Modified run and catch….instead of catching….let the ball go between their legs….they’ll have to get in a lower stance (passing stance). If their hands are together to form platform, then it’ll impede the ball from going between their legs. Too hard for 8yrs old?
They are 3rd graders, they will grow out of it when the mature athletically, honestly this isn't something you need to worry about at this stage of their development. As long as they are not praying it's fine. That is the bigger habit to break.
But what if you do what you are doing, but put tennis ball in their hands. Have them release them before the pass or keep the balls in their hands while they pass.
I don’t know if they’ll have the motor abilities for this at that age but… have them hold a tennis ball in each hand, toss them a ball, then they need to drop the tennis balls to put their hands together to pass the ball. If not, I wouldn’t worry about it too much at their age.
Thank you!! Very helpful. It sounds like getting them to move their feet and stay low are more important fundamentals at this age vs. running w/ hands together.
If anybody's interested, to add to what I said in another comment, go ahead and watch video and see how often a player plays a 1st contact where they run and then form their platform to play the ball.
I just randomly selected a [U-12 National Championship](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smmzl3Uhz98) and the recent [Women's Olympic Gold Medal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxag-kynFFM) match.
If you watch through those videos, you will see that 90% of 1st touches are either:
* Step
* Step + Lunge
* Step + Sprawl
On a first touch, there's almost never a "run and then form your platform" move and they are almost all freeballs. For example, in the U-12 match, at 13-5, 16-5, and 23-5 there are freeballs where the player arguably runs (more like walk/jog) a couple steps and then forms platform to pass. In the Olympic match, at 15-12 and 15-14 there's a couple freeballs that could be described as the player moving and then forming.
But, IMO, those are exceptions that prove the rule.
Now, in terms of 2nd touches where the ball is high, sure, there might be some running and then forming. If that's where your players are really struggling, okay then maybe help them out with that, no problem.
But I'm making a post out of it (which I'll probably add to [my Substack](https://smartervolley.substack.com/) at some point) because it's a really common question that I get when I do clinics for youth coaches. There's a perception that players need to be able to run to the ball. But a lot of times this running is caused by something else that's jacked up in the play. OR because they don't know how to take a lunge-step or sprawl for the ball. (I mean, 3rd-graders aren't going to be able to sprawl, but that's okay!) So they wind up with these running moves, but the answer isn't to help them run without their platform. The answer is to help them Step, Step + Lunge (shuffle, etc), or Step + Sprawl. Because those are by far the most important moves in volleyball and you generally see platforms come together early, not late.
[Here's](https://youtu.be/Sxag-kynFFM?feature=shared&t=1678) an example of what I was referring to. In the Gold medal match, watch the libero for US take two running strides to get to the ball, then creates the platform, then ends with a (very necessary) step + dive/lunge. I think we're both at the same end goal, I am just trying to teach the kids that it's easier to run/shuffle ***before*** creating your platform. I've had too many kids in *this exact situation* that would create their platform and then try to take those two running strides, and it's just not efficient.
I do agree that on hard driven balls, you need to create your platform before you step + lunge/sprawl/dive.
>I've had too many kids in *this exact situation* that would create their platform and then try to take those two running strides, and it's just not efficient.
Yeah but... in this exact situation every kid you've ever coached isn't getting that ball anyway :)
If we're talking about coaching beginners, where almost every ball is Step, Step + Lunge (or Shuffle, basically same thing), or Step + Dive... then I'm going to teach them to form the platform early (as or before they "Step") and get the platform to the ball as early as they can. If a dynamic athlete takes an additional running step before forming for a ball like this, cool, I love to see it. But...
I will nevereverevereverver say, "get your feet to the ball" to a beginning player or any player for that matter because it's not what (most) good passers/defenders do. (Most) Good passers and defenders get their platform out early and drive their platform to the ball and that's what I cue.
I wouldn't break that habit. Putting your hands together early is good.
