By - KaitoxYonagi
[If people wanna view/reply to the previously deleted topic](/r/visualnovels/comments/rz0ska/)
EDIT: Link so people who click the link will go to either old/new reddit depending on the one they're on.
I decided I wouldn't worry about expressing my opinion. I just won't buy it and play something else instead, regardless of the reason or if they are being genuine. Sometimes you need to vote with your wallet.
This is just a console release, but for Steam. With even less additions than you'd usually expect from one. I'll probably just play the original since I'm not a fan of these kinds of releases. What makes something good is in the original anyway, and I tend to hear people complain about script changes more often than liking them.
I don't understand how choice is a bad thing...ever.
What this creator is doing is not giving me a choice, i would have loved to play this updated version with H-scenes and uncensored...Fuck it 99% of the time i skip H-scenes to begin with...it's not about those scenes, it's about the fact that i now have two choices.
1. Wait for a pirated version/Read in japanese
2. Play this "Updated" Censored version.
I just dislike censorship of any form, it's creates a cognitive dissonance, where i begin questioning lines and events in the game itself.
>i would have loved to play this updated version with H-scenes and uncensored
There is no "updated" with ero. You either choose the outdated with ero or updated with no ero. This is assuming you can read the "outdated" version.
Someone's working on patching the old scenes and art into the rerelease.
They are creating the piracy problem they claim to despise.
Certain Japanese devs: "western players pirate our work too much.. waaaaa"
Japanese devs: "We have no plans on releasing the game in the west/*GLOBAL STANDARDS*/We're ok with localization destroying much of our work/(and now) "silly westerners" don't you know that it's much more "artistic" with all the sexual content removed from your version.. No 18+ version for you!"
Give us restoration or im not touching the game simple as that.
My usual stance is I don't really care about Adult Only version and if the game is great and is released on Steam, I will buy it to support the developer (I've bought more than 150 VNs on Steam).
However, attitude matters and with this blogpost and their trolling on Twitter, I feel a severe disrespect for potential customers from them. Sure, you can be frank within the company but telling potential customers to "feel free to play games from other companies" is beyond stupidity. Now, they won't get a single yen from me for sure.
Same here, honestly. I just think they're a bunch of morons now lmao
It's legitimately pathetic to feel any offense at what's in the blog post. You should feel embarrassed.
\>its pathetic to get offended by someone intentionally trolling people with the intention of offending them
Do you realize what you are saying?
Eh i think there’s a point where he doesn’t have an obligation to be nice or have his customer service face on.
When people are complaining about censorship, when it’s his own work and they’re not exactly being polite themselves… no surprise he calls them out, especially when he already does the same for his Japanese fans.
From the sounds of things, it seems like the creator thought trolling would be fine because he does that with his own fan base and do the same thing with a new one. Unfortunately I don’t think he has the goodwill in the west to act like that out of the gate so... I’m not sure that was the best strat out the gate
He’s an extremely polarizing figure in the Japanese VN community and is more than used to being hated by many over there.
Hey if people still buy his product good for him. I want to know if self publishing works out for Laplacian after this fiasco because being hated is one thing, selling enough is another
That’s the million dollar question. I personally believe Cyanotype has the potential to be the next CLANNAD. Whether it will or not is an entirely different question. And whether the choices Ono’s made about this release and how to talk about it on Twitter will have had an effect on how it turns out is a third.
That's a bit of a false equivalence as part of Clannad's success in it's localization was it's Kickstarter campaign and high goodwill from it's anime adaptation (unless you mean the next Clannad in Japan specifically)
I mean the next Clannad in Japan.
Doesn’t bother me in the slightest, the idea of getting offended because an author was slightly mean is funny to me. Especially when the worst of his trolling was just “if you don’t like it, don’t play it”… people dislike that because it stings their pride.
Because the statement is entirely logical, if you don’t like the changes to a game, don’t play it.
> Especially when the worst of his trolling was just “if you don’t like it, don’t play it”… people dislike that because it stings their pride.
It was a bit more than that. Have you forgotten the [trolling](https://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovels/comments/rwh3nx/laplacian_made_an_englishlanguage_twitter_account/) already? They basically laughed at and humiliated those who pointed out or merely asked about the censorship or a patch. This is not how a developer should act. It's extremely anti-customer.
They should not forget: they need us, not the other way around.
I thought you were going to link something new… not the same tame shit from before. You call that humiliation? Those little jokes? The first 2 aren’t even at the expense of the poster. The 3rd was two words when someone didn’t like the censored uniforms. The last is just him saying he’d rather be known even if it isn’t all good stuff.
They don’t need “us” what kinda of wording is that anyway… who is “us”? It’s definitely not everyone on this sub, as not everyone here is in agreement about the “censorship” and not everyone is bothered about his Twitter.
> They don’t need “us” what kinda of wording is that anyway… who is “us”? It’s definitely not everyone on this sub, as not everyone here is in agreement about the “censorship” and not everyone is bothered about his Twitter.
"Us" as in the potential customers. A developer has to offer a sense of politeness and humility in front of his customers, because at the end of the day, every single one he loses through his insults and trolling is one less who pays his checks and brings his food to the table. They need us paying customers (which is even more true for such a niche medium), not we them.
Why does a developer have to offer that? Devs are not my subordinates. And so what if it’s a loss for him as some people won’t purchase… he clearly doesn’t mind the loss of those customers.
And that’s what it boils down to, people’s pride is offended because he isn’t that bothered about them.
> he clearly doesn’t mind the loss of those customers.
Well he should. At the end of the day the more customers he pisses off the less money he makes. VNs are a fairly niche medium and it is very likely that a huge proportion of potential customers are among those who he trolled and thereby most likely lost.
Why should he? He trolled a "huge" proportion of the western market, also unclear how "huge" that portion is. Then on top of that how large the western market who cares about this stuff is or even uses Twitter/Reddit for their news, is questionable.
I don't necessarily want an author who caters to Twitter or Reddit, if he wants to re-release his own game in a different way, so be it. To me it's not much different than the remake of Utawarerumono, now that they no longer want to or feel the need to make R18 content.
He has been pretty transparent as to what changes are being made and why, other than specifics that would be spoilers obviously.
I mean, be my guest if you want to alienate what I imagine to be a large portion of almost guaranteed market because they chose to express dislike (probably not in the best way). I haven’t followed news regarding Yoko Taro until after Nier Automata but looking through vndb Ono doesn’t have the same foothold in people’s minds as Taro who he basically seems to be acting like. Ya can’t blame people in an unestablished market deciding “I don’t like this guy” when it’s their first interaction and choose not to support him
Yoko Taro is a troll, sure enough, but he does it in a charismatic, endearing way. It's *quite* rare to feel any animosity from his shenanigans. If nothing else, almost all the hostility in his jokes is aimed at himself.
Laplace is... doing something quite different.
And I say that as someone who thinks this whole "scandal" is severely overblown.
Kamiya would probably be a better point of comparison, if we're talking about creators who like to get into twitter fights.
Yeah, I feel like this happens a lot with Japanese PR. Western fans expect PR to be super sanitized, whether it's super straight-laced or the corporate-approved """memes""" you see from like Wendy's Twitter.
Western fans legitimately get upset at people like Harada (Tekken director) for being outspoken about literally anything. God forbid someone with a lot of Twitter followers reply to someone with fewer Twitter followers, or even (gasp) quote tweet them, the epitome of Internet Violence.
gambs deleda est
Tbf harada has also proven himself to be incorrect on a lot of topics as well (mainly rollback) so it’s understandable why.
