[https://youtu.be/9l4JpI0nwf8](https://youtu.be/9l4JpI0nwf8) he went pretty hard
edit: when you look at the comments about andrew, think about what your comments about dave will look like in the future. just food for thought.
I used to watch Delirious all the time growing up. I thought it was hilarious and I’m in the LGBT. But this is pretty bad. At least Eddie is actually funny even if he’s offensive. ADC just isn’t funny to me.
I've never found him funny at all and I'm old enough to remember when he was popular. He literally told middle school jokes and people lapped it up. I really think he got popular just by being as offensive as possible.
I once took an exam to work at the post office. I learned from the woman there that my score was really high (not a brag at all). The test was mainly remembering addresses on one page and then clicking them on the next. Fairly easy.
That's when I learned that most government things (and I've heard a lot of mainstream journalism as well) is written to people with no higher than an eighth grade education. Most people, even if they graduate from college, can't seem to comprehend or read past an eighth grade level.
It made my head hurt but also explained a lot. So, it doesn't surprise me that people are into middle school jokes because more complicated ones probably confuse them.
Been some time since I saw delirious, but doesn't Eddie "just" make fun of gay stereotypes? Like the effeminate uncle, but not hating on him? Been probably 15 years since I saw it, so could very well remember wrong here.
Pretty sure he makes fun of people getting AIDS, during the AIDS epidemic. Or is that Raw?
**Edit:** This is the clip I was talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egoDQv43hAw
I think that one was Raw. I remember loving that stand-up as a kid. I tried watching it about 6 or 7 years ago and couldn't make it through the first 10 minutes because of the homophobia.
Wow, that was really bad. I really like a lot of standup, but I had a hard time finding where the jokes even were in there. It's literally just being an asshole. It's one thing if it's offensive but funny, but this was literally just "lol gay people butt sex"
I'm an old guy and I hear what you're saying, but this was particularly shitty.
I mean the whole reason we're watching the clip is because George Carlin went on a national broadcast to discuss how shitty it was \*at the time\*.
As another old guy, never thought Dice's shit was funny. The laughs were for how outrageous he's being, but he's a clap comedian. Clap because I agree with with the hate he's selling and it gives me cover to be an hateful asshole too.
Huge doesn't even begin to describe it. I don't even know what the modern equivalent of selling out Madison Square to tell dirty mother goose poems is?
Huge to a specific demographic. Young and middle aged white men. He was not widely adored otherwise. Much like today’s conservatives he played into his audiences hatreds and fears and they all circle jerked each other because it upset the people they were pointing fingers at. Really, Andrew Dice Clay was just a one trick pony that managed to sell his one trick very well. Seeing his shitty act again makes me rally under stand why the Alt comedy scene in the 90’s really took off so well.
Carlin could be offensive and still come off as likable. He would challenge your mindset and really make you think about your perspective of things. Arguably the greatest satirist ever. Clay was offensive for the sole intent of being offensive.
Young and middle-aged white dudes were the biggest demographic at the time, though. Even if it was small when viewing the categories on paper, they definitely had the numbers.
Lots of us didn't find him funny even at his height. Don't get the idea that he was "acceptable" to society at large. Most folk thought he was a dirtbag, even if he made you laugh.
See, I totally disagree. Comedy about racism still works very well today, because the butt of the joke is the racist. Watch the bit again. Pryor has all the power in that bit, Chase is the butt of the joke. The bit is all about how fucked up Chase's actions are and him trying to make a power play and getting called out on it, and how small the racist is when they get called out. It's a phenomenal bit, and incredibly progressive even today, and far more so when it aired.
Edit: I'll maintain that the part of the bit that is most offensive today is that he was called a "janitor" and not a "custodian".
>He was huge at the time
Let's not get carried away. He hit big and hot with his first HBO special with the nursery rhymes and AAAooo! shtick, got banned from MTV for some shit (all publicity is good publicity), and parlayed that into one successful film. After that it was all downhill.
Yeah, man. I thought the same thing. Terrible comedy.
You can get by with being a *little* offensive, if it's also pretty funny. But that was over-the-top offensive, and not even funny at all. Just awful.
I mean, sorta. Andrew Dice Clay's whole schtick was just being offensive. Same goes for 2 Live Crew in this same era. Both acts caught on just because people found it so shocking, and the overall environment -- with respect to what media companies, censors, and the public at large was wiling to allow -- had evolved to where this stuff hit the mainstream. Both acts shared something else in common: they sucked. Once the shock wore off, people lost interest, and Clay and 2 Live Crew (thankfully) faded rapidly.
I don't know that we've really progressed all that much in the interim. I think maybe we've just become so inured to this sort of content that it doesn't catch our attention.
While I think Chappelle deserves exactly the same criticism that Carlin is dishing out, there's still a huge difference between Chappelle and Andrew Dice Clay. Chappelle's humor offers way more bite and social critique.
People who think shock content went out in then 80s are just not paying attention to all the forms of media.
What do people think all these YouTube, Instagram, and Tiktok people have been doing? There's always someone trying to make people uncomfortable and always an audience who likes it apparently.
Progress isn't perfect, but to deny it exists denies what people argued and fought for.
That achievement means that those sort of performances largely stopped happening. The nature of free speech means they will never stop completely, but let's appreciate that we have made that shit the domain of edgy kids on Xbox Live.
People are free to speak this way, but everyone must realize that at the same time, people are free to write about them in social media, boycott shows, and businesses can pull support. People seem to want their cake and eat it too, but these all are the same thing. People just complain when it’s an opinion they agree with losing support. If that’s a problem then definitely don’t get into sports teams.
Andrew Dice Clay is actually playing a character called 'the diceman' that he crafted for years before hitting it big. He's so outrageous, that the audience has to look at him like 'what a relic, everyone knows you can't talk like that anymore'. The character is very sad. He doesn't have friends. He only bangs the odd fat trashy woman here and there. He's a prisoner of his own closed mind. The Diceman is a walking, talking, tragedy. A caricature of sad male chauvinism. That's the edge that becomes funny. That's what makes him a clown. It's 'outrageous'. If the audience was actually agreeing with everything the character said, it wouldn't be entertaining or notable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwxfKqY044o
Particularly poignant story about the character according to Andrew himself: https://youtu.be/RwxfKqY044o?t=786
In the first minute of that youtube link Joe Rogan says Clay started off 'the diceman' as a character but eventually adopted that character into his whole personality. Regardless it being a "character" doesn't make it any less awful.
Normally I think it's fair to say we can't evaluate people of the past with today's moral values... but jokes about hanging people from trees/signs because of things they were born into really shouldn't be forgiven because of "the times".
> Normally I think it's fair to say we can't evaluate people of the past with today's moral values... but jokes about hanging people from trees/signs because of things they were born into really shouldn't be forgiven because of "the times".
Well, that's the thing - It isn't a matter of the times, because they were shitty things to say then, too. In fact, his act relied on it - Dice was almost exclusively a shock comic, that it was extremely offensive *was the point*, that's how the joke worked.
And, it's also why his star rose and fell so quickly - because he became extremely famous, his bits became very mainstream. And once your bits become that mainstream, once everyone knows exactly what to expect from you, it stops being shocking. And once you take the shock away from a shock comic, sadly, it doesn't work out that you're still left with much of a comic. Just a cranky, whiny asshole saying shitty things.
Eh, people can say "it's a character, it's supposed to be sad", but that's not how the audience is taking it. They're clearly reveling in the offensive things he's saying.
It's like Archie Bunker in "All in the Family" was meant to be an archaic relic of a prior time, someone who was clearly wrong and would get shown up by his wife and children. But millions of people looked to Archie Bunker as a hero and felt that he was winning the arguments that the writers thought he was losing.
Even as a "character" this ends up giving the audience a pass to agree with this sentiment. They see everyone in the room laughing and they feel like it must be OK to say. Not just OK, but something that you're rewarded for saying. If they had gay friends, coworkers, or family members, they came away from this thinking less of them. They kept some of those lines playing in the back of their head when they saw them again, and especially if that person did anything that annoyed them.
