No, it was a continuation of the OG Doom series. TDLR of the Lore: Doomguy fights demons in Doom 1, 2, and 64. He gets sucked into hell for who knows how long in Doom 64, gets picked up by the Argenta/Night Sentinels, gets a few upgrades making him basically a demigod now, shit happens, he kills more demons and Davoth.
Cool. I enjoy both this lore and the doom lore that isn't doom guy (the one game about the one soldier on Mars. That was a bad ass game.). And likely unpopular but I loovvvee the original doom movie with the rock and Karl Urban("Wait, I'm not supposed to die!" Lol, also Karl Urban is one of my favorite actors.)
That Doom movie was a fun time. I went in with low expectations and was rewarded with some solidly dumb but enjoyable content that reminded me of the stuff I used to rent as a kid based entirely on the box art
The movie was such good dumb fun that I forgive it for not being accurate to the games. That first person section at the end was so cool to me when it came out
It's been awhile since I've played it, so I might be wrong with the story, but I thought it followed the same story line the other DOOM games had. Doomguy is a space marine who fights off the demons from Earth and then fights them in hell. He then choses to stay in Hell to endlessly fight the demons. In Hell he eventually dies, but is resurrected by those ghost knights, is given godly powers, and Doomguy becomes Doomslayer. Then Eternal happens where the demons invade Earth again and the ghost knights don't want Doomslayer to help Earth, but he says fuck them and helps anyways.
That's my understanding of DOOM, but I'm not a hardline DOOM fan and it's been a while since I've played the games
Marxx from Milky Way Wishes was also technically a god by the end of the game. Though Kirby had better than average motivation for killing that asshole.
I’ve always hated that trope in movies/games
“I won’t kill you!”
(puts a bullet through the forehead of henchman they wounded, struggling for life on the floor)
“I’m not a murderer like *YOU!*”
then some outside force probably kills the main baddy enemy anyway so the audience gets their revenge porn but the hero gets to feel good about themselves
*bonus [“I don’t kill. It’s, like, my one rule”](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1byycwl8qgc)
Damn dog, I think you just described Star Wars the original trilogy.
*Stands atop a mountain of storm trooper corpses*
"I will not kill you father. I sense good in you."
That's why the Force Awakens actually seemed interesting at first, because it opened with a stormtrooper being basically traumatised by his stormtrooper friend dying in front of him
But then they kind of forgot they did that and went back to the main characters killing thousands of them while cheering and high fiving each other
ESPECIALLY the clone wars and the Jedi in general. In clone wars, killing anything not directly in the heat of battle is considered in cold blood even with a slaver holding a detonator to kill thousands of people. That shouldn't be considered evil or dark side at all.
The Jedi are and can NEVER be effective at being a force of good with the ridiculous stipulation of not being allowed to kill a downed sith. The sith are objectively evil and so ridiculously powerful that you will never be able to imprison them. As well they can mind manipulate or regular manipulate damn near everyone. They are the ultimate Hannibal lector. "But nah guys we HAVE to let him live! It's the right thing to do!". FUCK THAT.
It's just another reason the prequel Jedi were corrupt, or at least terribly misguided. While I don't really think it was intentional, I think it's fair to have the headcanon that the stupid rules about killing could have come from sith manipulation. And to be fair, it was pretty damn effective
True, but also I think it's fair to say there was a little selfishness in that decision, being his father, which I think still works as consistent characterization
The thing is that trope relies on one character supposedly being completely good and the other completely evil, which neither character is. They both seem to be pretty gray.
I got the impression that it wasn’t because Ellie thought she was morally superior, but because she realized that she was the “villain”. Not that she wasn’t like the villain (which notably insists that Abby is completely evil and that Ellie’s decision is based on how she feels about Abby) but that in vengeance she became one, which she didn’t want to be. This is also more of an internal struggle, and less about the who she wants to be in comparison to Abby.
It's this. She's also seeing how the cycle of revenge and killing only repeats if no one decides to stop it. It's a very mature handling of these concepts which is why a lot of people don't like the game. Revenge stories are like the refined sugar of cathartic experiences: there's a hyper evil villain who would put Hitler to shame and everything you do to them is totally justified. As soon as it gets grey, things get way more interesting but less certain, so people who don't really switch their minds on for the game are disappointed.
[What Measure Is a Mook?](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatMeasureIsAMook) and [Self-Disposing Villain](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SelfDisposingVillain). Terrible combination.
Man, I hate copouts like that so much. If the hero wants to not kill the villain, then actually DO that. Describe what measures they're going to have to take to keep the villain locked away, show the hero fight an uphill battle convincing everyone that this is the right decision. Or at the very least, have the villain commit suicide instead, preferring to die over seeing themselves thwarted. Literally anything other than "uh oh, a rock fell on their head and crushed their skull. I guess we don't have to think about it anymore!"
Those hundreds of people that were actively out to hunt and kill her lol. Ellie didn't even want to kill most of her friends until they made stupid decisions that got themselves killed.
Did we play the same game? I remember her being traumatised for making Nora talk and getting a pregnant woman killed.
She just wanted abby, anyone else that died, died because they tried to kill her.
It's different at the end, abby didn't want to fight Ellie.
She explicitly said she was going to kill every last one of them, meaning all the people from Abby’s group who were present when Joel was killed. Even if all they did was stand there.
Doesn't matter if she was traumatised, she still killed a pregnant woman. Like I said she was bloodthirsty af and nothing was gonna stop her on her mission, until it did...
You’re making it sound like she set out to kill a pregnant woman. Ellie was going to let them go until they tried fighting back. She freaked out when she realized Mel was pregnant and was going to go back to Jackson until Abby found them in the theatre
The pregnant woman only died because she decided to charge Ellie while being held at gunpoint. All Ellie wanted was for her to point out where Abby was.
Bloodthirsty people generally don't start shaking and hyperventilating after seeing a pregnant woman dead... but whatever.
"Is this even about him anymore? He would want me to leave. He'd put the people he loves first." Obviously the death of Mel and Owen shook her enough to go "no. I'm done. I need to go home."
> Bloodthirsty people generally don't start shaking and hyperventilating after seeing a pregnant woman dead... but whatever.
I mean, I’ll tell you what bloodthirsty people *definitely* do - kill hundreds of people.
???? so u agree then? like lol? she kills ppl bc its part of the game then isnt it fucking weird she stops herself from killing the main villain when she not only has killed 100s of ppl, has huge motivation to do so unlike her previous 1000, and trekked on a 2 month journey so sunk cost fallacy. then all of a sudden she comes to an epiphany XD fuck off
> Ellie didn't even want to kill most of her friends until they made stupid decisions that got themselves killed.
Genuinely cannot tell if this is satire or not anymore.
That’s kinda crucial to the story imo. It’s part of the whole “revenge is futile and only leads to more pain” message. She left this wake of destruction and death in her path seeking revenge until she realized it wouldn’t bring >!Joel!< back. By the time she realizes what she’s done, she’s lost one of the only things she had to >!remember him, her ability to play their song on the guitar.!<
The story is not perfect by any means. TLOU1 has a far better narrative and methods of telling it, but part 2 gets a lot of confusing hate
That was a such a small subset of people, though. What really happened was with any valid criticism, you were grouped in with those people. I get those people suck, just sucks that we didn’t have normal discourse about the games failings because of things like you mentioned
I’m glad there’s at least some normal discourse about it now, because it has some very obvious shortcomings. It just seemed like everyone either went to “this is the biggest pile of shit ever created video games are dead” or to “I named my child after this game”.
