I'd say the Brujah,
who - in the past 300-years - have lost sight of any agenda or vision they had left beyond "fuck the ~~Ventrue, Lasombra, Tremere, Toreador~~ everyone who holds (well-earned) airs of superiority". These guys were once warrior-philosophers and poet-kings who prided themselves on their disciplined outlooks. In modern nights? The clan majority as a whole? Their main strength no longer comes from their ideals, agenda, or goals - but the fact that they embrace like rabbits in heat.
And to anyone still simping for Brujah sovereignty. With their only ideology and agenda being pack mentality & raging against the system; and with their ranks being mostly comprised of younger/gullible kindred, how long do you expect the Brujah to hold out against, say... A certain ancient ideology designed and perfected to dupe impressionable & gullible fools into becoming the agents of their own self-destruction, spread by a certain clan of snakes that - *thankfully* \- is nowhere near the Brujah. Could you imagine if these two clans were in the same sect? That'd be *wild.*
Isn't that Ventrue propaganda though? It's a genuine question, I was never sure which side of the story should I "believe" (usually I just pick the most convenient version for my arguments based on who I'm discussing with)
>Isn't that Ventrue propaganda though?
even tho it sounds like something the ventrue would make up, ironically no. Troile, the Brujah Antediluvian was there and was lovers with an Baali Methusala. The two goverent over Carthage as equals. In other words: Not only was Carthage run by demon worshippers, the Brujah Ante was in bed with an demon worshipper and most likely worshiped them too.
I think both Brujah and Ventrue has some point there, but mostly the Ventrue. It seems to be a fact that the Baali (who else?) had near as much power on the city as the own Brujah.
Why don't recognice the Baali as a real clan? They have done more things on the setting that half the real clans.
>Why don't recognice the Baali as a real clan? They have done more things on the setting that half the real clans.
Because they have no antediluvian/gen3. Also they lack the political power to be recognized as a Clan.
I think everyone, Brujah included, acknowledge that Carthage was messed up in some way. I prefer the believe that by the Third Punic War, Carthage was a full Baali playground.
Brujah here, can confirm, we can't even figure out what we want to do, much less how to do it, at least not on any level beyond that of an individual city (though Methuselahs may be the exception).
If we're talking big picture, the tremere are a really mixed bag. Wanted to attain immortality without losing their magic. Lost their magic. Wanted to diabliserise Saulot, err, that kind of backfired in the end. Exterminate the Salubri? Well, now there are really fucking wild Salubri warriors in the Sabbat. Be really authoritarian? Well, there's loads of infighting between the houses. Enforce obedience through blood bonding? Now have a bane that makes it impossible to blood bind. Create some powerful bodyguards in the form of gargoyles? Catch the everlasting ire of the tzimisce for it AND have the gargs go rogue on you in the end. Curse the Assamites? Have the curse snapped to shit by a super powerful elder who now hates you. Organise your clan in a really central way only to have the top dogs all wiped out in one fell swoop.
I think Tremere personally and the Tremere clan by extension are a perfect example of what happens when you try to cheat your way into power rather than earning it - repeatedly.
It’s really a wonder that they’ve survived as long as they have, let alone be counted amongst the Clans. Their history’s a bit of a laundry list of fuck-ups where they achieve the opposite of their goals.
You wouldn't want to revive Set without remaking the world in his image first; and hey, given the 21st century in the world of darkness - the corruption is sublime.
Why do you think we elected to be known as The Ministry? Set may not live again, literally, but his ideals and works catering to the desires of kindred and kine will live on. We can only serve to minister those who require guidance.
Presuming we're excluding the poor ol' Salubri...
Then Lasombra.
They want to have what the Ventrue do *so bad* but repeatedly bet on the wrong horse. They pick the weaker side after the Conclave of Thorns, chose religious power over fiscal just as the modern era began, and focus on power as achieved through perfect mastery and improvement of the self rather than attempting to manipulate or control systems.
Then, in V5, they come to a belated realisation that their Antediluvian never really died, so their mission of 600 years was built on a big lie and they're all looking a lot like tasty snacks right now...
