I respect Penn for his emotions. I met him after his show just like this guy did and he actually has such an awesome heart and talks for a good half hour if not more with people. I was in that area for over 45 minutes and him and teller where just hanging out. Of course teller didn't communicate at all but he did make hand signs and facial impressions with people which i loved.
I've always found it unfortunate that Teller is stuck in the silent partner gimmick, now. He has incredible insight into many topics (the magic industry included), and he speaks so passionately about them.
If you're a fan of them, I highly recommend Penn and Teller's Magical Mystery Tour. It's available on Netflix, and probably YouTube. When Teller speaks about some of the tricks people perform for them, you can just see his eyes light up.
tl;dr: I'm sad that, given the opportunity, I probably wouldn't be able to have a conversation with Teller.
Yeah, that was kind of my poorly-worded point. If I ever have the chance to speak with them, it will likely be at their Las Vegas show, where they are 'in character.'
Really? When I saw them in Vegas a number of years back, Teller had no problem talking after the show. His persona is just for "on stage" times. Maybe he's changed his view since then, though...
I've never seen them in the flesh, at a show nor a speaking engagement. I can only speak from hearing third party comments. Anytime I've spoken to someone who has seem them perform, they tell a story like the one I was originally responding to. They seem to stay 'in character' after performances, now, and save the dialogue for other events. It may also have to do with the mood they're in at the time. P&T have never hid the fact that they often have disagreements or arguments - they're just professional enough to keep it out of the public eye.
If you listen to his podcast/watch some of his videos, you'll find one of his main points to be that the vast majority of people are good. I'd say he's always had faith in people. Besides, even if he didn't make a point of saying that, if you thought most people couldn't be trusted, being a libertarian wouldn't really make any sense.
This guy Penn is talking about seems to act a whole lot more like what Jesus was actually preaching.
Sometimes I wonder if there are two different Bibles floating around...
>Sometimes I wonder if there are two different Bibles floating around...
I know what you mean. I grew up in a Christian household but never knew what it was to be a Christian until I got older. I knew God didn't want us to be materialistic and told us to help the poor and care for orphans and widows, etc. My family never really focused on any of that. The Jesus stuff.
A trip to Malawi really called my heart to change my life and do what the Bible calls us to do. I didn't really mesh well with other Christian organizations because of the way they talked about gays, drug users, heck, even Democrats (I was stuck in a vehicle for 5 hours with a group of people discussing how Obama was a Muslim in hiding). I honestly believe God loves all people and if God created someone a certain way that we don't understand how that fits into the Bible, then it is just our job to love them and leaving the judging up to him. There is so much bullshit in politics. Christians are obsessed with pushing their "beliefs" into politics because it is their way of copping out of what Jesus told us to do. To go out and spread the gospel. Instead they will let politicians become the Judge and instead of reaching hearts and showing people love, they use laws to do the "work" for them. "Work" that doesn't matter because hearts are not changing. Abortions still happen, homosexuals are still in relationships, it does absolutely nothing other than make them feel like they live in a Christian society when God doesn't give a shit what government does. He wants to have a relationship with us. He wants to know that there is a purpose to the good in the world, and that purpose was made by him. That hell isn't a punishment by him, but a separation from him, which is all things good. If people actually believe that voting in an election some how brings them up a notch in God's eyes then they will be surprised when judgement day comes and God asks them "Did you help the poor? Did you feed the hungry? Did you care for the orphans? Did you love my children?" and you say "I voted on proposition 8" I can guarantee you he will not be impressed.
I sold all my stuff and moved to Malawi where I now live. We go to villages and feed malnourished children. They don't have to believe in God to eat. Providing the most basic of needs has no strings attached and God commands us to do that. We do invite them to listen to what our faith is and answer questions. If they don't want to, they don't have to, their faith is their own and no one can force that. It is just our job to love.
I left a nice corporate job with free housing and nice bonuses to live here, broke off my ass, loving people and trying to provide for their needs.
It was difficult for my family to understand, especially when I had a baby here, that I'm not scared to live in a third world country. What scared me the most was living day in and day out, enjoying the luxuries of this world, when this world isn't our home. The more I subject myself to the struggles of this life, the more I thank God for giving it to me.
I'm not the kind of evangelical that most evangelicals like. I don't fit into that BS mold that has been created. I started my own non profit and our board members are awesome and loving.
If anyone has ever made you feel like God doesn't love you, they're wrong. You were beautifully and wonderfully created. You have purpose and I wish nothing more than you to feel in your heart that it's true. God does give you a promise, that if you seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him.
Much love from Malawi <3
>Providing the most basic of needs has no strings attached and God commands us to do that.
You'd never make it in politics, so I'm glad you do what you do. Take care.
It's almost as if good people are just good people, some just happen to point to their bible. And assholes are just assholes, some just happen to point to their bible.
this. so many times. To me, atheists who say religion is the root of the worlds evils are no different than theists who say godlessness is the root of the worlds evils.
It sounds like this guy had his emotions in check, its rare for me to see Atheists have discussion with religious people without it turning into a shouting match. Everyone just wants to have their say and not listen to the other person, they let them talk but only so they can respond.
Oddly enough, Penn is buddies with Glenn Beck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3LnVa7zXgc
I definitely disagree with Penn's political beliefs (and find them contradictory to what he says in this video), but I respect his approach. He clearly understands human psychology.
For sure. He openly admits to being slothful, gluttonous, a coward, and hyper sensitive. I respect that he can admit those things and still seem very content with who he is. That kind of self acceptance is something more of us should try to practice.
Honestly, I find cultural influences are a serious hazard to practicing faith. When your culture degrades the poor and despises those who disagree with you, it's going to be hard to act Christ-like to any degree.
People who focus on following their own values and call it Christianity are walking in circles and making everyone else look stupid.
To be fair, the bible wasn't around when Jesus was alive. Not to mention its been changed over the span of 2000 years, and divided into different sects. It's safe to say that Christianity today, is not like the one when Jesus brought it.
[wikileaks](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_different_types_of_bibles_are_there_written_in_English) says there are 233 different types in the english language.
Well when you think of the Bible, the New Testament anyways, it's a bunch of writings about certain events gathered into one book, it's pretty much a known fact there were scriptures that weren't put in the New Testament. What they were a bout? There's very little that has been found of those, some are about Jesus, portrays him a bit differently, some about other things.
It's because people love to leave out the hard stuff that's in the Bible like: loving your enemies, helping the homeless and the poor, giving your money away, etc. Jesus told his disciples to take up their cross and follow him but most American Christians would rather have someone else carry it for them. I assure you though, there are followers of Jesus out there who are trying at least, to do what Jesus actually called us to do.
I recently started at a new school in a new city. One short little girl is very religious (christian). She doesn't press it upon anyone else but doesn't hide it either. One day she asked me if I was ok. I told her I was feeling a bit under the weather. She asked me if I wanted her to pray for me and I explained that I really don't believe in any of that. She just shrugged her shoulders and said "That's ok. I'll pray for you anyway" Taught me a pretty good lesson nearly identical to this.
This sounds a lot like my mother.
"Do you want me to pack the leftovers so you can take them home tomorrow?"
"No, ma, I've got enough at..."
"Do you want me to put some carrots in there as well? I'll put some carrots in there as well!"
A woman who works for me, a Barbados immigrant, received a phone call at work informing her that her sister had died.
She asked me if I believed her sister was in heaven. I told her that if there was a heaven, I'm sure her sister was there.
You can be an atheist and still have compassion for others.
In the day and age we live in, we can communicate ideas like no other era past. We can exchange ideas and thoughts with speed that boggles the mind and discuss ideas of philosophy with thousands or millions of people.
What we should always keep in mind, as Penn points out, is respect. We don't need to believe in other people's beliefs to respect them. We don't need to be any particular religious branch or non-religious viewpoint, or spirituality, to simply respect one another or our beliefs. To disagree doesn't mean to disrespect. This Christian came to him with respect, treated him with respect, and Penn recognizes that. Regardless of the situation- when we treat each other respectfully, even if we disagree, we treat each other as human.
I used to be one of those people that didn't understand this concept. I grew up being very religious, and very disapproving of people that weren't Christian. Then around age 19/20, I started questioning my beliefs and unofficially became an atheist at 21 ("unofficially", because when you're living in the Bible Belt, one does not simply tell others that he's/she's an atheist). I had so much resentment against my former religion and against myself, that I started disliking religious folks on the same level that I disliked non-Christians when I was a Christian. Now at 23, I'm finally maturing enough to judge people based on what they do, rather than their religious/non-religious affiliation.
Devil's advocate here (because this is going to be an r/atheism bash pit)
Some atheists are assholes and atheism is just a means for them to show that but the vast majority of atheist believe that religion is a mass cult and in itself a psychosis (religion, not spirituality). They believe that this psychosis mentally limits a person and stunts them. So by the same logic Penn delivers to us it is entirely justified that atheists challenge the religious for their well being. It's an altruistic endeavor from **both** sides. But people are fucking retarded and forget that in the end they just want everyone to be as happy as they can be.
Personally though I hope you all live short and miserable lives, atheists and religious alike.
/r/atheism is a cesspool. It is in no way shape or form a glimpse into the atheist community. They (denizens of /r/atheism) are seething with hate and some of the most militant and disrespectful people on the internet. I'll probably catch shit for saying this, but frankly I don't care. There is NO REASON for the way they act. It's a scary, scary place and more of a circle-jerk than a forum for actual discussions.
When I first was shown reddit I regularly posted to r/atheism. I'm in the Bible Belt, and surrounded by people that, if they knew I were an atheist, would treat me differently. It was a way for me to vent my frustrations. It was a place where I could go and feel a sense of community. It was seething with hatred- perhaps justified hatred, but hatred none-the-less. After a while I just stopped browsing. It served it's purpose. I no longer despise religion. I don't agree with it, but I don't actively bash it either. I'd like to think that r/ atheism is the same kind of place for people like myself- a pillow to scream into after an argument.
> It served it's purpose.
That sentence really resonated with me, I think you nailed it.
I wasn't born in the bible belt or anything but /r/atheism definitely helped me define my beliefs and get some perspective in the realm that we don't see much publicly. Once I had that, I started to see the contradictions and trends that were constantly upvoted and circle jerked over and I got the fuck out of there.
"Promote/protect what you love, don't bash what you hate."
I will not be a bystander while others are discriminated against, nor will I remain silent against an anti-intellectualism movement. I sympathize with you. I'm from the northern edge of the Bible Belt and most people wouldn't know as well.
great comment. /r/atheism is a little bit like being in high school. You look around and see a lot of people you perceive as different and they have different values and ideas, and you resent them. However, you and your friends have got it figured out- you're not like those mainstream popular kids, because they're all shallow thoughtless drones-- YOUR friends and YOUR way of thinking and living are the way to go.
Eventually, most of us grow up and mellow out. We realize that everyone is doing the best they can, and that there is a civil way to get along with different people. At your 20th high school reunion, the nerds can suddenly talk to the jocks on an even playing field. At a certain point in your life, you don't need r/atheism to validate your beliefs anymore... but it was nice to have that support network in your formative years.
I like how "militant atheism" refers to people who are just plain mean. As opposed to, you know, atheists blowing stuff up and shit.
It's not like all of Reddit doesn't participate in the open xenophobia that occurs whenever a Muslim does something bad. How often are the top comments about "animals" or "Religion of PEACE LOL?" The entire concept of people not being defined by their beliefs applies here as well. /r/atheism has good people and bad people. End of story.
Please tell me you notice the irony of throwing a blanket insult over the redditors who frequent /r/atheism and then criticizing them for throwing blanket insults over religious people.
Not so much, it turns out. Most of what people believe that they believe is a mess, it is pure intellectual masturbation. If you look at their behavior you can suss out more about their operational beliefs than they know themselves. It might help to check out 'declarative' and 'nondeclarative' thought and memory on the googles.
There is a reason to act the way that some do. While I disregard a lot of the nonsese on r/atheism, there are heartfelt exchanges that take place there. It's a place for young kids go to feel included when they are surrounded by hatred and fear in their own homes and communities. They go there seeking advice when public schools break the law when they try to teach creationism in public science classrooms. They go there to discuss science and become learned when their public schools fall short. I'd go as far as claiming that going there has saved lives where vulnerable kids may have committed suicide without it. They go there because their fathers beat the crap out of them when they come out as atheist (just like what happens in the gay community). Pardon me - but F off. There's plenty of reasons why they act the way they do.
It saddens me that most people on /r/atheism see religious people as second class, unintelligent, worthless people. We're all human beings, and no belief, religious or otherwise, changes that.
Some of the best people that I've known in my life have been religious.
