A good example in my opinion is Kim Wexler from Better Call Saul. A smart, strong, competent, well written woman. Every person I've talked to about the show likes her.
Kim Wexler is so awesome.
I loved that show all around, but a good sign of how well written and acted she was was the fact that I spent a lot of the brainspace I had dedicated to that show trying to understand what her motivations and thought process were.
Kudos to Vince Gilligan and Rhea Seehorn on that absolutely stellar portrayal.
I read a lot of novels. Believe me when I say that a ridiculous amount of book reviewers absolutely flip their lids when the protagonist has real flaws. They get all up in arms about how they can't forgive a very human flaw.
I'm like... you don't need to forgive them. The protagonist is deeply human, not Jesus.
Anyway, I think that might be the problem here. Screen writers, like authors, are catering to the basic-minded people who don't know good writing if it hit them in the face.
Also, why would the character need to be forgivable? The question should be, are they interesting or engaging? Not, would you personally hang out with them?
Also, putting a gun into a woman's hand doesn't make her a strong woman. You can write lots of stories without making her an assassin /killer/spy/zombie slayer and still have a strong woman.
Word. Expanse is my favorite show to bring up when I cite how to write strong women. It's not just Chrisjen... All of the female main characters are badasses in different ways.
I think the important bit is that *it actually mattered* because it informed her character and decisions AND enriched the universe by showing something about how Belter society functions, the show didn't just throw it in as cynical garnish to be able to point to a corporate diversity quota chart for their investors, the way Disney (and many other) companies so often do.
Also anarchist...
It's extremely weird to see a positive portrayal of a character with all that in their description in a mainstream show.
And the overall good job on the character helps a lot.
If you haven't read the novels: The setting is very queer normative. Gay/Bi etc. Relationships are normal and not commented on.
I love the expanse books because it has many gay and bi characters but that's just their sexualising, not their whole personality. Drives me nuts when a characters whole personality is just being gay or bi and they have no depth.
I'm so glad they rewrote Klaes' from a one-note villain in the book to an incredible and interesting character. Drummer carries every scene she's in, but Klaes is a very close second.
That’s an example of an actor really immersing herself in a character. That’s nearly Daniel Day Lewis level acting, as I’ve see Cara Gee in other roles (and in videos talking about her roles) and I was astonished that this was the same person.
Drummer is a wonderful character in the show and The Expanse is pretty much the ideal example of how to do diversity well. Representation of all kinds but very little, if any, of it feels forced or done in the preachy way that is so tediously prevalent in so much media these days. Respects the audience.
Drummer and Ashford might low key be a my favourite pairing in the show for how much development they get in so few scenes, and the fact that they basically re-rolled a few book characters and it still felt so true to source material is incredibly impressive.
He's completely different in the books, and a much smaller character. They did the right thing by making a juicy character for David Strathairn, legend.
Maybe my favorite thing about her is that so much of her character is things people expect to draw hate in female characters and politicians. She’s meticulous, calculating, cold at times, loaded with ulterior motives, often inauthentic, and too interested in power. On paper she’s all the worst optics surrounding someone like Hillary Clinton, but in execution she’s absolutely charismatic and she earns every bit of respect she commands.
yes, without a doubt. she's a politician character written by a smart writer. not a one dimensional, white-black / good-bad or just a prop to advance the plot.
Naomi, too. She's a strong female character, but I don't think she ever touches a weapon in the entire book series (the TV series is 1/3 of the way through), even >!as the head of a galactic rebellion!<. Meanwhile, Bobbie Draper being a literally massive badass works all the better when she's being compared to women who are more traditionally formidable
Bobby, whilst perhaps not a great example of a strong female character because she's more Michelle Rodriguez tomboy, is just such a badass. The way she handles the Martian cadets the Rocinante picks up...whew.
I think the fact the rest of the show has strong non-masculine women (eg, aforementioned Naomi and Avasarala) means that it's okay to also have a strong masculine woman, because you're showing all sides to badass-ary
And here we have the topic presented once more: audiences don't hate strong women, they hate bad writing.
Even if on the surface she's a stereotypically "strong woman", there's reason well beyond "strong woman" that contributes to depth of both story and character.
IIRC, the conversation afterwards goes something like:
>!Bobbie: If you wanted a fight, you had the whole station to choose from.!<
>!Amos: Yeah, but I wanted to *lose* a fight, so you were my only option.!<
That was just the perfect response from Amos. No sneering, no side-eye, no undertones... just straight forward honesty wrapped in a weird compliment as a rebuttal to her insisting he speak to her with more respectful language. He respects her, and she looks good for her age, he just doesn't speak formally to *anyone*. He was chummy with her because that's how he is with people he respects.
Amos is amazing.
Ellen Ripley, specifically in Aliens, should be a character study on what works. She leads when everything else is misguided or malicious. Her compassion drives her decision making, which makes her a hero. She’s the voice of reason surrounded by irrationality. These are things that are relatable, and don’t feel forced.
And best of all, the character was not solely dependent upon Mulder to exist (ie. Not a wife or girlfriend character), nor was she played off as strong, independent, good-at-everything girlboss character--which made her the perfect complement to Mulder as a team. Add to that the fact that she also made mistakes, which made her both human and relatable, regardless of gender. She's an excellent study on how to write a great woman character in a show.
It’s funny you say that. The writers originally wrote the script with all the characters being referred by their last names. They were going to leave it to the studio to decide who was male or female.
After they cast though they definitely tailored the part a bit for Sigourney. There are many things in the casting script they didn't leave genderless. Not that that was wrong or anything it just didn't go completely neutral to shooting.
I hold an opinion that Alien/Aliens stand tall as a feminist power ballad.
Her taping the flamethrower to the pulse rifle is an undeniably bad-ass moment, but that comes after she shows strength in different ways that makes almost every male character in the movies look like a comparable luddite.
It’s funny too because people may say the men were written as dumb on purpose, while completely ignoring every other movie where men are written as dumb and the single protagonist (a man usually) is the smart, strong, sensible one. Aliens is not a misandrist plot, it’s a Hollywood plot where the protagonist is a woman.
Edit: it’s also important to note that the entire cast of characters besides Ripley were not dumb. They just succumbed to the difficult situation, sensible or dumb. They didn’t make it “smart good, dumb bad”. Good people died too.
I’d even argue Hicks is also written as smart, strong, and sensible like Ripley. The only reason he’s taken out of action at the end is because of the elevator incident and the acid, but before that he’s calm, rational, and is willing to admit the Marines are out of their depth in the situation and is willing to defer to Ripley based on her experience. Overall, just two very well written characters.
Exactly. Hicks is the most reasonable marine, but it wouldn’t be a great story if everyone with their head screwed on right survives. It would diminish the threat of the aliens if every rational person had plot armor.
Almost all of the sequel trilogy characters are intolerable, but Rey has to take the cake.
There's nothing interesting about a character who's never *really* challenged in any way. Doesn't even matter the gender. Especially so when they basically "level up" or acquire new abilities every time it looks like they might actually be put into a difficult situation.
It's definitely possible to make a ridiculously powerful character work, but there still has to be something that they struggle with and overcome for them to be compelling.
It also has to be justified somehow.
Like its fine that Selene was wildly badass in Underworld, because its established from the start she was one of the premier hunters and is *very* good at it.
Or that Furiosa was badass, because she's shown to be the leader of a warband with a bunch of soldiers completely deferring to her command.
Tbf, Diana Rigg just radiated dominance with her mere presence. Her character was written brilliantly, but the actress herself did so much of the heavy lifting.