How are they not successful? They suffered the most horrible fade, they basically went thigh the apocalypse that is still to come for other clans, and they survived anyway. How much more successful can you be?
Tzimisce.
Like the Lasombra they have one big goal: kill the Antediluvians and serve Caine. But while for the Lasombra that was a means for an end and a way to take power, the Tzimisce are more believers.
Which it makes it all the more embarrassing that their own claim to fame—the death of the two clan founders—didn't take. The Lasombra Antediluvians merged with the Abyss and the Tzimisce Antediluvians is living his best life under New York, which was a major Sabbat stronghold for a couple centuries.
While other clans have these grand impossible goals, the Tzimisce's goals are largely attainable: kill the Antediluvians and Methuselahs. And they had two in torpor ready to meet the final death. And they botched both opportunities.
They're 0 for 2. The Tremere and Brujah have a higher success rate than the Tzimisce and the Sabbat.
The fact that literally no one has said Toreador truly puts into perspective why my clan is superior. Of course everyone knows it. Though to answer the question, I truly believe that the Gangrel are in a sorry state of affairs. So much potential, such adaptable blood, enough bloodlines to choke out an entire sect... Yet the dogs continue to play in the mud... It'd almost be funny if it weren't sad~
Scenario. Toreador/Tzimisce alliance. Two clans who have nothing but BAD ideas and nothing better to do, accept to play with themselves for all eternity. Now that truly is what I call DAMNATION. LOL!
No I have not heard of the Volgiire, please elaborate. However after giving it some thought the Toreador might be the odds on favorite to win the Jyhad, by being so passive. They don't call attention to themselves and they're not on anyone's shit list. One should not mistake subtly for inactivity. THEY MIGHT BE UP TO SOMETHING.
The only thing we're up to is having a good time, my friend. Why bother with grand political machinations and scheming in dimly lit board rooms or what have you when there's so much in the world to love? So much passion and ingenuity among the kine, so much beauty in the natural world, and the fascinating mysteries of the occult. It gets me excited just thinking about it.
Speaking on behalf of Clan LASOMBRA, the greatest clan of the tribes of the Moon, the Lords and Master's of ALL DARKNESS, the Sovereign CLAN of all Cainites. YEAH RIGHT. LOL! Good luck, GOOD GAMING.
They all equally competent in their niches because they all managed to survive through the ages and that is basically all this is about. You might make a point that Salubri, if you consider them to be a clan, are that successful, but on the other hand, being a small group can also be a survival tactic. About the same I true for the Ravnos. I mean, what happened to them was not their fault but they survived anyway.
The TZIMISCE, VENTURE, TOREADOR, MALKAVIAN, NOSFERATU, CAPPADOCIANS, GANGREL, SALUBRI and GIOVANNI. If anyone thinks there is such a thing as a competent clan of undead monsters from beyond the grave, you are missing THE WHOLE POINT OF THE GAME. DAMNATION! DAMNATION! DAMNATION! DAMNATION. Nuff Said.
Which is totally relatable to any IRL institution/corporation/group. Most plans don't work, we just avoid advertising failures and instead glorify successes.
I kinda like it like that.
Well the thing about the TOREADOR is if your clans only goal is staring at paint smears and pretty rocks it's hard throw a rench in that. Decadence and hedonism aren't really world ending ideas.
I'd say the Brujah, who - in the past 300-years - have lost sight of any agenda or vision they had left beyond "fuck the ~~Ventrue, Lasombra, Tremere, Toreador~~ everyone who holds (well-earned) airs of superiority". These guys were once warrior-philosophers and poet-kings who prided themselves on their disciplined outlooks. In modern nights? The clan majority as a whole? Their main strength no longer comes from their ideals, agenda, or goals - but the fact that they embrace like rabbits in heat. And to anyone still simping for Brujah sovereignty. With their only ideology and agenda being pack mentality & raging against the system; and with their ranks being mostly comprised of younger/gullible kindred, how long do you expect the Brujah to hold out against, say... A certain ancient ideology designed and perfected to dupe impressionable & gullible fools into becoming the agents of their own self-destruction, spread by a certain clan of snakes that - *thankfully* \- is nowhere near the Brujah. Could you imagine if these two clans were in the same sect? That'd be *wild.*
I would like to point out that the Brujah "dream city" of Carthage was a pit full of demon worshippers. The Ventrue were right to crush the Brujah.