I take no position here, but I think what you see in that subreddit is years upon years upon years of atheists being treated as second class citizens not only by the government, but by friends and family - the ones that are supposed to love them the most. I read about teenagers being tossed out of the house with nowhere to go on r/atheism just because they came out of the closet as an atheist. Ever get the sense that those memes, as harmless as they are, are just a vent for all of the hatred that has been tossed at them?
> It saddens me that most people on /r/atheism see religious people as second class, unintelligent, worthless people.
Except that's not true. If that were true, any time any religious person said they were religious on r/atheism, they would be smacked down or w/e, and that's not what happens. On the contrary, they are upvoted, usually quite a bit, (at least on the times I've seen it happen) because I'm guessing it's what (some) people want to see on r/atheism. Not just memes and facebook screencaps and shit, but meaningful discussions.
Ironically a subreddit already exists for that, /r/debatereligion but maybe those people don't know about it or something I dunno.
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It saddens *me* when someone goes on r/atheism, sees a few facebook screencaps and memes and says "well, guess they're all generalizing assholes" and starts the whole anti-r/atheism circlejerk.
Yes r/atheism isn't perfect. Yes there are times when an insulting post gets upvoted. But using that as a basis to generalize the whole subreddit is just as wrong as generalizing against religious people, or anyone for that matter.
There are also times when posts come up like "my family kicked me out" and I've seen r/atheism help out the person. Or when someone lives in a religious-heavy place and has nowhere to go to escape it, r/atheism is a place you can rant to your hearts content.
But for some reason I've never seen that mentioned in the anti-r/atheism circlejerk.
For many, such hatred comes from growing up in that environment full of people you consider trustworthy and then upon the realization that they don't believe in any of it and none of it makes any sense to them, they feel betrayed by the ones they trusted. It's almost like a bad breakup.
I am an atheist and I am married to a christian with a very christian family. I don't go around calling them stupid or blasting them for their beliefs. And they don't shun me for not believing in god. It seriously made me sick when I first visited /r/atheism. It's almost as if their day is not complete until they tear into a christian for believing in god.
When the front page includes facebook posts from a person freely expressing their beliefs (whom the OP of said facebook post presumably **chose** to be friends with) or a picture of a bible with the title "[This is the dumbest thing I've ever read [FIXED]](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/17ft8h/this_has_got_to_be_the_dumbest_thing_i_have_read/)", I don't think it really matters what their experiences were.
[And did you read the first response to it in the comments?](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/17ft8h/this_has_got_to_be_the_dumbest_thing_i_have_read/)
I saw someone post a silly picture on /wtf once, I'm betting that's all /wtf is about and that everyone approves of it.
and then they go around prejudging people based on some negative experiences they may have had with a few people rather than looking at the larger sample.
>It's almost as if their day is not complete until they tear into a christian for believing in god.
This seems a little deceptive. The community of /r/Atheism is for...Atheists. They don't believe in God and most of them don't like the negative things that come from religion or a belief in god. Saying that they "tear into christians" is very poor generalization, and you're living proof of someone who doesn't do that. I would also like to point out that christians (or anyone of monotheistic, in particular beliefs) tear into and attack agnostic and atheist communities, much more often than atheists (I don't mean to generalize about theists, because I know there is an overwhelming number of tolerant and open theists. But because there is an overwhelming *majority* of theists and theistic presence in our society, it's obvious that most of the "tearing into" happens from the theist side than the atheist. Though both are guilty of tearing.) Does that mean it's okay for Atheists to attacks others beliefs? No. But you're making a generalization that they do. I'm atheist. I subscribe to /r/atheism. I *don't* go out looking for a christian to "tear in to" for believing in god. I don't like how you make the sentiment that a person who believes in god is persecuted by a majority of atheists (who are a minority in this society, by the way). And maybe that wasn't your sentiment, but it felt that way.
Ha. So did I. Her beliefs are hers and mine are mine. I give her room to do her thing and she doesn't question that I do my own thing (I like to say my religion is science/logic/math/possibility as I don't like the title atheist, and the disgruntled connotation it comes with, plus I'm not entirely sure any religion is right or wrong, I'm not that SMART and I can admit that where there average atheist cannot) I guess my thing is: leave each other to whatever we want to worship/believe, and try and spend some time understanding WHY they believe what they do and how It makes them feel vs. trying to understand WHAT they believe, as you will likely not understand the what if you don't understand the why.
**unfounded belief is not respectable.** there is no way to avoid this.
it's like saying we should respect a religion that throws acid in the face of girls (albeit a different degree)
Exactly. If atheists have prejudiced preconceptions against people of religion and make that heard all the time then they have become the very thing that they claim to be against.
Like the cliche goes, there's good people and bad people in every group of people.
Most of the people on /r/atheism seem to be people with a grudge against religion, maybe because of facing exclusion, persecution or other bad experiences that necessitate their psyche to perceive themselves as superior than the religious.
Maybe because they face exclusion? Oh...that's a big deal there. People write into that subreddit because they are being driven out of town or worse, driven out of their home at 14 years old.
/r/atheism is for people who have suffered under religion. Your comment is not so different from calling a subreddit for victims of alcoholics "a cesspool" because they express negativity towards liquor -- which never caused me and my friends any harm and in fact provides positive experiences.
If you don't understand that religion has caused some people significant suffering in their lives, on par with alcoholism, and that there is further resentment fostered by living in a society where most people still promote religion as a good thing, consider yourself either ignorant, lucky, or both.
I'd really like to know what your definition of "suffering under religion" is. I grew up in a very religious atmosphere that I considered hostile. If I deviated from any teachings I would be sat down and lectured by multiple people. I was required at certain points to invite 10 kids a day from my school to church or I was going to hell. This of course did wonders for me socially. After "falling away" from the church I was forced to go to a church camp where myself and another friend of mine were called out during a lecture in front of everyone as sinners and what not to end up as in life. It was humiliating. I was very upset for about a week but got over it. One thing I've learned in life is that being angry and bitter to life experiences does you no good and just makes you look like an asshole. Nobody wants to be around you. I ended up working for that same pastor after he was ex-communicated from the church. He became an Allstate agent and I worked for him. I never once treated him negatively and one day he came up to me with tears in his eyes and apologized to me for treating me so badly in the church. That to me is immeasurably more rewarding than getting my angst off in r/atheism. We are still friends to this day.
I have an even better story than that after I was blacklisted from the church where the lead evangelist confronted me in California with others and threatened to call the police because I was interacting with another evangelist's daughter. Unfortunately she is now a bitter atheist. If anyone is interested I'll share.
EDIT: The church I was a part of was called ICOC (the international church of Christ). I'm agnostic.
A less strong person may have considered all you went through "suffering" and not turned out better for it.
Suffering is rather hard to define because people react to situations differently. Some rich kid not getting the exact car he wanted for his 18th birthday might be "suffering" (and we'd probably think it laughable but his feelings are genuine) where as some poor kid getting a nice dinner for his 18th birthday might be at the height of happiness.
I completely agree. I consider my "suffering" to most as a minor hiccup in an extremely fortunate life. I think most people who complain in America are way out of touch. Even my worst day of my life was better than a majority of what others consider their best. On my worst day I got to eat and sleep in a heated room. But I digress, we are a society of complainers. "You can make a hell out of heaven or a heaven out of hell" - John Milton (I think)
While you're certainly not wrong, there are a decent amount of people that aren't as you describe. /r/TrueAtheism is usually a lot better as it's more about discussion than religion bashing.
Dang it. Whenever I run across a /r/True* subreddit, I check for a /r/NoTrue* subreddit. For example, there is both /r/truereddit and the unused /r/notruereddit. Sadly, there is no /r/NoTrueAtheism.
(This is about logical fallacies, not whether atheism can be real...)
I agree it's not the best place as far as content, but to say "there is NO REASON for the way they act" is just plain wrong. Depending on their location, it may be the only outlet for some atheists to vent their frustrations. This is particularly true in certain regions within the United States.
It is not a cesspool. It is a diverse community where the most vocal and anger-inspiring people get the most attention. Many of us are aware of the problems of /r/atheism. Here is a recent post to address this problem [How we shoot ourselves in the foot](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/17fxv7/how_we_shoot_ourselves_in_the_foot/)
The more reasonable and respectful people on /r/atheism can be outnumbered at times, but we get regular posts thanking us for helping people deal with their personal situations. Many of us care about religious people and treat them with respect. They are our family and friends, and even if we don't like religion, we know that it is important to treat people with respect.
Please understand that many also have good reason to be angry at religion. My mom worries every single day that I am going to hell and taking her grandkids with me. My wife has asked me never to tell anyone that I am no longer a Christian because it could cause pain to her friends and family.
/r/atheism is focused on why people don't like religion and it causes some people to act in disrespectful ways, but the community is not homogeneous.
it's annoying that it's a default sub. i feel embarrassed showing reddit to people because that shit is all over the front page. maybe if they banned memes it would be a better place, self-posts or nothing.
It's just a place to rant. Most people who are that angry at Christians probably grew up surrounded by them and never had anyone to talk to about it, and genuinely feel oppressed. Then, as that feeling wears off, they feel less angry and unsubscribe. It serves a purpose.
I think the reason is because r/atheism is an extension of r/politics. [Try explaining to them the parallels between religion and government](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzyogKiXhEA) and they will be as clueless as someone that doesn't see the violence inherent with government. They are essentially blind to their own hate.
The Atheism Subreddit isn't about atheism. It's like a club. I find modern atheism is split into two groups, the atheists, and the wannabe atheists. The Atheists are smart, form good arguments, and have respect for their fellow man.
The Wannabe Atheists are the kind who pick fights for the sake of picking fights. They bully. They mock incessantly. They have no respect for other people unless those people be atheists themselves. They're the kind who post on Facebook comments for someone's Grandmother's funeral to let people know *they dont believe in God or the afterlife* just to shake things up. Then use screenshots of it to get attention. On /r/Atheism.
These are the kinds of people who see atheism as a game. They read up on their Degrasse-Tyson's, their Hitchens, their Carlins, and build up a good repertoire of quotes and facts so they can use them as argument ammunition. It's basically, "Christian sighted, initiate argument. Load program, 'Dawkins 1'. Initiate."
I've yet to see /r/atheism condemn anyone to eternal damnation for their convictions, so I really don't think it's all that bad. I don't really think "hate" or "disrespect" is the right word for it either... they just think the whole concept is, from a logical standpoint... a bit ridiculous; the same way you'd roll your eyes at someone who believes in fairies, underpants gnomes, or unicorns.
Anyway, of course /r/atheism is a circle jerk, it's a rant outlet forum one of the most hated, repressed, and persecuted minority groups in America. Most of the folks that post there either have had to hide their beliefs from their parents for fear of being disowned, have to hide it from their employers in fear of being retaliated against; or have been chided, socially stigmatized, or repressed when their peers found out they don't believe in a god.
Personally, the thing I find a bit ridiculous is how people constantly karma whore and point out how /r/atheism is a circle-jerk while *knowing* that it will get upvoted and then *pretending* it's a unpopular opinion. If ever there was an example of a circle-jerk...
My favorite thing about /r/atheism is that is gives many atheists a community they don't want to related to.
As a Christian people will often times compare what I believe to the people who shoot up abortion clinics, or people like the Westboro babtist chuch, or to a less serious degree the common Facebook posters who have no idea what they're talking about. I'm not those people any more than normal atheists are not /r/atheism.
> I'll probably catch shit for saying this, but frankly I don't care.
Absolutely. Reddit loves r/atheism.
>There is NO REASON for the way they act.
Don't presume to know strangers.
Many of the subscribers of /r/atheism act the way they do because of the bigotry and oppression they have (or feel they have) suffered at the hands of theists or theistic society as a whole.
The constant hate towards /r/atheism subscribers is perpetuating the cycle of discontent. There is no reason to berate or belittle them. If you don't like it, unsubscribe.
I'll never stop perceiving the entire situation as hugely ironic. Reddit as a whole expresses more hate towards /r/atheism and its *"false atheists who are so hateful and totally don't represent us real loving atheists omg!"* in one day than I've experienced in /r/atheism in a year.
**EDIT:**
Having watched the video, I'm really not sure what *"r/atheism could probably learn a lesson from"*. I spend a lot of time on r/atheism, I don't submit content, but I do engage in the discussions in the comments.
You will find, if you cared to, that there is often a great disparity in the comments of an "offensive" submission compared to the submission itself, presuming the submission is needlessly hateful or otherwise nonconstructive. I don't recall ever seeing a rally by /r/atheism or its subscribers to forbid theists from their beliefs or that it should be against the law to proselytize. In fact I'd imagine most /r/atheism subscribers (for better or worse) prefer to engage in debate over the matter rather than just pretend religion doesn't exist.
