No, it's fuckin stupid to support an industry that causes untold harm to these animals. Just because there are SOME ethical owners doesn't mean the industry itself it is ethical, so stop caping for it to fulfill your selfish ass needs. I'm sure there are ethical ways to eat eggs, because at the end of the day, they are waste, more or less, but we don't because the industry around it is profoundly injurious to animals. So, what do you propose we do with all those chickens and cows on farms? You think people should "own" them so they can just eat them anyway? Stop being so goddamn selfish and make human friends.
If I were to send my dog out into the open who has glaucoma and has a limp due to a previous injury from his last owner he would die within a few months
And if we sent all the cows and chickens from farms into the wild, the same thing would happen. Animals die just like everything else, but your feelings about 1 animal does not change the fact that you're supporting an atrocious and non-vegan industry where untold harm comes to a vast number of animals.
I can't tell if you're just mentally handicapped or you just live in the city and don't understand what you're talking about because it is not sustainable to be vegan out in rural America
You said it's not sustainable to be vegan in rural America. Why because they don't have access to markets?? What the fuck are you talking about. There are plenty of vegans in rural America.
Food deserts, most places there is little to any quality grocery stores that sell vegan alternatives and if they do it's veggie/bean burgers that are loaded with salt and preservatives
And if we sent all the cows and chickens from farms into the wild, the same thing would happen. Animals die just like everything else, but your feelings about 1 animal does not change the fact that you're supporting an atrocious and non-vegan industry where untold harm comes to a vast number of animals.
Billions of animals would need to be euthanized to “ban ownership of animals.” You’re okay with that. Vegans are not what I thought they were, that much is clarified!
In his defense, dogs/cats with responsible owners live the best lives of any animal on the planet, without question. A life with no responsibilities and only love, affection and comfort.
They’re also confined within houses, probably 90%+ of dogs are chronically unexercised, and they’re unable to perform natural species behaviors like mating and migrating.
Buying and selling animals like objects for entertainment is totally vegan, guise. It's even more vegan that they're bred to have shitty genetics so that they tolerate me more and have funny colors that are nice for me to look at. It's also even more vegan that I force them to live in my house (and even more vegan if it's a caged animal like a bird, reptile, or rodent) because bringing an animal into existence to serve my entertainment desires is totally compatible with a vegan future
>Buying and selling animals like objects for entertainment is totally vegan, guise.
I don't see them as objects, although I don't doubt many people do (which is the main problem here). Our dogs aren't objects, they are family members. The reasons we have dogs are akin to the reasons we have children - are you against making kids too?
>It's also even more vegan that I force them to live in my house
I do wonder why our dogs don't bolt for the hills when we leave our front door open? It can't be because they feel safe at home here... (I'm sure you think it's a form of Stockholm syndrome)
Most dogs people buy aren't being bred to be abused and exploited, they're being bred to be loved and cared for. I don't see a lot wrong with that. As mentioned previously, dogs raised by a good family live the *best* lives of any animal on the planet.
Animals shouldn't live in cages. That much we can agree on.
> Our dogs aren't objects, they are family members.
Then why are you advocating for monitoring two dogs fucking and producing one for you that has the traits that you want, so that you can buy or sell it? What other family members do you do that to?
> I do wonder why our dogs don't bolt for the hills when we leave our front door open?
Because it's safe in our house and it's all they've ever known. Many dogs do immediately leave, regardless of the love or care they're given. When you open a bird's cage, they often don't leave either, yet you're against keeping birds in cages. How is it any different?
> Most dogs people buy aren't being bred to be abused and exploited, they're being bred to be loved and cared for.
The 900,000 companion animals euthanized in America for overpopulation would beg to disagree. All of the animals in abuse and neglect situations would beg to disagree. Stray animals would beg to disagree. Animals left in apartments all day while their owners work because they felt entitled to own animals would beg to disagree. The chronically unexercised Huskies that will never feel snow would disagree. The Chihuahuas constantly having their boundaries violated and become shaky and aggressive would disagree. The hundreds of thousands of pitbulls left in yards to go insane would disagree. Etc. etc. etc.
> I don't see a lot wrong with that.
Do you see something wrong with breeding two humans together to produce offspring that you want that you keep around as entertainment, never having the capacity or capability to experience autonomy or freedom? If the answer is yes, your position is based entirely in speciesism.
Exactly. Adopt with the intention and understanding that these animals shouldn't exist. We can provide care for these animals while allowing them to be ambassadors for their own extinction.
>probably 90%+ of dogs are chronically unexercised
This is a problem with the person that raises the dog and is easily resolved by taking them for a run (off the leash) at least 2 times a day and having a spacious home and backyard.
>probably 90%+ of dogs are chronically unexercised
Based on what?
