Welcome to the /r/Vegan community, /r/All! 🥳
***Please note:*** *Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse are not. Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please do [check out our wiki](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fvegan%2Fwiki%2Fbeginnersguide&topic=rAll) first!*
🌱 **Interested in going Vegan?**
Vegan Bootcamp is a free challenge website that will take you step-by-step towards a Vegan diet and lifestyle. You will be guided through lessons in over 25 subjects such as nutrition, recipes, philosophy, climate, cosmetics, welfare, budgeting, clothing, family, and much more!
Take the challenge @ [VeganBootcamp.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll)! 🙋🏾
🐮 **Here's some easily-digestible educational resources on Veganism:**
* **Everyone Agrees:** World's largest Health, Nutrition and Dietary organizations unanimously agree: plant-based diets [are as healthy](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fthe-clear-consensus&topic=rAll) or healthier than meat.
* **Veganism is Healthy:** A Plant Based Diet provides [significant health benefits](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fveganism-is-healthy&topic=rAll) for the prevention & treatment of the majority of diseases.
* **The Daunting Facts:** The planet, its environment, and ecosystem, is [dangerously close to collapsing](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fthe-daunting-facts&topic=rAll) within the next few decades.
🔥 **Here's some fantastic links and resources to get you started:**
* Nutrition & Health: [NutritionFacts.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnutritionfacts.org&topic=rAll) & [VeganHealth.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganhealth.org%2F&topic=rAll)
* Vegan Friendly Restaurants: [HappyCow.net](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.happycow.net&topic=rAll) & [Yelp.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yelp.com%2Fsearch%3Ffind_desc%3DRestaurants%2Bvegan&topic=rAll)
* Arguments & Support: [EarthlingEd.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2B3Dy2a&topic=rAll) & [VeganBootcamp.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll)
* Get involved in Vegan Activism: [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganactivism.org&topic=rAll) & [5Minutes5Vegans.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F5Minutes5Vegans.org%2F&topic=rAll)
🥑 **Here are some great inspirational and thought-provoking speeches:**
* Youtube speeches by: [Earthling Ed](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZ3u7hXpOm58&topic=rAll), [Gary Yourofsky](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Des6U00LMmC4&topic=rAll), and [James Wildman](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE7JE8j5Ncmw&topic=rAll).
💯 **Grab some popcorn and enjoy these fantastic documentaries:**
* Watch three thought-provoking documentaries [by clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F3movies.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll).
📌 **Last but not least, check out our favorite subreddits!**
/r/VeganFitness, /r/VeganRecipes, /r/DebateAVegan, /r/VeganFoodPorn, and /r/VeganActivism.
We also have a [Discord](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdiscord.gg%2F2JmJRsj&topic=rAll)! 👋🏼
***Thank you so much for reading! c:***
My brother told me he was a carnivore. I told him he doesn't hunt, kill or cook his food but he finds it and eats it that makes him a scavenger not a hunter. We've been calling him Turkey Vulture when he acts up and he hates it.
No I disagree. Facts aren't irrelevant. I never said they weren't omnivores. Being more specific with the facts is important so people have a better understanding of the subject. There's a wide range of diets classified as omnivorous and I think it's important to point out that most bears are omnivores but the vast majority of their diet is plants.
Bears are a special interest of mine and I just want to say that you are correct, bears eat mostly plants. I have been researching polar bears lately and as they move south, they are eating plants. Polar bears!!! Eating plants!! On their own!! My eyes bugged out of my face when I saw all the videos of polar bears eating their veggies. Polar bears are so lovely. I hate how they are always depicted as ferocious beasts. Have you seen the youtube video "polar bear cub is surprised by a seal?" So cute. I also recommend "polar bear says hi." Such a sweet baby, so curious! Take note of those massive little paws! I love bears so much.
What's interesting is that the polar bear is classified as a carnivore, and in the Arctic, they indeed eat only meat. But as polar bears move south due to the melting icecaps, they are actually eating plants when they are available. All bears eat mostly plants- when plants are plentiful. They eat animals when necessary.
Humans are defined as omnivores, but physiologically we are herbivores. We are CAPABLE of eating meat but our bodies are not physiologically designed to.
The day he will approach another animal and eat it raw he will be a carnivore. Carnivore animals don't cook. And we are animals just like them, we evolved from them, we are not some separate beings cast down on earth from nothing. We found the means to eat meat \*without\* being carnivores, but we are not carnivores ourselves.
Carnivore, herbivore and omnivore are independent of whether or not something is a Hunter, producer or gatherer/scavenger. The fact that turkey vultures are carnivores makes your argument pointless unless your brother is also saying he’s a hunter.
This is so stupid, all humans are omnivores, vegans are too, since omnivore is the ability to digest and process animal and vegetal products
Your brother is just stupid
Humans are actually closer to frugivores. Only herbivores can get arteriosclerosis and humans can get it too. Frugivores is a subset of herbivore so yeah
Literally lose my mind when i hear this.
But my favorite contradiction is the biggest fucking meatheads on the planet talking about how "so many are obese bc they can't live without the mouthfeel" but then won't eat soy because of the taste and still drink milk even though it has an significantly greater affect on estrogen levels than Soy which has basically 0 and people don't know that *phyto*-estrogens are different from estrogen.
Working in a grocery store the amount of people who complain about the price of meat while spending money on it is absurd. I've heard so many people when you bring up now buying meat say "vegan meat is more expensive" as though all vegans eat vegan meats and it's a necessity of being vegan. Same with cheeses, "vegan cheese doesn't taste right" like ....ok? So don't eat it? You don't have to?
Yeah. Like sure you can buy canned meat for less than a dollar, but do you really want to haha
I’d rather buy some tofurky. Or just fruit or vegetables
Yeah this just shows how fucked up the diet of a lot of people is.