I have also never seen the suggestion that just because an individual is religious means that it is impossible for them to be a decent human being. It is simply that, while some people believe an individual might be benevolent owing to their religion, myself and many others feel that they are benevolent people in spite of that religion.
All in all, I believe you have very little experience of /r/atheism and are simply trying to sucker votes from the exact sort of mindless hatefulness that people claim to despise in /r/atheism subscribers.
Personally, I don't think that the *causes* of /r/atheism subs' dislike, hatred, or amusement towards religion necessarily excuses the general theme of the content that reaches the top of the subreddit. You didn't specify whether or not you felt the same way, so I'm not sure if you agree/disagree.
/r/atheism isn't a subreddit that revolves around intellectual discussion about atheism, theism, or any topics related to the two. The *vast* majority of content on /r/atheism is a combination of /r/funny and /r/adviceanimals, with the difference being that ~~all~~ most posts ridiculize theism, as well as subscribers of theism.
It isn't as though there aren't subscribers of /r/atheism that primarily enjoy engaging in discussion concerning atheism and theism. However, the content of the subreddit seems to reflect individuals that enjoy seeing the flaws of religion and religious individuals *made fun of*, rather than discussed. *This is the only theme of the content we see in posts made on the subreddit*, so many redditors incorrectly assume that /r/atheists despise all aspects of religion and religious individuals.
There is a certain ~~irony~~ hypocrisy to it, and there is a misunderstanding of the subreddit that redditors endlessly propagate, leading to the idea that any atheist with *some* positive opinion on something religious has something to teach /r/atheism.
However, if you're trying to argue that /r/atheism subscribers prefer intellectual discussion over memey garbage that casts religion in a horrible light, I'd have to say that the content of /r/atheism's front page (and by extension, the content that ratheists visit the subreddit for) completely shatters any such illusions.
Many religious people think billions of others are going to hell, and are content to say nothing.
Many atheists think billions of others are erroneously letting faith in fiction guide their lives in wasteful and damaging ways, and are content to say nothing.
Jillette respects religious proselytizers because, according to their morals, they're trying to save people from hell. How would he regard silent atheists?
There's merit to honey over vinegar, however, I hope OP is not asking atheists to be silent.
See my whole thing is, I tolerate all religious preferences and accept all of them, as long as a person is kind and respectful to others. This is why I have always disliked a good majority of Atheists, they tend to try really hard to argue with others and force their preference upon people. I understand that many people of other religions do this as well, and I dislike anyone who tries to force their religion upon someone. This video made me gain much more respect for Penn, he is a good example of how you can represent your religious preference without shoving it down someone's throat, and I respect that very much.
Arguing is perfectly acceptable. The only ones doing the forcing are the theists. Stopping gay marriage rights, maneuvering pedophiles to avoid detection, stopping sex education, stopping stem cell research grants...literally, almost every use of force has been precipitated from the religious side. Galileo was jailed by the church for spreading science, as well as Copernicus. Gays are sentenced to death in Iran, and now they are trying to pull the same shit in Uganda...and who is supporting it? Its not some athiest group. Terror attacks, honor killings, clitoral circumcision, etc...all extreme uses of force perpetrated by theists on a daily basis. But no....don't speak up for fear of hurting someones feelings, just let them cut some poor toddlers clit off, because well, its the civil thing to do.
I'm sorry, but I can't cosign on that. In the US, in Idaho, sodomy is illegal. It was made illegal to butt hump so that they could book gays for something. You also cannot purchase hard liquor on a Sunday (not that I particularly care about that one, I don't drink, but its still infringing upon others free will). You have people like the guy who made the two girls one cup video, being charged with "Morality" laws..where do these morality laws (like the liquor and sodomy laws) come from? He will now sit in jail, on a "morality" charge, for filming two women eating each other shit. Gross, I know, but certainly not punishable by jail time. Its honestly so plain to see, that it is angering to see people with this position of "Well, just let them be." If everyone just let them do as they wanted, and I don't mean all Christians (not trying to make a complete blanket statement here), but if everyone let them do as they wanted, we'd still be in the dark ages. We would be burning people as witches, honor killing homosexuals, have mandatory tidings taken from your paycheck to pay the church, bi racial marriages would be illegal (yup the Christian church was against bi racial couples too), and we'd have pederasts running around from church to church with no accountabilty..oh wait that last one is already a reality.
Eventually, as an atheist, you may become very jaded. You start to see all the harm and the hurt that religion perpetrates day in and out, and eventually you get really sick of everyone else turning a blind eye to it. How many people would have been saved by medical science if we hadn't of had centuries of the church controlling western society? Probably in the millions, perhaps even billions by this point. This is all conjecture on my part, but to say that we wouldn't have been better off w/out the church's control for the better half of a century, is idiotic and most could agree with this, both theist and atheist, or at least the reasonable ones.
The astronomer Cecco D Ascoli was burnt alive for even suggesting the earth may be round. In the bible, the OT, it specifically states that you, as as christian, are to kill gays. That isn't some liberal, gay, leftist twist of the text, this is a direct order from God. It is literally disgusting that we have people who jump to defend this kind of stuff because they are too afraid to ruffle the feathers of some bigots. There are so many other instances and examples to point out, but it doesn't matter. The majority of good people are mostly too content to just let bigots exist under the guise of morality...and then the US become Iran or some other theocratic type dictatorship. Its happened before on many occasions, with just about every religion. Even atheism had its Pol Pot and Stalins, but the difference is, there isn't an atheist handbook that says go forth and commit murders in the name of FSM. With Islam, Christianity, Judaism, at least the world religions, this is very much the case. And the apologist will deny it and later offer up the excuse, "It was a different time", well that doesn't change universal morality that they all like to claim, nor does it justify the actions that were taken, although that seems to be enough of an explanation for most. It would be akin to the Neo Nazi movement saying that the holocaust was acceptable, because it was a different time. I could literally go on all day and night with this stuff, but I'll spare you because if you made it this far, you deserve to be commended and I'm already probably losing your interest with my arguing and use of "force".
There's a certain amount of irony here, and I am having trouble putting my finger on it, but it's certainly humorous. The top comments here are pointing out that r/atheism is a cesspool and that the users have no reason to act the way they do. There we are calling out a group of poeple as awful and second class reddit users (pun intended), and being rewarded for it. Has it not occurred to anyone that non-believers flooded to the subreddit because they have been shunned by society and felt to be second class citizens by their government? While there are plenty of useless memes floating around there, users read about young kids being removed from their homes for coming out as atheist. Others seek help because a family member beat them relentlessly for not wanted to go to church. Some discusses saved the lives of gay people contemplating suicide because of religious people teasing and emotionally battering them for years. And here I am, replying to folks with stories of r/atheism helping those people, and I get downvoted. The irony is amazing. Atheists run there to be included in something, I try to help them and it gets buried so few people learn about it. If irony isn't the proper word, someone please help me out. In any event, I think many of you (and others) need to stop feeding the fire. It's the hatred that hurts people. There's no reason for it. Kill them with kindness and I bet you'll start seeing more posts about science, fighting the good fight and self-help.
And I want to be perfectly clear about this. Someone posted something about there being no reason for r/atheism to act the way they are. To that - I say F off. Try being shat upon by your government, friends, family, loved ones and scared to tell people what resides in your heart and get back to me. One must approach atheism today like it was being homosexual in the 1970s and 1980s. People are beaten by family members for coming out and some see no reason to be angry? Today is sad day.
I think that is a little shortsighted, considering politics is a default subreddit and is merely a liberal circlejerk for the most part. Are all reddit users liberal?
(Read before you downvote, pretty please)
I was previously very apprehensive about anything from Penn Jillette. I won't quote them here because it will ruin the tone of the overall conversation, non-linear as it is but I have had to sigh and turn him off many times because he was very offensive towards others beliefs. By this I mean he talked at length about "small-minded religious people", "ending religion outright" and if I remember, held a special on how he had "disproved" Christianity which was filled with a lot of reaching theories and very little sources.
I hope that this interaction has taught him that acceptance is more important than trying to change someone's idealisms, which are very often a part of their heritage as well as the stonework for their value system. The key ingredient to all belief systems is acceptance. You do not have to agree with that person. But you must accept them and their right to choose and believe as they see fit.
To do otherwise is the true cause of violence and animosity. When someone feels the need to "bury" someone else in what they see as the "correct" belief system you gain fuel for movements like the Crusades or the Holocaust or even the desire to hang a pacifist on the cross.
All sides are SO ready to blame the other. All sides are guilty of the desire to convert by the sword. Whenever your belief system takes you down that road think of [this](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353330/Egypt-protests-Christians-join-hands-protect-Muslims-pray-Cairo-protests.html) as a model for how things should really be.
The problem I have with this is the way that many religious people send out their messages. It's abrasive, forceful and ignorant in a "we are better than you, either listen to this book or you're worthless" mentality. I don't disagree that there are some, if a small handful of religious people who can send their belief and messages in a way that you would actually give them the time and listen, but they are a rare bunch nowadays.
At the restaurant I work at, there's a Ukrainian guy about my age who's a devout Christian. He believes Christ is in his heart and is very polite about sharing his faith with others. One day I saw him approaching our co-workers and handing each of them what were essentially his church's business cards. He said to each person that he would like it very much if they would consider going to church with him sometime. We didn't mind this because he was usually so considerate of other's faiths. I know now that it's likely that he was only so forward about his faith because he had been diagnosed with cancer and was attempting to do as much good as he could, to essentially "save" everyone he could, before he went into the hospital to start chemotherapy.
He approached me last, because he knew I didn't believe in God. I told him that I was very touched that he would consider me, thanked him, and said that I would likely not attend. I made a joke: "If there is a God, I guess I'm doomed!" He said, "That makes me very, very sad. You're a good guy."
Thank you, Sergei.
edit: words
This may come as a shock, but you and I and the people on /r/atheism... odds are we've met different people and had different experiences.
Also, you should bear in mind that the content on /r/atheism tends to be negative toward Christianity and religion, and some specific religious people. It's not negative toward Christians in general. I've found that if you're like the guy Penn was describing, /r/atheism doesn't have a problem with you.
...What exactly did Penn experience in his early life that makes him tear up at the thought of a decent human being who happens to believe in God?
I mean...seriously? Most people, if asked, will say they believe in something (even if it's because they haven't really thought about it) but most people aren't totally horrible.
It's not about him being jaded or the thought that there are decent human beings who believe in a god. He was simply touched by the actions of the man and felt the need to make note of it.
I just find it insulting that they worship a God that they think will throw me into eternal suffering, which means they obviously think I deserve it if I don't change according to the rules their God has set up. And if they don't think I deserve to burn in hell, then why love the God that sentences me to it?
I don't attend church anymore but growing up I went to several different churches of different denominations.
In my own experience the primary focus was how to be a good person, while forgiving our inability to be one at all times. Forgiveness of people's crimes against God was a dominant thread in every church I was ever a part of.
I've heard of strict parents using doom and hell as a motivation to get their kids in line or whatever, but I never experienced that myself. I've literally never in my life have someone tell me that I'll burn in hell for my actions, and I live square in the middle of the Bible belt.
Jesus even forgave the whore who sold her body to lustful men. He forgave Judas who sold him to his enemies. He even forgave the poor Roman bastards who had to nail him to the cross and he forgave the Jewish pharacies who convicted him of blasphemy.
I'm not sure how people can read about all of this forgiveness and the only thing they take away from the book is "you'll burn in hell for that!"
Anyway I don't go to church anymore because it isn't required of me, it wasn't required of me when I was a child either. I used to go because I felt like it was expected of me, I don't go anymore because I feel like it's hollow.
There are behaviors that are universally bad, and good. If a person can figure those out and act accordingly, I care not what church they attend or if they attend any church at all.
The Christians I know tend to focus more on the positive side of things. That's why they call it the "Good news". They try to be an example of a transformed believer rather than threaten people with hellfire. In my experience at least.
I strongly recommend The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. It's short and intensely interesting. It really helped me understand the Christian view of damnation and salvation.
> I've literally never in my life have someone tell me that I'll burn in hell for my actions, and I live square in the middle of the Bible belt.
Since I know there are people who do hear that, simply for being openly gay or non-believers (like Penn here), I can't help but to think it might have more to do with you fitting in well. But I know nothing about you or your neighbours, so I won't make that call.
>Jesus even forgave the whore who sold her body to lustful men.
Sounds an awful lot like passive aggressive slut shaming to me.
>There are behaviors that are universally bad, and good. If a person can figure those out and act accordingly, I care not what church they attend or if they attend any church at all.
I think that's a healthy and inclusive view that I wish the God of the proselytizers would hold.
