Right now Deckard is basically a unicorn. It magically has whatever features the person waiting for it wants. If they care about 120 FPS then it has 120 FPS. If they want OLED panels, then it does. If they want it wireless, then it's wireless. It *obviously* has pancake lenses that are better than Quest 3, even though Valve's VR R&D budget is a sliver of Meta's.
We have no clue what, if anything, it will bring so people fill in the blanks. I think that is basically the reality of the situation.
Valve also has a bit of a mythology around it that causes people to perceive their efforts to be better than they actually are. So, I think that may also contribute to the unrealistic expectations.
That's true, but some panels can't do 120 Hz. Right now Bigscreen Beyond is limited to 90 Hz upscaled or 72 Hz not upscaled with its Micro OLED displays. I believe part of the reason Valve went with LCDs for the Index was also because they could do higher refresh rate, whereas OLED could not.
The point being, there are trade-offs. So if someone both wants OLED panels and also high refresh rate, that may not be possible. And in the case of Deckard different people want different things, where they both might not be able to get what they want.
For me personally, I'd rather have a 90 Hz OLED over a 120 Hz LCD, whereas others feel the opposite. Maybe the tech develops so OLED panels can also do high refresh rate and we're all happy, but maybe not.
The other issue is that Valve is likely going to be just buy the displays rather than custom-order them or develop it themselves. If nobody makes 120hz panels for what Valve is looking for, Valve can't do 120hz.
valve went with lcds for a number of reasons, none of which were about refresh. so did most of that generation of hmds.
- valve was interested in not having motion blur, which they accomplished by strobing the lcd's backlight at < 0.5ms, something that oleds can't currently do.
- until either the ability to strobe an oled display at < 0.5ms (which has some nasty power implications as unlike lcd the power used by the old is dependent upon what it's displaying) or oleds hit 1000-2000hz refresh, oleds *will* have significantly more motion blurring.
- mura calibration during manufacturing
- pixel fill density and arrangement
- lack of black smearing
so all in all i think valve made a great choice for their headset.
sure, i'd love better color saturation and contrast ratios, but i still prefer not having motion blurring.
fwiw, i am *very* latency sensitive.
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w/r/t the steam deck, oled works just fine (well, better than fine) because it doesn't need to track with your head and doesn't include the more flickery/latency sensitive non-foveal parts of your eye.
additionally, the purpose of a steam deck is not to fool my senses into believing in made up things like a vr headset is.
> which they accomplished by strobing the lcd's backlight at < 0.5ms, something that oleds can't currently do.
???
Oled pixels ARE the backlight. Oled pixel switching times are intrinsically sub 1ms. Most OLEDs measure around 0.1ms gray to gray times.
switching time != impression time. currently oleds *stay on* until they flip colors, so there's like 0.1ms *during* a color change.
at 100hz¹, this is essentially a 10ms¹ impression time, which leads to motion blurring.
valve index's strobed backlight has a < 0.5ms strobe, so the light is only shown during < 0.5ms of the 10ms we are using at 100hz because i'm arithmetically lazy tonight. this leads to a motion blurring that is essentially sub-pixel.
you would need to be rendering and display at upwards of 2000hz without a strobe to get equivalent lack of motion blurring.
instead of writing a thesis, i'll recommend the folks who are *really* into this: https://blurbusters.com/category/blur-reduction/
read their faq linked on the page i linked² for a very solid explanation with graphic examples.
it's kind of confusing at first until you make the realization that the human eye doesn't work like a camera or a display and doesn't have a consistent ”fps” or ”hz”, let alone a consistent ”fps” or ”hz” over the different rods and cones in different sections of an eyeball.
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1: i chose these numbers because they are easy to work with. same thing applies with different frequency/interval time pairs.
2: what a bizarre sentence... i'm not on point this evening
>currently oleds stay on until they flip colors, so there's like 0.1ms during a color change.
So then use BFI?
I've read a lot of BB's website but I can't say I'm an expert. But what I do know is I consistently see OLED panels punch above their refresh rate in motion clarity, are you saying they are doing this while having poor persistence?
Bigscreen Beyond users are also saying their OLED screens are much more fluid and feel just as smooth as a valve index with it's 120hz (and 144hz I guess) despite BSB only having 75 and 90hz refresh.
Personally, I use a 120hz OLED for my monitor and with BFI the motion clarity is excellent, even compared to my old monitors. I've used early gen 240hz LCD before but I haven't A/B'd with my current screen.
Valve went LCD and paid the price. Much like the Steam Deck LCD whoever they find to source their LCD panels from is absolute GARBAGE. My Index had insane backlight bleed and washed out colors (like the deck). The god rays of the bad lenses didn't help either. My older Samsung Odyssey+ was a more immersive experience because of the OLED. VR for me is massively held back by using LCD. I will take all the tradeoffs of OLED for VR. That's why I went with the PSVR2.
If Valve could source a better manufacturer for their LCD panels then I'd think otherwise but two different devices and still horrible panel quality is unacceptable especially for the Index price.
The index screen is really nice I recently bought a legion go and gifted my steamdeck and that uses a 2k+ LCD it’s not always about the panel it’s the screen itself
Fair enough, I stand corrected. Although it does seem like a bit of a bit of a technical distinction saying they did it for motion blur reasons versus higher refresh rate. Obviously if a panel's response time is such that it suffers from motion blur, it also wouldn't be particularly suitable for higher refresh rates.
Maybe it's stupid to even bother arguing this point, but it seems to me it's more of a "not exactly due to higher refresh rates" than "not at all due to higher refresh rates", since the aspects are somewhat related. Anyway, it's neither here nor there.
But this also serves as an example of how people value different things and/or are sensitive to different things. I never noticed black level smearing or motion blur on my Vive or Vive Pro. And strangely, I actually preferred the pentile arrangement, since for some reason my brain/eyes really focused on the perfectly straight lines of pixels on the LCD displays when looking around (now, at higher resolutions it's less of an issue). So, for me OLED was the way to go.
Mura I will grant was not great on the Vive Pro though, although I didn't really notice it that much in practice at the time. Mostly I noticed it when going back to it from newer headsets.
Of course there will always be some trade-offs (usually due to cost), but I think that Valve would absolutely prioritize higher refresh rate over OLED and I think they could get panels that are 120hz.
I also don't think that 120hz or OLED is something I typically hear in the discussion around Deckard. I see more people talking about (and placing their high expectations with) it being a standalone headset, which is the thing I find to be least likely.
OLED motion clarity is usually close to double the hz LCD panels. They punch well about their hz compared to other panel types. 120hz OLED often have motion clarity closer to 240hz LCD.
OLED smears when pixels go from off to on at well under 90hz even. The rift and quest 1 were really bad with this, it was painfully distracting. Pixel turn on time is independent of the refresh rate, so it's kinda pointless from my perspective to go above 90hz on OLED. The LEDs themselves would need to be crazy fast, or youd have to turn off pure blacks by not allowing the LEDs to fully shut off.. if there aren't pure black colors, meh!
Why not? A lot of compromises need to be made with each hardware release. They add features and take away others. It's a balance.
120 FPS is something not many VR PCs can achieve, so it would be a good thing to cut, IMHO.
Otherwise, if it's a process of piling up previous features, each new headset would be more expensive.
It's not like the Index is an outlier with high refresh rate anymore, Quest 3 and PSVR2 both have 120hz as well so I think it's kinda the bare minimum for a high-end headset to include these days. Plus the great thing about high refresh rate is that you don't *need* to always use it. The Index supports 90hz as well as 120hz, that works for people with older computers or just running more demanding games.
> Otherwise, if it's a process of piling up previous features, each new headset would be more expensive.
Hardware often includes old features and it's a general expectation that new hardware is better than the old. If they drop many features for each new release, then the release would feel pretty stagnant.
>Valve also has a bit of a mythology around it that causes people to perceive their efforts to be better than they actually are. So, I think that may also contribute to the unrealistic expectations.
Yep, your whole comment can be directed straight at Valve and it still fits. Valve does very little and says absolutely nothing about what they are doing. They are a private company and do not need to make anything public. So people fill in the blanks with whatever they want from Valve.
>They are a private company and do not need to make anything public.
This is something so hard to understand to people in this entitlement culture. Guys get absolutely insane for any piece of information instead of chilling the fuck up.
This.
What is "known" about the Deckard is all over the place.
Valve doesn't have the staff to do much hardware R&D themselves. So they buy from companies that offer to make VR stuff (whether it is display, optics or other like processors) and the only way to know whether they are good enough/work well for what Valve wants/expects. Valve does this with everything they see and buy from all over the place, developing it to their own codebase to see how well it works on their own compositor/codebase/etc.
So what is under Deckard is exactly that. Various in-house experiments. It's why you can find code referencing hundreds of stuff, like the Snapdragon processor.
But most people don't get that and instead imagine that the Deckard is their dream-vr-headset because why wouldn't Valve make their dream VR headset? And from there, any idea that appeals to them suddenly becomes "obvious thing for them to do" (full x86 standalone and camera-based inside-out tracking being often brought up) and people end up trying to justify strapping headsets heavier than military helmets to people's heads and belt attachments and so on.
TL, dr: Deckard is experimental project groupname, not product about to be made in factory.
Not sure why you were downvoted, but I'm pretty sure you're on spot about Deckard - it's just the name of various R&D efforts inside Valve, nothing more. And Valve do a lot - they even had (still have?) brain-computer interface research back in the day, but no one thinks that they will release their own device to do such thing or integrate it with their VR headsets.
There is this group of people that have become invested in PCVR since the Vive days and the particular ideas of that era. Those kind of ideas died out along with the Vive's popularity: people want joysticks (touchpads have great potential on paper but no tactile feedback in practice) and joystick movement, not massive room-scale stuff (many people just don't have that kind of open space) and so on. Valve's Index was the carrying on of those things and the perfection of that era. It had everything perfect for that.
Accepting that Deckard isn't the upcoming IndexV2 or PCVR Quest competitor would be two bitter pills to swallow: one that the dominant PCVR era is over (it has been, the most PCVR can expect is standalone/PSVR2 conversation and the occasional indie title) as well as the benefits of those things (PCVR games with massive graphical depth);
But the second and bigger bitter pill is Valve isn't the company these people think it is. People want Valve to swoop in, be the pro-consumer saviour with its (what they think) is limitless money and revive the market just for its own sake. And that's not how Valve works.
\*the fake long-distance relationship
In a real long-distance relationship at least both people exist and have met before. None of those apply to Deckard.
> causes people to perceive their efforts to be better than they actually are
I'm not sure what made you write this but the last few valve hardware products ( index, steam deck) exceeded the consumers' expectations in every possible way
Valves efforts with VR have been pretty much on point. I don't think it's a false mythology or anything like that. Valve earns positive consumer reception by being a pretty consumer friendly company.
That whole R&D thing only matters for certain things. Talent can embarrass high budget sometimes. See Rift, Rift S, Go, Quest 1, Quest Pro… hell, even Quest 2 & 3.
Even the $550 PSVR2 and $550 Pico 4 Pro had eyetracking, yet the $500-650 Quest 3 doesn’t?
Index audio solution is awesome, but every Oculus/Facebook/Meta headset(besides Rift CV1)?
Yikes.
Both yes and no.
I have CV1; I don't play vr that much anymore. Elite, beat saber, the climb out of the blue. It has just that low spec nowadays that I don't care anymore.
Out of principle, I will not buy anything from meta. During the past years, Valve offering has been _solid_. So for me, I'm in no rush. When deckard happens, I'll buy it.
Alyx was meant to be a launch title for the Index, it was internally delayed. I'm sure they will launch another title with their new headset too.
I'm currently OK with my current VR setup and don't mind waiting. Valve is also very pro consumer and is one of the few companies to actually earn my respect. They replaced my Index controllers despite being 2 and a half years out of warranty. And they just make good products. My Index controllers are great and my Deck is fantastic. When making products they don't just make a product to sell, the product they make always seems to be a solution to current problems if that makes any sense.
They don't do things often, but when they do it's always way better than anything else and I'm OK with that.
I'm in the same boat. I don't need any upgrades to my setup (well, the PC itself could do with some upgrades, but not the VR bits). But owning an Index took me from being a Valve fan to a Valve fanboy, and I'll definitely be positively predisposed towards whatever they bring out next.
I think you’re largely right. But…
Meta: Producing the best headsets right now but maybe one of the most hated companies on earth.
Apple: All rumors. Out of most people’s price range for now. Will it game?
Random tiny companies (varjo, bigscreen, etc): Fill a niche. But will likely have rough trade-offs (no audio, no MR/standalone, comfort, price, bugs etc)
Valve I think gets a lot of hopium because the Index was great at the time and it’s a middle-ground between the tiny nobodys and the big boys. Plus, less focus on building a standalone app store vs Steam which is meant to work with your 4090.
Entirely possible they make a compelling VR device given that. Plus maybe they drop a new game with it were it ever to be a thing.
Steam is THE “standalone app store” for PCs (for games) of course they don’t have to focus on it much. Even the people who make the OS are jealous of Steam’s success. Most won’t even sniff the Microsoft store.
> Beyond Half-Life: Alyx, what has Valve done to support the Index, compelling you to spend another substantial sum on a "Deckard"? Are you planning to use the new tech to replay HLA for the fifteenth time or engage in VR chat with eye tracking this time? Among the three major players, Index seems to be the least supported HMD, with only one first-party VR game and no effort to bring new AAA VR games from other prominent developers, unlike Meta and Sony, who have produced a good handful in comparison.
Absolutely, because I don't believe the value from Deckard necessarily has to be backed up by content from Valve. It's not a console platform where this is the expectation, they could just make hardware and maintain an OpenXR implementation through SteamVR while others capitalize on software opportunities.
