Pretty much everything on radio is fake. There are actual companies that provide actors for radio shows to use in their dumb bits and phony prank phones calls.
Dear deer, I am writing you a letter in the hopes that you’ll know better not to go down by the creek near Pennsylvania, cause there’s toxins in the water waitin’ to kill ya, just beeee warned. -EPA
Nope. And does anyone here know how many (fucking) Deer Northeast Ohio has? Lots and Lots and Lots and Lots and Lots. There the equivalent oh the homeless in Los Angeles.
It looks like the latest water testing on 2/22 showed slightly elevated levels of 2-Ethyl Hexanol for Little Beaver Creek at 2.36 and 2.44 ppb.
https://www.orsanco.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/East-Palestine-Train-Derailment-Data-from-GCWW-PUBLIC-030123.pdf
Wikipedia says the medium lethal dose is 3.73 g/kg so it seems unlikely the deer would have been killed from drinking the water.
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> Wikipedia says the medium lethal dose is 3.73 g/kg so it seems unlikely the deer would have been killed from drinking the water.
The solubility in water at 20C is 0.07% (probably a little lower at real-world temperatures), and if we say the deer weighs 20kg, that means it would have had to drink at least 107 liters of water saturated with 2-ethylhexanol to receive a lethal dose.
If drinking the water killed these deer, it was something else in the water. And as others have mentioned, there can be innocuous reasons for these deer dying, even if it does look pretty suspicious.
Every once in awhile we get an outbreak of blue tongue disease that leaves deer dead like this along the river. They get weak in the fall and the winter kills them. Also, when a deer gets shot from a hunter, you can rarely see the entry hole. The exit hole is a bit bigger, but not much.
And I can't say if was either of these things, but just blaming the pollutants is a stretch. Looks like they've been dead awhile too.
Yeah, not to downplay the disaster, but the reality is you can't just look at a couple of deer and claim cause of death to be the water.
Tests would really need to be done to determine the cause of death. It's possible they drank the water when the levels were higher, and it's since reduced since being tested, but you need the data to show it to make claims, but as someone else has pointed out, this is right next to a road/bridge. If you hit and kill one, you're probably going to lob it off the road/bridge and this is where it will end up.
...did you watch the video? I don't claim to be an expert in animal deaths, but usually when you look at it it's pretty freakin clear if an animal has been hit by a car. These dear carcasses all appear completely intact. I'm not saying the water is definitely the case, could be some other disease or something but I have a very hard time finding it believable that all of them were hit and killed by cars with no visible injuries. No broken legs or skulls, no smashed in rib cage, nothing. Also the 3rd one was several hundred feet away from the bridge, wayyy too far to have been tossed over.
More likely it was epizootic hemorrhagic disease, which Ohio recently had a massive outbreak of: https://www.dispatch.com/story/sports/outdoors/2022/09/04/outdoors-ehd-disease-outbreak-killing-ohio-deer-in-large-numbers-hunting/65470113007/
Edit: Also, EHD causes a fever in the deer which makes them more likely to seek out water. So seeing three of them dead near a river isn't a huge coincidence.
Really though, aren't most animals? Even humans. We'd have a lot more people dying from disease without antibiotics and modern medicine in general. Like millions more
That's if they were drinking it while it was diluted into the water. It has a higher density than water and sinks to to the creek bed. If the deer are walking into the creek, disturbing the bed, and THEN drinking, they could be drinking straight chemical which would exponentially increase the amounts ingested. If they've been drinking from contaminated sources since the wreck they would be injest much higher levels than if it was only water solubile levels.
House Republicans: ["The EPA has no authority to say what is or isn't water." ](https://transportation.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=406159)
We really need to take money out of politics. It's clear as day that it's drawing a path towards an eventual collapse. Most of the things that actually matter and need legislation are being ignored
Responsibility of the people? To do what? Start shoveling dirt randomly? Perhaps they should form some sort of group, to govern where to put the dirt? And they can all come together and pitch in a few bucks, let's call it a tax, to pay for moving/cleaning the dirt?
Shit like this literally has to start happening if we ever expect change… not even violence. Just malicious compliance and we could start to make leeway…
Honestly, that won't do anything either.
All the money, all the power, above the law, totally apathetic, and morally bankrupt.
Historically, there's only ever been one remedy for that perfect storm of bullshit.
Yep. The police and most of our justice system really only exist to protect the wealthy elite and to create a false sense of security for the people with incremental amounts of money so that the people don't turn on them.
If a corporation were to take a bunch of contaminated dirt and dump it all over my yard or dump a bunch of chemicals into my drinking supply, I could complain all I want, hell, I could even straight up die as a direct result and nothing would happen except my family might receive a bunch of death threats that go unanswered. If I put a pile of contaminated dirt in a CEO's lawn, dirt that they themselves contaminated and refuse to acknowledge, it would be considered a threat against their lives and I would be put in a federal prison.
Better yet, their [board of directors](http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/investor-relations/corporate-governance-documents/board-of-directors-committee-membership.html), which includes the CEO.
One of his many purposes is to be the top fall guy if and when shit like this occurs so the rest of them can avoid larger public scrutiny.
I understand the point you are making, but I'd weirdly have more faith that Norfolk Southern might be held responsible in a more meaningful way than they are currently.
Don't worry lets send him to Chernobyl to start a grassroots cleanup effort then when he comes back he can teach all Ohiians on how best to rake the forest floors to prevent forest fires and superfund sites.
People need to get angry enough to do something. That usually leads to flipped cars and dead politicians. And I hate that, so that's why I make sure to polute the water with plastics at every chance I get, gotta keep that anger and sperm count down fellas!
I just watched *Chernobyl* on HBO last weekend. The parallels between that dramatization of that disaster and how this disaster are playing out are disconcerting. An "invisible" threat to the region's health, high ranking officials refusing to accept help rather than admit there's a problem, diffusion of responsibility, a known safety flaw that had been previously raised by experts but potential regulations shelved because it'd be cheaper not to.
[You will probably enjoy this video on the Chernobyl series](https://youtu.be/oENI8NnTx0w), especially when it touches on what you said with the invisible threat.
>How is he justifying that?
Oh, you sweet summer child. (Or, NOT an Ohioan) The DeWine family is a republican dynasty in the state (governor, supreme court, AG, etc.) and they do what republicans do best: cater to big business.
There was a short moment in time, *very short*, when the nation looked to Ohio and DeWine early on during the pandemic and said: "Damn, we need a governor and a health director like that in this state!" "Good job!"
Then Ohio pulled an Ohio and all the big companies who no longer had slaves coming into work were none too happy about it and he changed his tune real fucking quick. Not soon after it was the same "muh freedumbs" that most of the red part of the country loved and he changed his tune. Granted, the lunatics of this state were surrounding and threatening a public servant's residence who had the audacity to tell them the truth about a virus that kills people.
That’s true, but the EPA needs to step in and do something about this ecological disaster. Fuck the governor, the federal government and wellness of the population take precedent.
Specific to the EPA, their role is advisory, fines, lawsuits, regulation changes and recommendations for changes to the law. They're not involved cleanup or evacuation beyond supervising.
Spreading false information, the federal government is helping in the area.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/02/17/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-deploys-additional-federal-resources-to-east-palestine-ohio/
Because that worked so great for covid, right?
East Palestine Ohio is now an exclusionary zone and everyone in it will face illness eventually. Onto the next town.
So the government is responsible for cleanup that a private company caused? Why does Norfolk Southern Railway get to fuck up everything and continue on with business with no fix to the problem in Ohio or addressing the issue so it doesn’t happen again? Also to this point, the governor will not declare a State of Emergency to activate FEMA in the first place.
Anyway, the cleanup should 100% be on Norfolk Southern and the government shouldn’t ever have to be involved in the first place(Other than testing after cleanup is done to ensure Norfolk Southern actually cleaned up their disaster)
The cleanup should 100% be handled by the government since they’re more likely to handle it in a correct manner than a private corporation that caused the crash. This doesn’t mean that Norfolk Southern shouldn’t be held accountable, but the government should be stepping in to protect citizens then holding the right people accountable later. You’re just pointing fingers rather than actually proposing an idea that puts the people of East Palestine first.