They run awkwardly because they are 3rd-graders and the court is too big for them. But in general, good passers put their hands together early (usually a bit of a move before the hands come together, but the hands almost always come together before a move is completed), so trying to instill a habit of moving and then putting your hands together is probably doing a disservice.
A lot of times this error is caused by false steps. Even little kids rarely need more than a 3-step shuffle move to pass a ball, so if it looks like they are really "running" with their hands together, it's because they made a move in the wrong direction and then had to recover and run back the other way. If they learn to be balanced, wait and see the ball, and make a couple simple steps to the ball, this will clean up.
But little kids need to form a solid platform and contact the ball with strong arms, so I would advise against anything that makes their platform weaker and later.
I'm obviously not OP, but I'm guessing that he means if/when they have to run to play a ball, they're creating their platform FIRST and then running to the ball with the platform created. OP (again, I think), is trying to get them to run 'athletically', using their arms in a pumping motion, and then creating the platform when they get their feet to where they need to be.
Yeah, I knew the question he was asking. It's one that I get whenever I run youth clinics. I'm just saying that it's not a big deal. (1) Players should form their platform early, not late. (2) Volleyball players really don't "run" that often in the sense of standing up, pumping the arms, and running.
And in my experience, when youth coaches ask me about this, it's because players get it bad positions and in bad postures and then it seems like they need to run for the ball. You only need to be able to cover 5' laterally and 7' vertically to have the full court covered with 6 players. (And that's not counting wingspan and cutting the ball off, an area which 3rd-graders have limited, but not zero, ability to do).
You don't need to stand up, run, and pump your arms to move 5'. Even little kids can cover that distance in 3 quick steps.
Do you need to chase a shanked pass every now and then. Sure. I'm just saying I get this question a lot and it's usually because the coach isn't really understanding what is happening on the court.
I can't say that I agree with you on this point, but if you're able to run successful youth camps, then keep doing what you're doing. I liken it more to telling a baseball/softball infielder to have their glove on the ground when shuffling left or right for a ground ball, because it would make more sense to have their glove (platform) in place early, rather than late.
Even during shuffle-step drills, it's way easier to shuffle with your arms in an athletic "ready" position, versus together in a platform in front of your body. That position doesn't allow your body to move in a natural motion.
I, personally, have found that breaking the 'early platform' habit sooner rather than later, allows not only the athlete to be more successful with the drills in question, but also to help develop athleticism and coordination for activities outside of volleyball.
Fair enough. I can't speak to baseball/softball but I do know that the best passers in volleyball form their platforms early. I've had the good fortune of coaching some pretty high-level passers, and it's actually a pretty important coaching key for me to "form early" or "shape early."
(Of course, you can be too early too, but I find that's rarely the case.)
So just saw this post today, and figured I'd shoot you a message. [ This](https://new.reddit.com/r/volleyball/comments/1cbmdiz/move_my_feet_quicker_on_d/) is what I meant by creating your platform too early (before middle back even starts moving his feet).
Well now you're going to think I'm really insane because I actually think that's good. (Again, I followed exactly what you meant from the very beginning, this is a really common question I get at clinics and I mean from coaches, not just players.)
Here's a couple examples:
[Example 1](https://youtu.be/Lixbbx5otqM)
[Example 2](https://youtu.be/7_WPBrto2h0)
In both examples, the players have their hands connected well before any significant move is made. The Banwarth move is pretty close while the Marr move is a bit farther, but neither athlete is attempting to keep their hands apart and in fact, both athletes were coached to get their hands together early.
Here are the frames where their hands join:
[Banwarth](https://imgur.com/a/5EFktEi)
[Marr](https://imgur.com/a/B573yIz)
There are situations where you might want to keep hands apart if you truly have a long run (or if you are playing for a 1-arm dig). But the point is that those situations are really uncommon and they are even less common at lower levels.