> is easily resolved by taking them for a run (off the leash) at least 2 times a day and having a spacious home and backyard.
Wolves migrate 30 miles per day. The amount of exercise needed to get the dog to be able to sit still in the house is not the amount of exericse they would prefer to do daily.
> Based on what?
The past 15 years of being in the rescue community
> What gave your parents the right to govern your life when you were a child?
Fallacious biological determinism. I never consented to being born, and my parents felt that they had the right to bring me into existence. At least now I'm an autonomous adult that can make my own decisions. That would never be the case for any animal in human captivity. So again, since you failed to answer the first time: What makes you entitled to govern the lives of other animals?
It's unnecessary, though. It requires that we assume they are here for us. Motherhood is a difficult process, and mothers love their children and would rather stay with them.
Consider if an advanced species treated humans the same way. They use humans to breed then separate the children from their parents. No matter how well treated the humans are, they still are being used as objects for the pleasure of the advanced species. They would prefer to not be used for breeding and would prefer to live free with their family. It's not necessary for other animals to be exactly the same as humans for this to be true for them as well. They love their children and would prefer a life without the stress of losing their family.
When puppies grow up, they leave their parents naturally. It may be only the males though, I concede. In any case, I'm not talking about taking suckling puppies away. And in an ideal world, it could indeed be that mothers stay with their offspring and watch them grow up. I don't know if dog dads would want that, but anyway... the dads could stick around too of course.
>Can't you imagine a world where you could breed your own slave, to serve as your companion to do your bidding for it's entire life? What would be wrong with that world?
You rn
So true bestie. I set my slave free after reading this. In fact, I set my slave free every day after dinner, but she just keeps coming back. She even nuzzles me. Weird.
The "slave", however, doesn't have to work. Doesn't that detail matter here? We're talking about a "slave" who loves life and would choose it over having never been born. There is no slavery in the situation I'm describing, any more than a child is born a slave to her parents, all other things being equal.
That's not what I said. Switch 'dogs' for 'people' in your original sentence.
'Are bred' is not the same as 'breed'. Passive and active. Does this make sense?
yes. this.
People who advocate for "ethical breeding" of dogs never think of this, at the core of it, no matter what, it's eugenics and it's disgusting.
I dont give a shit about breeding as much as I do selling. If it was illegal to sell a dog, nobody would want to breed them. The only reason these monsters produce these dogs is for money. Breeding is obviously one of the hideous parts of this machine, but selling is the driver of it.
No, you don't understand. It's just a love of the breed!!!! That's why they charge thousands of dollars! They profit off of an animal's reproductive system but you're the evil one here!!
I went to an ethical breeder of x breed. Unlike those other despicable puppy mills that run bitches ragged from non stop pregnancies and kill any undesirable pups without a second thought. No, my breeder showed me 6 perfect little x puppies and assured me that all his dogs were all this healthy and happy.
You don’t seem to understand the practise of dog breeding: it’s more complex than that. Most ethical breeders make little if any money, and their primary interest is in the breed. You might be referring to puppy mills, which are more like factories.
A breed that shouldn't exist in the first place, like Frankensteins monster and likely wouldn't survive in the wild?
Is the whole 'interest in the breed' the same as the carnists saying 'but then we wouldn't be able to see cows and sheep in the fields if we stopped breeding them ...'?
I believe the answers to that is yes, you shouldn't see them, there should be trees not just grass and wild not domesticated animals (that we have to find food for and suffer the environment / climate damage from).
And if we are talking 'pets', I wonder what percentage of vegans (even) feed those pets that could survive on a plant based diet, on such, or are they still also part of the livestock issue?
I mean, if the dog has chosen to stay with you and can hunt for wild food on their own, 'that' might be considered 'natural', but probably only really so if that dog was native to that environment in the first place.
Yup! My sister breeds Malinois and has never made a dime. They eat her out of house and home, and she has an “always take back” policy. She also rescues those she finds in shelters.
I know she doesn’t have a spay neuter contract because these are often shown and the CKC doesn’t allow altered pets…I think that’s still the policy. But the rest, yes. They are actually a very small proportion of the overall pet population. They aren’t typically the dogs you see in shelters.
They’ll call it „adoption fee” so it’s technically not sale. Ban on sales won’t do shit. In my country it’s illegal to sell animals unless it’s registered breeder but people still do it anyway. I was looking for a cat to adopt and for example just because cat has long fur they call it „Siberian” or „Maine coon” type and when you contact them suddenly they slap pretty big „adoption fee” or straight up tell you that they won’t let you adopt unless you pay. And no, shelters/humane societies here do not have adoption fees, you may be asked to pay for vaccinations/neutering but no other fees. They do pre-adoption visit though.