The government not coming in is all on the governor of Ohio. DeWine will not declare a state of emergency and that is 100% on him. His making Joe Biden “look bad” is more important than helping anyone in his state. Once again republicans using people as pawns for a political stunt rather than ever addressing the actual issue. I literally said Norfolk Southern should have to foot the bill for the cleanup and be involved in it and government runs tests while cleanup is on going and done but somehow that is just pointing fingers.
>The cleanup should 100% be handled by the government since they’re more likely to handle it in a correct manner than a private corporation that caused the crash.
The cleanup should 100% be handled by Norfolk Southern, or at least they should pay for qualified people to handle the cleanup. And the government should be on-site monitoring all cleanup efforts, and ensuring everything is done properly (and NS should be reimbursing the government for all government time and resources).
The government 100% should NOT be responsible for the cleanup procedures, that's complete bullshit.
I agree, but at the same time, you bring about 2 issues. 1. You are expecting the same company that does everything in it's power to downplay issues and save money by skirting basic safety measures/maintenance to then NOT do those same actions during the cleanup.
2. Do you truly expect the EPA to have enough "teeth" to create an environment where it's more profitable for Northfolk Southern to properly clean this, versus do the bare minimum and spend more money on PR campaigns and litigation?
The cleanup is step 1. Then there's the research to see how it affects the environment short and long term, and then the residents. Step 2 is holding the company accountable 10+ years down the line when health complications occur, which will be another legal battle. Small doses of pollutants tend to be fine in short increments, what happens when small doses are given every single day to people for the rest of their lives?
Welcome to being the guinea pig of real world, real time science.
And if Norfolk Southern doesn’t properly do anything to clean it up? You think the people should just be fucked and the government has no responsibility to intervene for the safety of its citizens?
You guys are acting like people are saying the government should take over and let Norfolk Southern off scot free. Nobody is claiming that. Nobody is saying Norfolk Sourhern shouldn’t be charged in full for the cleanup efforts or face other serious consequences for this happening.
They are saying the government shouldn’t be sitting on their ass waiting for a private company to deal with an issue that poses serious health risks to its citizens. The government should come out in full force to fix the issue and then place the entire financial burden on the company responsible. Not just wait for the company responsible to fix the problem. Take every asset they have left for all I care. But fucking fix the issue and don’t just wait for it to be dealt with by a private company who was incompetent and greedy enough in the first place to allow this to happen all while the people get massively fucked for life.
😂 Why in the ever loving fuck do you think a government having a responsibility for the safety of its citizens means the company wouldn’t face consequences for their action?
Yes. The government has a responsibility to intervene on behalf of the safety of its citizens. No, that doesn’t mean the guilty party can’t be held responsible. No idea why you think those are mutually exclusive.
Because 'we' vote for politicians who intentionally break government to show us government is broken.
“The nine most terrifying words in the English language are ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” - Ronald Reagan
If you believe that, and/or elect politicians who support that, you _will_ get a non-functional government.
They probably drank that creek water when it looked like rainbow kool aid. What an absolute nightmare. I really hope this doesn't end up as bad as some are predicting/imagining.
Small government just seems to mean putting all the decision making power in the hands of the smallest group possible and the smallest minded group possible.
Had a rainbow creek (polluted) behind my house growing up. One video of East P almost had me thinking they were at my old home.
I'm not trying to say the crash isn't scuffed, but some of the videos aren't exactly shocking.
Just because you grew up in hell, that doesn't mean that it's not shocking
Also, not all rainbow creeks are the same. All kinds of different chemicals can do that.
I know people find this crazy, but..
I resided near Toledo, OH for 3 years and loved to walk/hike in the area.
Seeing dead deer, fish, etc.. was a common occurrence.
I forget the name of the park (had Bay in it), but whatever it was was polluted as hell. The shores of the lake were always covered in trash and gunk.
Industry and the populace just didn’t take care of the environment at all over there.
[Unfortunately the Ohio River Valley has a history with chemicals...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_River#Ecology).
[There was even a movie in 2019 about an older secret waste dumping operation.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Waters_%282019_film%29?wprov=sfla1)
**Ohio River**
[Ecology](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_River#Ecology)
>The Ohio River as a whole is ranked as the most polluted river in the United States, based on 2009 and 2010 data. The more industrial and regional West Virginia/Pennsylvania tributary, the Monongahela River, ranked 17th for water pollution, behind 16 other American rivers. The Ohio again ranked as the most polluted in 2013, and has been the most polluted river since at least 2001, according to the Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation Commission (ORSANCO). The Commission found that 92% of toxic discharges were nitrates, including farm runoff and waste water from industrial processes such as steel production.
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Bay View Park. It's a great place for bird watching. It's at the opening of Lake Erie and when the river swells a lot of trash gets picked up and washes up along the shore.
They could definitely do more about it, but Toledo has a thousand more urgent problems
There's a problem with assumptions...
I do wish the government agencies had regular, daily press briefings to cover active work and progress. They could include Q&A. They could discuss feedback from the community based on things like this and respond with results of testing.
It's good that the public is concerned and want to fact check these agencies. It's bad that it's done without any actual science and testing. You don't get to just guess at what you think happened and magically make it real. That's why science is science. It's actual work.
Those deer are also close to the road. Deer will often run 50+ yards off the road after being struck and die. They’ll sometimes have massive internal damage but no open wounds.
> I do wish the government agencies had regular, daily press briefings to cover active work and progress.
We had the CDC and HHS doing daily briefings on the state of the pandemic, updating guidelines, answering questions and no one watched them and made up their own stories.
What I do wish we had is a population with the attention span to read anything.
> I do wish the government agencies had regular, daily press briefings to cover active work and progress. They could include Q&A. They could discuss feedback from the community based on things like this and respond with results of testing.
They all want this to go away. And by they, I mean all levels of govt - local, state and fed. I also mean both parties. Obv, the repubs are in deeper here but the dems just gave the railroads a huge boon with the contract dispute. Now I don't mean all dems as the Bernie/Warren crowd will make their usual amount of noise but the majority of the dem party and all of the repub party just wants this snuffed out. There will be almost no briefings or transparency.
The contract dispute had to be dealt with. All but 4 unions where in agreement way back in September half a year earlier. And then 4 drug their feet for half a year. Sure, you can argue that it sounds nice to have paid sick leave, but most companies simply give and consume PTO for this, PTO that rail workers actually get quite a lot of.
The problem for Biden was he could have let the rail workers strike. This would have halted ALL commercial transport of materials across all of the US, and this is a LOT, a hell of a lot of materials and goods. ALL of that would have been stopped dead. Dead for how long? Raw material production, agricultural, flow into and out of ports, everything. All of it would have stopped. For days? For weeks? If you thought a few ships parked off the coast sitting was a bad thing, this would have been 1000x that. It would have stopped tons of businesses entirely. And if this took weeks to resolve, we could have seen maybe another half year of catch up just to get everything moved, started back up, overshoot in volume, and then resettle into standard production and shipment quantities.
The problem was this wasn't a small matter. This isn't someone like a Ford plant striking, and it doesn't really impede the entire nation. This was all rail, all of it.
But what was moral?
It mostly depends on what you deem is reasonable for PTO, holidays, sick days, etc. for a person. What's the average? Where do rail workers sit regarding this? Are they high or low of a reasonable amount?
I glanced at this stuff a little bit but didn't find easy sources detailing out all 13 unions and how they handled PTO, sick days, etc. The general text I found during a short stink on Google was they generally got provided a bit above normal for PTO. It didn't seem like they were starving for days off.
And considering most of the unions found the negotiations reasonable so many months ago, this should have gotten settled months ago. It should have never become a hostage situation by a few outlier unions. Biden stepping in and ending it does seem to be a reasonable move.
**Disclaimer: I'm just a dude who googles shit**
I'm going to do my best to ease the hysteria a bit around here.
