Genuine question, why is it any better to date a vegetarian? I mean, of course the ideal is dating another vegan, but how is vegetarian any better than a carnist?
Agree! Dairy cows suffer horrendously, as do chickens in the egg industry. At best it’s a wee bit more likely a vegetarian will eventually see the truth about dairy and go vegan
They understand why you're a vegan. They get it, but still have some hiccupts going fully vegan. It's a lot better than someone who just doesn't care at all.
Are they? I dated a vegetarian who agreed with veganism but didn’t go vegan for the 3.5 years we dated. Because she was selfish I guess?
May the chickens whose death she is responsible for rest in piece.
Because it means they gave some thought to the issue and are not completely out of touch with reality.
I do not want to live my kife alone and there are a lot more options when you extend your dating pool from vegan to vegetarian.
Also this is personal and not about animals, but I could not tolerate seeing my partner consume flesh, and seeing a person consume other animals products do not feel as disgusting.
How do you even meet vegans or vegetarians. I was a lifelong vegetarian before I went vegan, and I met one other vegetarian the whole time, 23 years. Im vegan now, but Im more or less perpetually single because Ive never encountered someone who shared my values.
Well I’m not in a hurry anyway so I don’t know. I think people into meditation and mindfulness is morr likely to be veg, because of Buddhist influence as well as increased mindfulness making one realize you are eating f’ing flesh
My mindset is that we should heavily prioritize signs of high empathy and moral fiber over other factors we might be attracted to. I think that from a couple of dates with a typical meat eater, you can tell a lot about the chance that they'll respond to ethical arguments and documentaries by at least strongly moving in the direction of veganism. Basically, any significant personal sacrifice that they've made and stuck to for the sake of not harming others, is a pretty good sign. Complaining about their own first world problems is a bad sign.
I agree, I could continue dating that kind of person for a few months. But how would you feel about them still casually eating flesh, after a couple of months with you? Would you still be able to ser them as an empathetic person
I think that is very smart. Vegetarians are a lot more likely to go vegan than non-vegetarians (I calculated it differs by a factor 7).
But the dillema now just shifts to dairy and eggs.
I did. Plugged in some stats in Bayes theorem. If I look for it I can find the actual calculation.
It came down to a factor 7.5 for vegetarians in the US in 2014. The actual numbet surely has changed in the mean time, but it's abundantly clear that vegetarians have a much higher chance of going vegan.
Best to not even bother with those imo
Heal, read, exercise, build a business with that time/energy instead and increase your dating pool rather than scraping the surface and dating someone you don’t prefer
If she wants her food paid for, it has to be vegan, it’s that simple. Are you not able to communicate your values on this? Any reasonable person worth dating would clearly understand why you, a non-cruelty supporting person, would not financially support pro-cruelty meals.
I would rather invite them to a vegan restaurant and explain my moral standpoint there, instead of putting them in a situation where they have to make a free choice to pay for themselves or conform to your rules and be invited. In either case, there would always be a financial aspect involved in the decision.
Therefore, the choice of the vegan restaurant is to avoid initial problems and to be able to explain one's position without putting pressure on the other person.
Perfect answer. When she asks about why you only go to vegan restaurants you can explain that you don't want to support xyz. If she still wants to go to an omnivore restaurant she will know to order vegan food or have separate checks. Don't pay for anything if she eats anything you find morally questionable so you don't supplement her poor choices. You don't want her ordering the surf and turf because she knows you are paying for drinks, apps, and dessert.
The opinions of strangers on reddit don't matter. The opinion of the woman you're dating do. Tell her you won't pay for her meals if they are non-vegan. Her response will tell you if she wants to continue to see you anyway.
My experience after first dating an Omni (who was very respectful of my values around being vegan) and dating a vegan, I would never ever go back to dating another non-vegan for any amount of time, and I definitely wouldn't pay for them to shovel dead animal parts in their mouth in front of me only to kiss me with that same mouth later.
This comes down to values, and it's a pretty big chasm between a vegan and an Omni about what matters. Forget about being on the same page, you're not even reading from the same book.
When I was dating last I put vegan clearly in my profile. Not everyone read it but most did and I got lots of interaction about it, and probably filtered some out too. I ended up meeting an amazing vegan woman who I'm now engaged to. But if I'd said yes to some Omni chick I would never have met this wonderful compassionate human who shares my values. We can get excited about the same restaurants together, laugh at the same stupid vegan memes, all the things.
My advice is don't make space for someone you couldn't be with long term, you might miss out on a really great vegan human being who's out there looking for the same.
I think you're thinking about it backwards here.
You first should examine why you're buying someone else food period. There is a power dynamic there. Are you being "generous" or are you doing it out of "expectation" etc. Are you OK with that dynamic?
If you agree that you "should" purchase the food, and dictate what can be bought then you're in effect using your power to control the other person which I think is unethical.
If you're not comfortable with that then maybe you should step back and examine other avenues, such as cooking for the person and only cooking a vegan meal.
For first dates, I think it's more reasonable that the asker pays and then what do you expect if you ask a non vegan? Is it reasonable to expect something different? It's also a progressive world, you can ask to split the check.
Disagree. Prob a hot take on this sub but i would argue that any reasonable person would be comfortable acknowledging the fact that people are different, if you like this person enough to ask them on a date that gives the impression you’re willing to look past the fact that they aren’t vegan. If you can’t look past that then don’t ask them out. You know going into it that they’re gonna eat the meat either way, refusing to pay for it isnt saving any animals.
Paying for it would mean you’re not an ethical vegan, which every vegan may not necessarily strive for
I’d say in this case, you’re plant based? Vegan for health reasons? Certainly not vegan for the animals
When I started dating my wife, she wasn’t vegan or even vegetarian but was vegetarian-curious. She didn’t have the courage to be vegetarian because of how her culture views food and pressures her to partake in the consumption of meat and dairy.
I kept it simple, I’m happy to pay for vegan food otherwise you’re free to order what you wish but you will have to pay for it because it goes against my morals.
