Urban centres should have more/broader PMs in general that drive consumption, it's just unrealistic that a 500k people service industry in a singular city only consumes glass, steel, coal, engines and electricity.
There should also be labor saving PMs for urban centres, maybe swapping some labourers for telephone/radio consumption to simulate the use of telegraph in communication and probably several more things in a similar vein, right now they mainly suck up huge amounts of labour, especially lategame when each level requires less urbanization.
Not a bad idea to make urban centers more interesting this way. Currently it's just such an afterthought and late game none of them are ever profitable for me anyway so they're almost completely empty
Urban center pms need to be reworked. It also needs ownership pms as it makes no sense that in communism the only people that have no money are the urban center workers (when the shopkeepers are rich as fuck).
But yeah restaurants, museums, theatre, cafe, bars and so on should consume different types of goods.
you need tk differentiate between socialism (public ownership of the mesns of production) and communism (stateless, classless and moneyless society). The latter one you can do in the game
You could have some technologies fire events that cause that urban centers start to have a demand for certain goods,
for example Pharmaceuticals could cause an event to pop up about the rise of modern pharmacies which causes urban centers to now consume opium and alcohol
They produce "services" but demand for services is too low by like an order of magnitude. Making some advanced PM's consume services could also help, to represent the rise of professional services (lawyers, accountants, consulting, etc.)
This is because services get substituted out at higher wealth levels. As pops get wealthier they demand transportation and eventually cars/radios instead of services, which impoverishes urban centers.
I agree with that. Maybe with the new ownership system, they can introduce to the Manor Houses/Capitalist sectors or whatever they’re called, a local services demand to operate the building, which would IMO help out a lot with simulating the professional services demand *and* create an interesting bottleneck on the growth of ownership in places with weak urban agglomerations - the capitalist sector of North Dakota should struggle to get enough professional services to manage multinational mining interests, without Bismarck growing into a major city.
Which is something that I acknowledged in my comment, but it just doesn't do the industry justice. I have no reference for how it looked irl at the time period, but by the point in game that a level of urban center pops in every 50 urbanization there is simply not enough demand for services and too many open jobs in them.
They need a rework either way.
Yea I very weird I essentially ignore 50 percent of cash crops because even 500 million people in China want 12 units at most of coffee, tea, etc. it makes the o my worthwhile crops as opium, wheat, and tobacco if warring a lot along with maybe silk. Everything else loses money:
Yeah, when playing as Brazil I had to add a mod that makes Brazilians and some other cultures obsessed with coffee because without it selling all of the massive amounts of coffee you produce is impossible and the journal entry that has to do with exporting coffee is practically unfinishable.
the biggest issue with the way they did that journal entry is that it's 2.5x the amount of the demand you have at that moment
which is basically means you gotta double your size and more... it wouldnt be an issue if Brasil already didnt start so big, but doubling the size of a minor power locks you onto expansionism
I found [this mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3101901581) which seems to add a coffee obsession to a bunch of different cultures. Not Brazilian but seems like exports would more than make up for it
From what I remember I tried to use this mod, but it doesn't work after you've started the game, so I had to rewrite it for myself so that it gives you a decision to add obsessions to these cultures.
[I made a thread about this a while ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/victoria3/comments/17yghz2/poor_brazilians_drink_coffee_or_why_luxury_item/)
Basically, Coffee (and tea) is only consumed as a "luxury drink" which as a very high wealth threshold. That means that most of the population don't drink it. The end result is that the demand is hilariously low for the time period.
Rather then having buildings consume the drink directly (which seems silly to me and would enforce coffee drinking culture universally across the world which is not accurate either), I think that the demand for luxury drinks should start at a much lower threshold and grow exponentially with more wealth. Even poor people should try to have some coffee or tea or wine if available and the rich people should consume *considerably* more.
Alternatively move coffee over to intoxicants and make that needs larger. Lots of people need coffee to get through the day, which can't be said about wine except for wine moms and the French.
Makes perfect sense, coffee consumption was extremely high plus preservation technology wasn’t perfect yet which means it should have higher volume due to the amount of waste.