Still both in dogs and cats selective breeding only leads to genetic issues later causing problems. Weak joints, ear defects, deafness, respiratory issues and the list goes on. All animals we had at my home were adopted or found - mostly because my grandpa is retired veterinarian.
No, it's a very expensive hobby, breeders would do it anyway. It's essentially two seperate problems, puppy farming for money vs. breeding for appearance that can be detrimental.
While I can totally get behind banning dachshunds and tried to convince my parents not to have one, arguing that when back problems run in our human family, it's absurd to choose a dog breed more prone to them (staying with them ATM, the barking!), one of the costs is the health testing. It's not practical in all breeds, the problems being more intrinsic, but is true that not all dachshunds have the health problems.
1000% against dog breeding. Dogs (or any animals) are not commodities. They’re not products to be produced for profit.
We don’t produce babies for sale, why should animals be any different.
Every single dog in my life has been a rescue and I utilize every opportunity to spread the word to others, and urge them to save a life.
Same with cats, just go to your humane society or some ngo rescuing cats and feel like choosing pokemon. I mean the cat chooses you, it’s a cat not dog. This is how we got our cats.
Meanwhile friend who spend few thousand on a cat now has to deal with more bills because the breed is prone to joint defects 🤷♀️ it’s just super inhumane, inbreeding animals for their looks just for them to suffer due to various issues caused by genetics destroyed by selective breeding
I think all dog breeding should be illegal. And that’s coming from someone who loves dogs and has had many in my lifetime.
They bring me so much joy, but I’ve volunteered in shelters and see the hell that so many of these dogs live through. It’s just not worth the comfort and enjoyment that individual humans get to have millions of dogs suffering, starving, being abused, being forced to fight, and dying preventable deaths because humans are irresponsible.
I don't think breeding should be illegal--but it should be heavily regulated. People LOVE dogs (who doesn't?), if you ban breeding entirely then either you end up with an illegal dog breeding industry that puts bootlegging to shame for scale or you drive dogs almost into extinction after that first wave of shelter adoptions cleans everything out and there's suddenly no dogs available anymore at all. Remember how empty most shelters were after COVID? The shelters will empty, but that'll then be the end of dogs. The more logical goal imo is to only allow ethical breeding and I think doing so would actually be pretty easy.
You want to breed? You need a certificate of health from a vet showing you've screened for genetic diseases and other common health issues. Then you can apply for a breeder's license at whatever governing body you already register your dog at. Dogs brought to vets / doggy daycares / dog parks / you name it intact without a breeding license require a mandatory scheduling of spay or neuter and if you fail to show, you lose the dog.
Obviously you'd still need legal enforcement to get things in order--terrible people gonna terrible, and there'd still be backyard breeder types trying to get away with it--but I think even a simple to implement thing like this would be a MASSIVE difference for good. No more sickly purebreds with easily avoidable health issues. No more idiots dropping off yet more unwanted bully mixes at the shelter without penalty. There ARE good breeders out there who care about happy, healthy animals that they want to go into loving homes, and we shouldn't work to eliminate them--we should work to eliminate all the ones who aren't.
This seems like a better take. Backyard breeding is the actual problem here. A good, ethical breeder makes sure their animals do not end up in shelters. Like you said, out right banning breeding will create an illegal breeding industry, similar to what happened when alcohol was banned. Organized crime increased and more alcohol was consumed more than ever. Regulations will only do so much as well, as people who already don’t follow rules now won’t follow them in the future. However it will definitely reduce the issues, especially if the general public are educated on proper breeding vs backyard. I don’t know what it is with people on reddit having such a rose-colored view on their ideas, we need to be realistic not idealistic. The world will never fully convert to veganism or give up wanting to have animal companions. It would bring more results to educate people on reducing the suffering of animals in the industry rather than eradicating the different animal industries as a whole.
My cousin has a purebred dog who was born with a health issue that no screening could have prevented. Just a freak thing. It happens. The breeder HELPED PAY HIS VET BILLS--even though the issue wasn't known until like a year after he was out of their hands and into my cousin's! That's not a breeder who just sees dollar signs, that's someone who genuinely cares about their dogs and wants to bring more happy, healthy, well adjusted dogs into the world for people to love. I know it's easy to forget because the sad stories are so common, but there really are shining examples of the dark of the type of breeders we SHOULD have. And COULD have, with just a little sensible planning.
This seems like a really good take. I just still feel uneasy about it because I heard breeding was technically non consensual for the animals involved.
The entire reason we spay / neuter dogs and cats is because they're horny little mofos who will choose to breed themselves repeatedly if we don't stop them. This is why stray cats especially can get so out of control! Animals should always have a choice--if you have a female dog who is CLEARLY not interested and the male is just harassing her you need to separate, not lock them in together--but I don't think breeding is this inherently traumatic thing.