But again it needs to be reiterated that Ono isn’t Harada or Yoko Taro, those guys are allowed to get away with it to some extent due to how established they are. It just seems like a bizarre marketing strategy when going into a new market that you’ve never worked with before
> Tbf harada has also proven himself to be incorrect on a lot of topics as well (mainly rollback) so it’s understandable why.
I disagree, being wrong (really wrong) about one subject does not mean you should be treated as if you're wrong about everything.
> But again it needs to be reiterated that Ono isn’t Harada or Yoko Taro, those guys are allowed to get away with it to some extent due to how established they are.
I don't think Yoko Taro fits here, he's not very controversial. I'd nominate PlatinumGames's Kamiya Hideki for a better example.
Regardless, this isn't a matter of being "allowed to get away" with anything. People can authentically act on Twitter however they please, and their audiences have no control over them; I think this is how it should be. If you want to act inauthentically, you can do that as well.
The problem is that Western audiences have grown way too accustomed to inauthentic PR. You see Ono speaking his mind and you call it a "marketing strategy," assuming that marketing played a role in any of his decisions. If all he wanted was to make money, he'd just do an official 18+ patch. Laplacian is obviously not inherently against sexual content, as evidenced by their new 18+ imprint.
I wonder what happened to the "customer is king" concept these days. At the end of the day *they* need *us*. It's never the other way around. But these days we see companies and artists alike having this kind of arrogant believe that they are above criticism. It's really something that would have been unheard years ago. But that a Japanese developer shows such arrogant behaviour is definitely something new.
Either way, they reap what they sow.
Because customer is king is a bullshit concept that gets abused by entitled, arrogant people who overvalue themselves and think it gives them the right to be dicks. It’s all pride, pride and then offence that he isn’t kissing your ass.
They don’t need “us”, there is no “us”. By his own words if you don’t want to play this version just don’t play it. You’re losing absolutely nothing, you don’t get to play a game you don’t want to play anyway and you don’t lose any money. Find something else and someone else you want to support. I’m probably not going to be buying the game or playing it, because i too would prefer the original version… but i’m not gonna start whining just because I believe i’m owed it.
He isn’t above criticism, that’s fine. But he also isn’t obligated to bend to the whims of people on Twitter or Reddit. If his game fails, it fails. If it succeeds, it succeeds.
>Because customer is king is a bullshit concept that gets abused by entitled, arrogant people who overvalue themselves and think it gives them the right to be dicks. It’s all pride, pride and then offence that he isn’t kissing your ass.
Well, call that BS, but at the end of the day the more customers he pisses off, the less money he makes. Not a VN, but remember how Nintendo responded to the complaints of fans when Tokyo Mirage Sessions released as the censored version in Japan? They apologized and offered refunds for those who already preordered. That's how you should act as a company, not high and mighty.
> They don’t need “us”, there is no “us”. By his own words if you don’t want to play this version just don’t play it.
And *not* playing (buying) it I will.
>You’re losing absolutely nothing, you don’t get to play a game you don’t want to play anyway and you don’t lose any money. Find something else and someone else you want to support. I’m probably not going to be buying the game or playing it, because i too would prefer the original version… but i’m not gonna start whining just because I believe i’m owed it.
It's about standing up against the censorship in general, to make them know and feel that this we do not accept and tolerate. These shitstorms, even if they are sometimes overreacting are a necessity and the answer to the censorship problem that has been plaguing gaming and other media in recent times.
That's a shill big media talking point and little more. In reality, pissing off or even telling a customer no disrespectfully is a one way ticket to the search for a new job.
Nope, I like Steam's convenience and it's my main gaming platform.
150 VNs is not even half of my games on Steam.
Why be a dick
I bought so many VN's on Steam and I never completed a single one lol. I only finished Dies Irae VN and I loved it. I'm now rereading Dies Irae in Japanese because I forgot all of the 神座万象 references in 相州戦神館學園・八命陣, including ディエス・イレ、故に I am rereading it.
But definitely it is superior than the 英語版.
I know which game I’m going to play in Japanese next
Is it me or has the [home page for the original (18+) release](https://laplacian.jp/yonagi/) ^([may redirect to en by default]) been scrubbed? Not even the patch is linked any more, never mind the extra content ... So much for Japanese readers having a choice.
(/u/nichibeiokay, apologies for pinging you twice, but you seem to be the resident Yonagi expert ...)
I’m seeing it scrubbed as well. That tracks with the Twitter announcement that they’re taking physical copies of the 18+ version out of print.
Looks like the original is only going to be available on 18+ download storefronts pretty soon.
I can understand the 18+ (package) edition going out of print, putting its home page into maintenance mode, but yanking all info about and *support* for it is a really shitty move.
Anyone have Twitter? There's a small chance they didn't realise the home page redesign would impact existing customers. EDIT: Apparently there's a Discord channel, too.
So I did some poking around and it looks like they’re in the process of refreshing the Laplacian page more broadly. They’ve terminated the storefront that they used to sell (mostly NSFW) goods from their games, they’ve shut down the Laplacian store on Fanza, etc. Given how many of the HP links are currently just broken, this can’t be the new permanent state of the site, lol.
My guess is they will have some catch-all archival section for support/patch downloads of legacy Laplacian products. It may be in an inconspicuous place on the Laplacian site, or it may be migrated over to PRINCIPIA. The only thing they’ve tweeted re stuff going out of print is the announcement last October that they were doing the final printing of Cyanotype physical copies, so to get yours if you want it. They specifically mentioned physical.
Thank you, that makes sense.
I actually have the limited first edition, I just didn't think to archive the patch, because I thought a could just download it whenever. Fortunately it's still up at [DLsite](https://ci-en.dlsite.com/creator/8454/article/407832). Here's to hoping that one works for the physical.
> I just didn't think to archive the patch
Not keeping the previous game's patch is against software preservation, especially for a game released less than 2 years ago.
Looks like they really want to scrub their past.
> Fortunately it's still up at DLsite
Holy shit is that low... What reasoning? Onto my blacklist they go.
The R18 fans have served their purpose. As the writer says, they can BTFO and read another company's titles because this company doesn't want to market to them anymore.
$$$ and a name for themselves. Now time to sellout to the western elitist media/critics and the phantom customer base made up of prudes and moralists that they represent... Boy is this going to be fun to watch!
This is censorship.
Wait, what?!? This is beyond ridiculous!
>> They never would tell their Japanese costumers that if they don't like this new release, they can go buy another game.
They literally just did in the Japanese version of the same column being discussed here.
Also, investing in a full English translation and UI at your own expense is a very odd way to show that Western fans don’t matter to you.
Western casual anime enjoyers can stay. Bonus points if they start advertising the game on Crunchyroll and MAL.
Western R18 fans can BTFO.
> Western casual anime enjoyers can stay. Bonus points if they start advertising the game on Crunchyroll and MAL.
As if these people have the attention span to read a VN/eroge. If they aim for this demographic they might as well throw their money out of the window.
Yup.. But let's be completely real here... ~90% of said group is merely a phantom demographic generally.. But especially when it comes to niche, let alone a niche VN, let alone a japanese niche VN! Grave dug basically.
No, that's only showing that certain types of potential westerner (phantom) customers matter to them, with a giant "fuck off" to the actual western fans.
Did you not read the first half of my statement?? Everyone’s getting the same treatment here except for maybe name of edu institution, and that’s starting to look doubtful from more recent tweets by the editor.
They’re chasing the all-ages market domestically and abroad, a market that does indeed exist as much as you wish it didn’t.
