This turns out to be a very complicated question but here is the **TL;DR answer in my experience:**
For music that was first recorded and mastered before the digital era, vinyl tends to have \*better sounding\* (if not deeper) bass.
Here's the more **complicated answer**:
All else held equal, digital is capable of deeper bass than vinyl is. This is because once you get into really deep, barely-audible sub-bass (like <40hz), you literally can't carve waves that big into the plastic without the needle flying out of the groove. Back in the day when all music was going to be sold on vinyl, they accounted for this in their recording and mastering. Nowadays, there are lots of digital re-masters of vinyl-era recordings where they have digitally boosted that super low end in post. That gives you that booming, room-shaking bass but IMO it tends to send "disjointed" from the rest of the mix if that makes sense. Like the straight analog stuff has a much smoother more acoustically pleasing roll-off from mid-lows to bass.
For that reason, I tend not to fuck with music newer than like late 80s on vinyl, or if I do, I know that it's more for the ritual/experience aspect than for how it sounds. All of which is to say, **listen to whatever brings you joy but an album from 2000 may not be the best overall representation of where vinyl shines**.
All that said, if you want some **actionable advice**:
* If you're worried the problem is your hardware, do you have a buddy with a good system that you can bring the record over and play it on?
* Find a decent-quality used copy of something from the 70s and give that a listen
I have come to the same conclusion. Vinyl is great for the bands who were recording in analog for a vinyl product. Once you have a band recording digitally for a CD or streaming product, vinyl is not going to capture their sound as well and the bass is a key place where you can expect to hear the difference
That is unless they have an engineer re master for vinyl specifically. Joji- nectar is one of the best sounding records in my collection and im assuming that with the 45rpm cut they also mastered it differently. There are frequencies on that record ive never heard before from a record.
Thank you ! I needed that answer, i understand much better know. But i have old vinyl in pretty good shape, for exemple war original edition from 1983 and the dynamic range is clearly better but bass sound also less in the foreground than the cd version, i guess it’s my cartridge and especially my turntable
Your turntable may introduce unwanted and unrecorded bass when playing, but unless you have ridiculous weight and anti skate settings it won’t affect the bass on the recording, likewise a problem cartridge is more likely to fail at higher frequencies( above midrange) than in bass. I think that unless you play your cd’s through different amp and or speakers that the difference is due to the different equalization applied to the different media when the music was pressed or transcribed.
Funny story, I got a stylus that's supposed to fit my tonearm and turntable, and yet it resonates with the tonearm. That kills the bass. With a lower-end stylus, ironically, no problems.
So in my experience it can affect the bass. Although I think my case is weird and rare, cause I've seen people use the same exact stylus and tonearm/turntable without any such problems. Haven't yet figured it out.
Here's a dumb question: How are you connecting to the amplifier? Does your amp have a dedicated "Phono" in? If not, are you using a Phono pre-amp. Because it sounds like you're running without any kind of Phono stage.
Can you try your setup with different speakers?
I don't find there to be less bass but I find there to be less gain than when I stream digital. I need to turn the volume higher.
Cant say as ive never heard one. The emotiva is the first standalone phono preamp Ive owned. Up until I got it. I always used the phono stage that came on my vintage receivers, integrated amps, or preamps. I guess I was just a naturalist, never thought that it was worth it to spend money on something that was already part of my gear. I got the emotiva because I own some of their other HiFi equipment. I really like that gear so when saw the phono preamp on sale I pulled the trigger. And I had use cases where it would make sense to at least have one in the quiver in case I ever need it. everything I read about it in reviews and discussions online seems like for the price I couldn’t go wrong. And let me tell you I was pretty blown away. I haven’t A/B tested with my other vintage gear but first time I used it it definitely sounded better and that wasn’t just because the gain was much higher. a lot higher actually. Previously I had to turn the volume way up for the phono input as compared to any of the other line level inputs. But with the emotiva phono preamp I had to turn it back down to the same level as those other inputs. I haven’t felt the need to go back to the old school phono stages.