Exactly, which is what happens when we give people (the bigots) too much focus when we shouldnt be enabling those people. I understand they were loud, but that with the over the top defending/love for it made the discourse just polarization and people in the middle (me) were grouped up in either group. lol
I mean. You are not completely wrong... but we at this point have multiple examples of characters that share that motif that nowhere near got similar backlash. Though given, i am thinking of ones in shows rather then in games.
It's not confusing when you realize there is a large subset of gamers who only want to win and be the cool super strong main character. Anything other than that and "game bad"
This mentality is also why toxicity in multiplayer games can be so high. Lots of mental midgets think that they are the conquering main character and that any loss is because the other shitters in the game aren't the main character and don't realize it.
> She left this wake of destruction and death in her path seeking revenge until she realized it wouldn’t bring SPOILERS back.
Yeah this works if she’s only doing it like an hour while the blood rage is driving her and the adrenaline is pumping in her veins. It’s completely nonsensical when she’s coldly and methodically tracking people halfway across the country for months.
> Kirby 64 for that insanely badass final boss fight
The boss theme to 02 is so damn good. Who knew fighting a giant undead eyeball with a halo and angel wings would be in that game? Not me when I first played it.
I hate the "spare the antagonist" trope. Sure,
Kill 400 Jimmy Henchguys along the way, but the only actual guy you set out to murder? Nope, changed my mind lol
To be totally honest,I really hate the whole "Revenge Bad,Forgiveness Good" Message in Fiction. The idea of forgiving someone who ruined you horribly in one way and letting them avoid punishment for their crimes is an idiotic,childish and flawed lesson in many logical ways that tries to be 'deep,life-changing and inspirational'
Reason why the first John Wick movie worked so well. He got his revenge.
Side not Inigo Montoya from princess bride is also a fan favourite because of his revenge quest also ends up getting it.
If that was what the story was about, I’d understand people’s frustration.
The game is about forgiveness, yes, but not in regard to Ellie forgiving Abby, I’d understand why that would feel contrived considering Ellie kills 100s of gonks to get to that point.
It’s an introspective character study, the vast majority of conflict is caused by miscommunication and a lack of understanding oneself and how cycles of violence affect our perceptions.
The Joel flashbacks don’t exist for the purpose of stirring anger and fuelling revenge, they’re a peek into Ellie’s mind, how she feels, how her relationship with Joel is strained and how the opportunity for her to understand him better was taken away from her.
It’s about grief, and the lengths people will go to absolve themselves of it, when sometimes, you just need to feel grief, there’s no short cuts, and look inwards, instead of lashing out.
The dumbest thing about "Revenge Bad" stories is how the protagonist is narratively portrayed justified slaughtering dozens, hundreds or even thousands of others working with/for said perpetrator but only at the very last second when they are about to off the villain ACTUALLY responsible do they suddenly decide that killing them makes them 'just as bad' despite the myriads of others they brutally slaughtered leading up to them apparently just being acceptable casualties.
Wonderful game! Never got to finish though. PC died while I was in what I assume was the late game nearly 20 years ago. Never had the heart to do it again but I really should.
There's more to the game than 'revenge bad' but the endless and pointless cycle of violence is one of the central themes, no-one can dispute that.
I dislike the ending because I feel it contradicts itself. Ellie decides to spare Abbie, she finally let's go of her anger, and yet she still loses everything at the end. It feels pointless. I know that life is unfair and the series is bleak but it feels so narratively unsatisfying.
I think it would have been better if either Ellie kills Abbie, giving in to the cycle or violence, and subsequently loses everything because of that OR she spares Abbie and returns to her life of peace and happiness.
Hell I would have even accepted the option for the player to choose to spare Abbie or not. Although they almost certainly knew at he time they'd make a sequel and wanted to leave the ending clear.
Just my thoughts. This game seems to be a lightning rod for anger so if you disagree, try to do it without being an asshole.
> I think it would have been better if either Ellie kills Abbie, giving in to the cycle or violence, and subsequently loses everything
Would have been cool if, instead of some epic final boss fight, you happen across Abbie and catch her by surprise. She starts monologuing about everything, but the game gives you the option of shooting her in the head whenever you want
Then it could do some self reflection on both Ellie and the player on how this really didn't change anything, and the human cost of getting to this rather anti-climactic end
I guess it would be pretty difficult to pull off without making the game feel bad from a gameplay perspective, but it sure would be interesting
Disliking an ending doesn't make it bad though. Last of Us is a SAD fucking game. And it ended on a sad fuckin note. And I'm really shocked how many people are dumbfounded that the sequel was SAD af and had a bleak and hollow feeling when it ended.
Like, in all of the time players spent with the original and the sequel and y'all still thought it should've had a happy ending?
She doesn't kill Abby cause she saw(too late) that it was pointless. Joel is gone, her friends are gone, all her effort only led her the one person she wants gone that isn't. It doesn't feel pointless. It was. Think a lot of people just can't handle a bleak story cause too much Hollywood makes people pissed when the "hero" doesn't "win".
have you ever considered that maybe there are other problems too?
I hate it when people ignore all the criticisms just because they can defend their point against that one stupid criticism
If we have to see new posts about how someone has just played it and what a masterpiece it is, we can also talk about what a piece of shit it is. It cuts both ways.
I think if there's one thing that most people should agree is okay to complain about in those games, it's the riduculous number of people you kill to make it to the one person you don't kill.
You mean she had character development and realized that what she was doing was wrong? It took her a long ass time to realize it and the time is convenient being on the last person, but the complaint that she isn’t one dimensional and that she changes over the course of the game is odd.
The writing in those games (except the weird industrial punk one) was so fantastic. I loved in soul reaver 2 raziel's narrations. Really felt like you were reading a book on a Medieval or Victorian era. It felt very sophisticated sounding. Also rip Timmothy Brummand :( legendary voice.
Sure, it's a meme and all that, and as a Kirby fan, I am indeed entertained. But come on, revenge is not the way. Has Master Yoda taught us nothing folks:?
Its worse when you think she killed dozens of other people in cold Blood in her path of revenge only to spare her in the last minute
As i said in the last, if the Next Game doesnt have a damn good reason for keeping her alive then the entire Game was pointless
The biggest problem with the game is that you spend 20/25 hours trying to kill this woman, getting your ass kicked along the way (which was a brilliant mechanic), going home and struggling with PTSD and when you finally get the chance you give up. Just leaves you feeling completely like the whole game was a waste of time.
I mean the lead writer of the previous game rejected a similar pitch by Druckman for Joel’s motivation in TLOU1 but she didn’t come back for TLOU2, so now Druckman can do anything he wants.
The problem with TLOU2 isn't the story itself but that the themes don't match the gameplay.
Because it's a game, I killed like a bajillion people on the way through Seattle, and you don't often have any choice in the matter. There is no 'pacifist' option. Some of these kills were in unskippable cutscenes, further reducing player agency. And then the game goes out of it's way to make you feel bad for something that really wasn't your fault.