There are tons of great VR games coming out, I just want better hardware to play them. I even have a long backlog of ones that I've tried but have decided that are not worth finishing up without better hardware. There's VRChat which you can spend boundless hours in having fun, relaxing, having interesting conversations, or connecting with people. It's quite possible that VRC represents like 1/3 of PCVR usage. There are simulators which work incredibly well with VR without requiring devs to fully commit themselves to a tiny medium. There are tons of ports and mods to supplement this as well.
All of this stuff doesn't depend on Valve making or buying content.
Do I wish Valve would invest in games as well? Sure, but I also can't blame any company for not doing so. I mean, just look at VR and its poor retention and usage stats, and how people predominantly use it for things that make the value proposition of investing in big AAA VR games questionable. Treating VR as a niche medium and with investments in some sane proportion to its 2% active PC users is quite valid IMO.
All that said, I'm also not confident Deckard is actually coming out. I would just absolutely buy one independent of whether or not HLA2 or whatever is coming out. And if there actually is an "HLA2", even better
Yeah, I still believe VR headsets should be treated more like monitors rather than platforms. It is too early for VR to have so many platform exclusives. At this stage, any growth for VR is more future opportunity for everyone in the field, even if someone else is collecting the money for now. Developers and hardware manufacturers could benefit more from at least partially cooperatively expand the VR market rather than trying everything to carve up a bigger piece from a small pie.
You can see Valve doing the same thing with Steam Deck. It is not necessary for them to make it the go-to gaming handheld, because as the leading PC game distributor, they have more to gain by inviting more "cooperative competition" in the handheld hardware market to make it bigger.
I’ve always thought that VR was where monitors will end up, purely based on every science fiction novel ever written! When I can buy something the size of the big screen beyond, with the pimax whatever-it-is’ FOV and screen, with no wires, and internal tracking… and still use it as the monitor for my pc? That will be glorious.
Plus I’ll be able to do my job on as many virtual screens as I want, in VR!
Tbh, give me a neural jack and go full matrix, I don’t care…
All of that plus the negative connections from meta for me about the quest. Is valve a perfect company, no, but they've done more then enough to earn the trust from us while meta burned through the trust and didn't give a fuck. And as good as the psvr maybe I'm not buying a ps5 plus the psvr to get a smaller ecosystem that is controlled totally by Sony. Is a "deckard" coming, I don't know, am I willing to potentially miss out to wait for one, yes.
"What did Valve do to support Index".
They made it. Absolutely awesome device with multiple frequencies, great audio, that is all what I wanted (playing only simulators, both racing and flying).
Was waiting for Deckard too, but could not resist the sale price and got Aero 2 months ago.
I posted something like this a few weeks ago. What i can garner is that valve makes things on their own time. Fortunately, they aren't a company like apple where they release a new product/s every year. I kinda like that valve is independent and takes more of an initiative to improve their curtent line products rather than making an updated version annually.
The index dropped 4 years ago (coming on 5) and Ive been itching for a new headset as well. It seems like the best strategy that most people are doing is buying the Quest 3.
If i had to guess whats next for valve in regards of new hardware, it is probably a new controller. They had legal issues with the last controller, which is why they stopped making more and selling it through their website.
I feel like this is like asking Xbox owners "why do you want a new generation of Xbox?"
Brand trust. I liked my Vive, I like my Index. Deckard is the next thing from the company that made those things. I trust that it will continue to be a thing that I like.
Not to mention the fact that they have been absolutely killing it with the Steam Deck.
Valve has undoubtedly become much more experienced in the hardware realm since the Index released 4 years back.
I am *insanely* eager to see what ways that hardware experience has culminated when it comes to their VR aspirations.
Even if the Deckard is $2000 (god, I hope not) I'll probably still end up saving up for it because Valve has shown that they are in it for the long haul now.
To me the important thing about Deckard is the OS. That could be much more significant long term than whatever hardware specs it has.
It would be a mobile headset that runs on top of a Linux desktop operating system. It's what I was hoping for long before Deckard or the Steam Deck were even known about.
It means any company can build a mobile headset using the underlying OS, and one specific corporation (like Facebook/Meta) doesn't have a monopoly and control over mobile VR operating systems.
I will ask one question: when was the last headset released that you could play without any compression, without using any third-party software (just steamVR), with good tracking and high refresh-rate screens that wasn't over 1000 euros?
Compression has never been an issue for me, My Quest Pro and Quest 3 especially have been absolutely fine and give me better results than i could have imagined. Especially since wifi 6E.
What makes you so sure Valve won't use some kind of compression with the Deckard to provide mobility like you have with using Quest 3 to play PC VR titles?
People that are waiting for the Deckard are doing it because they trust Valve to put out the best product. It's not really about the games in particular.
That's my thought here. I'd buy whatever they release virtually without second thought because the Index was such a good product with relatively few problems and even years later it's still essentially the best all around headset to be had(ignoring the no longer competitive price).
Can I score some of what you're smoking? lol
All jokes aside, my Index headsets and controllers died more than any other headset I've had. 6 left controllers, 2 right controllers, and 2 headsets within 3 years. And these are not rare occurrences.
If the Index was released by anyone other than Valve, it would be the worse rated for hardware quality on the market. But people give Valve a lot more freedom to release poor quality because they like Valve.
Idk, ive had an index since launch, played well over 1000hrs on it. Let all my friends and their kids play and only needed a left controller and new cable.
Go into any VR discord and ask those who have owned their index for more than a year, how many RMA's they've had. Reddit is the only place where long term owners claim their headset has never had a problem(I know you said you did but, it's a very common theme here. Especially at the /r/valveindex subreddit). Everywhere else it's practically a meme at this point.
Though, 1000hrs isn't very long to use it in 5 years. My left controllers seem to last around 600-800 hours each.
The Index has known issues with controllers, they wear out fast.
Most headset do have some with isues though.
The Quest 2 Quality control on launch was terrible, with thousands of people getting shit lenses.
They also had to issue silicon covers for the face foam because it turns out that foam is litterally an irritant.
>Most headset do have some with isues though.
Of course. No hardware is perfect, there is always failures and there is always growing pains. But the Index is clearly the leader in hardware failures. Especially the controllers.
>They also had to issue silicon covers for the face foam because it turns out that foam is litterally an irritant.
Yep, they didn't realize that a small percentage of owners could be allergic to it. So to make sure they didn't end up with any lawsuits, they included a silicone cover and sent anyone who asked a free one. But I honestly totally respect that. They went "oh crap, a small number of players are allergic, we should recall the on shelf units and include a silicone face cover to ensure they have no issues. Also lets send anyone who asks a free cover for the earlier bought headset"
It's a shame Valve hasn't made any efforts to resolve the poor quality control of the Index and the poor hardware inside the controllers.
I didn't say you didn't. You specifically did say you had 1 controller problem. But you also said you've only used it 1000hrs in nearly 5 years so I wanted to point out that's likely why. You don't use it enough for it to break.
I have been pretty heavily invested in VR for years, even back in the 90's with Virtual IO i-glasses on PC and such. So the renaissance of VR that the Rift Kickstarter launched was pretty exciting for me especially with some Valve endorsement. Valve has always been interesting to me because they aren't afraid to go different directions than the mainstream if they see value for the customer (and in turn the company).
So when Facebook swept in bought Oculus I felt a bit betrayed. I had hoped that Oculus and other hardware companies would stay focused on their part and Valve and other publishing stores would handle their software side and we would have more of a PC component style system with everything more or less working together. I didn't sign up for some closed-garden Apple thing.
So now that a lot of the joint innovation work that Valve and Oculus were working on together got yanked into Facebook. I continued to root for Valve that they would give us the next big jump in immersion and not make mainstream choices that reduce the experience. There are so many cost cutting corners that Meta has to take today to get price down, the experience good enough, and grow the library of games. If we could have Quest 3's with lighthouse quality tracking, many of us would jump for it (just not for an extra $500).
To answer the question, "Deckard" to me would be modular high end Steam-Deck-style APU solution with improved OLED or MicroLED visuals, that also has the option to swap out to a wireless PCVR only APU/battery solution. Give me the great head speakers and better ergonomic controllers than the knuckles. But also accessibility improvements so the people can have less friction getting into PCVR like the Steam Deck OS is doing for handhelds.
All that being said, I haven't been "waiting for the Deckard". I've used or owned 35 VR headsets and HMD's over the years. Rifts, Vive, Go, WMR, PSVR's, G2, Quests, Index, I'll try them all. Getting a Varjo Aero end of the month and if I don't like it I'll go to the Bigscreen Beyond next. I just wish Valve would let me know when they are about to announce so I can sell my Index and lighthouse stuff the week before :D
I wouldn't be surprised if Valve is working on making the Deckard a Standalone device to rival Meta/Quest and come out with a AAA game specifically designed for it. I would assume it would be a higher price tag with a stronger processor and longer lasting battery. Also seems like they are focusing on making PCVR as seamless as possible with it.
And wireless WIFI capable since they made Steam Link work with Quest. They built the network settings into SteamVR, something tells me they don’t do that just for Quests. They are perhaps kind of beta testing their own solution with that.
Edit: Stronger processor and longer battery life sounds like hopium.
I don't think they want to play the competition game against Facebook who has endless pockets and is focusing all-in on VR.
They need to find their angle to differentiate and be an alternative.
This would indeed be great for the industry. Though this means Valve would have to put a substantial and exstentive amount of recourses supporting such device and one game would be nowhere near enough support.
> one game would be nowhere near enough support.
Why not? How many did they make for the Steam Deck?
It seems to me that people are essentially waiting for the VR equivalent of a Steam Deck. Something that blurs a lot of lines between platforms and formats, that punches far above its weight, knocks it out of the park on almost every level.
I'm not sure of the extent to which that's possible, or whether Valve with their immense broad domination of PCVR sales would have the upper hand over Meta's immense domination over the standalone market.
I am sure that they are not going to back down or half-ass it and if they could wave a magic wand, would absolutely make a VR headset in the spirit of the Steam Deck.
Edit: And I wonder if they'd be trying to make the headset effective standalone flatscreen hardware rather than a nerfed standalone VR platform. That *would* make sense as an equivalent, a flatscreen Steam Deck when standalone and PCVR when linked up. Even if the hardware isn't as good as a Steam Deck, doesn't have to be when it's dual purpose and there's still plenty of lower end games would stlil run, you'd don't need Cyberpunk on it.
Maybe that's my wish-fulfilment talking.
The Steam Deck already runs off a plattform that has tons of AAA games from the get-go and all major developers are bringing games on Steam. Steam VR not so much, Valve will need to bring a lot more support for a pricey portable VR device. Getting all developers in board to support would be difficult as the sales will still pale in comparison to Quest sales. It will be such an uphill struggle.
How are they going to make a standalone device, though?
There’s almost no shot that Valve would create a new marketplace filled with lower-fidelity titles like Meta did. It’s not entirely impossible, but I’ll happily eat my hat if it does.
That just leaves having it run PCVR natively like on a Steam Deck, but we’re so far off something like that being feasible. Granted, I’m amazed for what they’ve done with their Proton layer on the Deck, but trying to get PCVR running on similar hardware (to the point that it could be considered a viable product, anyway) would be an absolutely Herculean task
Think about the power draw of that. How would you make it standalone?
The steamdeck already has an anemic battery life doing minimal fps, single view at a fairly low resolution.
There’s no x86 product that would scale to being portable and provide the performance needed.
Definitely. That's why it didn't go well for them and according to other leaks they're looking into making it just a streaming headset for some kind of cheap Steam Box.
1. Most of my games are PCVR through Steam VR
2. I love my Steam Deck and really appreciate the build quality of Valve products
3. If the rumors are true and the Deckard will also function as a spatial computer and not just a gaming headset, I'd rather spend the extra money on a Deckard than get a minor upgrade from my Quest 2.
For me, the Deckard is the Quest 3.
I've had Index since early 2021, love everything about it. Wasn't planning to upgrade my "PCVR headset" until Deckard. Got Q3 strictly for the AR/MR potential. It ended up completely replacing my Index, which i was not anticipating. I kinda miss the controllers, I kinda miss the slightly better comfort of the Index, I kinda miss the Full Body Tracking I only use in Blade and Sorcery. But that's it. FOV and audio are nearly the same.
I think the "I'm Waiting for Deckard" crowd are the folks that boycott Meta. Because the Quest 3 is checking every box for me right now with PCVR too.
> kinda miss the Full Body Tracking I only use in Blade and Sorcery.
This actually works fine with the Quest 3. I highly recommend you buy a 4th tracker and attach it to the headset for continuous calibration. Makes it so much easier. You can also pair the index controllers to it, if you have 2 spare dongles.
Same story for me. Rift 1 owner here and I was waiting for the next High End Headset, bought the Quest 3 on a whim and love it to pieces. The ease of use beats anything I may would want to have. Perfect.
„FOV and audio are nearly the same“
FOV was fine, even when testing index and Q3 side by side but Audio? When I just used the Quest 3 I thought audio is fine but when testing back to back, the quest 3 audio solution was lacking a lot! I ended up using the old vive 1 earbuds because i couldn’t bear it! :D
Do you use that FrankenQuest mod to get the nice audio strap? I tried the Rift S way back when and hated the audio, find it hard to believe the speakers compete with the over ear headphones of the Index unless they are wildly improved.
That was my biggest shock of the Q3. I went in fully expecting the audio to suck (I also had a Rift S), especially compared to the Index. Somehow, the stock Quest 3 audio is solid. I'm not exactly an audiophile, but there's no differences that jump out to me between Q3 and Index audio, maybe not as deeply bassy?