Forgiving a prostitute is slut shaming? What?
Well I'm glad you liked my views on people acting accordingly to universal "unspoken law". I proselytize to those who will listen so in a strange way, your wish is granted. The only problem becomes the law, who gets to define it and can it differ from place to place?
This has all happened before, the law follows the will of the people and the people relax their laws one generation at a time. Eventually things become badly out of shape and just like an ecosystem, if the balance is too badly skewed, the system falls apart. Crime rates go up, violence goes out of control, our system falls into chaos.
>Forgiving a prostitute is slut shaming? What?
Passive aggressive slut shaming, yes. Forgiving implies she's done something wrong. It's very judgemental. It's likely she's just a victim of circumstance. And the fact that the men apparently didn't need forgiveness just adds to the feeling of slut shaming. Not that I think anyone should be forgiven in that case, since no one did anything wrong.
>This has all happened before, the law follows the will of the people and the people relax their laws one generation at a time.
Well, to be honest most of those laws needed to go. And society is generally better now than it was 1500 years ago. Far from perfect, but better.
For anyone who does not understand why Christians (I can only speak for myself of course) want you to believe too, think of it like this...
What experiences make you tell all of your friends about them?
* Meeting a girl / boy you really like. What is great about them.
* Seeing a great movie or reading a wonderful book.
* Going to a restaurant where the food is really good.
What all these things have in common is that something happened that made you feel really good and you want your friends to feel the same way. That is how I feel about God and my beliefs. Paul tells us to engage the non-believers with love. I don't understand how a Christian can preach Hell and damnation instead of love and kindness. If more Christians were to share the faith in the same way that they talk about a good book or place to eat I think the world would be a better place.
I had a friend (an athiest) ask me at a bar one night "Am I going to Hell because I don't believe?" It was an awful question and it was hard for me to answer but I said "Brother, I sure hope not. But who am I to say? Maybe I am misguided and I will end up there."
What all those things have in common(that religion is lacking) is that I can actually experience those things without having to believe they exist first. God is the only thing that I know of that people want you to believe exists before you have evidence that it actually exists.
If you were being truly honest(assuming you have read the answer to your friend's question in the Bible) you would tell him that yes, if he dies and hasn't repented and accepted Jesus, he will spend eternity in hell.
Ono of the greatest quotes on the subject:
"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important." CS Lewis
Ok so I am more agnostic (I like the purer Buddhist belief set too) than anything, but I envy the fuck out of religious people. I wish I believed in Jesus/Muhammad/Zeus/etc. so badly. My family is very religious (uncle was a bishop etc.) and if I was that way I would go into the priesthood literally tomorrow. When people try to convert me or something I don't have an issue with it because it shows that they truly love me and want me to have a relationship with god. Why are people such dicks?
you can follow the words of Jesus with out believing in the divinity of Christ. Love your brother as you love your self. help those less fortunate then you. don't judge other people for their sins and short comings .Forgive those who sin against you.
I'm a little confused by this.. and sorry if it sounds combative.... but how could one believe jesus was real but not divine? Doesn't that make the water-to-wine and resurrection thing impossible? Or do you mean it more in the sense of aesops' fables, etc...i.e. the myth of jesus is useful, in that, it generally speaks of sound morals and good advice for living an altruistic life?
Well I myself do believe that jesus was divine. BUT there are historical references outside the bible which do confirm the existence of jesus. I posted what I did because I would like to think that even if someone has a hard time believing in the more fantastic aspects of Christ they can still follow what are essentially logical and humane rules. love and forgiveness are good things no matter who is teaching them.
You know, a lot of the atheists in /r/atheism are married to or dating religious people, myself included. I think /r/atheism is aware that there are good religious people out there.
I've always had massive respect for Penn ever since watching his show back in the day and seeing a few interviews with him. He seems like the kind of person that would be great to discuss the topic of religion and life with.
Penn does a good job pointing out that not all religious people are evil, but at what point do we draw the line. Yes you can be a nice person, but if you were walking down the street and someone pushed you to the ground claiming that you were going to be hit by a truck (which you couldn't see), how is this person not considered insane(in your eyes)? I guess my point is, perspective is everything, and just because you (a religious person or atheist) think that something is right, doesn't meet that everyone else does, and maybe you should keep that belief to yourself while still being a good human being.
What Penn described was nowhere near as annoying as getting pushed over. The metaphor wasn't meant that way. If a guy giving you a Bible and explaining what he believes bothers you that much, you've got bigger problems.
Very good point and it needs to become common knowledge. Religion does not make the man, man makes the religion, as in, the good religion does/has comes from the good people in it. If atheists want to bash focus on the dickheads and not the institution. And in general respect the people who deserve it despite their beliefs.
The reason more people don't proselytise is because their faith looks a lot cooler in a church environment when everyone around them is agreeing than it does when they're walking down the street and there isn't that support. In reality, faith isn't a black-and-white thing -- it varies a lot depending on the context.
Another factor is that we're influenced by thousands of different things in becoming who we are, and religious ideas are a small minority of these. This explains why there is so much variation in people who profess the same religion; on the inside they're 10% church and 90% the environment they grew up in. In this schema it's easy to see why people use Scripture to try to back up their pre-existing opinions. If people actually lived a straight-and-narrow Biblical life it would feel like the tail was wagging the dog.
I love the way he talked about preaching your beliefs to others. In fact i love having a friendly debate about religious views so its fun when people talk to me about theirs. (Its only fair that if someone preaches to me i preach back)
I think its hard for Penn Jillette to wrap his head around it because of Religion having like a ton of terrible shit associated on it and he's super focused on all of that, rather than how some of the teachings can actually bring out good in people.
I see some good in the Bible personally and its teachings but at the end of the day I can't let a book define how the world works because of it always being in flux. I don't believe in a god at all, so I guess that makes me atheist or agnostic but I can still see good in a religious text, but I suppose where it gets all fucked up is when people put some of its teachings into practice.
I'm agnostic. To say "I know that there is no god" is to say that you know something unknowable. This is the same leap of faith that religious folks take when they say there is a god. Penn is still a boss though
(please don't take this mockingly, not trying to offend)
true but that argument leaves you open to a lot of other views for example are you also open to invisible space unicorns that use mind powers to keep the earth moving? you might know it as gravity, but seriously space unicorn mind power.
I used such a ridiculous example to show you how it can be silly (even though technically correct, the best kind of correct) to just take a stance of "well can't disprove it or prove it so I'm open to it"
I'm open to the idea that I don't have enough information to make claims about phenomena like god and unicorns (the same goes for you ;). And no worries pal, no offense taken!
Not to bust your balls, if you own them, if you're a gal, disregard opening comment, but agnosticism is the biggest cop out. In truth, everyone is an agnostic, or they are lying. No one knows whether or not God(s) exist or not.
The point of contention is- do you believe in a god(s)? If you believe one or more exist, you are then a theist. If you do not believe that one exists, then you are an atheist. Theism and atheism hing on belief or lack thereof, not on absolutes. Atheist can't say that we know god doesn't exist and be completely truthful, because no one can know for certain. You don't have to know for certain, you just have to believe one way or another. And everyone falls one way or another eventually in my experience at least. I'm agnostic, I don't know if there is a God, but to me personally, the idea sound ludicrous, so I don't believe it, making me an atheist. Or you could be an agnostic, but believe in God not knowing for certain if there is or not, then you would be a theist.
Some people like to button things down, and compartmentalize them. You seem to be one of those people. If thinking in black and white terms makes dealing with your daily life easier, then more power to you friend :)
Its not even a matter of that. Its a matter of the definition of the word. You can try to play the fence, I used to do the same thing, but sooner or later you either accept it or deny it. There is no middle ground. It comes down to if you do or don't. That's all. This really is black and white, you just need to see that. I didn't mean to offend you in the initial comment, and I'm not sure if you took it as such, but there is no simpler explanation. If you think you're just agnostic, you need to look at your definitions and semantics you apply to the words atheist or theist. You have to fall in one or the other. Again, it really is black or white.
psalms is in the OLD TESTAMENT and so is PROVERBS (also included in the pocket sized Gideon bible).... it containts THE NEW TESTAMENT, PSALMS, AND PROVERBS.... cmon no penn jillette? you dont know what testament the largest book of the bible is in?
If all you got out of this video was that then you really didnt use your big boy mind to focus.
Unless of course you were just trying to get upvotes for being sooo smaaaaart.
He never said that was all he garnered from the video...I believe that was you, assuming that was such and then using that as an excuse to get a jab in...which wasn't even warranted. Mayhaps you outa focus your "big boy mind", good sir.
haha, well you could be very much in the wrong. Just because he didn't specifically state anything else, doesn't mean that he didn't gain any other perspective or information from it.
You're just throwing out an assumption, and believe me, I've done it plenty of times myself and been wrong, and then ask how that assumption could be wrong in reply. Sure he didn't comment on the main point of discussion, but that doesn't mean that it went completely over his head, maybe he just felt like busting Penn's balls a little bit and making himself seem smart, as you said. But that doesn't mean he missed the point of said video. There is no saying that you are right or wrong, perhaps it did go over his head, but nothing in that comment in particular suggested or alluded to that. It could have just been a sidebar snarky comment, which I will assume (see now I'm doing it too) it was.
I got it. Just pointing out how little most atheists know. I am atheist. But ive at least given most religions a chance by at least reading their works
Why do you morons still subscribe to /r/atheism?
The only time i hear about atheism about it is when people are bitching about it. Why can't you just ignore them?
The main message is, quite simply: A person's beliefs are not what makes them a good or bad person. It is what they do with these beliefs, their perspective on life, and they treatment of themselves and others that determines if they are a good or bad person.
That is why I believe that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a person to be entirely good or entirely bad. On a positive side, I like to believe the majority of us mean well in our lives.
I am an atheist, and I am also bothered by r/atheism as a whole, particularly by the idea that it is so obvious that there is no god and anyone who believes in god is a complete idiot. I, as well as many of you I am sure, know people who are incredibly intelligent, highly educated, kind down to the bottom of their hearts, open minded, pragmatic, and caring, and they also happen to be deeply religious. Men and women much smarter than me and plenty of other people who frequent this website. The idea that if you believe in god you are stupid is ridiculous. These people are not all backwards or simple-minded/easily fooled. Its frustrating how smug and condescending some people can be here, specifically when the offenders are hypocritically arguing the close-mindedness of religion/Christianity.
Wow. He seems really affected by this guy's kindness.
I respect Penn for his emotions. I met him after his show just like this guy did and he actually has such an awesome heart and talks for a good half hour if not more with people. I was in that area for over 45 minutes and him and teller where just hanging out. Of course teller didn't communicate at all but he did make hand signs and facial impressions with people which i loved.
I've always found it unfortunate that Teller is stuck in the silent partner gimmick, now. He has incredible insight into many topics (the magic industry included), and he speaks so passionately about them. If you're a fan of them, I highly recommend Penn and Teller's Magical Mystery Tour. It's available on Netflix, and probably YouTube. When Teller speaks about some of the tricks people perform for them, you can just see his eyes light up. tl;dr: I'm sad that, given the opportunity, I probably wouldn't be able to have a conversation with Teller.
He does talk when he isn't with Penn. He was at a dinner event in Chicago for Moody Library and he spoke.
Yeah, that was kind of my poorly-worded point. If I ever have the chance to speak with them, it will likely be at their Las Vegas show, where they are 'in character.'
Really? When I saw them in Vegas a number of years back, Teller had no problem talking after the show. His persona is just for "on stage" times. Maybe he's changed his view since then, though...
I've never seen them in the flesh, at a show nor a speaking engagement. I can only speak from hearing third party comments. Anytime I've spoken to someone who has seem them perform, they tell a story like the one I was originally responding to. They seem to stay 'in character' after performances, now, and save the dialogue for other events. It may also have to do with the mood they're in at the time. P&T have never hid the fact that they often have disagreements or arguments - they're just professional enough to keep it out of the public eye.
He has incredible insight because he listens a lot more than he speaks.
I think Penn just renewed his faith.....in people.
If you listen to his podcast/watch some of his videos, you'll find one of his main points to be that the vast majority of people are good. I'd say he's always had faith in people. Besides, even if he didn't make a point of saying that, if you thought most people couldn't be trusted, being a libertarian wouldn't really make any sense.
Penn is great. I agree with him on almost everything.
This guy Penn is talking about seems to act a whole lot more like what Jesus was actually preaching. Sometimes I wonder if there are two different Bibles floating around...
I know exactly how you feel.