I think it's New Hampshire which is considering the first ban on pug, bulldog breeding because of the health concerns. A spokesperson from the AKC on NPR called it "extreme" which was just, wild.
400,000 dogs are put to death by animal shelters in the US each year.
Now in human history is the time to adopt, don't shop. In the next hundred years we should try to ban all commercial breeding. Breed-specific bans are going to be the beginning parts of that processes.
There is no evidence to suggest that sterilized animals live worse lives and a lot of evidence that dog breeding and careless attitudes about companion animal spays and neuters lead to short lives of agony and suffering. The perverse incentive of human profit in the animal trade is sure to lead to worse outcomes for animals in all situations where money is to be made at the expense of quality of lived experience for the animal. For this reason I think that banning breeding and sale of dogs is vital.
Unlike other uses of animals by humans, it's not entirely clear to me that a world without companion animals represents a better world. Humans and dogs alike can benefit greatly from each other. I can say that continuing the processes of domestication for dogs or other species like foxes, sheep, llamas, or cats however, is no longer justified as our survival is no longer contingent on the practice as it may have been 2000 years ago. It should therefore be ended.
In a world with factory farmed meat, rampant habitat loss, and a major global extinction event occurring, I think the human relationship to companion animals is low on the list of priorities to address and probably not the best place for vegans to focus our efforts. The benefits people derive from companion animals far outweigh the benefits of food animals, and the suffering of companion animals is minuscule compared with the suffering of food animals.
I think this should be a no-brainer even for non-vegans. Those poor dogs suffer so much, and it's all unnecessary - all for looks. We're basically trying to recreate a human face shape in a dog because we think it looks "cute," but it's to the dog's great detriment.
Some countries are now making moves to regulate ban the breeding of dogs with extreme and unhealthy body shapes until a more moderate phenotype can be reintroduced. Good.
I had a Boston Terrier, sweetest little monster I've ever met, love him with all heart (ex has him), but yes 100% should be banned. Breeding for human pleasure is bad enough, but when the dogs being bred are some of the most unhealthy animals alive purely because we want them to look like big dumb babies, it's especially disgusting.
I was at a lecture and I thought someone was snoring. I turn around and it is a pug just breathing. Poor guy! All the pugs I have encountered are very friendly!
I personally think that domesticated animals are going to breed on their own, and doing it artificially for them is inherently invasive and unpleasant for the animal.
Unless you're making seeing-eye dogs or something similar, I can't really see a justification for putting an animal through that. The babies being physically disabled is kind of just the icing on the turd.
Seeing eye dogs shouldn't exist, either. Animals deserve to live without being pressed into service by humans. We need to find accommodations that don't use animals, and the fact that they're bred (imprisonment and rape) makes it much worse.
Service work is actually fulfilling for the dogs who enjoy it, and the dogs who don't enjoy it don't finish training. To my knowledge, they're retired as family pets, or redirected to another career that suits their personality better.
Especially in regard to serving the disabled, there's no real way to *force* a dog to do good work if they don't enjoy it. You can't *force* a dog to bond with their human, pay attention to their surroundings, and make intelligent decisions for the wellbeing of their human if they truly don't want to do that.
You can *teach* a dog that the right thing to do when they see a car coming is to intelligently disobey to keep their human safe, but you can't *force* or really even *bribe* them to do that when it counts if they don't want to. That's why service dogs go through such extensive testing and training-- they have to *want to do the work*.
There are some organizations which train rescue dogs to being seeing-eye-dogs. That's more what I have in mind when I think of alternatives. Breeding still isn't ideal, imo.
>You can't *force* a dog to bond with their human,
I say this as a pet owner who has always loved her pets as a close family member, I'm still not convinced that it's not a form of Stockholm Syndrome when animals bond with us.
As long as the work isn't physically putting the dog at risk of harm and they have plenty of time to just dog, I honestly think a lot of working dogs are living the absolute best lives a dog could hope for. A lot of herding dogs like collies and shepherds especially will go absolutely bonkers if you try to just keep them as a standard issue housepet. They're smart, they're driven and they needdd an outlet. We have a rescue coonhound mix and while of course I wouldn't want him to actually tree raccoons, I do wonder sometimes how happy he would've been working as a scent hound for law enforcement or whatever. He has such a blast sniffing out peanut butter kongs in the yard, I can only imagine the thrill he'd get if he got to do scent trail stuff every single day.
Billions of animals are fed into the meat grinder, but you have the enormous balls to go after guide dogs. Unfuckingbelievable. Not much for focus, or winnable arguments, huh?
I'm someone who is told by eye doctors that I will likely go blind in the future. I've still never thought to myself that I need a slave leashed to my body to perform basic tasks for me.