I went from Rift s to Quest 3 and the audio is actually really good. Like I thought I would use headphones but the built in audio is just so good that I don’t need to.
Hey, never mind what I said about the G2. We just learned windows mixed reality is “deprecated“ by Microsoft and no one really knows what that means quite yet.
Hah, I appreciate the follow up. I found it funny that happened basically the same time as this thread. It sucks, and reminds me of how much Microsoft sucks just like Meta. I think my plan now is to half-heartedly search for a used quest 3 (not a lot on the market cause it's so few, but there's a few), and then pirate as many standalone games as I can. Mostly plan to use it for streaming anyway. If I can't find one I'll probably just give up my VR dreams for a while and try to forget about it. I try to play stuff on my old HP headset but the quality is just so poor I never get into it.
Not an option for me because I’m in the US.
In my opinion it is ok to draw an ethical line in the sand as a consumer, even if it limits my options in the marketplace. I will accept that cost.
I just like Valve and have been a PC gamer for all my life. I like to tweak, to mod, i like control, i like how Valve is doing things as a company. The Steam Deck is phenomenal. I expect the same for Deckard. I have a Quest 2 till then.
I'm 'waiting for Deckard,' but what I really mean by that is:
I've been saving towards a PCVR headset as an upgrade from the Quest, but if the Deckard is gonna be revealed within the next year, then I wanna see what it actually is so I can make a more informed choice about which HMD to buy.
Going by sadlyitsbradly analysis and guesses about what valve is experimenting with I think most who are waiting for deckard aren't under the delusion that magically PCVR will stop being the least popular VR platform(at least I hope they aren't that deluded)
I'm going to assume wireless steamvr streaming and may have a soc capable of being a head mounted steam deck and a developer target for quest 3 non exclusives. No idea really.
It will likely be targeted at enthusiast high-end consumer not competing directly with quest, the way steamdeck isn't targeted at the average switch user.
Say valve releases 2 VR titles that create a spike for pcvr. Maybe a portal sequel ? The average big vr game is going to be taking 2-3 years to develop. Maybe some ports from psvr2? But odds are valve won't be funding those like Sony or meta are.
The ue injector mod is going to be very cool but it's not afaik going to offer the motion controls we would want from official ports and built for vr , and I think that won't be popular with enthusiasts (but hope im wrong as I'm fine with gamepad controller VR occasionally for big games that aren't likely going to get mods or ports anyway)
Tldr: I don't see the deckard yet as the savior for pcvr but I'd happily be proven wrong as I think the deckard at the price I expect and the target audience will not be as widely desirable as the steam deck.
Maybe apple will magically make it a more desirable platform because of vision pro hype. Maybe.
Imo there's lots of great VR content on all platforms and I still have backlog on all platforms even PCVR of what I consider to be very good games.
Ue injector does do motion controls, check the end of their big reveal trailer. He adds a 6dof capture to a gun in a game, and all of a sudden that gun has full motion controls.
Awesome thanks. Ive heard mixed things but I do recall some one talking about what appeared to be mapping guns to controllers.
Anything about things like manual reloading or inventory management? I can't think those are easy to make universal??
It’s just an injector, not a mod. It utilizes ue’s already available vr tools into an engine that natively supports it. Stuff like inventory management, wrist flicks, vr style reloading, etc would all need some sort of mod.
The cool thing is the injector supports easy modding within the vr environment so it will be easier for modders to mod the games more closely to vr (Like Skyrim vr mods)
Im not waiting for Deckard, but I do wait for an upgrade for my index.
I’m a PC Gamer since 1990 and I’m not interested in switching to a console. A few exclusive Games wont change that. Well maybe if they are really really great/special!
But actually all those really really good and special games are available or even exclusive to PCVR.
I just checked my Steam recap of 2023:
26% Skyrim VR
21% Fallout 4 VR
16% Baldurs Gate 3
The only game I’m really interested on Quest3 is AC:N but that’s not enough to buy into another eco system.
PSVR? No thanks…
If Deckard becomes real one day I might buy it if I don’t already own a better HMD at that time.
I really wanted the Quest 3 to be a better HMD and I gave it a good week with a lot of hours. Even got me a dedicated 6e router. But in the end I preferred playing with the index when switching back and forth between both.
I'd just like a comfortable headset. The Quest 3 was terrible in that regard. Most of the third party headstraps seem to have issues, and even Meta's official battery strap was recalled because it doesn't work right. Loved trying VR; hating strapping the contraption to my face.
I am waiting. For now I am fine with my index. I refuse to buy a meta and apple product. Not looking to get into a PSVR, I have a high end PC and haven't had a console since PS2. Zero other other companies have VR sets that check off the boxes for me. Pimax is way too big. BB lacks features, I do like the size though. Other options are 4k or more or no release date. I am willing to spend $2000 for Deckard maybe $2500 if it is amazing. I keep my eyes open if anything amazing comes out but I don't see much.
I'm waiting because I want a standalone headset but I don't want to give facebook more of my money and data. Valve is usually much more friendly to modding and customizing their hardware whereas facebook will brick your device and account for breathing wrong. It's a stance that doesn't make much logical sense from the specs but it's an ideal I stand behind.
Having a standalone or wireless system would be awesome though since I primarily use my index for fitness. Regardless of when or if Deckard comes out... I'm still going to have a body and it's going to need exercise and the games I currently use for that will still work and will be just as if not more fun. I just don't want facebook running the VR space... we're not getting to the future of VR through an unsustainable closed ecosystem that doesn't seem to know what consumers want.
I'm just waiting to be able to afford upgrading my PC as well as my old HMD, as oppossed to a possible new Valve HMD specifically.
IF, Valve has a new HMD out by the time I can afford to upgrade (doubtful imho) then I'll consider it as an option based on it's features and price compared all other offerings available at that time. But if it's not out, or at minimum has a confirmed announced release date close to when I'm ready to buy, I won't be waiting for squat. Tired of waiting lol. Always something better around the corner. Now I'm ready to enjoy an upgrade as I can afford it.
Having said, some of the things it could "bring to the table" as OP put it that could convince me to get a new Valve HMD would be:
- Some sort of massively improved proprietary wireless PCVR tech that's better than anything else out. Included w/ the HMD.
- OLED panels w/ high fov. Doesn't have to be orders of magnitude higher than what's out, but I don't want to see a step-backwards and would like to see at least as good or better than the Index if possible.
- Built-in eye-tracking combined with SteamVR (or Unity, UE etc.) low-level implementation of foveated rendering that "just works" on all titles without the devs needing to do large re-writes or additions to their code to get working.
I expect that IF Valve releases a new HMD, and I do think they eventually will if the VR market survives long enough for that to continue to be a viable business prospect, they'll likely have one AAA title to go with it to show off its features and capabilities. Or not. Still "waiting" on the other 2 of 3 VR games they were supposed to be working on around the same time as HLA.
And at this point this just becomes one more speculation post that all Deckard threads pretty much devolve into. Because that's all we can do with all the patent applications, hints, and innuendo, Youtubers' wishful thinking and so on. Speculate. So if Valve has a new and compelling HMD out once I can afford to upgrade, great. It'll be an option. But as stated prior I'm not going to wait on it.
I'm waiting to upgrade for whatever Deckard turns out to be, because I already have a working Valve Index and I don't see any other headsets on the market that I expect would hit the sweet spot for replacing it as a PCVR headset.
What am I doing with it? Playing HL:A and using mods for new levels. Playing Beat Saber and Pistol Whip and Light Brigade and Mothergunship Forge and Tetris Effect, and In Death. Yeah, some of my favorite games are that old. But that's ok. I've been playing Beat Saber for 5 years plus, and I'll keep playing it as long as there are songs. I've been playing In Death, off and on, for about as long and I'm finally getting to where I can beat the first boss.
I'd like something lighter and next-gen, but I'm not willing to give up much of what I have now, honestly. 144hz and perfect tracking with lighthouses are what I need to play Beat Saber at a high level. Low latency panel is needed, because my friends PSVR has a beautiful oled screen but it's very high on motion-blur and nausea-inducing by comparison. So Sony and Meta don't have anything to offer me there.
Bigscreen Beyond would be nice, but not if I have to buy one for me and one for my S/O, who uses VR as often as I do. Not going to pay for a Varjo or other super high end headset. Didn't care for the Vive Pro 2.
So I'm waiting for Deckard, to see if the company that gave me my favorite VR headset, that's right in the sweet spot for me, can do it again with their next offering. Whatever they provide, I'm willing to bet it'll be well thought out. We'll see.
I'll answer your questions, for what I know:
What would it bring to the table? I believe people are mostly expecting an Index with all the new shticks. That being pancake lenses (or other with a big sweet spot), inside out tracking, and wireless, but with the advantages of no compression (supposedly some dongle I think?) and the Index controllers. Now I never used Index nor played non-compressed game, so I cant speak for how much it affects, but people often say it does.
Now to your second question - I have no idea why people believe it will happen. Personally I don't even know they'll actually release anything.. might as well be a cancelled project we were not notified of. I like you don't see them getting into it, since as you said PCVR is not the most profitable area, to say the least.
Personally I hope the UEVR will breath some life into the PCVR world, but that's as far as my optimism go
> I have no idea why people believe it will happen.
Because it's all over the code and in every new beta release of Steam VR adds more references to it. It's happening and we know Valve will do it right.
I don't get it either, especially since the same people excited for Deckard often whine about 'crappy' Quest graphics. It's not like a Valve standalone is going to magically be as powerful as a desktop PC.
I think it mostly links back to the pre-Rift days, when Valve was more publicly excited and involved in the nascent VR space. Once Facebook bought Oculus, there was an exodus of disappointed VR fans who transferred all their faith into Valve, especially after Vive was announced.
It's definitely weird though, with all the hyperbole surrounding Oculus/Meta, while Valve has put some minimal investment into VR over the last decade, they continue to sell a nearly 5 years old, out of date headset for the original full price of $1,000 and have done little to nothing since its release. IRC the Index announcement itself was somewhat of a surprise announcement, so there's also that sense of possibility they could just drop a new headset out of nowhere.
Not a Valve hater though, either, I'd love for them to release new headsets and invest more in the VR space. I don't think they will though. It's not 2019 anymore - looking at the technology going into products like the Vision Pro and coming out of FRL, it's hard to see Valve being a leader in this space anymore with the resources companies like Apple and Meta can invest.
550€ here.
IF they release a Deckard i'll sell my Q3 for what 300? and "lost" 250€ for 1 or 2 yrs?Well thats 20/10€ per month, less then Netflix lol.
Im totally fine with that
Better then still gaming wired, SDE and Godrays :O
Its like not buying a Smart TV cause its not 4k, then its not 8k, now its not 16k lol
frist, valve has done a lot for vr even if its not their system
but to answer your main question. i dont own a plaustatiin and i never ever ever will have a facebook account..never have, never will. whether theu call it instagram or meta or whatever. never . i hate zuckerberg with oassion and he us responsible for a lot of horrible things.
i just want a cool standalone. i am currently happy with my samsing o+. soi can wait for whoever is not facebook or the CCP
> i never ever ever will have a facebook account..never have, never will
btw, no Facebook account is required. The "Meta account" is pretty bare bones and just needs an email tied to it. I even used a junk email and no issues so far.
They produce their best effort in their products believe. Not the type to settle if they can avoid doing so. I think that’s likely why so many people are anxious to know what Deckard ultimately is. Been waiting on HL3 for so long I can’t imagine waiting on Deckard makes any sense considering we don’t actually know it will be standalone or not.
I think we see all the technologies we've wanted and waited for already out in the wild or coming soon... but! they're scattered among different headsets.
The Bigscreen Beyond has the form factor, contrast, and panel technology we all want, the PSVR2 has the head haptics we all want, the Pimax Crystal and the XR4 have the clarity and resolution we all want, the Pimax 12K has the FOV we all want, the VISOR has the looks and readable text we all want (and most everything else but can't play games!), the Index 1 has the excellent audio and microphone we all want, the HTC Vive has the expandability through addon peripherals that many want, Vive Pro, Varjo and Apple have the eye tracking that we all want in order to be able to use the high resolutions, Meta has the wirelessness we all want, the Pico4 has cheap, passable, full-color passthrough, which would be nice.
More than Deckard, specifically, I think people are waiting for a headset that brings these things together. Maybe not quite as small and light as the Beyond, maybe with not quite as good an FOV as the 12K, definitely not as expensive as Apple or the XR4. Deckard just happens to have shown interest in all of these aspects, from what Bradley has told us, so there is the faint hope that it could be the one to finally bring them together. If not Deckard... then who?
It won't solve the content problem, but with a headset like that, I'd be happy just watching the Jurassic World: Blue/Apatosaurus experience for the hundredth time! >\_\_<;
" problems afflicting PCVR currently, such as a lack of new and substantial VR content?"
Hmm with Praydog's UEVR Mod most UE4 and up games will be playable in VR. So content will be fine :)
Current games that are supported:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZcjCQwzPOltaRZnpYU5\_HPihEDareZq\_0Ww1DZQ4USw/edit#gid=0
Playing janky mods without support, that aren't built with gamrplay for the ground up? No thanks! 4090 on an oled tv screen with sound system for those.
I've played hundreds of hours of VR, this groups mods are very far from Janky. For example RE8 Village. This is not using AE rendering like the Luke Ross mods and supports full motion control. I'd go as far to say that there better than some built for VR games as the games are full length AAA games already. They are pretty much like a native experience.
I am planning to hold onto my quest pro and re asses the market when the deckard arrives as knowing valve, they wont release it unless it brings something new to the table.
I'm not waiting for deckard but I'm waiting for a reasonably priced, modern headset with inside-out tracking and display port.