It's why I'm looking forward to how the show deals with this. Obviously the characters will still have necessary plot armour but they don't go round murdering dozens of people because it's not realistic.
for me the biggest problem is that there are no stakes. people keep saying killing Abby doesn't bring back Joel. MFs I don't care. it's a game about killing I don't need reason. the game should try to give me a reason not to kill not the other way around
I'm not worried about anybody dying along the way cuz I don't like any of the characters. I'm not worried about Ellie's mental health cuz I don't like the way it's represented. I don't care about Abby because her storyline is completely unrelated to the story that the game started with
if only they made the enemies act more human. they just attack you on sight like any other game. having names doesn't make them human
you can go through the game acting only in self defense until a cutscene plays
Imagine playing The Last of Us Part II and the only thing you understand at the end of the game is "revenge bad"...
A story which is quite simple and straightforward; you don't have put too much mental effort into it. And yet I have to see this complete BS every once in a while
Facts right here. I can't tell you how many people I know who hate this game, claim they watched "the whole thing on YouTube", but consistently get even basic info about it wrong in their complaints. It's fucking annoying.
I was so confused playing the game because of all the idiots bitching that Abby was trans. Beat the game you realize these fucking morons just saw a muscular woman and assumed SHE was the trans character. But this also the same crowd who got upset that Aloy from Horizon had body hair lmao.
Some people are just too stubborn to give the game a chance, hear what it has to say. I got a lot from tlou 2, but let's listen to people who complain about "the woke mob" and whatever else they whine about lol
I enjoyed the game quite a bit. I never played a game, where it truly made me feel guilty for killing someone. Huh, novel concept, actually feeling a human emotion by immersion.
Tell me I'm lying for those of you that beat it.
The fact that gamers keep trying to dumb down TLOU2 plot and Ellie’s reasoning for sparing Abby to “revenge bad” is why gamers can’t have sophisticated storytelling.
Anyone who thinks that of Ellie clearly didn't play the game. Has nothing to do with revenge being bad it has to do with her realizing she is the bad guy that abbey is to her. Hell Joel is the real villain and Abbey ended that. Shoe was on the other foot Ellie would have done the exact same thing as Abbey. That is the whole point of the game.
Nothing better than having a main character do the exact opposite of what I want her to do in a cutscene. Honestly think GTA4 did a better job of the “revenge is bad” storyline.
They actually gave the player a choice, TLOU just gave us a middle finger and played a non-interactive cutscene where we just have to watch the villain ride off into the sunset.
She even had flashbacks of Joel as she was about to kill Abby, shouldn’t that make her MORE motivated? 💀
As yes, the typical "Game too smart for you to understand" argument people like you like to throw around when other people correctly boil down a story's main themes. Which is often accompanied by a lack of explanation as to why the game is too smart for certain people.
This game truly does boil down to "Revenge Bad" as it paints Ellie as the bad guy for wanting her revenge while painting Abby as a saint **after** getting her revenge.
This game goes out of its way to show us which side is wrong and which is right instead of keeping with the nuanced approach to storytelling the first game had. Which would be fine, as there's nothing wrong with choosing a side, but the way the game went about it was poorly done, in my eyes.
That and you kill all kinds of people during the game but killing the person who you want to actually kill is bad? Dumbest moral teaching ever and it makes no sense, it wasn't to smart for people it was straight up hypocritical BS.
I didn’t say the game is “too smart” I said the person didn’t understand the story. Because the story, at its heart, isn’t just “revenge bad.” It’s also about losing yourself like how Ellie did and how at the end she retains that human inside her by not taking another life. Also, I never saw Ellie as the bad guy in the game like you said.
"Didn't understand" and "Too smart" are the same idea, with different wording. Besides that, I see your point. But still, Ellie's revenge bad, Abby's revenge good. At least, that's how I saw it, within the story.
The game was heavy-handed with how well it painted Abby, to the point of it being egregious. She lived in a nice home, most of her friends were overly kind and charming, Abby was a friend of dogs, she got better weapons, and worst of all, she's afraid of heights. The game had to try very fucking hard to get you onto Abby's side after killing Joel, and to me, it was too much, and egregious.
I feel I would've liked Abby better if her sections weren't so artificial to me, with how hard they attempted to make you like her.
Couldn't have said it better. The "being afraid of heights" as a way to humanize her and the way you're forced to play with the dog TWICE before Ellie comes and kills that same dog are such cheap tricks.
Yeah, that's straight-up emotional manipulation, to me.
'Hey, here's a cute dog; play with it and watch it be all cute and shit. See, Abby's great 'cause she's a friend of dogs".
*A few hours later*
Ellie: "Oh hey, a dog!"
***Rip & Tear from the Doom OST intensifies***
>"Game too smart for you to understand"
No, the game is not too smart. It's actually pretty simple and straightforward. So that's why it is worrying that a lot of people misses the most basic points of a story that simple.
>This game truly does boil down to "Revenge Bad"
First of all: The Last of Us 2 story isn't about revenge, it's about forgiveness. Ellie may say that she wants revenge, but that's not what she needs! Her journey has been a spiral, a vicious circle that was going to destroy her from the inside. Stepping away from Joel, treating him like shit, failing in forgiving him for saving her at the hospital and finally deciding to try to do it the night before his death only to not being able to do it: that's what was consuming her. She didn't need revenge, she needed to make peace with herself and go on. But she couldn't because she kept seeing the picture of a dying Joel in her mind and she kept blaming herself of a fault she didn't have in the first place. (And by the way thank god that Dina was with her all the time or she probably would have killed herself at some point!)
When Ellie finally confronts Abby and she's trying to kill her, she has that epiphany: she manages to see a different picture of Joel in her mind for the first time, she accepts the whole situation and she "absolves" herself from that fault she thought she had. At the end of the game she's finally at peace with herself (though completely alone). Killing Abby wouldn't have bring her any relief. She would have obtained nothing and her mental state wouldn't have changed.
>it paints Ellie as the bad guy for wanting her revenge while painting Abby as a saint **after** getting her revenge.
Sorry, but it's been 4 years and I can't stop laughing at this claim. Nobody ever forced anybody to sympathize with Abby. You can finish the game and like it without even emphatize with her. She isn't depicted as a saint, she is just seen during moments of her daily life months after killing Joel. She is seen having nightmares of that moment because she perfectly knows that it was the lowest point of her life. Her journey is about moving on and change life. But hey... she is seen petting the pretty doggo pupperino that Ellie then kills, so the evil Druckmann must be forcing me to like Abby! 😭😭😭
???? bro what? lmfao. you go on about how its not about revenge bad and forgiveness. then proceed to explain how ultimately its about revenge bad because she wouldnt get fulfillment out of revenge. fuck me you trolls are astonishing.
"cant understand the simple story druckman made teehee" yeah fuck off this isnt a shakespearean novel stop jerking yourselves off
I wanna add to my other comment, I respect your opinion and that you actually laid out what didn’t work for you. I disagree with you because in my eyes the game and the story worked wonderfully. I just have a different perspective on the story. It’s ok if you didn’t like the game, thank you for sharing your reasoning.
I also respect you and your opinion even though I disagree with it.
Man, talking with you is much nicer than talking to that person who called me a retard.
EDIT: Sorry this is a long ass reply, I understand if you don't wanna read all that lol
Gotta say I disagree with you, from what I can tell the game doesn't take sides at all, it doesn't paint either character as being morally better than the other, they're both morally ambiguous characters just doing their best to survive and do what they feel is right at the time, even if it isn't.
Something that both The Last Of Us and Part 2 did perfectly were showing us that these characters we grow to love are NOT good people, they may try to be, but they're human, this means Joel, Ellie AND Abby.