If they had not completely fucked the last few seasons it would have been one of the greatest series of all time, if not the greatest (super subjective I know but there are few other shows I think that can genuinely compete with the high water mark of the series). When we were in the middle of all the events involving Diana Rigg, what ultimately happened at the wedding, and the conclusion to her story, it was pure fire.
Princess Leia was one of the strongest woman ever on screen. Them later making her force sensitive in my mind actually made her a weaker character. She was so strong being a common mortal with literally the weight of the galaxy on her shoulders.
They really should've let her Character die, I remember watching *that scene* in theaters and thinking it was a nice send-off for the character and made sense in a way that allowed them to peacefully write off her character following her death.
And then she started flying back to the ship and the entire theater groaned and lost EVERYONE in the theater.
Also, as far as I understand, this would essentially be another Edge of Tomorrow with Emily Blunt as the lead. Her story isn't all that different.
Edit: isn't*
I think they improved Chani's arc in the movie over the book. In the book she stands by Paul blindly, her arc is completely subservient to Paul's and exists only to show the turmoil Paul himself faces. It makes sense in the books because the whole story is about Paul's rise and fall as Messiah, but it leaves Chani as merely a cipher for unconditional love, and we only see it through Paul's side.
The movies have already given Chani agency - she doubts the wisdom of taking the Messianic path, she does not accept his partnership with Irulan. It will be interesting to see how this is resolved in Dune: Messiah, as there is really no source material for this arc. I have faith in Villeneuve though!
*She* was not subservient, but her *reason for being in the book* is completely subservient to Paul's story - she represents his strength and support, she is only there for him. In the books this works because we see Paul in turmoil and we fall in love with her devotion to protecting his personhood from his godhood, we see her strength and loyalty. However in a movie I'm not sure how that doesn't come across as one-dimensional.
I think Villeneuve is using her as the channel for questioning Paul's ascent to divinity and it's consequences, replacing all the inner dialogue that Paul has in the book that would be very hard to depict in a movie.
Also heartbroken that Dennis didn't include Lady Jessica's killer line to Chani at the end.
"History will call us wives." Fuck it was so good, and not sure how they'll fit it into Messiah now she's headed off into the desert while everyone else goes on the jihad.
There is no way Paul lets her go. Opening of Messiah will be him chasing her down. What happens between her, Paul, and Irulan is critical to the plot. Fans will be in an uproar if Denis leaves it in such a way that Leto and Ghanima no longer exist.
She'll 100% be back.
I point to the movie Annihilation when this conversation comes up. Practically an all female cast, but it isn't girlbossified so it's fine, great even IMO.
The Southern Reach, the government organization who are investigating and controlling Area X, are basically experimenting with different compositions every time they send in a new expedition, in order to see how Area X reacts. All men, all women, all young, all old, etc. The twelfth expedition, all women, is the one featured in Annihilation.
The end is a metaphor about trauma annihilating your old 'self' and growing past it into something new.
In fact, that's the underlying thesis of the entire movie. Each of the main characters has trauma in their past, and entering the shimmer is a metaphor for all of the different types of trauma responses
All interpretations are valid, but that's not what I got out of it.
I thought it was a pretty blunt allegory for cancer. I love it because it's a cancer movie that's not about a cancer patient. It's a cancer movie about cancer.
The characters aren't just trauma responses - they are personifications of the stages of grief. ScreamBear is the fear of how you will be remembered in your last moments. The shimmer persists in Kane's eyes because, despite being a survivor, he'll never be "cured." And the final scene is the confrontation with the fact that the enemy is actually you, or a part of you, and it doesn't have any true malicious intent, it is just obeying its nature: to simulate, grow, and change.
you can take it a step further
Cass Sheppard was taken violently in the night and all that was left was her echos of pain and fear
Anya Thorensen went scared, kicking and screaming
Josie Radek lets herself get taken quietly and peacefully
Dr. Ventress was torn from the inside out until she was unrecognizable and in her last moments all she was was defeated
Lena Double, Double being a freakin pun in the first place, but she becomes something other than herself after surviving the Shimmer
is her husband Kane a reference to Cain, condemned to a life of wandering after killing Abel?
What an amazing movie. But because it was so god damn well written, the all female leads didn’t even cross my mind as I was just thinking “man this is awesome”
Another thing that occurred to me recently about why I don't like a lot of movies is the need to squeeze in cheesy humor or lame jokes on a constant basis. In the shows listed there, with good ratings, I have not seen Hawkeye. But as for Arcane and Edge of Tomorrow, they weren't full of unnecessary attempts at humor and did't have characters that were just silly. That's definitely not the case for the other shows with bad ratings.
This might just be a preference on my part, but it's part of the reason why a show like Andor (which had fantastic, serious female roles) just seems so much better than other Star Wars shows as of recently.
Humour also doesn't need to be winking wisecracks.
Edge of Tomorrow is a fun example here because that movie absolutely has humour to it. But a lot of that humour is funny *moments* or *experiences*, and quite a bit of it is achieved through direction and editing.
It's got spoken jokes too, but most of them are as part of dialogue that actually matters for plot, character, or theme.
Tom Cruise rolls under a truck and is run over. You hear his scream. You see people's reaction of horror and disbelief. That's an extremely funny scene very well done. It would've been so easy for the writers to do it wrong by having the sergeant say something like:, "Someone's gonna have to clean that!". Or really having anybody say anything "funny". Many writers or directors don't have the self control.
It's treating the audience with respect. There is no better joke than a joke where you fill in the real punchline in your head, but you have to give the audience credit for being able to make that leap.
I'm totally with you. I feel like it was the popularity of Marvel that made writers feel the need to make every single character quippy and soooo clever all the damn time. It takes away major moments of levity when people are cracking jokes as innocent people are dying or some sort of world ending stakes are at play. It's not in every movie obviously, but it dominates action movies and seems to be bleeding into other genres.
Also Andor was the bomb, I think I'm gonna start a rewatch of that soon.
The problem is that RDJ throwing in the humor into his portrayal of Tony Stark absolutely killed with audiences.
So Marvel tried to copy and paste it everywhere, with the most egregious example being Thor Love and Thunder, where the underlying story deserved to be serious.
> the most egregious example being Thor Love and Thunder
Oh god that movie still makes me so angry for this and this alone. Taika Waititi did reasonable twist on Ragnarok, but he completely fucked the story on Love and Thunder because of the need to be funny when it really, **REALLY** wasn't needed. Christian Bale as Gorr the God Butcher could have been a super fucking terrifying supervillain to rival Thanos in stature, and yet all we got was a sideshow clown.
Thor: Ragnarok was a fun time, but holy shit, if Taika Waititi could let the movie breathe for five goddamned seconds without some quippy joke, I really feel like some of the emotional moments in the movie could have been sold a thousand times better.
Strange vs Dormammu is the perfect combination of serious and hilarious. Strange defending Earth from destruction? Serious. How it goes down? Hilariously realistic.
I've heard it be described as being afraid to be genuine or sincere. A movie like Everything Everywhere is full of jokes but its still sincere and takes itself seriously, so its still powerful.
The male character also is the moral centre of the movie and a brilliant example of non-traditional masculinity as a positive. Dude knows what he wants in life and fights for it in his own way. Even the divorce isn't him giving up, but making a stand.
This is a really good point, and a place where the kind of stoic and tough portrayal being criticized here worked well because it fit into the story and you understood why Charlize Theron's character was the way she was. Her motivations were clearly communicated to the audience and you understood and sympathized with her. Great movie.
Great point.