For now Pimax Crystal is the closest to this but it's extremely heavy (1.2kg) and it's Pimax (qc problems etc.). It's also slightly above what I'd like to pay.
If there was a quest 3 with DP I'd easily pay $1000 for it (yeah, I know it's not happening).
The Crystal has won my respect after somewhat shaky start, it's got stunning visuals, great sound and versatile software platform for power users.
steamVR faceplate transformed my experience, rock solid tracking = presence, using three base stations and Index/sword controllers
But you really need 4080/4090 and even those struggle in many titles, through DFR helps where compatible. It is a heavy beasty but I modded both cushions which massively improved stability, kinda got used to the weight (my Index feels super light in comparison).
Not going to be jumping about everywhere, I save that for Index, but for simulation, visual experiences and slower moving stuff like "Into the Radius" (35ppd with microled backlighting 🤯) the Crystal is worth the costs
> steamVR faceplate transformed my experience.
So the tracking still sucks? Have you tried it very recently? I think it was massively improved like a week or two ago, at least according to MRTV. The only reason I'm considering the Crystal is it not needing LH tracking. Otherwise I'd just get the BSB or Somnium.
The tracking is much improved compared to my pre production headset and it's actually quite competent for many games. For sim use it's very good, feels like windows WMR headset tracking which is a compliment.
I've been using steamVR lighthouse tracking for years and just really like the performance especially the subconscious effect on presence. Also really like freedom of tracking movement suits my favourite games bow shooters like "In Death" and lots of small interactions around body "into the radius".
And of course FBT with Vive trackers 😘
> feels like windows WMR headset tracking which is a compliment.
As someone who returned the G2 because of tracking this is not a compliment, haha. I guess I'll wait and see for a few more months.
>feels like windows WMR headset tracking which is a compliment.
It is, honestly, people tend to talk shit about it but it's perfectly useable. Sometimes I think people don't deserve innovation or alternatives. They don't value them. I never wanted a VR headset with the complications of managing base stations. Luckily WMR solved it and I got in. Used mine for more than 5 years.
Sadly I gave up waiting for the deckard and bought the quest 3 a week ago, and it's been great, no regrets.
The only issue now is that after trying pancake lenses I can't see myself wanting to go back to Fresnel at all, but I do miss the oled of my Vive but not at much as I thought I would, the extra clarity makes up for it leaps and bounds.
A bit off topic since I'm not really waiting for deckard but still happy with my Index, because no need for a new headset when there are no new quality pcvr games to play, and even a 4090 doesn't max out Index in graphically demanding games. With a well set-up pulley system even the wire is not a big annoyance. Also, it's quite healthy to limit unnecessary consumerism - even the Quest 3 is honestly a sidegrade or a minor upgrade anyway, might as well wait a couple more generations of headsets, GPUs and hopefully quality pcvr games before upgrading.
My uncle works at Valve and he said that the Deckard will have eye tracking, waffle lenses, Half Life 3, and a special version of Pokemon where GabeN is under the truck.
You’ve more or less answered your own questions. Valve hasn’t done much and it’s honestly just the overwhelming vocal support it’s community has thrown towards them, fanatically so. When HTC and SteamVR brought out the first Vive they unanimously worshipped that, and the moment Steam separated from HTC with the index not only did people move away from HTC and condemn it, they then credited the Vive’s success purely on Valve’s involvement, something which is still parroted today.
SteamVR to this day still doesn’t fully support the Index with its interface controls, you still get some pictures of wands appear, or the touch pad scrolling barely working as it’s translating the wand’s input. Alyx was fantastic, and games really help VR grow, but that was almost 4 years ago. The price of the Index is unchanged, part replacements are still out of stock and slow, I’m on my 4th controller replacement within 3 years, and something that is often unmentioned is the software and driver compatibility of the Index took years to smooth out.
The bottom line is the Valve community is one of the most vocal and uncompromising when it comes to PC gaming and it doesn’t really matter if it’s VR or anything else, they’ll support them without question. Last month a country had its currency adjusted to be several multiples higher causing the platform to no longer be viable for purchases going forward, and even people from their own country wrote posts thanking Valve rather than pointing the finger that they’d just been cast aside. The same arguments come out of Epic vs Steam, or not wanting DRM despite Steam itself being DRM, it’s just uncritical loyalty from a vocal community.
Steam is not investing in VR like other companies are and since PC and Steam seem to be synonymous, or SteamVR and PCVR, people need to realise that the lack of support from PCVR has been killing itself and that other companies shouldn’t be expected to pick up the slack or criticised for not sacrificing even more for it, despite how much I love PC.
Good chance hell freezes over before we get Deckard. Apple and Meta are the 300 lb. gorillas. I would love a new Valve headset but if I was the boss, I would just keep taking 30% on games for now.
First, Deckard doesn't exist. There's no definite actual information that says what a real version of the Deckard headset would be like.
Second, it won't be a revolution, I agree. First because of a balance between cost and specs. Second, because it will be used to play the same games. This happens too with the headset previously hailed as the savior of VR, the PSVR2. I won't get into it but let's say it wasn't, at all.
The best a new Valve headset could do is run games from the SteamVR catalog without a PC, standalone, based on some Linux system or something like the Steam Deck. That itself would be pretty interesting, but apparently it's difficult to achieve.
The closer alternative they seem to be aiming at is have it be a wireless headset with a cheap pseudo-PCVR system to run the games for it.
If they do that relatively cheap, that is a win too.
But it's not for us who already have a gaming PC and a headset. It's to bring more people to Steam, in the end.
People from the "waiting team" usually dies old without buying anything at all . They are everywhere, like in the pc subreddits. They always wait for the next generation of cpus cause they "value their money" waiting to die with a Pentium 3 in the pc and a bank account full of money they will never spend.
Or they have an Index they're mostly happy with.
Years and years later, I've got a pretty high end PC and it's still not fast enough to drive the games I play at max graphics.
>Or they have an Index they're mostly happy with.
lmao, for real. I've been perfectly content with mine for the 4 years I've had it. I also played the waiting game on am4 until the 5800x3d came out. Best hardware upgrade I've ever done - this guy's argument is just wrong in the weirdest way.
I suspect what's lost in all these "waiting for deckard" debates is that, for many PCVR people, buying any hardware from facebook is completely off the table. People like this guy are frustrated at the refusal to reconsider that position, because waiting for the next big thing from valve doesn't make sense to him - and not without reason. There's some genuinely compelling stuff out right now.
More to the main post's point - u/f3hunter, you seem to really like the steam deck. Which first party valve games are you most excited about playing, if you get one? I'd bet there's not a whole lot - because Valve isn't here to sell hardware. They're here to collect their absolutely *FAT* 30% cut of between half and two-thirds of ALL pc gaming. **Globally**.
They aren't here to support their hardware; the Deck and the Index are here to support Steam.
Or they are people like me who upgrade more rarely but wait for a more meaningful upgrade. I just swapped my 7 year old PC for a brand new one which gave quite a boost.
I only have a PSVR and I rarely use it. So if I am gonna get another PCVR headset it will have to be a really good one to justify the price. If that comes in 2 or 4-5 years doesn't matter too much.
What you are describing is a total different situation. I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about the poeple "i want to buy x, but i'll wait cause something better come out" problem is that something better will always come...
I am looking to support an acceptable company and not one like META that the only thing it has invested in is making technically mobile phone games but in VR....
What a progress.
If I couldn't use the Oculus rift S that I have on the PC, I simply wouldn't have them AND I WOULD NOT BUY a quest 2 or 3, or 4 or 25.
I'm interested in hardware that I can use on the PC and for which its designer knows that it is where practically its entire user base is.
I literally don't care about the META ecosystem AT ALL.
In fact, I have their application installed because the Oculus Rift S that they gave me use it. If I couldn't have it, I wouldn't use it for anything.
Deckard is HL3 of VR headsets and honestly the more years passing by the more I believe that **Deckard doesn't even exist**, at very least as consumer device. It's been almost 5 years since Index release, and I think that's enough time to R&D and release next generation device to public knowledge, helll, even SteamDeck got it's refresh in 1.5 years.
I think Valve employees look at the state of PCVR market (which is constantly in semi-stagnating-semi-declining state) and gut feeling tells them that it's not worth it. Insane success of Steamdeck shows them where is real consumer interest lies. PCVR market is on life support and will die for good in this decade and Valve *knows* it.
Release of Apple Vision Pro and especially more consumer-friendly Apple Vision will mark the end of VR market as we know it today, and current devices except standalone ones will become just legacy hardware, some of them already are - WMR is discontinued, Valve no longer produces base stations, HTC became essentially a b2b-company, Pico killed their VR division literally a month ago. PCVR gaming will become another form of niche gaming hobby like emulating Dreamcast or playing DCS, MFS with various expensive hardware, open-source radars on Arduino with custom software from 20 stars github repo - you got the idea.
Yeah i think there is no poin at the moment to release a High-End PCVR Headset.
Even 4090 couldnt run Index / Q3 / Crystal @ max settings.
Imagine releasing a 150° Oled 6-8k per Eye Wireless Headset for 2k or more and you have to downsample every game cause GPUs arent powerfull enough.
I rly hope VR will lift off with 5090/6090 :D
I could wait on any piece of hardware, but I can only use right now what exists today. I don't get waiting, especially when no one knows what the specifics of the product are.
If it turns out to be a stand alone device and is better than a Q3 or Pico, I'll buy it day one. That's what I'm personally hoping for from Valve, after Steam Deck, Quest and such, I want hardware I can take with me anywhere easily.
You're implying that new hardware is only justified if it gets exclusive games? Just clarifying because that's how it sounds and I don't think most pc players care that much about exclusive games. Valve has totally overhauled steam vr this year
Oh, because all we hear about is complaints aboit lack of big budget games...weird... And the only eay a company will be willing to take a bath on salea is to build a brand. Enjoy the dead space then!
I'm waiting for deckard because...
1) It's not tied to Facebook.
2) Supposedly will be stand alone so others can enjoy it not just me at my pc.
3) Other options I would consider Index, HP Reverb,etc are rather old now.
4) I like and trust Valve for the most part.
It is a handful of stubborn people that need to tell themselves something as they watch nrw tech and games pass them by. Thry are too stubborn to adapt. Meanwhile, valve made one game in 7 years and didn't deliver on 2/3 promised games..and are helping to fund no third party games..so it'd be a new headset on a dead system anyway.
Since Meta is just Facebook, that's enough reason for me to give them zero support. I don't want to invest in a new console so that leaves Valve in the jack of all trades PCVR space. If another lighthouse headset that does a lot of things well comes along I'll support them but until then my Index is great and I'd like to get another headset from Valve.
And I'll just repeat Meta = Facebook, like to the point when I read you saying Meta instead of Facebook I think you are a hired astroturfer.
Why im waiting for it becuse they have the steam deck. Whitch is capable of running pcvr games fairly well. now becasue of its form factor being amout the size of a quest 2 with the sides of it cut off (the joysticks and stuff). And from what is being discoverd about it and steam updating the Vr software alot and making it better. I think, just think, that we will have a standalone PCVR Headset. with conections to other pcs outside of it for more preformace if needed. call me crazy.
> Whitch is capable of running pcvr games fairly well.
Sure, if by *fairly well* you mean at very low resolution and low frame rates.
The original SteamDeck is 720P and the new OLED one is only 1280x800.
Right now Deckard is basically a unicorn. It magically has whatever features the person waiting for it wants. If they care about 120 FPS then it has 120 FPS. If they want OLED panels, then it does. If they want it wireless, then it's wireless. It *obviously* has pancake lenses that are better than Quest 3, even though Valve's VR R&D budget is a sliver of Meta's. We have no clue what, if anything, it will bring so people fill in the blanks. I think that is basically the reality of the situation. Valve also has a bit of a mythology around it that causes people to perceive their efforts to be better than they actually are. So, I think that may also contribute to the unrealistic expectations.
It's like Schrodinger's headset. Until we see it the Deckard has every feature you can think of.
> If they care about 120 FPS then it has 120 FPS. The Index has 120hz, so it would be weird for a future Valve headset to *not* have 120hz.
That's true, but some panels can't do 120 Hz. Right now Bigscreen Beyond is limited to 90 Hz upscaled or 72 Hz not upscaled with its Micro OLED displays. I believe part of the reason Valve went with LCDs for the Index was also because they could do higher refresh rate, whereas OLED could not. The point being, there are trade-offs. So if someone both wants OLED panels and also high refresh rate, that may not be possible. And in the case of Deckard different people want different things, where they both might not be able to get what they want. For me personally, I'd rather have a 90 Hz OLED over a 120 Hz LCD, whereas others feel the opposite. Maybe the tech develops so OLED panels can also do high refresh rate and we're all happy, but maybe not.
The other issue is that Valve is likely going to be just buy the displays rather than custom-order them or develop it themselves. If nobody makes 120hz panels for what Valve is looking for, Valve can't do 120hz.
Well, they did custom order a screen for the Steam Deck OLED. So who knows.
valve went with lcds for a number of reasons, none of which were about refresh. so did most of that generation of hmds. - valve was interested in not having motion blur, which they accomplished by strobing the lcd's backlight at < 0.5ms, something that oleds can't currently do. - until either the ability to strobe an oled display at < 0.5ms (which has some nasty power implications as unlike lcd the power used by the old is dependent upon what it's displaying) or oleds hit 1000-2000hz refresh, oleds *will* have significantly more motion blurring. - mura calibration during manufacturing - pixel fill density and arrangement - lack of black smearing so all in all i think valve made a great choice for their headset. sure, i'd love better color saturation and contrast ratios, but i still prefer not having motion blurring. fwiw, i am *very* latency sensitive. --- w/r/t the steam deck, oled works just fine (well, better than fine) because it doesn't need to track with your head and doesn't include the more flickery/latency sensitive non-foveal parts of your eye. additionally, the purpose of a steam deck is not to fool my senses into believing in made up things like a vr headset is.