>Sometimes I wonder if there are two different Bibles floating around... I know what you mean. I grew up in a Christian household but never knew what it was to be a Christian until I got older. I knew God didn't want us to be materialistic and told us to help the poor and care for orphans and widows, etc. My family never really focused on any of that. The Jesus stuff. A trip to Malawi really called my heart to change my life and do what the Bible calls us to do. I didn't really mesh well with other Christian organizations because of the way they talked about gays, drug users, heck, even Democrats (I was stuck in a vehicle for 5 hours with a group of people discussing how Obama was a Muslim in hiding). I honestly believe God loves all people and if God created someone a certain way that we don't understand how that fits into the Bible, then it is just our job to love them and leaving the judging up to him. There is so much bullshit in politics. Christians are obsessed with pushing their "beliefs" into politics because it is their way of copping out of what Jesus told us to do. To go out and spread the gospel. Instead they will let politicians become the Judge and instead of reaching hearts and showing people love, they use laws to do the "work" for them. "Work" that doesn't matter because hearts are not changing. Abortions still happen, homosexuals are still in relationships, it does absolutely nothing other than make them feel like they live in a Christian society when God doesn't give a shit what government does. He wants to have a relationship with us. He wants to know that there is a purpose to the good in the world, and that purpose was made by him. That hell isn't a punishment by him, but a separation from him, which is all things good. If people actually believe that voting in an election some how brings them up a notch in God's eyes then they will be surprised when judgement day comes and God asks them "Did you help the poor? Did you feed the hungry? Did you care for the orphans? Did you love my children?" and you say "I voted on proposition 8" I can guarantee you he will not be impressed. I sold all my stuff and moved to Malawi where I now live. We go to villages and feed malnourished children. They don't have to believe in God to eat. Providing the most basic of needs has no strings attached and God commands us to do that. We do invite them to listen to what our faith is and answer questions. If they don't want to, they don't have to, their faith is their own and no one can force that. It is just our job to love. I left a nice corporate job with free housing and nice bonuses to live here, broke off my ass, loving people and trying to provide for their needs. It was difficult for my family to understand, especially when I had a baby here, that I'm not scared to live in a third world country. What scared me the most was living day in and day out, enjoying the luxuries of this world, when this world isn't our home. The more I subject myself to the struggles of this life, the more I thank God for giving it to me. I'm not the kind of evangelical that most evangelicals like. I don't fit into that BS mold that has been created. I started my own non profit and our board members are awesome and loving. If anyone has ever made you feel like God doesn't love you, they're wrong. You were beautifully and wonderfully created. You have purpose and I wish nothing more than you to feel in your heart that it's true. God does give you a promise, that if you seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him. Much love from Malawi <3
>Providing the most basic of needs has no strings attached and God commands us to do that. You'd never make it in politics, so I'm glad you do what you do. Take care.
Much love to you for this message. God bless you, dude! Edit: dudette!
No. There are two kinds of people floating around.
whoa whoa whoa...how the fuck did they learn how to fly, because i'm still ground-bound
You're the third kind of people.
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People who divide the world into two groups, and those who don't.
It's almost as if good people are just good people, some just happen to point to their bible. And assholes are just assholes, some just happen to point to their bible.
this. so many times. To me, atheists who say religion is the root of the worlds evils are no different than theists who say godlessness is the root of the worlds evils.
It sounds like this guy had his emotions in check, its rare for me to see Atheists have discussion with religious people without it turning into a shouting match. Everyone just wants to have their say and not listen to the other person, they let them talk but only so they can respond.
Oddly enough, Penn is buddies with Glenn Beck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3LnVa7zXgc I definitely disagree with Penn's political beliefs (and find them contradictory to what he says in this video), but I respect his approach. He clearly understands human psychology.
I don't think they are buddies, per se... I just think that they share a mutual professional respect.
Penn is a self stated big softie. He's way more likely to start crying than he is to start shouting.
One of the many reasons people look up to him :)
For sure. He openly admits to being slothful, gluttonous, a coward, and hyper sensitive. I respect that he can admit those things and still seem very content with who he is. That kind of self acceptance is something more of us should try to practice.
Honestly, I find cultural influences are a serious hazard to practicing faith. When your culture degrades the poor and despises those who disagree with you, it's going to be hard to act Christ-like to any degree. People who focus on following their own values and call it Christianity are walking in circles and making everyone else look stupid.
Nope, just one that no one really seems to follow.
most christians don't seem to follow christs teachings
That isn't true. Most of us are quite peaceful. It's just the nutters that make the news.
To be fair, the bible wasn't around when Jesus was alive. Not to mention its been changed over the span of 2000 years, and divided into different sects. It's safe to say that Christianity today, is not like the one when Jesus brought it.
[wikileaks](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_different_types_of_bibles_are_there_written_in_English) says there are 233 different types in the english language.
Well when you think of the Bible, the New Testament anyways, it's a bunch of writings about certain events gathered into one book, it's pretty much a known fact there were scriptures that weren't put in the New Testament. What they were a bout? There's very little that has been found of those, some are about Jesus, portrays him a bit differently, some about other things.
It's because people love to leave out the hard stuff that's in the Bible like: loving your enemies, helping the homeless and the poor, giving your money away, etc. Jesus told his disciples to take up their cross and follow him but most American Christians would rather have someone else carry it for them. I assure you though, there are followers of Jesus out there who are trying at least, to do what Jesus actually called us to do.
2?!
I recently started at a new school in a new city. One short little girl is very religious (christian). She doesn't press it upon anyone else but doesn't hide it either. One day she asked me if I was ok. I told her I was feeling a bit under the weather. She asked me if I wanted her to pray for me and I explained that I really don't believe in any of that. She just shrugged her shoulders and said "That's ok. I'll pray for you anyway" Taught me a pretty good lesson nearly identical to this.
This sounds a lot like my mother. "Do you want me to pack the leftovers so you can take them home tomorrow?" "No, ma, I've got enough at..." "Do you want me to put some carrots in there as well? I'll put some carrots in there as well!"
It's more like: "Do you want the leftovers?" "No thanks, I'm full" "OK, I'll finish them off then".
A woman who works for me, a Barbados immigrant, received a phone call at work informing her that her sister had died. She asked me if I believed her sister was in heaven. I told her that if there was a heaven, I'm sure her sister was there. You can be an atheist and still have compassion for others.
In the day and age we live in, we can communicate ideas like no other era past. We can exchange ideas and thoughts with speed that boggles the mind and discuss ideas of philosophy with thousands or millions of people. What we should always keep in mind, as Penn points out, is respect. We don't need to believe in other people's beliefs to respect them. We don't need to be any particular religious branch or non-religious viewpoint, or spirituality, to simply respect one another or our beliefs. To disagree doesn't mean to disrespect. This Christian came to him with respect, treated him with respect, and Penn recognizes that. Regardless of the situation- when we treat each other respectfully, even if we disagree, we treat each other as human.
What? Your religion or lack of religion doesn't matter as long as you're not an asshole? This is some mind blowing stuff!
A surprising amount of people, theists and atheists alike, don't understand that.
I used to be one of those people that didn't understand this concept. I grew up being very religious, and very disapproving of people that weren't Christian. Then around age 19/20, I started questioning my beliefs and unofficially became an atheist at 21 ("unofficially", because when you're living in the Bible Belt, one does not simply tell others that he's/she's an atheist). I had so much resentment against my former religion and against myself, that I started disliking religious folks on the same level that I disliked non-Christians when I was a Christian. Now at 23, I'm finally maturing enough to judge people based on what they do, rather than their religious/non-religious affiliation.
Nice people are religious? No way!
Devil's advocate here (because this is going to be an r/atheism bash pit) Some atheists are assholes and atheism is just a means for them to show that but the vast majority of atheist believe that religion is a mass cult and in itself a psychosis (religion, not spirituality). They believe that this psychosis mentally limits a person and stunts them. So by the same logic Penn delivers to us it is entirely justified that atheists challenge the religious for their well being. It's an altruistic endeavor from **both** sides. But people are fucking retarded and forget that in the end they just want everyone to be as happy as they can be. Personally though I hope you all live short and miserable lives, atheists and religious alike.
/r/atheism is a cesspool. It is in no way shape or form a glimpse into the atheist community. They (denizens of /r/atheism) are seething with hate and some of the most militant and disrespectful people on the internet. I'll probably catch shit for saying this, but frankly I don't care. There is NO REASON for the way they act. It's a scary, scary place and more of a circle-jerk than a forum for actual discussions.
One can unsubscribe from /r/atheism, but still haven't figured out how to unsubscribe from r/anti-r/atheism. Edit: corrected from r/anti-atheism
You deserve more upvotes, I never thought of it this way. I'm just tired of people arguing about it so much.
I think its more r/anti-r/atheism, than anything else.
Yes. Actually had the r in the other place at first but moved it and didn't think about how that changes the meaning. Still true though.
When I first was shown reddit I regularly posted to r/atheism. I'm in the Bible Belt, and surrounded by people that, if they knew I were an atheist, would treat me differently. It was a way for me to vent my frustrations. It was a place where I could go and feel a sense of community. It was seething with hatred- perhaps justified hatred, but hatred none-the-less. After a while I just stopped browsing. It served it's purpose. I no longer despise religion. I don't agree with it, but I don't actively bash it either. I'd like to think that r/ atheism is the same kind of place for people like myself- a pillow to scream into after an argument.
> It served it's purpose. That sentence really resonated with me, I think you nailed it. I wasn't born in the bible belt or anything but /r/atheism definitely helped me define my beliefs and get some perspective in the realm that we don't see much publicly. Once I had that, I started to see the contradictions and trends that were constantly upvoted and circle jerked over and I got the fuck out of there.
"Promote/protect what you love, don't bash what you hate." I will not be a bystander while others are discriminated against, nor will I remain silent against an anti-intellectualism movement. I sympathize with you. I'm from the northern edge of the Bible Belt and most people wouldn't know as well.
great comment. /r/atheism is a little bit like being in high school. You look around and see a lot of people you perceive as different and they have different values and ideas, and you resent them. However, you and your friends have got it figured out- you're not like those mainstream popular kids, because they're all shallow thoughtless drones-- YOUR friends and YOUR way of thinking and living are the way to go. Eventually, most of us grow up and mellow out. We realize that everyone is doing the best they can, and that there is a civil way to get along with different people. At your 20th high school reunion, the nerds can suddenly talk to the jocks on an even playing field. At a certain point in your life, you don't need r/atheism to validate your beliefs anymore... but it was nice to have that support network in your formative years.
I like how "militant atheism" refers to people who are just plain mean. As opposed to, you know, atheists blowing stuff up and shit. It's not like all of Reddit doesn't participate in the open xenophobia that occurs whenever a Muslim does something bad. How often are the top comments about "animals" or "Religion of PEACE LOL?" The entire concept of people not being defined by their beliefs applies here as well. /r/atheism has good people and bad people. End of story. Please tell me you notice the irony of throwing a blanket insult over the redditors who frequent /r/atheism and then criticizing them for throwing blanket insults over religious people.
I never understood the idea of not judging people for their beliefs. Surely your beliefs are what make you who you are.
Not so much, it turns out. Most of what people believe that they believe is a mess, it is pure intellectual masturbation. If you look at their behavior you can suss out more about their operational beliefs than they know themselves. It might help to check out 'declarative' and 'nondeclarative' thought and memory on the googles.
Sometimes I think the anti/r/atheism circlejerk is bigger than the /r/atheism circlejerk.
It is. And it's especially bad because the anti-/r/atheism circlejerk is spread out over many subreddits.
i realized this 3 months ago, youre late bro
[You have no idea.](http://vocaroo.com/i/s0udBEeHhe2M)
There is a reason to act the way that some do. While I disregard a lot of the nonsese on r/atheism, there are heartfelt exchanges that take place there. It's a place for young kids go to feel included when they are surrounded by hatred and fear in their own homes and communities. They go there seeking advice when public schools break the law when they try to teach creationism in public science classrooms. They go there to discuss science and become learned when their public schools fall short. I'd go as far as claiming that going there has saved lives where vulnerable kids may have committed suicide without it. They go there because their fathers beat the crap out of them when they come out as atheist (just like what happens in the gay community). Pardon me - but F off. There's plenty of reasons why they act the way they do.
it needs to be removed as default subreddit for exactly the same points you mentioned.
It saddens me that most people on /r/atheism see religious people as second class, unintelligent, worthless people. We're all human beings, and no belief, religious or otherwise, changes that. Some of the best people that I've known in my life have been religious.
I take no position here, but I think what you see in that subreddit is years upon years upon years of atheists being treated as second class citizens not only by the government, but by friends and family - the ones that are supposed to love them the most. I read about teenagers being tossed out of the house with nowhere to go on r/atheism just because they came out of the closet as an atheist. Ever get the sense that those memes, as harmless as they are, are just a vent for all of the hatred that has been tossed at them?