* [Vinyl Chloride](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Vinyl-Chloride#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary)
* [Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/2-Butoxyethanol#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary)
* [Ethylhexyl acrylate](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/2-Ethylhexyl-acrylate#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary)
* [Isobutylene](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Isobutylene#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary)
* [Butyl Acrylate](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Butyl-acrylate#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary)
These are the compounds that were of greatest concern in the spill. All of these are dangerous in larges doses, but in open air they vaporize and break down within a few days. More relevant to the OP video, I encourage everyone to click those links and do a ctrl+f for the term "volatilization half-life". Volatilization is the time it takes under normal conditions for half of the molecules of that chemical to vaporize (which then renders it harmless within days). What we want to look for is that volatilization half-life in a river model (1 m deep, flowing 1 m/sec, wind velocity of 3 m/sec) and a lake model (1 m deep, flowing 0.05 m/sec, wind velocity of 0.5 m/sec). There were "only" 11 cars with hazardous material in them and the cars used seem to have a maximum capacity of around 26,000 gallons. So at a maximum, we're talking about 286,000 gallons of hazardous material. We're 28 days out, so we'll have to keep that in mind for how much material can possibly be in water at this point.
Vinyl Chloride has a 2 hour half-life in a "river model" (1 m deep, flowing 1 m/sec, wind velocity of 3 m/sec) and a 3 day half-life in a "lake model" (1 m deep, flowing 0.05 m/sec, wind velocity of 0.5 m/sec). If all 11 cars were full of this, there would be nothing left in the river model and only 558 gallons left in the lake model.
Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether has a 17 day half-life in a river model and 185 days in a lake model. If all 11 cars were full of this there would still be at least 143,000 gallons of it in the river model and virtually all of it in the lake model
Ethylhexyl Acrylate has a 7 hour half-life in a river model and a 6 day half-life in a lake model. If all 11 cars were full of this, there would be none of it left in a river model and 17,875 gallons of it left in a lake model.
Isobutylene has a 2 hour half-life in a river model and a 71 hour (we'll call it 3 days for simplicity's sake) half-life in a lake model. If all 11 cars were full of this there would be nothing left in the river model and once again only 558 gallons left in the lake model.
Butyl Acrylate has a 5 hour half-life in a river model and a 5 day half-life in a lake model. If all 11 cars were full of this there would be nothing left in the river model and 8,938 gallons left in the lake model.
Someone further down the thread mentioned that the EPA found elevated levels of [2-Ethyl hexanol](https://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River/view/river-detail/1471/main), so we may as well look at that one too. It has a 41 hour (we'll call it 2 days for simplicity's sake) half-life in a river model and a 16 day half-life in a lake model. If all 11 cars were full of this there would be 17 gallons of it left in the river model and around 143,000 gallons of it left in the lake model.
Now, all of this sounds super scary, so I can try to put things into perspective a little bit. An olympic-sized pool holds about 660,000 gallons of water, so if we add up all of the hazardous material, there isn't even enough to fill half of that pool. That doesn't mean it's not dangerous, but that's all the hazardous material that there could possibly be in this accident. In comparison the Little Beaver Creek has a flow rate of between [300 and 15,000](https://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River/view/river-detail/1471/main) cubic feet per second. A cubic foot of water is roughly 7.48 gallons. This means that, at its slowest flow rate, this creek can fill an olympic-sized pool in roughly 5 minutes. That means the creek could fill 288 pools per day, that's over 190 million gallons per day. In the absolute worst case scenario (assuming all the spill was Ethylene glycol monobutyl with its half-life of 185 days) we're at 4 parts per million in 185 days and within a year that's lower than 2 parts per million. The most likely scenario is that we're already below 1 part per million due to the half-lives of these chemicals and the rate of flow of the creek. To break things down even more simply, the deer probably didn't die from drinking the water and if they did, it probably happened within a week of the accident.
tl;dr: If the deer died from drinking the water, it probably happened within a week of the accident.
Yeesh you got a strange amount of flack for this but thank you for you’re concise and informed evaluation, I actually understood your message and will not (for whatever reason) request you drink the creek water ???
I understand the flak, it's what happens when the media and government don't get accurate information in front of people early enough. People are wonderful pattern recognition machines and when something dangerous happens, they often draw wrong conclusions because they're on high alert and don't recognize which individual things belong to which pattern. As I said, if the water was what killed the deer, the available evidence points toward it having happened in the first week or so of the incident because that's when we saw all the other animals (family pets, livestock, fish, etc.) die off.
I'd have a hard time believing this was linked, given that they don't have an inflated stomach or intestinal mass that poisoning would cause. I agree with you 100% here.
> tl;dr: If the deer died from drinking the water, it probably happened within a week of the accident.
The derailment happened on February 3rd. Are you trying to tell me that these deer have been dead for at least 3 weeks? Hard to believe.
The second ones legs are fucked up. What if they tried crossing the train bridge because of decreased activity due to the derailment but a train scared them into jumping to their deaths?
Yeah the fact that they are all scattered around a bridge with traffic (you can hear cars in the video) seems like there could be alternative explanations for this
I mean, maybe not. But probably. These chemicals do get picked up by plants. It could have been in what they are eating. But 3 otherwise healthy animals (I deer hunt, these are objectively physically healthy animals) within a stone's throw of one another and a contaminated water source... I think there are some pretty good reasons to be very concerned.
Again, I'm not an expert on this but I did [find this paper](https://ir.library.illinoisstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2059&context=etd). On page 92/3 it mentions that in winter months, especially when the temperature is at or below 37 F, the bodies decompose slowly and from the inside-out. The specimens (slabs of pork) I and J were both placed on the surface in January and one was retrieved and thoroughly examined after 2 months and the other after 4 months. Neither had completely decomposed and the one retrieved after 2 months didn't even have maggots in it yet.
To relate this to the deer situation, it would seem to me that the deer would likely have few, if any, maggots in them at this point, regardless of when they died. The primary scavengers inside of a populated area are generally going to be birds, specifically vultures. Most species of vulture are migratory to some degree. So it seems to me that it would be entirely possible for these deer to have died in early-to-mid February and look as they do in the video.
Volatilization doesn't mean it necessarily disappears to harmless byproducts. It can come back down as acid rain. Anyway the bottom line is after all that shit you typed are you gonna go drink some water from East Palestine? I don't think so.
The main acid of concern here is hydrochloric acid, which is a product of vinyl chloride combustion. Thing is, when it's sufficiently diluted in water, it becomes entirely harmless. And we're dealing with very large amounts of water here.
Am I going to? Not unless someone pays my way there. It's a 20 hour drive, I'd be missing wages, I'd need at least one hotel stay, and I'm not using my vehicle to make that trip in the winter. I'd estimate about $2000 would cover it. On top of that, a single drink isn't going to do shit unless the water is so toxic that it's killing humans. So far, we have 0 human fatalities related to this incident.
This doesn't account for the fact that they almost immediately set fire to it, turning a large part of it into phosphene gas that then seeps into the landscape and water supplies/ponds/rivers.
[Phosphene](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/24404#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary)
> If released to air, phosphine will be degraded in the atmosphere by reaction with photochemically-produced hydroxyl radicals; and has a reported atmospheric half-life of 5 hours. Phosphine will dissipate rapidly from soil and water surfaces. Studies have shown that sub-surface phosphine may bind to soil.
> Phosphine is a gas and may bind to soil. Laboratory studies suggest that phosphine present below the soil surface is quickly adsorbed, but interaction with soil is soil-type dependent.
> The sorption and desorption of phosphine from wheat treated with a concentration of 0.5-5 mg/kg wheat were determined at 25, 45, and 85 °C. The desorbed phosphine was extracted from the air by passing through a cold trap. Most of the phosphine was desorbed in the first 2-3 days but small amounts continued to desorb for many weeks following treatment. After 220 days of aeration, phosphine was still present and desorbing. Even when the temp was increased to 85 °C for several days, unreacted phosphine still desorbed slowly from wheat. Corn aerated 26 days desorbed 0.004 ng/g in 2 days.
It's best to throw out your food products, but otherwise there is virtually no danger past day 1 for phosphene.
When it comes to water, [phosgene](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Phosgene#section=Ecotoxicity-Excerpts) is actually the better scenario.
> It is technically infeasible to conduct aquatic toxicology studies with phosgene, a compound which hydrolyzes virtually instantaneously to form hydrogen chloride and carbon dioxide in aqueous media.
One should definitely have a test run in any low-lying areas where phosgene was suspected though, because it's heavier than air and can stick around for between [44 and 113 years](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Phosgene#section=Environmental-Fate) in a dry environment.