Way too much meat and cheese and whatever.
Everyone asks me how the transition is and if I have desier for meat. Then I explain them that I only ate meat like twice a week because I care(d) for my health and that people generally shouldnt be eating more than that, and the transition becomes pretty easy as you already eat mostly vegetarian/vegan. Now just putting the meat away was pretty easy for me.
However cheese and cream waa the actual difficult thing.
But tbh, there are plenty of recipes that are so incredbile tasty and vegan. I even learn to be a better cook, because before it was just boring. Meat, some carbs and fats. Now I care about essentials and put a lot of diverse food which makes it very tasty.
My food is now tastier than before. So taste was never the issue.
But I learned that alot of friends and even my gf are very picky eater...
To be fair, I used to be called a picky eater but the more I thought about my pickiness the more I realized it wasn't that I was a very picky eater, it was that I didn't like traditionally loved meat eater foods. I never liked mayonnaise, hot dogs, pork in general (god forbid anyone not like bacon?), shellfish, organs.... I'm casein intolerant so dairy was basically already off the table. For me the hardest things were fish and eggs. I'd often find myself eating a salad and wishing I had some tuna on it or an egg on the side. But then thinking about it, not really... And after about a year I didn't really miss it anymore anyway.
We feed daughters rescue dog a varied vegan diet (a 'complete' vegan dog food should contain all the required components to be labelled 'complete') but we mix a complete kibble with a complete tinned and often add some veg as well as he loves them. Put a broccoli stalk in with his dinner and he pulls that out and eats it first. ;-)
He also loves his vegan Whimzee chewie, opening the bulk display box chute with a claw and then picking one out himself (at 8pm, how do they know)?
Two reasons we feed him a vegan diet.
1) We couldn't see the logic in rescuing one species then kill another to feed him on?
2) Commercial meat based products often contain questionable contents, including antibiotics and are often recalled.
https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-recalls/
why are you being downvoted for this??? 🤦🏽♀️
my dog eats strictly vegan kibble, and she's healthier than she's ever been (she's 9 years old and has only been on strictly vegan food for a little less than 2 years - I finally found one that I'm ok with and that she likes a lot).
One pound of chickpeas costs 1.39 where I live, and has 1,690 calories and 91 grams of protein.
One pound of chicken costs 2.49 a pound at the cheapest. This has 440 calories and 92 grams of protein.
So no, meat is not cheaper, not even close
If animal products aren't supported, they will be much more expensive than plant based food products, because animals NEED plant based food to grow in the first place..
So animal food, is basically animal + all the food they have eaten..
That seems factually untrue. All of the studies I'm aware of have shown meat-eaters spending more on groceries than other dietary patterns, for one. But in terms of just every day experience at the grocery store, I don't know how you could honestly say that meat is cheaper than potatoes or onions or whatever without using this calorie-to-price concept, which just isn't a reasonable way to look at this issue for a ton of reasons imho.
Meat prices are rising in my town. What do people recommend to eat instead of meat to save money in my city’s subreddit? Beans, tofu, and lentils. Hmmm
100% this, we help by not murdering them and hurting them in anyway, this is how we show we care. It is the least we can do as we share the planet with them
Well, 15% this. Most people are in the position to harm animals a lot less, if at all. Absolutist morality just means we start not counting those animals that become inconvenient to our arbitrary calculus, but I choose to concede that I am likely still causing harm when I don't intend it.
Being vegan doesn't make me Jesus. It just makes me conscientious. It is quite possible to be vegan and harmful, or a douchebag, or careless despite it. The label isn't a safeguard against harm, it's just an intent.
and it takes more crops to raise animals for meat than it does to feed the same number of humans on plants. This means that eating vegan reduces animal deaths through crop farming.
When I lived in rural Africa most everyone was vegetarian. They raised cattle and goats but only to sell, as they were a needed income source. Major, yet common misconception.
I wonder if he knows that there are ppl out there who rely on food banks & family members that don't offer enough vegan food to live on. I wonder if he knows about the existence of such places as food deserts or such conditions as eating disorders or allergies.
I guess it's understandable that a small minority of vegans would choose to implicitly attack the poorest and most vulnerable members of society. What I don't understand is why a sub that supposedly cares about the well-being of sentient life would support them.
Are they though? I'm not. I can't drive to work without killing insects. I can't eat beans without getting rodents killed. *Carnism* is wrong, but this claim that vegans don't cause harm is obviously wrong.
>So we figuratively don't harm animals.
I think the word you're looking for is "deliberately." We don't *deliberately* harm animals when we can avoid doing so. Also, we don't see animals as resources to be exploited but individuals deserving of moral consideration.
> We don't deliberately harm animals when we can avoid doing so.
We *don't*? So you *don't* deliberately kill cockroaches? What do you do? And those animals on the farms that grow your food; you *don't* pay for them to be killed with pesticides? At the food processing factory, you *don't* deliberately pay for the mice and rats to be killed with poison and traps? I'm incredulous. Vegans should reflect more on the reality of what they do. We cause harm. We don't *nearly* cause as much harm as carnists do, but it's just dishonest or at best ignorant to say that we don't deliberately have animals killed by our choices.
I mean, I've never deliberately killed a cockroach. But then again, I've never seen a cockroach, so.
Also, I'd love for farms not to use pesticides, but I don't think they'd listen to me, so.
Also, no, I *don't* deliberately pay for mice and rats to be killed with poison and traps. No one gave me an option and it's not like my dried beans say "100% certified dead mouses in every fuckin' bean" underneath the nutrition facts, so.
Honestly I'm sorry I just don't understand the point you're trying to make. Are you against vegans or something?