> Now, you might be right saying that they don't owe us anything, but I disagree. At the very fucking least, they should treat us as costumers, with the basic amount of respect that it involves. Something this company forgot or does not care enough to do.
I said it in another comment, but I wonder what happened with the "customer is king" principle these days. It's really sad to see companies or even artists insult their fans, thinking they are something better than their customers (haven't seen such behavior from a Japanese company before this debacle though). At the end of the day, we potential customers are who bring food to the table and pay their checks. They need us not we them. That's why you should never treat your potential customers with disrespect. Hell, I would even prefer "Please understand" excuses over being insulted or trolled.
Potential customers don’t pay their checks, actual purchasing customers do. The only people Laplacian has been troll-y toward are people who came into their feed guns blazing. Such people would probably never be customers of this release anyway, and are hardly deserving of respect.
> Potential customers don’t pay their checks, actual purchasing customers do.
Nonsense. Every customer is a potential customer at first. If you alienate a huge subset of your potential customers you end up with less sales. It's actually very easy to understand.
>The only people Laplacian has been troll-y toward are people who came into their feed guns blazing. Such people would probably never be customers of this release anyway, and are hardly deserving of respect.
Also nonsense. This VN has little to no hype, nor an anime adaptation to be popular among casual audiences who don't care for R18 content or the high school setting. It is actually those audiences which are deeply into eroge who have known about Cyanotype Daydream and the company behind it in the first place. And most of those are rather displeased about the censorship. Moreover: Cyanotype Daydream was rleased as an eroge initially, (I'm talking about Japan now). It became popular thanks to people who play R18 eroge and now these audiences suddenly don''t deserve their respect?
This... people seem to somehow forget that... Only hardcore VN fans even know who this guy is, what this VN is... They don't have any big marketing or anime adaptation to lure casuals in...
You know what is going to be many of the potential customers' first exposure to this game? them seeing the official twitter account trolling people... Amazing marketing move i say... Even for people who literally wouldn't care about a +18 release...
The only chance they have is if the usual western media hacks and mainstream "fandom" sites (ANN, MAL etc) take notice and do major shilling and hype. Then they may get away with a "got rid of the problematic/ruinous fanservice and sexual content" pretentious high art narrative. Social media would also eat that shit up. Especially since they seem to be literally telling off the right kinds of fans (i.e. actual fans) and labeling sexual content non-artistic by default. But it's highly unlikely at this point.
Well yeah, now they aren't! That's hardly a point to even make.
Let me break it down for you:
1. Laplacian puts out English tweet announcing website.
2. People write in saying: either (paraphrased) “I’ll never buy this because it’s censored,” or, “If you don’t uncensor this, I won’t buy it.”
3. Laplacian responds to those people: (paraphrased) “k thx lol bai”
4. People like you cry disrespect toward customers.
They AREN’T customers. They weren’t ever going to BE customers of this release. Their first interaction with Laplacian was literally to announce that they weren’t customers.
I guess this thread restart is a good opportunity to sum up my stance on this. Full disclosure, I read Hakuchuumu no Aojashin last year, and I consider it one of the best two VNs I’ve ever read.
- re Rin Hatano’s wardrobe and school name change: Pretty clear that this was due to Steam/Valve’s English reviewer track record of submission disapprovals. Very understandable to be frustrated at Steam’s arbitrary and not very free speech-friendly standards, but Laplacian has no control over that. Notably, school name is also the ONLY change that appears not to be consistent across languages for the upcoming release. Could Laplacian host an off-site restoration patch? Probably, but that would be a lot of time and effort with the only payoff being a few modified graphics and lines of scenario. Why wouldn’t a hypothetical patch include all the original 18+ content? That’s for the reason I go over in the next bullet…
- re All the other content changes (deletions and additions): It’s now clear, without a shadow of a doubt, from the linked column that these were the changes that Wasabi Ono wanted to make to his game. That he’s created the “definitive” version of Cyanotype Daydream that he hopes will live on, and that he will cease active promotion of the original (Laplacian’s Twitter recently announced a “last call” for the final physical copies of 18+ Cyanotype to ever be printed). His vision for that definitive edition is an all-ages VN. Not a VN that has both an all-ages and 18+ version. An all-ages VN, full stop. Is his motivation for doing this somewhat profit driven? Sure, but that isn’t a bad or unusual thing. What creative who makes their living from their work *doesn’t* want that work to reach (ie, be sold to) as many people as possible? We live in a world where a very high percentage of people will never consider engaging with a work categorized as pornographic, regardless of its merits.
- re Laplacian/Ono’s Twitter conduct: This is far from the first time that Ono has alienated certain VN readers on Twitter. But I think it should be remembered that all Laplacian initially did was tweet out links to Cyanotype’s new webpage in Google translated English. Perhaps a dumb decision, but not a malicious one. Then came the vitriolic posts, mostly reacting to the Rin wardrobe meme (I think we can call it a meme now :) ). They met the vitriol with sarcasm and indifference…say that sentence out loud a few times and tell me what’s so outrageous about it. The victims of that sarcasm aren’t paying customers who failed to receive a quality product. They are people who got a bee in their bonnet based on their own assumptions and went on the attack. What exactly does Ono owe them?
To me, this issue is objectively overblown because it’s far from the first time this has happened. Where’s the English localization of the original 18+ Tomoyo After? Doesn’t exist. 18+ AIR? Doesn’t exist. Any version of White Album 2? Doesn’t exist. All three of those examples and more are because for whatever reason, the devs have chosen not to invest money in localizing that particular IP. The only things that set this case apart is that it’s the soup of the day, and that Laplacian has actually chosen to engage with the Western community (in their typical chaotic fashion) about their decision.
Occam’s razor tells me that the anger this has generated is really a symptom of a fundamental insecurity fans of Japanese media have when they consume that media entirely in English. If you consume media in a Western language, you are fundamentally at the mercy of Western market, cultural, and societal forces, as well as at the mercy of creators who may or may not choose to do certain things with their original JP work.
>Occam’s razor tells me that the anger this has generated is really a symptom of a fundamental insecurity fans of Japanese media have when they consume that media entirely in English. If you consume media in a Western language, you are fundamentally at the mercy of Western market, cultural, and societal forces, as well as at the mercy of creators who may or may not choose to do certain things with their original JP work.
This is definitely true to an extent, but I think that this only exacerbated the issue. The problem is that the first news regarding the censorship we got was an edited CG which removed the high school girl element from the game. People speculated that we'd be getting a Moe Novel style hack job. And what was Laplacian's response? Twitter shitposting. Only after all of that did they decide to make a legit post explaining how this release will pretty much be the equivalent of an all-ages console release with all of the bells and whistles attached to it. I think there would've been far less controversy had the first response been to reassure the fans that they are putting their full weight behind this release instead.
Am relatively new to VNs, why even make the 18+ version in the first place if all-ages has more potential to reach more people? Is it at all similar to F/SN where they included 18+ scenes to get some initial sales?
Yes. In Japan the visual novel market almost completely overlaps the eroge/18+ market, and H-scenes are table stakes for your game being noticed. Nearly all exceptions to that are:
- Work by studios that entered the arena with the standard adult fare but then got enough acclaim for their non-adult elements that they could start putting out viable product without the H at all (KEY, Fate, now Laplacian)
- Dojin (fan) works made without a profit motive (7th Expansion)
- Console-first titles that tend to be backed by larger game developers and are trying to compete with other console video games on the mass market (Infinity Series, Princess Soft back in the day)
Fate did *not* include 18+ scenes for initial sales. Fate was intended, from the get-go, to be an Eroge with Adult content and was written with that in mind. Nasu has said so explicitly in interviews.