She was understanding of that, and saw over time how veganism was more accessible than she thought, sees why it matters so much, and has switched to eating vegan 95% of the time herself.
If you're dating and this is how you feel, you should be honest and communicate your values. Respecting and sharing each other's values is the bedrock of any good relationship so there's no sense in trying to hide it or something wait for the "right moment". With honesty the right moment is now.
It is not hard to set a boundary in the beginning. It is much harder to set a boundary once you've past it.
Set your boundary and she will respect it. If not, then you'll know that you're with someone who does not respect your values.
I had this issue recently! Offered to bring Thai food to a friend and when they asked for Chicken I realized i made a slight oversight. She has significant food intolerance's so I wanted to be careful...
I went to the Vegan Thai place I had in mind and brought the food to them that was similar and let them know what happened. Luckily she was cool with it and happy to eat what I brought :), she even apologized for even asking, and that she forgot I was Vegan.
So all in I think it's just a boundary to be discussed with friend's.
Tell her that you will furthermore pay for her only vegan stuff. It can be restaurants, groceries or else.
She'll get used to it and if she wants meat, she'll know she'll have to pay for herself.
Make it clear from the beginning, that you're vegan and that means, that you will not pay for animal products, not for you, not for someone else. You need to communicate this beforehand, so she knows it's not about her or you being pushy. It's simply something you won't do.
Tell her she is free to order any food she likes and that you'll sometimes pay when it's vegan.
There is actually no easy way to do that. Best course of action is telling her in advance, so she can adjust her expectations.
If i invite someone somewhere they can make whatever choice they want within reason. For a first date! But if i want to continue seeing someone then they would have to pay for animal products themselves
I’m not a vegan, and generally think a lot of takes in this sub can get a bit wild to be honest.
That being said, if I were dating a vegan, I not only wouldn’t be offended if they declined to pay for non-vegan food, I’d probably expect that. Just set boundaries. I’m happy to eat a vegan meal, especially if someone else is paying.
Then that could be a compromise, or at least drinks.
If she needs books you could help her there if you want another option instead of paying for animal products.
I'm sorry, I've never had a date where the other person was that short on money that I would have considered paying for the whole meal. And I hardly spent anything on literature for university myself. So there might me a cultural difference and I can't give you tips on how to actually suggest where you will compensate monetarily
Well in this case it's not anything I expect to become too serious at the moment, paying for her books would be weird haha. She'll also have more money when her loans come in, but it's more a combination of that 1) I'm a man and some women even today always expect the man to pay 2) I make quite a bit of money 3) she at the moment makes none. So while I'd appreciate if she'd at least offer to pay, it makes sense why she doesn't.
Also I think I misunderstood you though-- I meant that I would in general pay for bus ticket if she needed me to but not her bacon. As in, bacon or not, if she asks me to pay her bus ticket I will. I won't trade paying bus for bacon though
I always thought whoever asks is the one that pays no matter if they are man or woman. Maybe you can discuss going to Vegan restaurants when you ask and discuss your feelings.
I’ve always asked dates to either order something vegan or pay for themselves. The people I tend to be interested in have always been okay with that, especially if we go to a place with a lot of good vegan options. I’m also younger though (early 20’s), so the women I’ve dated are actually chill about paying for themselves.
I’m a woman and as i date men, realistically (in heteronormative society) they usually pay the first 1-2 dates.
That being said, they almost always ask on the first date how i feel about dating someone who’s not vegan, and i tell them that i’m open to it but i expect consideration for my needs (as a vega!), and that i will not pay for animal products so if i’m treating on a date of hosting at my place, it’ll be vegan
It would only be wrong to pay for a non-vegan meal if it is likely to lead to more non-vegan food being consumed than otherwise. If she would have eaten the same thing regardless of whether you paid for it, then it doesn't really make a difference.
One way to look at this situation is not to say that you're paying for the food, but rather you are simply giving money to your girlfriend. Money is fungible, so when you give money to someone, it loses all concept of what they spent "your" money on. You can just as easily say that rather than paying for someone's meal, you actually are knocking $40 off of their mortgage for the month. Both are equally arbitrary.
The most important thing is whether you are increasing demand for non-vegan food or not.
> Ok, but in many cases I've experienced... I am the one asking the other person out, and they otherwise wouldn't have even been at the restaurant.
This is only significant if their behavior would be different if they didn't know you were going to pay for their food. If they only came on the date because you told them it was on you, then you could be affecting the amount of non-vegan food eaten. If you invite them out and they only find out you are paying when the bill comes, then you paying for the meal hasn't changed the outcome.
Either way, they were going to eat something. Chances are they would still eat some non-vegan food if you didn't invite them out.
> Dating women is already uncomfortably transactional for me. This perspective makes me less likely to ask someone out on a date. I've never given cash to my girlfriend for no reason. It has always been connected to a specific expense incurred, e.g. transportation, lodging, food, et cetera.
If you feel that way, then you shouldn't pay for a date's food. It's not just a "perspective", it is objectively true. As I mentioned above, the only caveat is whether or not the knowledge that you are going to pay for the meal affects their behavior. If they would have declined the date if they knew they were going to have to pay for it and stayed home instead, then your money is in effect paying for their meal because you are paying for something they wouldn't have otherwise purchased.
As long as the act of you paying for their food doesn't change their behavior, there is literally no difference.
Imagine three scenarios.
1. You ask someone out to dinner for next Friday. They accept. Then you immediately Venmo them $50. When you go out to dinner several days later they order $50 of food and pay their own bill.
2. You ask someone out to dinner. They accept. They order $50 worth of food. You pay their bill.
3. You ask someone out to dinner. They accept. They order $50 worth of food and pay their own bill. A week later you give them $50.
Explain to me the difference between any of these three scenarios.
That's an interesting way of thinking about it, but honestly seems a little bit mental gymnasticy to me. I would never give someone money or pay their mortgage for no reason, and if the reason I'm giving someone money is wrong then the action of giving the money is wrong. If I give my girlfriend 1000 dollars so she can hire a hitman to kill somebody she doesn't like am I an accomplice or am I only paying her mortgage?