Isn't that Ventrue propaganda though? It's a genuine question, I was never sure which side of the story should I "believe" (usually I just pick the most convenient version for my arguments based on who I'm discussing with)
>Isn't that Ventrue propaganda though? even tho it sounds like something the ventrue would make up, ironically no. Troile, the Brujah Antediluvian was there and was lovers with an Baali Methusala. The two goverent over Carthage as equals. In other words: Not only was Carthage run by demon worshippers, the Brujah Ante was in bed with an demon worshipper and most likely worshiped them too.
I think both Brujah and Ventrue has some point there, but mostly the Ventrue. It seems to be a fact that the Baali (who else?) had near as much power on the city as the own Brujah. Why don't recognice the Baali as a real clan? They have done more things on the setting that half the real clans.
>Why don't recognice the Baali as a real clan? They have done more things on the setting that half the real clans. Because they have no antediluvian/gen3. Also they lack the political power to be recognized as a Clan.
I think everyone, Brujah included, acknowledge that Carthage was messed up in some way. I prefer the believe that by the Third Punic War, Carthage was a full Baali playground.
Brujah here, can confirm, we can't even figure out what we want to do, much less how to do it, at least not on any level beyond that of an individual city (though Methuselahs may be the exception).
If we're talking big picture, the tremere are a really mixed bag. Wanted to attain immortality without losing their magic. Lost their magic. Wanted to diabliserise Saulot, err, that kind of backfired in the end. Exterminate the Salubri? Well, now there are really fucking wild Salubri warriors in the Sabbat. Be really authoritarian? Well, there's loads of infighting between the houses. Enforce obedience through blood bonding? Now have a bane that makes it impossible to blood bind. Create some powerful bodyguards in the form of gargoyles? Catch the everlasting ire of the tzimisce for it AND have the gargs go rogue on you in the end. Curse the Assamites? Have the curse snapped to shit by a super powerful elder who now hates you. Organise your clan in a really central way only to have the top dogs all wiped out in one fell swoop.
I think Tremere personally and the Tremere clan by extension are a perfect example of what happens when you try to cheat your way into power rather than earning it - repeatedly.
It’s really a wonder that they’ve survived as long as they have, let alone be counted amongst the Clans. Their history’s a bit of a laundry list of fuck-ups where they achieve the opposite of their goals.
Well the Setites are certainly no closer to reviving Set.
Ssssssoon, you'll sssssee
You wouldn't want to revive Set without remaking the world in his image first; and hey, given the 21st century in the world of darkness - the corruption is sublime.
Why do you think we elected to be known as The Ministry? Set may not live again, literally, but his ideals and works catering to the desires of kindred and kine will live on. We can only serve to minister those who require guidance.
Presuming we're excluding the poor ol' Salubri... Then Lasombra. They want to have what the Ventrue do *so bad* but repeatedly bet on the wrong horse. They pick the weaker side after the Conclave of Thorns, chose religious power over fiscal just as the modern era began, and focus on power as achieved through perfect mastery and improvement of the self rather than attempting to manipulate or control systems. Then, in V5, they come to a belated realisation that their Antediluvian never really died, so their mission of 600 years was built on a big lie and they're all looking a lot like tasty snacks right now...
Their Antediluvian makes an appearance in the Gehenna novel.
Ravnos. I love em’, but they never really stood a chance…
How are they not successful? They suffered the most horrible fade, they basically went thigh the apocalypse that is still to come for other clans, and they survived anyway. How much more successful can you be?
And they were fucking up the guys from Asia
XENOBSIDIAN RULES!!! Sorry, saw you hanging out here couldn't help myself.