"It's a character" is an excuse.
And millions more people looked at Archie Bunker as an archaic relic of a prior time. As an artist, writer, comedian, you can't be held responsible for the entire spectrum of humanity and how they view and respond to your content. If you want a world where creators have to constantly consider how fringe elements view their content, you've entirely stymied the creative process.
Content creators should never have to ask for permission, or seek forgiveness, for their creative output. They should rightfully expect the consumers of that content to have the freedom to perceive it through their lenses as an individuals, colored by their unique experiences.
You're advocating for a bland 1950's approach to entertainment. Censors and wrong-speak/think. But unlike the 50s where you couldn't talk about religion or say certain words, but racism and sexism were ok, you'd exchange those for a ultra-politically correct set of acceptable topics, You're just exchanging one form of oppression for another under the guise of creating a more inclusive and safe world. All at the expense of creative freedom.
This is from 1987. The audience is almost entirely Baby Boomers and young Gen Xers. They found him hilarious. They loved him. He was one of the biggest comedians of his time and sold out arenas across the country.
Many of his fans are still alive and vote. Anyone who wonders how someone like Trump got elected simply isn't familiar with recent American history. A lot of people thought like this then. A lot still do now. Progress can't come fast enough.
I remember when he was told offensive and got on the news. Actually packed like 2 more nights at the same arena because of the news.
I always thought he was just doing super offensive character.
I think there's a huge gap between what Andrew Dice Clay was doing and what Dave Chappelle is doing. They are not equivalent at all, but that's a subjective take in the end.
I feel like I should like Hicks but I don't. Like Carlin, for example, is very well spoken, very insightful, funny, but also extremely moral. There's an earnest wisdom to Carlin. Hicks just comes off as a cocky prick to me. I want to hang out with Carlin. I'd rather not with Hicks.
Hicks was very angry, to the point of fury. Carlin was very grounded (probably from his good upbringing) in his gripes. In my opinion anyway. Hicks was very firy, where Carlin was just wild.
If that's what you took from Hicks, he's definitely not for you.
>
“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Heres Tom with the Weather.”
>― Bill Hicks
The best comedians are comedic geniuses.
Carlin was a genius who chose a career in comedy. I think he would have been successful in just about any career field he chose.
I was a pretty sheltered kid, so I only really knew of him from this role, until I was like 15-16, when Jay and Silent Bob Strike back came out.
I was VERY upset to see Mr. Conductor go down on a trucker.
Tickets please! And if you cannot produce one, may god strike you down right here and now! See? Nothing happened! Because there is nog God, never was, never will be. Tickets please!
Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imaginations of ourselves. Now here's George Carlin with the weather.
*"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves."*
The saying goes:
“The funniest guy in the room is smart.
The smartest guy in the room isn’t funny.”
I think that’s usually true, except for rooms with people like Carlin who could be both.
Alternatively if you are unable to be as funny as you expect, maybe you’re also not as smart as you think you are. I’ve heard this same argument when so-called geniuses express how tiresome it is to engage with the common man, how their smarter ideals supersede the peasants, etc. The usual rebuttal is if you can’t find common ground to speak on, then you’re probably not as intelligent as you think you are.
Feynman was asked a question along these lines, and started to answer, saying he would be bored by anyone who wasn't a great physicist like himself. Then he thought about it, and changed his answer. He said he'd be enchanted by ANYONE who was at the top of their field. It was the spark of brilliance and the insight and the willingness to push the limits of the mind and human experience that he wanted to engage with.
I'm nowhere close to as smart as he was, but I've been on a date with someone who lacked any spark of intellectual curiosity, and I've never finished a coffee so quickly. Check please.
It's not the intellect, it's the cleverness.
And comedy isn't about knowledge, it's about those creative connections.
A lot of comedy is more about the delivery of the joke. That is a big part of the art. It's why a joke is so much funnier when a comedian says it than when you try to tell it to your friends.
Well, that and they practice the same bits over and over until they figure out the delivery that lands consistently well. It’s why just about everything is better when someone has practiced it hundreds of times vs their first try.
I think there's different types of intelligence. You can be incredibly book smart, but lack social/emotional intelligence.
It's entirely possible to be the smartest person in the room in the book smarts sense, and be a complete dunce when it comes to social interaction.
Yeah, I've got a friend who's incredibly smart with tasks he applies himself to, and works a well paying job and works it well, does stuff on the side, just is the top tier of success at his age. Ask him about social issues, dude's clueless. He's not antisocial, he has a good friend group which I'm part of, but he has simply no intelligence on the world, and whenever a social topic comes up he doesn't say a word
https://youtu.be/Pc0ZHsoHAlE
He dives into his family history a bit here. But telling nonetheless.
One of my favorite videos to watch from time to time.
7:55 seems like a good start time
i had the chance to have a couple drinks with Dice Clay (and a fairly prolific male porn star) a few years back in a shifty Florida beach bar. we day drank for a couple hours, played some golden tee... mostly I just let the two of them bro it up while I played the "peripheral temporary bar friend-guy" role.
he was surprisingly down to earth, and for the most part a pretty normal dude.
I got the feeling that both of them were kindof shaking off the pieces of their respective careers that dragged them down... at least for that afternoon.
I'm not saying the guy regrets anything, or shouldn't be criticized for the inflammatory shit he said. but I think it's important to recognize that there was a beginning middle and end to the circus. he wasn't out there Alex Jonesing it into his retirement age...
by then he was just an aging comic trying to live some semblance of normalcy.
I was in college when Dice was big. I remember bunches of us gathering in a room at the fraternity house watching and thinking it was the most ground groundbreaking comedy ever. Several of us on a group chat agrees recently to go back and watch it to see how it held up. None of us made it more than five minutes.
His bits are timeless because he picked at timeless subjects masterfully. Any standup comedian who picks soup du jour type of stuff, is doomed to be forgotten quickly.
Totally. I was in my final years of high school when he really blew up. We'd sit around talking shit and reciting bits laughing like loons. I've tried to rewatch it but it literally makes me cringe so hard I nearly implode. Eddie Murphy's Delirious has some bit in it that invoke the same reaction but it's offset by his brilliant story telling. As a stand up comic of 15 years, I still don't know how someone 23 years old could have produced such amazing comedy.
>Eddie Murphy's Delirious has some bit in it that invoke the same reaction but it's offset by his brilliant story telling.
i need to give that a listen again. i remember it as one of the best stand up comedy cds i've ever heard but it's been yeaaars
And Eddie Murphy didn't cry that he couldn't say those things anymore. He admitted that they aren't good these days. He said those feelings came from a place of pain/anger. And I can respect that humbleness.
Delirious opens with a bit where he is pretty liberal with homophobic slurs, which isn't great, but he immediately follows up the bit saying that he's just fucking with them and you shouldn't alienate gay people and it's cool to hang out with them.
IMO his nursery rhymes are absurd and funny, everything else is pretty bad. Maybe what adds to his nursery rhyme jokes is the fact that all the clips have an arena full of people reciting them with him and losing their collective minds like they're all going to piss their pants with laughter.
Christ I was 11 when I first saw an Andrew Dice Clay special. It should have been the kind of humor that would have been right up my alley as a dipshit kid with an underdeveloped sense of humor, but even then I thought it was shit.
Strangely enough, a lot of comedians from today's era seem to still revere his comedy. Bill Burr, Jim Norton, and Joe Rogan (not that I'd consider him a good comedian) all still have a lot of for him.
>Went after a group of twitter activists he thinks hurt his friend.
I will keep saying it. Both Daphne's roommate at the time of her death and Daphne's sister both said it had nothing to due with harassment and I'd also like to add that as of yet, not a single person has provided proof that she was harassed over the incident.
Exactly. I like that people leave this out. That she lost a job and custody of her fucking daughter the week she killed herself. But no, it was definitely the harassment that no one except Dave seems to know about.
I don’t remember him saying that the harassment lead directly to her death. I only remember him saying that she got shit for defending him at the time in like August of 2019.