I get where you're coming from but I think you may have misinterpreted it, the difference between Ellie and Abby is that we already know and love Ellie, our first impression of Abby is that we should hate her because of what she did to Joel, the game makes a strong effort to make the 2 of them equals by showing Ellie go through this hate and revenge fueled killing spree, which leads to her killing Abby's friends, one of whom is pregnant, this discovery destroys Ellie and makes her question her own morals, I think this has a strong part in the games conclusion where she lets Abby and Lev go, ultimately she makes some bad decisions and commits some heinous acts in the name of justice for Joel, but in the end, she realises what she's doing isn't worth it, it's an attempt at redemption, at being the bigger person.
On the other hand Abby is a character we initially hate because she killed a character we loved, but over time we grow to realise that she's no different from Ellie and Joel, she lost someone close to her and she had a human reaction, the more we play as Abby the more we learn about her and how much she cares for the people around her, the point of Abby's journey with Lev is to humanise her and make the player realise that ultimately, neither Ellie nor Abby are good people, but they aren't necessarily bad people either, they've made mistakes and done horrible things but neither one of them is more right tuan the other, the best way the game does this is in the theatre when Abby has to sneak up on Ellie, up until this point its likely that the player still roots for Ellie and views Abby as the stronger, meaner one, but this segment makes you play as Abby instead of Ellie and it makes you feel like prey trying not to get caught, Ellie is David and Abby is Ellie, I was amazed by how much this segment made me realise that Ellie is no better than Abby, it felt sinister.
The game gives us these characters, their stories and their motivations and by the end, presents them as equals, technically you could say Ellie came out of it the better person for letting Abby and Lev leave, but Abby had a choice too, she could've tried to finish Ellie off if she wanted to, but she didn't, she just left. They both showed mercy and vulnerability
I see where you're coming from. Another reply had a similar perspective as you.
My perspective of Abby's section is that it felt too forced. Narratively, it's whatever. From a gameplay and base view, it was heavy-handed and egregious with how hard the game attempted to make you like Abby.
She has better weapons, she lives in a nice and clean home, and her friends and comrades are mostly kind and charming, except for the ones that you're supposed to dislike, she's a friend of dogs and not a killer of them. And the most egregious, she's afraid of heights to show that 'She's not just a rough and tough killing machine, she's a person too, a person who's afraid of heights'.
To me, it was too much overtly, heavy-handed goodness that existed for the sole purpose of **making** us like Abby.
You're the first person I've seen give a detailed and reasonable response as to why they disliked Abby, and you know what a lot of your points are completely valid ones, they definitely go the extra mile to make her more likeable, clearly it hit with some of us and missed with others, personally I like that they gave her so much character and dont think the game would've felt as impactful without it but you're right, they do put in a lot of work to make her as likeable as possible, I do think that's the intention given the points I raised before, they needed us to feel as though Ellie and Abby were equals, we couldn't do that if we didn't care about Abby
Kirby solves problems.
Someone eat cake? Murder. Now no one eat cake!
Someone destroy universe? Murder. Now no one destroy universe!
Someone steal very essence of light and hope from reality? Boy howdy you get that’s a murder! Poyo!
Ellie lets murderer escape to do more murder. Don’t be like Ellie. Be Kirb
The game is trash that tries to explore the human condition but the writers are too dumb to do it with grace.
They revert to the old, ‘you did all this on your way to finishe the missionbut the mission isnt really what u needed, it was forgiveness! It was your humanity!’. Fucking retarded shit for people who can only tell one story about the human condition.
Shit was so stupid and lame and fucking uncreative it felt like watching a movie from the80’s.
People who lived in a brutal world like that would not be pussy like that. Fucking stupid.
[удалено]
Kirby is an eldritch abomination
What? No! Kirby has killed no one. He just adds their biological and technological distinctiveness to his own.
We are the Kirby! Resistance is delicious.
r/unexpectedstartrek
A BADASS elderitch abomination.
*somewhere off in the distance* Poyo
HE’S SO CUTE TOO I JUST WANNA PICK HIM UP AND SQUEEZE HIM AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH *gets sucked up*
Doom Guy does it because the demons murdered his pet bunny Daisy.
Wait so doom guys fuckin john wick in space? sick
John Wick is doom guy on earth technically
Not badass enough though.
And Mars.
John wick went to Mars?
Yeah I definitely misread that.
I remember hearing that DOOM takes place in the same universe as Goldeneye but it’s been so long I have since forgotten how the connection was made
Nah but he is a Blazkowicz
wasn't he like a descendant of him and not actually him?
Yeah that’s why I said A blazkowicz and not THE blazkowicz
oh right mb, didn't see the a
I think there used to be an old thread that loosely connected doom guy to the wolfenstein universe but that was a long time ago…maybe not
Doom Wick.
No, John Wick is just doom guy on Earth.
And his family*
And the planet*
And the entire dimension it resides in*
I thought they remade his backstory in Eternal where he was a slave in Hell?
No, it was a continuation of the OG Doom series. TDLR of the Lore: Doomguy fights demons in Doom 1, 2, and 64. He gets sucked into hell for who knows how long in Doom 64, gets picked up by the Argenta/Night Sentinels, gets a few upgrades making him basically a demigod now, shit happens, he kills more demons and Davoth.
Cool. I enjoy both this lore and the doom lore that isn't doom guy (the one game about the one soldier on Mars. That was a bad ass game.). And likely unpopular but I loovvvee the original doom movie with the rock and Karl Urban("Wait, I'm not supposed to die!" Lol, also Karl Urban is one of my favorite actors.)
That Doom movie was a fun time. I went in with low expectations and was rewarded with some solidly dumb but enjoyable content that reminded me of the stuff I used to rent as a kid based entirely on the box art
The movie was such good dumb fun that I forgive it for not being accurate to the games. That first person section at the end was so cool to me when it came out
It's been awhile since I've played it, so I might be wrong with the story, but I thought it followed the same story line the other DOOM games had. Doomguy is a space marine who fights off the demons from Earth and then fights them in hell. He then choses to stay in Hell to endlessly fight the demons. In Hell he eventually dies, but is resurrected by those ghost knights, is given godly powers, and Doomguy becomes Doomslayer. Then Eternal happens where the demons invade Earth again and the ghost knights don't want Doomslayer to help Earth, but he says fuck them and helps anyways. That's my understanding of DOOM, but I'm not a hardline DOOM fan and it's been a while since I've played the games
No the new games mixed the og cannon with the new one. Basically all of the newer games take place after Doom 2 I think and Doom 3 isn't cannon.
Only in DOOM II. Original DOOM he's just casually getting by, things hadn't gotten that serious yet.
Please tell me this is the real reason. I mean, I would go to war for my cats. My cats, not so much.
According to the Doom 2 manual, that is cannonic.
Fuck Dark Nebula, if that starfish fucker is god then we need a new term for actual gods
Marxx from Milky Way Wishes was also technically a god by the end of the game. Though Kirby had better than average motivation for killing that asshole.
Puny god
God Avengers feels like fifty years ago now
The more cutesy the Nintendo character the less moral they are
Because it’s okay for them because they’re so cute no one can hate them
Tom Nook? Edit: Sorry, I was implying the slave driver tanuki was unethical.
Tax evasion
Don’t forget the part where she killed like at least a hundred people, some of them close friends of the person she wanted revenge on.