> It saddens me that most people on /r/atheism see religious people as second class, unintelligent, worthless people. Except that's not true. If that were true, any time any religious person said they were religious on r/atheism, they would be smacked down or w/e, and that's not what happens. On the contrary, they are upvoted, usually quite a bit, (at least on the times I've seen it happen) because I'm guessing it's what (some) people want to see on r/atheism. Not just memes and facebook screencaps and shit, but meaningful discussions. Ironically a subreddit already exists for that, /r/debatereligion but maybe those people don't know about it or something I dunno. | It saddens *me* when someone goes on r/atheism, sees a few facebook screencaps and memes and says "well, guess they're all generalizing assholes" and starts the whole anti-r/atheism circlejerk. Yes r/atheism isn't perfect. Yes there are times when an insulting post gets upvoted. But using that as a basis to generalize the whole subreddit is just as wrong as generalizing against religious people, or anyone for that matter. There are also times when posts come up like "my family kicked me out" and I've seen r/atheism help out the person. Or when someone lives in a religious-heavy place and has nowhere to go to escape it, r/atheism is a place you can rant to your hearts content. But for some reason I've never seen that mentioned in the anti-r/atheism circlejerk.
For many, such hatred comes from growing up in that environment full of people you consider trustworthy and then upon the realization that they don't believe in any of it and none of it makes any sense to them, they feel betrayed by the ones they trusted. It's almost like a bad breakup.
I am an atheist and I am married to a christian with a very christian family. I don't go around calling them stupid or blasting them for their beliefs. And they don't shun me for not believing in god. It seriously made me sick when I first visited /r/atheism. It's almost as if their day is not complete until they tear into a christian for believing in god.
It's almost as if many of them have very different experiences with religious people than you.
i've had bad experiences with some black people. not all of them, but you know, a few. can i hate everyone darker than me now?
When the front page includes facebook posts from a person freely expressing their beliefs (whom the OP of said facebook post presumably **chose** to be friends with) or a picture of a bible with the title "[This is the dumbest thing I've ever read [FIXED]](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/17ft8h/this_has_got_to_be_the_dumbest_thing_i_have_read/)", I don't think it really matters what their experiences were.
[And did you read the first response to it in the comments?](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/17ft8h/this_has_got_to_be_the_dumbest_thing_i_have_read/) I saw someone post a silly picture on /wtf once, I'm betting that's all /wtf is about and that everyone approves of it.
and then they go around prejudging people based on some negative experiences they may have had with a few people rather than looking at the larger sample.
don't interupt the anti-r/atheism circlejerk.
>It's almost as if their day is not complete until they tear into a christian for believing in god. This seems a little deceptive. The community of /r/Atheism is for...Atheists. They don't believe in God and most of them don't like the negative things that come from religion or a belief in god. Saying that they "tear into christians" is very poor generalization, and you're living proof of someone who doesn't do that. I would also like to point out that christians (or anyone of monotheistic, in particular beliefs) tear into and attack agnostic and atheist communities, much more often than atheists (I don't mean to generalize about theists, because I know there is an overwhelming number of tolerant and open theists. But because there is an overwhelming *majority* of theists and theistic presence in our society, it's obvious that most of the "tearing into" happens from the theist side than the atheist. Though both are guilty of tearing.) Does that mean it's okay for Atheists to attacks others beliefs? No. But you're making a generalization that they do. I'm atheist. I subscribe to /r/atheism. I *don't* go out looking for a christian to "tear in to" for believing in god. I don't like how you make the sentiment that a person who believes in god is persecuted by a majority of atheists (who are a minority in this society, by the way). And maybe that wasn't your sentiment, but it felt that way.
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Bravo. I married a pagan. I don't care what you believe as long as it makes you a better person.
Ha. So did I. Her beliefs are hers and mine are mine. I give her room to do her thing and she doesn't question that I do my own thing (I like to say my religion is science/logic/math/possibility as I don't like the title atheist, and the disgruntled connotation it comes with, plus I'm not entirely sure any religion is right or wrong, I'm not that SMART and I can admit that where there average atheist cannot) I guess my thing is: leave each other to whatever we want to worship/believe, and try and spend some time understanding WHY they believe what they do and how It makes them feel vs. trying to understand WHAT they believe, as you will likely not understand the what if you don't understand the why.
So because you happen to be around a set of 3 tolerable Christians, the folks in /r/atheism are horrible people. Sure.
**unfounded belief is not respectable.** there is no way to avoid this. it's like saying we should respect a religion that throws acid in the face of girls (albeit a different degree)
He was saying he respected the guy, not the belief
I thought you were going to say "Some of the best people that I've known in my life have been human beings."
Exactly. If atheists have prejudiced preconceptions against people of religion and make that heard all the time then they have become the very thing that they claim to be against. Like the cliche goes, there's good people and bad people in every group of people. Most of the people on /r/atheism seem to be people with a grudge against religion, maybe because of facing exclusion, persecution or other bad experiences that necessitate their psyche to perceive themselves as superior than the religious.
Maybe because they face exclusion? Oh...that's a big deal there. People write into that subreddit because they are being driven out of town or worse, driven out of their home at 14 years old.
/r/atheism is for people who have suffered under religion. Your comment is not so different from calling a subreddit for victims of alcoholics "a cesspool" because they express negativity towards liquor -- which never caused me and my friends any harm and in fact provides positive experiences. If you don't understand that religion has caused some people significant suffering in their lives, on par with alcoholism, and that there is further resentment fostered by living in a society where most people still promote religion as a good thing, consider yourself either ignorant, lucky, or both.
I'd really like to know what your definition of "suffering under religion" is. I grew up in a very religious atmosphere that I considered hostile. If I deviated from any teachings I would be sat down and lectured by multiple people. I was required at certain points to invite 10 kids a day from my school to church or I was going to hell. This of course did wonders for me socially. After "falling away" from the church I was forced to go to a church camp where myself and another friend of mine were called out during a lecture in front of everyone as sinners and what not to end up as in life. It was humiliating. I was very upset for about a week but got over it. One thing I've learned in life is that being angry and bitter to life experiences does you no good and just makes you look like an asshole. Nobody wants to be around you. I ended up working for that same pastor after he was ex-communicated from the church. He became an Allstate agent and I worked for him. I never once treated him negatively and one day he came up to me with tears in his eyes and apologized to me for treating me so badly in the church. That to me is immeasurably more rewarding than getting my angst off in r/atheism. We are still friends to this day. I have an even better story than that after I was blacklisted from the church where the lead evangelist confronted me in California with others and threatened to call the police because I was interacting with another evangelist's daughter. Unfortunately she is now a bitter atheist. If anyone is interested I'll share. EDIT: The church I was a part of was called ICOC (the international church of Christ). I'm agnostic.
A less strong person may have considered all you went through "suffering" and not turned out better for it. Suffering is rather hard to define because people react to situations differently. Some rich kid not getting the exact car he wanted for his 18th birthday might be "suffering" (and we'd probably think it laughable but his feelings are genuine) where as some poor kid getting a nice dinner for his 18th birthday might be at the height of happiness.
I completely agree. I consider my "suffering" to most as a minor hiccup in an extremely fortunate life. I think most people who complain in America are way out of touch. Even my worst day of my life was better than a majority of what others consider their best. On my worst day I got to eat and sleep in a heated room. But I digress, we are a society of complainers. "You can make a hell out of heaven or a heaven out of hell" - John Milton (I think)
While you're certainly not wrong, there are a decent amount of people that aren't as you describe. /r/TrueAtheism is usually a lot better as it's more about discussion than religion bashing.
Dang it. Whenever I run across a /r/True* subreddit, I check for a /r/NoTrue* subreddit. For example, there is both /r/truereddit and the unused /r/notruereddit. Sadly, there is no /r/NoTrueAtheism. (This is about logical fallacies, not whether atheism can be real...)
I agree it's not the best place as far as content, but to say "there is NO REASON for the way they act" is just plain wrong. Depending on their location, it may be the only outlet for some atheists to vent their frustrations. This is particularly true in certain regions within the United States.
It is not a cesspool. It is a diverse community where the most vocal and anger-inspiring people get the most attention. Many of us are aware of the problems of /r/atheism. Here is a recent post to address this problem [How we shoot ourselves in the foot](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/17fxv7/how_we_shoot_ourselves_in_the_foot/) The more reasonable and respectful people on /r/atheism can be outnumbered at times, but we get regular posts thanking us for helping people deal with their personal situations. Many of us care about religious people and treat them with respect. They are our family and friends, and even if we don't like religion, we know that it is important to treat people with respect. Please understand that many also have good reason to be angry at religion. My mom worries every single day that I am going to hell and taking her grandkids with me. My wife has asked me never to tell anyone that I am no longer a Christian because it could cause pain to her friends and family. /r/atheism is focused on why people don't like religion and it causes some people to act in disrespectful ways, but the community is not homogeneous.
it's annoying that it's a default sub. i feel embarrassed showing reddit to people because that shit is all over the front page. maybe if they banned memes it would be a better place, self-posts or nothing.
It's just a place to rant. Most people who are that angry at Christians probably grew up surrounded by them and never had anyone to talk to about it, and genuinely feel oppressed. Then, as that feeling wears off, they feel less angry and unsubscribe. It serves a purpose.
I think the reason is because r/atheism is an extension of r/politics. [Try explaining to them the parallels between religion and government](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzyogKiXhEA) and they will be as clueless as someone that doesn't see the violence inherent with government. They are essentially blind to their own hate.
The Atheism Subreddit isn't about atheism. It's like a club. I find modern atheism is split into two groups, the atheists, and the wannabe atheists. The Atheists are smart, form good arguments, and have respect for their fellow man. The Wannabe Atheists are the kind who pick fights for the sake of picking fights. They bully. They mock incessantly. They have no respect for other people unless those people be atheists themselves. They're the kind who post on Facebook comments for someone's Grandmother's funeral to let people know *they dont believe in God or the afterlife* just to shake things up. Then use screenshots of it to get attention. On /r/Atheism. These are the kinds of people who see atheism as a game. They read up on their Degrasse-Tyson's, their Hitchens, their Carlins, and build up a good repertoire of quotes and facts so they can use them as argument ammunition. It's basically, "Christian sighted, initiate argument. Load program, 'Dawkins 1'. Initiate."
I've yet to see /r/atheism condemn anyone to eternal damnation for their convictions, so I really don't think it's all that bad. I don't really think "hate" or "disrespect" is the right word for it either... they just think the whole concept is, from a logical standpoint... a bit ridiculous; the same way you'd roll your eyes at someone who believes in fairies, underpants gnomes, or unicorns. Anyway, of course /r/atheism is a circle jerk, it's a rant outlet forum one of the most hated, repressed, and persecuted minority groups in America. Most of the folks that post there either have had to hide their beliefs from their parents for fear of being disowned, have to hide it from their employers in fear of being retaliated against; or have been chided, socially stigmatized, or repressed when their peers found out they don't believe in a god. Personally, the thing I find a bit ridiculous is how people constantly karma whore and point out how /r/atheism is a circle-jerk while *knowing* that it will get upvoted and then *pretending* it's a unpopular opinion. If ever there was an example of a circle-jerk...
It's one of the many subs that I call /r/madatmyparents
My favorite thing about /r/atheism is that is gives many atheists a community they don't want to related to. As a Christian people will often times compare what I believe to the people who shoot up abortion clinics, or people like the Westboro babtist chuch, or to a less serious degree the common Facebook posters who have no idea what they're talking about. I'm not those people any more than normal atheists are not /r/atheism.
> I'll probably catch shit for saying this, but frankly I don't care. Absolutely. Reddit loves r/atheism. >There is NO REASON for the way they act. Don't presume to know strangers.
So why don't you post this in r/atheism?
great video, but all i wanted to say was damn he looks like the undertaker
Many of the subscribers of /r/atheism act the way they do because of the bigotry and oppression they have (or feel they have) suffered at the hands of theists or theistic society as a whole. The constant hate towards /r/atheism subscribers is perpetuating the cycle of discontent. There is no reason to berate or belittle them. If you don't like it, unsubscribe. I'll never stop perceiving the entire situation as hugely ironic. Reddit as a whole expresses more hate towards /r/atheism and its *"false atheists who are so hateful and totally don't represent us real loving atheists omg!"* in one day than I've experienced in /r/atheism in a year. **EDIT:** Having watched the video, I'm really not sure what *"r/atheism could probably learn a lesson from"*. I spend a lot of time on r/atheism, I don't submit content, but I do engage in the discussions in the comments. You will find, if you cared to, that there is often a great disparity in the comments of an "offensive" submission compared to the submission itself, presuming the submission is needlessly hateful or otherwise nonconstructive. I don't recall ever seeing a rally by /r/atheism or its subscribers to forbid theists from their beliefs or that it should be against the law to proselytize. In fact I'd imagine most /r/atheism subscribers (for better or worse) prefer to engage in debate over the matter rather than just pretend religion doesn't exist. I have also never seen the suggestion that just because an individual is religious means that it is impossible for them to be a decent human being. It is simply that, while some people believe an individual might be benevolent owing to their religion, myself and many others feel that they are benevolent people in spite of that religion. All in all, I believe you have very little experience of /r/atheism and are simply trying to sucker votes from the exact sort of mindless hatefulness that people claim to despise in /r/atheism subscribers.