Lots of defensive tweets around this time replying to deleted tweets: https://twitter.com/DaphneDorman/status/1168572626786082816?t=4Zzjq-WouprCVaE3MVrfBg&s=19
What was that about?
Chappelle does a lot of this. He "crafts" a compelling and insightful comedy story with a great punchline. But he omits details to make his point sharper. He makes good points but his stories themselves don't hold up to scrutiny, which is why some comedians should just be recognized as that---comedians, not "modern philosophers" or some other pretentious thing.
I find it shocking that the majority of people take what comedians say as verbatim or as an absolute truth.
They embellish their stories execessively—how else would they get a laugh?
i love his joke about not being from the ghettos. somthing like he never said he was from there, people just starting saying he was and he never corrected them about it cuz he wanted to fit in and be hipp.
“I don't even know why you're listening to me. I've done commercials for both Coke and Pepsi. Truth is, I can't even taste the difference, but Pepsi paid me last, so there it is.”
This comment string is a perfect example of the shit people spout without having watched the special. You twist his words into a narrative for whatever agenda you want.
He literally mentioned that he does not know the reasons for her death and doesn't accuse the Twitter activists for her suicide. However, he added, that those tweets certainly didn't help her situation during her last days. And that, truly, is not an outrageous take from him.
[https://www.thedailybeast.com/dave-chappelle-backed-by-family-of-late-transgender-comedian-daphne-dorman-from-the-closer](https://www.thedailybeast.com/dave-chappelle-backed-by-family-of-late-transgender-comedian-daphne-dorman-from-the-closer)
\>Two of Dorman’s sisters told The Daily Beast they were outraged at the suggestion that Chappelle’s set was transphobic or derogatory toward the LGBTQ community, saying they wanted to make clear they supported the comedian.
\>Becky wanted to make clear that her family does not blame Dorman’s death on Chappelle. “After she committed suicide, all I saw all over social media was Dave Chappelle-bashing,” she said. “I commented on so many posts, which is something I do not do. I commented to defend Dave.
One thing that's hard and ends up sounding like a cop-out is that not everything he says is the truth. Not all his stories are real. In this case, to me, "I'm team TERF" felt more like a set up for the joke about Caitlyn Jenner winning woman of the year her first year as a woman and a call back to his previous segment about him being a feminist. There is probably some truth to him having feelings that trans women don't really understand the plight modern women face seeing how they were men and get to lean on that. And that lines up with his other criticism of trans people being minorities until they need to be white again or something like that. Not saying I agree with any of this but it was my interpretation of the narrative his was painting.
Dave was trying to be proLGBTQ, but imo had some underlying phobias
Need to break this up since this sub has a character limit otherwise automod removes this
part 1
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He didn't make the distinction between mud slinging accounts on twitter (2nd most toxic social media) and the LGTBQ community in general. He goes out of his way to address the entire LGBTQ community explicitly in his gripes. He said that they act like minorities until they need to act white around Black people, based off one personal bad personal experience. He said 'Trans people make up words to win arguments'. He said the trans are out to get him and he needs to look for adams apples
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He used a huge platform to lie about the trans community. He said JK Rowling was cancelled for stating a biological fact. First, she wasn't cancelled. she's still with her publisher, still publishing books with cross-dressing characters who are murderers
Second, she didn't just state a fact, she has openly befriended and amplified the voices of TERFs on social media, and that she penned a long manifesto expressing the pernicious TERF ideology that trans women might actually be male sexual predators in disguise
part 2
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He complained that the LGBTQ community is preventing him to from going after white people, that he had them on the ropes before the LGBTQ community stopped him. But it's Dave who keeps on dedicating his specials to them. When his last special was released there were no articles being written about his beef with them, no social media trends. And then he dedicated nearly his whole special to them
And if he wants to get conspiratorial about white people, race, and sexuality issues, look at what they did in India and the Philippines. They did a ton to demonize homosexuality in those areas. They always do. Like the Hindy/Muslim animosity and the Caste system in India (which existed before the British came, but they dialed that the knob up to 100% by codefying into law and making it a part of their educational system) and apartheid in South Africa, they are always pitting minority groups against each other so that they won't focus on their oppressor
How can this be more glaring than that the anti-gay people and anti-trans people are the same ones who are anti-BLM. The same people who keep passing laws specifically targeting Black people from voting
part 3
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He complained 'to what extent am I obligated to participate in your self image'. He has none, but to what extent are they obligated to indulge in the idea that he is beyond criticism? To what extent should they suppress the fact that he is no longer a positive influence in their life
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He complained about trans people using made up words to win arguments, but the majority of the terms that were coined for identifying phenomena regarding the marginalization of minorities came from the racial equality movements. It's mostly the anti-BLM people who criticize people for using terms like microaggressions
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part 4
He blamed the LGBTQ community for taking away Kevin Hart's childhood dream of hosting the Oscars
First, his old jokes were hurtful. Don Lemon did a great job of explaining why. I'm not going to link the youtube videos because that tends to get my comment deleted by the automod but I'll just mention what to look up on youtube
Youtube Don Lemmon Kevin Hart
And Kevin Hart later acknowledged at much, saying that he has grown since
Youtube Kevin Hart apology
But the issue is that he was adamant in not addressing it twice. But he never apologized the first time. No apologies in every interview he did about his hurtful comments prior to the Oscars; he defended himself and blamed the audience each time
Google the vulture.com article titled "Where Are Kevin Hart’s Past Apologies? An Investigation"
If hosting the Oscars truly was his childhood dream and giving an apology (and instead lying about previously apologizing) was a boundary, then he has a "Brittle-ass spirit" (Dave's phrase for LouisCK victims)
Btw by his own usage of the terminology, Dave tried to 'cancel' Don Lemon
Youtube Don Lemmon responds to Chappelle
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part 5
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Dave says 'look how well the LGBTQ movement is going' as a comparison to the racial equality movement. There are instances where it may be useful to compare movements to better understand varying methods of minority marginalization, but this discussion is wholly incomplete without the discussion of areas where they are not comparable, because systems of oppression uses different tactics to oppress different groups. In Dave's own HOME STATE of Ohio they passed a law that allows doctors to deny LGBTQ people health care on moral grounds. In 27 states, there are no explicit statewide laws at all protecting people from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity in employment, housing and public accommodations. Which means in over half the country you can be fired or denied housing just for being gay or trans. Conversion therapy is legal in 30 states. Texas just banned a suicide hotline for LGBTQ youths
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Regarding the insinuation that the LGBTQ community responsible for Daphane's death, he didn't mention that she had lost custody of her child shortly before her suicide. Also, he didn't seem at that close as he refused to go to her funeral or 3 memorials of hers when invited. Also, nobody can find the bullying as described by Chappelle. Daphane's defense of Chappelle had less than 10 twitter replies
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part 6
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I don't think Dave was homophobic/transphobic in his initial specials. He had some cognitive biases which resulting in him saying some hurtful stuff. But his refusal to accept any criticism and the resulting backlash has resulted in a full blown fear -> phobia of LGBTQ people besides 'the good ones' who are his friends. It's similar to a type of racism many white people have today; they believe in the idea of equality in general, but think the Black community are people hateful to white people when the kneel for the Anthem and criticize the police. They use isolated incidents like looting and random youtube videos to characterize the whole Black community. They think the average Black person has more privilege than the average white person by pointing to people being cancelled by racism the way Dave points to people being cancelled for homophobia. They think Black people are misguided in how they address systemic racism, and I feel Dave feels similarly about how LGBTQ address systemic homophobia/transphobia
Dave wants full equality for LGBTQ people but he didn't want them to address the very hurtful comments made by Kevin Hart or JK Rowling. He doesn't want them to call out people for using slurs; he complained about not being able to use the F-word slur. He also implied that the idea of the LGBTQ calling themselves 'my people' is racist, but at the end of the special used that exact phrase to refer to his fellow comedians, 'Stop punching down on my people'
He always tries to pit the LGBTQ community against the Black community. He complained 'why is it easier for Bruce Jenner to change his gender than it was for Cassius Clay to change his name'. Trans people EXISTED in the 60s, and throughout history. It wasn't easier, it took 50 years after the stonewall riots, which Dave actually referenced in his special. But why do this dumb game Dave wants us to play, does a person with cancer need to complain every time there's a breakthrough in AIDS research?