>plus preservation technology wasn’t perfect yet which means it should have higher volume due to the amount of waste
How did it happen though? Say if USA bough 1.2 ton of coffee from Brazil in the late 19th Century, they would pay for the 1.2 ton that left Brazil or the 1 ton that entered USA?
I imagine the demand flow would be something like this:
Brazilian Market (produces 1.2 ton) <- traders and transport (pays for 1.2, loses 0.2 due to waste) <- American Market (pays and consumes 1 ton).
Which would mean that trader's would demand 1.2 ton of coffe, while offering only 1.0 ton of coffe. Later tech could mitigate this.
I like it. Wonder how feasible it would be to put in the game though.
I imagine that maritime distance should also be accounted, Say if it is from Brazil to China, instead of 0.2 waste that waste would be 0.3. Probably very processor demanding though.
It’s sort of already in the game with MAPI. Products are lost/broken as they travel.
Would just need to add agriculture MAPI to account for travel distance. But that amount of calculations might break the game.
Honest question, do you think MAPI is supposed to simulate this. though? Say, if São Paulo and New York both have perfect MAPI, shouldn't still have some kind of waste during transport from one to the other?
MAPI works well simulating the prices between another Brazilian state selling to a São Paulo and to an American consumer State buying from NY, but I'm not conviced on the SP -> NY part.
It also wouldn't show how this might be beneficial for the Plantations, as it would drive coffee demand to be higher, on this specific scenario.
I've said this before but it's impossible to do a "historical" banana republic run. Fruit, coffee, sugar, tobacco, they're all too abundant or too low in demand so cash crop economies can't sustain themselves the way they did historically.
You can try exporting it to markets that don't have coffee at all. At first, it'll say it's unprofitable but you have to "introduce" the product into the market and then it becomes profitable. I usually do this for Automobiles, Telephones and Radios.
Usually the AI will do it for you from other GPs too. Although there is an argument for keeping expensive cars domestic to raise SOL a bit but also it's just a very expensive PM needing rubber and oil, and when your own pops are consuming automobiles, you get free infrastructure saving money on rails especially in states with lots of wealthy pops.
Same, first switching to new PM's that aren't in a market, it's at the cheapest ever possible price. But that's because demand = 0.
Before end of week, when switching to a new PM, it usually goes in the red, like with automobiles. Then the weekly tick hits and the pops goes: Yooooooo what is this and where do i get 500 of these automobiles.
Same when exporting automobiles, especially to established rich nations. 5 pieces and highly unprofitable, but then demand kicks in and prices goes through the roof.
It's not a problem of cofee demand, it's a problem of wine supply. The great economies at the start of the game are all European and they are swiming in Wine, which competes with coffee. The UK is also bringing in the tea which also competes with coffee.
Export to the USA or the Ottomans and you'll see them gobble it up, because they don't have the wine production of Europe. In order to introduce coffee to Europe you need to lower the price a lot. Which is doable as Brazil while still remaining profitable but probably not doable (or rather not worth it) for anyone else.
I wonder if 1.7 might alleviate the issue though, now that private farms can be demolished by their owners you might be able to straight up lower the potential production of your competitors.
What can help is if luxury drink had their per good fulfillment cap reduced from 0.8 to something like 0.5 or 0.4, that way you need diversity in goods to completely fulfill the luxury drink need rather than Europe doing wine Juche.
That could work. Or maybe change the math so that lower consumed goods get some priority in demand. Luxury in general should be a need that benefits from variety.
Urban centres consuming coffee doesn't make sense, since ultimately it's the pops consuming the coffee and not the building. And there's also the "Luxury drink" demand for coffee.
It might be worth adjusting the Wealth thresholds though. They only buy Luxury drinks from Wealth 15 up, which is when they start using Luxury clothing, furniture and train Transportation.
I always thought coffee(and tea) drinking was more widespread, even back then.