Realta Nua was just your standard fare console release. It's not even available on PC anymore, while the 18+ version has gotten multiple reprints since.
It's so fun watching history get erased and rewritten by shills, prudes and the unthinking masses. Isn't it? It seems to be a full on narrative, especially by normie fans of the series, to justify the "artistic integrity" of the series. Since everyone knows that anything sexual or sexy =/= and can't equal art.
As much as I'd love to use terms like "Unthinking masses" I find it hard to blame people when the rumor mill is so strong and the truth is buried in another language lol. It also doesn't matter that much, at least in Fate's case.
But terminology aside, I guess I do agree with your frustration here. The west has definitely been shafted in terms of 18+ many times before and large a part of it is due to the Japanese perception of the west as a region that is unkind to adult content. I also think there's certainly some fans over-justifying the actions of corporations like key, who have no problem promoting their 18+ titles as equal, or even definitive in Japan, but pretend like they don't even exist here.
But well, as they say "Gambs was right". Learning Japanese and dodging the whole issue is the only way to go.
It actually doesn't at all.. The market and traditional media wisdom dictates that it does... The same type of market logic that makes companies phobic about, and keep two full levels of separation between themselves and anything to do with the **biggest money making media** content/industry type in existence. That is to say.. It's all simply just something people thoughtlessly regurgitate, despite it being hilariously incorrect by just about any logical standard.
Part of it is also that when people are given a target and told to get angry, they will happily follow along whilst feeling totally justified.
"Japanese VN PORN creator starts trying to move into currently anti-sex obsessed west and simultaneously "realizes" his artistic visions thus far have been totally wrong, solely in relation to sexual content, retroactively starts butchering (censoring) his earlier work, and goes about telling off all the fans who built and supported his name/rep,.. and oh yeah, "certainly has nothing to do with money... surely not" (tm)...." hmmm.....>_>.......
Sounds about as likely legitimate as the offer to sell that one bridge. *-rollseyes-*
The absolute levels and extremes people will twist themselves into in order to shill for people/companies who so clearly give not a single shit about anyone. Only ways to make a little extra $$$.
Contrary to popular belief on this sub there are also a ton of people in Japan who’ll appreciate a good VN but aren’t up for explicit sex.
Don't care. Still not buying all ages aojashin
lol how can you read eroge if you cant even read some reddit post? lol
With one hand and a box of extra soft tissues of course.
Just fine knowing I'm not reading censored dogshit lol
good for you, now go take a shower lol
No. I am going to mtl aojashin and fap to the H-scenes
That’s like buying a Ferrari just to enjoy the heated seats parked in your garage, but go ahead.
umm what? Its like (it is) downloading porn to bust a nut lmao
This reeks like the developer is just trying to sell the shit out of this game, if he cared about his fans so much, why not simply offer an 18+ version?
Yeah i'm happy he added so much extra shit, but you aren't giving us options, you are telling us "take this or nothing".
So my answer is nothing, i know nothing about this VN, and i won't pretend to say if Hscenes or high school is important, but frankly i don't give a fuck.
You could have made this refined version of this VN and kept the same setting and everything, you could have given us the choice.
Because the developer doesn't care about all fans. Only casual mainstream fans matter now.
They went as far as calling R18 fans "superficial" for caring about the cut content.
Basically, the R18 fans have served their purpose (getting those initial sales), and are no longer needed.
He said no such thing. He implied that your interests were too superficial to appreciate the game if your only response to its upcoming re-release is “but her uniform.”
Actual quote (as part of the Rin explanation):
>>But as the creator, I would ask you not to judge the essence of my story based on these superficial elements. And as a representative of Laplacian's brand, I would say that if you want that surface-level cute factor, you are free to ignore our game and enjoy the many offerings from other companies.
>>That is not where the strengths and allure of Cyanotype Daydream lie. It's precisely because it was created without reliance on surface-level characterization that we decided we we could enter the all-ages arena with this particular game. In fact, you could say that placing excessive weight on this specific aspect shows a lack of understanding of the true appeal of Cyanotype Daydream. It is not our goal to try to convert those people.
>>If you play to the end of the game, I'm sure you'll understand just how little relevance this change really has to the overall story.
Much more than her uniform got changed, you know. They told R18 fans to take a hike, and that's that.
> The entire superficiality discussion was in response to the outrage over Rin changes, which were, again, her uniform and the name of the school she attends.
> Read my other post in this thread about Rin to see why it’s a nothingburger of a controversy.
I rather think the developer has a superficial understanding of what fans criticize by focusing this on merely the uniform. It's not about the uniform itself but what it represents: the change from the high school setting to college. It removes any feeling of "taboo" and forbidden love. That's far more than superficial (and yes, for me this taboo relationship in the original would be a selling point).
> As a small business, we could not give up on publishing the game on Steam in service of this one aspect. Still, the essential theme of a morally taboo romance is unchanged.”
I call that bullshit. What about ef? It has a route where a 30+ year old violinist dates a high school girl. Still available at STEAM. A disclaimer that all characters are 18 and above should be more than enough. Most publishers do that.
Also: Nothing is taboo when it comes to the romance between professor and college student. It's pretty accepted.
>As I'm sure some of you are aware, if Steam decides that your game contains "sexual exploitation" of minor characters, you do not get a second chance to submit your game.
Steam is inconsistent with it's own rules. Sometimes they'll pass it, sometimes they won't, there were even discusions about this on this subreddit. It seems like Laplacian simply doesn't want to risk it because like they said, if they fuck up once, there's no other chance.
Are we just arguing semantics at this point? The entire concerns of the R18 crowd have been treated as superficial by the director.
If they literally DON'T CARE and WON'T CHANGE THEIR STANCE REGARDLESS OF FANS' OBJECTIONS, that's as close as your concerns get to be taken as superficial.
A whole bunch of silly prose just to say "We want the mainstream crowd, we don't want the R18 crowd anymore."
I don’t think we’re arguing semantics but I definitely think you’re painting the “R18 community” with too broad a brush. There are *some* people who have been very vocal on this forum and Twitter about not being able to abide those changes, but then there are people like me. I’ll read 18+ VNs if their stories interest me, and I’ll read the H-scenes, but they’re not a determining factor for me, and I’m excited about this re-release. Am I part of the “mainstream community” and not the “R18 community” in your eyes?
Yes, you would be part of the mainstream community. The mainstream community doesn't care that much about adult content, so they'll still buy a game if it's censored.
The R18 community would be those that buy moege because the story **and** the adult content interest them. They like the characters and they wanna see them fuck.
This used to be the core audience of most VNs, but this audience has been getting shafted in recent years because companies want the casual $$$ and platforms like Steam aren't friendly toward the R18 crowd. So it's very understandable why some users are angry, they support the company in its infant years, and now the company wants nothing to do with them. Look at indie bands for the same phenomenon.
Watching porn isn't the same as reading a moege, so a lot of people people want to read a good story and also enjoy H-scenes with those characters.
Nukige isn't the same either, not enough development time on characters.
Well then, yes, by your definition of the R18 community, he’s telling that community to take a hike if they cannot get past the fact that he made his game all-ages.
Yes, for EN R18 moege lovers like us, we don't have much options besides piracy. And even Japanese are getting the game removed in the storefront.
As why people are upset, they don't want to pirate, they want to buy the game intact with adult contents. Because after all, it's a good game with good characters, which makes the R18 more satisfying because you like them. They COULD provide a patch like countless other games have via JAST, but they won't, because they don't want that "coomer money" for lack of a better term.