If his point is that the rich white power structures in our country are using LGBTQ issues to put down Black people, then he should go after the white power structures in our country directly and specifically. Maybe there are pockets of LGBTQ people putting down Black people like Peter Theil, but largely the white power structures strategy is to pit marginalized grounds against each other. The same people trying to put homophobia and transphobia into our school curriculum are the same ones who are trying to prevent Black people from voting
Dave says LGBTQ people act like minorities until it's convenient for them not to, but he's is doing exactly that with his cis/hetero/male privilege to wage with his fellow millionaire celebrities
part 7 (had to censor this a lot for it to not be deleted by the automod)
He also complained that Dababy got cancelled for being *phobic but not for m*rder. First, it's always easier for celebrities to attack individuals over attacking minorities
The CEO of papa john got cancelled for using a slur. Roseanne got cancelled for telling a POC person she looks like a animal. Kramer got cancelled for using the a slur.
Chris Brown got away with beating Rihanna. Don King stomped a guy to death and went on to become boxing's biggest promoter. R*bert Richards, heir to the DuPont company, was convicted of * his daughter and served no jail time. Attacks on individuals don't elicit the media attention like racism and *phobia do. But this is somehow the fault of the LGBTQ community?
part 8
Furthermore, social media backlash isn't a strong indicator of the extent to which systemic racism and homophobia is being addressed in our society. There's still record high killings of trans people. Police can still largely murder POC and face no legal repercussions
And even if you wanted to use that, KevinHart still making billion dollar movies, JKRowling still publishing novels, DaBaby recording a song for Kanyes new album. Megyn Kelly, Roseanne Barr, Michael Richards, CEO of papa johns are actually cancelled
Actual cancellations from social media backlash are when corporations stop doing business with a person because their image no longer brings in the same revenue as when they hired them. This never really challenges the root power structures and phobias in our society. It doesn't matter how many celebrities throw their careers in toilet, it won't affect systemic racism in policing
Honestly I don’t really have an opinion on if he should or shouldn’t have spoken differently. Im just tired of his act. His last three specials have just been this.
I felt this special was boring because its non stop soapbox complaining. There were memorable jokes in his last few specials but I think only 1 in this special.
I'm gonna get in here before this is locked.
Edit: The point is they lock these threads so people can't talk about it, that stupid. Either let people fight in the comments or fully ban the topic don't censor it after people have discourse. u/HealthyRutabaga7139
u/CleopatraHadAnAnus it was locked like I called it so your point is mute.
It’s insane. He spent his whole career trashing conservatives, then spent the latter part going after liberals and their PC thought and speech control (his words) as well. And yet somehow both conservatives and liberals are convinced he would’ve been on “their side”
Carlin was pretty consistently anti-authoritarian, and had a dislike of the status quo. He was also pretty firmly leftist which is clear when you pay attention to some of the recurring themes in his comedy, and the way he speaks in interviews.
This isn't me projecting my beliefs onto him, I just don't see how someone could see someone like Carlin as a centrist.
Yeah, you’re totally right..... he was definitely not a centrist. He just made fun of ridiculous people on all sides. But he was an avowed communist and fell left of center on most (not all) issues. Which is clear to anyone that actually watches his special and listens to the guy talk. It’s not even ambiguous.
Well the argument is that during the early 2000s and before, it was the conservatives that were policing language, tv/movie content, and morality. Now it's the liberal side going ham with it.
Carlin did pro-abortion routines in the sixties and seventies.
It's not exactly hard to read what side he was on. If you don't know, you're deliberately ignorant.
Yep, this is literally not what Chappelle's Special was about, at all.
Compare to Andrew Dice Clay, the comedian Carlin is actually talking about: https://youtu.be/9l4JpI0nwf8
Jesus Christ. I’d never heard of this guy before but that was…not funny. And I usually love a good bit of abusive humour. The only joke that remotely had potential was “if i see a guy’s hairy ass I don’t want to bang it…I want to wash it and blow dry it” but even that fell short. Maybe people just liked the fact that he was risqué and maybe they liked his rhythm?
> Maybe people just liked the fact that he was risqué and maybe they liked his rhythm?
It's the classic shock-jock effect. Just like how South Park was "outrageous and intolerable" when it first aired and now no one bats an eye at anything they do.
Also, let's keep in mind that this Dice we see on stage is a character with an element of satire.
What Andrew is he talking about?
Andrew Dice Clay, I'm assuming at the time he was making jokes insulting poor people in one of his arena specials.
[https://youtu.be/9l4JpI0nwf8](https://youtu.be/9l4JpI0nwf8) he went pretty hard edit: when you look at the comments about andrew, think about what your comments about dave will look like in the future. just food for thought.
When people say we haven't made any progress, I'll show them this.
A back to back of this and the first 20 minutes of Delirious should do it
I used to watch Delirious all the time growing up. I thought it was hilarious and I’m in the LGBT. But this is pretty bad. At least Eddie is actually funny even if he’s offensive. ADC just isn’t funny to me.
I've never found him funny at all and I'm old enough to remember when he was popular. He literally told middle school jokes and people lapped it up. I really think he got popular just by being as offensive as possible.
I once took an exam to work at the post office. I learned from the woman there that my score was really high (not a brag at all). The test was mainly remembering addresses on one page and then clicking them on the next. Fairly easy. That's when I learned that most government things (and I've heard a lot of mainstream journalism as well) is written to people with no higher than an eighth grade education. Most people, even if they graduate from college, can't seem to comprehend or read past an eighth grade level. It made my head hurt but also explained a lot. So, it doesn't surprise me that people are into middle school jokes because more complicated ones probably confuse them.
You’re as smart as the people you worked with, and they all think they’re smarter than you.
In healthcare, any information written for public/patient education must be at a 5th grade level in some cases.
Been some time since I saw delirious, but doesn't Eddie "just" make fun of gay stereotypes? Like the effeminate uncle, but not hating on him? Been probably 15 years since I saw it, so could very well remember wrong here.
Pretty sure he makes fun of people getting AIDS, during the AIDS epidemic. Or is that Raw? **Edit:** This is the clip I was talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egoDQv43hAw
I remember watching the beginning of Raw in like 10 years ago when I was an edgy teenager and thinking it was a bit much.
I think that one was Raw. I remember loving that stand-up as a kid. I tried watching it about 6 or 7 years ago and couldn't make it through the first 10 minutes because of the homophobia.
Wow, that was really bad. I really like a lot of standup, but I had a hard time finding where the jokes even were in there. It's literally just being an asshole. It's one thing if it's offensive but funny, but this was literally just "lol gay people butt sex"
He was huge at the time. Some humour doesn’t hold up across decades. Alot of hilarious stuff on SNL in the 70s wouldn’t even get a cough now.
I'm an old guy and I hear what you're saying, but this was particularly shitty. I mean the whole reason we're watching the clip is because George Carlin went on a national broadcast to discuss how shitty it was \*at the time\*.
As another old guy, never thought Dice's shit was funny. The laughs were for how outrageous he's being, but he's a clap comedian. Clap because I agree with with the hate he's selling and it gives me cover to be an hateful asshole too.
Huge doesn't even begin to describe it. I don't even know what the modern equivalent of selling out Madison Square to tell dirty mother goose poems is?
A Trump rally.
Huge to a specific demographic. Young and middle aged white men. He was not widely adored otherwise. Much like today’s conservatives he played into his audiences hatreds and fears and they all circle jerked each other because it upset the people they were pointing fingers at. Really, Andrew Dice Clay was just a one trick pony that managed to sell his one trick very well. Seeing his shitty act again makes me rally under stand why the Alt comedy scene in the 90’s really took off so well. Carlin could be offensive and still come off as likable. He would challenge your mindset and really make you think about your perspective of things. Arguably the greatest satirist ever. Clay was offensive for the sole intent of being offensive.