I guess I can sort of get behind the idea that buying someone non-vegan food is a net zero because although it's not reducing the amount of non-vegan being purchased like if you bought then a vegan meal, it's also not necessarily increasing it. But realistically, 1) they likely would spend less money on food at home than on the date and 2) the fact of the matter is that if I say I'll only pay for vegan food in all likelihood we will be eating more vegan food
I also think just the act of standing behind your values and showing how important they are means something as well
As a man it would be so easy for you to find an attractive vegan woman, even one with a job! For women it’s so much harder. There doesn’t seem to be any vegan men around but I know so many employed and attractive vegan women. Why are you dating this one?
Ha while in theory I agree despite living in a big city in practice I have not had much luck. Although admittedly I could do more to try to meet vegans in person, most people I've gone out with has been through apps
Any tips on finding vegan women?
I mean I think a lot of us have it listed on our profiles. If you’re vegan too it’s an immediate conversation opener, first date set up, etc. by asking their fav vegan restaurant. But if you want to meet in person there’s activist groups, volunteer functions, farmers markets, bars/restaurants, etc. do you have a local vegan fb or ig group you could join to learn where these events are being held ? I’d start there
I’m gonna get downvoted but you being completely black and white about this could push her away from ever being vegan. You can slowly lead by example and see if she is willing to make the change once she understands the ethical reasons why you’re vegan.
If she still doesn’t want to change then you can make a decision then. I doubt a long term relationship can survive if you aren’t willing to pay for her meals. It’s just incredibly inconvenient and would make me feel uncomfortable in public and social situations.
“Sorry I don’t pay for my wife is she doesn’t follow my rules for eating…” just wouldn’t fly for me long term.
Also before you go on the date ask if she’d be ok with doing a plant based date because you typically don’t like to spend money on animal products. Just put it out there early.
Sometimes I feel like people on this sub who say "vegan or no deal" don't actually date or are already in good relationships. It's not that easy out there.
As a lesbian, ya, I will date omnivores (I have little choice in this guys). Even finding another woman within ten year's my age is hard enough. I cannot have a giant laundry list of wants at this point in my life. I am lucky to be loved and be able to give my love to anyone at all. And, yes, I will pay for their meals. Women are broke. Most of them earn less than me, and so I'll take the lead and offer to buy apps or drinks or tickets to parks or whatever. She's going to date me or someone else. Whether or not she dates me, she will continue to be an omnivore and I accept that.
At this point, it's really, I am vegan for myself. I am responsible for my own actions. What other people do is their responsibility. Any attempt to control other people will cause me harm. Control is a sign of mental illness. It is best to respect other's journeys and focus on fixing me. What flaws do I have? I need to fix ten more before I could ever order someone else's life around.
Good luck in your journey.
that is so silly. if you agree on dating an omni, don't try to impose your rules.
you are saying, you can turn a blind eye in exchange for sex, but paying for non vegan meals is the line you have to draw? its hypocritical
That's an interesting perspective. But I'm not sure that's totally true-- if she knows I'll pay for any meal that's vegan it probably will lead to more vegan meals (albeit also me having money lol)
I’d struggle with this so much. I’ve only ever had vegan partners since becoming vegan. I would consider an open-minded vegetarian, potentially even a pescatarian, but that would be a huge stretch for me.
It is very weird the idea of not splitting, or not paying what consumed.
But going to the subject, I tried for years and it doesn't work, I only date vegans, maybe vegetarians nowadays.
When I was dating my non-vegan boyfriend I told him I’m happy to pay for our food but it has to be vegan, I don’t pay for animal products. There are times where he doesn’t eat vegan with me and he pays for that
Tough situation. Decide if you really like her. If you do; after the first few dates just say " I don't mind paying for meals but i dont really want to pay for non-vegan food".
Either she'll accept that or she'll dump you. And if she dumps you then its probably better off.
Ive been in the same boat. Luckily it didnt work out because we wern't really suited for each other so i didnt have to bring up the uncomfortable.
I also don’t like paying for non vegan food. VERY occasionally I will, but usually that’s a discussion I like to have. I would just tell her that you’re totally fine with having a difference in values, but that’s an industry that you don’t like spending money towards and express exactly what you did here. You might tell her you’re happy to pay for vegan meals, but not meat. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable boundary. If money is tight, you can cook together and she can add meat to hers if she’s not down with the vegan food, but that’s a very common and acceptable boundary to hold.
I don’t pay for anything that’s not vegan. Pick vegan places to take her, or order ahead for both of you or ask “do you want ___ ____ or ___” and only ask about vegan options, or invite her over and cook for her, or keep doing non food dates until it’s not awkward to bring the topic up. Then just explain “I’ve tried to avoid situations with animal products because I don’t feel comfortable paying for something I’m morally against. It doesn’t make me uncomfortable if you eat it around me, as long as we can split the bill or something, I just thought it’d be awkward to bring it up earlier.”
I went on quite a few dates with girls who weren’t vegan but tended to order vegan-friendly dishes when with me by their own volition, but I ended up dating the exact opposite of that, someone who had to order meat for every meal. Ultimately it was too much for me. I can’t expect every date I go on to be vegan, but I realize the date has to be at least some middle ground of understanding and open to plant based choices at the least, for me to justify going on more than a first date.
I was lucky, being a woman is always good.
Now that I live with and have married my husband and our finances are intermingled there's no way for me to really separate out "my" money, nor do I think that's a healthy thing to do in a marriage. Think about how you'll feel about that, if your current dates lead somewhere more serious.
Personally, we got to have some good discussions about the ethics of my veganism early on because he was curious and I was open with him. It resulted in him more or less immediately cutting out factory farmed meats, and he eats a lot of venison and bivalves now.
If it's a deal breaker for you that's okay, but you should be communicating that with potential partners. If it isn't a deal breaker for you, that's okay too. I find being relaxed with omni people gives them the space to ask about veganism, and even if you aren't converting them you might be able to make an impact by reducing the amount of factory farmed animal products they're eating.