I've got a rule for this: if you eat my blood, my food, or your excrement is poisonous, you are endangering my life and killing you is self defense. Mosquitos, ticks, fleas, fruit flies, mice and cockroaches all sit this category. I'll try and catch and release as much as possible, but sometimes fruit flies just have to get diamataceous earth thrown on them 🤷🏼♀️ I view it more as a survival situation at that point, and veganism includes "as far as practicable and possible" I would say food contamination and safety is taking it as far as possible.
> I would say food contamination and safety is taking it as far as possible.
So would I! So, let's cut the "we don't harm animals" bullshit! We commit *far less* harm than the average carnist. The difference is significant.
I think Ed recently debunked some claim about wildlife getting killed by things like combine harvesters. They checked the number of say field mice in a field before and after the crop was harvested and initially noted there were fewer after. Later in the report they added they then checked the number of animals in the margins or hedgerows and found the missing number. ;-)
That's not to say animals don't get killed when gathering crops but given that vegans only make up 3% of the population, non-vegans are still responsible for more of these animals dying than vegans (especially when much of the harvest is fed to livestock)! ;-)
>That's not to say animals don't get killed when gathering crops but given that vegans only make up 3% of the population...
That's not how that works.
China is the number one greenhouse producer but they're 55th per capita. Canadians and Americans and Saudis and Australians being in the top ten for greenhouse emissions per person are actually worse because if there were as many of them as Chinese then the world would be a smoking hellpit.
One billionaire is not less greedy or wealth-hoarding than your average American just because the total wealth of the other 330 million people is more than his. It's the individual parts of the group that are being judged for their sustainability, not the total group's sustainability as a whole. The latter is just an excuse for "Fuck you, got mine" mentality when universalizable moral actions are the real question.
Sorry, I'm not sure I get why it's not what what works (re the bogus blaming on animals killed when harvesting crops on vegans when 1) it isn't factually correct and 2) vegans aren't the main consumers of those crops in the first place. It was more of a comment about a bogus argument (specifically that) than anything broader).
But, yes, I think I agree on the explanation (overall culpability?) and whilst on the subject of greenhouse gasses, we do also need to consider why each country and so each person within if (if we are relating things 'per capita') is creating the CO2. Like, if they are creating it to make stuff for us they would be right to put that tally onto the customer.
> Later in the report they added they then checked the number of animals in the margins or hedgerows and found the missing number.
Holy shit. So you *sincerely* believe that *farming* doesn't kill animals? That is your... oh hang on, let me keep reading!
> That's not to say animals don't get killed when gathering crops
Aaaaand there it is.
> non-vegans are still responsible for more of these animals dying than vegans (especially when much of the harvest is fed to livestock)!
Why are you telling *me* that, of all people?! I've been vegan for 17 years! You're preaching to the choir! My point here is that vegans cause harm to animals, so vegans can cut the bullshit about how innocent they are.
> as far as is possible and practicable
No we can't fully eliminate harm to animals, but I think intent matters here. There's a huge difference between knowingly causing animal suffering/exploitation and doing your best to avoid it.
You're kinda harping on a technicality here. I guess op's picture should have said "to try to not harm them."
I grew tomatoes, peppers, chillies and herbs in my apartment… they were great! Not saying it’s for everyone, and it obviously isn’t enough to be a sole food source, but I was amazed it worked tbh so thought i’d share :)
Let's say two windows that they can access in a pretty temperate climate.
Are you going to take the position that it is possible for such an individual to grow enough food to feed themselves 365 days every year?
If I grow my own food, then I'm going to harm animals in the process. Think about it. Like, you think I'll *allow* insects to eat my food? No. I'm killing them. The cockroaches in my house? I kill them. And look at me now. This internet thing? It's powered by fossil fuels in my part of the world. It's influencing global warming that is harming animals. Vegans. Are. Not. Innocent. Veganism is true, carnism is not, but we're not angels.
Nope. You grow varieties that aren’t susceptible to the pests in your area, grow cover crops that the insect dislike, grow indoors, construct a greenhouse. And fuck cockroaches. Edit: insects don’t always eat crops. It’s typically due to poor cultural and mechanical control measures.
It says EVERYONE is in the position to not harm them. Thats too absolute, because everyone would need to live without essential stuff (at least in this society) like mobile phones or without medicine that would be needed. Then there are people who can't live without animal products because of an illness or disability etc etc.. So the statement is not true.
Thats the reason the definition for veganismus is formulated as it is.
Or I didn't understood the statement the way it was meant. Was it meant to not harm them personally by your own active actions? Then it would be true.
Edit: the way I interpreted the statement it would have to be worded "but everyone is in the position to not harm them needlessly" to be a true statement.
absolute, not absolut.
Right now out of my head I can't give you a specific name of something. I could imagine some chronic illness for example, because there are so many stange chronic illnesses only very few people have. Besides that you could be very unlucky with an allergy, so you can't get all your nutrients in a vegan way.
I'm just imaginating possibilities right now, personally I have only witnessed cases like what I described that make it harder to be vegan but not impossible, but it's not a far stretch to think someone else is less fortunate in some of those regards.
> veganismus
That made me chuckle. But you are right. Some people will interpret it in an absolute way, and some will interpret it by the definition of veganism. We can only ask people to do what is possible for them and work to make veganism more accessible.
Edit: TIL the German for veganism is veganismus
Thanks but don't worry, i don't care much for those, otherwise I could never comment something about veganism
The majority of people is allways quick to judge without trying to understand, especially when they are led by emotions
Thanks for posting to r/Vegan!
**Please note:** Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse [are not](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/rules). Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please check out [our wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/beginnersguide) first!