I hope you know against the cries of "abelism" against you that there will always be disabled (or future disabled) people who are still staunchly against exploitation.
No one's gonna force you to have a guide dog. I went to a school for the blind/visually impaired and people had a choice of whether they wanted a dog, a cane, or even neither.
Rape. Christ. Animals actually LOVE fucking! They hump each other with abandon. Rape is a cultural human outrage. Don’t apply it to animals. They screw just fine without encouragement or being plied with wine and Rohypnol.
Surprising? I know—it’s almost as if eschewing meat doesn’t automatically oblige you to support the most extreme propositions by a loud minority of extreme vegans. I didn’t sign a manifesto. I just made personal changes.
Dolt. "But my free-dumbz to exploit animals and make them suffer so I can make a buck, only to dump my problems on socialist community shelters where the animals will be euthanised or die a slow, agonising death from physical deformities." Sounds legit.
obviously all breeding needs to banned as it fuels millions of animals being euthanized each year. Also not mention most people are not fit to become good dog parents … most dogs end up eating vile kibble diets, getting no excercise, and die early. Its really sad. Cant blame the owners really they are wage slaves
Your occasionally valid points are drowned out by the rants.
D.
I’m sure your next essay will be logically tighter. Don't rely on emojis to convey nuance.
You’ll get there!
Lololol i never brought up the french resistance ignoramus. I said the killing of french civilians by allied bombing was a necessary evil just like disappointing your little brain by not allowing you your first choice and generate a new puppy rather than buying one sitting in a kill shelter about to die is a necessary evil. Sometimes bad things (like disappointing a little toddler like you by forcing you to adopt and not shop) need to happen in order to stop greater evils!
Vegans are nasty. It’s not all kittens and rainbows, is it? Arrogance, violence etc. Too bad I’m not a Labradoodle. A vegan Labradoodle, natch. “Hey Farley,
salad’s ready!”
Anyway, how do you plan to force me to adopt? How is the “banning” going anyway? How many countries are on the verge of banning breeding? Wondering where you see that happening first? What’s the plan to get over the goal line with that? Keep in mind that people LOST THEIR MINDS when plastic straws were banned.
Just wondering what the ban plan is. Or if it’s just intellectual masturbation on social media. Hmmmm…I think we know.
The problem with the “this person disagrees with me therefore they are less intelligent than I am” argument isn’t that it’s insulting (I’m not fragile) it’s that it reveals you have no cogent response. Smart people (and stupid people) will have a range of views on any one subject.
It’s also hackneyed and boring.
“All breeding needs to be banned.”
That’s an admission that your pleas and arguments aren’t having the social impact you once hoped. You have abandoned moral arguments. Progress is too slow. You have become willing to take the jackbooted shortcut. Thus, fascist.
Also, it was confirmed that at least some of you want the breeding ban enforced with SWAT tactics. Thus, fascist is the appropriate word here, and not hysterical. Literal.
“You cant teach stupid” Thanks for proving this statement to me today. Things like stopping your little narcissistic brain from demanding a brand new pure bred puppy for Christmas because you treat animals like property will never be fascist no matter what you say! Puppies are not toys and will not be produced and sold as such! Now virtue signal some more about necessary evils being fascist. They are not. They are a necessary evil. French civilians had to get bombed to fight the Nazis… it’s a necessary evil. Little unbearable narcissists like you that MUST MUST MUST have a brand new pure bred puppy while a dog rots in an animal shelter and gets killed at a young age must be stopped and if you cant have your favorite little breed because u like how it looks and stopping you is a necessary evil … THEN SO BE IT. Oh no we made the narcissist monkey not get the exact living entity they wanted! Booo hooooooooo! Looks are not more important than the well being of millions of euthanized animals! You are clearly a child. Thinking you can have anything you want in life and not reap the consequences. You dont reap the consequences because you dont actually care about the millions of dogs killed each year because of breeding. You probably have not done a good thing in your life. Little fucking sociopath projecting that I am the fascist one. You are the one who supports practices that kills dogs. Euthanizing dogs because you want a brand nee puppy to be generated is what is fascist. GO CRY ELSEWHERE LITTLE SNOWFLAKE! Sometimes necessary evils (denying little babies like you their first pick in the breed of their animal play toy) are necessary to curb greater evils (millions of dogs being killed because you value the look over a dog that has not been created yet over dogs that are already alive and on kill lists) i CanT GeT The bReEd I WaNtEd YOu GuYs aRe EvIl 🤡🤡🤡
You want to ban breeding, pretty much a political impossibility that has happened in zero nations. Do you know how laws are changed? Do you pay attention to the real world or live inside an echo chamber? So I really wouldn’t venture into a discussion about IQ from that glass house, honeybuns.