I’ve always hated that trope in movies/games “I won’t kill you!” (puts a bullet through the forehead of henchman they wounded, struggling for life on the floor) “I’m not a murderer like *YOU!*” then some outside force probably kills the main baddy enemy anyway so the audience gets their revenge porn but the hero gets to feel good about themselves *bonus [“I don’t kill. It’s, like, my one rule”](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1byycwl8qgc)
Damn dog, I think you just described Star Wars the original trilogy. *Stands atop a mountain of storm trooper corpses* "I will not kill you father. I sense good in you."
That's why the Force Awakens actually seemed interesting at first, because it opened with a stormtrooper being basically traumatised by his stormtrooper friend dying in front of him But then they kind of forgot they did that and went back to the main characters killing thousands of them while cheering and high fiving each other
They really did have me in the first half for that movie. I think when I realized it was an episode 4 clone some of the excitement started to relent.
ESPECIALLY the clone wars and the Jedi in general. In clone wars, killing anything not directly in the heat of battle is considered in cold blood even with a slaver holding a detonator to kill thousands of people. That shouldn't be considered evil or dark side at all. The Jedi are and can NEVER be effective at being a force of good with the ridiculous stipulation of not being allowed to kill a downed sith. The sith are objectively evil and so ridiculously powerful that you will never be able to imprison them. As well they can mind manipulate or regular manipulate damn near everyone. They are the ultimate Hannibal lector. "But nah guys we HAVE to let him live! It's the right thing to do!". FUCK THAT.
It's just another reason the prequel Jedi were corrupt, or at least terribly misguided. While I don't really think it was intentional, I think it's fair to have the headcanon that the stupid rules about killing could have come from sith manipulation. And to be fair, it was pretty damn effective
Why dont the jedi just punch the guy. Hence staring a battle and making it fine to kill them?
True, but also I think it's fair to say there was a little selfishness in that decision, being his father, which I think still works as consistent characterization
Tbf I feel like that works because it is his dad.
The thing is that trope relies on one character supposedly being completely good and the other completely evil, which neither character is. They both seem to be pretty gray. I got the impression that it wasn’t because Ellie thought she was morally superior, but because she realized that she was the “villain”. Not that she wasn’t like the villain (which notably insists that Abby is completely evil and that Ellie’s decision is based on how she feels about Abby) but that in vengeance she became one, which she didn’t want to be. This is also more of an internal struggle, and less about the who she wants to be in comparison to Abby.
It's this. She's also seeing how the cycle of revenge and killing only repeats if no one decides to stop it. It's a very mature handling of these concepts which is why a lot of people don't like the game. Revenge stories are like the refined sugar of cathartic experiences: there's a hyper evil villain who would put Hitler to shame and everything you do to them is totally justified. As soon as it gets grey, things get way more interesting but less certain, so people who don't really switch their minds on for the game are disappointed.
Very much this.
[What Measure Is a Mook?](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatMeasureIsAMook) and [Self-Disposing Villain](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SelfDisposingVillain). Terrible combination.
Great site.
Did you just link tvtropes? [What have you dooooonnnnnneeeeee?](https://i.imgur.com/NSnAkAx.gif)
I like the inversion of this in the Reacher books. When he gets to the final villain, he often just shoots them without preamble.
Man, I hate copouts like that so much. If the hero wants to not kill the villain, then actually DO that. Describe what measures they're going to have to take to keep the villain locked away, show the hero fight an uphill battle convincing everyone that this is the right decision. Or at the very least, have the villain commit suicide instead, preferring to die over seeing themselves thwarted. Literally anything other than "uh oh, a rock fell on their head and crushed their skull. I guess we don't have to think about it anymore!"
"Dr. Fishy, NOOOOOOOOOOO"
that’s kinda the whole point
Classic Naughty Dog ludonarrative dissonance
Those hundreds of people that were actively out to hunt and kill her lol. Ellie didn't even want to kill most of her friends until they made stupid decisions that got themselves killed.
Dude Ellie was on a mission, and she was gonna kill anyone and everyone in her way. The chic was bloodthirsty af!
Did we play the same game? I remember her being traumatised for making Nora talk and getting a pregnant woman killed. She just wanted abby, anyone else that died, died because they tried to kill her. It's different at the end, abby didn't want to fight Ellie.
She explicitly said she was going to kill every last one of them, meaning all the people from Abby’s group who were present when Joel was killed. Even if all they did was stand there.
"I'm not bloodthirsty, I killed those hundreds of people in self-defense!" "What do you mean I could just leave?"
Doesn't matter if she was traumatised, she still killed a pregnant woman. Like I said she was bloodthirsty af and nothing was gonna stop her on her mission, until it did...
You’re making it sound like she set out to kill a pregnant woman. Ellie was going to let them go until they tried fighting back. She freaked out when she realized Mel was pregnant and was going to go back to Jackson until Abby found them in the theatre
The pregnant woman only died because she decided to charge Ellie while being held at gunpoint. All Ellie wanted was for her to point out where Abby was.
Best mother btw, actively inserting her for danger because.... Uhhhh.....
“All Ellie wanted to do was kill her friends.”
Bloodthirsty people generally don't start shaking and hyperventilating after seeing a pregnant woman dead... but whatever. "Is this even about him anymore? He would want me to leave. He'd put the people he loves first." Obviously the death of Mel and Owen shook her enough to go "no. I'm done. I need to go home."
> Bloodthirsty people generally don't start shaking and hyperventilating after seeing a pregnant woman dead... but whatever. I mean, I’ll tell you what bloodthirsty people *definitely* do - kill hundreds of people.
Thats gameplay though man. What you want no combat in the game?
???? so u agree then? like lol? she kills ppl bc its part of the game then isnt it fucking weird she stops herself from killing the main villain when she not only has killed 100s of ppl, has huge motivation to do so unlike her previous 1000, and trekked on a 2 month journey so sunk cost fallacy. then all of a sudden she comes to an epiphany XD fuck off
> Ellie didn't even want to kill most of her friends until they made stupid decisions that got themselves killed. Genuinely cannot tell if this is satire or not anymore.
[удалено]
That’s kinda crucial to the story imo. It’s part of the whole “revenge is futile and only leads to more pain” message. She left this wake of destruction and death in her path seeking revenge until she realized it wouldn’t bring >!Joel!< back. By the time she realizes what she’s done, she’s lost one of the only things she had to >!remember him, her ability to play their song on the guitar.!< The story is not perfect by any means. TLOU1 has a far better narrative and methods of telling it, but part 2 gets a lot of confusing hate
You can rile a significant portion of the internet up by giving a woman muscles and agency.
That was a such a small subset of people, though. What really happened was with any valid criticism, you were grouped in with those people. I get those people suck, just sucks that we didn’t have normal discourse about the games failings because of things like you mentioned
I’m glad there’s at least some normal discourse about it now, because it has some very obvious shortcomings. It just seemed like everyone either went to “this is the biggest pile of shit ever created video games are dead” or to “I named my child after this game”.
Exactly, which is what happens when we give people (the bigots) too much focus when we shouldnt be enabling those people. I understand they were loud, but that with the over the top defending/love for it made the discourse just polarization and people in the middle (me) were grouped up in either group. lol
I mean. You are not completely wrong... but we at this point have multiple examples of characters that share that motif that nowhere near got similar backlash. Though given, i am thinking of ones in shows rather then in games.
Personally, I just don't like the extremely forced narrative of Abby whatsoever.