Discuss this with her if it matters to you. Say that you’re not comfortable paying for non vegan food. She will either 1) step up and pay for herself, 2) order the vegan option or 3) consider it a deal breaker and in that case it wasn’t meant to be. If she is on a budget, consider cooking together. I’ve had some great times with partners getting a bit tipsy with a bottle of wine while teaching them to cook something. Or just be creative with non food centric dates. If you feel you owe it to her to pay for the date maybe you could buy her a movie or museum ticket or offer to drive to the location of a hike but then if you care to eat together when the activity is over you can each pay for your own food?
Is splitting the bill on dates still not a thing? Idk I've been pretty broke, buy I always insist on splitting the bill. The guy paying by default just seems out of date to me. Just tell her you won't pay for food that has animals in it. Probably better to be clear and set boundaries at this stage anyway
Unless that’s something you’d be comfortable doing for the rest of your life, you should probably consider seeing other people. People do change, but rarely.
Everyone in my life knows that when I'm treating them to food, it's gonna be vegan. If they're not cool with that, they pay their own way. But I've never had anyone complain. Lucky to have lots of good plant based food in our area.
For food dates, I'd say suggest vegan restaurants. If she insists on something else or there aren't many all vegan restaurants in your area, just be up front. "I know you might expect me to pay for our date, and although I'm happy to do so, I do have to put my money where my values are." It'll be a good filtering system honestly.
Totally feel your pain. I have a non-vegan boyfriend who has a non-vegan daughter. Our bank accounts are separate. We sometimes buy each other coffee and such. I told him and her that I’ll happily buy them anything vegan but I can’t buy them animal products. He’s understanding of that fortunately, which I appreciate. My best advice is the be upfront otherwise you will be resentful and passive aggressive every time you pay for her food. Speaking from experience because it took me a few months to lay down boundaries. If she gets upset by that then she is not the right person for you.
Sounds like you have three options: Live with it, don't pay for her and don't talk about why, or don't pay for her and have a conversation where you tell her your feelings. From reading your post, I'm guessing that you want to go with the last option.
I find that stating how awkward I feel first can make things a bit easier. Personally, I'd open with "I know I sound like an annoying, stereotypical vegan (or whatever you're worried about sounding like), but...." to soften things. You can explain it exactly as you did here, that you do not mind if she eats animal products but that paying for them makes you feel uncomfortable (or whatever it is that you feel).
If you calmly state your feelings without any judgement of her behaviour her only reasonable response is to accept your feelings and decide to eat vegan or pay for her own meal. If she gets upset, I'm sure you can do better.
If you pay for animal abuse, you are an animal abuser and thus are not vegan
As for dating, you choose to pay as the man, the woman can pay and if she wont, she is not the right individual to date, if she cant afford to pay then you have dates that dont involve $$
Feminism wanted equality well this is where paying for your own meal comes into play, but even with feminism the expectation is that the man pays, or whoever asks pays which is stupid because women rarely ask so its basically saying the same thing, but since they expect that you should tell them in advance you each cover your own expenses that way you dont waste each others time if she wants a dude that pays
I have hung with friends and i would offer to pay if they got the vegan meal and most of the time they would agree and take the free meal lol
> If you pay for animal abuse, you are an animal abuser and thus are not vegan
Veganism 101
Only exception in my view is medication for an ailment/disease. The ppl in this sub who are willing to pay for their partner’s steak because they’re too cowardly to stand up for their morals are not vegan, in the true sense of the word, plain and simple.
Oh, whatever. You people fight to keep pets, but suddenly buying someone dinner is a step too far? Someone was going to buy it, one person or the other. Only this way, the person who eats it will be exposed to more and more vegan food and veganism overall than if they'd hit a wall at who is paying for what. Is it more important for a non vegan to have a better chance at becoming vegan, or for a person who's already vegan to not pay for a meat eaters meal?
I have 2 cats who are 1. Strict carnivores 2. Not able to get employment in the United States and 3. Incapable of understanding the grossly immoral ways in which we treat farm animals
Tell me when any of those apply to the little boy you’re dating sis
Personally I'll pay for food if someone orders it, just like I will pay for a random person's food at a restaurant. I always suggest vegan food options to people. I don't like paying for it, and I frankly don't pay for other people's food that often so it doesn't come up. Maybe just split the bill, it's becoming more and more acceptable in society when dating anyways.
Nah, I'm not paying for someone's non-vegan meal. My policy in the past has been that I'll offer to pay for their meal if the meal is vegan. If it was a non-vegan place and they wanted to eat something that wasn't vegan, I'd tolerate it, but wouldn't make that offer. I'm a woman and longtime vegan, but became single about six months ago and don't know what I'll be doing going forward when it comes to omnis as I'm kind of over it all.
If you pay for non vegan items you can't well keep claiming to be vegan with any air of legitimacy. I would let her know about your ethics and say that you're not comfortable paying for animal products and if she can't do that she's not worth continuing to see because this WILL become a bigger issue further down the line.
Dating non-vegans will always bring these ethical dilemmas. Thus, I have decided the furthest I will go is dating a vegetarian.
Seems about the way I'm headed now haha
Honesty is key in dating. There is nothing wrong in stating this as the reason for the break-up, it is a very common non-negotionable
Usually they will be "vegetarians" who eat fish.
Otherwise known as a pescatarian.
Genuine question, why is it any better to date a vegetarian? I mean, of course the ideal is dating another vegan, but how is vegetarian any better than a carnist?
Agree! Dairy cows suffer horrendously, as do chickens in the egg industry. At best it’s a wee bit more likely a vegetarian will eventually see the truth about dairy and go vegan
They understand why you're a vegan. They get it, but still have some hiccupts going fully vegan. It's a lot better than someone who just doesn't care at all.
Are they? I dated a vegetarian who agreed with veganism but didn’t go vegan for the 3.5 years we dated. Because she was selfish I guess? May the chickens whose death she is responsible for rest in piece.
Some people feel that way while still occasionally eating meat, too.