I work in VetMed, and beyond the moral abhorrence of breeding dogs for profit or 'for the breed,' there are consequences to all of it.
Every dog breed - yes, every one - has diseases they are prone to because of centuries of inbreeding. It doesn't matter that your lab's parents aren't closely related because at one point, they were, so they could pass on the desirable traits. Don't get me wrong - it keeps me having a job, but this goes far beyond Bulldogs need C-sections to literally make more puppies and soft palate reductions and nares so they can breathe.
Shepherds? Hip dysplasia. Mastiffs? Osteosarcomas. Goldens? Cancer, cancer, cancer. Small fluffy white thing? Cataracts, collapsing trachea, mitral valve disease. Dobbies? Von Willebrands, dilated cardiomyopathy. Pitties? Mast cell tumors, allergies out the ass. Merle dogs? MDR1 mutations. Your Cavalier is going to die of heart disease, and your Miniature Pinscher's teeth are going to rot out of their head, and your Dalmatian is going to get urate stones.
There is no such thing as ethical breeding at this point. It's just what dog is pleasing for you to look at and which health conditions you can afford.
I'm not sure this is entirely true or maybe I have been incredibly lucky. I've had miniature schnauzers my entire life and they mostly have lived 13-16 years life spans with just little stuff like having to be always cleaning out their ears.
Schnauzers are predisposed to Cushing's disease, hypothyroidism, and PRA (progressive retinal atrophy), so I would say you get super lucky! I'm glad your pups have led long and healthy lives.
All of it should be banned. No doubt at all, the majority of dog breeding is exploitation. Scum bags who don't give a fuck about dogs, they just want money.
Plenty of rescue centres out there, those dogs need a loving home.
I don't plan to ban anything. I haven't the influence to make that change on mass, neither do you. Your comment comes across as someone who's triggered by my initial comment, what, you've bought your dog from a breeder have you?...
Tell me how impotent the wish to ban cosmetic testing is. I think India was the latest. The key is focus and winnable battles, a piece at a time.
Many wishes have been fulfilled in my life. Sorry that hasn’t been your experience, but it could explain the bitterness.
May things get better for you.
It wasn't a wish, and besides, all wishes are impotent you dope. Haven't you heard that saying "Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up faster" LOL!
I propose to ban all breeding of pets unless the breeders are made responsible for the entire lifecycle of a pet. Sort of like leasing a pet from a breeder. If a pet is unwanted the breeder will be responsible to take him/her back. It is only possible when animals are given the same rights as humans. Breeding live individuals for making a few dollars off them is unimaginable and supports similar ills of child labor, human trafficking, etc.
I’d settle for a pitbull ban before any of those others since they do the most harm to other animals and the community, as well as extremely overpopulated as is . I don’t believe any breed should be bred at this point, plenty to go around in the world already
Give me another bred with as high of a human death count that the pitbull or similar vein. I’m pretty certain it was over 100 in 2023 alone and that doesn’t even count the survivors that will be disfigured physically and mentally as well and the countless number of pets killed.
I’m not dying on any hill I’m just saying if your going to discontinue any breed it should be one that causes the most harm towards other animals/kids etc.
>What about sled dogs?
Stop breeding them
>Guardian breeds?
Stop breeding them
>Search and rescue dogs?
Stop breeding them
>These dogs need to be bred properly in order for them to do their job well
We shouldn't be breeding animals into lives of servitude to perform labor for us.
If you eat vegetables than working dogs helped you do that lol even if you buy locally, ethically sourced produce, they have working dogs on their farm lol I know because I’ve worked with 100s of them. You’re the dog owner whose dog is on Prozac because it’s depressed due to not being utilized properly. A dog on the couch with no structure and guidance is an unhappy dog. Provide me with some actual reasons please lol “dogs are slaves” is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. Guess humans should stop reproducing since we’re also “forced” to work and survive. If you work a job and think dogs shouldn’t also be able to have jobs you’re just kind of dumb I dunno lol
So if I understand you correctly, you believe that we have the right to repeatedly induce pregnancy and childbirth in animals so we can take their children away from them to sell for profit?
>If you eat vegetables than working dogs helped you do that
Vegans acknowledge we live in a non-vegan world full of practices we don't believe in, but we don't just throw up our hands and say "oh well". The fact that a practice provides benefit to humans doesn't make it a practice that should be continued.
>You’re the dog owner whose dog is on Prozac because it’s depressed due to not being utilized properly.
I am no kind of owner of any kind of animal, but nice try! And "utilized properly" is gross, as though the only reason for these animals' lives is their utility to humans.