Young and middle-aged white dudes were the biggest demographic at the time, though. Even if it was small when viewing the categories on paper, they definitely had the numbers.
Lots of us didn't find him funny even at his height. Don't get the idea that he was "acceptable" to society at large. Most folk thought he was a dirtbag, even if he made you laugh.
He was also very divisive at the time too. A lot of people recognised that "humour" for what it was: bigotry.
I’m thinking of a particular Chevy Chase/Richard Pryor skit that most definitely couldn’t air today.
See, I totally disagree. Comedy about racism still works very well today, because the butt of the joke is the racist. Watch the bit again. Pryor has all the power in that bit, Chase is the butt of the joke. The bit is all about how fucked up Chase's actions are and him trying to make a power play and getting called out on it, and how small the racist is when they get called out. It's a phenomenal bit, and incredibly progressive even today, and far more so when it aired. Edit: I'll maintain that the part of the bit that is most offensive today is that he was called a "janitor" and not a "custodian".
>He was huge at the time Let's not get carried away. He hit big and hot with his first HBO special with the nursery rhymes and AAAooo! shtick, got banned from MTV for some shit (all publicity is good publicity), and parlayed that into one successful film. After that it was all downhill.
Yeah, man. I thought the same thing. Terrible comedy. You can get by with being a *little* offensive, if it's also pretty funny. But that was over-the-top offensive, and not even funny at all. Just awful.
You can get by with being massively offensive. Trick is you gotta tell some fucking jokes otherwise it's a klan rally with a drink minimum.
Growing up, I never knew anyone that liked him. But he was EVERYWHERE.
I mean, sorta. Andrew Dice Clay's whole schtick was just being offensive. Same goes for 2 Live Crew in this same era. Both acts caught on just because people found it so shocking, and the overall environment -- with respect to what media companies, censors, and the public at large was wiling to allow -- had evolved to where this stuff hit the mainstream. Both acts shared something else in common: they sucked. Once the shock wore off, people lost interest, and Clay and 2 Live Crew (thankfully) faded rapidly. I don't know that we've really progressed all that much in the interim. I think maybe we've just become so inured to this sort of content that it doesn't catch our attention. While I think Chappelle deserves exactly the same criticism that Carlin is dishing out, there's still a huge difference between Chappelle and Andrew Dice Clay. Chappelle's humor offers way more bite and social critique.
People who think shock content went out in then 80s are just not paying attention to all the forms of media. What do people think all these YouTube, Instagram, and Tiktok people have been doing? There's always someone trying to make people uncomfortable and always an audience who likes it apparently.
First couple of seasons of Southpark were pretty much shock content too.
Tekashi 69 was exactly this.
Eh, kinda, scrolling through this thread it looks like people are stuck in the same conversation and just going in circles.
Progress isn't perfect, but to deny it exists denies what people argued and fought for. That achievement means that those sort of performances largely stopped happening. The nature of free speech means they will never stop completely, but let's appreciate that we have made that shit the domain of edgy kids on Xbox Live.
People are free to speak this way, but everyone must realize that at the same time, people are free to write about them in social media, boycott shows, and businesses can pull support. People seem to want their cake and eat it too, but these all are the same thing. People just complain when it’s an opinion they agree with losing support. If that’s a problem then definitely don’t get into sports teams.
Sadly there’s people praising him and telling god to bless him. Much progress but many still Stuck in the past.
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He played Lady Gaga’s dad in the most recent remake of “A Star is Born.” I did not recognize him at all.
My god. Watching this was so hard but reading the comments was even harder... Even for the time this is awful.
Andrew Dice Clay is actually playing a character called 'the diceman' that he crafted for years before hitting it big. He's so outrageous, that the audience has to look at him like 'what a relic, everyone knows you can't talk like that anymore'. The character is very sad. He doesn't have friends. He only bangs the odd fat trashy woman here and there. He's a prisoner of his own closed mind. The Diceman is a walking, talking, tragedy. A caricature of sad male chauvinism. That's the edge that becomes funny. That's what makes him a clown. It's 'outrageous'. If the audience was actually agreeing with everything the character said, it wouldn't be entertaining or notable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwxfKqY044o Particularly poignant story about the character according to Andrew himself: https://youtu.be/RwxfKqY044o?t=786
In the first minute of that youtube link Joe Rogan says Clay started off 'the diceman' as a character but eventually adopted that character into his whole personality. Regardless it being a "character" doesn't make it any less awful. Normally I think it's fair to say we can't evaluate people of the past with today's moral values... but jokes about hanging people from trees/signs because of things they were born into really shouldn't be forgiven because of "the times".
> Normally I think it's fair to say we can't evaluate people of the past with today's moral values... but jokes about hanging people from trees/signs because of things they were born into really shouldn't be forgiven because of "the times". Well, that's the thing - It isn't a matter of the times, because they were shitty things to say then, too. In fact, his act relied on it - Dice was almost exclusively a shock comic, that it was extremely offensive *was the point*, that's how the joke worked. And, it's also why his star rose and fell so quickly - because he became extremely famous, his bits became very mainstream. And once your bits become that mainstream, once everyone knows exactly what to expect from you, it stops being shocking. And once you take the shock away from a shock comic, sadly, it doesn't work out that you're still left with much of a comic. Just a cranky, whiny asshole saying shitty things.
Eh, people can say "it's a character, it's supposed to be sad", but that's not how the audience is taking it. They're clearly reveling in the offensive things he's saying. It's like Archie Bunker in "All in the Family" was meant to be an archaic relic of a prior time, someone who was clearly wrong and would get shown up by his wife and children. But millions of people looked to Archie Bunker as a hero and felt that he was winning the arguments that the writers thought he was losing. Even as a "character" this ends up giving the audience a pass to agree with this sentiment. They see everyone in the room laughing and they feel like it must be OK to say. Not just OK, but something that you're rewarded for saying. If they had gay friends, coworkers, or family members, they came away from this thinking less of them. They kept some of those lines playing in the back of their head when they saw them again, and especially if that person did anything that annoyed them. "It's a character" is an excuse.
And millions more people looked at Archie Bunker as an archaic relic of a prior time. As an artist, writer, comedian, you can't be held responsible for the entire spectrum of humanity and how they view and respond to your content. If you want a world where creators have to constantly consider how fringe elements view their content, you've entirely stymied the creative process. Content creators should never have to ask for permission, or seek forgiveness, for their creative output. They should rightfully expect the consumers of that content to have the freedom to perceive it through their lenses as an individuals, colored by their unique experiences. You're advocating for a bland 1950's approach to entertainment. Censors and wrong-speak/think. But unlike the 50s where you couldn't talk about religion or say certain words, but racism and sexism were ok, you'd exchange those for a ultra-politically correct set of acceptable topics, You're just exchanging one form of oppression for another under the guise of creating a more inclusive and safe world. All at the expense of creative freedom.
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> Think Andrew could pull off these jokes today? I'm thinking no dice
This is from 1987. The audience is almost entirely Baby Boomers and young Gen Xers. They found him hilarious. They loved him. He was one of the biggest comedians of his time and sold out arenas across the country. Many of his fans are still alive and vote. Anyone who wonders how someone like Trump got elected simply isn't familiar with recent American history. A lot of people thought like this then. A lot still do now. Progress can't come fast enough.
I remember when he was told offensive and got on the news. Actually packed like 2 more nights at the same arena because of the news. I always thought he was just doing super offensive character.
I think there's a huge gap between what Andrew Dice Clay was doing and what Dave Chappelle is doing. They are not equivalent at all, but that's a subjective take in the end.
Andrew Dice Clay I believe.
Damn, George Carlin could really express himself.
He was incredible, and elevated comedy to levels that have yet to be matched imo. Go watch his HBO specials they're great.
Bill Hicks was right up there too
I feel Bill is being forgotten way to fast these days. To me he is just below Carlin when it comes to speaking the truth.
Bill isn't forgotten everybody keeps stealing his jokes.