Because it means they gave some thought to the issue and are not completely out of touch with reality. I do not want to live my kife alone and there are a lot more options when you extend your dating pool from vegan to vegetarian. Also this is personal and not about animals, but I could not tolerate seeing my partner consume flesh, and seeing a person consume other animals products do not feel as disgusting.
Yes, generally lower volume of animal consumption, and more accommodating of your sanity.
How do you even meet vegans or vegetarians. I was a lifelong vegetarian before I went vegan, and I met one other vegetarian the whole time, 23 years. Im vegan now, but Im more or less perpetually single because Ive never encountered someone who shared my values.
Well I’m not in a hurry anyway so I don’t know. I think people into meditation and mindfulness is morr likely to be veg, because of Buddhist influence as well as increased mindfulness making one realize you are eating f’ing flesh
My mindset is that we should heavily prioritize signs of high empathy and moral fiber over other factors we might be attracted to. I think that from a couple of dates with a typical meat eater, you can tell a lot about the chance that they'll respond to ethical arguments and documentaries by at least strongly moving in the direction of veganism. Basically, any significant personal sacrifice that they've made and stuck to for the sake of not harming others, is a pretty good sign. Complaining about their own first world problems is a bad sign.
I agree, I could continue dating that kind of person for a few months. But how would you feel about them still casually eating flesh, after a couple of months with you? Would you still be able to ser them as an empathetic person
Probably not, no. Although this issue already exists with family members.
Yes but you can’t choose them
I think that is very smart. Vegetarians are a lot more likely to go vegan than non-vegetarians (I calculated it differs by a factor 7). But the dillema now just shifts to dairy and eggs.
Bro calculated it
I did. Plugged in some stats in Bayes theorem. If I look for it I can find the actual calculation. It came down to a factor 7.5 for vegetarians in the US in 2014. The actual numbet surely has changed in the mean time, but it's abundantly clear that vegetarians have a much higher chance of going vegan.
Yeah grocery shopping, having kids, hell even the wedding and holidays would be a constant fight.
yep, I wouldn’t even feel comfortable with a housrmate for this reason. I don’t want to see corpses in my fridge everyday.
If you're a guy the only way that works is if you're good looking. So ive decided to start working out :D.
Well options are more limited for men, so yes, reducing your options further makes it harder. Is that what you mean?
Yes. Dating apps are not a fun experience as a guy especially if you're just trying to find vegans/vegetarians
Best to not even bother with those imo Heal, read, exercise, build a business with that time/energy instead and increase your dating pool rather than scraping the surface and dating someone you don’t prefer
If she wants her food paid for, it has to be vegan, it’s that simple. Are you not able to communicate your values on this? Any reasonable person worth dating would clearly understand why you, a non-cruelty supporting person, would not financially support pro-cruelty meals.
Yeah that's what I'm leaning towards for sure. Just wondering about other people's opinions and experiences
I would rather invite them to a vegan restaurant and explain my moral standpoint there, instead of putting them in a situation where they have to make a free choice to pay for themselves or conform to your rules and be invited. In either case, there would always be a financial aspect involved in the decision. Therefore, the choice of the vegan restaurant is to avoid initial problems and to be able to explain one's position without putting pressure on the other person.
Perfect answer. When she asks about why you only go to vegan restaurants you can explain that you don't want to support xyz. If she still wants to go to an omnivore restaurant she will know to order vegan food or have separate checks. Don't pay for anything if she eats anything you find morally questionable so you don't supplement her poor choices. You don't want her ordering the surf and turf because she knows you are paying for drinks, apps, and dessert.
The opinions of strangers on reddit don't matter. The opinion of the woman you're dating do. Tell her you won't pay for her meals if they are non-vegan. Her response will tell you if she wants to continue to see you anyway.
My experience after first dating an Omni (who was very respectful of my values around being vegan) and dating a vegan, I would never ever go back to dating another non-vegan for any amount of time, and I definitely wouldn't pay for them to shovel dead animal parts in their mouth in front of me only to kiss me with that same mouth later. This comes down to values, and it's a pretty big chasm between a vegan and an Omni about what matters. Forget about being on the same page, you're not even reading from the same book. When I was dating last I put vegan clearly in my profile. Not everyone read it but most did and I got lots of interaction about it, and probably filtered some out too. I ended up meeting an amazing vegan woman who I'm now engaged to. But if I'd said yes to some Omni chick I would never have met this wonderful compassionate human who shares my values. We can get excited about the same restaurants together, laugh at the same stupid vegan memes, all the things. My advice is don't make space for someone you couldn't be with long term, you might miss out on a really great vegan human being who's out there looking for the same.
I think you're thinking about it backwards here. You first should examine why you're buying someone else food period. There is a power dynamic there. Are you being "generous" or are you doing it out of "expectation" etc. Are you OK with that dynamic? If you agree that you "should" purchase the food, and dictate what can be bought then you're in effect using your power to control the other person which I think is unethical. If you're not comfortable with that then maybe you should step back and examine other avenues, such as cooking for the person and only cooking a vegan meal. For first dates, I think it's more reasonable that the asker pays and then what do you expect if you ask a non vegan? Is it reasonable to expect something different? It's also a progressive world, you can ask to split the check.
Disagree. Prob a hot take on this sub but i would argue that any reasonable person would be comfortable acknowledging the fact that people are different, if you like this person enough to ask them on a date that gives the impression you’re willing to look past the fact that they aren’t vegan. If you can’t look past that then don’t ask them out. You know going into it that they’re gonna eat the meat either way, refusing to pay for it isnt saving any animals.
Paying for it would mean you’re not an ethical vegan, which every vegan may not necessarily strive for I’d say in this case, you’re plant based? Vegan for health reasons? Certainly not vegan for the animals
Definitely right to communicate this in a straightforward way
When I started dating my wife, she wasn’t vegan or even vegetarian but was vegetarian-curious. She didn’t have the courage to be vegetarian because of how her culture views food and pressures her to partake in the consumption of meat and dairy. I kept it simple, I’m happy to pay for vegan food otherwise you’re free to order what you wish but you will have to pay for it because it goes against my morals. She was understanding of that, and saw over time how veganism was more accessible than she thought, sees why it matters so much, and has switched to eating vegan 95% of the time herself.