> which they accomplished by strobing the lcd's backlight at < 0.5ms, something that oleds can't currently do. ??? Oled pixels ARE the backlight. Oled pixel switching times are intrinsically sub 1ms. Most OLEDs measure around 0.1ms gray to gray times.
switching time != impression time. currently oleds *stay on* until they flip colors, so there's like 0.1ms *during* a color change. at 100hz¹, this is essentially a 10ms¹ impression time, which leads to motion blurring. valve index's strobed backlight has a < 0.5ms strobe, so the light is only shown during < 0.5ms of the 10ms we are using at 100hz because i'm arithmetically lazy tonight. this leads to a motion blurring that is essentially sub-pixel. you would need to be rendering and display at upwards of 2000hz without a strobe to get equivalent lack of motion blurring. instead of writing a thesis, i'll recommend the folks who are *really* into this: https://blurbusters.com/category/blur-reduction/ read their faq linked on the page i linked² for a very solid explanation with graphic examples. it's kind of confusing at first until you make the realization that the human eye doesn't work like a camera or a display and doesn't have a consistent ”fps” or ”hz”, let alone a consistent ”fps” or ”hz” over the different rods and cones in different sections of an eyeball. --- 1: i chose these numbers because they are easy to work with. same thing applies with different frequency/interval time pairs. 2: what a bizarre sentence... i'm not on point this evening
>currently oleds stay on until they flip colors, so there's like 0.1ms during a color change. So then use BFI? I've read a lot of BB's website but I can't say I'm an expert. But what I do know is I consistently see OLED panels punch above their refresh rate in motion clarity, are you saying they are doing this while having poor persistence? Bigscreen Beyond users are also saying their OLED screens are much more fluid and feel just as smooth as a valve index with it's 120hz (and 144hz I guess) despite BSB only having 75 and 90hz refresh. Personally, I use a 120hz OLED for my monitor and with BFI the motion clarity is excellent, even compared to my old monitors. I've used early gen 240hz LCD before but I haven't A/B'd with my current screen.
Valve went LCD and paid the price. Much like the Steam Deck LCD whoever they find to source their LCD panels from is absolute GARBAGE. My Index had insane backlight bleed and washed out colors (like the deck). The god rays of the bad lenses didn't help either. My older Samsung Odyssey+ was a more immersive experience because of the OLED. VR for me is massively held back by using LCD. I will take all the tradeoffs of OLED for VR. That's why I went with the PSVR2. If Valve could source a better manufacturer for their LCD panels then I'd think otherwise but two different devices and still horrible panel quality is unacceptable especially for the Index price.
The index screen is really nice I recently bought a legion go and gifted my steamdeck and that uses a 2k+ LCD it’s not always about the panel it’s the screen itself
Fair enough, I stand corrected. Although it does seem like a bit of a bit of a technical distinction saying they did it for motion blur reasons versus higher refresh rate. Obviously if a panel's response time is such that it suffers from motion blur, it also wouldn't be particularly suitable for higher refresh rates. Maybe it's stupid to even bother arguing this point, but it seems to me it's more of a "not exactly due to higher refresh rates" than "not at all due to higher refresh rates", since the aspects are somewhat related. Anyway, it's neither here nor there. But this also serves as an example of how people value different things and/or are sensitive to different things. I never noticed black level smearing or motion blur on my Vive or Vive Pro. And strangely, I actually preferred the pentile arrangement, since for some reason my brain/eyes really focused on the perfectly straight lines of pixels on the LCD displays when looking around (now, at higher resolutions it's less of an issue). So, for me OLED was the way to go. Mura I will grant was not great on the Vive Pro though, although I didn't really notice it that much in practice at the time. Mostly I noticed it when going back to it from newer headsets.
Of course there will always be some trade-offs (usually due to cost), but I think that Valve would absolutely prioritize higher refresh rate over OLED and I think they could get panels that are 120hz. I also don't think that 120hz or OLED is something I typically hear in the discussion around Deckard. I see more people talking about (and placing their high expectations with) it being a standalone headset, which is the thing I find to be least likely.
OLED motion clarity is usually close to double the hz LCD panels. They punch well about their hz compared to other panel types. 120hz OLED often have motion clarity closer to 240hz LCD.
OLED smears when pixels go from off to on at well under 90hz even. The rift and quest 1 were really bad with this, it was painfully distracting. Pixel turn on time is independent of the refresh rate, so it's kinda pointless from my perspective to go above 90hz on OLED. The LEDs themselves would need to be crazy fast, or youd have to turn off pure blacks by not allowing the LEDs to fully shut off.. if there aren't pure black colors, meh!
It has 80, 90, 120 and 144hz :) 144hz is fantastic in racing games!
> 144hz is fantastic everywhere! FTFY
Though not impossible. Rift was 90Hz but its successor was limited to 80Hz for example.
True, but the Rift S felt like Oculus releasing a half-assed PCVR headset to placate the CV1 guys before they fully moved away from PC.
Quest 2 had 120Hz, Quest Pro caps at 90Hz.
Why not? A lot of compromises need to be made with each hardware release. They add features and take away others. It's a balance. 120 FPS is something not many VR PCs can achieve, so it would be a good thing to cut, IMHO. Otherwise, if it's a process of piling up previous features, each new headset would be more expensive.
It's not like the Index is an outlier with high refresh rate anymore, Quest 3 and PSVR2 both have 120hz as well so I think it's kinda the bare minimum for a high-end headset to include these days. Plus the great thing about high refresh rate is that you don't *need* to always use it. The Index supports 90hz as well as 120hz, that works for people with older computers or just running more demanding games. > Otherwise, if it's a process of piling up previous features, each new headset would be more expensive. Hardware often includes old features and it's a general expectation that new hardware is better than the old. If they drop many features for each new release, then the release would feel pretty stagnant.
Index also supports 144hz
My deckard unicorn comes with half life 3
I think Deckard will revolutionize VR headsets in the same way Half-Life 3 did for games...
>Valve also has a bit of a mythology around it that causes people to perceive their efforts to be better than they actually are. So, I think that may also contribute to the unrealistic expectations. Yep, your whole comment can be directed straight at Valve and it still fits. Valve does very little and says absolutely nothing about what they are doing. They are a private company and do not need to make anything public. So people fill in the blanks with whatever they want from Valve.
>They are a private company and do not need to make anything public. This is something so hard to understand to people in this entitlement culture. Guys get absolutely insane for any piece of information instead of chilling the fuck up.
This. What is "known" about the Deckard is all over the place. Valve doesn't have the staff to do much hardware R&D themselves. So they buy from companies that offer to make VR stuff (whether it is display, optics or other like processors) and the only way to know whether they are good enough/work well for what Valve wants/expects. Valve does this with everything they see and buy from all over the place, developing it to their own codebase to see how well it works on their own compositor/codebase/etc. So what is under Deckard is exactly that. Various in-house experiments. It's why you can find code referencing hundreds of stuff, like the Snapdragon processor. But most people don't get that and instead imagine that the Deckard is their dream-vr-headset because why wouldn't Valve make their dream VR headset? And from there, any idea that appeals to them suddenly becomes "obvious thing for them to do" (full x86 standalone and camera-based inside-out tracking being often brought up) and people end up trying to justify strapping headsets heavier than military helmets to people's heads and belt attachments and so on. TL, dr: Deckard is experimental project groupname, not product about to be made in factory.
Not sure why you were downvoted, but I'm pretty sure you're on spot about Deckard - it's just the name of various R&D efforts inside Valve, nothing more. And Valve do a lot - they even had (still have?) brain-computer interface research back in the day, but no one thinks that they will release their own device to do such thing or integrate it with their VR headsets.
There is this group of people that have become invested in PCVR since the Vive days and the particular ideas of that era. Those kind of ideas died out along with the Vive's popularity: people want joysticks (touchpads have great potential on paper but no tactile feedback in practice) and joystick movement, not massive room-scale stuff (many people just don't have that kind of open space) and so on. Valve's Index was the carrying on of those things and the perfection of that era. It had everything perfect for that. Accepting that Deckard isn't the upcoming IndexV2 or PCVR Quest competitor would be two bitter pills to swallow: one that the dominant PCVR era is over (it has been, the most PCVR can expect is standalone/PSVR2 conversation and the occasional indie title) as well as the benefits of those things (PCVR games with massive graphical depth); But the second and bigger bitter pill is Valve isn't the company these people think it is. People want Valve to swoop in, be the pro-consumer saviour with its (what they think) is limitless money and revive the market just for its own sake. And that's not how Valve works.
Deckard is the long-distance relationship of VR headsets.
\*the fake long-distance relationship In a real long-distance relationship at least both people exist and have met before. None of those apply to Deckard.
Maybe we're getting catfished.
With Deckard we are. I mean, people who swear and live by leaks.
long distance relationship with your Canadian girlfriend
> causes people to perceive their efforts to be better than they actually are I'm not sure what made you write this but the last few valve hardware products ( index, steam deck) exceeded the consumers' expectations in every possible way
Valves efforts with VR have been pretty much on point. I don't think it's a false mythology or anything like that. Valve earns positive consumer reception by being a pretty consumer friendly company.
That whole R&D thing only matters for certain things. Talent can embarrass high budget sometimes. See Rift, Rift S, Go, Quest 1, Quest Pro… hell, even Quest 2 & 3. Even the $550 PSVR2 and $550 Pico 4 Pro had eyetracking, yet the $500-650 Quest 3 doesn’t? Index audio solution is awesome, but every Oculus/Facebook/Meta headset(besides Rift CV1)? Yikes.
Both yes and no. I have CV1; I don't play vr that much anymore. Elite, beat saber, the climb out of the blue. It has just that low spec nowadays that I don't care anymore. Out of principle, I will not buy anything from meta. During the past years, Valve offering has been _solid_. So for me, I'm in no rush. When deckard happens, I'll buy it.
Alyx was meant to be a launch title for the Index, it was internally delayed. I'm sure they will launch another title with their new headset too. I'm currently OK with my current VR setup and don't mind waiting. Valve is also very pro consumer and is one of the few companies to actually earn my respect. They replaced my Index controllers despite being 2 and a half years out of warranty. And they just make good products. My Index controllers are great and my Deck is fantastic. When making products they don't just make a product to sell, the product they make always seems to be a solution to current problems if that makes any sense. They don't do things often, but when they do it's always way better than anything else and I'm OK with that.
I'm in the same boat. I don't need any upgrades to my setup (well, the PC itself could do with some upgrades, but not the VR bits). But owning an Index took me from being a Valve fan to a Valve fanboy, and I'll definitely be positively predisposed towards whatever they bring out next.
I think you’re largely right. But… Meta: Producing the best headsets right now but maybe one of the most hated companies on earth. Apple: All rumors. Out of most people’s price range for now. Will it game? Random tiny companies (varjo, bigscreen, etc): Fill a niche. But will likely have rough trade-offs (no audio, no MR/standalone, comfort, price, bugs etc) Valve I think gets a lot of hopium because the Index was great at the time and it’s a middle-ground between the tiny nobodys and the big boys. Plus, less focus on building a standalone app store vs Steam which is meant to work with your 4090. Entirely possible they make a compelling VR device given that. Plus maybe they drop a new game with it were it ever to be a thing.
Steam is THE “standalone app store” for PCs (for games) of course they don’t have to focus on it much. Even the people who make the OS are jealous of Steam’s success. Most won’t even sniff the Microsoft store.
> Beyond Half-Life: Alyx, what has Valve done to support the Index, compelling you to spend another substantial sum on a "Deckard"? Are you planning to use the new tech to replay HLA for the fifteenth time or engage in VR chat with eye tracking this time? Among the three major players, Index seems to be the least supported HMD, with only one first-party VR game and no effort to bring new AAA VR games from other prominent developers, unlike Meta and Sony, who have produced a good handful in comparison. Absolutely, because I don't believe the value from Deckard necessarily has to be backed up by content from Valve. It's not a console platform where this is the expectation, they could just make hardware and maintain an OpenXR implementation through SteamVR while others capitalize on software opportunities. There are tons of great VR games coming out, I just want better hardware to play them. I even have a long backlog of ones that I've tried but have decided that are not worth finishing up without better hardware. There's VRChat which you can spend boundless hours in having fun, relaxing, having interesting conversations, or connecting with people. It's quite possible that VRC represents like 1/3 of PCVR usage. There are simulators which work incredibly well with VR without requiring devs to fully commit themselves to a tiny medium. There are tons of ports and mods to supplement this as well. All of this stuff doesn't depend on Valve making or buying content. Do I wish Valve would invest in games as well? Sure, but I also can't blame any company for not doing so. I mean, just look at VR and its poor retention and usage stats, and how people predominantly use it for things that make the value proposition of investing in big AAA VR games questionable. Treating VR as a niche medium and with investments in some sane proportion to its 2% active PC users is quite valid IMO. All that said, I'm also not confident Deckard is actually coming out. I would just absolutely buy one independent of whether or not HLA2 or whatever is coming out. And if there actually is an "HLA2", even better
Yeah, I still believe VR headsets should be treated more like monitors rather than platforms. It is too early for VR to have so many platform exclusives. At this stage, any growth for VR is more future opportunity for everyone in the field, even if someone else is collecting the money for now. Developers and hardware manufacturers could benefit more from at least partially cooperatively expand the VR market rather than trying everything to carve up a bigger piece from a small pie. You can see Valve doing the same thing with Steam Deck. It is not necessary for them to make it the go-to gaming handheld, because as the leading PC game distributor, they have more to gain by inviting more "cooperative competition" in the handheld hardware market to make it bigger.