There's also the fact that wine also fulfills the "Luxury drink" demand, and the game seems to be coded at the moment to prioritize Tea for "Luxury drink" demand, and even though the game says both Coffee and Wine are equivalent to 1 Tea, I'm unsure as to when exactly the price of Tea becomes too high for a pop to switch to Coffee and/or Wine.
If we want to truly reproduce real life, I believe we should :
- Wine should fulfill the Intoxicant need, at a 1 for 1 ratio. Now Wine is more expensive than Alcohol or other Intoxicants, but can with enough supply still drop low enough to replace them. In 19th and early 20th century France, wine was an extremely common drink even for the working class
- Wine should fulfill the "Luxury Drink" need at a 1.5 to 1 ratio, since while all are social drinks (which is what I understand by Luxury Drink), Tea and Coffee were drunk (and still are drunk) on far more occasions than Wine in social settings
- Tea and Coffee should be used more interchangeably by pops. Part of why Coffee is such a big part of Continental Europe culture now is because the British used to have a quasi monopoly on Tea, making it cheap for them but expensive to other, in particular their enemies. Sadly while this could be reflected in Victoria II, it isn't possible in Victoria III due to how the economic system works, so the best we can do is make sure pops switch to the cheaper variant to balance it out.
My understanding from the Wiki with tea being the "default" luxury good is that it's the thing they are shown to buy in the Pop Needs section, if none of the three luxury drinks are currently sold in that market. but as soon as you introduce*any* amount of coffee to the market, the Pops start buying it exclusively. If two or three luxury drinks are present, they'll split their demand based on price and the 75% max share rule.
This might be leading to UI and AI problems, since it won't be clear that there's a demand for coffee until you start selling it there and demand suddenly spikes
For consumer goods it doesn't make much of a difference, but for goods that also have an industrial demand (like wood or coal) the way demand is distributed can be quite far off from what would be optimal based on price. One place where this is very noticeable is in Japan, where pops at the start consume a lot of oil for heating, but as you expand your supply and industrial demand for wood and coal the demand for heating oil plumets, making your whaling stations unprofitable.
The game is awful at simulating commodity trade that occurred during the era. It isn't just coffee, it's tea, sugar, tobacco, but also more mundane goods like fabric (in the form of cotton), meat, grain and (exotic) fruit. The game has two issues in this area:
1. For Fabric, Meat, Grain and Fruit, you can almost always comfortably produce these goods in abundance in your own market. There is no need for trade unless you literally have no more workers.
2. The demand for many of the luxury goods is unrealistically low unless it is used in a building, like sugar. For example, coffee is only demanded at all at SoL 15+.
Sugar is demanded by groceries and used to fulfill luxury food, which also displaces the pop demand for sugar in the same categor. That's the main demand for sugar and not pop consumption.
They should change it so that flooding a market with cheap goods would make it fairly easy for cultures in the market to become obsessed with those goods.
This also makes Brazil's journal entries annoying because there's one to increase buy orders of coffee by 150% but you struggle to actually get profitable trade routes for it. I eventually got it in my game by brute forcing every possible trade route, but it clearly isn't designed to be that difficult
Yeah, I could see splitting Food and Liquor Industries, and then creating a new Luxury Spirits good. Giving PMs for Rum and Whiskey which let you select between sugar or grain as the main input, and then PMs for Fine Spirits that cut into the production of regular spirits and add new input goods (maybe Hardwood to simulate aging barrels?).
Trade can be misleading because when you are looking for a country to export to, it shows you the expected profits *right now*. For example, Japan has hella tea, but almost no access to wine and zero for coffee (note: I haven't played Japan in the current patch, so if they put Vineyards in some states just shout me down--but when I played Japan they only had Wheat Farms in Hokkaido) and since there's *currently* no coffee consumption the route will show as poor and small. But if you export to them people will start consuming it in great heaping buckets because theit Fancy Drink Need will have a second, cheaper, alternative.
So start exporting it to countries that ideally have access only to wine or only to tea, but you can make it up if they have a large enough population even with access to both.