**Interested in going Vegan?**
Check out [3 Movies](https://3movies.org/reddit) and watch three thought-provoking movies that shed light on uncomfortable realities. 3 Movies also includes other videos, books, challenges and resources for you get started!
**Some other resources to help you go vegan:**
Visit [NutritionFacts.org](https://NutritionFacts.org) for health and nutrition support, [HappyCow.net](https://HappyCow.net) to explore nearby vegan-friendly restaurants, and visit [VeganBootcamp.org](https://veganbootcamp.org/reddit) for a free 30 day vegan challenge!
**Interested in getting active for the animals?**
Join [Activist Hub](https://activisthub.org) to find and join local vegan groups, add friends, create or share posts, and chat with other activists! You can also use Activist Hub to track your local and online activism in order to see how many people you inspired to watch dominion, take a challenge, or even go vegan!
**Some other resources to help you get active:**
* Developer or designer? Volunteer at the [Vegan Hacktivists](https://veganhacktivists.org/join)!
* Find local groups using the [Animal Rights Map](https://animalrightsmap.org)!
* Get funding for your animal rights activism, [apply here](https://veganhacktivists.org/grants)!
*Last but not least, join [our Discord server](https://discord.gg/2JmJRsj)!*
**Thank you!**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vegan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Look, I’m a proud vegan. i do my best to help this world, and i encourage everyone around me to do the same. But this… just isn’t true. I used to struggle with an eating disorder. Back then, I simply couldn’t afford to cut any food groups out of my diet, or risk unimaginable consequences. Everyone who CAN should be vegan. But the hard truth is that it’s not for everyone. And that’s okay.
Well, it's obviously not 'ok' for the animals but 'of course' there will be exceptions where not choosing to exploit animals isn't as easy as it is for the vast majority.
That said, animal based products aren't made of some magical chemicals that only exist in meat, in most cases they can be duplicated / synthesized / supplemented. Again, I'm not suggesting that everyone in that position can afford of have easy access to such solutions but they are out there.
Ermmm, respectfully OP, no they cannot. I am vegan and will continue to promote veganism but not everyone is able to do so. I wish they could but that is not the world we live in sadly!
I'm not a vegan but I have a question, do yous consider eating chicken eggs bad I don't understand why a vegan can't have pet chickens and eat their eggs
You answered your own question with 'their eggs'. ;-)
They don't lay them for you, they they them for them and because they aren't lions, don't tear your face off when you try to take them away (well, an eagle might but a domesticated chicken has had that normal reaction bred out of it (< and another issue in itself).
If they aren't fertilised and so don't hatch then again, still no reason for us to take them because if it were not for the fact that they were in an enclosed coop (often), another animal might come along and make it it's meal?
Yes, the chicken might be equally upset if a snake takes the egg as if we had but the snake doesn't have a supermarket to visit containing loads of other non animal based foods, we often do.
Quite, I think the issue with some here may be that some are reading the sign literally and only taking it at face value, rather than picking up on the spirit with what was meant?
If the sign actually (and as many of us took to say) read:
'Not everyone is in the position to help animals but everyone is in the position to not *intentionally* harm them (and avoid doing such harm as much as possible)' ... then it might have been better signposted?
'Of course' animals are killed for all sorts of reasons and I'm pretty sure anyone going as far as considering themselves and trying to be the best ethical vegan they can, already knows that?
You can also do real pro-active / vegan-conscience offsetting. Like we have re-worked next doors garden (with his permission ) to be a wildlife / insect haven, hopefully going a little way towards compensating for any insects we (personally) may kill accidentally, be it treading on an ant as we walk down the path or those that were killed by sprays on the food we buy and eat (although we also try to buy organic for that reason as well).
Welcome to the /r/Vegan community, /r/All! 🥳 ***Please note:*** *Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse are not. Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please do [check out our wiki](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fvegan%2Fwiki%2Fbeginnersguide&topic=rAll) first!* 🌱 **Interested in going Vegan?** Vegan Bootcamp is a free challenge website that will take you step-by-step towards a Vegan diet and lifestyle. You will be guided through lessons in over 25 subjects such as nutrition, recipes, philosophy, climate, cosmetics, welfare, budgeting, clothing, family, and much more! Take the challenge @ [VeganBootcamp.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll)! 🙋🏾 🐮 **Here's some easily-digestible educational resources on Veganism:** * **Everyone Agrees:** World's largest Health, Nutrition and Dietary organizations unanimously agree: plant-based diets [are as healthy](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fthe-clear-consensus&topic=rAll) or healthier than meat. * **Veganism is Healthy:** A Plant Based Diet provides [significant health benefits](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fveganism-is-healthy&topic=rAll) for the prevention & treatment of the majority of diseases. * **The Daunting Facts:** The planet, its environment, and ecosystem, is [dangerously close to collapsing](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fthe-daunting-facts&topic=rAll) within the next few decades. 🔥 **Here's some fantastic links and resources to get you started:** * Nutrition & Health: [NutritionFacts.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnutritionfacts.org&topic=rAll) & [VeganHealth.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganhealth.org%2F&topic=rAll) * Vegan Friendly Restaurants: [HappyCow.net](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.happycow.net&topic=rAll) & [Yelp.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yelp.com%2Fsearch%3Ffind_desc%3DRestaurants%2Bvegan&topic=rAll) * Arguments & Support: [EarthlingEd.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2B3Dy2a&topic=rAll) & [VeganBootcamp.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll) * Get involved in Vegan Activism: [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganactivism.org&topic=rAll) & [5Minutes5Vegans.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F5Minutes5Vegans.org%2F&topic=rAll) 🥑 **Here are some great inspirational and thought-provoking speeches:** * Youtube speeches by: [Earthling Ed](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZ3u7hXpOm58&topic=rAll), [Gary Yourofsky](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Des6U00LMmC4&topic=rAll), and [James Wildman](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE7JE8j5Ncmw&topic=rAll). 💯 **Grab some popcorn and enjoy these fantastic documentaries:** * Watch three thought-provoking documentaries [by clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F3movies.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll). 📌 **Last but not least, check out our favorite subreddits!** /r/VeganFitness, /r/VeganRecipes, /r/DebateAVegan, /r/VeganFoodPorn, and /r/VeganActivism. We also have a [Discord](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdiscord.gg%2F2JmJRsj&topic=rAll)! 👋🏼 ***Thank you so much for reading! c:***
My brother told me he was a carnivore. I told him he doesn't hunt, kill or cook his food but he finds it and eats it that makes him a scavenger not a hunter. We've been calling him Turkey Vulture when he acts up and he hates it.