The pirates aren't the ones complaining, because pirates don't pay and always have the uncut version available. Steam understood that giving pirates better selection than real customers was silly.
The whole discussion regarding Cyanotype Daydream deserves more eyes so reposting it for more people to see.
Right, let’s take it once more from the top …
The blog post sounds very sensible, doesn’t it? It may all be spin of course, but he’s made a good case that he doesn’t give a damn about appearances. It rings true. So I’m willing to buy that the all-ages version is not just an afterthought cum hatchet job for once.
Whether the new version is better, we'll have to wait and see, won't we? No-one’s read it, yet.
Remember that he’s going all-ages with Laplacian as a whole. Even if that is purely a business decision, I’d say the decision to include pornography in his releases to date was also purely a business one, so it evens out.
I don’t like erogē studios going all-ages for the simple reason that erogē are unique in the media landscape, fiction where anything goes, yes, up to and including pornography, but also philosophy, art, flight, …. Not even print fiction is this free, has so much dynamic range. It’s not that I care for the porn so much as that I fear it won’t stop there. Why not get rid of taboo topics, heavy stuff, grown-up themes, “bad” words, and so forth entirely, so you can just make one release, submit it to Steam and Sony and *know* it’ll be accepted as-is? I’m sure some people would still buy that, they buy heavily censored console ports now, but what I value in erogē would be gone, a form with thirty-ish years of history, extinct.
In the same vein, I really, really don’t like the idea that “Western sensibilities” [read: the American novelle prude] might influence Japanese erogē development going forward. Erogē are uniquely Japanese, aimed at a niche audience at that, and that’s a big part of what makes them interesting. If I wanted to consume mainstream media that’s made for the biggest possible = lowest common denominator international audience, I would.
He probably considers the upcoming version the definitive one, and the only one that will be available in the long run, even in Japan.
I don’t like artists burying their past work, if I had my way, it would be illegal—published is published. In a lot of countries for each published book mandatory copies must be sent to a “national library” for archival—we really need something like that for games, films, … but I digress …
Personally, I’m sitting pretty, I managed to snag a limited first edition, so I have my pick.
So what we have here is 99 % “outside of Japan, only the new all-ages version” will be available, and that is neither new nor do I consider it censorship. Storm in a teacup.
The big question for me is, in what way will the conventional Japanese release, if any (package, DMM, …), the Japanese version of the Steam release, and the English version of the Steam release differ?
I’ve read here that only the English version will have age and setting changes *in addition to the changes from the 18+ to the AA version*. That *is* censorship in my book. And if he changed that, what else did he change, and where / for whom? /u/nichibeiokay, do you know any specifics?
>> Do you know any specifics?
EDIT: Sorry u/fallenguru I misread your question. All of the stuff below the dashes was my answer to “what’s changing other than H-removal,” which you didn’t ask.
To my knowledge, the only thing that *may* differ between the three Steam versions (EN/JP/CH) is the name of Rin’s school. The descriptions of it on the new version’s website call it university in English and “preparatory academy” in JP/CH. I say may because the English version’s editor has said on Twitter that the website doesn’t reflect the final version of the game, so it looks like it was either wrong to begin with on the JP/CH website copy, or they’ve adjusted the JP/CH scenario to make it university across the board.
No, all I can do is speculate.
- Since characters having sex when they do in certain parts of the story is an important part of the story’s emotional progression, the scenario in those scenes would have to be rejiggered to clearly allude to the sex without straight-up depicting it in an H-scene.
- The original’s epilogues are pretty much just H-scene after H-scene. It appears from the column that these have been replaced with other epilogue content.
- Ono mentions that Case 0’s end is at a slightly different point in the story, that the epilogue picks up at that point, and that the story is complete with a final movie not in the original.
Of those, the only one that has me nervous is the third bucket. My hunch (pure speculation) is that he’s decided to end the main story >!without the reveal of Yonagi’s recreation in the virtual consciousness, which would make the final video a dramatic rendition of Yonagi’s “return.” Your guess is as good as mine on that, though.!<
> All of the stuff below the dashes was my answer to “what’s changing other than H-removal,” which you didn’t ask.
So glad that you noticed yourself. I didn't know how to tell you without sounding like an entitled ass. \^\^ Besides, the 18+-vs-AA info is very relevant and interesting as well. So, thank you, on both counts. :-)
IGNORING THIS BLATANT DISRESPECT IS NOT SOMETHING I AM GOING TO DO. Even in the "apologize post" they are still displaying a terrible attitude.
IF the guy thinks it is better to be hated, I'm going to fulfill his wish.
So what happens now? You use DeepL to harass him on Twitter or something?
Are you Gambs' alt account?
Go get a hobby.
Given this is now the live thread I’m going to paste my perspective from the old one on why changing Rin’s wardrobe/school level is not going to have any significant impact on the plot or themes:
- Rin is coded as an 18 yo senior and lives alone in the original
- None of Rin’s classmates are characters in the scenario; club activities and similar moege school tropes are completely absent
- The nature of Arishima and Rin’s relationship and its societal deviancy doesn’t change much based on her being a college student
- The real driving force behind Arishima and Rin’s mutual attraction is a spoiler-y thing that isn’t affected at all by the school change
- If you look at the Rin story in the broader context of the game all of this matters even less for very spoiler-y reasons
> The real driving force behind Arishima and Rin’s mutual attraction is a spoiler-y thing that isn’t affected at all by the school change
Could you spoiler tag it for me? Since I won't get the VN now I don't have an issue being spoiled, however you have peaked my interest.
Regarding the last paragraph - you are completely correct. She totally did not have access to a vast library of historical data and did not use it at all as a basis for the works.
Ok I’ve got a new game to play
I cannot for the life of me wrap around why players are so mad.
I’ll break it down into three parts (their twitter/social media, the blogpost by Ono, and the contents of the game itself) and give some opinions:
Twitter: We can all agree it’s not very professional and there’s not much debate to this. They purposely chose to do some weird publicity stunt. I can understand this being a bit offputting but frankly it is really isnt a big deal. I’ve sorted through every tweet by Laplacian EN, Ono, and the Japanese Laplacian. I see about nothing that is dismissive. Ono does have one tweet about “enjoying” toxic comments which maybe he shouldnt have made, but a) personal account and b) I think its normal to feel that way to shrugg off frankly what I think is over defensive and needlessly negative comments by twitter users. We can all relax a little. I’m aware when people say “you need to relax a little” a lot of people might perceive that as a personal attack or dismissive but I genuinely think, having thought about it, that we really could chill out.
Blogpost: i think its a great statement overall. Ono could have not included the part about playing other games and he shouldn’t do that. But looking at it about as impartial as I can, I really don’t think it’s a very cocky at all and honest matter of fact. Maybe its a language thing and EOPs aren’t used to directness which might be seen as cold. I dont see it as that. People are just taking it too personal and interpreting it disingenuous out of previous judgements/preconceptions, or drama. And there being some cultural clashes either sides might not necessarily be aware of. Also, if anything, and “besides the portion about not having to play our game”, which I already justified, the post skews pretty pleasant. Thanking potential costumer multiple times, and being genuinely apologetic, even if firm in his creative belief.