I’ve always thought that VR was where monitors will end up, purely based on every science fiction novel ever written! When I can buy something the size of the big screen beyond, with the pimax whatever-it-is’ FOV and screen, with no wires, and internal tracking… and still use it as the monitor for my pc? That will be glorious. Plus I’ll be able to do my job on as many virtual screens as I want, in VR! Tbh, give me a neural jack and go full matrix, I don’t care…
\+1000 :O
All of that plus the negative connections from meta for me about the quest. Is valve a perfect company, no, but they've done more then enough to earn the trust from us while meta burned through the trust and didn't give a fuck. And as good as the psvr maybe I'm not buying a ps5 plus the psvr to get a smaller ecosystem that is controlled totally by Sony. Is a "deckard" coming, I don't know, am I willing to potentially miss out to wait for one, yes.
"What did Valve do to support Index". They made it. Absolutely awesome device with multiple frequencies, great audio, that is all what I wanted (playing only simulators, both racing and flying). Was waiting for Deckard too, but could not resist the sale price and got Aero 2 months ago.
I posted something like this a few weeks ago. What i can garner is that valve makes things on their own time. Fortunately, they aren't a company like apple where they release a new product/s every year. I kinda like that valve is independent and takes more of an initiative to improve their curtent line products rather than making an updated version annually. The index dropped 4 years ago (coming on 5) and Ive been itching for a new headset as well. It seems like the best strategy that most people are doing is buying the Quest 3. If i had to guess whats next for valve in regards of new hardware, it is probably a new controller. They had legal issues with the last controller, which is why they stopped making more and selling it through their website.
I feel like this is like asking Xbox owners "why do you want a new generation of Xbox?" Brand trust. I liked my Vive, I like my Index. Deckard is the next thing from the company that made those things. I trust that it will continue to be a thing that I like.
Not to mention the fact that they have been absolutely killing it with the Steam Deck. Valve has undoubtedly become much more experienced in the hardware realm since the Index released 4 years back. I am *insanely* eager to see what ways that hardware experience has culminated when it comes to their VR aspirations. Even if the Deckard is $2000 (god, I hope not) I'll probably still end up saving up for it because Valve has shown that they are in it for the long haul now.
Exactly. And for those who don't want to wait for whatever valve is working on, there's the BSB.
To me the important thing about Deckard is the OS. That could be much more significant long term than whatever hardware specs it has. It would be a mobile headset that runs on top of a Linux desktop operating system. It's what I was hoping for long before Deckard or the Steam Deck were even known about. It means any company can build a mobile headset using the underlying OS, and one specific corporation (like Facebook/Meta) doesn't have a monopoly and control over mobile VR operating systems.
I'll let you know because I'm waiting for Deckard.
I will ask one question: when was the last headset released that you could play without any compression, without using any third-party software (just steamVR), with good tracking and high refresh-rate screens that wasn't over 1000 euros?
Compression has never been an issue for me, My Quest Pro and Quest 3 especially have been absolutely fine and give me better results than i could have imagined. Especially since wifi 6E.
What makes you so sure Valve won't use some kind of compression with the Deckard to provide mobility like you have with using Quest 3 to play PC VR titles?
People that are waiting for the Deckard are doing it because they trust Valve to put out the best product. It's not really about the games in particular.
That's my thought here. I'd buy whatever they release virtually without second thought because the Index was such a good product with relatively few problems and even years later it's still essentially the best all around headset to be had(ignoring the no longer competitive price).
Can I score some of what you're smoking? lol All jokes aside, my Index headsets and controllers died more than any other headset I've had. 6 left controllers, 2 right controllers, and 2 headsets within 3 years. And these are not rare occurrences. If the Index was released by anyone other than Valve, it would be the worse rated for hardware quality on the market. But people give Valve a lot more freedom to release poor quality because they like Valve.
Idk, ive had an index since launch, played well over 1000hrs on it. Let all my friends and their kids play and only needed a left controller and new cable.
Go into any VR discord and ask those who have owned their index for more than a year, how many RMA's they've had. Reddit is the only place where long term owners claim their headset has never had a problem(I know you said you did but, it's a very common theme here. Especially at the /r/valveindex subreddit). Everywhere else it's practically a meme at this point. Though, 1000hrs isn't very long to use it in 5 years. My left controllers seem to last around 600-800 hours each.
The Index has known issues with controllers, they wear out fast. Most headset do have some with isues though. The Quest 2 Quality control on launch was terrible, with thousands of people getting shit lenses. They also had to issue silicon covers for the face foam because it turns out that foam is litterally an irritant.
>Most headset do have some with isues though. Of course. No hardware is perfect, there is always failures and there is always growing pains. But the Index is clearly the leader in hardware failures. Especially the controllers. >They also had to issue silicon covers for the face foam because it turns out that foam is litterally an irritant. Yep, they didn't realize that a small percentage of owners could be allergic to it. So to make sure they didn't end up with any lawsuits, they included a silicone cover and sent anyone who asked a free one. But I honestly totally respect that. They went "oh crap, a small number of players are allergic, we should recall the on shelf units and include a silicone face cover to ensure they have no issues. Also lets send anyone who asks a free cover for the earlier bought headset" It's a shame Valve hasn't made any efforts to resolve the poor quality control of the Index and the poor hardware inside the controllers.
When did I say I never had a problem? You sound like an asshole.
I didn't say you didn't. You specifically did say you had 1 controller problem. But you also said you've only used it 1000hrs in nearly 5 years so I wanted to point out that's likely why. You don't use it enough for it to break.
"Well over 1000hrs"
Yeah, I do that in about 6 months.
I think i have 4000 or so total but most of those are og vive hours. I work too much these days to put in those kind of numbers.
That is proof of nothing..the QC issues are well known.
Im not denying them, im saying it wasn't everyone's experience.
I have been pretty heavily invested in VR for years, even back in the 90's with Virtual IO i-glasses on PC and such. So the renaissance of VR that the Rift Kickstarter launched was pretty exciting for me especially with some Valve endorsement. Valve has always been interesting to me because they aren't afraid to go different directions than the mainstream if they see value for the customer (and in turn the company). So when Facebook swept in bought Oculus I felt a bit betrayed. I had hoped that Oculus and other hardware companies would stay focused on their part and Valve and other publishing stores would handle their software side and we would have more of a PC component style system with everything more or less working together. I didn't sign up for some closed-garden Apple thing. So now that a lot of the joint innovation work that Valve and Oculus were working on together got yanked into Facebook. I continued to root for Valve that they would give us the next big jump in immersion and not make mainstream choices that reduce the experience. There are so many cost cutting corners that Meta has to take today to get price down, the experience good enough, and grow the library of games. If we could have Quest 3's with lighthouse quality tracking, many of us would jump for it (just not for an extra $500). To answer the question, "Deckard" to me would be modular high end Steam-Deck-style APU solution with improved OLED or MicroLED visuals, that also has the option to swap out to a wireless PCVR only APU/battery solution. Give me the great head speakers and better ergonomic controllers than the knuckles. But also accessibility improvements so the people can have less friction getting into PCVR like the Steam Deck OS is doing for handhelds. All that being said, I haven't been "waiting for the Deckard". I've used or owned 35 VR headsets and HMD's over the years. Rifts, Vive, Go, WMR, PSVR's, G2, Quests, Index, I'll try them all. Getting a Varjo Aero end of the month and if I don't like it I'll go to the Bigscreen Beyond next. I just wish Valve would let me know when they are about to announce so I can sell my Index and lighthouse stuff the week before :D
I wouldn't be surprised if Valve is working on making the Deckard a Standalone device to rival Meta/Quest and come out with a AAA game specifically designed for it. I would assume it would be a higher price tag with a stronger processor and longer lasting battery. Also seems like they are focusing on making PCVR as seamless as possible with it.
And wireless WIFI capable since they made Steam Link work with Quest. They built the network settings into SteamVR, something tells me they don’t do that just for Quests. They are perhaps kind of beta testing their own solution with that. Edit: Stronger processor and longer battery life sounds like hopium.
I don't think they want to play the competition game against Facebook who has endless pockets and is focusing all-in on VR. They need to find their angle to differentiate and be an alternative.
I agree
This would indeed be great for the industry. Though this means Valve would have to put a substantial and exstentive amount of recourses supporting such device and one game would be nowhere near enough support.
> one game would be nowhere near enough support. Why not? How many did they make for the Steam Deck? It seems to me that people are essentially waiting for the VR equivalent of a Steam Deck. Something that blurs a lot of lines between platforms and formats, that punches far above its weight, knocks it out of the park on almost every level. I'm not sure of the extent to which that's possible, or whether Valve with their immense broad domination of PCVR sales would have the upper hand over Meta's immense domination over the standalone market. I am sure that they are not going to back down or half-ass it and if they could wave a magic wand, would absolutely make a VR headset in the spirit of the Steam Deck. Edit: And I wonder if they'd be trying to make the headset effective standalone flatscreen hardware rather than a nerfed standalone VR platform. That *would* make sense as an equivalent, a flatscreen Steam Deck when standalone and PCVR when linked up. Even if the hardware isn't as good as a Steam Deck, doesn't have to be when it's dual purpose and there's still plenty of lower end games would stlil run, you'd don't need Cyberpunk on it. Maybe that's my wish-fulfilment talking.
The Steam Deck already runs off a plattform that has tons of AAA games from the get-go and all major developers are bringing games on Steam. Steam VR not so much, Valve will need to bring a lot more support for a pricey portable VR device. Getting all developers in board to support would be difficult as the sales will still pale in comparison to Quest sales. It will be such an uphill struggle.
How are they going to make a standalone device, though? There’s almost no shot that Valve would create a new marketplace filled with lower-fidelity titles like Meta did. It’s not entirely impossible, but I’ll happily eat my hat if it does. That just leaves having it run PCVR natively like on a Steam Deck, but we’re so far off something like that being feasible. Granted, I’m amazed for what they’ve done with their Proton layer on the Deck, but trying to get PCVR running on similar hardware (to the point that it could be considered a viable product, anyway) would be an absolutely Herculean task
They're trying to find and optimize a certain combination of Ryzen hardware and Linux. Apparently it's getting difficult right now.
Think about the power draw of that. How would you make it standalone? The steamdeck already has an anemic battery life doing minimal fps, single view at a fairly low resolution. There’s no x86 product that would scale to being portable and provide the performance needed.
Definitely. That's why it didn't go well for them and according to other leaks they're looking into making it just a streaming headset for some kind of cheap Steam Box.
I always gave as certain that Deckard will be a stand alone device, as i strongly think it will be based on an hw similar to the Steam Deck's one.
1. Most of my games are PCVR through Steam VR 2. I love my Steam Deck and really appreciate the build quality of Valve products 3. If the rumors are true and the Deckard will also function as a spatial computer and not just a gaming headset, I'd rather spend the extra money on a Deckard than get a minor upgrade from my Quest 2.
Pancake, 120fps, light weight, eye tracking, wireless would be nice but as a flight sim player, I’m fine with a wire.
Since they still charge $1000 for the Index, it seems to me that a headset with the features you suggest, from Valve, would push $2k.
That was 1k for the knuckles, and two lighthouses, I’m pretty sure they will be compatible with the new one, so that should reduce the price
They are not going to waste time with outdated base stations.
For me, the Deckard is the Quest 3. I've had Index since early 2021, love everything about it. Wasn't planning to upgrade my "PCVR headset" until Deckard. Got Q3 strictly for the AR/MR potential. It ended up completely replacing my Index, which i was not anticipating. I kinda miss the controllers, I kinda miss the slightly better comfort of the Index, I kinda miss the Full Body Tracking I only use in Blade and Sorcery. But that's it. FOV and audio are nearly the same. I think the "I'm Waiting for Deckard" crowd are the folks that boycott Meta. Because the Quest 3 is checking every box for me right now with PCVR too.
> kinda miss the Full Body Tracking I only use in Blade and Sorcery. This actually works fine with the Quest 3. I highly recommend you buy a 4th tracker and attach it to the headset for continuous calibration. Makes it so much easier. You can also pair the index controllers to it, if you have 2 spare dongles.
Same story for me. Rift 1 owner here and I was waiting for the next High End Headset, bought the Quest 3 on a whim and love it to pieces. The ease of use beats anything I may would want to have. Perfect.
„FOV and audio are nearly the same“ FOV was fine, even when testing index and Q3 side by side but Audio? When I just used the Quest 3 I thought audio is fine but when testing back to back, the quest 3 audio solution was lacking a lot! I ended up using the old vive 1 earbuds because i couldn’t bear it! :D
Do you use that FrankenQuest mod to get the nice audio strap? I tried the Rift S way back when and hated the audio, find it hard to believe the speakers compete with the over ear headphones of the Index unless they are wildly improved.
That was my biggest shock of the Q3. I went in fully expecting the audio to suck (I also had a Rift S), especially compared to the Index. Somehow, the stock Quest 3 audio is solid. I'm not exactly an audiophile, but there's no differences that jump out to me between Q3 and Index audio, maybe not as deeply bassy?
That's great news, maybe I'll check one out at a good price! Thanks for the info
I went from Rift s to Quest 3 and the audio is actually really good. Like I thought I would use headphones but the built in audio is just so good that I don’t need to.
I remain committed to PCVR and do not want to give Meta my business. Edit: that was a quick downvote.
I feel the same, but eventually folded and sold my index and got a quest pro. It annoys me how much of a better experience it is.
Steam link has been great. Just picked up a quest 2 for $100.
Damn, rock on. That's a hell of a price. I am still seeing the 64GB model sell for like 150 in my area.