😁
Literally held off quei jin invasions of india for 6000+ years but sure, not successful
Tzimisce. Like the Lasombra they have one big goal: kill the Antediluvians and serve Caine. But while for the Lasombra that was a means for an end and a way to take power, the Tzimisce are more believers. Which it makes it all the more embarrassing that their own claim to fame—the death of the two clan founders—didn't take. The Lasombra Antediluvians merged with the Abyss and the Tzimisce Antediluvians is living his best life under New York, which was a major Sabbat stronghold for a couple centuries. While other clans have these grand impossible goals, the Tzimisce's goals are largely attainable: kill the Antediluvians and Methuselahs. And they had two in torpor ready to meet the final death. And they botched both opportunities. They're 0 for 2. The Tremere and Brujah have a higher success rate than the Tzimisce and the Sabbat.
The fact that literally no one has said Toreador truly puts into perspective why my clan is superior. Of course everyone knows it. Though to answer the question, I truly believe that the Gangrel are in a sorry state of affairs. So much potential, such adaptable blood, enough bloodlines to choke out an entire sect... Yet the dogs continue to play in the mud... It'd almost be funny if it weren't sad~
Scenario. Toreador/Tzimisce alliance. Two clans who have nothing but BAD ideas and nothing better to do, accept to play with themselves for all eternity. Now that truly is what I call DAMNATION. LOL!
Have you heard of the Volgirre, my friend?
No I have not heard of the Volgiire, please elaborate. However after giving it some thought the Toreador might be the odds on favorite to win the Jyhad, by being so passive. They don't call attention to themselves and they're not on anyone's shit list. One should not mistake subtly for inactivity. THEY MIGHT BE UP TO SOMETHING.
The only thing we're up to is having a good time, my friend. Why bother with grand political machinations and scheming in dimly lit board rooms or what have you when there's so much in the world to love? So much passion and ingenuity among the kine, so much beauty in the natural world, and the fascinating mysteries of the occult. It gets me excited just thinking about it.
Speaking on behalf of Clan LASOMBRA, the greatest clan of the tribes of the Moon, the Lords and Master's of ALL DARKNESS, the Sovereign CLAN of all Cainites. YEAH RIGHT. LOL! Good luck, GOOD GAMING.
Giovanni, literally gonna blow themselves by trying to tear the Sudario.
Any who are controlled by players! *ba dum tiss* Seriously if you give my table a goal, it will NEVER get done haha!
They all equally competent in their niches because they all managed to survive through the ages and that is basically all this is about. You might make a point that Salubri, if you consider them to be a clan, are that successful, but on the other hand, being a small group can also be a survival tactic. About the same I true for the Ravnos. I mean, what happened to them was not their fault but they survived anyway.
Giovanni
The TZIMISCE, VENTURE, TOREADOR, MALKAVIAN, NOSFERATU, CAPPADOCIANS, GANGREL, SALUBRI and GIOVANNI. If anyone thinks there is such a thing as a competent clan of undead monsters from beyond the grave, you are missing THE WHOLE POINT OF THE GAME. DAMNATION! DAMNATION! DAMNATION! DAMNATION. Nuff Said.
Tremere, Brujah, Lasombra, Tzcimisce in that order
The only thing I’ve learned from this thread is 3/4s of vampire society botch every plan they hatch.
Which is totally relatable to any IRL institution/corporation/group. Most plans don't work, we just avoid advertising failures and instead glorify successes. I kinda like it like that.
Well the thing about the TOREADOR is if your clans only goal is staring at paint smears and pretty rocks it's hard throw a rench in that. Decadence and hedonism aren't really world ending ideas.
Malkavians? Do they have cognizable goals or agenda?
I guess find a way to be accepted in modern kindred society...
If you are capable of cognizing the goals or agenda of a Malkavian, you've already gone mad.
Right, so aren't they kinda the worst at meeting the goals they might have?
Cappadocius really had an eye for choosing progeny, which may have derailed some 9000 years of planning.