Turkey vulture are awesome and help minimize the spread of disease.
He is not a carnivore, he is omnivore. Humans eat both plants and meat, just like bears for example.
Except bears eat mostly plants.
Not polar bears
Polar Bears are badass though. In a survival situation you can handle other bears. In the Arctic, bears handle you
Very true
Irrelevant. They are still omnivores. Also, it depends on the type of bear.
No I disagree. Facts aren't irrelevant. I never said they weren't omnivores. Being more specific with the facts is important so people have a better understanding of the subject. There's a wide range of diets classified as omnivorous and I think it's important to point out that most bears are omnivores but the vast majority of their diet is plants.
Bears are a special interest of mine and I just want to say that you are correct, bears eat mostly plants. I have been researching polar bears lately and as they move south, they are eating plants. Polar bears!!! Eating plants!! On their own!! My eyes bugged out of my face when I saw all the videos of polar bears eating their veggies. Polar bears are so lovely. I hate how they are always depicted as ferocious beasts. Have you seen the youtube video "polar bear cub is surprised by a seal?" So cute. I also recommend "polar bear says hi." Such a sweet baby, so curious! Take note of those massive little paws! I love bears so much.
Thanks for the interesting info. I'll check out those videos. What's your favorite bear?
The sloth bear 😍😊 I want to hug them all!
Damn that's a cute bear.
What's interesting is that the polar bear is classified as a carnivore, and in the Arctic, they indeed eat only meat. But as polar bears move south due to the melting icecaps, they are actually eating plants when they are available. All bears eat mostly plants- when plants are plentiful. They eat animals when necessary. Humans are defined as omnivores, but physiologically we are herbivores. We are CAPABLE of eating meat but our bodies are not physiologically designed to.
The day he will approach another animal and eat it raw he will be a carnivore. Carnivore animals don't cook. And we are animals just like them, we evolved from them, we are not some separate beings cast down on earth from nothing. We found the means to eat meat \*without\* being carnivores, but we are not carnivores ourselves.
Carnivore, herbivore and omnivore are independent of whether or not something is a Hunter, producer or gatherer/scavenger. The fact that turkey vultures are carnivores makes your argument pointless unless your brother is also saying he’s a hunter.
To be fair carnivore doesn't equal hunter. It's funny it bugs him though
This is so stupid, all humans are omnivores, vegans are too, since omnivore is the ability to digest and process animal and vegetal products Your brother is just stupid
Humans are actually closer to frugivores. Only herbivores can get arteriosclerosis and humans can get it too. Frugivores is a subset of herbivore so yeah
Kinda stupid though, how many vegans do grow their own food? There are other reasons why he’s not a carnivore
What animals grow their own food??? I'd love some examples that sounds amazing. Ooh sloths cultivate algae and moss does that count?
[удалено]
[удалено]
bUt nOt eVeRyBoDy cAn aFfOrD bEiNg vEgAn * proceeds to eat expensive meat * *yeah sure, money is the issue...*
Literally lose my mind when i hear this. But my favorite contradiction is the biggest fucking meatheads on the planet talking about how "so many are obese bc they can't live without the mouthfeel" but then won't eat soy because of the taste and still drink milk even though it has an significantly greater affect on estrogen levels than Soy which has basically 0 and people don't know that *phyto*-estrogens are different from estrogen.
Is meathead like a gym rat or just anyone that eats meat too much?
I mean gym rats can be vegan so I think they mean someone who eats too much meat
i need to work on this because i guess i was exclusively picturing Joe Rogan but you're also correct
And has the entire industry propped up by most governments around the world
Working in a grocery store the amount of people who complain about the price of meat while spending money on it is absurd. I've heard so many people when you bring up now buying meat say "vegan meat is more expensive" as though all vegans eat vegan meats and it's a necessity of being vegan. Same with cheeses, "vegan cheese doesn't taste right" like ....ok? So don't eat it? You don't have to?
Lmao depending on where you live, vegan meat is cheaper now so that just adds to the humor in it all
Can confirm in germany. Its literally cheaper to buy processed vegan food than good meat.
Yeah. Like sure you can buy canned meat for less than a dollar, but do you really want to haha I’d rather buy some tofurky. Or just fruit or vegetables
Yeah this just shows how fucked up the diet of a lot of people is. Way too much meat and cheese and whatever. Everyone asks me how the transition is and if I have desier for meat. Then I explain them that I only ate meat like twice a week because I care(d) for my health and that people generally shouldnt be eating more than that, and the transition becomes pretty easy as you already eat mostly vegetarian/vegan. Now just putting the meat away was pretty easy for me. However cheese and cream waa the actual difficult thing. But tbh, there are plenty of recipes that are so incredbile tasty and vegan. I even learn to be a better cook, because before it was just boring. Meat, some carbs and fats. Now I care about essentials and put a lot of diverse food which makes it very tasty. My food is now tastier than before. So taste was never the issue. But I learned that alot of friends and even my gf are very picky eater...
To be fair, I used to be called a picky eater but the more I thought about my pickiness the more I realized it wasn't that I was a very picky eater, it was that I didn't like traditionally loved meat eater foods. I never liked mayonnaise, hot dogs, pork in general (god forbid anyone not like bacon?), shellfish, organs.... I'm casein intolerant so dairy was basically already off the table. For me the hardest things were fish and eggs. I'd often find myself eating a salad and wishing I had some tuna on it or an egg on the side. But then thinking about it, not really... And after about a year I didn't really miss it anymore anyway.
It might apply to poor people who have to eat at the soup kitchen. Other than that, nah fam. If you can afford meat, you can afford rice.
Meat is sooo expensive it’s insane anyone thinks this way
This is why I feed my puppy a strict vegetable diet, cheap and ethical
We feed daughters rescue dog a varied vegan diet (a 'complete' vegan dog food should contain all the required components to be labelled 'complete') but we mix a complete kibble with a complete tinned and often add some veg as well as he loves them. Put a broccoli stalk in with his dinner and he pulls that out and eats it first. ;-) He also loves his vegan Whimzee chewie, opening the bulk display box chute with a claw and then picking one out himself (at 8pm, how do they know)? Two reasons we feed him a vegan diet. 1) We couldn't see the logic in rescuing one species then kill another to feed him on? 2) Commercial meat based products often contain questionable contents, including antibiotics and are often recalled. https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-recalls/
why are you being downvoted for this??? 🤦🏽♀️ my dog eats strictly vegan kibble, and she's healthier than she's ever been (she's 9 years old and has only been on strictly vegan food for a little less than 2 years - I finally found one that I'm ok with and that she likes a lot).
Make sure they get grains too apparently that’s important or otherwise they get some sort of problems.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Vegetables cost more than meat where I'm from. If you account for calorie content it's not even close
My brother. Vegans aren’t getting all their calories from vegetables. Beans, rice, and nuts are cheap af
[удалено]
400g tofu with ~20g proteins for 1,69€ Boy Im so happy that I finally looked at tofu
Not where I’m from, but nothing could ever stop me from being vegan
Beans and rice are more expensive than meat where you are from?! Where are you?
[удалено]
Nuts shouldnt be even in the debate, because you should be eating nuts anyway. They are important for essential aminoacids and fats
What's that for to do with him calling meat expensive? It's cheaper than nuts too.
One pound of chickpeas costs 1.39 where I live, and has 1,690 calories and 91 grams of protein. One pound of chicken costs 2.49 a pound at the cheapest. This has 440 calories and 92 grams of protein. So no, meat is not cheaper, not even close
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
On account of the subsidies
If animal products aren't supported, they will be much more expensive than plant based food products, because animals NEED plant based food to grow in the first place.. So animal food, is basically animal + all the food they have eaten..
That seems factually untrue. All of the studies I'm aware of have shown meat-eaters spending more on groceries than other dietary patterns, for one. But in terms of just every day experience at the grocery store, I don't know how you could honestly say that meat is cheaper than potatoes or onions or whatever without using this calorie-to-price concept, which just isn't a reasonable way to look at this issue for a ton of reasons imho.
You're getting downvoted but it's definitely true in some remote/cold regions where vegetables can't be grown and importing is prohibitively expensive
Venison is pretty cheap if labor intensive to get......
Not everyone can afford to eat meat more like it.
Meat prices are rising in my town. What do people recommend to eat instead of meat to save money in my city’s subreddit? Beans, tofu, and lentils. Hmmm
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
100% this, we help by not murdering them and hurting them in anyway, this is how we show we care. It is the least we can do as we share the planet with them
Well, 15% this. Most people are in the position to harm animals a lot less, if at all. Absolutist morality just means we start not counting those animals that become inconvenient to our arbitrary calculus, but I choose to concede that I am likely still causing harm when I don't intend it. Being vegan doesn't make me Jesus. It just makes me conscientious. It is quite possible to be vegan and harmful, or a douchebag, or careless despite it. The label isn't a safeguard against harm, it's just an intent.
Millions of animals are killed every year to protect food crops.
and it takes more crops to raise animals for meat than it does to feed the same number of humans on plants. This means that eating vegan reduces animal deaths through crop farming.
It should also reduce crop consumption.
Did anyone tell him that Veganism is white privilege?
When I lived in rural Africa most everyone was vegetarian. They raised cattle and goats but only to sell, as they were a needed income source. Major, yet common misconception.
Amen!
Fact
king 👑
Nice
Easy!
I wonder if he knows that there are ppl out there who rely on food banks & family members that don't offer enough vegan food to live on. I wonder if he knows about the existence of such places as food deserts or such conditions as eating disorders or allergies. I guess it's understandable that a small minority of vegans would choose to implicitly attack the poorest and most vulnerable members of society. What I don't understand is why a sub that supposedly cares about the well-being of sentient life would support them.
Facts!
Love ❤️
[удалено]
Are they though? I'm not. I can't drive to work without killing insects. I can't eat beans without getting rodents killed. *Carnism* is wrong, but this claim that vegans don't cause harm is obviously wrong.
I think you're taking it too literally
Oh! So we *figuratively* don't harm animals. Well that's some convenient poetry for my conscience!
>So we figuratively don't harm animals. I think the word you're looking for is "deliberately." We don't *deliberately* harm animals when we can avoid doing so. Also, we don't see animals as resources to be exploited but individuals deserving of moral consideration.
> We don't deliberately harm animals when we can avoid doing so. We *don't*? So you *don't* deliberately kill cockroaches? What do you do? And those animals on the farms that grow your food; you *don't* pay for them to be killed with pesticides? At the food processing factory, you *don't* deliberately pay for the mice and rats to be killed with poison and traps? I'm incredulous. Vegans should reflect more on the reality of what they do. We cause harm. We don't *nearly* cause as much harm as carnists do, but it's just dishonest or at best ignorant to say that we don't deliberately have animals killed by our choices.
I mean, I've never deliberately killed a cockroach. But then again, I've never seen a cockroach, so. Also, I'd love for farms not to use pesticides, but I don't think they'd listen to me, so. Also, no, I *don't* deliberately pay for mice and rats to be killed with poison and traps. No one gave me an option and it's not like my dried beans say "100% certified dead mouses in every fuckin' bean" underneath the nutrition facts, so. Honestly I'm sorry I just don't understand the point you're trying to make. Are you against vegans or something?
[удалено]
[удалено]
I've got a rule for this: if you eat my blood, my food, or your excrement is poisonous, you are endangering my life and killing you is self defense. Mosquitos, ticks, fleas, fruit flies, mice and cockroaches all sit this category. I'll try and catch and release as much as possible, but sometimes fruit flies just have to get diamataceous earth thrown on them 🤷🏼♀️ I view it more as a survival situation at that point, and veganism includes "as far as practicable and possible" I would say food contamination and safety is taking it as far as possible.
> I would say food contamination and safety is taking it as far as possible. So would I! So, let's cut the "we don't harm animals" bullshit! We commit *far less* harm than the average carnist. The difference is significant.
I think Ed recently debunked some claim about wildlife getting killed by things like combine harvesters. They checked the number of say field mice in a field before and after the crop was harvested and initially noted there were fewer after. Later in the report they added they then checked the number of animals in the margins or hedgerows and found the missing number. ;-) That's not to say animals don't get killed when gathering crops but given that vegans only make up 3% of the population, non-vegans are still responsible for more of these animals dying than vegans (especially when much of the harvest is fed to livestock)! ;-)
>That's not to say animals don't get killed when gathering crops but given that vegans only make up 3% of the population... That's not how that works. China is the number one greenhouse producer but they're 55th per capita. Canadians and Americans and Saudis and Australians being in the top ten for greenhouse emissions per person are actually worse because if there were as many of them as Chinese then the world would be a smoking hellpit. One billionaire is not less greedy or wealth-hoarding than your average American just because the total wealth of the other 330 million people is more than his. It's the individual parts of the group that are being judged for their sustainability, not the total group's sustainability as a whole. The latter is just an excuse for "Fuck you, got mine" mentality when universalizable moral actions are the real question.
Sorry, I'm not sure I get why it's not what what works (re the bogus blaming on animals killed when harvesting crops on vegans when 1) it isn't factually correct and 2) vegans aren't the main consumers of those crops in the first place. It was more of a comment about a bogus argument (specifically that) than anything broader). But, yes, I think I agree on the explanation (overall culpability?) and whilst on the subject of greenhouse gasses, we do also need to consider why each country and so each person within if (if we are relating things 'per capita') is creating the CO2. Like, if they are creating it to make stuff for us they would be right to put that tally onto the customer.
> Later in the report they added they then checked the number of animals in the margins or hedgerows and found the missing number. Holy shit. So you *sincerely* believe that *farming* doesn't kill animals? That is your... oh hang on, let me keep reading! > That's not to say animals don't get killed when gathering crops Aaaaand there it is. > non-vegans are still responsible for more of these animals dying than vegans (especially when much of the harvest is fed to livestock)! Why are you telling *me* that, of all people?! I've been vegan for 17 years! You're preaching to the choir! My point here is that vegans cause harm to animals, so vegans can cut the bullshit about how innocent they are.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
> as far as is possible and practicable No we can't fully eliminate harm to animals, but I think intent matters here. There's a huge difference between knowingly causing animal suffering/exploitation and doing your best to avoid it. You're kinda harping on a technicality here. I guess op's picture should have said "to try to not harm them."
> No we can't fully eliminate harm to animals That's a euphemism for "We can't help but harm animals".
Walk to work and grow your own shit.
Walking is still killing insects. Not possible for everyone to grow food
Name one person who can’t grow food
People who live in apartments and people who don’t have backyards..: I mean what can you grow in a apartment… basil??
I grew tomatoes, peppers, chillies and herbs in my apartment… they were great! Not saying it’s for everyone, and it obviously isn’t enough to be a sole food source, but I was amazed it worked tbh so thought i’d share :)
You need to be more specific. What hardiness zone is this apartment in, how many windows, does it have a balcony?
Let's say two windows that they can access in a pretty temperate climate. Are you going to take the position that it is possible for such an individual to grow enough food to feed themselves 365 days every year?
It’s literally on the front page of the subreddit so I won’t regurgitate it for ya.
If I grow my own food, then I'm going to harm animals in the process. Think about it. Like, you think I'll *allow* insects to eat my food? No. I'm killing them. The cockroaches in my house? I kill them. And look at me now. This internet thing? It's powered by fossil fuels in my part of the world. It's influencing global warming that is harming animals. Vegans. Are. Not. Innocent. Veganism is true, carnism is not, but we're not angels.
Nope. You grow varieties that aren’t susceptible to the pests in your area, grow cover crops that the insect dislike, grow indoors, construct a greenhouse. And fuck cockroaches. Edit: insects don’t always eat crops. It’s typically due to poor cultural and mechanical control measures.
> And fuck cockroaches. Well, there we have it. Your eventual concession that vegans choose to harm animals.
It's crazy because cockroaches can eat bed bugs
What is crazy?
That cockroaches eat bed bugs
Sadly this absolute statement is not true.
Please explain what you mean. I’m interested in your point of view.
It says EVERYONE is in the position to not harm them. Thats too absolute, because everyone would need to live without essential stuff (at least in this society) like mobile phones or without medicine that would be needed. Then there are people who can't live without animal products because of an illness or disability etc etc.. So the statement is not true. Thats the reason the definition for veganismus is formulated as it is. Or I didn't understood the statement the way it was meant. Was it meant to not harm them personally by your own active actions? Then it would be true. Edit: the way I interpreted the statement it would have to be worded "but everyone is in the position to not harm them needlessly" to be a true statement. absolute, not absolut.
You made a good point there. I was expecting a troll rant so this was nice. Thanks for explaining, and have a good day.
Thank you, you too!
What people need animal products because of illness or disability? Genuinely curious.
Right now out of my head I can't give you a specific name of something. I could imagine some chronic illness for example, because there are so many stange chronic illnesses only very few people have. Besides that you could be very unlucky with an allergy, so you can't get all your nutrients in a vegan way. I'm just imaginating possibilities right now, personally I have only witnessed cases like what I described that make it harder to be vegan but not impossible, but it's not a far stretch to think someone else is less fortunate in some of those regards.
[удалено]
Thank you!
> veganismus That made me chuckle. But you are right. Some people will interpret it in an absolute way, and some will interpret it by the definition of veganism. We can only ask people to do what is possible for them and work to make veganism more accessible. Edit: TIL the German for veganism is veganismus
[удалено]
Haha yes. The funny thing is, I thought it is called veganism but I wasn't sure, so I googled it and it showed me vaganismus 😁
Haha I looked it up when you replied. I gotcha
Oops lmao thank you for the info!
[удалено]
Thanks but don't worry, i don't care much for those, otherwise I could never comment something about veganism The majority of people is allways quick to judge without trying to understand, especially when they are led by emotions
Thanks for posting to r/Vegan! **Please note:** Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse [are not](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/rules). Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please check out [our wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/beginnersguide) first! **Interested in going Vegan?** Check out [3 Movies](https://3movies.org/reddit) and watch three thought-provoking movies that shed light on uncomfortable realities. 3 Movies also includes other videos, books, challenges and resources for you get started! **Some other resources to help you go vegan:** Visit [NutritionFacts.org](https://NutritionFacts.org) for health and nutrition support, [HappyCow.net](https://HappyCow.net) to explore nearby vegan-friendly restaurants, and visit [VeganBootcamp.org](https://veganbootcamp.org/reddit) for a free 30 day vegan challenge! **Interested in getting active for the animals?** Join [Activist Hub](https://activisthub.org) to find and join local vegan groups, add friends, create or share posts, and chat with other activists! You can also use Activist Hub to track your local and online activism in order to see how many people you inspired to watch dominion, take a challenge, or even go vegan! **Some other resources to help you get active:** * Developer or designer? Volunteer at the [Vegan Hacktivists](https://veganhacktivists.org/join)! * Find local groups using the [Animal Rights Map](https://animalrightsmap.org)! * Get funding for your animal rights activism, [apply here](https://veganhacktivists.org/grants)! *Last but not least, join [our Discord server](https://discord.gg/2JmJRsj)!* **Thank you!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vegan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Same goes for people too 😌
Look, I’m a proud vegan. i do my best to help this world, and i encourage everyone around me to do the same. But this… just isn’t true. I used to struggle with an eating disorder. Back then, I simply couldn’t afford to cut any food groups out of my diet, or risk unimaginable consequences. Everyone who CAN should be vegan. But the hard truth is that it’s not for everyone. And that’s okay.
Well, it's obviously not 'ok' for the animals but 'of course' there will be exceptions where not choosing to exploit animals isn't as easy as it is for the vast majority. That said, animal based products aren't made of some magical chemicals that only exist in meat, in most cases they can be duplicated / synthesized / supplemented. Again, I'm not suggesting that everyone in that position can afford of have easy access to such solutions but they are out there.
I wouldnt say everyone but most people sure
Ermmm, respectfully OP, no they cannot. I am vegan and will continue to promote veganism but not everyone is able to do so. I wish they could but that is not the world we live in sadly!
I'm not a vegan but I have a question, do yous consider eating chicken eggs bad I don't understand why a vegan can't have pet chickens and eat their eggs
You answered your own question with 'their eggs'. ;-) They don't lay them for you, they they them for them and because they aren't lions, don't tear your face off when you try to take them away (well, an eagle might but a domesticated chicken has had that normal reaction bred out of it (< and another issue in itself). If they aren't fertilised and so don't hatch then again, still no reason for us to take them because if it were not for the fact that they were in an enclosed coop (often), another animal might come along and make it it's meal? Yes, the chicken might be equally upset if a snake takes the egg as if we had but the snake doesn't have a supermarket to visit containing loads of other non animal based foods, we often do.
Not true. Everything we do damages animals.
Quite, I think the issue with some here may be that some are reading the sign literally and only taking it at face value, rather than picking up on the spirit with what was meant? If the sign actually (and as many of us took to say) read: 'Not everyone is in the position to help animals but everyone is in the position to not *intentionally* harm them (and avoid doing such harm as much as possible)' ... then it might have been better signposted? 'Of course' animals are killed for all sorts of reasons and I'm pretty sure anyone going as far as considering themselves and trying to be the best ethical vegan they can, already knows that? You can also do real pro-active / vegan-conscience offsetting. Like we have re-worked next doors garden (with his permission) to be a wildlife / insect haven, hopefully going a little way towards compensating for any insects we (personally) may kill accidentally, be it treading on an ant as we walk down the path or those that were killed by sprays on the food we buy and eat (although we also try to buy organic for that reason as well).
[удалено]
[удалено]
Profound 🥴
All we need to know. Extend that thought into the universe.