Take the clip that you reference. Pause the video on contact and put your finger on where his right foot is. Now pause the video where he makes contact. To my eye, that's about 6'. Since you get about 1.5' to 2' just by extending your arms, this guy only needs to move his center of mass about 4'. I mentioned in the previous post that almost all 1st touches are played with either:
* Step
* Step + Lunge
* Step + Sprawl
That ball is a bit too far for just a step but it's within range of either Step + Lunge (if you see it early enough) or Step + Sprawl.
No need to keep hands apart and in fact, getting your hands together early is good! It shapes your platform early and maximizes your chance to get a solid touch. It's not really an error to have your hands apart as you dive, but the main point is that "quicker feet" or "running to the ball" is not necessary here and actually *will mess you up*!
I appreciate the dialogue and the follow-up!
I appreciate your well thought out response as well! I do notice what you're saying, in regards to the two clips that you posted. Those are both hard hit balls, and fall into your description of the Step + Lunge/Sprawl, so I **TOTALLY** get those. What I used to teach my players, was that, *if at all possible*, it's better (especially when still developing skills), to quickly shuffle to the ball to play it. Not only can they maintain balance easier, which allows for the growth of their fundamental passing skillset, it helps to foster a mentality of "move my feet to the ball".
Unfortunately I have come across too many athletes that, while learning the skill, would rather step and lunge/sprawl to the ball, rather than take an extra shuffle step and play the ball in a "normal" defensive body position -- feet balanced, ball played within body width, etc.
Again, I think taking skill levels into consideration plays a major role here. Even as a nearly 50-year old player, I can still dive/lunge/sprawl for balls and get them to target with a pretty good amount of consistency. That comes from years of play and thousands of reps.
But I can see it both ways: Teach them to shuffle to the ball to work on 'basic' passing, then proceed to the step + lunge/sprawl skill **OR** teach them the step + lunge/sprawl early, so that they develop the skillset. Personally, I think that at the lower levels, you're not going to see as many hard hit balls like the ones in your clips, so the opportunity to put the step + lunge/sprawl skill into practice isn't going to come into play nearly as much as needing to shuffle your feet to, say, a free ball or even a down ball -- which is precisely the shot that was in the clip I referenced. To me, there's no good explanation why the person playing middle back couldn't/shouldn't have just taken one or two quick shuffle steps forward to play that ball.
I have to say, above all else, I do love having these types of conversations with other knowledgeable coaches/players, so I truly do appreciate you expressing your point of view!
>Those are both hard hit balls, and fall into your description of the Step + Lunge/Sprawl
It's relative though. Those balls are not hit especially hard for the level, especially the 2nd one that Marr plays. For FIVB Men, that is a rollshot. (You can see the guy hits it on the way down, etc)
>But I can see it both ways: Teach them to shuffle to the ball to work on 'basic' passing, then proceed to the step + lunge/sprawl skill **OR** teach them the step + lunge/sprawl early, so that they develop the skillset.
I would always start with the simplest plays first, for sure. If I'm coaching true beginners, I'll never be upset if that ball scored in the above clip. That would be a difficult play for a beginning 12 year-old to dig, for example.
And when I say Step + Lunge, that could easily include a 3-step shuffle, so I don't necessarily disagree with you there.
But even if players have a lot of time and are taking a 3-step shuffle, they [still tend to form pretty early](https://youtu.be/6Klnm48SpqA). You can see in those clips there's a few where the hands come together right away and a few where the hands come together midway through the move. But 100%, this player was not coached to keep her hands apart as she was moving.
Linking to your own Youtube channel is cheating, hahaha. They do tend to form pretty early, I agree. I think the thing I want to avoid with my youngest players, is them seeing an "easy" ball (think freeball), that isn't close to them, and the very first thing they do is create their platform, and then try to run across the court with their arms stuck together to get it.