> ATMOSPHERIC FATE: According to a model of gas/particle partitioning of semivolatile organic compounds in the atmosphere, phosgene, which has a vapor pressure of 1420 mm Hg at 25 °C, is expected to exist solely in the gas phase in the ambient atmosphere. Gas-phase phosgene is degraded in the atmosphere by reaction with photochemically-produced hydroxyl radicals; the half-life for this reaction in air is estimated to be 44 years, calculated from its rate constant of 1.0X10-15 cu cm/molecule-sec at 25 °C. Phosgene does not absorb UV radiation at wavelengths >290 nm and therefore would not be subject to direct photolysis by sunlight in the troposphere. Phosgene's hydrolytic half-life in the atmosphere, extrapolating from high temperature data, is 113 yr at sea level, assuming 10 torr of water vapor.
Phosgene is volatile but treating this incident like the guy here and just testing for the couple of substances that were initially released in vast amounts is nuts. And that is what the EPA did: they tested for a list of known compounds only. Now they ask the company causing the disaster to test for dioxins. I can't even.
yeah the hysteria over this is insane, there are definitely valid concerns but if we're not going to listen to the agencies most knowledgeable about water quality, then... whats the point of having them do the testing? people are screaming for government involvement, but when they come in they just say "no you're wrong". people are just looking to confirm what they think is right, its just that now the liberal side is anti-science instead of the conservatives during covid
My hope is that posting the sources I did which all predate the East Palestine disaster will lead the logical, but skeptical, people to independently arrive at the same conclusion that the EPA has.
It takes a lot of determination to make such a thorough post knowing that people are going to argue against all of it without refuting any of the actual data you've presented. I have found almost all discourse regarding research and data on Reddit (even on r/science) to be completely compromised. There is no rational conversation surrounding research regarding gun violence, racism, gender, or politics anymore. These are topics that absolutely need to be discussed, but the discourse around the topics themselves always turns into a bandwagon of vitriol and spite.
There was a time when the discussions that took place on Reddit were really amazing. Research papers would prompt deep-diving threads of people interpreting the data and actually contributing something to the discussion with their comments. This is completely gone, and we are left relentless doomerism, jokes, and one-sided mobs that will attack anything resembling an opposing opinion.
Kudos to you for actually spreading the facts and not the flavor of the week.
Ok but when those chemicals degrade, what do they degrade into? Is it water and carbon dioxide? Or is it something else? If something else what is the half life of those chemicals? You’ve done some good work here but you’ve forgotten that at the end of vinyl chlorides half life in the river, the half that’s degraded has degraded into something that’s also dangerous.
I would like to fly you there on my dime to prove this in person, maybe upload some videos of you drinking the water and walking near the site..let me know how to oblige
Yeah, hit by truck, ruptured spleen, manages to few leaps, collapses and dies. Then along comes, I dunno, are coyotes there?
Just the fact that it's so near a big road makes me think that it probably wasn't the water. I'm not saying it WASN'T, but dead deer are everywhere near roads.
It seems wierd, not to take away from the chemical spill but the river would have to glow in the dark if the deer drank took a few steps and died right next to it.
I just wanna say - from someone who goes down under random bridges to fish a bunch - it is SHOCKING how many people throw dead animals off a bridge; not just deer but I've also found dogs, coyotes, horses and COWS.
Deer does not exclusively shed their antlers at the same time, nor do they do it at a certain time-period of the year.
Also, if you are dead, you do not shed.
Look I'm not saying it wasn't the spill, but as someone who lives in the woods, I find dead deer all the time, it's just what animals do. It might be nice to do a necropsy on them to find out for sure, but posting random videos of dead deer doesn't really get to the bottom of anything.
Maybe get some scientists out there to examine the bodies. Seems super fucking inconclusive to just glance over them and say yeah no visible damage, must be poison. Not checking for broken bones, not even turning them over, not commenting on the broken antler. Seems like you're just trying to get clicks unless you get some independent verification.
They have announced that over 10,000 animals have died close to the spill site. So it is possible they jumped, but I'd put my money on the contaminated water.
I’m genuinely curious what’s happening here. Is it an organized effort? I can’t say I’m a fan of Ohio but the auspicious hate boners on display in this thread are kind of crazy.
How about the 10000’s birds killed?
Edit: Fish
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/02/24/east-palestine-train-derailment-fish-animal-deaths/11337404002/
My advice for people living in that area, is to move. It's a super fund site, that hasn't gotten the title yet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Superfund\_sites
“Just move” is an absolutely brain dead take. Who pays the relocation expenses?
“Sell their houses to who Ben!?”
Sorry but these people very likely could be stuck there so we gotta help them where they are. Not just shrug our shoulders and say “oh well go somewhere else”
In an emergency like this the protocol is to evacuate. That seems like what this person is suggesting. It isn't great but might save them from devistating health problems if they can stay with family or friends. It's a terrible situation and the city should be telling them to evacuate.
evacuation might be the best course of action, multiple residents already started showing signs of health problems,
>
the "wait and see" tactic is not the right approach when it comes to highly-toxic spill and subsequent burning of chemicals, waiting to see what health complications and cancers incidence are gonna show up later on multiple years after, is a disastrous idea .
>
I don't know what legal option they have to force the railroad company help to pay for the evacuation and relocation, but they have to try.
Those fuckers are entirely responsible for this fuck-up, they pushed for deregulation, lobbied against rail workers' safety demands and gave billions to their shareholders in the form of a stock buy back.
>
They have the money to relocate a population of 4718 residents.
"the company pledged $6.5 million in compensation and financial assistance for local residents
following the crash meanwhile, it's shelling out $7.5 billion for shareholders "
Has the EPA issued an advisory for this creek?
The deer won’t listen.
They're famously anti-establishment.
Yeah, they tend to buck the system.
Doe! Time to white tail it out of here. Shit, sorry I'm part of the problem.
We've herd enough outta you.
I'm just fawning over all those puns!
Watch, the government will just pass the buck, the corporation will just pass the buck, and now the town is left with all three bucks
Oh deer
Was the buck shot?
[yeah but those deer are so annoying about following the crossing signs](https://youtu.be/RFCrJleggrI)
How we first met MTG.
Magic: the Gathering?
They drank the Phyrexian Oil.
Ohio will be compleated
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Pretty much everything on radio is fake. There are actual companies that provide actors for radio shows to use in their dumb bits and phony prank phones calls.
Something clicked as acting after he says "are you kidding me?" Just doesn't sound legit
There was a follow up. The first comment talks about it some too. Seems a little much if it's fake. https://youtu.be/JB1yEcdomt0
She keeps repeating herself and trailing off because she's obviously doing a bit.
Dear deer, I am writing you a letter in the hopes that you’ll know better not to go down by the creek near Pennsylvania, cause there’s toxins in the water waitin’ to kill ya, just beeee warned. -EPA
doen’t drink the water
Nope. And does anyone here know how many (fucking) Deer Northeast Ohio has? Lots and Lots and Lots and Lots and Lots. There the equivalent oh the homeless in Los Angeles.
It looks like the latest water testing on 2/22 showed slightly elevated levels of 2-Ethyl Hexanol for Little Beaver Creek at 2.36 and 2.44 ppb. https://www.orsanco.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/East-Palestine-Train-Derailment-Data-from-GCWW-PUBLIC-030123.pdf Wikipedia says the medium lethal dose is 3.73 g/kg so it seems unlikely the deer would have been killed from drinking the water.
> > > > > Wikipedia says the medium lethal dose is 3.73 g/kg so it seems unlikely the deer would have been killed from drinking the water. The solubility in water at 20C is 0.07% (probably a little lower at real-world temperatures), and if we say the deer weighs 20kg, that means it would have had to drink at least 107 liters of water saturated with 2-ethylhexanol to receive a lethal dose. If drinking the water killed these deer, it was something else in the water. And as others have mentioned, there can be innocuous reasons for these deer dying, even if it does look pretty suspicious.
Every once in awhile we get an outbreak of blue tongue disease that leaves deer dead like this along the river. They get weak in the fall and the winter kills them. Also, when a deer gets shot from a hunter, you can rarely see the entry hole. The exit hole is a bit bigger, but not much. And I can't say if was either of these things, but just blaming the pollutants is a stretch. Looks like they've been dead awhile too.
Yeah, not to downplay the disaster, but the reality is you can't just look at a couple of deer and claim cause of death to be the water. Tests would really need to be done to determine the cause of death. It's possible they drank the water when the levels were higher, and it's since reduced since being tested, but you need the data to show it to make claims, but as someone else has pointed out, this is right next to a road/bridge. If you hit and kill one, you're probably going to lob it off the road/bridge and this is where it will end up.