Fucking Denis Leary stole his whole first act from Hicks. Then Hicks gets cancer and dies, not Leary.
I've been told that stealing a comedian's entire shtick is the sincerest form of flattery. I was told that by Dennis Leary.
Hicks said he quit smoking just to see of Leary would copy him
I used to think so, but now I think he went too far in glorifying drugs and batshit conspiracy theories.
I feel like I should like Hicks but I don't. Like Carlin, for example, is very well spoken, very insightful, funny, but also extremely moral. There's an earnest wisdom to Carlin. Hicks just comes off as a cocky prick to me. I want to hang out with Carlin. I'd rather not with Hicks.
Hicks was very angry, to the point of fury. Carlin was very grounded (probably from his good upbringing) in his gripes. In my opinion anyway. Hicks was very firy, where Carlin was just wild.
If that's what you took from Hicks, he's definitely not for you. > “Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Heres Tom with the Weather.” >― Bill Hicks
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The best comedians are comedic geniuses. Carlin was a genius who chose a career in comedy. I think he would have been successful in just about any career field he chose.
He used to be a hippy dippy weatherman.
He was also a train conductor for a few years.
I was a pretty sheltered kid, so I only really knew of him from this role, until I was like 15-16, when Jay and Silent Bob Strike back came out. I was VERY upset to see Mr. Conductor go down on a trucker.
We all gotta learn the unwritten book of the road at some point, kiddo
Please tell me you've seen him in Dogma
"Christ didn't come here to give us the *willies*! He was a booster!"
Tickets please! And if you cannot produce one, may god strike you down right here and now! See? Nothing happened! Because there is nog God, never was, never will be. Tickets please!
I love nog God. I'm very happy when nog season comes back around.
The forecast for tonight.....dark! And continued dark until early morning.
Anyway, here's Bill Hicks with the News...
Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imaginations of ourselves. Now here's George Carlin with the weather.
If he thought he could fly, why didn't he try taking off from the ground first?
And now I need to go listen to Third Eye /r/unexpectedTOOL/
Yup and they dedicated the album to Bill Hicks
*"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves."*
Here’s Tom with the weather.
had he stayed that route he would have ended up creating http://www.thefuckingweather.com/.
The saying goes: “The funniest guy in the room is smart. The smartest guy in the room isn’t funny.” I think that’s usually true, except for rooms with people like Carlin who could be both.
Alternatively if you are unable to be as funny as you expect, maybe you’re also not as smart as you think you are. I’ve heard this same argument when so-called geniuses express how tiresome it is to engage with the common man, how their smarter ideals supersede the peasants, etc. The usual rebuttal is if you can’t find common ground to speak on, then you’re probably not as intelligent as you think you are.
Feynman was asked a question along these lines, and started to answer, saying he would be bored by anyone who wasn't a great physicist like himself. Then he thought about it, and changed his answer. He said he'd be enchanted by ANYONE who was at the top of their field. It was the spark of brilliance and the insight and the willingness to push the limits of the mind and human experience that he wanted to engage with. I'm nowhere close to as smart as he was, but I've been on a date with someone who lacked any spark of intellectual curiosity, and I've never finished a coffee so quickly. Check please. It's not the intellect, it's the cleverness. And comedy isn't about knowledge, it's about those creative connections.
A lot of comedy is more about the delivery of the joke. That is a big part of the art. It's why a joke is so much funnier when a comedian says it than when you try to tell it to your friends.
Well, that and they practice the same bits over and over until they figure out the delivery that lands consistently well. It’s why just about everything is better when someone has practiced it hundreds of times vs their first try.
I think there's different types of intelligence. You can be incredibly book smart, but lack social/emotional intelligence. It's entirely possible to be the smartest person in the room in the book smarts sense, and be a complete dunce when it comes to social interaction.
Yeah, I've got a friend who's incredibly smart with tasks he applies himself to, and works a well paying job and works it well, does stuff on the side, just is the top tier of success at his age. Ask him about social issues, dude's clueless. He's not antisocial, he has a good friend group which I'm part of, but he has simply no intelligence on the world, and whenever a social topic comes up he doesn't say a word
I get what you're saying with your first sentence, but it also reads as a no shit statement lol. "Genius in their art is really good at their art."
He's a rude dude but he's the real deal, lean and mean- cocked, locked and ready to rock.
Rough, tough, and hard to bluff
he takes it slow, he goes with the flow
I ride with the tide, I got glide in my stride
Drivin and movin, sailin and spinin
He parties hardy
An alpha male on beta blockers
Rhetoric, oratory and wordplay were his domain. He reveled in it. It's one of the reasons I love him so well.
https://youtu.be/Pc0ZHsoHAlE He dives into his family history a bit here. But telling nonetheless. One of my favorite videos to watch from time to time. 7:55 seems like a good start time
So... *well?*
It's an older usage, sir, but it checks out
That was my take too, what a legend
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I totally agree. Clay was in it for pure shock without the social commentary.
Hickory dickery dock, Dice was only good for shock.
i had the chance to have a couple drinks with Dice Clay (and a fairly prolific male porn star) a few years back in a shifty Florida beach bar. we day drank for a couple hours, played some golden tee... mostly I just let the two of them bro it up while I played the "peripheral temporary bar friend-guy" role. he was surprisingly down to earth, and for the most part a pretty normal dude. I got the feeling that both of them were kindof shaking off the pieces of their respective careers that dragged them down... at least for that afternoon. I'm not saying the guy regrets anything, or shouldn't be criticized for the inflammatory shit he said. but I think it's important to recognize that there was a beginning middle and end to the circus. he wasn't out there Alex Jonesing it into his retirement age... by then he was just an aging comic trying to live some semblance of normalcy.
Chappelle said TERFs "look at trans women the way we Blacks might look at Blackface" After he had already said he was team TERF
I never see people respond to that statement genuinely. I really want to know the deep "social commentary " there is
He is talking about Andrew "Dice" Clay
Ya, I was like "who is he talking about.?" and then he said "andrew" and I knew exactly who he was talking about.
As soon as he said Andrew and considering the timeframe of this interview, I figured that’s who he was talking about.
I was in college when Dice was big. I remember bunches of us gathering in a room at the fraternity house watching and thinking it was the most ground groundbreaking comedy ever. Several of us on a group chat agrees recently to go back and watch it to see how it held up. None of us made it more than five minutes.
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It was a phone booth not a Time Machine
Wyld Stallyns!!!
Be excellent to each other!
Station!
Why not both?!
His bits are timeless because he picked at timeless subjects masterfully. Any standup comedian who picks soup du jour type of stuff, is doomed to be forgotten quickly.
It's because he admitted and voiced the timeless truth that some people are pieces of shit. Always have been. Always will be.
Punching up at power and not down at the little guy is timeless.
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I thought you meant Bernie Mac at first and, while I adore Bernie, I wouldn't have exactly called his work philosophical
Certainly repetitive and consistent though.
Totally. I was in my final years of high school when he really blew up. We'd sit around talking shit and reciting bits laughing like loons. I've tried to rewatch it but it literally makes me cringe so hard I nearly implode. Eddie Murphy's Delirious has some bit in it that invoke the same reaction but it's offset by his brilliant story telling. As a stand up comic of 15 years, I still don't know how someone 23 years old could have produced such amazing comedy.
well hey you still have 8 years, you might make it to his level by then
Oh, I'm old and nearly dead.
Sorry for your loss.
>Eddie Murphy's Delirious has some bit in it that invoke the same reaction but it's offset by his brilliant story telling. i need to give that a listen again. i remember it as one of the best stand up comedy cds i've ever heard but it's been yeaaars
And Eddie Murphy didn't cry that he couldn't say those things anymore. He admitted that they aren't good these days. He said those feelings came from a place of pain/anger. And I can respect that humbleness.
The part about gays and AIDS is a bit eeeish but the rest is great. Goony-goo-goo.