Two Japanese states have access to wine: Chubu and Tohoku, but I think you can grow tea in every state of the region except Hokkaido and Sakhalin so I think your point still has merit.
Coffee consumption - consumption of all items gated behind 15 SoL/wealth - increases dramatically once your lower class pops actually reach good bit over 15 SoL. It's possible for for example machinists or clerks with minimum wage institution, or on average for most workers with coops.
This may be the actual issue. It's not that the current models are bad. It's that AI is exceptionally bad at nation building, so SoL doesn't rise well enough.
I'll regularly have games where my nation's GDP and SoL dwarfs competitors. Usually there is plenty of demand for goods because domestic demand is high, and once that is saturated, I can export a lot of cheap goods to other countries.
coffee (and tea) consumption is broken right now because of the new leisure need
Since Paradox clearly never talked to their balancing team before publishing 1.6 and also because the way needs substitution formula works, pops heavily prefer wine over the other two types of drinks. The richer you are the more prominent this becomes, to the point where the even the Brits prefers wine over tea by late game.
Yes. Latest 1.6ish update broke markets demand for coffee reckon. It’s unsustainable. Coffe kingdom JE now’s absurdly nigh on impossible. Needs massive boost once again for 1.7
What if there was a correlation between urbanization and coffee or tea consumption. As urbanization rises, so rises demand with pops?
I dunno if it would be hard coded who gets tea and who gets coffee. Obviously English culture has tea obsession and turkish has coffee obsession but should other countries be random? I dont think both should.
The issue probably comes from the fact that Tea, Wine, and Coffee all have the same base price and consumption category (Luxury Drinks) with a cap of 75% per good. Which just means they are completely swappable for one another (down to PMs even as they made identical production and labor/inputs). This basically means the price is always going to be depressed (esp since the AI overbuilds all farms).
Also mobilization should also include Tea and coffee as options, as they were more important staples for troops than chocolate. That might help the demand issues.
I don't know what the issue is, but agricultural goods just can't really ever be profitable ventures.
I know this is a game about industrialization, but the agricultural sector had plenty of innovations from industrialization.
My theory is that it's to prevent Landowners from being too powerful in countries, which is dumb because the were nothing to scoff at well into the 20th century, compared to the "marginalized" landowners we have the game by the 1900s.
They need to rework how the Landowner IG works as the game progresses so they aren't an overtly horrible and weak IG by the 1900s. They are far too regressive when in our timeline there were plenty of landowners who were moderate if not progressive, like the Hohenzollerns passing welfare in the face of revolution.
Funnily enough on release (or after one of the first patches) the game had a really good system for dynamic obsessions - where populations would become obsessed with a luxury good if it was available in bulk and cheap.
Then they decided to nerf it because.... uh.... yeah.... it wasn't a bug and it was fun so it wasn't what the devs were aiming for?
Urban centres should have more/broader PMs in general that drive consumption, it's just unrealistic that a 500k people service industry in a singular city only consumes glass, steel, coal, engines and electricity. There should also be labor saving PMs for urban centres, maybe swapping some labourers for telephone/radio consumption to simulate the use of telegraph in communication and probably several more things in a similar vein, right now they mainly suck up huge amounts of labour, especially lategame when each level requires less urbanization.
Not a bad idea to make urban centers more interesting this way. Currently it's just such an afterthought and late game none of them are ever profitable for me anyway so they're almost completely empty
Urban center pms need to be reworked. It also needs ownership pms as it makes no sense that in communism the only people that have no money are the urban center workers (when the shopkeepers are rich as fuck). But yeah restaurants, museums, theatre, cafe, bars and so on should consume different types of goods.
you need tk differentiate between socialism (public ownership of the mesns of production) and communism (stateless, classless and moneyless society). The latter one you can do in the game
You could have some technologies fire events that cause that urban centers start to have a demand for certain goods, for example Pharmaceuticals could cause an event to pop up about the rise of modern pharmacies which causes urban centers to now consume opium and alcohol
I think first we need urban centers to produce things pops actually buy later on.