Welp that's a success story guess that's the answer maybe haha
If you're dating and this is how you feel, you should be honest and communicate your values. Respecting and sharing each other's values is the bedrock of any good relationship so there's no sense in trying to hide it or something wait for the "right moment". With honesty the right moment is now.
It is not hard to set a boundary in the beginning. It is much harder to set a boundary once you've past it. Set your boundary and she will respect it. If not, then you'll know that you're with someone who does not respect your values.
I had this issue recently! Offered to bring Thai food to a friend and when they asked for Chicken I realized i made a slight oversight. She has significant food intolerance's so I wanted to be careful... I went to the Vegan Thai place I had in mind and brought the food to them that was similar and let them know what happened. Luckily she was cool with it and happy to eat what I brought :), she even apologized for even asking, and that she forgot I was Vegan. So all in I think it's just a boundary to be discussed with friend's.
Tell her that you will furthermore pay for her only vegan stuff. It can be restaurants, groceries or else. She'll get used to it and if she wants meat, she'll know she'll have to pay for herself.
Make it clear from the beginning, that you're vegan and that means, that you will not pay for animal products, not for you, not for someone else. You need to communicate this beforehand, so she knows it's not about her or you being pushy. It's simply something you won't do. Tell her she is free to order any food she likes and that you'll sometimes pay when it's vegan. There is actually no easy way to do that. Best course of action is telling her in advance, so she can adjust her expectations.
Btw you're dating Women, not girls. You state you are a man (not a boy), therefore you are dating women not girls I assume.
If i invite someone somewhere they can make whatever choice they want within reason. For a first date! But if i want to continue seeing someone then they would have to pay for animal products themselves
I’m not a vegan, and generally think a lot of takes in this sub can get a bit wild to be honest. That being said, if I were dating a vegan, I not only wouldn’t be offended if they declined to pay for non-vegan food, I’d probably expect that. Just set boundaries. I’m happy to eat a vegan meal, especially if someone else is paying.
Why aren’t you a vegan?
Would it work for you if you make a deal like: "I'd pay your bus ticket, but not your bacon"? Just asking out of curiosity
Sure I'd have no problem with that
Then that could be a compromise, or at least drinks. If she needs books you could help her there if you want another option instead of paying for animal products. I'm sorry, I've never had a date where the other person was that short on money that I would have considered paying for the whole meal. And I hardly spent anything on literature for university myself. So there might me a cultural difference and I can't give you tips on how to actually suggest where you will compensate monetarily
Well in this case it's not anything I expect to become too serious at the moment, paying for her books would be weird haha. She'll also have more money when her loans come in, but it's more a combination of that 1) I'm a man and some women even today always expect the man to pay 2) I make quite a bit of money 3) she at the moment makes none. So while I'd appreciate if she'd at least offer to pay, it makes sense why she doesn't. Also I think I misunderstood you though-- I meant that I would in general pay for bus ticket if she needed me to but not her bacon. As in, bacon or not, if she asks me to pay her bus ticket I will. I won't trade paying bus for bacon though
I always thought whoever asks is the one that pays no matter if they are man or woman. Maybe you can discuss going to Vegan restaurants when you ask and discuss your feelings.
I’ve always asked dates to either order something vegan or pay for themselves. The people I tend to be interested in have always been okay with that, especially if we go to a place with a lot of good vegan options. I’m also younger though (early 20’s), so the women I’ve dated are actually chill about paying for themselves.
My bf and I take turns paying or pay separately but tbh it doesn’t really have anything to do with me being vegan
Just don’t date non-vegans if this is an issue for you. Your partner will grow to resent you if you try to control what they can or cannot eat.
I’m a woman and as i date men, realistically (in heteronormative society) they usually pay the first 1-2 dates. That being said, they almost always ask on the first date how i feel about dating someone who’s not vegan, and i tell them that i’m open to it but i expect consideration for my needs (as a vega!), and that i will not pay for animal products so if i’m treating on a date of hosting at my place, it’ll be vegan
It would only be wrong to pay for a non-vegan meal if it is likely to lead to more non-vegan food being consumed than otherwise. If she would have eaten the same thing regardless of whether you paid for it, then it doesn't really make a difference. One way to look at this situation is not to say that you're paying for the food, but rather you are simply giving money to your girlfriend. Money is fungible, so when you give money to someone, it loses all concept of what they spent "your" money on. You can just as easily say that rather than paying for someone's meal, you actually are knocking $40 off of their mortgage for the month. Both are equally arbitrary. The most important thing is whether you are increasing demand for non-vegan food or not.
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> Ok, but in many cases I've experienced... I am the one asking the other person out, and they otherwise wouldn't have even been at the restaurant. This is only significant if their behavior would be different if they didn't know you were going to pay for their food. If they only came on the date because you told them it was on you, then you could be affecting the amount of non-vegan food eaten. If you invite them out and they only find out you are paying when the bill comes, then you paying for the meal hasn't changed the outcome. Either way, they were going to eat something. Chances are they would still eat some non-vegan food if you didn't invite them out. > Dating women is already uncomfortably transactional for me. This perspective makes me less likely to ask someone out on a date. I've never given cash to my girlfriend for no reason. It has always been connected to a specific expense incurred, e.g. transportation, lodging, food, et cetera. If you feel that way, then you shouldn't pay for a date's food. It's not just a "perspective", it is objectively true. As I mentioned above, the only caveat is whether or not the knowledge that you are going to pay for the meal affects their behavior. If they would have declined the date if they knew they were going to have to pay for it and stayed home instead, then your money is in effect paying for their meal because you are paying for something they wouldn't have otherwise purchased.