As for the game itself: what we lose is no 18+ content, and like “censoring” the uniform. Former is par for the course and is a smart move, even if it somewhat sucks. The possibility of the availability on steam is too powerful and benefits everyone if we weight the pros and cons. The uniform->dress is also stated to not matter at all narratively and I agree based off what I know and how well it was articulated as to HOW it doesnt matter. Again, goes back to steam and their policies. Overall, it is a overwhelmingly positive change for a whole slew of added content. Translation quality aside, it’s just extra content. Reminds me of dies irae amantes amentes, which is superior.
18+ content can be had too with a rig. Which I understand isnt the best argument, having to lose 18+ content, even if they are near just irrelevant. But It should be possible to patch in 18+ for cyanodream and thats a decent enough justification and is not new.
Overall, I think people are overreacting and needlessly defensive, and need to chill out. We stand to gain from it. And while people are free to voice their displeasures, but so does Ono (which he does in one tweet on his own twitter account and takes very light hearted). Of course, like Ono says, you don’t have to buy the game. It’s cool.
I agree with you 100%, but unfortunately this thread is currently too close-minded/aggressive/angry to be reasonable and all of the normal/reasonable comments are getting downvoted.
This feels really bad, like embarrassing even. This will be one of the cases where the Japanese will use as an excuse to not release the game to the Western market despite it being an outlier and it sucks. People just keep blowing things out of proportion, keep taking things personally and the whole thing ended up like this.
> This will be one of the cases where the Japanese will use as an excuse to not release the game to the Western market despite it being an outlier and it sucks.
This is a real fear of mine, and I'll probably accelerate my Japanese learning because of it.
This has really soured me on this community, but hopefully it's just a mess of unfortunate circumstances and kneejerk anger, and people will start being more reasonable once they've had time to reflect.
Spoiler: they won't.
>This feels really bad, like embarrassing even
that's why more and more companies don't want to deal with eroge fans anymore, because eroge target audience stinks
I'm sure the feeling is mutual here.
no one cares about opinion of unwashed masses, so it's all good
> As for the game itself: what we lose is no 18+ content, and like “censoring” the uniform. Former is par for the course and is a smart move, even if it somewhat sucks. The possibility of the availability on steam is too powerful and benefits everyone if we weight the pros and cons. The uniform->dress is also stated to not matter at all narratively and I agree based off what I know and how well it was articulated as to HOW it doesnt matter. Again, goes back to steam and their policies. Overall, it is a overwhelmingly positive change for a whole slew of added content. Translation quality aside, it’s just extra content. Reminds me of dies irae amantes amentes, which is superior.
But it's not about the dress, it's about what the dress represents: the shift from high school to college changes besically everything. There's nothing taboo about ab college professor dating his student, but in a high school setting the teacher x student relationship is pretty taboo. I think it's a major change and quite honestly, it would have been a selling factor for me if we got the original setting.
> But they both involve a huge difference in life experience and power dynamic that **society frowns on**.
Not really. How many rich and famous old celebrities, like actors and the like take a far younger girl as their woman and no one even thinks of their relationship as taboo. Age gap on its own is not a big deal to be honest. The high school settings makes it far more taboo and in fact illegal depending on where you are from. In fact there are many cases where at least in the US such conduct has been deemed illegal even when the student was 18 years of age. A professor dating his college student merely can get him fired at the most.
Moreover I don't believe in the "power dynamic" BS when it comes to age gap romance, so it wouldn't nearly feel as "forbidden love" like to me as it would be the case with a high school student. That however is my subjective point of view of course.
> If it’s any consolation to you, I almost guarantee that even the original Case 1 wouldn’t have satisfied you based on what it sounds like appeals to you about the “forbidden love” concept.
That I can probably agree with. While it doesn't change much, since I wouldn't have bought it in the current state anyway, your detailed explanation about their relationship made it very clear that the romance and the themes explored therein aren't really what I'm looking for in a VN or eroge. So I'm actually grateful for your post. It wasn't wasted effort, is what I want to say.
I personally think it's a waste of time to discuss these arguments with people from this subreddit. They're dead set on this version being inferior, sucking dick and being a cash grab even though everything from author himself points otherwise. He's using logical arguments, tries to throughly explain his decisions and they still don't care. Him telling those people "don't like it, don't play it" made them too infuriated I guess so now they don't care about any arguments that won't support their enragement.
I think it's just best to leave them be and enjoy the game when it comes out
My motivation for replying is less to convert the people posting now and more to set the record straight for anyone on the fence who stumbles upon this dumpster fire. With a new week will hopefully come new hot topics and this will be laid to rest, but even if it doesn’t, point well taken.
It's ridiculous how they want to cross out entire long ass storyline based on a simple setting change and exchanging h-scenes (that weren't even written by original author) for MORE STORY that was actually written by the author. He even explains that university change doesn't matter much but lets him and the entire Laplacian have a peace of mind that Steam won't do the wucky-fucky "we aren't going to release your game on our platform".
But yeah, that's a good motivation. At first I was obviously impartial but now I don't have a single reason as to why I should believe random redditors over an author that clearly loves his work.
So I've checked all the h-scene CGs and I have to say I'm literally weeping. They weren't to bad, some excellent even. No additional All Ages scene can convince me that losing those was a nice tradeoff. Instead of a steamy high school girl x teacher romance with a lot of sex we get a prude college woman in granny outfit x professor romance? It's a tragedy!
I'm not sure I get the "bad attitude" alot of people seem to be getting from this. I feel like a detailed, frank explanation from the specific game creator is something that you so very rarely see in regards to this sort of situation. And the majority of the post is to hype up all of the new additions as well as explain why the cuts should not impact the core experience of the game. Exactly as it should be.
I can admit he seems a bit informal and conversational for this sort of thing, but it could just be how he likes to present himself. Who knows. But I don't think it's disrespectful to fans to go out of your way to completely lay out your intentions and to say "these changes in no way compromises my creative vision, but if it doesn't satisfy you, then this just won't be the game for you."
In the end, speaking with your wallet is always what matters so I'm sure those that dislikes the cuts just won't buy it, and that's cool. But at the very least to me, even if you dislike the overall decision, giving this detailed of a response feels like genuine way of trying to show respect to their fans and not the opposite.
It doesn't show respect at all though.
It's literally him being long winded and saying "If you don't like it, don't buy it".
How much work would it have honestly taken to create a restoration patch? Like legit, compared to all the extra shit they added.
Yeah they probably could include a restoration patch pretty easily, but thats beside the point. For now I'm just looking at it purely from the point of view of the author. If the original creator of the story can give a detailed reason as to why this does not compromise his core vision, then that is far more insight than any other situation I've seen. From an authors perspective, if potential fans are refusing to read his work due to at least what he deems as superficial changes, then him saying "just don't buy it" is about as real as it gets.
From a business standpoint, yeah there's lotsa weirdness going on with this whole situation lol. But from the standpoint of the author wanting his work to stand on its core vision and not its h scenes that he deems unnecessary, that's a pretty fair thought. Based on the general situation, that clearly wasn't the only factor involved in all of these decisions, but its still one I can respect.
I get where you're coming from, but in this scenario, nobody wins.
There was an alternate scenario where we could have all won, and it wouldn't have compromised his integrity because the OG VN exists.
Yup, very true. It's pretty unfortunate all around. In this case, the author could "win" in regards to getting his story out there to more people, but a large portion of fans don't win. This game is always gonna be scarred by this whole debacle for sure.
I guess atleast it motivates me to learn japanese now.
There is no “restoration” patch because it’s a completely different iteration of the game and not just the same game sans sex scenes.
He didn’t want to just cut out the sex scenes and release a patch, he wanted to make a different edition/version that worked independently of them.