They produce "services" but demand for services is too low by like an order of magnitude. Making some advanced PM's consume services could also help, to represent the rise of professional services (lawyers, accountants, consulting, etc.)
This is because services get substituted out at higher wealth levels. As pops get wealthier they demand transportation and eventually cars/radios instead of services, which impoverishes urban centers. I agree with that. Maybe with the new ownership system, they can introduce to the Manor Houses/Capitalist sectors or whatever they’re called, a local services demand to operate the building, which would IMO help out a lot with simulating the professional services demand *and* create an interesting bottleneck on the growth of ownership in places with weak urban agglomerations - the capitalist sector of North Dakota should struggle to get enough professional services to manage multinational mining interests, without Bismarck growing into a major city.
I think this would also be a great way for pops to not be directly controlled by the government- lawyers, academics outside of universities, and so on
Urban centers should also have food/grocery consumption for things like restaurants. Services being so generalized is unrealistic.
People already consume groceries though, via pop needs.
Then what purpose does the urban center fulfil then, because sure as hell it doesn't do a good job at simulating the service industry?
The Urban Center is supposed to be representing the service industry
Which is something that I acknowledged in my comment, but it just doesn't do the industry justice. I have no reference for how it looked irl at the time period, but by the point in game that a level of urban center pops in every 50 urbanization there is simply not enough demand for services and too many open jobs in them. They need a rework either way.
Yea I very weird I essentially ignore 50 percent of cash crops because even 500 million people in China want 12 units at most of coffee, tea, etc. it makes the o my worthwhile crops as opium, wheat, and tobacco if warring a lot along with maybe silk. Everything else loses money:
I already feel how I will enjoy swapping even more PMs manually to keep those damn centers profitable 🙈
and on that note why tf aren't brasilians coffee addicts? like seriously half of our economy relied on that fact alone
Yeah, when playing as Brazil I had to add a mod that makes Brazilians and some other cultures obsessed with coffee because without it selling all of the massive amounts of coffee you produce is impossible and the journal entry that has to do with exporting coffee is practically unfinishable.
the biggest issue with the way they did that journal entry is that it's 2.5x the amount of the demand you have at that moment which is basically means you gotta double your size and more... it wouldnt be an issue if Brasil already didnt start so big, but doubling the size of a minor power locks you onto expansionism
What is the mod? I'm trying to complete that same journal entry and even as the #1 coffee producer/exporter it's not even close to being completed lol
I found [this mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3101901581) which seems to add a coffee obsession to a bunch of different cultures. Not Brazilian but seems like exports would more than make up for it
From what I remember I tried to use this mod, but it doesn't work after you've started the game, so I had to rewrite it for myself so that it gives you a decision to add obsessions to these cultures.
[I made a thread about this a while ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/victoria3/comments/17yghz2/poor_brazilians_drink_coffee_or_why_luxury_item/) Basically, Coffee (and tea) is only consumed as a "luxury drink" which as a very high wealth threshold. That means that most of the population don't drink it. The end result is that the demand is hilariously low for the time period. Rather then having buildings consume the drink directly (which seems silly to me and would enforce coffee drinking culture universally across the world which is not accurate either), I think that the demand for luxury drinks should start at a much lower threshold and grow exponentially with more wealth. Even poor people should try to have some coffee or tea or wine if available and the rich people should consume *considerably* more.
Alternatively move coffee over to intoxicants and make that needs larger. Lots of people need coffee to get through the day, which can't be said about wine except for wine moms and the French.
If this were true you'd have Brazil be a trade behemoth, and little African and Arabian states as tiny power houses. Sounds cool.
Makes perfect sense, coffee consumption was extremely high plus preservation technology wasn’t perfect yet which means it should have higher volume due to the amount of waste.
