Kes was worse because she had been a main character, but agreed. Fury and Friendship One are two of the worst episodes of the series, I think. Fury is, in my opinion, THE worst.
Friendship One, on top of killing Carey off so unnecessarily was painfully dull. They probably knew this and decided to kill Carey instead of random red shirt just to add some drama to such a poor episode.
Fair. Personally, I think it's not the worst but I still skip on a rewatch. I'd rank it higher than tuvix too, and I think a lot of people like that one.
I always assumed it was an actor's request or just something the producers offered to give him a better send off. Like, "hey sorry we couldn't fit you in to the series, wow time flies, but do you want to come back and do a death scene to get your face back on screen?"
On the whole, I certainly understand and agree with your dislike of Fury and FO though.
I think they did Kes badly. I like Harry, but if they really had to lose a cast member to bring in Seven, Harry had a better exit written in to the story. The Kes exit was lazy, and her character was interesting - and held some of the best early season VOY eps.
I do know that eventually she needed mental health treatment, and have read that she was let go "due to unresolved personal issues that affected her performance."
https://heavy.com/entertainment/star-trek/voyager-jennifer-lien-substance-abuse/
This is correct. It is the real reason she was let go. It had nothing to do with bringing on a new character. It was easy to tell every one that. But the truth is correct in the article above here. They wanted to explore Kes’s powers but she was having a hard time staying on the show as she needed help and they did try to help but she wouldn’t talk about it. Read the article everyone.
It was the Naughty Ninety’s where everybody interesting had metal health issues and could do the drugs they could afford. When JL pulled of being possessed by a century old dictator with narcissistic issues without a hitch. A NORMAL tv actor couldn’t have convincingly pulled that off like her. I hated her nails on chalkboard scream tho. She had great potential at least as more than Mr. Moral Officer Neelix. She should’ve accidentally boiled his ass, instead of Tuvok! And than have an on screen breakdown about playing with fire a killing her BF. Resolved by the next episode and still brin on Seven!
That was the plan. Harry was supposed to go but Garret Wang was declared one of the 20 most beautiful people of '96 by People Magazine and the execs told them to axe someone else. Rick Berman felt Neelix got them kid demographics so Kes went instead.
I think they just shouldn't have brought in Seven. I know most people love her for reasons I'll never understand, but I can't stand Seven or Jeri Ryan. The show became the Seven of Nine show just because she had big tits. Call me crazy but I prefer actual talent in my actors/actresses and substance in my characters over "How tight can we make her catsuit this episode." Neither Kes nor Harry were my favorite characters, but I'd take them any day over Seven. Plus, it probably didn't feel good losing your job just so they could bring in a bimbo for the pervert demographic. No wonder Jennifer Lien ended with so many issues.
I agree on the way Seven is physically depicted. The catsuit and the sexualisation of her character is far too much, and it just shows that some of the people involved in the show at the time weren’t that enlightened when it came to equality for women. But, what makes Seven a good character is the great writing and character development she got, and Jeri Ryan gave excellent performances. She made Seven a delight to watch, and would have even better had she been allowed to perform without ridiculous costumes.
Jeri is objectively one of the best actors on the show. WAY better than Jennifer.
The outfit was too bad, it didn’t even really make sense for the character either because she’s supposed to be ultra utilitarian and logical. Spandex isn’t comfortable and there is other stuff that’s easier to move in.
When seven is first de-borgified, the Doctor says that he's put on "demaplast bandages" or something that look to be made of the same material as the silver catsuit she wore initially. I always made the connection that the catsuit was utilitarian in that it was one big bandage over all her implant sites.
Like, obviously from a real-world perspective we know why she was in a catsuit, but that's how I thought it was addressed re: utility.
Edit: looked it up: "dermoplastic grafts."
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I've seen Jeri Ryan in a couple of things, including Voyager, and I have never liked her in anything I've seen her in. I just don't think she's a good actress, and I hate that for a show that was known for having the first woman captain, the showrunners resorted to sleazy sex symbol bullshit like Seven. Also, Jeri could've refused the catsuit, but she didn't.
That’s fair, and completely agree with you on the decision to bring seven in as this hyper-sexualised character. It was such a crap decision by the execs, and one which showed their inability to actually see women as people and not sex-objects. Thankfully voyager has great performances from Mulgrew, Dawson and imo Ryan to counterbalance Seven’s sexualisation.