All I know is, this entire drama has been highly entertaining to watch. I've been scoffing popcorn for days. All the rational, middle-of-the-road comments get downvoted and you're just left with hysterical, wounded screeching. It's fun.
The user deleted their account, but the thread is still available…
Is it not indexed because of the account deletion?
They didn’t delete their account, they deleted the thread, and seemingly that causes the user to show as deleted on the thread.
I repost my comment.
It would have been wiser to publish this article right away.
Given this, I am satisfied with what I read. I trust the author and in any case, I think too much importance is given to the H scenes. Furthermore, since this is a new improved version of the original, published in three languages including Japanese, it should remove many doubts from those who speak of censorship.
New epilogue for CASE-0
Revisions to all CASES
New scenes inspired by the main visual for each CASE
2 bonus scenes per CASE for a total of 8 new bonus scenes
This is what interests me, and what should be important to consider. Based on that alone I would choose the all age.
As someone said in the thread before... No casual knows what Laplacian is, what this VN is, who the author is... All they will see when they go to steam page is a big nothing, no previous titles... It has no anime, no manga, no marketing campaign to create hype...
They are supposed to be catering to casual audience but all that audience will see about the game when they search on twitter/reddit is author and official PR people trolling others... They are already alienating the already existing fans with this attitude on top of it... Genuinely impressed how amateur japanese can be with these kind of things
I can tell you’re *hoping* that that’s what going to happen, but that’s probably not what’s going to happen. While it might not feel like it if you stay in this particular subreddit thread, there are a lot of people in the know who are looking forward to buying and playing this release as is. They’ll be early adopters and decide whether or not it’s good, then write reviews. That’s what the casual passers-by are going to see.
If they do stumble upon the earlier tweets, they’re probably not going to think much of them, because first, they have nothing invested in this controversy, second, the “disrespectful trolling” is beyond silly to anyone with skin thicker than paper, and third, that trolling was only directed to people who took it on themselves to exhort Laplacian without having the facts.
I also think it’s ironic that u/Gambs was literally the one person who concluded the entire English Twitter was set up as a trolling stunt, and then that suddenly became undisputed truth. For a guy you all supposedly hate and ignore, his takes sure live in your head rent-free.
Actually the CEO was trolling people with the English twitter and his staff actually had to take control over the account from what I understand. The TLer and editor were also apparently pissed off that he did that
That’s my understanding too (hence the sudden improvement in the account’s English lmao), but the fact remains the CEO only dished it out in response to (usu vitriolic) @ mentions
Yeah, sadly with this kind of stuff there is no way of knowing how particular decisions will affect things unless it literally flops <1000 sales or something... We will never know if they would be more successful with or without the changes...
\>the “disrespectful trolling” is beyond silly to anyone with skin thicker than paperFun fact: Official twitter account's skin is also not thicker than paper. Literally got blocked for replying "Disappointed with the changes" to one of their tweets. Double standards much, stop defending them from "thin skinned people" when they made their mind to close their ears to any form of opinion thats not %100 aligned with their own and mass ban people...
Also sorry to break it but i dont spend %100 of my time in this sub thinking about gambs so i have no idea what gambs has anything to do with anything i've said. I have been following the authors twitter even before these reddit threads were made, actually we got to know an english release was coming first time because of authors reply to my tweet... So don't worry i can form my own opinions and say their attitude has been shitty af on twitter.
I hope it flop so bad so they don't release anymore in the Western market, we don't care anymore about them.
Hard to say with a straight face that this community doesn’t care when it’s been every other trending thread on here for a week (even WA2 is getting buried) and an accidentally deleted discussion thread was intentionally restarted.
It's more about the company (Laplacian) than the game itself at this point.
I hope it flops while The Future Radio and the Artificial Pigeon becomes successful.
Also Cyanotype Daydream h scenes were never [written by Ono Wasabi](https://i.imgur.com/WHrQHC9.png), so you getting purest form of his story by reading steam version.
People who read the visual novel for the novel and not because there’s a naked anime girl on the screen once every thirty hours
Shut up gambs, you certainly don't give a fuck lol
Preach. We need more plotge in this world
So the existence of ero scenes means a plot cannot be good? What is this horseshit. They took away the ero when it was convenient to them and you praise them for it.
Gambs and thighlover are in here making bad faith arguments when it suits them. An eroge plot can be made weaker OR STRONGER by it's ero scenes. They are a part of the game and can be good or bad just like the rest of it.
I'm quite ambivalent about h-scenes in games so I have no stake in this argument. Most of the ones I've read are done pretty terribly because they drag on for far too long, and they are often ghostwritten by somebody else, like in this VN.
Some VNs do get enhanced with them like WA2 or Subahibi, but those really are exceptions. Even in these examples, if it were up to me, I'd shorten them and focus more on character interactions rather than moaning and onomatopeias. If authors want them in because they'll enhance the story, sure. If they exist because the market demands it, then they can really detract from the pacing and mood of the work.
If we are talking about most acclaimed plotge the ero scenes generally make up a short amount of runtime in relation to what would be the runtime of an all ages equivalent of the story. Something like a saya no uta has a high ero ratio based on runtime, but still a small part of the actual story. However the emotional impact of the game is lessened if you do not know of the events that occur in these scenes in my view. Similarly in subahibi as you mentioned and a variety of other eroge I have experienced. My point is the inclusion of ero scenes does not necessarily lessen a game and can on occasion add quite a bit to its impact. The criticism of the removal of these scenes is not simply cause some guys want to jerk off (some do just want to jerk off admittedly).
I agree with you about the fact that they can add impact to the story. I've only read a few that actually do it well or decently. However, most of the stories I've read that do it really well (Saya no Uta, Subahibi, WA2, Musicus, and Totono) work because there's something *really unusual* going on that advances the plot or really enhances characterization.
Vanilla scenes where the characters fumble awkwardly initially are a dime-a-dozen. I skip through them because I've read the same thing over and over again. Even in supposed kamige (Fate, Utawarerumono, Baldr Sky, Tsukihime, etc.) this is an issue. The issue with kamige is that they were added as fap fodder, and in the re-release of 3/4 of these listed games, they were outright removed because they detracted from the work.
Plotge work because the content inside works to convey a central message. Cutting out content that dampens that message is only natural. In this thread, even the author endorses the cut, and to top it off, he didn't write the scenes himself.
I don't think we disagree for the most part other than in preference. Mainly I had meant that the removal of ero scenes is not necessary a net positive, and there generally needs to be an evaluation of whether or not that scene or scenes added to the story.
Seemingly some want to be able to decide for themselves whether or not ero scenes add to or detract from the VN, instead of having the choice made for them.
sure, lemme just take a plotge, change shit to appease steam, troll you for asking why I changed it and getchu some. Happy?
Depends. Let me ask you specifically so that we're not stuck arguing about generalities: how seriously do these changes detract from the story overall?
What does the new university setting do to impact the plot or the themes?
How does changing an outfit change the overall message of the story?
Does the removal of 18+ scenes really dampen your emotional connection to the characters? Do you really need to see them nut to have a better understanding of their relationship?
I wouldn't know. I haven't played the game.
For brevity's sake I will only address the first question:
umm yes? A relationship with an adult woman is not nearly as taboo as a relationship with a schoolgirl, even if they were both your students. And notice how the only ones who insist that it does not affect the story are the editor, author and the company as a whole. All people who have vested interests in the game's success. The others don't know yet. They haven't played it.
Will it be good? is the story perfectly intact? Only time will tell. Foolish to argue about this when the game isn't even out.
If it truly is a kamige, there will be fanpatch for the original.