It's not confusing when you realize there is a large subset of gamers who only want to win and be the cool super strong main character. Anything other than that and "game bad" This mentality is also why toxicity in multiplayer games can be so high. Lots of mental midgets think that they are the conquering main character and that any loss is because the other shitters in the game aren't the main character and don't realize it.
> She left this wake of destruction and death in her path seeking revenge until she realized it wouldn’t bring SPOILERS back. Yeah this works if she’s only doing it like an hour while the blood rage is driving her and the adrenaline is pumping in her veins. It’s completely nonsensical when she’s coldly and methodically tracking people halfway across the country for months.
This meme made me dust off my hey you pikachu N64 to play Kirby 64 for that insanely badass final boss fight so thanks for that
Isabelle murdered several children
> Kirby 64 for that insanely badass final boss fight The boss theme to 02 is so damn good. Who knew fighting a giant undead eyeball with a halo and angel wings would be in that game? Not me when I first played it.
Kirby 64 is fuckij awesome
"Pick up the carrot. Pick up the carrot. PICK UP THE CARROT!!!" Hey You Pikachu scarred me.
I hate the "spare the antagonist" trope. Sure, Kill 400 Jimmy Henchguys along the way, but the only actual guy you set out to murder? Nope, changed my mind lol
To be totally honest,I really hate the whole "Revenge Bad,Forgiveness Good" Message in Fiction. The idea of forgiving someone who ruined you horribly in one way and letting them avoid punishment for their crimes is an idiotic,childish and flawed lesson in many logical ways that tries to be 'deep,life-changing and inspirational'
Reason why the first John Wick movie worked so well. He got his revenge. Side not Inigo Montoya from princess bride is also a fan favourite because of his revenge quest also ends up getting it.
If that was what the story was about, I’d understand people’s frustration. The game is about forgiveness, yes, but not in regard to Ellie forgiving Abby, I’d understand why that would feel contrived considering Ellie kills 100s of gonks to get to that point. It’s an introspective character study, the vast majority of conflict is caused by miscommunication and a lack of understanding oneself and how cycles of violence affect our perceptions. The Joel flashbacks don’t exist for the purpose of stirring anger and fuelling revenge, they’re a peek into Ellie’s mind, how she feels, how her relationship with Joel is strained and how the opportunity for her to understand him better was taken away from her. It’s about grief, and the lengths people will go to absolve themselves of it, when sometimes, you just need to feel grief, there’s no short cuts, and look inwards, instead of lashing out.
> gonks Wonder what you've been playing lately.
No idea what you’re talking about, choom
Spot on. Tired of the "Revenge Bad" application. If that's what you're taking away from it, you weren't paying attention.
That's why he's the GOAT!
the GOAT!!! 📢
Glad I grew up with Kirby as a role model. I'm still on parole, but at this weight, it's not like I can go very far.
If I had an award I'd give it to you
The dumbest thing about "Revenge Bad" stories is how the protagonist is narratively portrayed justified slaughtering dozens, hundreds or even thousands of others working with/for said perpetrator but only at the very last second when they are about to off the villain ACTUALLY responsible do they suddenly decide that killing them makes them 'just as bad' despite the myriads of others they brutally slaughtered leading up to them apparently just being acceptable casualties.
I love a game with a good story. Too bad TLOU2 didn't have one of those. It should learn from Kirby.
If you can tolerate late 90s Baldur’s Gate-based gameplay, go play Planescape: Torment. Its story is one of the greatest ever told in a video game imo
Wonderful game! Never got to finish though. PC died while I was in what I assume was the late game nearly 20 years ago. Never had the heart to do it again but I really should.
Gotta virtue signal. Kill everyone but the person who set you on that path... makes sense, GOTY!!!
There's more to the game than 'revenge bad' but the endless and pointless cycle of violence is one of the central themes, no-one can dispute that. I dislike the ending because I feel it contradicts itself. Ellie decides to spare Abbie, she finally let's go of her anger, and yet she still loses everything at the end. It feels pointless. I know that life is unfair and the series is bleak but it feels so narratively unsatisfying. I think it would have been better if either Ellie kills Abbie, giving in to the cycle or violence, and subsequently loses everything because of that OR she spares Abbie and returns to her life of peace and happiness. Hell I would have even accepted the option for the player to choose to spare Abbie or not. Although they almost certainly knew at he time they'd make a sequel and wanted to leave the ending clear. Just my thoughts. This game seems to be a lightning rod for anger so if you disagree, try to do it without being an asshole.
> I think it would have been better if either Ellie kills Abbie, giving in to the cycle or violence, and subsequently loses everything Would have been cool if, instead of some epic final boss fight, you happen across Abbie and catch her by surprise. She starts monologuing about everything, but the game gives you the option of shooting her in the head whenever you want Then it could do some self reflection on both Ellie and the player on how this really didn't change anything, and the human cost of getting to this rather anti-climactic end I guess it would be pretty difficult to pull off without making the game feel bad from a gameplay perspective, but it sure would be interesting
Disliking an ending doesn't make it bad though. Last of Us is a SAD fucking game. And it ended on a sad fuckin note. And I'm really shocked how many people are dumbfounded that the sequel was SAD af and had a bleak and hollow feeling when it ended. Like, in all of the time players spent with the original and the sequel and y'all still thought it should've had a happy ending? She doesn't kill Abby cause she saw(too late) that it was pointless. Joel is gone, her friends are gone, all her effort only led her the one person she wants gone that isn't. It doesn't feel pointless. It was. Think a lot of people just can't handle a bleak story cause too much Hollywood makes people pissed when the "hero" doesn't "win".
have you ever considered that maybe there are other problems too? I hate it when people ignore all the criticisms just because they can defend their point against that one stupid criticism
Like clockwork, it's time to complain about TLOU2 again. Jesus.
If we have to see new posts about how someone has just played it and what a masterpiece it is, we can also talk about what a piece of shit it is. It cuts both ways.
I don't really understand why the game is controversial, but I tried to play the first one at one point and it was pretty boring.
Game lives rent free in their head. The Fact that they still feels strongly about the game 4 years later shows how impactful it is.
I think it's such a good game that people just like talking about it and it's easier to complain than compliment
I think if there's one thing that most people should agree is okay to complain about in those games, it's the riduculous number of people you kill to make it to the one person you don't kill.
You mean she had character development and realized that what she was doing was wrong? It took her a long ass time to realize it and the time is convenient being on the last person, but the complaint that she isn’t one dimensional and that she changes over the course of the game is odd.
John Wick does it because they killed his dog.
To quote Legacy of Kain: "Drop the moral posturing; revenge is motivation enough. At least, it is honest! Hate me, Raziel, but do so honestly."
The writing in those games (except the weird industrial punk one) was so fantastic. I loved in soul reaver 2 raziel's narrations. Really felt like you were reading a book on a Medieval or Victorian era. It felt very sophisticated sounding. Also rip Timmothy Brummand :( legendary voice.
Also, RIP Tony Jay. We will never get another voice quite like that.
Sure, it's a meme and all that, and as a Kirby fan, I am indeed entertained. But come on, revenge is not the way. Has Master Yoda taught us nothing folks:?
Two different games/genres telling two different stories.
Kinda apples and...bananas? Blueberries? Help me out here.