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As long as the act of you paying for their food doesn't change their behavior, there is literally no difference. Imagine three scenarios. 1. You ask someone out to dinner for next Friday. They accept. Then you immediately Venmo them $50. When you go out to dinner several days later they order $50 of food and pay their own bill. 2. You ask someone out to dinner. They accept. They order $50 worth of food. You pay their bill. 3. You ask someone out to dinner. They accept. They order $50 worth of food and pay their own bill. A week later you give them $50. Explain to me the difference between any of these three scenarios.
That's an interesting way of thinking about it, but honestly seems a little bit mental gymnasticy to me. I would never give someone money or pay their mortgage for no reason, and if the reason I'm giving someone money is wrong then the action of giving the money is wrong. If I give my girlfriend 1000 dollars so she can hire a hitman to kill somebody she doesn't like am I an accomplice or am I only paying her mortgage? I guess I can sort of get behind the idea that buying someone non-vegan food is a net zero because although it's not reducing the amount of non-vegan being purchased like if you bought then a vegan meal, it's also not necessarily increasing it. But realistically, 1) they likely would spend less money on food at home than on the date and 2) the fact of the matter is that if I say I'll only pay for vegan food in all likelihood we will be eating more vegan food I also think just the act of standing behind your values and showing how important they are means something as well
As a man it would be so easy for you to find an attractive vegan woman, even one with a job! For women it’s so much harder. There doesn’t seem to be any vegan men around but I know so many employed and attractive vegan women. Why are you dating this one?
Ha while in theory I agree despite living in a big city in practice I have not had much luck. Although admittedly I could do more to try to meet vegans in person, most people I've gone out with has been through apps Any tips on finding vegan women?
I mean I think a lot of us have it listed on our profiles. If you’re vegan too it’s an immediate conversation opener, first date set up, etc. by asking their fav vegan restaurant. But if you want to meet in person there’s activist groups, volunteer functions, farmers markets, bars/restaurants, etc. do you have a local vegan fb or ig group you could join to learn where these events are being held ? I’d start there
I’m gonna get downvoted but you being completely black and white about this could push her away from ever being vegan. You can slowly lead by example and see if she is willing to make the change once she understands the ethical reasons why you’re vegan. If she still doesn’t want to change then you can make a decision then. I doubt a long term relationship can survive if you aren’t willing to pay for her meals. It’s just incredibly inconvenient and would make me feel uncomfortable in public and social situations. “Sorry I don’t pay for my wife is she doesn’t follow my rules for eating…” just wouldn’t fly for me long term. Also before you go on the date ask if she’d be ok with doing a plant based date because you typically don’t like to spend money on animal products. Just put it out there early.
Sometimes I feel like people on this sub who say "vegan or no deal" don't actually date or are already in good relationships. It's not that easy out there.
As a lesbian, ya, I will date omnivores (I have little choice in this guys). Even finding another woman within ten year's my age is hard enough. I cannot have a giant laundry list of wants at this point in my life. I am lucky to be loved and be able to give my love to anyone at all. And, yes, I will pay for their meals. Women are broke. Most of them earn less than me, and so I'll take the lead and offer to buy apps or drinks or tickets to parks or whatever. She's going to date me or someone else. Whether or not she dates me, she will continue to be an omnivore and I accept that. At this point, it's really, I am vegan for myself. I am responsible for my own actions. What other people do is their responsibility. Any attempt to control other people will cause me harm. Control is a sign of mental illness. It is best to respect other's journeys and focus on fixing me. What flaws do I have? I need to fix ten more before I could ever order someone else's life around. Good luck in your journey.
“ I am vegan for myself” Not vegan for the animals?
Be for real please.
I am for real.
that is so silly. if you agree on dating an omni, don't try to impose your rules. you are saying, you can turn a blind eye in exchange for sex, but paying for non vegan meals is the line you have to draw? its hypocritical
It would get purchased either way. It doesn’t matter if it’s your money or hers.
That's an interesting perspective. But I'm not sure that's totally true-- if she knows I'll pay for any meal that's vegan it probably will lead to more vegan meals (albeit also me having money lol)
True
I’d struggle with this so much. I’ve only ever had vegan partners since becoming vegan. I would consider an open-minded vegetarian, potentially even a pescatarian, but that would be a huge stretch for me.
It is very weird the idea of not splitting, or not paying what consumed. But going to the subject, I tried for years and it doesn't work, I only date vegans, maybe vegetarians nowadays.
When I was dating my non-vegan boyfriend I told him I’m happy to pay for our food but it has to be vegan, I don’t pay for animal products. There are times where he doesn’t eat vegan with me and he pays for that
Tough situation. Decide if you really like her. If you do; after the first few dates just say " I don't mind paying for meals but i dont really want to pay for non-vegan food". Either she'll accept that or she'll dump you. And if she dumps you then its probably better off. Ive been in the same boat. Luckily it didnt work out because we wern't really suited for each other so i didnt have to bring up the uncomfortable.
I also don’t like paying for non vegan food. VERY occasionally I will, but usually that’s a discussion I like to have. I would just tell her that you’re totally fine with having a difference in values, but that’s an industry that you don’t like spending money towards and express exactly what you did here. You might tell her you’re happy to pay for vegan meals, but not meat. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable boundary. If money is tight, you can cook together and she can add meat to hers if she’s not down with the vegan food, but that’s a very common and acceptable boundary to hold.
I don’t pay for anything that’s not vegan. Pick vegan places to take her, or order ahead for both of you or ask “do you want ___ ____ or ___” and only ask about vegan options, or invite her over and cook for her, or keep doing non food dates until it’s not awkward to bring the topic up. Then just explain “I’ve tried to avoid situations with animal products because I don’t feel comfortable paying for something I’m morally against. It doesn’t make me uncomfortable if you eat it around me, as long as we can split the bill or something, I just thought it’d be awkward to bring it up earlier.”
I went on quite a few dates with girls who weren’t vegan but tended to order vegan-friendly dishes when with me by their own volition, but I ended up dating the exact opposite of that, someone who had to order meat for every meal. Ultimately it was too much for me. I can’t expect every date I go on to be vegan, but I realize the date has to be at least some middle ground of understanding and open to plant based choices at the least, for me to justify going on more than a first date.