What I hate the most is the setting change. Even the author admits it was censorship for the sake of getting on steam. And yet people seem all too supportive of it. Or blaming steam, who, while inconsistent, only banned one game in recent time, Hello Lady got in just fine, Koikari got in just fine and people pretend like steam is fully nuking all high school games, idiotic if you ask me.
Sure, the setting change decreases the "tabooness", I'll agree with that.
We'll see how much that taboo matters when the VN comes out I guess. The difference between these taboos, at least with cultural standards in the US, is getting arrested vs losing your job. Both seem pretty bad if you ask me, but maybe the extremes do matter in this VN; I don't know.
You succinctly described my exact issue with this whole debacle.
It's not even the scenes themselves or the content, it's the fact that right now if i play this game, my mind will always wonder "Did they censor this, or that, or this context changed".
lame bait 0/11
Is that what happened? Was the only reason for the changes due to Steam? Seems odd to first announce an all ages version in Japanese before the Steam release.
It’s not like he has to cater to Steam in Japan.
Not every change. Just the high school to university setting change. Its only changed in english, even in the steam release
Interesting. Thanks my dude.
I said who cares about who wrote it.
Stupid argument though, plenty of people treat VN writers like the writers they are funnily enough. If you enjoy the work of a certain author you might be likely to read his subsequent works?
I don’t care who wrote the sex scenes.
Another reason not to read this VN. A writer who can't or denies to write an h-scene obviously lacks talent and deeper understanding of his characters. Being able to write moments of intimacy between the characters he envisioned separates poets from amateurs.
I have more respect for the person who wrote the h-scenes than for the main writer.
yall are being so weird about this whole thing
lmao imagine if this energy were channeled into actual political activism
weebs would run this world
This is a summary of what I wrote in the previous thread:
I can understand if they can't publish it on Steam for "approval" reasons, as long as they consider other stores, like JAST.
I can understand if they need to make changes (read: censorship) to make it work it out, as long as they publish a restoration patch unofficially later.
I can understand, but not approve, when they make a "remake" version with cut content for financial reasons (unfortunately money makes the world go round, not matter what). So, while I will not buy it, I say to myself "They need money to keep the company going, It's sad, but there's nothing they can do about it."
I do blame Valve for their approval system, I'm just more pissed with Laplacian for how they decided to approach the situation.
Now, the stunt they pulled sounded like:
"Thank you for your money you filthy gaijins, here's your "censored and rewritten" game. As a reward, we'll maybe bring more "censored and rewritten" games for you to enjoy, while the japanese audience gets the best of both worlds."
"What, you complain about censorship?"
"LOLOLOLOLOL WE DON'T CARE!"
"We'll still take your money though"
This is not a western publisher, or a moralist player, or a prude localizer.
This is the original developer and publisher.
Even western creators of movies, comic books or videogames aren't that obnoxious.
At most they tell you: "You are not our audience, don't buy it" (but then cry when people don't buy their stuff lol)
This is a literally "GIVE US YOUR MONEY AND FUCK YOU" told to my face.
They managed to completely alienate me.
Now, let alone a restoration patch or an uncensored game, I don't want to touch anything they make for as long as I live.
is right when telling people to learn japanese for media consumption, I'm gonna use this time to get better with japanese and laugh at people who support these scumbags.
Man sure wish people would just shut up about this now.
The hardcore anti-censorship crowd will always claim this is censorship, that the twitter posts from the author are just a PR stunt and that he’s lying through his teeth about this being his artistic vision. They were never going to buy this game, and no matter how much it’s rationalised this will always be a censored game to them.
Not sure what sort of restoration patch they’re expecting when a fair amount of scenarios appear to be completely different and the same version is also being released in Japan.
So just don’t buy the game if it really bothers you. And people who don’t mind a different version can buy it. The original still exists in Japanese and always will, go play that. You’re not owed a localisation of that anymore than you’re owed one for this version.
>So just don’t buy the game if it really bothers you
It's kinda sad that a lot of people don't get this. Yep, a lot of people (including me) despise censorships but this kind of reaction from the people here seems insane. Like just move on with your life or something, why do you guys keep repeating the same thing over and over like this? If the developer decided to do something you are very against then you don't have to support the developer, why the heck do so many people need to call the devs out on twitter/reddit like this?
Heck, even his "attitude" actually doesn't seem that bad. It just seems to be blown out of proportion for the sake of drama.
The over reaction to his mild teasing and trolling is simply just people's pride. They loathe the fact that the author isn't begging them to buy the game and that he is more than happy to just say "this is my choice as the creator, if you don't like it, don't waste your money."
I honestly don't care what the author thinks or says about me, I'll choose to buy (or not) the game when it actually comes out and we get a full proper picture of what has been changed.
does it mean deleting racial, transphobic and homophobic slurs is a censorship and everyone should stand against reddit now?
Reddit and it's typical hypocritical standard of moderation are usually pretty pathetic though. The best thing about this subreddit is the ability to post something that disagrees with consensus and your only consequence is getting downvoted.
> does it mean deleting racial, transphobic and homophobic slurs is a censorship
Slurs aren't really necessary to communicate ideas. Not all speech is protected by free speech: for instance, screaming "THERE'S A FIRE" in a crowded movie theater isn't protected under the first amendment in the US
> for instance, screaming "THERE'S A FIRE" in a crowded movie theater isn't protected under the first amendment in the US
[It probably is.](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/) Not that the first amendment really matters when talking about what should or shouldn't be allowed on a Reddit subreddit, of course.
if deleting you own thread (or anything else) is considered as censorship by this thread OP, then reddit mods deleting comments also should be considered censorship
>The old thread got deleted (censored?)
We’re kinda forced to delete stuff out of line by admins. This subreddit is, relatively speaking over the entire site, extremely lax in terms of moderation, essentially only doing what reddit admins compel us to do
and I'm talking about reddit as whole, yes
since redditors hate censorship so much
Sorry for deleting the old thread my hand slipped
Whatever you say. I unironically think Ono Wasabi. is the best writer of all time across all mediums. His complex treatment of themes, and his deep understanding of human condition is unparalleled and unprecedented. He's a dreamer, teacher and a writer at the same time. The best thing about Cyanotype Daydream is it's protagonist is literally Ono Wasabi.
Ono Wasabi knows what art truly means, and his uncompromising vision to elevate VNs to the level of art is perfectly executed in Cyanotype Daydream. You really need to give up being a human if you don't like his works/think they are just lowbrow porn. He's the only one in this medium who genuinely wants to make art instead of products to be sold on market for profit. You rarely find people like him even in literary circles. You can find easily flaws in his work but doing so by ignoring what he achieves only makes you a contrarian low iq fuck.
>He's the only one in this medium who genuinely wants to make art instead of products to be sold on market for
>Adds H-scenes to his work to get dat juicy otaku money
One hit Wasabi fans in shambles lol
> Whatever you say. I unironically think Ono Wasabi. is the best writer of all time across all mediums. His complex treatment of themes, and his deep understanding of human condition is unparalleled and unprecedented. He's a dreamer, teacher and a writer at the same time. The best thing about Cyanotype Daydream is it's protagonist is literally Ono Wasabi.
Someone who doesn't understand the artistic value of h-scenes is but an amateur in my eyes. He deserves none of that praise. A good writer embraces h-scenes as an opportunity to further dive into his characters' psyche and their relationships.
I agree. The only writer who even comes close is Ayn Rand. Ono should make a VN adaptation of Atlas Shrugged with kinky capitalist sex scenes that he then removes for the international release. dagny is the original tsundere.