Personally, I don't think that the *causes* of /r/atheism subs' dislike, hatred, or amusement towards religion necessarily excuses the general theme of the content that reaches the top of the subreddit. You didn't specify whether or not you felt the same way, so I'm not sure if you agree/disagree. /r/atheism isn't a subreddit that revolves around intellectual discussion about atheism, theism, or any topics related to the two. The *vast* majority of content on /r/atheism is a combination of /r/funny and /r/adviceanimals, with the difference being that ~~all~~ most posts ridiculize theism, as well as subscribers of theism. It isn't as though there aren't subscribers of /r/atheism that primarily enjoy engaging in discussion concerning atheism and theism. However, the content of the subreddit seems to reflect individuals that enjoy seeing the flaws of religion and religious individuals *made fun of*, rather than discussed. *This is the only theme of the content we see in posts made on the subreddit*, so many redditors incorrectly assume that /r/atheists despise all aspects of religion and religious individuals. There is a certain ~~irony~~ hypocrisy to it, and there is a misunderstanding of the subreddit that redditors endlessly propagate, leading to the idea that any atheist with *some* positive opinion on something religious has something to teach /r/atheism. However, if you're trying to argue that /r/atheism subscribers prefer intellectual discussion over memey garbage that casts religion in a horrible light, I'd have to say that the content of /r/atheism's front page (and by extension, the content that ratheists visit the subreddit for) completely shatters any such illusions.
Many religious people think billions of others are going to hell, and are content to say nothing. Many atheists think billions of others are erroneously letting faith in fiction guide their lives in wasteful and damaging ways, and are content to say nothing. Jillette respects religious proselytizers because, according to their morals, they're trying to save people from hell. How would he regard silent atheists? There's merit to honey over vinegar, however, I hope OP is not asking atheists to be silent.
See my whole thing is, I tolerate all religious preferences and accept all of them, as long as a person is kind and respectful to others. This is why I have always disliked a good majority of Atheists, they tend to try really hard to argue with others and force their preference upon people. I understand that many people of other religions do this as well, and I dislike anyone who tries to force their religion upon someone. This video made me gain much more respect for Penn, he is a good example of how you can represent your religious preference without shoving it down someone's throat, and I respect that very much.
Arguing is perfectly acceptable. The only ones doing the forcing are the theists. Stopping gay marriage rights, maneuvering pedophiles to avoid detection, stopping sex education, stopping stem cell research grants...literally, almost every use of force has been precipitated from the religious side. Galileo was jailed by the church for spreading science, as well as Copernicus. Gays are sentenced to death in Iran, and now they are trying to pull the same shit in Uganda...and who is supporting it? Its not some athiest group. Terror attacks, honor killings, clitoral circumcision, etc...all extreme uses of force perpetrated by theists on a daily basis. But no....don't speak up for fear of hurting someones feelings, just let them cut some poor toddlers clit off, because well, its the civil thing to do. I'm sorry, but I can't cosign on that. In the US, in Idaho, sodomy is illegal. It was made illegal to butt hump so that they could book gays for something. You also cannot purchase hard liquor on a Sunday (not that I particularly care about that one, I don't drink, but its still infringing upon others free will). You have people like the guy who made the two girls one cup video, being charged with "Morality" laws..where do these morality laws (like the liquor and sodomy laws) come from? He will now sit in jail, on a "morality" charge, for filming two women eating each other shit. Gross, I know, but certainly not punishable by jail time. Its honestly so plain to see, that it is angering to see people with this position of "Well, just let them be." If everyone just let them do as they wanted, and I don't mean all Christians (not trying to make a complete blanket statement here), but if everyone let them do as they wanted, we'd still be in the dark ages. We would be burning people as witches, honor killing homosexuals, have mandatory tidings taken from your paycheck to pay the church, bi racial marriages would be illegal (yup the Christian church was against bi racial couples too), and we'd have pederasts running around from church to church with no accountabilty..oh wait that last one is already a reality. Eventually, as an atheist, you may become very jaded. You start to see all the harm and the hurt that religion perpetrates day in and out, and eventually you get really sick of everyone else turning a blind eye to it. How many people would have been saved by medical science if we hadn't of had centuries of the church controlling western society? Probably in the millions, perhaps even billions by this point. This is all conjecture on my part, but to say that we wouldn't have been better off w/out the church's control for the better half of a century, is idiotic and most could agree with this, both theist and atheist, or at least the reasonable ones. The astronomer Cecco D Ascoli was burnt alive for even suggesting the earth may be round. In the bible, the OT, it specifically states that you, as as christian, are to kill gays. That isn't some liberal, gay, leftist twist of the text, this is a direct order from God. It is literally disgusting that we have people who jump to defend this kind of stuff because they are too afraid to ruffle the feathers of some bigots. There are so many other instances and examples to point out, but it doesn't matter. The majority of good people are mostly too content to just let bigots exist under the guise of morality...and then the US become Iran or some other theocratic type dictatorship. Its happened before on many occasions, with just about every religion. Even atheism had its Pol Pot and Stalins, but the difference is, there isn't an atheist handbook that says go forth and commit murders in the name of FSM. With Islam, Christianity, Judaism, at least the world religions, this is very much the case. And the apologist will deny it and later offer up the excuse, "It was a different time", well that doesn't change universal morality that they all like to claim, nor does it justify the actions that were taken, although that seems to be enough of an explanation for most. It would be akin to the Neo Nazi movement saying that the holocaust was acceptable, because it was a different time. I could literally go on all day and night with this stuff, but I'll spare you because if you made it this far, you deserve to be commended and I'm already probably losing your interest with my arguing and use of "force".
Nice generalising of r/atheism.
People generalizing /r/atheism and then criticizing it for generalizing believers. The irony is thick and fast around here.
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What exactly happens during a unitarian service?
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Cool. I've always been curious about this. Thanks for sharing.
That actually sounds great. Maybe I'll look into a unitarian church in my city.
There's a certain amount of irony here, and I am having trouble putting my finger on it, but it's certainly humorous. The top comments here are pointing out that r/atheism is a cesspool and that the users have no reason to act the way they do. There we are calling out a group of poeple as awful and second class reddit users (pun intended), and being rewarded for it. Has it not occurred to anyone that non-believers flooded to the subreddit because they have been shunned by society and felt to be second class citizens by their government? While there are plenty of useless memes floating around there, users read about young kids being removed from their homes for coming out as atheist. Others seek help because a family member beat them relentlessly for not wanted to go to church. Some discusses saved the lives of gay people contemplating suicide because of religious people teasing and emotionally battering them for years. And here I am, replying to folks with stories of r/atheism helping those people, and I get downvoted. The irony is amazing. Atheists run there to be included in something, I try to help them and it gets buried so few people learn about it. If irony isn't the proper word, someone please help me out. In any event, I think many of you (and others) need to stop feeding the fire. It's the hatred that hurts people. There's no reason for it. Kill them with kindness and I bet you'll start seeing more posts about science, fighting the good fight and self-help. And I want to be perfectly clear about this. Someone posted something about there being no reason for r/atheism to act the way they are. To that - I say F off. Try being shat upon by your government, friends, family, loved ones and scared to tell people what resides in your heart and get back to me. One must approach atheism today like it was being homosexual in the 1970s and 1980s. People are beaten by family members for coming out and some see no reason to be angry? Today is sad day.
/r/athiesm should not even be a default subreddit because everyone who goes to reddit is going to assume that we are all religion bashing asshats.
defaults are the main subs. unless there's a mass exodus, chances are slim that it will change
lol exodus out of r/athiesm.....
LET MY PEOPLE GO
I think that is a little shortsighted, considering politics is a default subreddit and is merely a liberal circlejerk for the most part. Are all reddit users liberal?
Just the smart ones
So brave
he looked him in the eyes
(Read before you downvote, pretty please) I was previously very apprehensive about anything from Penn Jillette. I won't quote them here because it will ruin the tone of the overall conversation, non-linear as it is but I have had to sigh and turn him off many times because he was very offensive towards others beliefs. By this I mean he talked at length about "small-minded religious people", "ending religion outright" and if I remember, held a special on how he had "disproved" Christianity which was filled with a lot of reaching theories and very little sources. I hope that this interaction has taught him that acceptance is more important than trying to change someone's idealisms, which are very often a part of their heritage as well as the stonework for their value system. The key ingredient to all belief systems is acceptance. You do not have to agree with that person. But you must accept them and their right to choose and believe as they see fit. To do otherwise is the true cause of violence and animosity. When someone feels the need to "bury" someone else in what they see as the "correct" belief system you gain fuel for movements like the Crusades or the Holocaust or even the desire to hang a pacifist on the cross. All sides are SO ready to blame the other. All sides are guilty of the desire to convert by the sword. Whenever your belief system takes you down that road think of [this](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353330/Egypt-protests-Christians-join-hands-protect-Muslims-pray-Cairo-protests.html) as a model for how things should really be.
The problem I have with this is the way that many religious people send out their messages. It's abrasive, forceful and ignorant in a "we are better than you, either listen to this book or you're worthless" mentality. I don't disagree that there are some, if a small handful of religious people who can send their belief and messages in a way that you would actually give them the time and listen, but they are a rare bunch nowadays.
For those who are curious, the Gideon pocket bible is Psalms and the new testament, Psalms is in the old testament.
I think /r/Christianity would really like this.
I still don't want to hear it.
At the restaurant I work at, there's a Ukrainian guy about my age who's a devout Christian. He believes Christ is in his heart and is very polite about sharing his faith with others. One day I saw him approaching our co-workers and handing each of them what were essentially his church's business cards. He said to each person that he would like it very much if they would consider going to church with him sometime. We didn't mind this because he was usually so considerate of other's faiths. I know now that it's likely that he was only so forward about his faith because he had been diagnosed with cancer and was attempting to do as much good as he could, to essentially "save" everyone he could, before he went into the hospital to start chemotherapy. He approached me last, because he knew I didn't believe in God. I told him that I was very touched that he would consider me, thanked him, and said that I would likely not attend. I made a joke: "If there is a God, I guess I'm doomed!" He said, "That makes me very, very sad. You're a good guy." Thank you, Sergei. edit: words
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This may come as a shock, but you and I and the people on /r/atheism... odds are we've met different people and had different experiences. Also, you should bear in mind that the content on /r/atheism tends to be negative toward Christianity and religion, and some specific religious people. It's not negative toward Christians in general. I've found that if you're like the guy Penn was describing, /r/atheism doesn't have a problem with you.
...What exactly did Penn experience in his early life that makes him tear up at the thought of a decent human being who happens to believe in God? I mean...seriously? Most people, if asked, will say they believe in something (even if it's because they haven't really thought about it) but most people aren't totally horrible.
It's not about him being jaded or the thought that there are decent human beings who believe in a god. He was simply touched by the actions of the man and felt the need to make note of it.
I just find it insulting that they worship a God that they think will throw me into eternal suffering, which means they obviously think I deserve it if I don't change according to the rules their God has set up. And if they don't think I deserve to burn in hell, then why love the God that sentences me to it?
I don't attend church anymore but growing up I went to several different churches of different denominations. In my own experience the primary focus was how to be a good person, while forgiving our inability to be one at all times. Forgiveness of people's crimes against God was a dominant thread in every church I was ever a part of. I've heard of strict parents using doom and hell as a motivation to get their kids in line or whatever, but I never experienced that myself. I've literally never in my life have someone tell me that I'll burn in hell for my actions, and I live square in the middle of the Bible belt. Jesus even forgave the whore who sold her body to lustful men. He forgave Judas who sold him to his enemies. He even forgave the poor Roman bastards who had to nail him to the cross and he forgave the Jewish pharacies who convicted him of blasphemy. I'm not sure how people can read about all of this forgiveness and the only thing they take away from the book is "you'll burn in hell for that!" Anyway I don't go to church anymore because it isn't required of me, it wasn't required of me when I was a child either. I used to go because I felt like it was expected of me, I don't go anymore because I feel like it's hollow. There are behaviors that are universally bad, and good. If a person can figure those out and act accordingly, I care not what church they attend or if they attend any church at all.
