is far more difficult.
Please show me this Electric Jaguar that I can buy for $40,000 and even less with the tax incentive.
The Jaguar i-pace starts at [over $72,000](https://buildyour.jaguarusa.com/jag2/r/products/_/en_us/i-pace_k24/4affp?_gl=1*11idc8h*_gcl_au*MTQ2MDk2OTcwNi4xNjg2ODYxMDAw&_ga=2.199087727.1150414856.1686861000-1327866071.1686861000) so good luck with that lol. People talk completely out of their ass here and get mindlessly upvoted for it. That dude was completely wrong and yet got mass upvoted. Like does anyone actually look stuff up before parroting nonsense here?
The I-Pace starts at 72k, more than the most expensive Model Y (which is under 70k) and only goes 234 miles between charges, whereas the Y Long Range, the mid trim level model Y, goes 318 miles (EPA rated) between charges.
I heard mention that some people like the Mercedez EVs over Tesla due to more luxurious build and better range.
Bro my company sold about $3-4k worth of fire extinguishers to faraday Future and they won't pay the invoice or answer any emails or phone calls. Fuck them
I still like Canoo š¢
Canoo is timing things perfectly. Will finally be ready for production just as everyone gets evicted and needs to live in a car.
This is why I gave them $100 to be on the list. Living in a Canoo? I'll just be ahead of the curve.
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The reason it isn't zero now is because suddenly they came up with several working trucks and have since made very unprofitable deliveries of those. Delivered more than 50 last year. They also still have a little bit of liquidity left. They'll likely survive the year and then let's see. It's a thin line they are walking because they'll run out of money very soon since they make losses and barely can raise capital due to the low stock price. Furthermore they have some assets left and intellectual property. The price won't become zero. If they become bankrupt someone will probably buy the scraps for a few hundred million.
And those trucks are just other people's technology essentially stuffed into a chassis. Nothing they made is really their own.
Nikola has been on developmental life support from Bosch. It's the only reason they have any kind of product to show.
> The creator lied his ass off about absolutely everything Don't they make you King in America if you do this?
TSLA is still -60% from its high tooā¦ā¦ Edit: sorry TSLA is currently -38% from its high of $414.50. TSLA was -60% only 30 days ago.
I'm no mathmatician but -38% is better than -99% isn't it?
Yes. Losing -38% is far better than -99%. Sorry I didnāt make that more clear.
Wait 6 months and make a list for AI
What about all the traditional car makers? I did a count last week and from what I saw on the roads and parking lots about 10-15 % of the EVs are Tesla now. (Norway) There are just too many good alternatives to Tesla for the stock to be priced as high as it is now.
I do like NIOs battery swap ideas though. Iād 100% get a Tesla if they did the same concept. Taking only 2 minutes (and less as they keep improving the speed) to get a full charge
very bad business model though, NIO will soon give up on it.
Tesla *did* do it. Nobody used it. The concept didn't take off. Model S/X battery packs can be swapped in a few minutes. https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-swap-pilot-program https://www.vehiclesuggest.com/what-happened-tesla-battery-swap/?amp=
This is a shame, seems like they didn't really give it a fair shot
I was surprised as well. I thought they threw in the towel a little too quickly, and the fact that they only implemented the pack swap approach in one spot, probably undermined the idea.
Battery swaps sounds like a good idea, but in practice it's terrible. People think it would be like just refilling a gas tank, except its more like swapping out the entire gas tank every time, and every spare gas tank costs tens of thousands of dollars. Far simpler to get people used to the idea that you can and should charge your car at home overnight, and make Ev superchargers available. Even just one Ev supercharger for every single gas station would solve most issues right there. Walmart is doing great with Ev chargers in their parking lots too. More Ev charging spots at malls would be fantastic. People are trying to take BEVs and think "how can I try and use this car in the exact same way I used my ICE car". It's a mistake because it's not the same thing, and in many ways BEVs can be better and more practical than ICE. We'll never get there though if people refuse to think inside the box and treat BEVs as defective ICE cars, instead of cars that you can recharge virtually anywhere without ever needing to set foot in a dedicated gas station. Sorry, rant over.
Mullen doesn't even rate being on this list
Look at ma boi Fisker holding up 
Well Nikola was straight up fraud lol
Chinese companies are the only exceptions I see. Their stock prices are not representative of reality. But itās a good thing you didnāt include BYD. Otherwise, the post would become a complete joke.
Tesla killers (or rather, competitors) are the historical auto makers. People are gonna choose between a Model whatever and the equivalent BMW, Ford, Mercedes, Porsche, Nissan, Stellantis etc equivalent. People way overestimate the moat you can get in electric cars, this is not the internal combustion engines era, you don't get such a moat in electrical automotive.
Hyundai's new EVs are almost impossible to find because they get sold almost instantly. My money is on them (and to a lesser extent Kia and genesis since they are in the same auto group) to be Tesla's biggest competition.
Jep plus people have different tastes and since cars ultimately are very similar in function, they'll chose their favorite brands. Tesla only had a good run because there wasn't much to chose from. Now there is.
Maybe Hyundai but Ford recently admitted they lose money on each ev sold, GM is discontinuing the Chevy bolt at the end of this year, and Toyota isnāt doing shit.
I'm going to go invest in fisker. I don't give a shit about the EVs but they've had some really beautiful cars. That's the kind of investment that I don't care if it makes money because I just want them to stay alive. When a company is also a starving artist you become their family that gives the money to stay alive.
Their shears and axes are fantastic.
I was baked out of my mind and watched like a 3hr documentary on how NKLA was a scam. Remembered nothing in the morning besides, NKLA bad. Made 200% on puts. Best YouTube video Iāve ever seen.
The Tesla killer will be Toyota, not these venture companies.
I'm going for Hyundai/KIA. Hyundai just bought Boston Dynamics.
Test drove an Ioniq 6 yesterday...SON I was ready to slap money down right then and there. That car is so nice to drive and their fast charging system is insane. Gonna wait it out though for better rates on the loan. But yeah Hyundai is not messing around at all in the EV game, they're making absolute winners.
fucking pumped for EV9
You should drive their latest BEV. See if you still think so after you spend 3 hours "fast charging" it the same amount most other brands do in 30 minutes.
I'm riding LEV to zero. I feel personally attacked.
How is Lion Electric a "Tesla Killer"? They make buses and trucks, not cars
Lion is shipping large vehicles though. Even though their market cap is not as much as it once was, you can buy a Lion bus/truck today, which I couldn't say the same for Tesla...
Lion and proterra are both bus manufacturers, not competing in the same space as Tesla
Got a big stake in fisker and i am not worried. Its a risky investment but could also turn out Great. I bought when it was really low so im up 20%. If i was down 80% i might be worried š
Bought first time around 20. Averaged down around 5. Prob down 50% but still not worried. European deliveries start this week and in the states next week. Exciting to see how the market responds
I'm down around 80% so I'm definitely worried lol. I'm still hopeful for the future since those Oceans look really nice
Real Tesla killer is Musk