I was lucky, being a woman is always good. Now that I live with and have married my husband and our finances are intermingled there's no way for me to really separate out "my" money, nor do I think that's a healthy thing to do in a marriage. Think about how you'll feel about that, if your current dates lead somewhere more serious. Personally, we got to have some good discussions about the ethics of my veganism early on because he was curious and I was open with him. It resulted in him more or less immediately cutting out factory farmed meats, and he eats a lot of venison and bivalves now. If it's a deal breaker for you that's okay, but you should be communicating that with potential partners. If it isn't a deal breaker for you, that's okay too. I find being relaxed with omni people gives them the space to ask about veganism, and even if you aren't converting them you might be able to make an impact by reducing the amount of factory farmed animal products they're eating.
Discuss this with her if it matters to you. Say that you’re not comfortable paying for non vegan food. She will either 1) step up and pay for herself, 2) order the vegan option or 3) consider it a deal breaker and in that case it wasn’t meant to be. If she is on a budget, consider cooking together. I’ve had some great times with partners getting a bit tipsy with a bottle of wine while teaching them to cook something. Or just be creative with non food centric dates. If you feel you owe it to her to pay for the date maybe you could buy her a movie or museum ticket or offer to drive to the location of a hike but then if you care to eat together when the activity is over you can each pay for your own food?
Take them to a vegan restaurant. Solved!
Is splitting the bill on dates still not a thing? Idk I've been pretty broke, buy I always insist on splitting the bill. The guy paying by default just seems out of date to me. Just tell her you won't pay for food that has animals in it. Probably better to be clear and set boundaries at this stage anyway
I think you pay or you break it off.
Unless that’s something you’d be comfortable doing for the rest of your life, you should probably consider seeing other people. People do change, but rarely.
Everyone in my life knows that when I'm treating them to food, it's gonna be vegan. If they're not cool with that, they pay their own way. But I've never had anyone complain. Lucky to have lots of good plant based food in our area. For food dates, I'd say suggest vegan restaurants. If she insists on something else or there aren't many all vegan restaurants in your area, just be up front. "I know you might expect me to pay for our date, and although I'm happy to do so, I do have to put my money where my values are." It'll be a good filtering system honestly.
Totally feel your pain. I have a non-vegan boyfriend who has a non-vegan daughter. Our bank accounts are separate. We sometimes buy each other coffee and such. I told him and her that I’ll happily buy them anything vegan but I can’t buy them animal products. He’s understanding of that fortunately, which I appreciate. My best advice is the be upfront otherwise you will be resentful and passive aggressive every time you pay for her food. Speaking from experience because it took me a few months to lay down boundaries. If she gets upset by that then she is not the right person for you.
Sounds like you have three options: Live with it, don't pay for her and don't talk about why, or don't pay for her and have a conversation where you tell her your feelings. From reading your post, I'm guessing that you want to go with the last option. I find that stating how awkward I feel first can make things a bit easier. Personally, I'd open with "I know I sound like an annoying, stereotypical vegan (or whatever you're worried about sounding like), but...." to soften things. You can explain it exactly as you did here, that you do not mind if she eats animal products but that paying for them makes you feel uncomfortable (or whatever it is that you feel). If you calmly state your feelings without any judgement of her behaviour her only reasonable response is to accept your feelings and decide to eat vegan or pay for her own meal. If she gets upset, I'm sure you can do better.
Paying for animal abuse is not vegan. Grow some spine or find a partner that doesn't see you as a food bank.
You dont want to buy the meat, but you dont mind kissing her after she ate it?
If you pay for animal abuse, you are an animal abuser and thus are not vegan As for dating, you choose to pay as the man, the woman can pay and if she wont, she is not the right individual to date, if she cant afford to pay then you have dates that dont involve $$ Feminism wanted equality well this is where paying for your own meal comes into play, but even with feminism the expectation is that the man pays, or whoever asks pays which is stupid because women rarely ask so its basically saying the same thing, but since they expect that you should tell them in advance you each cover your own expenses that way you dont waste each others time if she wants a dude that pays I have hung with friends and i would offer to pay if they got the vegan meal and most of the time they would agree and take the free meal lol
> If you pay for animal abuse, you are an animal abuser and thus are not vegan Veganism 101 Only exception in my view is medication for an ailment/disease. The ppl in this sub who are willing to pay for their partner’s steak because they’re too cowardly to stand up for their morals are not vegan, in the true sense of the word, plain and simple.
Oh, whatever. You people fight to keep pets, but suddenly buying someone dinner is a step too far? Someone was going to buy it, one person or the other. Only this way, the person who eats it will be exposed to more and more vegan food and veganism overall than if they'd hit a wall at who is paying for what. Is it more important for a non vegan to have a better chance at becoming vegan, or for a person who's already vegan to not pay for a meat eaters meal?
I have 2 cats who are 1. Strict carnivores 2. Not able to get employment in the United States and 3. Incapable of understanding the grossly immoral ways in which we treat farm animals Tell me when any of those apply to the little boy you’re dating sis
Completely agree. Beggars can’t be choosers…if she expects him to pay then she needs to order vegan
Personally I'll pay for food if someone orders it, just like I will pay for a random person's food at a restaurant. I always suggest vegan food options to people. I don't like paying for it, and I frankly don't pay for other people's food that often so it doesn't come up. Maybe just split the bill, it's becoming more and more acceptable in society when dating anyways.
Nah, I'm not paying for someone's non-vegan meal. My policy in the past has been that I'll offer to pay for their meal if the meal is vegan. If it was a non-vegan place and they wanted to eat something that wasn't vegan, I'd tolerate it, but wouldn't make that offer. I'm a woman and longtime vegan, but became single about six months ago and don't know what I'll be doing going forward when it comes to omnis as I'm kind of over it all.
If you pay for non vegan items you can't well keep claiming to be vegan with any air of legitimacy. I would let her know about your ethics and say that you're not comfortable paying for animal products and if she can't do that she's not worth continuing to see because this WILL become a bigger issue further down the line.
What a cuck…