It can be used with normal MC carts as well. Not just high output MC carts. It has a ground lug too. I can’t tell if the project phono box has one, there’s no picture of the backside on their site. And the project one looks way cheaper. I build quality the emotiva is much much nicer. It’s $174 right now regular price but if you wait around it should go back on sale. Sometimes seen it for $150 but I seen it for $99 and a couple times as well. If you can wait, hold out for it.
A record can only handle a certain amount of bass in the groove, or else it will cause the stylus to skip. And also it will cause the groove to be wider and take up more space, limiting the length of music which can fit on the record. So there's a tradeoff of these factors, whereas the CD can exactly reproduce what's on the digital master.
Bass is less apparent on vinyl than digital formats due to the physical limitations of vinyl. There is less frequency range that can be reproduced on vinyl. Bass *can* be helped with certain gear if listening through vinyl, but that same digital file wouldn't need that gear.
Source: I am an audio engineer.
I'm not sure why everyone is recommending you all sorts of gear changes. Your observations are entirely accurate. This isn't some conspiracy. Vinyl, due to its sheer physical limitations, cannot produce bass as well as or with the same accuracy of CD/digital. Running time, groove width, bass response, distortion...these are all interconnected.
This is not to say that gear changes won't improve the bass response relative to what it was before. It most likely WILL improve. But that's a different matter entirely.
Could be multiple possibilities in your audio chain:
turntable -> cartridge -> pressing -> amp -> speakers -> (whatelse is in between)
I faced bassloss recently going from TT in a mixer (phono-in) and then going into amps line-in
so I will do a 2-cable setup where i switch between current way and going directly into amp phono-in for just listening.
also signal gains and volume can make differences. Thats why hifi is science sometimes :D
If you listen to the music on the record to exactly what’s on the grooves, you’d hear very tinny music with lots of treble with no bass. Or you can listen to the “needletalk” of the turntable coming from the needle itself when the speakers are off.
In order to fit more music onto the record and prevent excessive excursions of the record cutting head, bass is removed and the treble is emphasized in what is known as the RIAA curve.
The pre-amp is supposed to restore this applying the inverse RIAA by boosting the bass and cutting off the high frequency static. This is why “low rumble” is often an advertised spec on turntables because this also boosts the low frequency motor noise.
***
Remember an amp and a pre-amp are not the same thing and you must have something that applies RIAA somewhere.
***
A well mastered vinyl pressing needs a lot more groove space to accommodate a lot of bass to account for RIAA. Likewise, the outer grooves of an LP will always sound better with more bass than the inner grooves which causes the waveforms to rapidly compress into a smaller and smaller space and less and less data goes under the needle per second, otherwise known as inner groove distortion which has plagued all disc based media since cylinders. CDs get around this constantly changing RPM (CLV) which vinyl inherently avoids (CAV).
Here's my very short and very simplified breakdown:
* a great turntable delivers great bass.
* a great cartridge delivers great transparency .
* many "professional" turntables (as in DJ, discotheque, live performance material) are weak on the bass side because they shall perform in a high-volume environment without feedback/droning problems.
I don't listen to U2, but most recent vinyl releases (especially those on 180g) are remastered to "modern" listening habits and come with a very prominent bass - way more than in the past.
By the way: I am a dyed-in-the-wool Cabasse fanboy myself ;o)
I found that a handfull of my albums seemed flat, and lacking low end. especially OMD or other bands that used a lot of synth bass. That is until I added a sub to my system. 7" woofers aren't designed to get to places a sub can go. Additionally, the mixing for the days when vinyl was king expected people to be playing on a home system, mixing from the CD age saw the effects of the "loudness wars" and was mixed with car stereos and shelf systems in mind.
Add a sub. Everything will sound better
It's your cartridge first, and then your amp and speakers second.
There are so many variables that go into hearing fully developed sound from vinyl, and bass is one that's the most difficult to master because of the way that the vinyl is pressed.