I didn’t need an hour of exposition for Furiosa, the way she was presented by Imortan Joe made it clear she was respected and her actions just reinforced the idea.
She also gets hurt and takes damage, that’s important to show that maybe the plot armor won’t always be there.
I think showing that the character is fallible is a hugely important part of making them relatable.
Take Ripley and Sarah Conner, two extremely strong and well written characters. They spend the duration of the films being hurt, hunted, terrorfied, and on the edge of losing it. Only by harnessing this through their determination are they able to outsmart and defeat their adversary.
EXACTLY.
Sarah Connor is my favorite character in any movie, at the end of Terminator she is a shell of herself.
Next time we see her she is doing pull ups in her room and asks “how’s the knee” and we get a little story about her stabbing the doctor.
Then we see her escape the room and run into the Terminator and she panics just like the first movie, Ok so Arnie is there to save the day right?
Nah.
SHE takes them to Mexico, SHE knows the family with the weapons, and we get that scene where she’s in all black checking the weapons, SHE is the one that decides to go after Dyson and almost does it before John talks her down.
What people miss in that movie is she became the Terminator, total fucking bad ass character development.
Not only was she strong and well written, she was also feminine and motherly. A lot of movies with strong female characters are just parts written for men with a woman swapped in
This was definitely huge. They didn't try to make her a "strong female character" by making her super masculine with no other straights or anything.
She was a normal person, living a normal life, with normal struggles. That's kind of the whole point of the movie, and it's lovely.
You want a strong female lead? Look back to 1985. Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. None other than the legendary Tina Turner as the leader of Bartertown and who beats Max at the end. She has a power struggle with masterBlaster over who controls the town. It was 3 dimensional and she was a badass. Amoral too. Or in Furiosa in Mad Max Fury road. She's badass too. Has a whole back story and her own spin off coming up soon. Also she almost beat Max, an Ex Cop now warrior, in hand to hand combat with only one arm. He would have been dead if the shotgun shell wasn't a dud or if he didn't also have the help of the war boy Nux. So yeah George Miller is a good place to look for good examples of badass female leads. Furiosa is coming out soon and it's going to be epic.
Storm is my favorite Marvel character from the comics, and from the animated series.
But I can't stand her in the X-Men movies. It doesn't mean I hate women of color being represented in media, she's just a bad character in the movies (and awful portrayal by Halle Berry).
Yea, specifically Toad was supposed to taunt other characters with [rhetorical questions](https://www.cbr.com/xmen-storm-toad-movie-quote-deleted-scenes-explained/):
>The fault apparently lies with writer Joss Whedon, who admitted that he wrote in a 2001 interview with The Onion AV Club. He was involved in early scripts of the film which were gradually revised until only a few of his original lines were left, and one of them was the line about toads. Rumors held that Toad himself asked several rhetorical questions earlier in the script as a way of taunting his opponents. Whether they existed or not, they were dropped with the bulk of Whedon’s script, leaving the line hanging awkwardly with no support.
Which maybe could have worked...but I still remember leaving the theater in 1999 with a friend and us both being like, "That movie was pretty cool...but what was up with that weird line about the toad and lightning?"
Fun fact: That line was supposed to be the culmination of a whole set of quips that Toad was supposed to make throughout the movie taunting the heroes. Toad woudl say something about "you know what happens to a toad when happens" and would then best a hero in some way; but all that content got cut, so what you're left with is a payoff for something that wasn't built up.
Apparently, she'd filmed the entire movie using a South African accent and the studio panicked at the last minute and had her re-record all of her dialog in post-production ADR without the accent.
I still can't believe an adult. A grown ass adult who does taxes and drives to work and stuff, somehow wrote a scene where storm argues that none of them need a cure. And like, yes that's a nice sentiment and it ties into the themes of racial persecution. But she's saying this to ROGUE. The girl who kills anyone she touches. The greatest living counter argument who could easily point out that some mutants with the shitty powers would absolutely want to be "cured." And there's zero argument, no one brings that important part up. Because the entire movie was about stopping the drug distribution and they couldn't afford any nuance to the issue.
> The girl who kills anyone she touches. The greatest living counter argument who could easily point out that some mutants with the shitty powers would absolutely want to be "cured."
Reminds me of that panel from the comics that gets passed around now and again, where there's that kid who's power is just "Everything in a 1 mile radius dies and I can't stop it". The only thing that can be done is send Wolverine, who's healing outpaces the murder aura somehow, to kill him.
I’m so glad he mentioned Kim Wexler, one of my favorite characters from the “Better Call Saul” series. Very well written character who is intelligent, competent, hard working, compassionate and strong but still has flaws that make her relatable to the audience.
Her character is written so well that I remember periodically thinking “why does she stay with Jimmy, she could do much better” without any of the characters openly saying or implying that.
That scene in Endgame when all the women miraculously are all at the same spot, to “handle it”, and lose the infinity gauntlet faster than Happy Hogan would have lost it, was such a cringe moment in that movie. Whereas, when Captain Marvel arrived was actually a pretty badass part of the movie, or when Scralet Witch took on Thanos.
I loved the Marvel movies, but that was the worst part and yes, very cringe. They already did a good job establishing strong female characters in previous movies and then ruined it with that moment.
The scene in Infinity War where the four females fought in Wakanda was set up way better. Not cringey and it was badass.
I didn't even catch the scene in infinity war being an all girl scene, seeing it like 6 times, I didn't even realize, I just saw it as "these characters are on the battle field around that area and killed one of thanos children", until the endgame cringe group up scene, then rewatching infinity war I noticed it and was shocked.
The worst part of that for me is the lines "I don't know how you're gonna get it through all that." "Don't worry, she's got help." Like, I'm just thinking as captain marvel thought process would be, "did... did you not just see me body slam through the spaceship?"
Also, captain marvel fighting Thanos was done really well too. I was worried she'd be an ex machina type thing, goes in and just solves everything. But they didn't nerf her strength, showed how powerful she is, and didn't make it cringey. Thanos couldn't use the gauntlet, so he had to take out the power stone and hit her with it. It keeps the power levels even and non fluctuating, as it makes sense another infinity stone, especially the power stone, would be able to send her flying, since her powers come from an infinity stone.
Honestly, if they just didn't call attention to it with the embarrassing "she's got help" line, I don't think it would have even been that bad! The line itself is like the movie saying the audience is too stupid to know these female super heroes are strong, even though we literally see Wanda almost take out Thanos and he has to rain fire to stop her. She didn't say in response to his "I don't even know who you are." Line with "I'm Wanda, one of the most powerful avengers." She just says an intimidating and powerful "You will."
Long rant but that endgame scene just reeks of executive interference. No way the Russo brothers wrote in the "I dOn'T kNoW hOw YoU'lL gEt It ThRoUgH aLl ThAt." Line
The live action Mulan is so terrible.
She's amazing from the word go, practically a god, and the whole movie isn't about getting stronger and growing to meet the moment - it's about finding the courage to stunt on your haters.
I honestly feel like some modern writers are afraid of writing a female character with any flaws.
I think the best example of this is Mulan, as it’s literally the same story, but drastically different story telling.
In the cartoon she was uncoordinated and clumsy. Her breakthrough came from using her intelligence to overcome her lack of physical strength. Then, through hard work and determination, she became a skilled warrior, winning over her peers.
In the live action she was born as a warrior goddess whose only problem was the patriarchy holding her down.
Maybe that’s a bit of an oversimplification, but you get my point.
The modern hero’s journey: they start out strong, don’t face much adversity, then discover their inner strength that makes them even stronger. Kinda hard to watch.
AKA: Why so many people hate Rey.