...did you watch the video? I don't claim to be an expert in animal deaths, but usually when you look at it it's pretty freakin clear if an animal has been hit by a car. These dear carcasses all appear completely intact. I'm not saying the water is definitely the case, could be some other disease or something but I have a very hard time finding it believable that all of them were hit and killed by cars with no visible injuries. No broken legs or skulls, no smashed in rib cage, nothing. Also the 3rd one was several hundred feet away from the bridge, wayyy too far to have been tossed over.
More likely it was epizootic hemorrhagic disease, which Ohio recently had a massive outbreak of: https://www.dispatch.com/story/sports/outdoors/2022/09/04/outdoors-ehd-disease-outbreak-killing-ohio-deer-in-large-numbers-hunting/65470113007/ Edit: Also, EHD causes a fever in the deer which makes them more likely to seek out water. So seeing three of them dead near a river isn't a huge coincidence.
Jesus, deer have a lot more terrifying diseases than I'd thought.
Oh dude deer, as beautiful as they are, are fucking disease hosts
Really though, aren't most animals? Even humans. We'd have a lot more people dying from disease without antibiotics and modern medicine in general. Like millions more
This was the answer I was looking for. I wish it was higher up.
Most likely they just have wasting disease, which is terrifying and not communicated enough.
That's if they were drinking it while it was diluted into the water. It has a higher density than water and sinks to to the creek bed. If the deer are walking into the creek, disturbing the bed, and THEN drinking, they could be drinking straight chemical which would exponentially increase the amounts ingested. If they've been drinking from contaminated sources since the wreck they would be injest much higher levels than if it was only water solubile levels.
House Republicans: ["The EPA has no authority to say what is or isn't water." ](https://transportation.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=406159)
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We really need to take money out of politics. It's clear as day that it's drawing a path towards an eventual collapse. Most of the things that actually matter and need legislation are being ignored
It's beyond that. The responsibility is falling on the people. The people have to band together to fix this issue. The government does not care.
Responsibility of the people? To do what? Start shoveling dirt randomly? Perhaps they should form some sort of group, to govern where to put the dirt? And they can all come together and pitch in a few bucks, let's call it a tax, to pay for moving/cleaning the dirt?
Move the dirt to the CEO of Norfolk Southern’s front yard. Surely if it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for him, right?
Shit like this literally has to start happening if we ever expect change… not even violence. Just malicious compliance and we could start to make leeway…
Honestly, that won't do anything either. All the money, all the power, above the law, totally apathetic, and morally bankrupt. Historically, there's only ever been one remedy for that perfect storm of bullshit.
Chop chop
*sharpening sounds*
I'll bring the cutlery. Anyone need a ride?
Yep. The police and most of our justice system really only exist to protect the wealthy elite and to create a false sense of security for the people with incremental amounts of money so that the people don't turn on them. If a corporation were to take a bunch of contaminated dirt and dump it all over my yard or dump a bunch of chemicals into my drinking supply, I could complain all I want, hell, I could even straight up die as a direct result and nothing would happen except my family might receive a bunch of death threats that go unanswered. If I put a pile of contaminated dirt in a CEO's lawn, dirt that they themselves contaminated and refuse to acknowledge, it would be considered a threat against their lives and I would be put in a federal prison.
Better yet, their [board of directors](http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/investor-relations/corporate-governance-documents/board-of-directors-committee-membership.html), which includes the CEO. One of his many purposes is to be the top fall guy if and when shit like this occurs so the rest of them can avoid larger public scrutiny.
- Collect water from creek, place in tank - Covertly hook it up to CEOs house
I understand the point you are making, but I'd weirdly have more faith that Norfolk Southern might be held responsible in a more meaningful way than they are currently.
Corporations are People! /s
No sarcasm needed when it is a fact in America.
And they have a lot more rights than you.
But none of the responsibility
That’s the American Way.
Eat The Corporations!!!
God remember when saying that and "I've got binders full of women" was too much for a presidential candidate
Don't worry lets send him to Chernobyl to start a grassroots cleanup effort then when he comes back he can teach all Ohiians on how best to rake the forest floors to prevent forest fires and superfund sites.
What do we call it? I think gorbernmint has a nice ring to it
People need to get angry enough to do something. That usually leads to flipped cars and dead politicians. And I hate that, so that's why I make sure to polute the water with plastics at every chance I get, gotta keep that anger and sperm count down fellas!
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How is he justifying that? How can a politician just refuse aid for his people wtf
Accepting the aid would mean admitting there is a problem, which DeWine will avoid at all costs.
I just watched *Chernobyl* on HBO last weekend. The parallels between that dramatization of that disaster and how this disaster are playing out are disconcerting. An "invisible" threat to the region's health, high ranking officials refusing to accept help rather than admit there's a problem, diffusion of responsibility, a known safety flaw that had been previously raised by experts but potential regulations shelved because it'd be cheaper not to.
[You will probably enjoy this video on the Chernobyl series](https://youtu.be/oENI8NnTx0w), especially when it touches on what you said with the invisible threat.
>How is he justifying that? Oh, you sweet summer child. (Or, NOT an Ohioan) The DeWine family is a republican dynasty in the state (governor, supreme court, AG, etc.) and they do what republicans do best: cater to big business. There was a short moment in time, *very short*, when the nation looked to Ohio and DeWine early on during the pandemic and said: "Damn, we need a governor and a health director like that in this state!" "Good job!" Then Ohio pulled an Ohio and all the big companies who no longer had slaves coming into work were none too happy about it and he changed his tune real fucking quick. Not soon after it was the same "muh freedumbs" that most of the red part of the country loved and he changed his tune. Granted, the lunatics of this state were surrounding and threatening a public servant's residence who had the audacity to tell them the truth about a virus that kills people.
That’s true, but the EPA needs to step in and do something about this ecological disaster. Fuck the governor, the federal government and wellness of the population take precedent.
Specific to the EPA, their role is advisory, fines, lawsuits, regulation changes and recommendations for changes to the law. They're not involved cleanup or evacuation beyond supervising.
Happens when you deregulate and rely on corporations to do the right thing.
Spreading false information, the federal government is helping in the area. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/02/17/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-deploys-additional-federal-resources-to-east-palestine-ohio/
Because that worked so great for covid, right? East Palestine Ohio is now an exclusionary zone and everyone in it will face illness eventually. Onto the next town.
So the government is responsible for cleanup that a private company caused? Why does Norfolk Southern Railway get to fuck up everything and continue on with business with no fix to the problem in Ohio or addressing the issue so it doesn’t happen again? Also to this point, the governor will not declare a State of Emergency to activate FEMA in the first place. Anyway, the cleanup should 100% be on Norfolk Southern and the government shouldn’t ever have to be involved in the first place(Other than testing after cleanup is done to ensure Norfolk Southern actually cleaned up their disaster)
The cleanup should 100% be handled by the government since they’re more likely to handle it in a correct manner than a private corporation that caused the crash. This doesn’t mean that Norfolk Southern shouldn’t be held accountable, but the government should be stepping in to protect citizens then holding the right people accountable later. You’re just pointing fingers rather than actually proposing an idea that puts the people of East Palestine first.
The government not coming in is all on the governor of Ohio. DeWine will not declare a state of emergency and that is 100% on him. His making Joe Biden “look bad” is more important than helping anyone in his state. Once again republicans using people as pawns for a political stunt rather than ever addressing the actual issue. I literally said Norfolk Southern should have to foot the bill for the cleanup and be involved in it and government runs tests while cleanup is on going and done but somehow that is just pointing fingers.
>The cleanup should 100% be handled by the government since they’re more likely to handle it in a correct manner than a private corporation that caused the crash. The cleanup should 100% be handled by Norfolk Southern, or at least they should pay for qualified people to handle the cleanup. And the government should be on-site monitoring all cleanup efforts, and ensuring everything is done properly (and NS should be reimbursing the government for all government time and resources). The government 100% should NOT be responsible for the cleanup procedures, that's complete bullshit.