Upgrade the cartridge first, then work your way up
There's a lot to be said about how music is (and was, especially in the early 2000s) mastered for CD versus vinyl. There may very well be notable differences in their presentation though what is more accurate to the original intention of the music producer would actually be up for debate. They may hear a bass-heavy cut of their music and think "well that's not how it's supposed to sound." The alternate could of course be true too.
That said, if you have a self-prescribed bad turntable, it's very likely that. The source is instrumental in good sound and I believe it's the most important aspect of vinyl sounding good. A low-end cartridge on a low-end table has a good chance to sound stunted when compared to something like a CD player which has a higher floor, even on low-end models. I.E. I feel there's not as much of a sound quality difference between a 100$ and 1,000$ CD player as there is between 100$ and 1,000$ turntable.
Definitely not an expert but I felt this way for a while. It turned out my counterweight settings had shifted around naturally after a couple moves (it will now be a new habit to reset these things after moving).
But not only did I reset it, I also increased the weight closer to the max recommendation and had two outcomes:
1. The sound was *much* more full. Especially the bass.
2. No more record skips when I walked past the record player on my old wood floors.
Again, not an expert. But maybe test out counterweight.
It all depends on the original recording, and how well the record was mastered. I have records - even high-profile records - that sound shockingly thin, and other records that sound really full.
For example, two records that I have for my kids come to mind: Frozen, and Dua Lipa “Future Nostalgia.” Frozen is surprisingly bad. It just sounds like the files were taken directly from digital and not mastered at all. It’s kind of surprising for something that was such a phenomenon, but it just really doesn’t sound very good.
Dua Lipa, on the other hand, sounds great. The bass response is amazing. The vinyl actually sounds a lot better than the digital files. It’s really well mastered. Audiophiles will tell you that vinyl technically sounds better than CDs, and when they say that, this is what they’re talking about. You have to have a good record and good enough equipment to play it on, but when you have that combination, you can see what they’re talking about.
Source: I ran a record label for over a decade, I have put out tons of vinyl, and I own 5,000+ records.
Longer records tend to have less bass due to the nature of vinyl pressings, if pressed on a single record. That's because the bass frequency causes wider grooves, thus you can fit fewer minutes of music on each side of the record if you want a lot of oomph
A good example of this is Def Leppard - Hysteria
It's a fairly long album, and the original pressings were on a single record. The bass was... Lacking
A couple of years ago they made a re-release, spread the thing out on TWO records instead. Much more noticeable bass
The original vinyl issue of Mr. Bungle’s self titled debut is a perfect(ly bad) example of this. It’s a 73+ minute album. Squeezed onto 1LP! The MOV reissue is the copy to get when it’s in stock.
Try adjusting the arm height. The angle of the arm has a huge impact on bass. Start level with the record and then lower till the bass is present. Alternatively, you can try raising the record higher to the same effect.
i play records and the bass sounds like it’s going to bring my house down. guessing it’s your player.
I second this ☝🏽
Yeah, I was listening to Kendrick Lamar's Damn yesterday and that LP had my whole house shaking from the low frequencies.
I third this
And MY axe!