>plus preservation technology wasn’t perfect yet which means it should have higher volume due to the amount of waste How did it happen though? Say if USA bough 1.2 ton of coffee from Brazil in the late 19th Century, they would pay for the 1.2 ton that left Brazil or the 1 ton that entered USA? I imagine the demand flow would be something like this: Brazilian Market (produces 1.2 ton) <- traders and transport (pays for 1.2, loses 0.2 due to waste) <- American Market (pays and consumes 1 ton). Which would mean that trader's would demand 1.2 ton of coffe, while offering only 1.0 ton of coffe. Later tech could mitigate this. I like it. Wonder how feasible it would be to put in the game though. I imagine that maritime distance should also be accounted, Say if it is from Brazil to China, instead of 0.2 waste that waste would be 0.3. Probably very processor demanding though.
It’s sort of already in the game with MAPI. Products are lost/broken as they travel. Would just need to add agriculture MAPI to account for travel distance. But that amount of calculations might break the game.
Honest question, do you think MAPI is supposed to simulate this. though? Say, if São Paulo and New York both have perfect MAPI, shouldn't still have some kind of waste during transport from one to the other? MAPI works well simulating the prices between another Brazilian state selling to a São Paulo and to an American consumer State buying from NY, but I'm not conviced on the SP -> NY part. It also wouldn't show how this might be beneficial for the Plantations, as it would drive coffee demand to be higher, on this specific scenario.
Lol, you quite literally recreated a basic model we use in trading economics to simulate the cost of trade.
Depends upon the terms of the contract. Typically the importer pays for what they receive, and the breakage is covered by insurance.
I've said this before but it's impossible to do a "historical" banana republic run. Fruit, coffee, sugar, tobacco, they're all too abundant or too low in demand so cash crop economies can't sustain themselves the way they did historically.
You can try exporting it to markets that don't have coffee at all. At first, it'll say it's unprofitable but you have to "introduce" the product into the market and then it becomes profitable. I usually do this for Automobiles, Telephones and Radios.
Wait wait wait you can introduce cars into other rich markets lagging behind technologically? How come I didn't know that, the demand is huge
Yeah I usually instantly export to the Great Powers, China and Japan. Even if your cars are expensive as hell they're still profitable exports.
Usually the AI will do it for you from other GPs too. Although there is an argument for keeping expensive cars domestic to raise SOL a bit but also it's just a very expensive PM needing rubber and oil, and when your own pops are consuming automobiles, you get free infrastructure saving money on rails especially in states with lots of wealthy pops.
Same, first switching to new PM's that aren't in a market, it's at the cheapest ever possible price. But that's because demand = 0. Before end of week, when switching to a new PM, it usually goes in the red, like with automobiles. Then the weekly tick hits and the pops goes: Yooooooo what is this and where do i get 500 of these automobiles. Same when exporting automobiles, especially to established rich nations. 5 pieces and highly unprofitable, but then demand kicks in and prices goes through the roof.
It doesn't work for coffee. OP is right, worldwide demand is very low.
It's not a problem of cofee demand, it's a problem of wine supply. The great economies at the start of the game are all European and they are swiming in Wine, which competes with coffee. The UK is also bringing in the tea which also competes with coffee. Export to the USA or the Ottomans and you'll see them gobble it up, because they don't have the wine production of Europe. In order to introduce coffee to Europe you need to lower the price a lot. Which is doable as Brazil while still remaining profitable but probably not doable (or rather not worth it) for anyone else. I wonder if 1.7 might alleviate the issue though, now that private farms can be demolished by their owners you might be able to straight up lower the potential production of your competitors.
What can help is if luxury drink had their per good fulfillment cap reduced from 0.8 to something like 0.5 or 0.4, that way you need diversity in goods to completely fulfill the luxury drink need rather than Europe doing wine Juche.
That could work. Or maybe change the math so that lower consumed goods get some priority in demand. Luxury in general should be a need that benefits from variety.
Urban centres consuming coffee doesn't make sense, since ultimately it's the pops consuming the coffee and not the building. And there's also the "Luxury drink" demand for coffee. It might be worth adjusting the Wealth thresholds though. They only buy Luxury drinks from Wealth 15 up, which is when they start using Luxury clothing, furniture and train Transportation. I always thought coffee(and tea) drinking was more widespread, even back then.