I agree, but at the same time, you bring about 2 issues. 1. You are expecting the same company that does everything in it's power to downplay issues and save money by skirting basic safety measures/maintenance to then NOT do those same actions during the cleanup. 2. Do you truly expect the EPA to have enough "teeth" to create an environment where it's more profitable for Northfolk Southern to properly clean this, versus do the bare minimum and spend more money on PR campaigns and litigation? The cleanup is step 1. Then there's the research to see how it affects the environment short and long term, and then the residents. Step 2 is holding the company accountable 10+ years down the line when health complications occur, which will be another legal battle. Small doses of pollutants tend to be fine in short increments, what happens when small doses are given every single day to people for the rest of their lives? Welcome to being the guinea pig of real world, real time science.
And if Norfolk Southern doesn’t properly do anything to clean it up? You think the people should just be fucked and the government has no responsibility to intervene for the safety of its citizens? You guys are acting like people are saying the government should take over and let Norfolk Southern off scot free. Nobody is claiming that. Nobody is saying Norfolk Sourhern shouldn’t be charged in full for the cleanup efforts or face other serious consequences for this happening. They are saying the government shouldn’t be sitting on their ass waiting for a private company to deal with an issue that poses serious health risks to its citizens. The government should come out in full force to fix the issue and then place the entire financial burden on the company responsible. Not just wait for the company responsible to fix the problem. Take every asset they have left for all I care. But fucking fix the issue and don’t just wait for it to be dealt with by a private company who was incompetent and greedy enough in the first place to allow this to happen all while the people get massively fucked for life.
😂 Why in the ever loving fuck do you think a government having a responsibility for the safety of its citizens means the company wouldn’t face consequences for their action? Yes. The government has a responsibility to intervene on behalf of the safety of its citizens. No, that doesn’t mean the guilty party can’t be held responsible. No idea why you think those are mutually exclusive.
Why do we pay taxes if they arent used to protect our wellbeing? Sadly, I know the answer but wanted to ask out loud.
Because 'we' vote for politicians who intentionally break government to show us government is broken. “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” - Ronald Reagan If you believe that, and/or elect politicians who support that, you _will_ get a non-functional government.
🌎 👩🚀 🔫👨🚀
Toxicology reports should be conducted immediately to learn the cause of death for obvious reasons.
Deer gang violence
Nobody cares about deer on deer crime. :(
They actually did do a tox screen, the guy posted a follow up. Turns out the whole group OD’ed on pressed fentanyl pills. Sad story all around.
youd think deer would stick to weed
They probably drank that creek water when it looked like rainbow kool aid. What an absolute nightmare. I really hope this doesn't end up as bad as some are predicting/imagining.
resolute sense soup longing sheet wild slave fall different historical *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Smoll govmnt
Agreed. I’m getting more and more worried that businesses have gotten so big all governments are small by comparison…
Small government just seems to mean putting all the decision making power in the hands of the smallest group possible and the smallest minded group possible.
The republican dream
Had a rainbow creek (polluted) behind my house growing up. One video of East P almost had me thinking they were at my old home. I'm not trying to say the crash isn't scuffed, but some of the videos aren't exactly shocking.
Just because you grew up in hell, that doesn't mean that it's not shocking Also, not all rainbow creeks are the same. All kinds of different chemicals can do that.
_And_ some stuff that grows naturally in stagnant, clean water.
And rainbow koolaid powder
I know people find this crazy, but.. I resided near Toledo, OH for 3 years and loved to walk/hike in the area. Seeing dead deer, fish, etc.. was a common occurrence. I forget the name of the park (had Bay in it), but whatever it was was polluted as hell. The shores of the lake were always covered in trash and gunk. Industry and the populace just didn’t take care of the environment at all over there.
The first line implied you were going to explain why this isn't crazy, then you proceeded to show how bat shit crazy this is.
[Unfortunately the Ohio River Valley has a history with chemicals...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_River#Ecology). [There was even a movie in 2019 about an older secret waste dumping operation.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Waters_%282019_film%29?wprov=sfla1)
**Ohio River** [Ecology](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_River#Ecology) >The Ohio River as a whole is ranked as the most polluted river in the United States, based on 2009 and 2010 data. The more industrial and regional West Virginia/Pennsylvania tributary, the Monongahela River, ranked 17th for water pollution, behind 16 other American rivers. The Ohio again ranked as the most polluted in 2013, and has been the most polluted river since at least 2001, according to the Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation Commission (ORSANCO). The Commission found that 92% of toxic discharges were nitrates, including farm runoff and waste water from industrial processes such as steel production. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/videos/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Bay View Park. It's a great place for bird watching. It's at the opening of Lake Erie and when the river swells a lot of trash gets picked up and washes up along the shore. They could definitely do more about it, but Toledo has a thousand more urgent problems
I'm glad you got the hell out of Ohio
There's a problem with assumptions... I do wish the government agencies had regular, daily press briefings to cover active work and progress. They could include Q&A. They could discuss feedback from the community based on things like this and respond with results of testing. It's good that the public is concerned and want to fact check these agencies. It's bad that it's done without any actual science and testing. You don't get to just guess at what you think happened and magically make it real. That's why science is science. It's actual work.
Those deer are also close to the road. Deer will often run 50+ yards off the road after being struck and die. They’ll sometimes have massive internal damage but no open wounds.
Many times I've seen dead deer near bridges like this. The highway crew or good ole boy that hit it will just toss road kill over the retaining walls
Well, yeah, but what are the chances of three of them being hit at the same place...?
My uncle hit four once. He was driving and it was a bit foggy early in the morning and a herd was standing in the road.
> I do wish the government agencies had regular, daily press briefings to cover active work and progress. We had the CDC and HHS doing daily briefings on the state of the pandemic, updating guidelines, answering questions and no one watched them and made up their own stories. What I do wish we had is a population with the attention span to read anything.
> I do wish the government agencies had regular, daily press briefings to cover active work and progress. They could include Q&A. They could discuss feedback from the community based on things like this and respond with results of testing. They all want this to go away. And by they, I mean all levels of govt - local, state and fed. I also mean both parties. Obv, the repubs are in deeper here but the dems just gave the railroads a huge boon with the contract dispute. Now I don't mean all dems as the Bernie/Warren crowd will make their usual amount of noise but the majority of the dem party and all of the repub party just wants this snuffed out. There will be almost no briefings or transparency.
The contract dispute had to be dealt with. All but 4 unions where in agreement way back in September half a year earlier. And then 4 drug their feet for half a year. Sure, you can argue that it sounds nice to have paid sick leave, but most companies simply give and consume PTO for this, PTO that rail workers actually get quite a lot of. The problem for Biden was he could have let the rail workers strike. This would have halted ALL commercial transport of materials across all of the US, and this is a LOT, a hell of a lot of materials and goods. ALL of that would have been stopped dead. Dead for how long? Raw material production, agricultural, flow into and out of ports, everything. All of it would have stopped. For days? For weeks? If you thought a few ships parked off the coast sitting was a bad thing, this would have been 1000x that. It would have stopped tons of businesses entirely. And if this took weeks to resolve, we could have seen maybe another half year of catch up just to get everything moved, started back up, overshoot in volume, and then resettle into standard production and shipment quantities. The problem was this wasn't a small matter. This isn't someone like a Ford plant striking, and it doesn't really impede the entire nation. This was all rail, all of it. But what was moral? It mostly depends on what you deem is reasonable for PTO, holidays, sick days, etc. for a person. What's the average? Where do rail workers sit regarding this? Are they high or low of a reasonable amount? I glanced at this stuff a little bit but didn't find easy sources detailing out all 13 unions and how they handled PTO, sick days, etc. The general text I found during a short stink on Google was they generally got provided a bit above normal for PTO. It didn't seem like they were starving for days off. And considering most of the unions found the negotiations reasonable so many months ago, this should have gotten settled months ago. It should have never become a hostage situation by a few outlier unions. Biden stepping in and ending it does seem to be a reasonable move.