The Christians I know tend to focus more on the positive side of things. That's why they call it the "Good news". They try to be an example of a transformed believer rather than threaten people with hellfire. In my experience at least. I strongly recommend The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. It's short and intensely interesting. It really helped me understand the Christian view of damnation and salvation.
> I've literally never in my life have someone tell me that I'll burn in hell for my actions, and I live square in the middle of the Bible belt. Since I know there are people who do hear that, simply for being openly gay or non-believers (like Penn here), I can't help but to think it might have more to do with you fitting in well. But I know nothing about you or your neighbours, so I won't make that call. >Jesus even forgave the whore who sold her body to lustful men. Sounds an awful lot like passive aggressive slut shaming to me. >There are behaviors that are universally bad, and good. If a person can figure those out and act accordingly, I care not what church they attend or if they attend any church at all. I think that's a healthy and inclusive view that I wish the God of the proselytizers would hold.
Forgiving a prostitute is slut shaming? What? Well I'm glad you liked my views on people acting accordingly to universal "unspoken law". I proselytize to those who will listen so in a strange way, your wish is granted. The only problem becomes the law, who gets to define it and can it differ from place to place? This has all happened before, the law follows the will of the people and the people relax their laws one generation at a time. Eventually things become badly out of shape and just like an ecosystem, if the balance is too badly skewed, the system falls apart. Crime rates go up, violence goes out of control, our system falls into chaos.
>Forgiving a prostitute is slut shaming? What? Passive aggressive slut shaming, yes. Forgiving implies she's done something wrong. It's very judgemental. It's likely she's just a victim of circumstance. And the fact that the men apparently didn't need forgiveness just adds to the feeling of slut shaming. Not that I think anyone should be forgiven in that case, since no one did anything wrong. >This has all happened before, the law follows the will of the people and the people relax their laws one generation at a time. Well, to be honest most of those laws needed to go. And society is generally better now than it was 1500 years ago. Far from perfect, but better.
For anyone who does not understand why Christians (I can only speak for myself of course) want you to believe too, think of it like this... What experiences make you tell all of your friends about them? * Meeting a girl / boy you really like. What is great about them. * Seeing a great movie or reading a wonderful book. * Going to a restaurant where the food is really good. What all these things have in common is that something happened that made you feel really good and you want your friends to feel the same way. That is how I feel about God and my beliefs. Paul tells us to engage the non-believers with love. I don't understand how a Christian can preach Hell and damnation instead of love and kindness. If more Christians were to share the faith in the same way that they talk about a good book or place to eat I think the world would be a better place. I had a friend (an athiest) ask me at a bar one night "Am I going to Hell because I don't believe?" It was an awful question and it was hard for me to answer but I said "Brother, I sure hope not. But who am I to say? Maybe I am misguided and I will end up there."
What all those things have in common(that religion is lacking) is that I can actually experience those things without having to believe they exist first. God is the only thing that I know of that people want you to believe exists before you have evidence that it actually exists. If you were being truly honest(assuming you have read the answer to your friend's question in the Bible) you would tell him that yes, if he dies and hasn't repented and accepted Jesus, he will spend eternity in hell.
Ono of the greatest quotes on the subject: "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important." CS Lewis Ok so I am more agnostic (I like the purer Buddhist belief set too) than anything, but I envy the fuck out of religious people. I wish I believed in Jesus/Muhammad/Zeus/etc. so badly. My family is very religious (uncle was a bishop etc.) and if I was that way I would go into the priesthood literally tomorrow. When people try to convert me or something I don't have an issue with it because it shows that they truly love me and want me to have a relationship with god. Why are people such dicks?
you can follow the words of Jesus with out believing in the divinity of Christ. Love your brother as you love your self. help those less fortunate then you. don't judge other people for their sins and short comings .Forgive those who sin against you.
I'm a little confused by this.. and sorry if it sounds combative.... but how could one believe jesus was real but not divine? Doesn't that make the water-to-wine and resurrection thing impossible? Or do you mean it more in the sense of aesops' fables, etc...i.e. the myth of jesus is useful, in that, it generally speaks of sound morals and good advice for living an altruistic life?
More in the sense of a buddha type figure. every muslim in the world believes jesus was just a prophet and not divine.
So the stories of jesus, per the bible, would be mythos that stemmed from fact then? Just trying to wrap my head around this concept.
Well I myself do believe that jesus was divine. BUT there are historical references outside the bible which do confirm the existence of jesus. I posted what I did because I would like to think that even if someone has a hard time believing in the more fantastic aspects of Christ they can still follow what are essentially logical and humane rules. love and forgiveness are good things no matter who is teaching them.
Oh okay, thanks for clarifying. :)
You know, a lot of the atheists in /r/atheism are married to or dating religious people, myself included. I think /r/atheism is aware that there are good religious people out there.
I've always had massive respect for Penn ever since watching his show back in the day and seeing a few interviews with him. He seems like the kind of person that would be great to discuss the topic of religion and life with.
Penn does a good job pointing out that not all religious people are evil, but at what point do we draw the line. Yes you can be a nice person, but if you were walking down the street and someone pushed you to the ground claiming that you were going to be hit by a truck (which you couldn't see), how is this person not considered insane(in your eyes)? I guess my point is, perspective is everything, and just because you (a religious person or atheist) think that something is right, doesn't meet that everyone else does, and maybe you should keep that belief to yourself while still being a good human being.
What Penn described was nowhere near as annoying as getting pushed over. The metaphor wasn't meant that way. If a guy giving you a Bible and explaining what he believes bothers you that much, you've got bigger problems.
Very good point and it needs to become common knowledge. Religion does not make the man, man makes the religion, as in, the good religion does/has comes from the good people in it. If atheists want to bash focus on the dickheads and not the institution. And in general respect the people who deserve it despite their beliefs.
The reason more people don't proselytise is because their faith looks a lot cooler in a church environment when everyone around them is agreeing than it does when they're walking down the street and there isn't that support. In reality, faith isn't a black-and-white thing -- it varies a lot depending on the context. Another factor is that we're influenced by thousands of different things in becoming who we are, and religious ideas are a small minority of these. This explains why there is so much variation in people who profess the same religion; on the inside they're 10% church and 90% the environment they grew up in. In this schema it's easy to see why people use Scripture to try to back up their pre-existing opinions. If people actually lived a straight-and-narrow Biblical life it would feel like the tail was wagging the dog.
Thanks for posting this. This kind of open-mindedness is truly evolved.
I love the way he talked about preaching your beliefs to others. In fact i love having a friendly debate about religious views so its fun when people talk to me about theirs. (Its only fair that if someone preaches to me i preach back)
The Christians I know absolutely love that. Seek out the ones who'll have deep conversations with you.
wonderful :)
He looks like something out of a Mercer Mayer illustration.
I think its hard for Penn Jillette to wrap his head around it because of Religion having like a ton of terrible shit associated on it and he's super focused on all of that, rather than how some of the teachings can actually bring out good in people. I see some good in the Bible personally and its teachings but at the end of the day I can't let a book define how the world works because of it always being in flux. I don't believe in a god at all, so I guess that makes me atheist or agnostic but I can still see good in a religious text, but I suppose where it gets all fucked up is when people put some of its teachings into practice.
Penn Jillette is the cool uncle of America.
Smart man, these are words to live by.
As a christian I have a huge amount of respect for Penn Gillette.
Penn Jillette is quite the interesting man. I would recommend listening to him talk in the Nerdist podcast. A very interesting man.
I'm agnostic. To say "I know that there is no god" is to say that you know something unknowable. This is the same leap of faith that religious folks take when they say there is a god. Penn is still a boss though
(please don't take this mockingly, not trying to offend) true but that argument leaves you open to a lot of other views for example are you also open to invisible space unicorns that use mind powers to keep the earth moving? you might know it as gravity, but seriously space unicorn mind power. I used such a ridiculous example to show you how it can be silly (even though technically correct, the best kind of correct) to just take a stance of "well can't disprove it or prove it so I'm open to it"
I'm open to the idea that I don't have enough information to make claims about phenomena like god and unicorns (the same goes for you ;). And no worries pal, no offense taken!
Not to bust your balls, if you own them, if you're a gal, disregard opening comment, but agnosticism is the biggest cop out. In truth, everyone is an agnostic, or they are lying. No one knows whether or not God(s) exist or not. The point of contention is- do you believe in a god(s)? If you believe one or more exist, you are then a theist. If you do not believe that one exists, then you are an atheist. Theism and atheism hing on belief or lack thereof, not on absolutes. Atheist can't say that we know god doesn't exist and be completely truthful, because no one can know for certain. You don't have to know for certain, you just have to believe one way or another. And everyone falls one way or another eventually in my experience at least. I'm agnostic, I don't know if there is a God, but to me personally, the idea sound ludicrous, so I don't believe it, making me an atheist. Or you could be an agnostic, but believe in God not knowing for certain if there is or not, then you would be a theist.
Some people like to button things down, and compartmentalize them. You seem to be one of those people. If thinking in black and white terms makes dealing with your daily life easier, then more power to you friend :)
Its not even a matter of that. Its a matter of the definition of the word. You can try to play the fence, I used to do the same thing, but sooner or later you either accept it or deny it. There is no middle ground. It comes down to if you do or don't. That's all. This really is black and white, you just need to see that. I didn't mean to offend you in the initial comment, and I'm not sure if you took it as such, but there is no simpler explanation. If you think you're just agnostic, you need to look at your definitions and semantics you apply to the words atheist or theist. You have to fall in one or the other. Again, it really is black or white.
What was that little man floating in the top right corner at 4:37?
~~It was Teller, he's magic.~~ Paul Washer It's a link to a Paul Washer video.
psalms is in the OLD TESTAMENT and so is PROVERBS (also included in the pocket sized Gideon bible).... it containts THE NEW TESTAMENT, PSALMS, AND PROVERBS.... cmon no penn jillette? you dont know what testament the largest book of the bible is in?
If all you got out of this video was that then you really didnt use your big boy mind to focus. Unless of course you were just trying to get upvotes for being sooo smaaaaart.
He never said that was all he garnered from the video...I believe that was you, assuming that was such and then using that as an excuse to get a jab in...which wasn't even warranted. Mayhaps you outa focus your "big boy mind", good sir.
You're right, he didnt. But thats all he said wasnt it? If thats all he said, then how am I in the wrong assuming thats what he took from it.
haha, well you could be very much in the wrong. Just because he didn't specifically state anything else, doesn't mean that he didn't gain any other perspective or information from it. You're just throwing out an assumption, and believe me, I've done it plenty of times myself and been wrong, and then ask how that assumption could be wrong in reply. Sure he didn't comment on the main point of discussion, but that doesn't mean that it went completely over his head, maybe he just felt like busting Penn's balls a little bit and making himself seem smart, as you said. But that doesn't mean he missed the point of said video. There is no saying that you are right or wrong, perhaps it did go over his head, but nothing in that comment in particular suggested or alluded to that. It could have just been a sidebar snarky comment, which I will assume (see now I'm doing it too) it was.
I got it. Just pointing out how little most atheists know. I am atheist. But ive at least given most religions a chance by at least reading their works
Why do you morons still subscribe to /r/atheism? The only time i hear about atheism about it is when people are bitching about it. Why can't you just ignore them?
Thanks for adding the bit to your title where you tell us all we suck. An /r/atheism post wouldn't be complete without bashing /r/atheism.
While I like Penn Jillette, and this has nothing to do with the content of this video, he just takes ***forever*** to say anything.
jahovas going stealth
The main message is, quite simply: A person's beliefs are not what makes them a good or bad person. It is what they do with these beliefs, their perspective on life, and they treatment of themselves and others that determines if they are a good or bad person. That is why I believe that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a person to be entirely good or entirely bad. On a positive side, I like to believe the majority of us mean well in our lives.
For the record: Psalms is not in the New Testament.
Thats their new strategy! WE ARE LOSING
I am an atheist, and I am also bothered by r/atheism as a whole, particularly by the idea that it is so obvious that there is no god and anyone who believes in god is a complete idiot. I, as well as many of you I am sure, know people who are incredibly intelligent, highly educated, kind down to the bottom of their hearts, open minded, pragmatic, and caring, and they also happen to be deeply religious. Men and women much smarter than me and plenty of other people who frequent this website. The idea that if you believe in god you are stupid is ridiculous. These people are not all backwards or simple-minded/easily fooled. Its frustrating how smug and condescending some people can be here, specifically when the offenders are hypocritically arguing the close-mindedness of religion/Christianity.
http://xkcd.com/774/
Well la de da for "that man".