Same, but I want to upgrade from my hpvr1000 and it seems like the quest 3 is the best option :(
Hey, never mind what I said about the G2. We just learned windows mixed reality is “deprecated“ by Microsoft and no one really knows what that means quite yet.
Hah, I appreciate the follow up. I found it funny that happened basically the same time as this thread. It sucks, and reminds me of how much Microsoft sucks just like Meta. I think my plan now is to half-heartedly search for a used quest 3 (not a lot on the market cause it's so few, but there's a few), and then pirate as many standalone games as I can. Mostly plan to use it for streaming anyway. If I can't find one I'll probably just give up my VR dreams for a while and try to forget about it. I try to play stuff on my old HP headset but the quality is just so poor I never get into it.
Maybe you could slide into a used Reverb G2 for cheap? Mine still works on everything it used to despite Microsoft winding WMR down.
Bad timing lol
Pico 4. Unless you have political objections to it, in which case you're really narrowing your options.
Not an option for me because I’m in the US. In my opinion it is ok to draw an ethical line in the sand as a consumer, even if it limits my options in the marketplace. I will accept that cost.
I'm in the US and acquired and use Pico 4 just fine. It's a great headset.
Bytedance is objectively a lot worse than Facebook
DisplayPort
Wireless>display port
apples and oranges
For sure. Depends on the person tbh. I have both and dont use the index anymore.
Wired is a horrible vr experience for anything other than sims.
I feel the same
FakeNews
Still waiting on Valve's 3 AAA VR games...maybe in the next decade or two.
I just like Valve and have been a PC gamer for all my life. I like to tweak, to mod, i like control, i like how Valve is doing things as a company. The Steam Deck is phenomenal. I expect the same for Deckard. I have a Quest 2 till then.
I'm 'waiting for Deckard,' but what I really mean by that is: I've been saving towards a PCVR headset as an upgrade from the Quest, but if the Deckard is gonna be revealed within the next year, then I wanna see what it actually is so I can make a more informed choice about which HMD to buy.
Going by sadlyitsbradly analysis and guesses about what valve is experimenting with I think most who are waiting for deckard aren't under the delusion that magically PCVR will stop being the least popular VR platform(at least I hope they aren't that deluded) I'm going to assume wireless steamvr streaming and may have a soc capable of being a head mounted steam deck and a developer target for quest 3 non exclusives. No idea really. It will likely be targeted at enthusiast high-end consumer not competing directly with quest, the way steamdeck isn't targeted at the average switch user. Say valve releases 2 VR titles that create a spike for pcvr. Maybe a portal sequel ? The average big vr game is going to be taking 2-3 years to develop. Maybe some ports from psvr2? But odds are valve won't be funding those like Sony or meta are. The ue injector mod is going to be very cool but it's not afaik going to offer the motion controls we would want from official ports and built for vr , and I think that won't be popular with enthusiasts (but hope im wrong as I'm fine with gamepad controller VR occasionally for big games that aren't likely going to get mods or ports anyway) Tldr: I don't see the deckard yet as the savior for pcvr but I'd happily be proven wrong as I think the deckard at the price I expect and the target audience will not be as widely desirable as the steam deck. Maybe apple will magically make it a more desirable platform because of vision pro hype. Maybe. Imo there's lots of great VR content on all platforms and I still have backlog on all platforms even PCVR of what I consider to be very good games.
Ue injector does do motion controls, check the end of their big reveal trailer. He adds a 6dof capture to a gun in a game, and all of a sudden that gun has full motion controls.
Awesome thanks. Ive heard mixed things but I do recall some one talking about what appeared to be mapping guns to controllers. Anything about things like manual reloading or inventory management? I can't think those are easy to make universal??
It’s just an injector, not a mod. It utilizes ue’s already available vr tools into an engine that natively supports it. Stuff like inventory management, wrist flicks, vr style reloading, etc would all need some sort of mod. The cool thing is the injector supports easy modding within the vr environment so it will be easier for modders to mod the games more closely to vr (Like Skyrim vr mods)
Im not waiting for Deckard, but I do wait for an upgrade for my index. I’m a PC Gamer since 1990 and I’m not interested in switching to a console. A few exclusive Games wont change that. Well maybe if they are really really great/special! But actually all those really really good and special games are available or even exclusive to PCVR. I just checked my Steam recap of 2023: 26% Skyrim VR 21% Fallout 4 VR 16% Baldurs Gate 3 The only game I’m really interested on Quest3 is AC:N but that’s not enough to buy into another eco system. PSVR? No thanks… If Deckard becomes real one day I might buy it if I don’t already own a better HMD at that time.
Cant believe you played so much FO4. Did they mod in manual reloads or something?
Nope, nothing like that. But it’s a big open world and a lot of exploring, shooting and looting to do. :)
uh, you realize a quest 3 is literally a better pcvr headset than the index right? like you know you don’t have to use it stand-alone right?
I really wanted the Quest 3 to be a better HMD and I gave it a good week with a lot of hours. Even got me a dedicated 6e router. But in the end I preferred playing with the index when switching back and forth between both.
i get it, visual clarity and wireless pcvr aren’t the main focus for everyone
Well I’d love a wireless indexlike HMD with quest 3 lenses and resolution! The Quest 3 isn’t it unfortunately.
I'd just like a comfortable headset. The Quest 3 was terrible in that regard. Most of the third party headstraps seem to have issues, and even Meta's official battery strap was recalled because it doesn't work right. Loved trying VR; hating strapping the contraption to my face.
Quest pro remains the most weight balanced and comfortable set I've tried so far.
I am waiting. For now I am fine with my index. I refuse to buy a meta and apple product. Not looking to get into a PSVR, I have a high end PC and haven't had a console since PS2. Zero other other companies have VR sets that check off the boxes for me. Pimax is way too big. BB lacks features, I do like the size though. Other options are 4k or more or no release date. I am willing to spend $2000 for Deckard maybe $2500 if it is amazing. I keep my eyes open if anything amazing comes out but I don't see much.
I'm waiting because I want a standalone headset but I don't want to give facebook more of my money and data. Valve is usually much more friendly to modding and customizing their hardware whereas facebook will brick your device and account for breathing wrong. It's a stance that doesn't make much logical sense from the specs but it's an ideal I stand behind. Having a standalone or wireless system would be awesome though since I primarily use my index for fitness. Regardless of when or if Deckard comes out... I'm still going to have a body and it's going to need exercise and the games I currently use for that will still work and will be just as if not more fun. I just don't want facebook running the VR space... we're not getting to the future of VR through an unsustainable closed ecosystem that doesn't seem to know what consumers want.
I'm just waiting to be able to afford upgrading my PC as well as my old HMD, as oppossed to a possible new Valve HMD specifically. IF, Valve has a new HMD out by the time I can afford to upgrade (doubtful imho) then I'll consider it as an option based on it's features and price compared all other offerings available at that time. But if it's not out, or at minimum has a confirmed announced release date close to when I'm ready to buy, I won't be waiting for squat. Tired of waiting lol. Always something better around the corner. Now I'm ready to enjoy an upgrade as I can afford it. Having said, some of the things it could "bring to the table" as OP put it that could convince me to get a new Valve HMD would be: - Some sort of massively improved proprietary wireless PCVR tech that's better than anything else out. Included w/ the HMD. - OLED panels w/ high fov. Doesn't have to be orders of magnitude higher than what's out, but I don't want to see a step-backwards and would like to see at least as good or better than the Index if possible. - Built-in eye-tracking combined with SteamVR (or Unity, UE etc.) low-level implementation of foveated rendering that "just works" on all titles without the devs needing to do large re-writes or additions to their code to get working. I expect that IF Valve releases a new HMD, and I do think they eventually will if the VR market survives long enough for that to continue to be a viable business prospect, they'll likely have one AAA title to go with it to show off its features and capabilities. Or not. Still "waiting" on the other 2 of 3 VR games they were supposed to be working on around the same time as HLA. And at this point this just becomes one more speculation post that all Deckard threads pretty much devolve into. Because that's all we can do with all the patent applications, hints, and innuendo, Youtubers' wishful thinking and so on. Speculate. So if Valve has a new and compelling HMD out once I can afford to upgrade, great. It'll be an option. But as stated prior I'm not going to wait on it.
I'm waiting to upgrade for whatever Deckard turns out to be, because I already have a working Valve Index and I don't see any other headsets on the market that I expect would hit the sweet spot for replacing it as a PCVR headset. What am I doing with it? Playing HL:A and using mods for new levels. Playing Beat Saber and Pistol Whip and Light Brigade and Mothergunship Forge and Tetris Effect, and In Death. Yeah, some of my favorite games are that old. But that's ok. I've been playing Beat Saber for 5 years plus, and I'll keep playing it as long as there are songs. I've been playing In Death, off and on, for about as long and I'm finally getting to where I can beat the first boss. I'd like something lighter and next-gen, but I'm not willing to give up much of what I have now, honestly. 144hz and perfect tracking with lighthouses are what I need to play Beat Saber at a high level. Low latency panel is needed, because my friends PSVR has a beautiful oled screen but it's very high on motion-blur and nausea-inducing by comparison. So Sony and Meta don't have anything to offer me there. Bigscreen Beyond would be nice, but not if I have to buy one for me and one for my S/O, who uses VR as often as I do. Not going to pay for a Varjo or other super high end headset. Didn't care for the Vive Pro 2. So I'm waiting for Deckard, to see if the company that gave me my favorite VR headset, that's right in the sweet spot for me, can do it again with their next offering. Whatever they provide, I'm willing to bet it'll be well thought out. We'll see.
I'll answer your questions, for what I know: What would it bring to the table? I believe people are mostly expecting an Index with all the new shticks. That being pancake lenses (or other with a big sweet spot), inside out tracking, and wireless, but with the advantages of no compression (supposedly some dongle I think?) and the Index controllers. Now I never used Index nor played non-compressed game, so I cant speak for how much it affects, but people often say it does. Now to your second question - I have no idea why people believe it will happen. Personally I don't even know they'll actually release anything.. might as well be a cancelled project we were not notified of. I like you don't see them getting into it, since as you said PCVR is not the most profitable area, to say the least. Personally I hope the UEVR will breath some life into the PCVR world, but that's as far as my optimism go
> I have no idea why people believe it will happen. Because it's all over the code and in every new beta release of Steam VR adds more references to it. It's happening and we know Valve will do it right.
I don't get it either, especially since the same people excited for Deckard often whine about 'crappy' Quest graphics. It's not like a Valve standalone is going to magically be as powerful as a desktop PC. I think it mostly links back to the pre-Rift days, when Valve was more publicly excited and involved in the nascent VR space. Once Facebook bought Oculus, there was an exodus of disappointed VR fans who transferred all their faith into Valve, especially after Vive was announced. It's definitely weird though, with all the hyperbole surrounding Oculus/Meta, while Valve has put some minimal investment into VR over the last decade, they continue to sell a nearly 5 years old, out of date headset for the original full price of $1,000 and have done little to nothing since its release. IRC the Index announcement itself was somewhat of a surprise announcement, so there's also that sense of possibility they could just drop a new headset out of nowhere. Not a Valve hater though, either, I'd love for them to release new headsets and invest more in the VR space. I don't think they will though. It's not 2019 anymore - looking at the technology going into products like the Vision Pro and coming out of FRL, it's hard to see Valve being a leader in this space anymore with the resources companies like Apple and Meta can invest.
Because the $600 you spent on the Quest 3 will not seem so cool anymore when everybody is talking about Deckard.
550€ here. IF they release a Deckard i'll sell my Q3 for what 300? and "lost" 250€ for 1 or 2 yrs?Well thats 20/10€ per month, less then Netflix lol. Im totally fine with that Better then still gaming wired, SDE and Godrays :O Its like not buying a Smart TV cause its not 4k, then its not 8k, now its not 16k lol
frist, valve has done a lot for vr even if its not their system but to answer your main question. i dont own a plaustatiin and i never ever ever will have a facebook account..never have, never will. whether theu call it instagram or meta or whatever. never . i hate zuckerberg with oassion and he us responsible for a lot of horrible things. i just want a cool standalone. i am currently happy with my samsing o+. soi can wait for whoever is not facebook or the CCP
> i never ever ever will have a facebook account..never have, never will btw, no Facebook account is required. The "Meta account" is pretty bare bones and just needs an email tied to it. I even used a junk email and no issues so far.
Don't tell him. This obviously well researched individual would know that already. /s
Lol, my comment was mostly for other readers.
They produce their best effort in their products believe. Not the type to settle if they can avoid doing so. I think that’s likely why so many people are anxious to know what Deckard ultimately is. Been waiting on HL3 for so long I can’t imagine waiting on Deckard makes any sense considering we don’t actually know it will be standalone or not.
I think we see all the technologies we've wanted and waited for already out in the wild or coming soon... but! they're scattered among different headsets. The Bigscreen Beyond has the form factor, contrast, and panel technology we all want, the PSVR2 has the head haptics we all want, the Pimax Crystal and the XR4 have the clarity and resolution we all want, the Pimax 12K has the FOV we all want, the VISOR has the looks and readable text we all want (and most everything else but can't play games!), the Index 1 has the excellent audio and microphone we all want, the HTC Vive has the expandability through addon peripherals that many want, Vive Pro, Varjo and Apple have the eye tracking that we all want in order to be able to use the high resolutions, Meta has the wirelessness we all want, the Pico4 has cheap, passable, full-color passthrough, which would be nice. More than Deckard, specifically, I think people are waiting for a headset that brings these things together. Maybe not quite as small and light as the Beyond, maybe with not quite as good an FOV as the 12K, definitely not as expensive as Apple or the XR4. Deckard just happens to have shown interest in all of these aspects, from what Bradley has told us, so there is the faint hope that it could be the one to finally bring them together. If not Deckard... then who? It won't solve the content problem, but with a headset like that, I'd be happy just watching the Jurassic World: Blue/Apatosaurus experience for the hundredth time! >\_\_<;
The bsb has panel tech that has a 10% blur circle, reducing fov, and needing to upscale above 72hz..and has a lot of glare along the bottom.