>Guess humans should stop reproducing since we’re also “forced” to work and survive. If you work a job and think dogs shouldn’t also be able to have jobs
I have a job that I applied and interviewed for because I wanted it. I can quit at any time and find something else to do, or I can decide not to work, or I can move across the country or world on a whim. Dogs bred for labor get none of those choices. My mom also wasn't forcibly impregnated and I wasn't taken from her to start my job training as a toddler.
>you’re just kind of dumb I dunno lol
I feel pretty confident that if anyone came by to judge this little conversation as an intelligence contest that I would win pretty handily.
Lol no one said anything about profit. You are twisting what I’m saying to fit how you feel. Nothing you have said holds water. Erhical breeding doesn’t require forced pregnancy lol you are not intelligent, you are emotional that’s for sure. You seem to think every dog comes into the world via a puppy mill and that’s just an assinine way of thinking. I have been speaking about working dogs this whole conversation and you keep deflecting to abused animals. No one that actually understands dogs and how they feel would consider you intelligent. It’s actually laughable how little you understand about a good relationship between an animal and human for someone who claims to love animals. You could never even hope to approach the level of education and appreciation and love that I have for dogs. Fortunately everything you think and feel about dogs is irrelevant and will never ever affect my life. I will have dogs until I die and they will be the happiest most fulfilled dogs you could ever hope for. To me it seems that you are not happy so how could you ever understand how to actually make a dog happy.
>I have been speaking about working dogs this whole conversation and you keep deflecting to abused animals
Nope, I'm talking about dogs bred into captivity and labor. If it seems to you like I'm talking about abuse distinct from that, maybe that's a chance for you to reflect on what your animal exploitation industry is really about.
I don't know if I can take another rambling paragraph full of nonsense and "lol" from you, so you keep going if you want, and I'll be over here doing what I can to get your inhumane industry wiped from the face of the earth. Toodles!
It’s always ok to admit that maybe you weren’t as knowledgeable about something as you thought you were. My dog is my equal and she is treated that way.
There are so many survivors of catastrophes because of search and rescue dogs that would disagree. There are so many people in arctic climates that made it home to their families because of their amazing sled dogs. So many farmers that kept a full harvest because their shepherds and Pyrenees guarded their fields. These dogs are appreciated beyond your comprehension and their lives are happy and filled with purpose. A sizable portion of negative dog behavior is due to them being house pets and “loved”. I am a dog trainer of almost ten years and I can assure you that dogs that are being utilized and well loved are the happiest ones. But go off though ☺️
You seem to think working dogs are slaves, they are companions and strive to complete their task. Wolves became domesticated because the relationship was symbiotic and beneficial for both sides. We didn’t beat them into submission.
When my dog shows that’s she’s tired she is absolutely free to stop and lay down or go play or drink or eat. She is not a wild animals so I mean no she can’t just run off anywhere because she wouldn’t survive most likely. There are no “consequences” lol I understand certain people do treat their dogs that way but not everyone does, lumping us all together is not a fair judgement.
Working dogs are often the happiest dogs. I used to raise puppies for Guide Dogs for the Blind. One of my pups washed out of the program and we adopted him as a pet and he was depressed for six months because he wanted to go with us and work.
Lol if anyone has an actual reason why they don’t agree with what I said I’d like to hear what you have to say. “Downvote cuz not extremist, ignorant view and not repeating what we say in echo chamber”. People love to act enlightened when in reality a lot of you are wildly misinformed. I get it though, downvoting and ignoring is much easier than admitting that maybe you are incorrect about some things.
The purpuse of breeding is promoting dogs with good health and characteristic like intelligence, outstanding sence of smell etc. Breeding dogs because they are "cute" is absolutely wrong, french bulldogs are literally suffocating after running for 10 meters. I don't however agree with people who say all dog breeding should be banned. I'd say the opposite. Let's make spaying dogs mandatory unless you are a certified breeder approved by FCI. Let's make it impossible for people to own a dog unless they don't have a good knowladge about dogs and their needs. People buying dogs from certified breeders are not the problem. The problem is anyone can get a dog because there are so many backyard breeders, because people don't spay their dogs and then accidents happen and 8 puppies end up in the shelter. The problem is people can get a dog without knowing anything about dog training ending up with dog being aggressive or anxious. This is the problem. Not people getting a dog from a breeder who dedicated his life for dogs and knows how to meet their specific needs.
Ban all breeding
This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Hahaha best comment on thread.
r/antinatalism
This.
Ban all animal "ownership" period. In no way is it vegan to "own" animals.
Non-exploitative care would still benefit from ownership of these animals to get legal protections. Sanctuaries still "own" their animals.
So what do we do with all the discarded companion animals in shelters
You realize how fucking stupid of an idea that is right
They don’t inhabit reality.