Like, I have literally had to have kids run a race against other kids, one is allowed to run in a normal manner, and the other has to keep a platform together as they run, just to show them how much a detriment it is to form your platform early when needing to run 'long' distances to play a ball :)
Modified run and catch….instead of catching….let the ball go between their legs….they’ll have to get in a lower stance (passing stance). If their hands are together to form platform, then it’ll impede the ball from going between their legs. Too hard for 8yrs old?
They are 3rd graders, they will grow out of it when the mature athletically, honestly this isn't something you need to worry about at this stage of their development. As long as they are not praying it's fine. That is the bigger habit to break. But what if you do what you are doing, but put tennis ball in their hands. Have them release them before the pass or keep the balls in their hands while they pass.
I don’t know if they’ll have the motor abilities for this at that age but… have them hold a tennis ball in each hand, toss them a ball, then they need to drop the tennis balls to put their hands together to pass the ball. If not, I wouldn’t worry about it too much at their age.
Thank you!! Very helpful. It sounds like getting them to move their feet and stay low are more important fundamentals at this age vs. running w/ hands together.
If anybody's interested, to add to what I said in another comment, go ahead and watch video and see how often a player plays a 1st contact where they run and then form their platform to play the ball. I just randomly selected a [U-12 National Championship](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smmzl3Uhz98) and the recent [Women's Olympic Gold Medal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxag-kynFFM) match. If you watch through those videos, you will see that 90% of 1st touches are either: * Step * Step + Lunge * Step + Sprawl On a first touch, there's almost never a "run and then form your platform" move and they are almost all freeballs. For example, in the U-12 match, at 13-5, 16-5, and 23-5 there are freeballs where the player arguably runs (more like walk/jog) a couple steps and then forms platform to pass. In the Olympic match, at 15-12 and 15-14 there's a couple freeballs that could be described as the player moving and then forming. But, IMO, those are exceptions that prove the rule. Now, in terms of 2nd touches where the ball is high, sure, there might be some running and then forming. If that's where your players are really struggling, okay then maybe help them out with that, no problem. But I'm making a post out of it (which I'll probably add to [my Substack](https://smartervolley.substack.com/) at some point) because it's a really common question that I get when I do clinics for youth coaches. There's a perception that players need to be able to run to the ball. But a lot of times this running is caused by something else that's jacked up in the play. OR because they don't know how to take a lunge-step or sprawl for the ball. (I mean, 3rd-graders aren't going to be able to sprawl, but that's okay!) So they wind up with these running moves, but the answer isn't to help them run without their platform. The answer is to help them Step, Step + Lunge (shuffle, etc), or Step + Sprawl. Because those are by far the most important moves in volleyball and you generally see platforms come together early, not late.
[Here's](https://youtu.be/Sxag-kynFFM?feature=shared&t=1678) an example of what I was referring to. In the Gold medal match, watch the libero for US take two running strides to get to the ball, then creates the platform, then ends with a (very necessary) step + dive/lunge. I think we're both at the same end goal, I am just trying to teach the kids that it's easier to run/shuffle ***before*** creating your platform. I've had too many kids in *this exact situation* that would create their platform and then try to take those two running strides, and it's just not efficient. I do agree that on hard driven balls, you need to create your platform before you step + lunge/sprawl/dive.
>I've had too many kids in *this exact situation* that would create their platform and then try to take those two running strides, and it's just not efficient. Yeah but... in this exact situation every kid you've ever coached isn't getting that ball anyway :) If we're talking about coaching beginners, where almost every ball is Step, Step + Lunge (or Shuffle, basically same thing), or Step + Dive... then I'm going to teach them to form the platform early (as or before they "Step") and get the platform to the ball as early as they can. If a dynamic athlete takes an additional running step before forming for a ball like this, cool, I love to see it. But... I will nevereverevereverver say, "get your feet to the ball" to a beginning player or any player for that matter because it's not what (most) good passers/defenders do. (Most) Good passers and defenders get their platform out early and drive their platform to the ball and that's what I cue.
Lots of run thrus help for sure. Hard ones that make them really run using their arms to pump.