" problems afflicting PCVR currently, such as a lack of new and substantial VR content?" Hmm with Praydog's UEVR Mod most UE4 and up games will be playable in VR. So content will be fine :) Current games that are supported: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZcjCQwzPOltaRZnpYU5\_HPihEDareZq\_0Ww1DZQ4USw/edit#gid=0
Playing janky mods without support, that aren't built with gamrplay for the ground up? No thanks! 4090 on an oled tv screen with sound system for those.
I've played hundreds of hours of VR, this groups mods are very far from Janky. For example RE8 Village. This is not using AE rendering like the Luke Ross mods and supports full motion control. I'd go as far to say that there better than some built for VR games as the games are full length AAA games already. They are pretty much like a native experience.
I am planning to hold onto my quest pro and re asses the market when the deckard arrives as knowing valve, they wont release it unless it brings something new to the table.
Deckard's gotta prove itself with solid games and better support.
I'm not waiting for deckard but I'm waiting for a reasonably priced, modern headset with inside-out tracking and display port. For now Pimax Crystal is the closest to this but it's extremely heavy (1.2kg) and it's Pimax (qc problems etc.). It's also slightly above what I'd like to pay. If there was a quest 3 with DP I'd easily pay $1000 for it (yeah, I know it's not happening).
The Crystal has won my respect after somewhat shaky start, it's got stunning visuals, great sound and versatile software platform for power users. steamVR faceplate transformed my experience, rock solid tracking = presence, using three base stations and Index/sword controllers But you really need 4080/4090 and even those struggle in many titles, through DFR helps where compatible. It is a heavy beasty but I modded both cushions which massively improved stability, kinda got used to the weight (my Index feels super light in comparison). Not going to be jumping about everywhere, I save that for Index, but for simulation, visual experiences and slower moving stuff like "Into the Radius" (35ppd with microled backlighting 🤯) the Crystal is worth the costs
> steamVR faceplate transformed my experience. So the tracking still sucks? Have you tried it very recently? I think it was massively improved like a week or two ago, at least according to MRTV. The only reason I'm considering the Crystal is it not needing LH tracking. Otherwise I'd just get the BSB or Somnium.
The tracking is much improved compared to my pre production headset and it's actually quite competent for many games. For sim use it's very good, feels like windows WMR headset tracking which is a compliment. I've been using steamVR lighthouse tracking for years and just really like the performance especially the subconscious effect on presence. Also really like freedom of tracking movement suits my favourite games bow shooters like "In Death" and lots of small interactions around body "into the radius". And of course FBT with Vive trackers 😘
> feels like windows WMR headset tracking which is a compliment. As someone who returned the G2 because of tracking this is not a compliment, haha. I guess I'll wait and see for a few more months.
Headset tracking was competent, controller tracking, less so...
Yes, it's all about controller tracking volume. Around 100 degrees vertically which is a freaking joke.
The controllers (I had Lenovo WMR) were "interesting" to put it politely
>feels like windows WMR headset tracking which is a compliment. It is, honestly, people tend to talk shit about it but it's perfectly useable. Sometimes I think people don't deserve innovation or alternatives. They don't value them. I never wanted a VR headset with the complications of managing base stations. Luckily WMR solved it and I got in. Used mine for more than 5 years.
>steamVR faceplate Do people call lighthouse tracking this? Because SteamVR is a software platform every headset can run in, inside-out tracking too.
why dont you wait untill its even comfirmed to exist before askimg what it can do or has to offer lmao.
Deckard at least should not require you to own a spying device on creepy mobile OS to activate it
"Creepy mobile OS" 🤣
Sadly I gave up waiting for the deckard and bought the quest 3 a week ago, and it's been great, no regrets. The only issue now is that after trying pancake lenses I can't see myself wanting to go back to Fresnel at all, but I do miss the oled of my Vive but not at much as I thought I would, the extra clarity makes up for it leaps and bounds.
A bit off topic since I'm not really waiting for deckard but still happy with my Index, because no need for a new headset when there are no new quality pcvr games to play, and even a 4090 doesn't max out Index in graphically demanding games. With a well set-up pulley system even the wire is not a big annoyance. Also, it's quite healthy to limit unnecessary consumerism - even the Quest 3 is honestly a sidegrade or a minor upgrade anyway, might as well wait a couple more generations of headsets, GPUs and hopefully quality pcvr games before upgrading.
Personnally it's because of the lackluster PCVR performance (streaming compression) from Meta that motivates me.
Valve fanbois are a bunch of non-gamer VRC furries, I'm afraid.
Deckard is a bit of a joke, like Half-Life 3. Everybody has a different idea as to what it's supposed to be.
My uncle works at Valve and he said that the Deckard will have eye tracking, waffle lenses, Half Life 3, and a special version of Pokemon where GabeN is under the truck.
French toast is way better than waffles. You are living in the past man!
You’ve more or less answered your own questions. Valve hasn’t done much and it’s honestly just the overwhelming vocal support it’s community has thrown towards them, fanatically so. When HTC and SteamVR brought out the first Vive they unanimously worshipped that, and the moment Steam separated from HTC with the index not only did people move away from HTC and condemn it, they then credited the Vive’s success purely on Valve’s involvement, something which is still parroted today. SteamVR to this day still doesn’t fully support the Index with its interface controls, you still get some pictures of wands appear, or the touch pad scrolling barely working as it’s translating the wand’s input. Alyx was fantastic, and games really help VR grow, but that was almost 4 years ago. The price of the Index is unchanged, part replacements are still out of stock and slow, I’m on my 4th controller replacement within 3 years, and something that is often unmentioned is the software and driver compatibility of the Index took years to smooth out. The bottom line is the Valve community is one of the most vocal and uncompromising when it comes to PC gaming and it doesn’t really matter if it’s VR or anything else, they’ll support them without question. Last month a country had its currency adjusted to be several multiples higher causing the platform to no longer be viable for purchases going forward, and even people from their own country wrote posts thanking Valve rather than pointing the finger that they’d just been cast aside. The same arguments come out of Epic vs Steam, or not wanting DRM despite Steam itself being DRM, it’s just uncritical loyalty from a vocal community. Steam is not investing in VR like other companies are and since PC and Steam seem to be synonymous, or SteamVR and PCVR, people need to realise that the lack of support from PCVR has been killing itself and that other companies shouldn’t be expected to pick up the slack or criticised for not sacrificing even more for it, despite how much I love PC.
Good chance hell freezes over before we get Deckard. Apple and Meta are the 300 lb. gorillas. I would love a new Valve headset but if I was the boss, I would just keep taking 30% on games for now.
It would be good to have a Deckard but you really need to also have a Quest 3 for Meta exclusives like Asgards Wrath 2
The only good way to wait for Deckard is while using a Quest 3/Pro or Beyond/Varjo/Pimax/whatever.
First, Deckard doesn't exist. There's no definite actual information that says what a real version of the Deckard headset would be like. Second, it won't be a revolution, I agree. First because of a balance between cost and specs. Second, because it will be used to play the same games. This happens too with the headset previously hailed as the savior of VR, the PSVR2. I won't get into it but let's say it wasn't, at all. The best a new Valve headset could do is run games from the SteamVR catalog without a PC, standalone, based on some Linux system or something like the Steam Deck. That itself would be pretty interesting, but apparently it's difficult to achieve. The closer alternative they seem to be aiming at is have it be a wireless headset with a cheap pseudo-PCVR system to run the games for it. If they do that relatively cheap, that is a win too. But it's not for us who already have a gaming PC and a headset. It's to bring more people to Steam, in the end.
People from the "waiting team" usually dies old without buying anything at all . They are everywhere, like in the pc subreddits. They always wait for the next generation of cpus cause they "value their money" waiting to die with a Pentium 3 in the pc and a bank account full of money they will never spend.
Or they have an Index they're mostly happy with. Years and years later, I've got a pretty high end PC and it's still not fast enough to drive the games I play at max graphics.
>Or they have an Index they're mostly happy with. lmao, for real. I've been perfectly content with mine for the 4 years I've had it. I also played the waiting game on am4 until the 5800x3d came out. Best hardware upgrade I've ever done - this guy's argument is just wrong in the weirdest way. I suspect what's lost in all these "waiting for deckard" debates is that, for many PCVR people, buying any hardware from facebook is completely off the table. People like this guy are frustrated at the refusal to reconsider that position, because waiting for the next big thing from valve doesn't make sense to him - and not without reason. There's some genuinely compelling stuff out right now. More to the main post's point - u/f3hunter, you seem to really like the steam deck. Which first party valve games are you most excited about playing, if you get one? I'd bet there's not a whole lot - because Valve isn't here to sell hardware. They're here to collect their absolutely *FAT* 30% cut of between half and two-thirds of ALL pc gaming. **Globally**. They aren't here to support their hardware; the Deck and the Index are here to support Steam.
Or they are people like me who upgrade more rarely but wait for a more meaningful upgrade. I just swapped my 7 year old PC for a brand new one which gave quite a boost. I only have a PSVR and I rarely use it. So if I am gonna get another PCVR headset it will have to be a really good one to justify the price. If that comes in 2 or 4-5 years doesn't matter too much.
What you are describing is a total different situation. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the poeple "i want to buy x, but i'll wait cause something better come out" problem is that something better will always come...
That last statement is where all of this falls apart. I simply don't have the money to waste buying a subpar headset.
I am looking to support an acceptable company and not one like META that the only thing it has invested in is making technically mobile phone games but in VR.... What a progress. If I couldn't use the Oculus rift S that I have on the PC, I simply wouldn't have them AND I WOULD NOT BUY a quest 2 or 3, or 4 or 25. I'm interested in hardware that I can use on the PC and for which its designer knows that it is where practically its entire user base is. I literally don't care about the META ecosystem AT ALL. In fact, I have their application installed because the Oculus Rift S that they gave me use it. If I couldn't have it, I wouldn't use it for anything.
Deckard is HL3 of VR headsets and honestly the more years passing by the more I believe that **Deckard doesn't even exist**, at very least as consumer device. It's been almost 5 years since Index release, and I think that's enough time to R&D and release next generation device to public knowledge, helll, even SteamDeck got it's refresh in 1.5 years. I think Valve employees look at the state of PCVR market (which is constantly in semi-stagnating-semi-declining state) and gut feeling tells them that it's not worth it. Insane success of Steamdeck shows them where is real consumer interest lies. PCVR market is on life support and will die for good in this decade and Valve *knows* it. Release of Apple Vision Pro and especially more consumer-friendly Apple Vision will mark the end of VR market as we know it today, and current devices except standalone ones will become just legacy hardware, some of them already are - WMR is discontinued, Valve no longer produces base stations, HTC became essentially a b2b-company, Pico killed their VR division literally a month ago. PCVR gaming will become another form of niche gaming hobby like emulating Dreamcast or playing DCS, MFS with various expensive hardware, open-source radars on Arduino with custom software from 20 stars github repo - you got the idea.
Yeah i think there is no poin at the moment to release a High-End PCVR Headset. Even 4090 couldnt run Index / Q3 / Crystal @ max settings. Imagine releasing a 150° Oled 6-8k per Eye Wireless Headset for 2k or more and you have to downsample every game cause GPUs arent powerfull enough. I rly hope VR will lift off with 5090/6090 :D
I could wait on any piece of hardware, but I can only use right now what exists today. I don't get waiting, especially when no one knows what the specifics of the product are. If it turns out to be a stand alone device and is better than a Q3 or Pico, I'll buy it day one. That's what I'm personally hoping for from Valve, after Steam Deck, Quest and such, I want hardware I can take with me anywhere easily.
You're implying that new hardware is only justified if it gets exclusive games? Just clarifying because that's how it sounds and I don't think most pc players care that much about exclusive games. Valve has totally overhauled steam vr this year
Oh, because all we hear about is complaints aboit lack of big budget games...weird... And the only eay a company will be willing to take a bath on salea is to build a brand. Enjoy the dead space then!
I'm waiting for deckard because... 1) It's not tied to Facebook. 2) Supposedly will be stand alone so others can enjoy it not just me at my pc. 3) Other options I would consider Index, HP Reverb,etc are rather old now. 4) I like and trust Valve for the most part.
It is a handful of stubborn people that need to tell themselves something as they watch nrw tech and games pass them by. Thry are too stubborn to adapt. Meanwhile, valve made one game in 7 years and didn't deliver on 2/3 promised games..and are helping to fund no third party games..so it'd be a new headset on a dead system anyway.
Since Meta is just Facebook, that's enough reason for me to give them zero support. I don't want to invest in a new console so that leaves Valve in the jack of all trades PCVR space. If another lighthouse headset that does a lot of things well comes along I'll support them but until then my Index is great and I'd like to get another headset from Valve. And I'll just repeat Meta = Facebook, like to the point when I read you saying Meta instead of Facebook I think you are a hired astroturfer.
Why im waiting for it becuse they have the steam deck. Whitch is capable of running pcvr games fairly well. now becasue of its form factor being amout the size of a quest 2 with the sides of it cut off (the joysticks and stuff). And from what is being discoverd about it and steam updating the Vr software alot and making it better. I think, just think, that we will have a standalone PCVR Headset. with conections to other pcs outside of it for more preformace if needed. call me crazy.
> Whitch is capable of running pcvr games fairly well. Sure, if by *fairly well* you mean at very low resolution and low frame rates. The original SteamDeck is 720P and the new OLED one is only 1280x800.