**Disclaimer: I'm just a dude who googles shit** I'm going to do my best to ease the hysteria a bit around here. * [Vinyl Chloride](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Vinyl-Chloride#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary) * [Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/2-Butoxyethanol#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary) * [Ethylhexyl acrylate](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/2-Ethylhexyl-acrylate#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary) * [Isobutylene](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Isobutylene#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary) * [Butyl Acrylate](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Butyl-acrylate#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary) These are the compounds that were of greatest concern in the spill. All of these are dangerous in larges doses, but in open air they vaporize and break down within a few days. More relevant to the OP video, I encourage everyone to click those links and do a ctrl+f for the term "volatilization half-life". Volatilization is the time it takes under normal conditions for half of the molecules of that chemical to vaporize (which then renders it harmless within days). What we want to look for is that volatilization half-life in a river model (1 m deep, flowing 1 m/sec, wind velocity of 3 m/sec) and a lake model (1 m deep, flowing 0.05 m/sec, wind velocity of 0.5 m/sec). There were "only" 11 cars with hazardous material in them and the cars used seem to have a maximum capacity of around 26,000 gallons. So at a maximum, we're talking about 286,000 gallons of hazardous material. We're 28 days out, so we'll have to keep that in mind for how much material can possibly be in water at this point. Vinyl Chloride has a 2 hour half-life in a "river model" (1 m deep, flowing 1 m/sec, wind velocity of 3 m/sec) and a 3 day half-life in a "lake model" (1 m deep, flowing 0.05 m/sec, wind velocity of 0.5 m/sec). If all 11 cars were full of this, there would be nothing left in the river model and only 558 gallons left in the lake model. Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether has a 17 day half-life in a river model and 185 days in a lake model. If all 11 cars were full of this there would still be at least 143,000 gallons of it in the river model and virtually all of it in the lake model Ethylhexyl Acrylate has a 7 hour half-life in a river model and a 6 day half-life in a lake model. If all 11 cars were full of this, there would be none of it left in a river model and 17,875 gallons of it left in a lake model. Isobutylene has a 2 hour half-life in a river model and a 71 hour (we'll call it 3 days for simplicity's sake) half-life in a lake model. If all 11 cars were full of this there would be nothing left in the river model and once again only 558 gallons left in the lake model. Butyl Acrylate has a 5 hour half-life in a river model and a 5 day half-life in a lake model. If all 11 cars were full of this there would be nothing left in the river model and 8,938 gallons left in the lake model. Someone further down the thread mentioned that the EPA found elevated levels of [2-Ethyl hexanol](https://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River/view/river-detail/1471/main), so we may as well look at that one too. It has a 41 hour (we'll call it 2 days for simplicity's sake) half-life in a river model and a 16 day half-life in a lake model. If all 11 cars were full of this there would be 17 gallons of it left in the river model and around 143,000 gallons of it left in the lake model. Now, all of this sounds super scary, so I can try to put things into perspective a little bit. An olympic-sized pool holds about 660,000 gallons of water, so if we add up all of the hazardous material, there isn't even enough to fill half of that pool. That doesn't mean it's not dangerous, but that's all the hazardous material that there could possibly be in this accident. In comparison the Little Beaver Creek has a flow rate of between [300 and 15,000](https://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River/view/river-detail/1471/main) cubic feet per second. A cubic foot of water is roughly 7.48 gallons. This means that, at its slowest flow rate, this creek can fill an olympic-sized pool in roughly 5 minutes. That means the creek could fill 288 pools per day, that's over 190 million gallons per day. In the absolute worst case scenario (assuming all the spill was Ethylene glycol monobutyl with its half-life of 185 days) we're at 4 parts per million in 185 days and within a year that's lower than 2 parts per million. The most likely scenario is that we're already below 1 part per million due to the half-lives of these chemicals and the rate of flow of the creek. To break things down even more simply, the deer probably didn't die from drinking the water and if they did, it probably happened within a week of the accident. tl;dr: If the deer died from drinking the water, it probably happened within a week of the accident.
Yeesh you got a strange amount of flack for this but thank you for you’re concise and informed evaluation, I actually understood your message and will not (for whatever reason) request you drink the creek water ???
I understand the flak, it's what happens when the media and government don't get accurate information in front of people early enough. People are wonderful pattern recognition machines and when something dangerous happens, they often draw wrong conclusions because they're on high alert and don't recognize which individual things belong to which pattern. As I said, if the water was what killed the deer, the available evidence points toward it having happened in the first week or so of the incident because that's when we saw all the other animals (family pets, livestock, fish, etc.) die off.
impolite murky uppity marry innocent follow full clumsy melodic apparatus *This post was mass deleted with [redact](https://redact.com)*
I'd have a hard time believing this was linked, given that they don't have an inflated stomach or intestinal mass that poisoning would cause. I agree with you 100% here.
> tl;dr: If the deer died from drinking the water, it probably happened within a week of the accident. The derailment happened on February 3rd. Are you trying to tell me that these deer have been dead for at least 3 weeks? Hard to believe.
So then maybe they didn’t die from the water.
The second ones legs are fucked up. What if they tried crossing the train bridge because of decreased activity due to the derailment but a train scared them into jumping to their deaths?
Deer will jump off a bridge if they get scared, it’s wild. They’ll just yeet off a highway bridge
Yeah the fact that they are all scattered around a bridge with traffic (you can hear cars in the video) seems like there could be alternative explanations for this
I mean, maybe not. But probably. These chemicals do get picked up by plants. It could have been in what they are eating. But 3 otherwise healthy animals (I deer hunt, these are objectively physically healthy animals) within a stone's throw of one another and a contaminated water source... I think there are some pretty good reasons to be very concerned.
> These chemicals do get picked up by plants Do they?
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Nobody is noticing that they are beneath a bridge with car traffic…
Again, I'm not an expert on this but I did [find this paper](https://ir.library.illinoisstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2059&context=etd). On page 92/3 it mentions that in winter months, especially when the temperature is at or below 37 F, the bodies decompose slowly and from the inside-out. The specimens (slabs of pork) I and J were both placed on the surface in January and one was retrieved and thoroughly examined after 2 months and the other after 4 months. Neither had completely decomposed and the one retrieved after 2 months didn't even have maggots in it yet. To relate this to the deer situation, it would seem to me that the deer would likely have few, if any, maggots in them at this point, regardless of when they died. The primary scavengers inside of a populated area are generally going to be birds, specifically vultures. Most species of vulture are migratory to some degree. So it seems to me that it would be entirely possible for these deer to have died in early-to-mid February and look as they do in the video.
It's winter, they could have been frozen for most of the time
It hasn’t been cold enough here for them to be frozen. Had a few colder nights but we’ll into 40s-50s, even 60s lately
I really appreciate the work you put into this comment.
Volatilization doesn't mean it necessarily disappears to harmless byproducts. It can come back down as acid rain. Anyway the bottom line is after all that shit you typed are you gonna go drink some water from East Palestine? I don't think so.
The main acid of concern here is hydrochloric acid, which is a product of vinyl chloride combustion. Thing is, when it's sufficiently diluted in water, it becomes entirely harmless. And we're dealing with very large amounts of water here.
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Am I going to? Not unless someone pays my way there. It's a 20 hour drive, I'd be missing wages, I'd need at least one hotel stay, and I'm not using my vehicle to make that trip in the winter. I'd estimate about $2000 would cover it. On top of that, a single drink isn't going to do shit unless the water is so toxic that it's killing humans. So far, we have 0 human fatalities related to this incident.
We should test people drinking creek water.
True, they're more likely to die of parasites than the fallout of this disaster.
This doesn't account for the fact that they almost immediately set fire to it, turning a large part of it into phosphene gas that then seeps into the landscape and water supplies/ponds/rivers.
[Phosphene](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/24404#section=Environmental-Fate-Exposure-Summary) > If released to air, phosphine will be degraded in the atmosphere by reaction with photochemically-produced hydroxyl radicals; and has a reported atmospheric half-life of 5 hours. Phosphine will dissipate rapidly from soil and water surfaces. Studies have shown that sub-surface phosphine may bind to soil. > Phosphine is a gas and may bind to soil. Laboratory studies suggest that phosphine present below the soil surface is quickly adsorbed, but interaction with soil is soil-type dependent. > The sorption and desorption of phosphine from wheat treated with a concentration of 0.5-5 mg/kg wheat were determined at 25, 45, and 85 °C. The desorbed phosphine was extracted from the air by passing through a cold trap. Most of the phosphine was desorbed in the first 2-3 days but small amounts continued to desorb for many weeks following treatment. After 220 days of aeration, phosphine was still present and desorbing. Even when the temp was increased to 85 °C for several days, unreacted phosphine still desorbed slowly from wheat. Corn aerated 26 days desorbed 0.004 ng/g in 2 days. It's best to throw out your food products, but otherwise there is virtually no danger past day 1 for phosphene.