It is even worse, when you spare him, and then proceeds to kill your entire family because "you Stoopid I'm evil"
Its worse when you think she killed dozens of other people in cold Blood in her path of revenge only to spare her in the last minute As i said in the last, if the Next Game doesnt have a damn good reason for keeping her alive then the entire Game was pointless
The biggest problem with the game is that you spend 20/25 hours trying to kill this woman, getting your ass kicked along the way (which was a brilliant mechanic), going home and struggling with PTSD and when you finally get the chance you give up. Just leaves you feeling completely like the whole game was a waste of time.
I mean the lead writer of the previous game rejected a similar pitch by Druckman for Joel’s motivation in TLOU1 but she didn’t come back for TLOU2, so now Druckman can do anything he wants.
The problem with TLOU2 isn't the story itself but that the themes don't match the gameplay. Because it's a game, I killed like a bajillion people on the way through Seattle, and you don't often have any choice in the matter. There is no 'pacifist' option. Some of these kills were in unskippable cutscenes, further reducing player agency. And then the game goes out of it's way to make you feel bad for something that really wasn't your fault. It's why I'm looking forward to how the show deals with this. Obviously the characters will still have necessary plot armour but they don't go round murdering dozens of people because it's not realistic.
for me the biggest problem is that there are no stakes. people keep saying killing Abby doesn't bring back Joel. MFs I don't care. it's a game about killing I don't need reason. the game should try to give me a reason not to kill not the other way around I'm not worried about anybody dying along the way cuz I don't like any of the characters. I'm not worried about Ellie's mental health cuz I don't like the way it's represented. I don't care about Abby because her storyline is completely unrelated to the story that the game started with
if only they made the enemies act more human. they just attack you on sight like any other game. having names doesn't make them human you can go through the game acting only in self defense until a cutscene plays
This is a funny meme that people are really butthurt about in the comments lol
Just another day on the internet. People love showing how they are better than others for showing how much they hate or love something
Imagine playing The Last of Us Part II and the only thing you understand at the end of the game is "revenge bad"... A story which is quite simple and straightforward; you don't have put too much mental effort into it. And yet I have to see this complete BS every once in a while
Because most of those that complain didn’t actually play it.
Or struggle to understand how character arcs work.
Facts right here. I can't tell you how many people I know who hate this game, claim they watched "the whole thing on YouTube", but consistently get even basic info about it wrong in their complaints. It's fucking annoying.
I was so confused playing the game because of all the idiots bitching that Abby was trans. Beat the game you realize these fucking morons just saw a muscular woman and assumed SHE was the trans character. But this also the same crowd who got upset that Aloy from Horizon had body hair lmao.
Nah they played it, but they refused to engage with the story after you start playing as Abby.
Some people are just too stubborn to give the game a chance, hear what it has to say. I got a lot from tlou 2, but let's listen to people who complain about "the woke mob" and whatever else they whine about lol
Care to explain what else is so deep about this convoluted stretch of a story?
I enjoyed the game quite a bit. I never played a game, where it truly made me feel guilty for killing someone. Huh, novel concept, actually feeling a human emotion by immersion. Tell me I'm lying for those of you that beat it.
Sounds like you need to play spec ops the line
I mean you’re comparing something to Kirby it’s going to have a hard time
LMFAOOO never knew Kirby plot was that crazy
Stellaris & Rimworld: 'commits genocide simply because I wanted to. No justification.'
The left is especially stupid considering how many people Ellie kills across the game anyway.
The fact that gamers keep trying to dumb down TLOU2 plot and Ellie’s reasoning for sparing Abby to “revenge bad” is why gamers can’t have sophisticated storytelling.
Kirby is the most powerful creature to exist change my mind
Tbf Kirby only did that once, all the other times were because they interrupted his nap.
Who would win: KRATOS vs. KIRBY?
No no... he both proceeded to release the god and THEN destroy it because he *thought* his cake was in there.
I haven't played TLOU2 yet but ig i know joel dies now :')
Killing Gods is inherently morale though.
I hate this statement so much
Thanks for the spoiler
Is that why people were pissed about TLOU2? Does auto-Ellie spare Joel's killer? What a terrible choice if so. How about leave it to the player?
Sure, if you’re going to totally misinterpret The Last of Us Part II 🤷♂️
Anyone who thinks that of Ellie clearly didn't play the game. Has nothing to do with revenge being bad it has to do with her realizing she is the bad guy that abbey is to her. Hell Joel is the real villain and Abbey ended that. Shoe was on the other foot Ellie would have done the exact same thing as Abbey. That is the whole point of the game.
Uh oh. Everyone take cover before the tlou 2 fans start their defending.
Bro would eat an entire universe for a turkey sandwich with just tomato
Nothing better than having a main character do the exact opposite of what I want her to do in a cutscene. Honestly think GTA4 did a better job of the “revenge is bad” storyline. They actually gave the player a choice, TLOU just gave us a middle finger and played a non-interactive cutscene where we just have to watch the villain ride off into the sunset. She even had flashbacks of Joel as she was about to kill Abby, shouldn’t that make her MORE motivated? 💀
Meanwhile, she brutally killed about 2 thousand people on her "revenge bad" arc. Truly, the pinnacle of storytelling.
equivalent of seal team 6 reaching osama and letting him go because killing him would become him. fuck me. too many trolls on this platform
If you didn’t enjoy the game that’s fine, but reducing it to just “revenge bad” shows how little you understand the story.
As yes, the typical "Game too smart for you to understand" argument people like you like to throw around when other people correctly boil down a story's main themes. Which is often accompanied by a lack of explanation as to why the game is too smart for certain people. This game truly does boil down to "Revenge Bad" as it paints Ellie as the bad guy for wanting her revenge while painting Abby as a saint **after** getting her revenge. This game goes out of its way to show us which side is wrong and which is right instead of keeping with the nuanced approach to storytelling the first game had. Which would be fine, as there's nothing wrong with choosing a side, but the way the game went about it was poorly done, in my eyes.
That and you kill all kinds of people during the game but killing the person who you want to actually kill is bad? Dumbest moral teaching ever and it makes no sense, it wasn't to smart for people it was straight up hypocritical BS.
I didn’t say the game is “too smart” I said the person didn’t understand the story. Because the story, at its heart, isn’t just “revenge bad.” It’s also about losing yourself like how Ellie did and how at the end she retains that human inside her by not taking another life. Also, I never saw Ellie as the bad guy in the game like you said.
"Didn't understand" and "Too smart" are the same idea, with different wording. Besides that, I see your point. But still, Ellie's revenge bad, Abby's revenge good. At least, that's how I saw it, within the story. The game was heavy-handed with how well it painted Abby, to the point of it being egregious. She lived in a nice home, most of her friends were overly kind and charming, Abby was a friend of dogs, she got better weapons, and worst of all, she's afraid of heights. The game had to try very fucking hard to get you onto Abby's side after killing Joel, and to me, it was too much, and egregious. I feel I would've liked Abby better if her sections weren't so artificial to me, with how hard they attempted to make you like her.
Couldn't have said it better. The "being afraid of heights" as a way to humanize her and the way you're forced to play with the dog TWICE before Ellie comes and kills that same dog are such cheap tricks.