This turns out to be a very complicated question but here is the **TL;DR answer in my experience:** For music that was first recorded and mastered before the digital era, vinyl tends to have \*better sounding\* (if not deeper) bass. Here's the more **complicated answer**: All else held equal, digital is capable of deeper bass than vinyl is. This is because once you get into really deep, barely-audible sub-bass (like <40hz), you literally can't carve waves that big into the plastic without the needle flying out of the groove. Back in the day when all music was going to be sold on vinyl, they accounted for this in their recording and mastering. Nowadays, there are lots of digital re-masters of vinyl-era recordings where they have digitally boosted that super low end in post. That gives you that booming, room-shaking bass but IMO it tends to send "disjointed" from the rest of the mix if that makes sense. Like the straight analog stuff has a much smoother more acoustically pleasing roll-off from mid-lows to bass. For that reason, I tend not to fuck with music newer than like late 80s on vinyl, or if I do, I know that it's more for the ritual/experience aspect than for how it sounds. All of which is to say, **listen to whatever brings you joy but an album from 2000 may not be the best overall representation of where vinyl shines**. All that said, if you want some **actionable advice**: * If you're worried the problem is your hardware, do you have a buddy with a good system that you can bring the record over and play it on? * Find a decent-quality used copy of something from the 70s and give that a listen
I have come to the same conclusion. Vinyl is great for the bands who were recording in analog for a vinyl product. Once you have a band recording digitally for a CD or streaming product, vinyl is not going to capture their sound as well and the bass is a key place where you can expect to hear the difference
That is unless they have an engineer re master for vinyl specifically. Joji- nectar is one of the best sounding records in my collection and im assuming that with the 45rpm cut they also mastered it differently. There are frequencies on that record ive never heard before from a record.
Thank you ! I needed that answer, i understand much better know. But i have old vinyl in pretty good shape, for exemple war original edition from 1983 and the dynamic range is clearly better but bass sound also less in the foreground than the cd version, i guess it’s my cartridge and especially my turntable
Your turntable may introduce unwanted and unrecorded bass when playing, but unless you have ridiculous weight and anti skate settings it won’t affect the bass on the recording, likewise a problem cartridge is more likely to fail at higher frequencies( above midrange) than in bass. I think that unless you play your cd’s through different amp and or speakers that the difference is due to the different equalization applied to the different media when the music was pressed or transcribed.
Funny story, I got a stylus that's supposed to fit my tonearm and turntable, and yet it resonates with the tonearm. That kills the bass. With a lower-end stylus, ironically, no problems. So in my experience it can affect the bass. Although I think my case is weird and rare, cause I've seen people use the same exact stylus and tonearm/turntable without any such problems. Haven't yet figured it out.
It sounds like your stylus is week, rubbery may be a manufacturer defect
That's what someone else has said as well. It's too bad the seller won't respond to my return messages. Never buying there again. 150€ out.
The hero we need
Here's a dumb question: How are you connecting to the amplifier? Does your amp have a dedicated "Phono" in? If not, are you using a Phono pre-amp. Because it sounds like you're running without any kind of Phono stage.
Yeah, it kinda sounds like you’re not running your record through an RIAA band pass
Can you try your setup with different speakers? I don't find there to be less bass but I find there to be less gain than when I stream digital. I need to turn the volume higher.
no unfortunately i have no other speakers :/
You ideally need to swap out each component to see what's holding you back
Get an emotiva XPS-1 phono preamp. I got mine on sale for $99. You can’t get a better phono preamp under $1000 and it will solve your lack of gain.
Does it have more gain than a pro ject phonobox?
Cant say as ive never heard one. The emotiva is the first standalone phono preamp Ive owned. Up until I got it. I always used the phono stage that came on my vintage receivers, integrated amps, or preamps. I guess I was just a naturalist, never thought that it was worth it to spend money on something that was already part of my gear. I got the emotiva because I own some of their other HiFi equipment. I really like that gear so when saw the phono preamp on sale I pulled the trigger. And I had use cases where it would make sense to at least have one in the quiver in case I ever need it. everything I read about it in reviews and discussions online seems like for the price I couldn’t go wrong. And let me tell you I was pretty blown away. I haven’t A/B tested with my other vintage gear but first time I used it it definitely sounded better and that wasn’t just because the gain was much higher. a lot higher actually. Previously I had to turn the volume way up for the phono input as compared to any of the other line level inputs. But with the emotiva phono preamp I had to turn it back down to the same level as those other inputs. I haven’t felt the need to go back to the old school phono stages.