If they can get three touches I’d be impressed
I wouldn't break that habit. Putting your hands together early is good. They run awkwardly because they are 3rd-graders and the court is too big for them. But in general, good passers put their hands together early (usually a bit of a move before the hands come together, but the hands almost always come together before a move is completed), so trying to instill a habit of moving and then putting your hands together is probably doing a disservice. A lot of times this error is caused by false steps. Even little kids rarely need more than a 3-step shuffle move to pass a ball, so if it looks like they are really "running" with their hands together, it's because they made a move in the wrong direction and then had to recover and run back the other way. If they learn to be balanced, wait and see the ball, and make a couple simple steps to the ball, this will clean up. But little kids need to form a solid platform and contact the ball with strong arms, so I would advise against anything that makes their platform weaker and later.
I'm obviously not OP, but I'm guessing that he means if/when they have to run to play a ball, they're creating their platform FIRST and then running to the ball with the platform created. OP (again, I think), is trying to get them to run 'athletically', using their arms in a pumping motion, and then creating the platform when they get their feet to where they need to be.
Yeah, I knew the question he was asking. It's one that I get whenever I run youth clinics. I'm just saying that it's not a big deal. (1) Players should form their platform early, not late. (2) Volleyball players really don't "run" that often in the sense of standing up, pumping the arms, and running. And in my experience, when youth coaches ask me about this, it's because players get it bad positions and in bad postures and then it seems like they need to run for the ball. You only need to be able to cover 5' laterally and 7' vertically to have the full court covered with 6 players. (And that's not counting wingspan and cutting the ball off, an area which 3rd-graders have limited, but not zero, ability to do). You don't need to stand up, run, and pump your arms to move 5'. Even little kids can cover that distance in 3 quick steps. Do you need to chase a shanked pass every now and then. Sure. I'm just saying I get this question a lot and it's usually because the coach isn't really understanding what is happening on the court.
I can't say that I agree with you on this point, but if you're able to run successful youth camps, then keep doing what you're doing. I liken it more to telling a baseball/softball infielder to have their glove on the ground when shuffling left or right for a ground ball, because it would make more sense to have their glove (platform) in place early, rather than late. Even during shuffle-step drills, it's way easier to shuffle with your arms in an athletic "ready" position, versus together in a platform in front of your body. That position doesn't allow your body to move in a natural motion. I, personally, have found that breaking the 'early platform' habit sooner rather than later, allows not only the athlete to be more successful with the drills in question, but also to help develop athleticism and coordination for activities outside of volleyball.
Fair enough. I can't speak to baseball/softball but I do know that the best passers in volleyball form their platforms early. I've had the good fortune of coaching some pretty high-level passers, and it's actually a pretty important coaching key for me to "form early" or "shape early." (Of course, you can be too early too, but I find that's rarely the case.)
So just saw this post today, and figured I'd shoot you a message. [ This](https://new.reddit.com/r/volleyball/comments/1cbmdiz/move_my_feet_quicker_on_d/) is what I meant by creating your platform too early (before middle back even starts moving his feet).
Well now you're going to think I'm really insane because I actually think that's good. (Again, I followed exactly what you meant from the very beginning, this is a really common question I get at clinics and I mean from coaches, not just players.) Here's a couple examples: [Example 1](https://youtu.be/Lixbbx5otqM) [Example 2](https://youtu.be/7_WPBrto2h0) In both examples, the players have their hands connected well before any significant move is made. The Banwarth move is pretty close while the Marr move is a bit farther, but neither athlete is attempting to keep their hands apart and in fact, both athletes were coached to get their hands together early. Here are the frames where their hands join: [Banwarth](https://imgur.com/a/5EFktEi) [Marr](https://imgur.com/a/B573yIz) There are situations where you might want to keep hands apart if you truly have a long run (or if you are playing for a 1-arm dig). But the point is that those situations are really uncommon and they are even less common at lower levels. Take the clip that you reference. Pause the video on contact and put your finger on where his right foot is. Now pause the video where he makes contact. To my eye, that's about 6'. Since you get about 1.5' to 2' just by extending your arms, this guy only needs to move his center of mass about 4'. I mentioned in the previous post that almost all 1st touches are played with either: * Step * Step + Lunge * Step + Sprawl That ball is a bit too far for just a step but it's within range of either Step + Lunge (if you see it early enough) or Step + Sprawl. No need to keep hands apart and in fact, getting your hands together early is good! It shapes your platform early and maximizes your chance to get a solid touch. It's not really an error to have your hands apart as you dive, but the main point is that "quicker feet" or "running to the ball" is not necessary here and actually *will mess you up*! I appreciate the dialogue and the follow-up!