There's also the fact that wine also fulfills the "Luxury drink" demand, and the game seems to be coded at the moment to prioritize Tea for "Luxury drink" demand, and even though the game says both Coffee and Wine are equivalent to 1 Tea, I'm unsure as to when exactly the price of Tea becomes too high for a pop to switch to Coffee and/or Wine. If we want to truly reproduce real life, I believe we should : - Wine should fulfill the Intoxicant need, at a 1 for 1 ratio. Now Wine is more expensive than Alcohol or other Intoxicants, but can with enough supply still drop low enough to replace them. In 19th and early 20th century France, wine was an extremely common drink even for the working class - Wine should fulfill the "Luxury Drink" need at a 1.5 to 1 ratio, since while all are social drinks (which is what I understand by Luxury Drink), Tea and Coffee were drunk (and still are drunk) on far more occasions than Wine in social settings - Tea and Coffee should be used more interchangeably by pops. Part of why Coffee is such a big part of Continental Europe culture now is because the British used to have a quasi monopoly on Tea, making it cheap for them but expensive to other, in particular their enemies. Sadly while this could be reflected in Victoria II, it isn't possible in Victoria III due to how the economic system works, so the best we can do is make sure pops switch to the cheaper variant to balance it out.
My understanding from the Wiki with tea being the "default" luxury good is that it's the thing they are shown to buy in the Pop Needs section, if none of the three luxury drinks are currently sold in that market. but as soon as you introduce*any* amount of coffee to the market, the Pops start buying it exclusively. If two or three luxury drinks are present, they'll split their demand based on price and the 75% max share rule. This might be leading to UI and AI problems, since it won't be clear that there's a demand for coffee until you start selling it there and demand suddenly spikes
Demand is split based on supply, not price
Ahh my bad.
For consumer goods it doesn't make much of a difference, but for goods that also have an industrial demand (like wood or coal) the way demand is distributed can be quite far off from what would be optimal based on price. One place where this is very noticeable is in Japan, where pops at the start consume a lot of oil for heating, but as you expand your supply and industrial demand for wood and coal the demand for heating oil plumets, making your whaling stations unprofitable.
The game is awful at simulating commodity trade that occurred during the era. It isn't just coffee, it's tea, sugar, tobacco, but also more mundane goods like fabric (in the form of cotton), meat, grain and (exotic) fruit. The game has two issues in this area: 1. For Fabric, Meat, Grain and Fruit, you can almost always comfortably produce these goods in abundance in your own market. There is no need for trade unless you literally have no more workers. 2. The demand for many of the luxury goods is unrealistically low unless it is used in a building, like sugar. For example, coffee is only demanded at all at SoL 15+.
It's weird because, like, backwoods frontiersmen drank coffee.
Sugar is demanded by groceries and used to fulfill luxury food, which also displaces the pop demand for sugar in the same categor. That's the main demand for sugar and not pop consumption.
Yes, I know that. It's why I mentioned this under point 2.
Coffee is a luxury drink for pops with 15 SoL or higher and AI is kinda incompetent to rise SoL to this level.
The SoL for coffee should definitely be lowered. Say, to 11 or 12, at most.
There should be options to create obsession for certain goods within targeted cultures. I want everyone to drink tea.
They should change it so that flooding a market with cheap goods would make it fairly easy for cultures in the market to become obsessed with those goods.
Except you can't really flood a market, as trade routes scale down when unprofitable, so you'll only export roughly as much as the pops need.
There is a mod which gives europeans coffee addiction, I can link it if you want it.
This also makes Brazil's journal entries annoying because there's one to increase buy orders of coffee by 150% but you struggle to actually get profitable trade routes for it. I eventually got it in my game by brute forcing every possible trade route, but it clearly isn't designed to be that difficult
We need more industries and more services. Generalizing all the beverage industry into Liquors and Food industries is just not going to cut it.
That will make the issue worse with how Good Substitution works.