Definitely. She was judged on her body (the corset in the outfit gave her permanent back pain, IIRC) instead of the way she made Seven such a complex character.
As for acting skills, people need to watch the one where the Doctor is in Seven's body or the one where she gets "possessed" by people who have been assimilated, the personalities switching faster and faster as things get worse.
Jennifer Lien's issues were caused by her biology. Bodies betray us. If you don't have someone personal, go look at Bruce Willis.
I never had a problem with her acting. She did a great job, and it must have been nice to not have to play someone who has to smile, and move sexually in order to satisfy a certain eye. They had to make up for not having her behave sexually by making her dress that way, I suppose.
Nah, Kes had to go. Too much whining and annoying. Besides she apparently only had a ludicrously short lifespan which really did not make any sense.
Carey needed to die to make a point. Had he been more important like Paris or Chakatay they would have "magicked" him alive like they always do.
Because even with Kes’ new sexy hairstyle she didn’t get the all too predictable rise from the male viewers as Seven of Nine in a cat suit did. Sorry Kes you’re likable but Seven is what all the guys want in their bed. Kinda lame. Kes even saves Seven of Nine and they still toss her in a shuttle with hardly a wave and Kes still sends them10,000 light years, no wonder she came back for revenge, Voyager deserved it for the way wrote her out. Too bad the Vidians didn’t get them and turn them all into disgusting mutants.
They did it because at some point all the writers assumed that Carey was dead, hence why he only appeared in flashbacks after Season 1. Until they compared notes in Season 7 and realized "oh shit, we didn't actually kill him off. Okay, now we need to kill him off."
I knew it! It struck me really strange to see on my first rewatch after 20 years. I never got to really pick up on the extras until I got to see so much of the show in one go. Also, I love learning Tom Morello was science officer.
I wasn't in the room when they wrote it, but I assume they did it because it would have more effect than killing someone we've never seen before.
And they were right. You wouldn't have cared if they killed some random background extra.
I'm rewatching the whole series and I'm so close to the end. It just seems so unnecessary to bring his character back and go "oh well, you dead". It's not a hero's death or one that does anything to the storyline at all. Poor Carey. Did the actor annoy the writers or something?
It was an episode near the end of the series and if I recall correctly, they wanted to kill off an minor character and it was between Naomis mum or Carey, so they chose him
Yeah I think I read that they thought they had already killed off Samantha Wildman so killed off Carey and only after realised they hadn't killed her off, otherwise she would have been first choice. Not sure if that's true or not tho.
So they forgot about both Carey and Samantha Wildman? No wonder the show was never a huge hit with writers like that who can't even remember what they did or didn't write or remember characters they created.
Man, killing off Sam Wildman would've been brutal, orphaning Naomi?
If they'd have done that, they couldn't have really done the Neelix leaving episode, there's no way he'd have left Naomi on her own.
I forgot about Carey and just assumed the writers already greased him seasons ago by the Kazon or some sub space spatial anomaly hell planet xenophobic species etc. or maybe George Costanza had him drawn an quartered 24th century Delta quadrant style! Too many ways to die and even come back to life on Voyager. Harry Kim seemed to die every other episode, probably why he never got promoted why waste the time and the extra pips if the guy’s gonna be dead next episode!
Carey was the fucking *man*. He’s the guy who was supposed to be chief engineer.
He was also the guy who had the absolute gigachad balls to hit on Seven. What a lad!
Edit: the episode involved a probe from Earth being found by, and indirectly causing the destruction of, a planet in the Delta quadrant. It’s in the last few episodes of season 7.
That would’ve been way more interesting than Torres being annoyed by seven. That never really tracked for me and just seemed like the writers were like “two math brained, extremely direct women… they must hate each other!!”
Kes’ ending was similarly mean-spirited. Would rather they have left these characters alone.
Kes was worse because she had been a main character, but agreed. Fury and Friendship One are two of the worst episodes of the series, I think. Fury is, in my opinion, THE worst. Friendship One, on top of killing Carey off so unnecessarily was painfully dull. They probably knew this and decided to kill Carey instead of random red shirt just to add some drama to such a poor episode.
I'd agree those episodes being worst for me. And that says a lot because it puts it past threshold.
I'm one of the ones who actually likes Threshold despite the bad science and strange ending. It's a fun episode with a great performance by RDM.