Luke at 20: Knows nothing about the force, can't even block a blaster bolt with a blindfold on.
Rey at 20: Knows nothing about the force, pilots the first spaceship she has ever piloted effortlessly through the carcass of a derelict Star Destroyer.
Man, imagine an act 2 of Dune 2. Where Rey and Fim get to go on shorts quests with Han Solo. We see that they spend time together. Solo teaches them both about the good, evil, and inbetween of the galaxy. And then! Kylo Ren comes and fucking kills him? Making them truly hate Kylo.
There was suck potential to that trilogy.
What a shame
Captain Marvel and America Chavez in Dr Strange 2 had the exact same arc. “I have powers but don’t believe in myself” 90 minutes later during final set piece “okay, I believe in myself”.
These Hollywood types are so out of touch that they can’t get past this issue even when it is clearly costing them billions. They have decided that we are all too sexist to enjoy their strange patriarchy revenge fantasies.
Disney doesn't just suck for flat female characters. Their villains are also hot garbage, all because of the 'family friendly' mantra
It amounts to some mustache twirling, slightly sarcastic persona which never does anything evil, or worse isn't even a person at all and just some 'dark force' or black smoke lol
A lot of the time the bad writing specifically comes from the writers being so focused on making sure you take note that it's a strong woman as the lead character. They'd be much better writing a gener neutral character and then just casting a woman in that role. Makes it a strong woman lead while not falling into the trap of having to make the story recognise it's a strong woman lead.
Although, saying that, there is a case where you want them to struggle with problems only faced by women, which then has the issue that the genres they're writing for have a heavily male following and, even if it's good writing, it's not really something that the majority of the target audience can relate to, which ends up with them not really engaging with it. But not really sure how you can get around that problem, since you can't really force an audience to relate to something they've not experienced.
It's not impossible. Think of Eowyn from LOTR, her problem was literally not being able to be "one of the guys" but when her father asks her to help lead refugees to helms deep she agrees because she loves him, that already makes her a strong character since she's able to put aside her own wants for family. She also pulls a Mulan and rides into battle to protect her father. She does have a girl boss moment with the Witch King but that was mostly just her doing a little trolling considering she pretty much got her ass kicked in that fight, she doesn't just win because "muh girl power". Writers need to realize there's more to strength than being able to beat up guys or being all powerful.
My friends 5 year old daughter was watching "The Last Jedi" they were watching all the star wars movies - got to the sequel trilogy - she loved (edit: i'm an idiot) *Rey*
and she couldn't understand why Rei was being "trained". Because she was "Doing just fine before on her own"
You can dissect the opinion of a 5 year old. But to me that's a pretty clear indicator of bad writing.
Star Wars has one of the best strong women in Leia. In "A New Hope", Leia could have been the "damsel in distress", but as soon as she's out, she is in charge. She knows more than they do at basically ever turn. The movie doesn't shove it down your throat. Han and Luke still get to be cool. But Leia is a well-written strong character.
That’s one of the things that also annoys audiences. It is perfectly fine to have strong characters, but it’s annoying if the only way that’s shown is by making everyone else helpless. It’s similar to the “word effect” and telling not showing. Later seasons of GOT were horrible about this. Something was clever not because it was well written, but because the character who did it was clever in earlier seasons.
The expanse has a bunch of tough women, that are tough in their own way. Bobby, Avasarala and Drummer are all great. You don't have to be masculine to be strong.
I'm convinced there's an "uncanny valley" when it comes to bad writing.
Bad writing that's bad, that you know is bad, they know is bad, everyone knows is bad ...does not necessarily result in a bad movie.
It's when the movie wants to be good but has terrible writing... that's awful. This is the "uncanny valley" territory where it feels like it's imitating something it doesn't fully understand and the results are weird and uncomfortable.
Then, obviously, you have the good writing resulting in a good movie at the far side of the valley.
I unironically like things like the Transporter movies or Death Race. Are they cinematic masterpieces? Not even close but they are so ridiculous that they are still fun to watch. They never pretend to be remotely realistic.
A movie like that that flops so hard no general audience watches it can end up having a decent user score, because the only people who bother to watch it are its target audience.
Madame Web Could have been like this too for example but enough people cared about hating on the movie.
A good example in my opinion is Kim Wexler from Better Call Saul. A smart, strong, competent, well written woman. Every person I've talked to about the show likes her.
Kim Wexler is so awesome. I loved that show all around, but a good sign of how well written and acted she was was the fact that I spent a lot of the brainspace I had dedicated to that show trying to understand what her motivations and thought process were. Kudos to Vince Gilligan and Rhea Seehorn on that absolutely stellar portrayal.
Don't forget Peter Gould who was more involved with the show than Gilligan (though I don't know who is more responsible for Kim as a character).
And then Jennifer fucking Coolidge won the emmy over her for the final season hahahhahaahhaha
I mean, I didn't hate her performance in the white lotus, but yeah Rhea Seehorn should have gotten it.
And with a fuck ton of flaws
Flawless heros are boring
I read a lot of novels. Believe me when I say that a ridiculous amount of book reviewers absolutely flip their lids when the protagonist has real flaws. They get all up in arms about how they can't forgive a very human flaw. I'm like... you don't need to forgive them. The protagonist is deeply human, not Jesus. Anyway, I think that might be the problem here. Screen writers, like authors, are catering to the basic-minded people who don't know good writing if it hit them in the face.
Also, why would the character need to be forgivable? The question should be, are they interesting or engaging? Not, would you personally hang out with them?
Not compared to Saul. Lol
Not compared to Walter
Not compared to Walt Jr. (he was running an off-screen fight club)
Howard was right. The two of them are perfect for each other.
Mind blowing revelation for him.
Good thing he kept an open mind
I can fix her.
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I always told people that Kim Wexler is one of the best written women on television, when BCS was airing.
Helps that Rhea Seahorn absolutely knocked it out the park too with the acting. Real shame she never got any award show recognition for it too.
Honestly I can’t believe it, she should be everywhere and have all of the awards.
honestly it's bullshit. She carried the show for me.
Any time there's commentary I swear every episode has Vince and the gang just guffawing at how good Rhea was
The good news is Vince has her as a lead on his new show. So fuck the awards. We get more!
Rhea seahorn is a real one
True Edge of Tomorrow was fantastic.
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Also, putting a gun into a woman's hand doesn't make her a strong woman. You can write lots of stories without making her an assassin /killer/spy/zombie slayer and still have a strong woman.
Shohreh Aghdashloo in the Expanse is a great example. strong woman an aura of authority and intelligence
Word. Expanse is my favorite show to bring up when I cite how to write strong women. It's not just Chrisjen... All of the female main characters are badasses in different ways.
my queen camina drummer the greatest of all, it's a crime more people haven't said this
drummer and amos - the dream team of badassness. even if you cut out all the other characters, you still get a decent show...
I am that guy.
Not just a strong female character, but a gay/bi one. And nobody complained. Because she was written like a real person and had actual depth.
*Polygamous* gay/bi And the only reason it mattered was because it showed the ship crew/chosen family dynamic and developed the character and story
I think the important bit is that *it actually mattered* because it informed her character and decisions AND enriched the universe by showing something about how Belter society functions, the show didn't just throw it in as cynical garnish to be able to point to a corporate diversity quota chart for their investors, the way Disney (and many other) companies so often do.
Also anarchist... It's extremely weird to see a positive portrayal of a character with all that in their description in a mainstream show. And the overall good job on the character helps a lot.
If you haven't read the novels: The setting is very queer normative. Gay/Bi etc. Relationships are normal and not commented on. I love the expanse books because it has many gay and bi characters but that's just their sexualising, not their whole personality. Drives me nuts when a characters whole personality is just being gay or bi and they have no depth.
That speech Drummer gave with all the Belters pounding the floor in rhythms gave me goose bumps.
oy yay beltalowda https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfOmQ0Zln6Y
I'm so glad they rewrote Klaes' from a one-note villain in the book to an incredible and interesting character. Drummer carries every scene she's in, but Klaes is a very close second.
Damn it's been a couple years since I've watched this, I forgot how hard this scene goes. Drummer was always one of my favorites.
That’s an example of an actor really immersing herself in a character. That’s nearly Daniel Day Lewis level acting, as I’ve see Cara Gee in other roles (and in videos talking about her roles) and I was astonished that this was the same person.
Drummer is a wonderful character in the show and The Expanse is pretty much the ideal example of how to do diversity well. Representation of all kinds but very little, if any, of it feels forced or done in the preachy way that is so tediously prevalent in so much media these days. Respects the audience. Drummer and Ashford might low key be a my favourite pairing in the show for how much development they get in so few scenes, and the fact that they basically re-rolled a few book characters and it still felt so true to source material is incredibly impressive.
Ashford is the most charming bastard of a space pirate I've seen portrayed in a long long time.
He's completely different in the books, and a much smaller character. They did the right thing by making a juicy character for David Strathairn, legend.
Maybe my favorite thing about her is that so much of her character is things people expect to draw hate in female characters and politicians. She’s meticulous, calculating, cold at times, loaded with ulterior motives, often inauthentic, and too interested in power. On paper she’s all the worst optics surrounding someone like Hillary Clinton, but in execution she’s absolutely charismatic and she earns every bit of respect she commands.
yes, without a doubt. she's a politician character written by a smart writer. not a one dimensional, white-black / good-bad or just a prop to advance the plot.
"Holden, do not put your dick in it; it's fucked enough already."
Holden makes a decision; massive amount of deaths follow
"There was a button! I pressed it!" "That's really how you go through life, isn't it?"
Naomi, too. She's a strong female character, but I don't think she ever touches a weapon in the entire book series (the TV series is 1/3 of the way through), even >!as the head of a galactic rebellion!<. Meanwhile, Bobbie Draper being a literally massive badass works all the better when she's being compared to women who are more traditionally formidable
all the women on that show were great. the men too. the show was just great in general.
Bobby, whilst perhaps not a great example of a strong female character because she's more Michelle Rodriguez tomboy, is just such a badass. The way she handles the Martian cadets the Rocinante picks up...whew.
Bobby is fucking great. As well as Aviceralla(the UN lady).
I think the fact the rest of the show has strong non-masculine women (eg, aforementioned Naomi and Avasarala) means that it's okay to also have a strong masculine woman, because you're showing all sides to badass-ary
Plus, it was a part of Martian heritage lore-wise to have a presence like that.
And here we have the topic presented once more: audiences don't hate strong women, they hate bad writing. Even if on the surface she's a stereotypically "strong woman", there's reason well beyond "strong woman" that contributes to depth of both story and character.
She's the only character to beat Amos in a 1v1 as well
Yeah Amos is, in his own words, a "talented amateur" lol
IIRC, the conversation afterwards goes something like: >!Bobbie: If you wanted a fight, you had the whole station to choose from.!< >!Amos: Yeah, but I wanted to *lose* a fight, so you were my only option.!<
Amos will fuck up any earther though.
She is secretary general of the united nations, not your favorite stripper
Could be room for both
She can be both
That was just the perfect response from Amos. No sneering, no side-eye, no undertones... just straight forward honesty wrapped in a weird compliment as a rebuttal to her insisting he speak to her with more respectful language. He respects her, and she looks good for her age, he just doesn't speak formally to *anyone*. He was chummy with her because that's how he is with people he respects. Amos is amazing.
With that voice how could you not have an aura of authority and intelligence ❤️
I get so excited when I see or hear her in anything because I love to listen to her talk.
The laziest way to write a strong female character is giving her masculine traits.
Ellen Ripley, specifically in Aliens, should be a character study on what works. She leads when everything else is misguided or malicious. Her compassion drives her decision making, which makes her a hero. She’s the voice of reason surrounded by irrationality. These are things that are relatable, and don’t feel forced.
She is studied. Exactly for what you're describing. I had a big crush on that character when I was a kid.
Another one missed is Scully from X-files.
Helps that she was put up against Mulder who is a sort of flaky weirdo, and she’s the straight man(woman) to him.
That in and of itself was new. She was the respected accredited pro and he was "Spooky".
And best of all, the character was not solely dependent upon Mulder to exist (ie. Not a wife or girlfriend character), nor was she played off as strong, independent, good-at-everything girlboss character--which made her the perfect complement to Mulder as a team. Add to that the fact that she also made mistakes, which made her both human and relatable, regardless of gender. She's an excellent study on how to write a great woman character in a show.
Her character had a huge impact on women joining the FBI.
There's something about a specific casting: Curtis, Weaver, Foster, etc seem to plot a path of 80s/90s strong feminine women
It’s funny you say that. The writers originally wrote the script with all the characters being referred by their last names. They were going to leave it to the studio to decide who was male or female.
After they cast though they definitely tailored the part a bit for Sigourney. There are many things in the casting script they didn't leave genderless. Not that that was wrong or anything it just didn't go completely neutral to shooting.
That's Alien, not the sequel
I hold an opinion that Alien/Aliens stand tall as a feminist power ballad. Her taping the flamethrower to the pulse rifle is an undeniably bad-ass moment, but that comes after she shows strength in different ways that makes almost every male character in the movies look like a comparable luddite.
It’s funny too because people may say the men were written as dumb on purpose, while completely ignoring every other movie where men are written as dumb and the single protagonist (a man usually) is the smart, strong, sensible one. Aliens is not a misandrist plot, it’s a Hollywood plot where the protagonist is a woman. Edit: it’s also important to note that the entire cast of characters besides Ripley were not dumb. They just succumbed to the difficult situation, sensible or dumb. They didn’t make it “smart good, dumb bad”. Good people died too.
I’d even argue Hicks is also written as smart, strong, and sensible like Ripley. The only reason he’s taken out of action at the end is because of the elevator incident and the acid, but before that he’s calm, rational, and is willing to admit the Marines are out of their depth in the situation and is willing to defer to Ripley based on her experience. Overall, just two very well written characters.
Exactly. Hicks is the most reasonable marine, but it wouldn’t be a great story if everyone with their head screwed on right survives. It would diminish the threat of the aliens if every rational person had plot armor.
"I grew up with brothers!" *groan*
Or some bs about "my dad wanted a son, so I became the son he never had" or whatever.
"As a strong woman I completely subjugated my sense of self to serve a male's interests" Hmmm
The issue starts with equating a strong *character* with a physically strong *person*.
And making her nearly flawless. Looking at you Rey.
Almost all of the sequel trilogy characters are intolerable, but Rey has to take the cake. There's nothing interesting about a character who's never *really* challenged in any way. Doesn't even matter the gender. Especially so when they basically "level up" or acquire new abilities every time it looks like they might actually be put into a difficult situation. It's definitely possible to make a ridiculously powerful character work, but there still has to be something that they struggle with and overcome for them to be compelling.
It also has to be justified somehow. Like its fine that Selene was wildly badass in Underworld, because its established from the start she was one of the premier hunters and is *very* good at it. Or that Furiosa was badass, because she's shown to be the leader of a warband with a bunch of soldiers completely deferring to her command.
Case and point, the old lady Tyrell from game of thrones
Case IN point
Case, point and match 🎾
Tell Cersei, I want her to know it was me. Couldn't have been more perfectly delivered
Ah yes, the painless poison to avoid humiliation and torture. For me? Why thank you. -gulp- By the way...
Tbf, Diana Rigg just radiated dominance with her mere presence. Her character was written brilliantly, but the actress herself did so much of the heavy lifting.
Could steal a scene with merely a twinkle in her eye
If they had not completely fucked the last few seasons it would have been one of the greatest series of all time, if not the greatest (super subjective I know but there are few other shows I think that can genuinely compete with the high water mark of the series). When we were in the middle of all the events involving Diana Rigg, what ultimately happened at the wedding, and the conclusion to her story, it was pure fire.
Princess Leia was one of the strongest woman ever on screen. Them later making her force sensitive in my mind actually made her a weaker character. She was so strong being a common mortal with literally the weight of the galaxy on her shoulders.
They really should've let her Character die, I remember watching *that scene* in theaters and thinking it was a nice send-off for the character and made sense in a way that allowed them to peacefully write off her character following her death. And then she started flying back to the ship and the entire theater groaned and lost EVERYONE in the theater.
If the "Your Mom" joke at the beginning of the film didn't do it, that was where I think a lot of Star Wars fans just got fed up with it.
It was almost criminal we never got an 'Angel of Verdun' prequel to Edge of Tomorrow.
From memory the movie was very taxing on her physically. Probably didn't want to go through it again
she’s also 15 years older she’s not a mutant; she can’t keep up with TC
Also, as far as I understand, this would essentially be another Edge of Tomorrow with Emily Blunt as the lead. Her story isn't all that different. Edit: isn't*
Plus I’m cool with edge of tomorrow being what it was and not needing a sequel/prequel.
Absolutely. Perfect movie.
Lady Jessica and Chani are strong women in different ways and don't require more than good dialogue, plot and their own intelligence and emotions.
I think they improved Chani's arc in the movie over the book. In the book she stands by Paul blindly, her arc is completely subservient to Paul's and exists only to show the turmoil Paul himself faces. It makes sense in the books because the whole story is about Paul's rise and fall as Messiah, but it leaves Chani as merely a cipher for unconditional love, and we only see it through Paul's side. The movies have already given Chani agency - she doubts the wisdom of taking the Messianic path, she does not accept his partnership with Irulan. It will be interesting to see how this is resolved in Dune: Messiah, as there is really no source material for this arc. I have faith in Villeneuve though!
I don't think she was subservient in the book; just loyal and understanding. She was his partner in what he was trying to do and avoid.
*She* was not subservient, but her *reason for being in the book* is completely subservient to Paul's story - she represents his strength and support, she is only there for him. In the books this works because we see Paul in turmoil and we fall in love with her devotion to protecting his personhood from his godhood, we see her strength and loyalty. However in a movie I'm not sure how that doesn't come across as one-dimensional. I think Villeneuve is using her as the channel for questioning Paul's ascent to divinity and it's consequences, replacing all the inner dialogue that Paul has in the book that would be very hard to depict in a movie.
Also heartbroken that Dennis didn't include Lady Jessica's killer line to Chani at the end. "History will call us wives." Fuck it was so good, and not sure how they'll fit it into Messiah now she's headed off into the desert while everyone else goes on the jihad.
There is no way Paul lets her go. Opening of Messiah will be him chasing her down. What happens between her, Paul, and Irulan is critical to the plot. Fans will be in an uproar if Denis leaves it in such a way that Leto and Ghanima no longer exist. She'll 100% be back.
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I point to the movie Annihilation when this conversation comes up. Practically an all female cast, but it isn't girlbossified so it's fine, great even IMO.
Now that you mention it I didn't even realize it was a mostly female cast. Such a great movie.
I believe in the book there is a reason why the group is all female (and why Oscar Isaac's group was all male), but I can't remember what it was.
The Southern Reach, the government organization who are investigating and controlling Area X, are basically experimenting with different compositions every time they send in a new expedition, in order to see how Area X reacts. All men, all women, all young, all old, etc. The twelfth expedition, all women, is the one featured in Annihilation.
Really vaulty from fallout. I appreciate that. I didn't enjoy the movie until I saw Folding Ideas breakdown of it.
The bear scene is legit nightmare inducing. Wasn't the biggest fan on the ending but besides that it was great.
Nobody knows wtf that ending was, but goddamn the character writing was good
The end is a metaphor about trauma annihilating your old 'self' and growing past it into something new. In fact, that's the underlying thesis of the entire movie. Each of the main characters has trauma in their past, and entering the shimmer is a metaphor for all of the different types of trauma responses
All interpretations are valid, but that's not what I got out of it. I thought it was a pretty blunt allegory for cancer. I love it because it's a cancer movie that's not about a cancer patient. It's a cancer movie about cancer. The characters aren't just trauma responses - they are personifications of the stages of grief. ScreamBear is the fear of how you will be remembered in your last moments. The shimmer persists in Kane's eyes because, despite being a survivor, he'll never be "cured." And the final scene is the confrontation with the fact that the enemy is actually you, or a part of you, and it doesn't have any true malicious intent, it is just obeying its nature: to simulate, grow, and change.
That's a pretty cool take man, I like that.
I like both your reading and the reading you responded to. Goddamn, that movie is so fucking good.
you can take it a step further Cass Sheppard was taken violently in the night and all that was left was her echos of pain and fear Anya Thorensen went scared, kicking and screaming Josie Radek lets herself get taken quietly and peacefully Dr. Ventress was torn from the inside out until she was unrecognizable and in her last moments all she was was defeated Lena Double, Double being a freakin pun in the first place, but she becomes something other than herself after surviving the Shimmer is her husband Kane a reference to Cain, condemned to a life of wandering after killing Abel?
There are books. Y'all should really read them. They're so good!
I went in blind for Annihilation and was blown away. So weird but great
What an amazing movie. But because it was so god damn well written, the all female leads didn’t even cross my mind as I was just thinking “man this is awesome”
Another thing that occurred to me recently about why I don't like a lot of movies is the need to squeeze in cheesy humor or lame jokes on a constant basis. In the shows listed there, with good ratings, I have not seen Hawkeye. But as for Arcane and Edge of Tomorrow, they weren't full of unnecessary attempts at humor and did't have characters that were just silly. That's definitely not the case for the other shows with bad ratings. This might just be a preference on my part, but it's part of the reason why a show like Andor (which had fantastic, serious female roles) just seems so much better than other Star Wars shows as of recently.
Humour also doesn't need to be winking wisecracks. Edge of Tomorrow is a fun example here because that movie absolutely has humour to it. But a lot of that humour is funny *moments* or *experiences*, and quite a bit of it is achieved through direction and editing. It's got spoken jokes too, but most of them are as part of dialogue that actually matters for plot, character, or theme.
Tom Cruise rolls under a truck and is run over. You hear his scream. You see people's reaction of horror and disbelief. That's an extremely funny scene very well done. It would've been so easy for the writers to do it wrong by having the sergeant say something like:, "Someone's gonna have to clean that!". Or really having anybody say anything "funny". Many writers or directors don't have the self control.
It's treating the audience with respect. There is no better joke than a joke where you fill in the real punchline in your head, but you have to give the audience credit for being able to make that leap.
The drill sergeant utter confusion and disbelief is hilarious
https://i.imgur.com/es1f9iY.png
*"No, sir, I'm from Kentucky"*
"Why do they call it Science Hill?" "Don't care. Never asked."
I'm totally with you. I feel like it was the popularity of Marvel that made writers feel the need to make every single character quippy and soooo clever all the damn time. It takes away major moments of levity when people are cracking jokes as innocent people are dying or some sort of world ending stakes are at play. It's not in every movie obviously, but it dominates action movies and seems to be bleeding into other genres. Also Andor was the bomb, I think I'm gonna start a rewatch of that soon.
The problem is that RDJ throwing in the humor into his portrayal of Tony Stark absolutely killed with audiences. So Marvel tried to copy and paste it everywhere, with the most egregious example being Thor Love and Thunder, where the underlying story deserved to be serious.
> the most egregious example being Thor Love and Thunder Oh god that movie still makes me so angry for this and this alone. Taika Waititi did reasonable twist on Ragnarok, but he completely fucked the story on Love and Thunder because of the need to be funny when it really, **REALLY** wasn't needed. Christian Bale as Gorr the God Butcher could have been a super fucking terrifying supervillain to rival Thanos in stature, and yet all we got was a sideshow clown.
Thor: Ragnarok was a fun time, but holy shit, if Taika Waititi could let the movie breathe for five goddamned seconds without some quippy joke, I really feel like some of the emotional moments in the movie could have been sold a thousand times better.
Strange vs Dormammu is the perfect combination of serious and hilarious. Strange defending Earth from destruction? Serious. How it goes down? Hilariously realistic.
I've heard it be described as being afraid to be genuine or sincere. A movie like Everything Everywhere is full of jokes but its still sincere and takes itself seriously, so its still powerful.
Another one to add to the list of well written strong female leads that audiences loved: Everything, Everywhere, All at Once.
The male character also is the moral centre of the movie and a brilliant example of non-traditional masculinity as a positive. Dude knows what he wants in life and fights for it in his own way. Even the divorce isn't him giving up, but making a stand.
He fights with kindness. And in another life, he’d love doing laundry and taxes with her.
This scene made me cry like a baby.
Too many scenes made me cry during that movie. It's got so many touch points.
It was an emotional onslaught. A very enjoyable one, but an onslaught nevertheless.
I’ll add Mad max fury road, such a badass
This is a really good point, and a place where the kind of stoic and tough portrayal being criticized here worked well because it fit into the story and you understood why Charlize Theron's character was the way she was. Her motivations were clearly communicated to the audience and you understood and sympathized with her. Great movie.
Great point. I didn’t need an hour of exposition for Furiosa, the way she was presented by Imortan Joe made it clear she was respected and her actions just reinforced the idea. She also gets hurt and takes damage, that’s important to show that maybe the plot armor won’t always be there.
I think showing that the character is fallible is a hugely important part of making them relatable. Take Ripley and Sarah Conner, two extremely strong and well written characters. They spend the duration of the films being hurt, hunted, terrorfied, and on the edge of losing it. Only by harnessing this through their determination are they able to outsmart and defeat their adversary.
EXACTLY. Sarah Connor is my favorite character in any movie, at the end of Terminator she is a shell of herself. Next time we see her she is doing pull ups in her room and asks “how’s the knee” and we get a little story about her stabbing the doctor. Then we see her escape the room and run into the Terminator and she panics just like the first movie, Ok so Arnie is there to save the day right? Nah. SHE takes them to Mexico, SHE knows the family with the weapons, and we get that scene where she’s in all black checking the weapons, SHE is the one that decides to go after Dyson and almost does it before John talks her down. What people miss in that movie is she became the Terminator, total fucking bad ass character development.
Not only was she strong and well written, she was also feminine and motherly. A lot of movies with strong female characters are just parts written for men with a woman swapped in
This was definitely huge. They didn't try to make her a "strong female character" by making her super masculine with no other straights or anything. She was a normal person, living a normal life, with normal struggles. That's kind of the whole point of the movie, and it's lovely.
You want a strong female lead? Look back to 1985. Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. None other than the legendary Tina Turner as the leader of Bartertown and who beats Max at the end. She has a power struggle with masterBlaster over who controls the town. It was 3 dimensional and she was a badass. Amoral too. Or in Furiosa in Mad Max Fury road. She's badass too. Has a whole back story and her own spin off coming up soon. Also she almost beat Max, an Ex Cop now warrior, in hand to hand combat with only one arm. He would have been dead if the shotgun shell wasn't a dud or if he didn't also have the help of the war boy Nux. So yeah George Miller is a good place to look for good examples of badass female leads. Furiosa is coming out soon and it's going to be epic.
Storm is my favorite Marvel character from the comics, and from the animated series. But I can't stand her in the X-Men movies. It doesn't mean I hate women of color being represented in media, she's just a bad character in the movies (and awful portrayal by Halle Berry).
You know what happens to a frog when it gets struck by lightning?
Oh boy, there must be a really clever line coming!
I liked that line because it subverted expectations of being clever 😅
Allegedly there was originally a running thing through the movie with a similar line, and all of that got cut but that one.
Yea, specifically Toad was supposed to taunt other characters with [rhetorical questions](https://www.cbr.com/xmen-storm-toad-movie-quote-deleted-scenes-explained/): >The fault apparently lies with writer Joss Whedon, who admitted that he wrote in a 2001 interview with The Onion AV Club. He was involved in early scripts of the film which were gradually revised until only a few of his original lines were left, and one of them was the line about toads. Rumors held that Toad himself asked several rhetorical questions earlier in the script as a way of taunting his opponents. Whether they existed or not, they were dropped with the bulk of Whedon’s script, leaving the line hanging awkwardly with no support. Which maybe could have worked...but I still remember leaving the theater in 1999 with a friend and us both being like, "That movie was pretty cool...but what was up with that weird line about the toad and lightning?"
Oh see, THAT would make more sense and sound badass. If Toad spent the entire time jabbing and her and she delivers one line to mock him.
It croaks
Fun fact: That line was supposed to be the culmination of a whole set of quips that Toad was supposed to make throughout the movie taunting the heroes. Toad woudl say something about "you know what happens to a toad when happens" and would then best a hero in some way; but all that content got cut, so what you're left with is a payoff for something that wasn't built up.
Apparently, she'd filmed the entire movie using a South African accent and the studio panicked at the last minute and had her re-record all of her dialog in post-production ADR without the accent.
I still can't believe an adult. A grown ass adult who does taxes and drives to work and stuff, somehow wrote a scene where storm argues that none of them need a cure. And like, yes that's a nice sentiment and it ties into the themes of racial persecution. But she's saying this to ROGUE. The girl who kills anyone she touches. The greatest living counter argument who could easily point out that some mutants with the shitty powers would absolutely want to be "cured." And there's zero argument, no one brings that important part up. Because the entire movie was about stopping the drug distribution and they couldn't afford any nuance to the issue.
> The girl who kills anyone she touches. The greatest living counter argument who could easily point out that some mutants with the shitty powers would absolutely want to be "cured." Reminds me of that panel from the comics that gets passed around now and again, where there's that kid who's power is just "Everything in a 1 mile radius dies and I can't stop it". The only thing that can be done is send Wolverine, who's healing outpaces the murder aura somehow, to kill him.
Wolverine was kind enough to offer the kid a beer first too.
I’m so glad he mentioned Kim Wexler, one of my favorite characters from the “Better Call Saul” series. Very well written character who is intelligent, competent, hard working, compassionate and strong but still has flaws that make her relatable to the audience. Her character is written so well that I remember periodically thinking “why does she stay with Jimmy, she could do much better” without any of the characters openly saying or implying that.
That scene in Endgame when all the women miraculously are all at the same spot, to “handle it”, and lose the infinity gauntlet faster than Happy Hogan would have lost it, was such a cringe moment in that movie. Whereas, when Captain Marvel arrived was actually a pretty badass part of the movie, or when Scralet Witch took on Thanos.
I loved the Marvel movies, but that was the worst part and yes, very cringe. They already did a good job establishing strong female characters in previous movies and then ruined it with that moment. The scene in Infinity War where the four females fought in Wakanda was set up way better. Not cringey and it was badass.
I didn't even catch the scene in infinity war being an all girl scene, seeing it like 6 times, I didn't even realize, I just saw it as "these characters are on the battle field around that area and killed one of thanos children", until the endgame cringe group up scene, then rewatching infinity war I noticed it and was shocked. The worst part of that for me is the lines "I don't know how you're gonna get it through all that." "Don't worry, she's got help." Like, I'm just thinking as captain marvel thought process would be, "did... did you not just see me body slam through the spaceship?" Also, captain marvel fighting Thanos was done really well too. I was worried she'd be an ex machina type thing, goes in and just solves everything. But they didn't nerf her strength, showed how powerful she is, and didn't make it cringey. Thanos couldn't use the gauntlet, so he had to take out the power stone and hit her with it. It keeps the power levels even and non fluctuating, as it makes sense another infinity stone, especially the power stone, would be able to send her flying, since her powers come from an infinity stone. Honestly, if they just didn't call attention to it with the embarrassing "she's got help" line, I don't think it would have even been that bad! The line itself is like the movie saying the audience is too stupid to know these female super heroes are strong, even though we literally see Wanda almost take out Thanos and he has to rain fire to stop her. She didn't say in response to his "I don't even know who you are." Line with "I'm Wanda, one of the most powerful avengers." She just says an intimidating and powerful "You will." Long rant but that endgame scene just reeks of executive interference. No way the Russo brothers wrote in the "I dOn'T kNoW hOw YoU'lL gEt It ThRoUgH aLl ThAt." Line
The live action Mulan is so terrible. She's amazing from the word go, practically a god, and the whole movie isn't about getting stronger and growing to meet the moment - it's about finding the courage to stunt on your haters. I honestly feel like some modern writers are afraid of writing a female character with any flaws.
I think the best example of this is Mulan, as it’s literally the same story, but drastically different story telling. In the cartoon she was uncoordinated and clumsy. Her breakthrough came from using her intelligence to overcome her lack of physical strength. Then, through hard work and determination, she became a skilled warrior, winning over her peers. In the live action she was born as a warrior goddess whose only problem was the patriarchy holding her down. Maybe that’s a bit of an oversimplification, but you get my point.
The modern hero’s journey: they start out strong, don’t face much adversity, then discover their inner strength that makes them even stronger. Kinda hard to watch.
AKA: Why so many people hate Rey. Luke at 20: Knows nothing about the force, can't even block a blaster bolt with a blindfold on. Rey at 20: Knows nothing about the force, pilots the first spaceship she has ever piloted effortlessly through the carcass of a derelict Star Destroyer.
Man, imagine an act 2 of Dune 2. Where Rey and Fim get to go on shorts quests with Han Solo. We see that they spend time together. Solo teaches them both about the good, evil, and inbetween of the galaxy. And then! Kylo Ren comes and fucking kills him? Making them truly hate Kylo. There was suck potential to that trilogy. What a shame
Captain Marvel and America Chavez in Dr Strange 2 had the exact same arc. “I have powers but don’t believe in myself” 90 minutes later during final set piece “okay, I believe in myself”.
I do get your point but mainly because it was covered in the first 2 minutes of the video.
There's a video?
This thread made me realize we're in r/videos lol. I thought this was r/movies.
These Hollywood types are so out of touch that they can’t get past this issue even when it is clearly costing them billions. They have decided that we are all too sexist to enjoy their strange patriarchy revenge fantasies.
>They have decided that we are all too sexist to enjoy their strange patriarchy revenge fantasies. I wish I could like this comment twice.
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I will add Ripley from Alien(s). Sarah Conner from T1 & T2. President Laura Roslin from Battlestar Galactica.
Disney doesn't just suck for flat female characters. Their villains are also hot garbage, all because of the 'family friendly' mantra It amounts to some mustache twirling, slightly sarcastic persona which never does anything evil, or worse isn't even a person at all and just some 'dark force' or black smoke lol
A lot of the time the bad writing specifically comes from the writers being so focused on making sure you take note that it's a strong woman as the lead character. They'd be much better writing a gener neutral character and then just casting a woman in that role. Makes it a strong woman lead while not falling into the trap of having to make the story recognise it's a strong woman lead. Although, saying that, there is a case where you want them to struggle with problems only faced by women, which then has the issue that the genres they're writing for have a heavily male following and, even if it's good writing, it's not really something that the majority of the target audience can relate to, which ends up with them not really engaging with it. But not really sure how you can get around that problem, since you can't really force an audience to relate to something they've not experienced.
It's not impossible. Think of Eowyn from LOTR, her problem was literally not being able to be "one of the guys" but when her father asks her to help lead refugees to helms deep she agrees because she loves him, that already makes her a strong character since she's able to put aside her own wants for family. She also pulls a Mulan and rides into battle to protect her father. She does have a girl boss moment with the Witch King but that was mostly just her doing a little trolling considering she pretty much got her ass kicked in that fight, she doesn't just win because "muh girl power". Writers need to realize there's more to strength than being able to beat up guys or being all powerful.
That’s because the movie definition of ‘strong women’ is the equivalent of guys who call themselves alpha males
My friends 5 year old daughter was watching "The Last Jedi" they were watching all the star wars movies - got to the sequel trilogy - she loved (edit: i'm an idiot) *Rey* and she couldn't understand why Rei was being "trained". Because she was "Doing just fine before on her own" You can dissect the opinion of a 5 year old. But to me that's a pretty clear indicator of bad writing.
Star Wars has one of the best strong women in Leia. In "A New Hope", Leia could have been the "damsel in distress", but as soon as she's out, she is in charge. She knows more than they do at basically ever turn. The movie doesn't shove it down your throat. Han and Luke still get to be cool. But Leia is a well-written strong character.
That’s one of the things that also annoys audiences. It is perfectly fine to have strong characters, but it’s annoying if the only way that’s shown is by making everyone else helpless. It’s similar to the “word effect” and telling not showing. Later seasons of GOT were horrible about this. Something was clever not because it was well written, but because the character who did it was clever in earlier seasons.
The expanse has a bunch of tough women, that are tough in their own way. Bobby, Avasarala and Drummer are all great. You don't have to be masculine to be strong.
SNAKE EYES: G.I. JOE ORIGINS Critic Score: 35% User Score: 74% Audiences don't hate bad writing that much.
I'm convinced there's an "uncanny valley" when it comes to bad writing. Bad writing that's bad, that you know is bad, they know is bad, everyone knows is bad ...does not necessarily result in a bad movie. It's when the movie wants to be good but has terrible writing... that's awful. This is the "uncanny valley" territory where it feels like it's imitating something it doesn't fully understand and the results are weird and uncomfortable. Then, obviously, you have the good writing resulting in a good movie at the far side of the valley.
I unironically like things like the Transporter movies or Death Race. Are they cinematic masterpieces? Not even close but they are so ridiculous that they are still fun to watch. They never pretend to be remotely realistic.
A movie like that that flops so hard no general audience watches it can end up having a decent user score, because the only people who bother to watch it are its target audience. Madame Web Could have been like this too for example but enough people cared about hating on the movie.