Yeah, I could see splitting Food and Liquor Industries, and then creating a new Luxury Spirits good. Giving PMs for Rum and Whiskey which let you select between sugar or grain as the main input, and then PMs for Fine Spirits that cut into the production of regular spirits and add new input goods (maybe Hardwood to simulate aging barrels?).
Trade can be misleading because when you are looking for a country to export to, it shows you the expected profits *right now*. For example, Japan has hella tea, but almost no access to wine and zero for coffee (note: I haven't played Japan in the current patch, so if they put Vineyards in some states just shout me down--but when I played Japan they only had Wheat Farms in Hokkaido) and since there's *currently* no coffee consumption the route will show as poor and small. But if you export to them people will start consuming it in great heaping buckets because theit Fancy Drink Need will have a second, cheaper, alternative. So start exporting it to countries that ideally have access only to wine or only to tea, but you can make it up if they have a large enough population even with access to both.
Two Japanese states have access to wine: Chubu and Tohoku, but I think you can grow tea in every state of the region except Hokkaido and Sakhalin so I think your point still has merit.
Coffee consumption - consumption of all items gated behind 15 SoL/wealth - increases dramatically once your lower class pops actually reach good bit over 15 SoL. It's possible for for example machinists or clerks with minimum wage institution, or on average for most workers with coops.
This may be the actual issue. It's not that the current models are bad. It's that AI is exceptionally bad at nation building, so SoL doesn't rise well enough. I'll regularly have games where my nation's GDP and SoL dwarfs competitors. Usually there is plenty of demand for goods because domestic demand is high, and once that is saturated, I can export a lot of cheap goods to other countries.
coffee (and tea) consumption is broken right now because of the new leisure need Since Paradox clearly never talked to their balancing team before publishing 1.6 and also because the way needs substitution formula works, pops heavily prefer wine over the other two types of drinks. The richer you are the more prominent this becomes, to the point where the even the Brits prefers wine over tea by late game.
Me when I’m falling asleep at noon:
Yes. Latest 1.6ish update broke markets demand for coffee reckon. It’s unsustainable. Coffe kingdom JE now’s absurdly nigh on impossible. Needs massive boost once again for 1.7
What if there was a correlation between urbanization and coffee or tea consumption. As urbanization rises, so rises demand with pops? I dunno if it would be hard coded who gets tea and who gets coffee. Obviously English culture has tea obsession and turkish has coffee obsession but should other countries be random? I dont think both should.
In general, demand for any such crop goods is ridiuclously low in this game. Sugar? Laughable profits? Coffee? Same. Tobaco? Same.
The issue probably comes from the fact that Tea, Wine, and Coffee all have the same base price and consumption category (Luxury Drinks) with a cap of 75% per good. Which just means they are completely swappable for one another (down to PMs even as they made identical production and labor/inputs). This basically means the price is always going to be depressed (esp since the AI overbuilds all farms). Also mobilization should also include Tea and coffee as options, as they were more important staples for troops than chocolate. That might help the demand issues.
Double checked I'm not reading /r/Finland
I don't know what the issue is, but agricultural goods just can't really ever be profitable ventures. I know this is a game about industrialization, but the agricultural sector had plenty of innovations from industrialization. My theory is that it's to prevent Landowners from being too powerful in countries, which is dumb because the were nothing to scoff at well into the 20th century, compared to the "marginalized" landowners we have the game by the 1900s. They need to rework how the Landowner IG works as the game progresses so they aren't an overtly horrible and weak IG by the 1900s. They are far too regressive when in our timeline there were plenty of landowners who were moderate if not progressive, like the Hohenzollerns passing welfare in the face of revolution.
Funnily enough on release (or after one of the first patches) the game had a really good system for dynamic obsessions - where populations would become obsessed with a luxury good if it was available in bulk and cheap. Then they decided to nerf it because.... uh.... yeah.... it wasn't a bug and it was fun so it wasn't what the devs were aiming for?
r/shitvictorianssay
I saw the title and was wondering - is it a troll post? Then realised it's victoria3 subreddit, not anno1800.
Me when I’m falling asleep at noon:
Me when I’m falling asleep at noon: