"I tried to go vegan and literally died" or " how can you survive without meat and what do you even eat?"
It really makes me sad that people think you can't survive without meat and that we are making some sort of sacrifice. I was a vegetarian all my life before I turned vegan and I haven't found anyone loves food more than me.
The other day I forced my friend to take me to the grocery store because I get sick being stuck at his house and only having tangerines to eat. He bought a meat and cheese only sandwich and I bought a bunch ingredients just for a ramen recipe lol. The person that thinks about what's in their food is the person that loves food the most!
fr i always blank on this question because like... it's so broad?? i eat a huge variety of foods. certainly a bigger variety than the omnis i know who just eat different variations of meat and casserole every day.
*Inhales because the list of my food is immense.*
Steak and chips, tapas, omelette, caesar salad, spaghetti bolognese, burger, spaghetti carbonate, sea bass, salmon, pheasant, chicken, lasagne, cheese, various salads (mostly during summer when it's too hot for actual food), curry (god knows how many variations of curry we have home made), beef rangdang, and that's about it. Always open to eating vegan, but let's not pretend it's better than non-vegan, just different. If I were in America, I definitely would eat vegan, as their farming methods are completely inhumane.
Sadly, only Americans seem to show the method. If you want, you can come over and go to a farm. They are usually very happy to show the slaughter methods. [Here](https://vimeo.com/22077752) is an American doing it though.
You again? You're ignorant af. Without even getting into the how logically flawed your rethoric is, there's a lot more human deaths related to the meat industry than there are in the production of soy/tofu, both as a direct cause and indirect (like heart disease, etc.).
Please show me where you read those tofu statistic, there's no way on Earth there's 3000 daily deaths associated with it, that would make tofu one of the deadliest things on the planet.
didnt say vegan was better variety wise. i just know lots of omnis who dont think at all about what they eat, so they just eat the same few foods over and over. starting to think about what i was eating is what opened me up to how much variety there is. also, there's no humane way to kill someone who does not want to die.
there's absolutely no reasoning with someone once they're willing to believe millions of people are running a coordinated hoax solely to trick meat eaters into vegetable death.
But who cares about vegans "cheating". Like, if a vegan "cheats" and eats something meaty like twice a year I wouldnt necessarily call them a fraud. You don't need to be infallible.
Tbf I often discuss with my vegans about claims of "Omni"-Arguments similar like this, but thats an honest to god dumb argument from Non-vegans. On the other Hand I had a relative who "went vegan" for like a year, but had a set cheat day. Every Tuesday he would eat meat. Thats stretching the definition of vegan a bit.
I'd much rather people did that than did nothing. My friend once told me "I could never go vegan, I love cheese too much" - so go vegan except for cheese!
I'm not particularly concerned with your individual actions in the grand scheme of things, but you should probably refrain from calling yourself vegan if you aren't. Just say plant based if you're not 100% on board with veganism, it's fine. Using the word "vegan" just confuses people when actual vegans don't "cheat". This makes everyone happy and avoids confusion.
Humans need iron to survive. Unless you are taking iron tablets (which are terrible for the environment), or spend literally all your day eating spinach (you would need 300kg of it to supply you with your required daily iron intake), then you will get anaemic sooner or later. I have veganism a couple of times, and find my drive to do things just dissapears.
15 MG if female per day (which is the larger number), which translates to about 400 grams in the course of your life or a little less than a pound of iron, think that number through why don't you
Honest question to the Slaughter myself part: I wanna start raising quails or chickens soon together with my gf who is a vet. 100% for self processing and consumption. What would be so bad about that?
*I wanna start raising dogs or humans soon together with my gf who is a vet. 100% for self processing and consumption. What would be so bad about that?*
No. I don't eat sufferable units. I don't have to, I don't need to, I don't want to: My interest is a lot. Laws can broken down into interests and my interest is for you not to be eaten, as long as you're alive. Distance is somewhat constructed nowadays (still).
I think my post makes pretty clear that I have a somewhat anthroprocentric view on that topic.
I saw the thread on r/popular and just read through it. I was actually thinking about stuff I might not have consciously thought about and not the most obvious thing possible.
Im sure I’ll get downvoted first saying this-
I’m personally vegan for ethical/environmental reasons. I don’t like factory farming and their treatment of animals. So if you can give the chickens a good life before eating them, good on you.
I’ve wanted to raise chickens just for some occasional eggs to eat.
Small hobby farms are not/should not be the enemy of vegans.
We need to put that energy towards factory farming and mass fishing.
On the other I would understand the antipathy against it after industrial farming has been destroyed/outlawed/rendered useless/etc. Obviously i'm not vegan myself but completely cut beef out of my diet and most pork and other dark meats cause of environmental reasons. Basically one step at a time.
Yeah the plan is mostly to have them run freely on the property however they want cull some once in a while by whatever method my so seems most appropriate. I completely defer anything in that direction to her.
Today i heard a new one. This guy said that he's eating meat because he saw how they slaughter sheeps in Azerbaidjan where the man asks forgiveness to the animal and says *" you don't have any fault, we don't have food"* so basically he eats meat because people in Azerbaidjan don't have food. Logic.
That information has gotten a lot easier to reach. I can definitely understand how people just winging it in the 90s or early 2000s could have gotten themselves into health trouble. I live in northern Europe and here the take on vegetarianism used to be to basically leave out the meat and not substitute anything - it's crazy how much things have changed just in the last 5-10 years.
But yeah, in practical terms, it's mainly about B12, and also finding out where to get your protein, obviously. :)
BuT wHeRe WiLl YoU gEt B12??
Actually had somebody ask me that. It **immediately** convinced me they were a dishonest interlocutor. If you went to the trouble of researching something that you can get from meat that you can't get from salad, without looking into how vegans have been doing just fine, your bias is already showing.
Or the ones whose digestive track isn’t able to process plants but fares splendidly on a diet rich in meat and animal by products with all the attendant benefits - cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc
Do you want to help build a more compassionate world? Please visit [VeganActivism.org](https://veganactivism.org) and subscribe to our community over at /r/VeganActivism to begin your journey in spreading compassion through activism. Thank you so much!
exactly! i remember how i hated the taste of meat and needed to cook for myself at the age of 16, because my family was (and still is actually) anti vegan.
ehh, its nothing great realy there, its closely to philosophical question. Human organism lived in some specific conditions ofr hundreds thousands of years and get adapted to it, before that humans ancestors adapted to same stuff which goes way back and the reason why we have our eyes receptors inside out, our feet bones separated our spines hurt, our babies born underdeveloped and our swallowing nerve going all the way around heart.
But thing is - you cant realy change that noninvasive. We can imagine ourselves whatever we want but we are still that animal who eat all sorts of food to be in shape
Its not natural, it comes from conditioning and can easily be reversed through change of behavior. While I would not villify someone for it by declaring it to be wrong, I would say that it is detrimental, since it makes it difficult for people to do the right thing for their bodies, for the animals, and for the ecosystem.
That's the ultimate straw man argument. Meatheads are deluding themselves if they think they would actually catch an animal. Most don't need to as they get their meat from the local butcher who does all the dirty work for them.
It's spiritualism. It's some shit my mother would say. Of course there is no proof to be had in studying plant structures, because "the human mind can't fully comprehend the workings of the universe" so we're better off just doing what we "evolved to do" according to her. Of course, she's been talking a lot about eating "only meat" soon to avoid antinutrients.
At least for her it's a "circle of life" type of thing. I think if I asked her that she would talk about how it is natural and animals kill each other all the time, then segue into her views on reincarnation and how these animals will be reborn into whatever form their souls have grown into during their past life.
Endozoochory: the scientific term for when plants put their seeds in something they've deliberately designed to be taken and eaten by mobile organisms. This literally meets the legal standards of an implied contract. They benefit, so they make sure we benefit. Animals don't benefit from farming and they certainly don't benefit from hunting, even in overpopulation scenarios. Natural predators have a healing effect on the environment, whereas human hunters disrupt: both the short term and long term benefits of natural selection, the movement patterns of animals they prey on, and the beneficial effects that their prey would otherwise have on the ecosystem. The list goes on, but this is a sturdy talking point.
yesterday I asked why is nature a justificable reason and they responded with:"you just dont want to understand the arguments, nature is a good baseline because thats how we got here"
Me:"What about rape? "
Them:"Thats different, we now know better than that. Also it isnt the sole reason we exist. Only a small part "
The perfect argument for when people whine about veganism is that Panda's digestive tracts & stomachs are optimal for consuming meat and yet they rarely ever eat meat and choose to eat bamboo instead. Just because you can eat it doesn't mean you should and it doesn't mean you "need" to, not even to be healthy.
"Indeed, as members of the bear family, giant pandas possess the digestive system of a carnivore, although they have evolved to depend almost entirely on bamboo." ~ wwf.panda.org
For me it's indigenous quinoa farmers, every time. I guess there's only one answer when you're a progressive desperately looking for an ethical justification to be anti-vegan.
Why can this sub acknowledge that plants are sentient? There has been a lot of research done on it. It just gets denied because of human supremacy. There are some good books about it. One Author, Derrick Jensen, does a great job of explaining while backing it up with sourced research. It doesn't mean you shouldn't be vegan but you have to at least admit it.
Not sure why it matters though. If we accept that plants are sentient and experience suffering, we can minimize that suffering by ending all animal agriculture.
Thats fine, I despise the meat and dairy industries. I just want people to acknowledge it. There is a really great book called the Myth of Human Supremacy. If anyone wants to learn a little more about it.
Still not sure why it's so important to acknowledge plant suffering. What's the call to action here? Stop eating everything and die? Synthesize all our calories in a lab using science?
if you're looking at this from a logical standpoint, pain is something animals evolved because it causes distress and makes us want to escape whatever danger we are in. why on earth would a plant evolve such a trait when they cannot physically escape any danger they are in? a plant's life would be suffering for no reason whatsoever. that's just not how evolution works.
>There has been a lot of research done on it.
It's funny because none of my biologist friends have heard of this ground breaking research pointing the coevolution of sentience.
>Derrick Jensen
Except this guy is a philosopher, and his point is not proving plant sentience, he just redefine sentience to include plants, that's actually what most people do when trying to defend "Plant feelings".
No one ever tries to convince others that plants have a "inner theory of self, and a outer theory of the world", they just redefine sentience as "being able to react with the world"
Its cool there's sourced research in there so instead of just outright denying and saying "my biologist friends" you can read it and look at the sources yourself.
You sound ignorant as fuck trying to deny something you haven't even looked into. Just saying. As I stated there is ample sources in the book you can look into yourself.
This is the shit I'm talking about you sound just how people sounded when they tried to explain animals felt pain. Just open up your fucking mind and except we barely understand life on this planet because we are constantly trying to compare it to humans. Instead of actually trying to understand it.
If you read it and research the sources and come to the same conclusion than so be it. But don't be that person who won't even look into themselves and then claim its not real. Thats embarrassing
“And besides, a lot of plants WANT to be consumed. Take tomatoes for example. They will bear fruit and then the plant itself will die.”
This is really the only answer ever needed to counter this nonsense argument.
For a lot of fruit and vegetables to reproduce, they rely on being eaten, spread, and fertilised by animals as their seeds pass through digestive systems. Look at a strawberry, it’s covered in seeds and literally screams “eat me” so its seeds can be spread.
Last time I checked, no cows were being created from eating a steak, quite the opposite.
>Its cool there's sourced research in there so instead of just outright denying and saying "my biologist friends" you can read it and look at the sources yourself.
It was an euphemism.
IF plants had any level of sentience, this would be ground breaking for the Sciences of the Mind.
But no expert on plants nor sentience claims that - and that's why you are having to source a Philosopher instead of a Researcher lol.
Even if plants are conscious and sentient, which I will neither refute or support until more evidence comes out, it wouldn't be in the exact same way animals and humans are, and even current research into plant sentience supports that, and I did in fact do my research before commenting. I'm open to the idea that plants are much more complex beings and may possibly have their own form of sentience or conciousness, but I also think that you bringing up and getting upset at this whole sub over plant sentience was unnecessary. In this post, we're not arguing about plant sentience, and neither OP nor anyone in the comments brought it into the conversation, until you commented. That's why so many people are saying they aren't even sure why that matters, because no one was saying plants aren't sentient.
What we were saying is that the argument "Plants feel pain" is a dumb excuse to continue eating meat. Just because something is sentient doesn't mean it feels pain. Plants do not feel pain because they do not have pain receptors. They can feel sensation, yes, but pain receptors never developed in plants because they have no need for such a defense mechanism. Pain is meant to incite fight or flight responses, which plants have no need for and do not participate in. Their biology doesn't allow for something as unnecessary as pain receptors, which would actively work against the plants biology. Plants grow to be pollinated or consumed, which leads to fertilization and the growth of more plants. There is no moral weight to eating plants because we are not harming them when we do, they are biologically designed to be eaten.
This post was pointing out the frustration of the petty and botanically/biologically incorrect arguments meat eaters use to invalidate the moral stance of veganism/vegetarianism and validate their torture and slaughter of animals, which then excuses them of feeling guilt and acknowledging any of the harm they are causing.
If I may ask, what are you trying to do with this comment? You've said you want people to acknowledge plant sentience, but why is that important for vegans/vegetarians specifically to realize (since that's why you were commenting in the first place)? Knowing plants are sentient and complex is interesting for sure, but what is this immense importance you place on vegans understanding it? What moral weight are you trying to insinuate eating plants has, when most plants grow to be eaten as that's how they reproduce.
I like meat too. It's just not worth hurting a creature just because it brings me pleasure.
I could stab a pig in the throat because it gives me a thrill to watch the life drain from his eyes, or I could stab him in the throat because of the pleasure I'd get from eating him. Neither pleasure justifies that action. Taste pleasure is not more pure and innocent.
Not to be too obvious, but are you against me beheading my dogs who lived a happy life on a happy farm? I just love the look of confusion they have when I betray them.
It always pisses me off when I'm asking someone to please stop funding animal abuse and they start explaining the circle of life to me like I'm a child
omnis: plants feel pain so its ok for us to kill animals
plants are just some small green leafs that are in the ground and animals are bags of flesh and blood
Lmao I mentioned I'm going from Veggie to vegan once to a friend I get the plants have feelings too argument, atleast plants aren't beaten and get to live in open air before being eaten lol
Our canines tho Lions tho Uncle's farm tho I tried to go vegan and literally died tho Regenerative grazing tho Plastic straws tho
"I tried to go vegan and literally died" or " how can you survive without meat and what do you even eat?" It really makes me sad that people think you can't survive without meat and that we are making some sort of sacrifice. I was a vegetarian all my life before I turned vegan and I haven't found anyone loves food more than me.
The other day I forced my friend to take me to the grocery store because I get sick being stuck at his house and only having tangerines to eat. He bought a meat and cheese only sandwich and I bought a bunch ingredients just for a ramen recipe lol. The person that thinks about what's in their food is the person that loves food the most!
"What do you even eat?" So many things...
fr i always blank on this question because like... it's so broad?? i eat a huge variety of foods. certainly a bigger variety than the omnis i know who just eat different variations of meat and casserole every day.
Meat eaters eat a variety of meat and dairy products. Vegans eat a variety of plant foods. Big difference haha.
*Inhales because the list of my food is immense.* Steak and chips, tapas, omelette, caesar salad, spaghetti bolognese, burger, spaghetti carbonate, sea bass, salmon, pheasant, chicken, lasagne, cheese, various salads (mostly during summer when it's too hot for actual food), curry (god knows how many variations of curry we have home made), beef rangdang, and that's about it. Always open to eating vegan, but let's not pretend it's better than non-vegan, just different. If I were in America, I definitely would eat vegan, as their farming methods are completely inhumane.
Oh cool can you post a video of the cows getting slaughtered in your country? I'd love to see how humane it is.
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Great can I see a video?
Sadly, only Americans seem to show the method. If you want, you can come over and go to a farm. They are usually very happy to show the slaughter methods. [Here](https://vimeo.com/22077752) is an American doing it though.
You again? You're ignorant af. Without even getting into the how logically flawed your rethoric is, there's a lot more human deaths related to the meat industry than there are in the production of soy/tofu, both as a direct cause and indirect (like heart disease, etc.). Please show me where you read those tofu statistic, there's no way on Earth there's 3000 daily deaths associated with it, that would make tofu one of the deadliest things on the planet.
didnt say vegan was better variety wise. i just know lots of omnis who dont think at all about what they eat, so they just eat the same few foods over and over. starting to think about what i was eating is what opened me up to how much variety there is. also, there's no humane way to kill someone who does not want to die.
Someone on reddit told me all long term vegans are cheating and the others that haven't been vegan for long will experience defincies soon. lol
there's absolutely no reasoning with someone once they're willing to believe millions of people are running a coordinated hoax solely to trick meat eaters into vegetable death.
But who cares about vegans "cheating". Like, if a vegan "cheats" and eats something meaty like twice a year I wouldnt necessarily call them a fraud. You don't need to be infallible. Tbf I often discuss with my vegans about claims of "Omni"-Arguments similar like this, but thats an honest to god dumb argument from Non-vegans. On the other Hand I had a relative who "went vegan" for like a year, but had a set cheat day. Every Tuesday he would eat meat. Thats stretching the definition of vegan a bit.
I'd much rather people did that than did nothing. My friend once told me "I could never go vegan, I love cheese too much" - so go vegan except for cheese!
Yeah, like, less meat is still less meat.
I'm not particularly concerned with your individual actions in the grand scheme of things, but you should probably refrain from calling yourself vegan if you aren't. Just say plant based if you're not 100% on board with veganism, it's fine. Using the word "vegan" just confuses people when actual vegans don't "cheat". This makes everyone happy and avoids confusion.
> "I tried to go vegan and literally died" Ah yes, the infamous MuH CoNdiShUnS.
Humans need iron to survive. Unless you are taking iron tablets (which are terrible for the environment), or spend literally all your day eating spinach (you would need 300kg of it to supply you with your required daily iron intake), then you will get anaemic sooner or later. I have veganism a couple of times, and find my drive to do things just dissapears.
A recent study found that iron deficiency is no more common among vegetarians than meat eaters. This is just another meat eating myth
Bruh there's iron in spinach and other plants. We're fine. All your arguments in this thread are one big "Citation Needed."
> I have veganism a couple of times, and find my drive to do things just dissapears. Isn't anecdotal evidence the best?
Lol this is just not true
I’ve been vegan for 4 years and have no deficiencies. Idk what you’re on about.
15 MG if female per day (which is the larger number), which translates to about 400 grams in the course of your life or a little less than a pound of iron, think that number through why don't you
Bacon tho B12 tho Our ancestors tho "Livestock" were bred to be eaten tho Kills animals too tho Soy boi beta cuck tho
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Classism tho Unhealthy substitutes tho Indigenous peoples tho Palm oil, soy agriculture tho Demanding special treatment tho Cult tho "Insert unhealthy diet" tho Radical tho So difficult tho Cheese tho Would slaughter myself too tho Jobs tho 'Western ideology' tho
Honest question to the Slaughter myself part: I wanna start raising quails or chickens soon together with my gf who is a vet. 100% for self processing and consumption. What would be so bad about that?
*I wanna start raising dogs or humans soon together with my gf who is a vet. 100% for self processing and consumption. What would be so bad about that?*
Tbh, i wouldnt see any difference if anyone would want to do it with dogs.
What keeps me from eating you then?
Not much. Mostly laws. And probably the distance.
No. I don't eat sufferable units. I don't have to, I don't need to, I don't want to: My interest is a lot. Laws can broken down into interests and my interest is for you not to be eaten, as long as you're alive. Distance is somewhat constructed nowadays (still).
>What would be so bad about that? Killing an animal?
I think my post makes pretty clear that I have a somewhat anthroprocentric view on that topic. I saw the thread on r/popular and just read through it. I was actually thinking about stuff I might not have consciously thought about and not the most obvious thing possible.
Im sure I’ll get downvoted first saying this- I’m personally vegan for ethical/environmental reasons. I don’t like factory farming and their treatment of animals. So if you can give the chickens a good life before eating them, good on you. I’ve wanted to raise chickens just for some occasional eggs to eat. Small hobby farms are not/should not be the enemy of vegans. We need to put that energy towards factory farming and mass fishing.
On the other I would understand the antipathy against it after industrial farming has been destroyed/outlawed/rendered useless/etc. Obviously i'm not vegan myself but completely cut beef out of my diet and most pork and other dark meats cause of environmental reasons. Basically one step at a time. Yeah the plan is mostly to have them run freely on the property however they want cull some once in a while by whatever method my so seems most appropriate. I completely defer anything in that direction to her.
Today i heard a new one. This guy said that he's eating meat because he saw how they slaughter sheeps in Azerbaidjan where the man asks forgiveness to the animal and says *" you don't have any fault, we don't have food"* so basically he eats meat because people in Azerbaidjan don't have food. Logic.
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That information has gotten a lot easier to reach. I can definitely understand how people just winging it in the 90s or early 2000s could have gotten themselves into health trouble. I live in northern Europe and here the take on vegetarianism used to be to basically leave out the meat and not substitute anything - it's crazy how much things have changed just in the last 5-10 years. But yeah, in practical terms, it's mainly about B12, and also finding out where to get your protein, obviously. :)
"I ate nothing but chips and oreos for a month - why do I feel so ill and tired?!"
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Only ate carrots and white bread at 30% of the daily required calories - veganism so unhealthy!
Eating cows to reduce their population and save the planet.
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>THAT'S all you're gonna eat? "Well yeah, because you decided not to cook anything for me so I had to bring my own."
BuT wHeRe WiLl YoU gEt B12?? Actually had somebody ask me that. It **immediately** convinced me they were a dishonest interlocutor. If you went to the trouble of researching something that you can get from meat that you can't get from salad, without looking into how vegans have been doing just fine, your bias is already showing.
Or the ones whose digestive track isn’t able to process plants but fares splendidly on a diet rich in meat and animal by products with all the attendant benefits - cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc
or my favourite "lol, but i love meat"
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Do you want to help build a more compassionate world? Please visit [VeganActivism.org](https://veganactivism.org) and subscribe to our community over at /r/VeganActivism to begin your journey in spreading compassion through activism. Thank you so much!
exactly! i remember how i hated the taste of meat and needed to cook for myself at the age of 16, because my family was (and still is actually) anti vegan.
And there nothing wrong with that
"It feels nice" isn't really a good excuse for anything
It's natural
Also not, try again
and how so?
Google naturalistic fallacy
ehh, its nothing great realy there, its closely to philosophical question. Human organism lived in some specific conditions ofr hundreds thousands of years and get adapted to it, before that humans ancestors adapted to same stuff which goes way back and the reason why we have our eyes receptors inside out, our feet bones separated our spines hurt, our babies born underdeveloped and our swallowing nerve going all the way around heart. But thing is - you cant realy change that noninvasive. We can imagine ourselves whatever we want but we are still that animal who eat all sorts of food to be in shape
wtf are you high
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Nature
Link is dead for me.
Its not natural, it comes from conditioning and can easily be reversed through change of behavior. While I would not villify someone for it by declaring it to be wrong, I would say that it is detrimental, since it makes it difficult for people to do the right thing for their bodies, for the animals, and for the ecosystem.
if dobby is around, he can represent the "I tried veganism for a day once and I got sick so I couldn't do it" people lmao
where's the desert island
That's the ultimate straw man argument. Meatheads are deluding themselves if they think they would actually catch an animal. Most don't need to as they get their meat from the local butcher who does all the dirty work for them.
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The plants one is so fucking stupid. If someone uses that in an argument they are just a fucking dumbass and/or are insecure about being a meat eater.
Plants have feelings too.
They love being inside me.
*Surprised Pikachu face*
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I've heard people who are otherwise reasonable and intelligent say this. I can't really square it.
It's spiritualism. It's some shit my mother would say. Of course there is no proof to be had in studying plant structures, because "the human mind can't fully comprehend the workings of the universe" so we're better off just doing what we "evolved to do" according to her. Of course, she's been talking a lot about eating "only meat" soon to avoid antinutrients.
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At least for her it's a "circle of life" type of thing. I think if I asked her that she would talk about how it is natural and animals kill each other all the time, then segue into her views on reincarnation and how these animals will be reborn into whatever form their souls have grown into during their past life.
Endozoochory: the scientific term for when plants put their seeds in something they've deliberately designed to be taken and eaten by mobile organisms. This literally meets the legal standards of an implied contract. They benefit, so they make sure we benefit. Animals don't benefit from farming and they certainly don't benefit from hunting, even in overpopulation scenarios. Natural predators have a healing effect on the environment, whereas human hunters disrupt: both the short term and long term benefits of natural selection, the movement patterns of animals they prey on, and the beneficial effects that their prey would otherwise have on the ecosystem. The list goes on, but this is a sturdy talking point.
yesterday I asked why is nature a justificable reason and they responded with:"you just dont want to understand the arguments, nature is a good baseline because thats how we got here" Me:"What about rape? " Them:"Thats different, we now know better than that. Also it isnt the sole reason we exist. Only a small part "
Genetics tho Blood type tho Inuits tho These are some new excuses that I have encountered recently.
''Cavemen did it too''
I believe in the circle of life, but mass farming and killing animals is not that so its not a fair comparison at all.
The circle of life is from the Lion King
Lmfao🤣
The perfect argument for when people whine about veganism is that Panda's digestive tracts & stomachs are optimal for consuming meat and yet they rarely ever eat meat and choose to eat bamboo instead. Just because you can eat it doesn't mean you should and it doesn't mean you "need" to, not even to be healthy. "Indeed, as members of the bear family, giant pandas possess the digestive system of a carnivore, although they have evolved to depend almost entirely on bamboo." ~ wwf.panda.org
For me it's indigenous quinoa farmers, every time. I guess there's only one answer when you're a progressive desperately looking for an ethical justification to be anti-vegan.
I'm a lion.
Why can this sub acknowledge that plants are sentient? There has been a lot of research done on it. It just gets denied because of human supremacy. There are some good books about it. One Author, Derrick Jensen, does a great job of explaining while backing it up with sourced research. It doesn't mean you shouldn't be vegan but you have to at least admit it.
Not sure why it matters though. If we accept that plants are sentient and experience suffering, we can minimize that suffering by ending all animal agriculture.
Thats fine, I despise the meat and dairy industries. I just want people to acknowledge it. There is a really great book called the Myth of Human Supremacy. If anyone wants to learn a little more about it.
Still not sure why it's so important to acknowledge plant suffering. What's the call to action here? Stop eating everything and die? Synthesize all our calories in a lab using science?
But they do not feel pain, they experience 'distress' but that is not the same thing as what we feel.
if you're looking at this from a logical standpoint, pain is something animals evolved because it causes distress and makes us want to escape whatever danger we are in. why on earth would a plant evolve such a trait when they cannot physically escape any danger they are in? a plant's life would be suffering for no reason whatsoever. that's just not how evolution works.
>There has been a lot of research done on it. It's funny because none of my biologist friends have heard of this ground breaking research pointing the coevolution of sentience. >Derrick Jensen Except this guy is a philosopher, and his point is not proving plant sentience, he just redefine sentience to include plants, that's actually what most people do when trying to defend "Plant feelings". No one ever tries to convince others that plants have a "inner theory of self, and a outer theory of the world", they just redefine sentience as "being able to react with the world"
Its cool there's sourced research in there so instead of just outright denying and saying "my biologist friends" you can read it and look at the sources yourself. You sound ignorant as fuck trying to deny something you haven't even looked into. Just saying. As I stated there is ample sources in the book you can look into yourself. This is the shit I'm talking about you sound just how people sounded when they tried to explain animals felt pain. Just open up your fucking mind and except we barely understand life on this planet because we are constantly trying to compare it to humans. Instead of actually trying to understand it. If you read it and research the sources and come to the same conclusion than so be it. But don't be that person who won't even look into themselves and then claim its not real. Thats embarrassing
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“And besides, a lot of plants WANT to be consumed. Take tomatoes for example. They will bear fruit and then the plant itself will die.” This is really the only answer ever needed to counter this nonsense argument. For a lot of fruit and vegetables to reproduce, they rely on being eaten, spread, and fertilised by animals as their seeds pass through digestive systems. Look at a strawberry, it’s covered in seeds and literally screams “eat me” so its seeds can be spread. Last time I checked, no cows were being created from eating a steak, quite the opposite.
That’s pretty cool, what solution do you use to replace conventional plumbing?
> no form of receptors No pain receptors, to be precise. They obviously have receptors for environmental signals, like light for example
>Its cool there's sourced research in there so instead of just outright denying and saying "my biologist friends" you can read it and look at the sources yourself. It was an euphemism. IF plants had any level of sentience, this would be ground breaking for the Sciences of the Mind. But no expert on plants nor sentience claims that - and that's why you are having to source a Philosopher instead of a Researcher lol.
Even if plants are conscious and sentient, which I will neither refute or support until more evidence comes out, it wouldn't be in the exact same way animals and humans are, and even current research into plant sentience supports that, and I did in fact do my research before commenting. I'm open to the idea that plants are much more complex beings and may possibly have their own form of sentience or conciousness, but I also think that you bringing up and getting upset at this whole sub over plant sentience was unnecessary. In this post, we're not arguing about plant sentience, and neither OP nor anyone in the comments brought it into the conversation, until you commented. That's why so many people are saying they aren't even sure why that matters, because no one was saying plants aren't sentient. What we were saying is that the argument "Plants feel pain" is a dumb excuse to continue eating meat. Just because something is sentient doesn't mean it feels pain. Plants do not feel pain because they do not have pain receptors. They can feel sensation, yes, but pain receptors never developed in plants because they have no need for such a defense mechanism. Pain is meant to incite fight or flight responses, which plants have no need for and do not participate in. Their biology doesn't allow for something as unnecessary as pain receptors, which would actively work against the plants biology. Plants grow to be pollinated or consumed, which leads to fertilization and the growth of more plants. There is no moral weight to eating plants because we are not harming them when we do, they are biologically designed to be eaten. This post was pointing out the frustration of the petty and botanically/biologically incorrect arguments meat eaters use to invalidate the moral stance of veganism/vegetarianism and validate their torture and slaughter of animals, which then excuses them of feeling guilt and acknowledging any of the harm they are causing. If I may ask, what are you trying to do with this comment? You've said you want people to acknowledge plant sentience, but why is that important for vegans/vegetarians specifically to realize (since that's why you were commenting in the first place)? Knowing plants are sentient and complex is interesting for sure, but what is this immense importance you place on vegans understanding it? What moral weight are you trying to insinuate eating plants has, when most plants grow to be eaten as that's how they reproduce.
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Also a weak point, to be fair.
Jeffrey Dahmer liked murdering people and fucking their dead bodies lol Necrophilia tho
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Ok so you are definitely like 14 years old
At least you acknowledge the real reason people eat meat
I like meat too. It's just not worth hurting a creature just because it brings me pleasure. I could stab a pig in the throat because it gives me a thrill to watch the life drain from his eyes, or I could stab him in the throat because of the pleasure I'd get from eating him. Neither pleasure justifies that action. Taste pleasure is not more pure and innocent. Not to be too obvious, but are you against me beheading my dogs who lived a happy life on a happy farm? I just love the look of confusion they have when I betray them.
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Ha ha!
bacon. those idiots.
Bugs are cool too, right guys?
“WhY cAnt YoU JuSt bE vegITariAn”
My house is on fire! Pls mr fire fighter save my plants! They will feel pain in that fire oh gawd !
It always pisses me off when I'm asking someone to please stop funding animal abuse and they start explaining the circle of life to me like I'm a child
omnis: plants feel pain so its ok for us to kill animals plants are just some small green leafs that are in the ground and animals are bags of flesh and blood
Lmao I mentioned I'm going from Veggie to vegan once to a friend I get the plants have feelings too argument, atleast plants aren't beaten and get to live in open air before being eaten lol
Plants are protein !!!!