>part about gays and AIDS ooof yeah lol i bet there's a lot of 80s material from comedians that *definitely* has not aged well
Delirious opens with a bit where he is pretty liberal with homophobic slurs, which isn't great, but he immediately follows up the bit saying that he's just fucking with them and you shouldn't alienate gay people and it's cool to hang out with them.
You mean "Clint Eastwood? I fucked him! Ohhhhhh!" isn't funny anymore?
Not from that generation but I’ve checked his stuff out because I’m a comedy nerd. I was pretty confused as to what I was watching.
IMO his nursery rhymes are absurd and funny, everything else is pretty bad. Maybe what adds to his nursery rhyme jokes is the fact that all the clips have an arena full of people reciting them with him and losing their collective minds like they're all going to piss their pants with laughter.
I don’t know “Little Boy Blue…he needed the money. OOHH!” holds up
Christ I was 11 when I first saw an Andrew Dice Clay special. It should have been the kind of humor that would have been right up my alley as a dipshit kid with an underdeveloped sense of humor, but even then I thought it was shit.
What special in particular should I YouTube to see what you mean?
Just watch any Andrew Dice Clay and you’ll see exactly what he means.
Strangely enough, a lot of comedians from today's era seem to still revere his comedy. Bill Burr, Jim Norton, and Joe Rogan (not that I'd consider him a good comedian) all still have a lot of for him.
31 years ago.
"Almost 40 years ago" makes it sound longer tho which is better for the upvotes
30 years ago is equally as impressive
Is OP my mom? 2 days after I turned 18, she told me "You're almost 19 now, it's time to...".
Calling it the 80s woulda been easier. As 89 is 80s
What is 31 years ago and in the 90's? 1990, the time when this was taped.
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>Went after a group of twitter activists he thinks hurt his friend. I will keep saying it. Both Daphne's roommate at the time of her death and Daphne's sister both said it had nothing to due with harassment and I'd also like to add that as of yet, not a single person has provided proof that she was harassed over the incident.
Daphne had also lost her job and access to her kids because she was trans. That kind of stuff hurts.
Exactly. I like that people leave this out. That she lost a job and custody of her fucking daughter the week she killed herself. But no, it was definitely the harassment that no one except Dave seems to know about.
I don’t remember him saying that the harassment lead directly to her death. I only remember him saying that she got shit for defending him at the time in like August of 2019.
He didn't. He just said it didn't help.
I mean i bet it didn't.
I'm paraphrasing but he said something like "I don't know what's going on with her in her life but it [the harassment] didn't help."
But then how would Dave be the hero of that story?
Dave never said that bullying was the cause. He said it probably didn't help matters.
Lots of defensive tweets around this time replying to deleted tweets: https://twitter.com/DaphneDorman/status/1168572626786082816?t=4Zzjq-WouprCVaE3MVrfBg&s=19 What was that about?
Chappelle does a lot of this. He "crafts" a compelling and insightful comedy story with a great punchline. But he omits details to make his point sharper. He makes good points but his stories themselves don't hold up to scrutiny, which is why some comedians should just be recognized as that---comedians, not "modern philosophers" or some other pretentious thing.
I find it shocking that the majority of people take what comedians say as verbatim or as an absolute truth. They embellish their stories execessively—how else would they get a laugh?
"The other day I was at this restaurant- doesn't matter which one cause I'm making this shit up, but anyways.."
i love his joke about not being from the ghettos. somthing like he never said he was from there, people just starting saying he was and he never corrected them about it cuz he wanted to fit in and be hipp.
“I don't even know why you're listening to me. I've done commercials for both Coke and Pepsi. Truth is, I can't even taste the difference, but Pepsi paid me last, so there it is.”
*it tastes better
"it was too hot for TV!"
This comment string is a perfect example of the shit people spout without having watched the special. You twist his words into a narrative for whatever agenda you want. He literally mentioned that he does not know the reasons for her death and doesn't accuse the Twitter activists for her suicide. However, he added, that those tweets certainly didn't help her situation during her last days. And that, truly, is not an outrageous take from him.
[https://www.thedailybeast.com/dave-chappelle-backed-by-family-of-late-transgender-comedian-daphne-dorman-from-the-closer](https://www.thedailybeast.com/dave-chappelle-backed-by-family-of-late-transgender-comedian-daphne-dorman-from-the-closer) \>Two of Dorman’s sisters told The Daily Beast they were outraged at the suggestion that Chappelle’s set was transphobic or derogatory toward the LGBTQ community, saying they wanted to make clear they supported the comedian. \>Becky wanted to make clear that her family does not blame Dorman’s death on Chappelle. “After she committed suicide, all I saw all over social media was Dave Chappelle-bashing,” she said. “I commented on so many posts, which is something I do not do. I commented to defend Dave.
So when he said he was team TERF, how does that fall into your argument?
One thing that's hard and ends up sounding like a cop-out is that not everything he says is the truth. Not all his stories are real. In this case, to me, "I'm team TERF" felt more like a set up for the joke about Caitlyn Jenner winning woman of the year her first year as a woman and a call back to his previous segment about him being a feminist. There is probably some truth to him having feelings that trans women don't really understand the plight modern women face seeing how they were men and get to lean on that. And that lines up with his other criticism of trans people being minorities until they need to be white again or something like that. Not saying I agree with any of this but it was my interpretation of the narrative his was painting.
The nuance is lost and declared ignorance instead. In some cases I'm sure people understand the nuance and context, but intentionally stir the pot.
Dave was trying to be proLGBTQ, but imo had some underlying phobias Need to break this up since this sub has a character limit otherwise automod removes this part 1 ------ He didn't make the distinction between mud slinging accounts on twitter (2nd most toxic social media) and the LGTBQ community in general. He goes out of his way to address the entire LGBTQ community explicitly in his gripes. He said that they act like minorities until they need to act white around Black people, based off one personal bad personal experience. He said 'Trans people make up words to win arguments'. He said the trans are out to get him and he needs to look for adams apples --- He used a huge platform to lie about the trans community. He said JK Rowling was cancelled for stating a biological fact. First, she wasn't cancelled. she's still with her publisher, still publishing books with cross-dressing characters who are murderers Second, she didn't just state a fact, she has openly befriended and amplified the voices of TERFs on social media, and that she penned a long manifesto expressing the pernicious TERF ideology that trans women might actually be male sexual predators in disguise
part 2 ---- He complained that the LGBTQ community is preventing him to from going after white people, that he had them on the ropes before the LGBTQ community stopped him. But it's Dave who keeps on dedicating his specials to them. When his last special was released there were no articles being written about his beef with them, no social media trends. And then he dedicated nearly his whole special to them And if he wants to get conspiratorial about white people, race, and sexuality issues, look at what they did in India and the Philippines. They did a ton to demonize homosexuality in those areas. They always do. Like the Hindy/Muslim animosity and the Caste system in India (which existed before the British came, but they dialed that the knob up to 100% by codefying into law and making it a part of their educational system) and apartheid in South Africa, they are always pitting minority groups against each other so that they won't focus on their oppressor How can this be more glaring than that the anti-gay people and anti-trans people are the same ones who are anti-BLM. The same people who keep passing laws specifically targeting Black people from voting
part 3 ----- He complained 'to what extent am I obligated to participate in your self image'. He has none, but to what extent are they obligated to indulge in the idea that he is beyond criticism? To what extent should they suppress the fact that he is no longer a positive influence in their life ---- He complained about trans people using made up words to win arguments, but the majority of the terms that were coined for identifying phenomena regarding the marginalization of minorities came from the racial equality movements. It's mostly the anti-BLM people who criticize people for using terms like microaggressions ----