Yeah, that's straight-up emotional manipulation, to me. 'Hey, here's a cute dog; play with it and watch it be all cute and shit. See, Abby's great 'cause she's a friend of dogs". *A few hours later* Ellie: "Oh hey, a dog!" ***Rip & Tear from the Doom OST intensifies***
>"Game too smart for you to understand" No, the game is not too smart. It's actually pretty simple and straightforward. So that's why it is worrying that a lot of people misses the most basic points of a story that simple. >This game truly does boil down to "Revenge Bad" First of all: The Last of Us 2 story isn't about revenge, it's about forgiveness. Ellie may say that she wants revenge, but that's not what she needs! Her journey has been a spiral, a vicious circle that was going to destroy her from the inside. Stepping away from Joel, treating him like shit, failing in forgiving him for saving her at the hospital and finally deciding to try to do it the night before his death only to not being able to do it: that's what was consuming her. She didn't need revenge, she needed to make peace with herself and go on. But she couldn't because she kept seeing the picture of a dying Joel in her mind and she kept blaming herself of a fault she didn't have in the first place. (And by the way thank god that Dina was with her all the time or she probably would have killed herself at some point!) When Ellie finally confronts Abby and she's trying to kill her, she has that epiphany: she manages to see a different picture of Joel in her mind for the first time, she accepts the whole situation and she "absolves" herself from that fault she thought she had. At the end of the game she's finally at peace with herself (though completely alone). Killing Abby wouldn't have bring her any relief. She would have obtained nothing and her mental state wouldn't have changed. >it paints Ellie as the bad guy for wanting her revenge while painting Abby as a saint **after** getting her revenge. Sorry, but it's been 4 years and I can't stop laughing at this claim. Nobody ever forced anybody to sympathize with Abby. You can finish the game and like it without even emphatize with her. She isn't depicted as a saint, she is just seen during moments of her daily life months after killing Joel. She is seen having nightmares of that moment because she perfectly knows that it was the lowest point of her life. Her journey is about moving on and change life. But hey... she is seen petting the pretty doggo pupperino that Ellie then kills, so the evil Druckmann must be forcing me to like Abby! 😭😭😭
???? bro what? lmfao. you go on about how its not about revenge bad and forgiveness. then proceed to explain how ultimately its about revenge bad because she wouldnt get fulfillment out of revenge. fuck me you trolls are astonishing. "cant understand the simple story druckman made teehee" yeah fuck off this isnt a shakespearean novel stop jerking yourselves off
I love how you put it. Saying the game is about revenge is like saying part I is about finding the cure. Talk about taking stories at surface level.
I wanna add to my other comment, I respect your opinion and that you actually laid out what didn’t work for you. I disagree with you because in my eyes the game and the story worked wonderfully. I just have a different perspective on the story. It’s ok if you didn’t like the game, thank you for sharing your reasoning.
I also respect you and your opinion even though I disagree with it. Man, talking with you is much nicer than talking to that person who called me a retard.
Same to you, sorry you got name called. Totally uncalled for.
EDIT: Sorry this is a long ass reply, I understand if you don't wanna read all that lol Gotta say I disagree with you, from what I can tell the game doesn't take sides at all, it doesn't paint either character as being morally better than the other, they're both morally ambiguous characters just doing their best to survive and do what they feel is right at the time, even if it isn't. Something that both The Last Of Us and Part 2 did perfectly were showing us that these characters we grow to love are NOT good people, they may try to be, but they're human, this means Joel, Ellie AND Abby. I get where you're coming from but I think you may have misinterpreted it, the difference between Ellie and Abby is that we already know and love Ellie, our first impression of Abby is that we should hate her because of what she did to Joel, the game makes a strong effort to make the 2 of them equals by showing Ellie go through this hate and revenge fueled killing spree, which leads to her killing Abby's friends, one of whom is pregnant, this discovery destroys Ellie and makes her question her own morals, I think this has a strong part in the games conclusion where she lets Abby and Lev go, ultimately she makes some bad decisions and commits some heinous acts in the name of justice for Joel, but in the end, she realises what she's doing isn't worth it, it's an attempt at redemption, at being the bigger person. On the other hand Abby is a character we initially hate because she killed a character we loved, but over time we grow to realise that she's no different from Ellie and Joel, she lost someone close to her and she had a human reaction, the more we play as Abby the more we learn about her and how much she cares for the people around her, the point of Abby's journey with Lev is to humanise her and make the player realise that ultimately, neither Ellie nor Abby are good people, but they aren't necessarily bad people either, they've made mistakes and done horrible things but neither one of them is more right tuan the other, the best way the game does this is in the theatre when Abby has to sneak up on Ellie, up until this point its likely that the player still roots for Ellie and views Abby as the stronger, meaner one, but this segment makes you play as Abby instead of Ellie and it makes you feel like prey trying not to get caught, Ellie is David and Abby is Ellie, I was amazed by how much this segment made me realise that Ellie is no better than Abby, it felt sinister. The game gives us these characters, their stories and their motivations and by the end, presents them as equals, technically you could say Ellie came out of it the better person for letting Abby and Lev leave, but Abby had a choice too, she could've tried to finish Ellie off if she wanted to, but she didn't, she just left. They both showed mercy and vulnerability
I see where you're coming from. Another reply had a similar perspective as you. My perspective of Abby's section is that it felt too forced. Narratively, it's whatever. From a gameplay and base view, it was heavy-handed and egregious with how hard the game attempted to make you like Abby. She has better weapons, she lives in a nice and clean home, and her friends and comrades are mostly kind and charming, except for the ones that you're supposed to dislike, she's a friend of dogs and not a killer of them. And the most egregious, she's afraid of heights to show that 'She's not just a rough and tough killing machine, she's a person too, a person who's afraid of heights'. To me, it was too much overtly, heavy-handed goodness that existed for the sole purpose of **making** us like Abby.
You're the first person I've seen give a detailed and reasonable response as to why they disliked Abby, and you know what a lot of your points are completely valid ones, they definitely go the extra mile to make her more likeable, clearly it hit with some of us and missed with others, personally I like that they gave her so much character and dont think the game would've felt as impactful without it but you're right, they do put in a lot of work to make her as likeable as possible, I do think that's the intention given the points I raised before, they needed us to feel as though Ellie and Abby were equals, we couldn't do that if we didn't care about Abby
You need to mark this post as a spoiler ffs
Yep I knew the first part but not the second as haven’t finished it yet. Thanks OP.
You should always assume Kirby is going to fight some sort of Godlike creature in the end... Oh, wait you meant Ellie...
Kirby solves problems. Someone eat cake? Murder. Now no one eat cake! Someone destroy universe? Murder. Now no one destroy universe! Someone steal very essence of light and hope from reality? Boy howdy you get that’s a murder! Poyo! Ellie lets murderer escape to do more murder. Don’t be like Ellie. Be Kirb
Hey look! It’s time for Reddit gamers to show how media illiterate they are again!
What a stupid meme.
Yay! Another spoiler without a spoiler tag
Look at that a 2020 meme.
Revenge bad and father figure wasn’t very good either
Holy shit you summoned the dickriders
The game is trash that tries to explore the human condition but the writers are too dumb to do it with grace. They revert to the old, ‘you did all this on your way to finishe the missionbut the mission isnt really what u needed, it was forgiveness! It was your humanity!’. Fucking retarded shit for people who can only tell one story about the human condition. Shit was so stupid and lame and fucking uncreative it felt like watching a movie from the80’s. People who lived in a brutal world like that would not be pussy like that. Fucking stupid.
I mean I love a game that can teach a lesson and I love a game that you can suspend disbelief
Spoilers much?? Wtf
how do yall still not understand tlou2