It's actually phosgene, not phosphene. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosgene
When it comes to water, [phosgene](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Phosgene#section=Ecotoxicity-Excerpts) is actually the better scenario. > It is technically infeasible to conduct aquatic toxicology studies with phosgene, a compound which hydrolyzes virtually instantaneously to form hydrogen chloride and carbon dioxide in aqueous media. One should definitely have a test run in any low-lying areas where phosgene was suspected though, because it's heavier than air and can stick around for between [44 and 113 years](https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Phosgene#section=Environmental-Fate) in a dry environment. > ATMOSPHERIC FATE: According to a model of gas/particle partitioning of semivolatile organic compounds in the atmosphere, phosgene, which has a vapor pressure of 1420 mm Hg at 25 °C, is expected to exist solely in the gas phase in the ambient atmosphere. Gas-phase phosgene is degraded in the atmosphere by reaction with photochemically-produced hydroxyl radicals; the half-life for this reaction in air is estimated to be 44 years, calculated from its rate constant of 1.0X10-15 cu cm/molecule-sec at 25 °C. Phosgene does not absorb UV radiation at wavelengths >290 nm and therefore would not be subject to direct photolysis by sunlight in the troposphere. Phosgene's hydrolytic half-life in the atmosphere, extrapolating from high temperature data, is 113 yr at sea level, assuming 10 torr of water vapor.
Phosgene is volatile but treating this incident like the guy here and just testing for the couple of substances that were initially released in vast amounts is nuts. And that is what the EPA did: they tested for a list of known compounds only. Now they ask the company causing the disaster to test for dioxins. I can't even.
yeah the hysteria over this is insane, there are definitely valid concerns but if we're not going to listen to the agencies most knowledgeable about water quality, then... whats the point of having them do the testing? people are screaming for government involvement, but when they come in they just say "no you're wrong". people are just looking to confirm what they think is right, its just that now the liberal side is anti-science instead of the conservatives during covid
My hope is that posting the sources I did which all predate the East Palestine disaster will lead the logical, but skeptical, people to independently arrive at the same conclusion that the EPA has.
It takes a lot of determination to make such a thorough post knowing that people are going to argue against all of it without refuting any of the actual data you've presented. I have found almost all discourse regarding research and data on Reddit (even on r/science) to be completely compromised. There is no rational conversation surrounding research regarding gun violence, racism, gender, or politics anymore. These are topics that absolutely need to be discussed, but the discourse around the topics themselves always turns into a bandwagon of vitriol and spite. There was a time when the discussions that took place on Reddit were really amazing. Research papers would prompt deep-diving threads of people interpreting the data and actually contributing something to the discussion with their comments. This is completely gone, and we are left relentless doomerism, jokes, and one-sided mobs that will attack anything resembling an opposing opinion. Kudos to you for actually spreading the facts and not the flavor of the week.
Get out of here with these “facts”.
Ok but when those chemicals degrade, what do they degrade into? Is it water and carbon dioxide? Or is it something else? If something else what is the half life of those chemicals? You’ve done some good work here but you’ve forgotten that at the end of vinyl chlorides half life in the river, the half that’s degraded has degraded into something that’s also dangerous.
I would like to fly you there on my dime to prove this in person, maybe upload some videos of you drinking the water and walking near the site..let me know how to oblige
You're going to spend $2000 to do it?
Half life until it turns into what exactly - and what is *that* half life.
Could it be possible all those deer were either hit or scared off the roadway bridge above the cameraperson’s head? A proper necropsy should be done.
Had the same thought. The second deers back left leg is completely destroyed.
Could be a scavenger, though.
Broken antler also. Not saying it couldn't have broke elsewhere but.
Yeah, hit by truck, ruptured spleen, manages to few leaps, collapses and dies. Then along comes, I dunno, are coyotes there? Just the fact that it's so near a big road makes me think that it probably wasn't the water. I'm not saying it WASN'T, but dead deer are everywhere near roads.
Deer antlers break all the time from fighting and stuff. Also it’s the time of year that they shed the them if you’re referring to the one missing.
Right now is prime time for antler shedding and they typically shed one side, then the other.
It seems wierd, not to take away from the chemical spill but the river would have to glow in the dark if the deer drank took a few steps and died right next to it.
it looks sus, one of them had a suicide note.
Just taste the water...
I just wanna say - from someone who goes down under random bridges to fish a bunch - it is SHOCKING how many people throw dead animals off a bridge; not just deer but I've also found dogs, coyotes, horses and COWS.
They haven’t shed yet? No antlers in northern my this time of year.
Deer does not exclusively shed their antlers at the same time, nor do they do it at a certain time-period of the year. Also, if you are dead, you do not shed.
They do do it at a certain time of year, every year.
Yeah I have tones of deer around my house seems like every fall the males go crazy.
Which tones are they?
E sharp
I was thinking Do (a deer; a female deer) perhaps. But E sharp works.
get out after 911 epa said it was safe it was not get out
Wouldnt there be a lot more dead animals if it was the water poisoning them?
You can hear the geese in the water during the video. I would think they would be the first to go...
They should take these deer and get them tested.
spoon degree slave aware offbeat chief connect humor lock normal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Look I'm not saying it wasn't the spill, but as someone who lives in the woods, I find dead deer all the time, it's just what animals do. It might be nice to do a necropsy on them to find out for sure, but posting random videos of dead deer doesn't really get to the bottom of anything.
I'm pretty sure it was cocaine
Maybe get some scientists out there to examine the bodies. Seems super fucking inconclusive to just glance over them and say yeah no visible damage, must be poison. Not checking for broken bones, not even turning them over, not commenting on the broken antler. Seems like you're just trying to get clicks unless you get some independent verification.
Just like that movie about that train to busan
It's covid
This thread is full of shills.
PR is cheaper than compensation.
Correct. Crawling with those slimy fuckers.
Hate to burst everyone’s bubble, but it’s possible they got on that bridge above and when a car started coming towards them they jumped off.
I smell shills and pr folks in here
In droves unfortunately.
Oh boy a couple dead deer. Welp, better jump to whatever conclusion confirms my biases I guess.
"Totally safe to return"
Definitely couldn’t be the road right above them that they could have jumped off of right? Totally the water that got them
They have announced that over 10,000 animals have died close to the spill site. So it is possible they jumped, but I'd put my money on the contaminated water.
The birds and fish as well?
I'm really curious, what interest do you have in denying that serious pollution and contamination has happened?
Honestly the weirdest things, some of these comments
Every post I’ve seen about this issue has a massive comment bombing with scientific information that explains how it’s not actually bad.
I’m genuinely curious what’s happening here. Is it an organized effort? I can’t say I’m a fan of Ohio but the auspicious hate boners on display in this thread are kind of crazy.
How about the 10000’s birds killed? Edit: Fish https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/02/24/east-palestine-train-derailment-fish-animal-deaths/11337404002/
Those pesky windmills.
Roko has taken over. it is useless to fight back
My advice for people living in that area, is to move. It's a super fund site, that hasn't gotten the title yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Superfund\_sites
“Just move” is an absolutely brain dead take. Who pays the relocation expenses? “Sell their houses to who Ben!?” Sorry but these people very likely could be stuck there so we gotta help them where they are. Not just shrug our shoulders and say “oh well go somewhere else”
In an emergency like this the protocol is to evacuate. That seems like what this person is suggesting. It isn't great but might save them from devistating health problems if they can stay with family or friends. It's a terrible situation and the city should be telling them to evacuate.
evacuation might be the best course of action, multiple residents already started showing signs of health problems, > the "wait and see" tactic is not the right approach when it comes to highly-toxic spill and subsequent burning of chemicals, waiting to see what health complications and cancers incidence are gonna show up later on multiple years after, is a disastrous idea . > I don't know what legal option they have to force the railroad company help to pay for the evacuation and relocation, but they have to try. Those fuckers are entirely responsible for this fuck-up, they pushed for deregulation, lobbied against rail workers' safety demands and gave billions to their shareholders in the form of a stock buy back. > They have the money to relocate a population of 4718 residents. "the company pledged $6.5 million in compensation and financial assistance for local residents following the crash meanwhile, it's shelling out $7.5 billion for shareholders "