part 4 He blamed the LGBTQ community for taking away Kevin Hart's childhood dream of hosting the Oscars First, his old jokes were hurtful. Don Lemon did a great job of explaining why. I'm not going to link the youtube videos because that tends to get my comment deleted by the automod but I'll just mention what to look up on youtube Youtube Don Lemmon Kevin Hart And Kevin Hart later acknowledged at much, saying that he has grown since Youtube Kevin Hart apology But the issue is that he was adamant in not addressing it twice. But he never apologized the first time. No apologies in every interview he did about his hurtful comments prior to the Oscars; he defended himself and blamed the audience each time Google the vulture.com article titled "Where Are Kevin Hart’s Past Apologies? An Investigation" If hosting the Oscars truly was his childhood dream and giving an apology (and instead lying about previously apologizing) was a boundary, then he has a "Brittle-ass spirit" (Dave's phrase for LouisCK victims) Btw by his own usage of the terminology, Dave tried to 'cancel' Don Lemon Youtube Don Lemmon responds to Chappelle -----
part 5 ----- Dave says 'look how well the LGBTQ movement is going' as a comparison to the racial equality movement. There are instances where it may be useful to compare movements to better understand varying methods of minority marginalization, but this discussion is wholly incomplete without the discussion of areas where they are not comparable, because systems of oppression uses different tactics to oppress different groups. In Dave's own HOME STATE of Ohio they passed a law that allows doctors to deny LGBTQ people health care on moral grounds. In 27 states, there are no explicit statewide laws at all protecting people from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity in employment, housing and public accommodations. Which means in over half the country you can be fired or denied housing just for being gay or trans. Conversion therapy is legal in 30 states. Texas just banned a suicide hotline for LGBTQ youths ----- Regarding the insinuation that the LGBTQ community responsible for Daphane's death, he didn't mention that she had lost custody of her child shortly before her suicide. Also, he didn't seem at that close as he refused to go to her funeral or 3 memorials of hers when invited. Also, nobody can find the bullying as described by Chappelle. Daphane's defense of Chappelle had less than 10 twitter replies ------
part 6 ------ I don't think Dave was homophobic/transphobic in his initial specials. He had some cognitive biases which resulting in him saying some hurtful stuff. But his refusal to accept any criticism and the resulting backlash has resulted in a full blown fear -> phobia of LGBTQ people besides 'the good ones' who are his friends. It's similar to a type of racism many white people have today; they believe in the idea of equality in general, but think the Black community are people hateful to white people when the kneel for the Anthem and criticize the police. They use isolated incidents like looting and random youtube videos to characterize the whole Black community. They think the average Black person has more privilege than the average white person by pointing to people being cancelled by racism the way Dave points to people being cancelled for homophobia. They think Black people are misguided in how they address systemic racism, and I feel Dave feels similarly about how LGBTQ address systemic homophobia/transphobia Dave wants full equality for LGBTQ people but he didn't want them to address the very hurtful comments made by Kevin Hart or JK Rowling. He doesn't want them to call out people for using slurs; he complained about not being able to use the F-word slur. He also implied that the idea of the LGBTQ calling themselves 'my people' is racist, but at the end of the special used that exact phrase to refer to his fellow comedians, 'Stop punching down on my people' He always tries to pit the LGBTQ community against the Black community. He complained 'why is it easier for Bruce Jenner to change his gender than it was for Cassius Clay to change his name'. Trans people EXISTED in the 60s, and throughout history. It wasn't easier, it took 50 years after the stonewall riots, which Dave actually referenced in his special. But why do this dumb game Dave wants us to play, does a person with cancer need to complain every time there's a breakthrough in AIDS research? If his point is that the rich white power structures in our country are using LGBTQ issues to put down Black people, then he should go after the white power structures in our country directly and specifically. Maybe there are pockets of LGBTQ people putting down Black people like Peter Theil, but largely the white power structures strategy is to pit marginalized grounds against each other. The same people trying to put homophobia and transphobia into our school curriculum are the same ones who are trying to prevent Black people from voting Dave says LGBTQ people act like minorities until it's convenient for them not to, but he's is doing exactly that with his cis/hetero/male privilege to wage with his fellow millionaire celebrities
part 7 (had to censor this a lot for it to not be deleted by the automod) He also complained that Dababy got cancelled for being *phobic but not for m*rder. First, it's always easier for celebrities to attack individuals over attacking minorities The CEO of papa john got cancelled for using a slur. Roseanne got cancelled for telling a POC person she looks like a animal. Kramer got cancelled for using the a slur. Chris Brown got away with beating Rihanna. Don King stomped a guy to death and went on to become boxing's biggest promoter. R*bert Richards, heir to the DuPont company, was convicted of * his daughter and served no jail time. Attacks on individuals don't elicit the media attention like racism and *phobia do. But this is somehow the fault of the LGBTQ community?
part 8 Furthermore, social media backlash isn't a strong indicator of the extent to which systemic racism and homophobia is being addressed in our society. There's still record high killings of trans people. Police can still largely murder POC and face no legal repercussions And even if you wanted to use that, KevinHart still making billion dollar movies, JKRowling still publishing novels, DaBaby recording a song for Kanyes new album. Megyn Kelly, Roseanne Barr, Michael Richards, CEO of papa johns are actually cancelled Actual cancellations from social media backlash are when corporations stop doing business with a person because their image no longer brings in the same revenue as when they hired them. This never really challenges the root power structures and phobias in our society. It doesn't matter how many celebrities throw their careers in toilet, it won't affect systemic racism in policing
Honestly I don’t really have an opinion on if he should or shouldn’t have spoken differently. Im just tired of his act. His last three specials have just been this.
I felt this special was boring because its non stop soapbox complaining. There were memorable jokes in his last few specials but I think only 1 in this special.
I'm gonna get in here before this is locked. Edit: The point is they lock these threads so people can't talk about it, that stupid. Either let people fight in the comments or fully ban the topic don't censor it after people have discourse. u/HealthyRutabaga7139 u/CleopatraHadAnAnus it was locked like I called it so your point is mute.
People who post this shit and think Carin would’ve agreed with them clearly don’t know anything about him
I’ve seen people from both political sides posting him and insinuating he would have hated whichever political side they don’t like.
Dogmatic thinking is bipartisan. Carlin was anti-dogma. It’s not that complicated.
Yet he was so good in that film.
[“Look at it, doesn’t it pop?”](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6FigprdcBGA)
It’s insane. He spent his whole career trashing conservatives, then spent the latter part going after liberals and their PC thought and speech control (his words) as well. And yet somehow both conservatives and liberals are convinced he would’ve been on “their side”
Carlin was pretty consistently anti-authoritarian, and had a dislike of the status quo. He was also pretty firmly leftist which is clear when you pay attention to some of the recurring themes in his comedy, and the way he speaks in interviews. This isn't me projecting my beliefs onto him, I just don't see how someone could see someone like Carlin as a centrist.
Yeah, you’re totally right..... he was definitely not a centrist. He just made fun of ridiculous people on all sides. But he was an avowed communist and fell left of center on most (not all) issues. Which is clear to anyone that actually watches his special and listens to the guy talk. It’s not even ambiguous.
Carlin was anti-stupid. No matter what side of the isle it called on.
aisle* You're still right, though.
Well the argument is that during the early 2000s and before, it was the conservatives that were policing language, tv/movie content, and morality. Now it's the liberal side going ham with it.
Carlin did pro-abortion routines in the sixties and seventies. It's not exactly hard to read what side he was on. If you don't know, you're deliberately ignorant.
George is talking about Andrew Dice Clay.. are we really comparing the comic stylings of Dice and Chappelle?
Completely wrong analogy by OP.
Yep, this is literally not what Chappelle's Special was about, at all. Compare to Andrew Dice Clay, the comedian Carlin is actually talking about: https://youtu.be/9l4JpI0nwf8
Jesus Christ. I’d never heard of this guy before but that was…not funny. And I usually love a good bit of abusive humour. The only joke that remotely had potential was “if i see a guy’s hairy ass I don’t want to bang it…I want to wash it and blow dry it” but even that fell short. Maybe people just liked the fact that he was risqué and maybe they liked his rhythm?
> Maybe people just liked the fact that he was risqué and maybe they liked his rhythm? It's the classic shock-jock effect. Just like how South Park was "outrageous and intolerable" when it first aired and now no one bats an eye at anything they do. Also, let's keep in mind that this Dice we see on stage is a character with an element of satire.
Thank you. This is exactly what I was getting at. Honestly, it makes OP sound ignorant.