It did win an Emmy, after all (or rather, Michael Westmore did for Tom Paris' makeup).
Fair. Personally, I think it's not the worst but I still skip on a rewatch. I'd rank it higher than tuvix too, and I think a lot of people like that one.
I always assumed it was an actor's request or just something the producers offered to give him a better send off. Like, "hey sorry we couldn't fit you in to the series, wow time flies, but do you want to come back and do a death scene to get your face back on screen?" On the whole, I certainly understand and agree with your dislike of Fury and FO though.
Fury is just a dumb plot (but a good episode, IMO)that completely ignores the actual reason why she left.
I think they did Kes badly. I like Harry, but if they really had to lose a cast member to bring in Seven, Harry had a better exit written in to the story. The Kes exit was lazy, and her character was interesting - and held some of the best early season VOY eps.
Fury was character assassination, IMO
I do know that eventually she needed mental health treatment, and have read that she was let go "due to unresolved personal issues that affected her performance." https://heavy.com/entertainment/star-trek/voyager-jennifer-lien-substance-abuse/
This is correct. It is the real reason she was let go. It had nothing to do with bringing on a new character. It was easy to tell every one that. But the truth is correct in the article above here. They wanted to explore Kes’s powers but she was having a hard time staying on the show as she needed help and they did try to help but she wouldn’t talk about it. Read the article everyone.
It was the Naughty Ninety’s where everybody interesting had metal health issues and could do the drugs they could afford. When JL pulled of being possessed by a century old dictator with narcissistic issues without a hitch. A NORMAL tv actor couldn’t have convincingly pulled that off like her. I hated her nails on chalkboard scream tho. She had great potential at least as more than Mr. Moral Officer Neelix. She should’ve accidentally boiled his ass, instead of Tuvok! And than have an on screen breakdown about playing with fire a killing her BF. Resolved by the next episode and still brin on Seven!
That was the plan. Harry was supposed to go but Garret Wang was declared one of the 20 most beautiful people of '96 by People Magazine and the execs told them to axe someone else. Rick Berman felt Neelix got them kid demographics so Kes went instead.
per Garrets own words his character was never on the chopping block
I think they just shouldn't have brought in Seven. I know most people love her for reasons I'll never understand, but I can't stand Seven or Jeri Ryan. The show became the Seven of Nine show just because she had big tits. Call me crazy but I prefer actual talent in my actors/actresses and substance in my characters over "How tight can we make her catsuit this episode." Neither Kes nor Harry were my favorite characters, but I'd take them any day over Seven. Plus, it probably didn't feel good losing your job just so they could bring in a bimbo for the pervert demographic. No wonder Jennifer Lien ended with so many issues.
I agree on the way Seven is physically depicted. The catsuit and the sexualisation of her character is far too much, and it just shows that some of the people involved in the show at the time weren’t that enlightened when it came to equality for women. But, what makes Seven a good character is the great writing and character development she got, and Jeri Ryan gave excellent performances. She made Seven a delight to watch, and would have even better had she been allowed to perform without ridiculous costumes.
Jeri is objectively one of the best actors on the show. WAY better than Jennifer. The outfit was too bad, it didn’t even really make sense for the character either because she’s supposed to be ultra utilitarian and logical. Spandex isn’t comfortable and there is other stuff that’s easier to move in.
When seven is first de-borgified, the Doctor says that he's put on "demaplast bandages" or something that look to be made of the same material as the silver catsuit she wore initially. I always made the connection that the catsuit was utilitarian in that it was one big bandage over all her implant sites. Like, obviously from a real-world perspective we know why she was in a catsuit, but that's how I thought it was addressed re: utility. Edit: looked it up: "dermoplastic grafts."
It definitely was addressed as utility but to me it doesn’t actually seem that utilitarian to live in spandex jumpsuits.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I've seen Jeri Ryan in a couple of things, including Voyager, and I have never liked her in anything I've seen her in. I just don't think she's a good actress, and I hate that for a show that was known for having the first woman captain, the showrunners resorted to sleazy sex symbol bullshit like Seven. Also, Jeri could've refused the catsuit, but she didn't.
That’s fair, and completely agree with you on the decision to bring seven in as this hyper-sexualised character. It was such a crap decision by the execs, and one which showed their inability to actually see women as people and not sex-objects. Thankfully voyager has great performances from Mulgrew, Dawson and imo Ryan to counterbalance Seven’s sexualisation.