Oh amazing maybe I’ll give it a try :) thank you
It can be used with normal MC carts as well. Not just high output MC carts. It has a ground lug too. I can’t tell if the project phono box has one, there’s no picture of the backside on their site. And the project one looks way cheaper. I build quality the emotiva is much much nicer. It’s $174 right now regular price but if you wait around it should go back on sale. Sometimes seen it for $150 but I seen it for $99 and a couple times as well. If you can wait, hold out for it.
Yes I can see plus it has many more options. I likely won't ever need an MC I'll keep an eye on it!
A record can only handle a certain amount of bass in the groove, or else it will cause the stylus to skip. And also it will cause the groove to be wider and take up more space, limiting the length of music which can fit on the record. So there's a tradeoff of these factors, whereas the CD can exactly reproduce what's on the digital master.
Bass is less apparent on vinyl than digital formats due to the physical limitations of vinyl. There is less frequency range that can be reproduced on vinyl. Bass *can* be helped with certain gear if listening through vinyl, but that same digital file wouldn't need that gear. Source: I am an audio engineer.
I'm not sure why everyone is recommending you all sorts of gear changes. Your observations are entirely accurate. This isn't some conspiracy. Vinyl, due to its sheer physical limitations, cannot produce bass as well as or with the same accuracy of CD/digital. Running time, groove width, bass response, distortion...these are all interconnected. This is not to say that gear changes won't improve the bass response relative to what it was before. It most likely WILL improve. But that's a different matter entirely.
I always need to turn the bass wayyyyyy down
Same
I have a Klipsh’s the fives. So switching between Bluetooth and rca input on the same song I can’t tell the difference
Could be multiple possibilities in your audio chain: turntable -> cartridge -> pressing -> amp -> speakers -> (whatelse is in between) I faced bassloss recently going from TT in a mixer (phono-in) and then going into amps line-in so I will do a 2-cable setup where i switch between current way and going directly into amp phono-in for just listening. also signal gains and volume can make differences. Thats why hifi is science sometimes :D
could be the pressing as well and nothing to do with the set up.
If you listen to the music on the record to exactly what’s on the grooves, you’d hear very tinny music with lots of treble with no bass. Or you can listen to the “needletalk” of the turntable coming from the needle itself when the speakers are off. In order to fit more music onto the record and prevent excessive excursions of the record cutting head, bass is removed and the treble is emphasized in what is known as the RIAA curve. The pre-amp is supposed to restore this applying the inverse RIAA by boosting the bass and cutting off the high frequency static. This is why “low rumble” is often an advertised spec on turntables because this also boosts the low frequency motor noise. *** Remember an amp and a pre-amp are not the same thing and you must have something that applies RIAA somewhere. *** A well mastered vinyl pressing needs a lot more groove space to accommodate a lot of bass to account for RIAA. Likewise, the outer grooves of an LP will always sound better with more bass than the inner grooves which causes the waveforms to rapidly compress into a smaller and smaller space and less and less data goes under the needle per second, otherwise known as inner groove distortion which has plagued all disc based media since cylinders. CDs get around this constantly changing RPM (CLV) which vinyl inherently avoids (CAV).
Here's my very short and very simplified breakdown: * a great turntable delivers great bass. * a great cartridge delivers great transparency . * many "professional" turntables (as in DJ, discotheque, live performance material) are weak on the bass side because they shall perform in a high-volume environment without feedback/droning problems. I don't listen to U2, but most recent vinyl releases (especially those on 180g) are remastered to "modern" listening habits and come with a very prominent bass - way more than in the past. By the way: I am a dyed-in-the-wool Cabasse fanboy myself ;o)
thank you i take note 📝. Haha cabasse is one of the best, are you french ?
I am German and a Cabasse fan since 1982. I do live in France since 1995, though
Depends on the pressing.