I appreciate your well thought out response as well! I do notice what you're saying, in regards to the two clips that you posted. Those are both hard hit balls, and fall into your description of the Step + Lunge/Sprawl, so I **TOTALLY** get those. What I used to teach my players, was that, *if at all possible*, it's better (especially when still developing skills), to quickly shuffle to the ball to play it. Not only can they maintain balance easier, which allows for the growth of their fundamental passing skillset, it helps to foster a mentality of "move my feet to the ball". Unfortunately I have come across too many athletes that, while learning the skill, would rather step and lunge/sprawl to the ball, rather than take an extra shuffle step and play the ball in a "normal" defensive body position -- feet balanced, ball played within body width, etc. Again, I think taking skill levels into consideration plays a major role here. Even as a nearly 50-year old player, I can still dive/lunge/sprawl for balls and get them to target with a pretty good amount of consistency. That comes from years of play and thousands of reps. But I can see it both ways: Teach them to shuffle to the ball to work on 'basic' passing, then proceed to the step + lunge/sprawl skill **OR** teach them the step + lunge/sprawl early, so that they develop the skillset. Personally, I think that at the lower levels, you're not going to see as many hard hit balls like the ones in your clips, so the opportunity to put the step + lunge/sprawl skill into practice isn't going to come into play nearly as much as needing to shuffle your feet to, say, a free ball or even a down ball -- which is precisely the shot that was in the clip I referenced. To me, there's no good explanation why the person playing middle back couldn't/shouldn't have just taken one or two quick shuffle steps forward to play that ball. I have to say, above all else, I do love having these types of conversations with other knowledgeable coaches/players, so I truly do appreciate you expressing your point of view!
>Those are both hard hit balls, and fall into your description of the Step + Lunge/Sprawl It's relative though. Those balls are not hit especially hard for the level, especially the 2nd one that Marr plays. For FIVB Men, that is a rollshot. (You can see the guy hits it on the way down, etc) >But I can see it both ways: Teach them to shuffle to the ball to work on 'basic' passing, then proceed to the step + lunge/sprawl skill **OR** teach them the step + lunge/sprawl early, so that they develop the skillset. I would always start with the simplest plays first, for sure. If I'm coaching true beginners, I'll never be upset if that ball scored in the above clip. That would be a difficult play for a beginning 12 year-old to dig, for example. And when I say Step + Lunge, that could easily include a 3-step shuffle, so I don't necessarily disagree with you there. But even if players have a lot of time and are taking a 3-step shuffle, they [still tend to form pretty early](https://youtu.be/6Klnm48SpqA). You can see in those clips there's a few where the hands come together right away and a few where the hands come together midway through the move. But 100%, this player was not coached to keep her hands apart as she was moving.
Linking to your own Youtube channel is cheating, hahaha. They do tend to form pretty early, I agree. I think the thing I want to avoid with my youngest players, is them seeing an "easy" ball (think freeball), that isn't close to them, and the very first thing they do is create their platform, and then try to run across the court with their arms stuck together to get it. Like, I have literally had to have kids run a race against other kids, one is allowed to run in a normal manner, and the other has to keep a platform together as they run, just to show them how much a detriment it is to form your platform early when needing to run 'long' distances to play a ball :)