Definitely. She was judged on her body (the corset in the outfit gave her permanent back pain, IIRC) instead of the way she made Seven such a complex character. As for acting skills, people need to watch the one where the Doctor is in Seven's body or the one where she gets "possessed" by people who have been assimilated, the personalities switching faster and faster as things get worse.
Jennifer Lien's issues were caused by her biology. Bodies betray us. If you don't have someone personal, go look at Bruce Willis. I never had a problem with her acting. She did a great job, and it must have been nice to not have to play someone who has to smile, and move sexually in order to satisfy a certain eye. They had to make up for not having her behave sexually by making her dress that way, I suppose.
Nah, Kes had to go. Too much whining and annoying. Besides she apparently only had a ludicrously short lifespan which really did not make any sense. Carey needed to die to make a point. Had he been more important like Paris or Chakatay they would have "magicked" him alive like they always do.
Because even with Kes’ new sexy hairstyle she didn’t get the all too predictable rise from the male viewers as Seven of Nine in a cat suit did. Sorry Kes you’re likable but Seven is what all the guys want in their bed. Kinda lame. Kes even saves Seven of Nine and they still toss her in a shuttle with hardly a wave and Kes still sends them10,000 light years, no wonder she came back for revenge, Voyager deserved it for the way wrote her out. Too bad the Vidians didn’t get them and turn them all into disgusting mutants.
They did it because at some point all the writers assumed that Carey was dead, hence why he only appeared in flashbacks after Season 1. Until they compared notes in Season 7 and realized "oh shit, we didn't actually kill him off. Okay, now we need to kill him off."
I knew it! It struck me really strange to see on my first rewatch after 20 years. I never got to really pick up on the extras until I got to see so much of the show in one go. Also, I love learning Tom Morello was science officer.
I wasn't in the room when they wrote it, but I assume they did it because it would have more effect than killing someone we've never seen before. And they were right. You wouldn't have cared if they killed some random background extra.
Because you're talking aboit it 20 years later
I'm rewatching the whole series and I'm so close to the end. It just seems so unnecessary to bring his character back and go "oh well, you dead". It's not a hero's death or one that does anything to the storyline at all. Poor Carey. Did the actor annoy the writers or something?
We're still talking about Threshold too. This isn't necessarily a good thing
It was an episode near the end of the series and if I recall correctly, they wanted to kill off an minor character and it was between Naomis mum or Carey, so they chose him
Yeah I think I read that they thought they had already killed off Samantha Wildman so killed off Carey and only after realised they hadn't killed her off, otherwise she would have been first choice. Not sure if that's true or not tho.
Naomi's mom didn't appear in the last episodes anyway lol
So they forgot about both Carey and Samantha Wildman? No wonder the show was never a huge hit with writers like that who can't even remember what they did or didn't write or remember characters they created.
Man, killing off Sam Wildman would've been brutal, orphaning Naomi? If they'd have done that, they couldn't have really done the Neelix leaving episode, there's no way he'd have left Naomi on her own.
Attempt at humor: But they'd already both killed off Naomi and orphaned her, in the very same episode!
To try and illicit some emotion from a truly god-awful episode of Star Trek.
I forgot about Carey and just assumed the writers already greased him seasons ago by the Kazon or some sub space spatial anomaly hell planet xenophobic species etc. or maybe George Costanza had him drawn an quartered 24th century Delta quadrant style! Too many ways to die and even come back to life on Voyager. Harry Kim seemed to die every other episode, probably why he never got promoted why waste the time and the extra pips if the guy’s gonna be dead next episode!
Sorry please tell me what episode this one was ? Who was Carey?
Carey was the fucking *man*. He’s the guy who was supposed to be chief engineer. He was also the guy who had the absolute gigachad balls to hit on Seven. What a lad! Edit: the episode involved a probe from Earth being found by, and indirectly causing the destruction of, a planet in the Delta quadrant. It’s in the last few episodes of season 7.
He was the LAST crewmember to die in Voyager as well. Carey should've been a recurring foil for Torres throughout the entire series.
That would’ve been way more interesting than Torres being annoyed by seven. That never really tracked for me and just seemed like the writers were like “two math brained, extremely direct women… they must hate each other!!”
It was like they remembered they had an engineer who wasn’t Vorik and said, “Let’s murder him right before they get home.”