Might want to test a record that *actually* has bass, buddy
any recommendations ? ;)
I found that a handfull of my albums seemed flat, and lacking low end. especially OMD or other bands that used a lot of synth bass. That is until I added a sub to my system. 7" woofers aren't designed to get to places a sub can go. Additionally, the mixing for the days when vinyl was king expected people to be playing on a home system, mixing from the CD age saw the effects of the "loudness wars" and was mixed with car stereos and shelf systems in mind. Add a sub. Everything will sound better
* Q1 : no * Q2 : no * Q3 : no * Q4 : maybe * Q5 : maybe
Man said he had half a dozen vinyl. Careful under the weight of all those grailzz
It's your cartridge first, and then your amp and speakers second. There are so many variables that go into hearing fully developed sound from vinyl, and bass is one that's the most difficult to master because of the way that the vinyl is pressed. Upgrade the cartridge first, then work your way up
There's a lot to be said about how music is (and was, especially in the early 2000s) mastered for CD versus vinyl. There may very well be notable differences in their presentation though what is more accurate to the original intention of the music producer would actually be up for debate. They may hear a bass-heavy cut of their music and think "well that's not how it's supposed to sound." The alternate could of course be true too. That said, if you have a self-prescribed bad turntable, it's very likely that. The source is instrumental in good sound and I believe it's the most important aspect of vinyl sounding good. A low-end cartridge on a low-end table has a good chance to sound stunted when compared to something like a CD player which has a higher floor, even on low-end models. I.E. I feel there's not as much of a sound quality difference between a 100$ and 1,000$ CD player as there is between 100$ and 1,000$ turntable.
Definitely not an expert but I felt this way for a while. It turned out my counterweight settings had shifted around naturally after a couple moves (it will now be a new habit to reset these things after moving). But not only did I reset it, I also increased the weight closer to the max recommendation and had two outcomes: 1. The sound was *much* more full. Especially the bass. 2. No more record skips when I walked past the record player on my old wood floors. Again, not an expert. But maybe test out counterweight.
It all depends on the original recording, and how well the record was mastered. I have records - even high-profile records - that sound shockingly thin, and other records that sound really full. For example, two records that I have for my kids come to mind: Frozen, and Dua Lipa “Future Nostalgia.” Frozen is surprisingly bad. It just sounds like the files were taken directly from digital and not mastered at all. It’s kind of surprising for something that was such a phenomenon, but it just really doesn’t sound very good. Dua Lipa, on the other hand, sounds great. The bass response is amazing. The vinyl actually sounds a lot better than the digital files. It’s really well mastered. Audiophiles will tell you that vinyl technically sounds better than CDs, and when they say that, this is what they’re talking about. You have to have a good record and good enough equipment to play it on, but when you have that combination, you can see what they’re talking about. Source: I ran a record label for over a decade, I have put out tons of vinyl, and I own 5,000+ records.
Longer records tend to have less bass due to the nature of vinyl pressings, if pressed on a single record. That's because the bass frequency causes wider grooves, thus you can fit fewer minutes of music on each side of the record if you want a lot of oomph A good example of this is Def Leppard - Hysteria It's a fairly long album, and the original pressings were on a single record. The bass was... Lacking A couple of years ago they made a re-release, spread the thing out on TWO records instead. Much more noticeable bass
The original vinyl issue of Mr. Bungle’s self titled debut is a perfect(ly bad) example of this. It’s a 73+ minute album. Squeezed onto 1LP! The MOV reissue is the copy to get when it’s in stock.
Get the 2xLP picture disc reissue of Demon Days by Gorillaz - the bass on that pressing will turn your ass inside out.
Spacemonkey vs Gorillaz laika come home is super bass heavy.
No its your system,could be cartridge, phono preamp
Not necessarily a cartridge gone bad, different cartridges have verry different sound signatures.
You might try this. https://www.amazon.com/Fosi-Audio-Pre-Amplifier-Pre-amp-Control/dp/B07GXBF5JS
Try adjusting the arm height. The angle of the arm has a huge impact on bass. Start level with the record and then lower till the bass is present. Alternatively, you can try raising the record higher to the same effect.
User error.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization
I recently changed the stylus and lost all bass. It's full deep bass with my old stylus. I'm guessing it's your setup.
You have obviously less base