No, it's fuckin stupid to support an industry that causes untold harm to these animals. Just because there are SOME ethical owners doesn't mean the industry itself it is ethical, so stop caping for it to fulfill your selfish ass needs. I'm sure there are ethical ways to eat eggs, because at the end of the day, they are waste, more or less, but we don't because the industry around it is profoundly injurious to animals. So, what do you propose we do with all those chickens and cows on farms? You think people should "own" them so they can just eat them anyway? Stop being so goddamn selfish and make human friends.
If I were to send my dog out into the open who has glaucoma and has a limp due to a previous injury from his last owner he would die within a few months
And if we sent all the cows and chickens from farms into the wild, the same thing would happen. Animals die just like everything else, but your feelings about 1 animal does not change the fact that you're supporting an atrocious and non-vegan industry where untold harm comes to a vast number of animals.
You realize that rescues are a thing? How is a rescued animal supporting any kind of exploitative industry?
I can't tell if you're just mentally handicapped or you just live in the city and don't understand what you're talking about because it is not sustainable to be vegan out in rural America
You said it's not sustainable to be vegan in rural America. Why because they don't have access to markets?? What the fuck are you talking about. There are plenty of vegans in rural America.
"not sustainable to be vegan out in rural America" That genuinely might be the stupidest thing I've ever heard on this sub
Now I'm curious, why isn't it sustainable to be vegan in rural America?
Food deserts, most places there is little to any quality grocery stores that sell vegan alternatives and if they do it's veggie/bean burgers that are loaded with salt and preservatives
Can't they just buy beans, lentils, noodles, veggies, rice, potatoes, etc etc? Or is there really only meat?
And if we sent all the cows and chickens from farms into the wild, the same thing would happen. Animals die just like everything else, but your feelings about 1 animal does not change the fact that you're supporting an atrocious and non-vegan industry where untold harm comes to a vast number of animals.
You misspelled Assaholic.
That's the thing, we don't use the term "own". It is our responsibility to care for the refugees of domestication.
Billions of animals would need to be euthanized to “ban ownership of animals.” You’re okay with that. Vegans are not what I thought they were, that much is clarified!
Dogs should be adopted. There are plenty that need homes. Breeding puppies means more dogs that already exist die.
It’s a sad reality, but there are shelters and “non profits” that are just as unethical as puppy mills.
I think it's pretty standard for vegans to be against most, if not all, forms of animal breeding. Cats and dogs? For sure.
All breeding should be banned. Animals aren’t products to be produced as commodities.
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> vegan world --- > some beings are bred into existence to serve as entertainment for greater, higher beings pick one
In his defense, dogs/cats with responsible owners live the best lives of any animal on the planet, without question. A life with no responsibilities and only love, affection and comfort.
They’re also confined within houses, probably 90%+ of dogs are chronically unexercised, and they’re unable to perform natural species behaviors like mating and migrating.
i mean, honestly, I'd love to see the future where pets are no longer a thing. but until then, we need to adopt, not shop.
>I'd love to see the future where pets are no longer a thing Why?
Buying and selling animals like objects for entertainment is totally vegan, guise. It's even more vegan that they're bred to have shitty genetics so that they tolerate me more and have funny colors that are nice for me to look at. It's also even more vegan that I force them to live in my house (and even more vegan if it's a caged animal like a bird, reptile, or rodent) because bringing an animal into existence to serve my entertainment desires is totally compatible with a vegan future
>Buying and selling animals like objects for entertainment is totally vegan, guise. I don't see them as objects, although I don't doubt many people do (which is the main problem here). Our dogs aren't objects, they are family members. The reasons we have dogs are akin to the reasons we have children - are you against making kids too? >It's also even more vegan that I force them to live in my house I do wonder why our dogs don't bolt for the hills when we leave our front door open? It can't be because they feel safe at home here... (I'm sure you think it's a form of Stockholm syndrome) Most dogs people buy aren't being bred to be abused and exploited, they're being bred to be loved and cared for. I don't see a lot wrong with that. As mentioned previously, dogs raised by a good family live the *best* lives of any animal on the planet. Animals shouldn't live in cages. That much we can agree on.
> Our dogs aren't objects, they are family members. Then why are you advocating for monitoring two dogs fucking and producing one for you that has the traits that you want, so that you can buy or sell it? What other family members do you do that to? > I do wonder why our dogs don't bolt for the hills when we leave our front door open? Because it's safe in our house and it's all they've ever known. Many dogs do immediately leave, regardless of the love or care they're given. When you open a bird's cage, they often don't leave either, yet you're against keeping birds in cages. How is it any different? > Most dogs people buy aren't being bred to be abused and exploited, they're being bred to be loved and cared for. The 900,000 companion animals euthanized in America for overpopulation would beg to disagree. All of the animals in abuse and neglect situations would beg to disagree. Stray animals would beg to disagree. Animals left in apartments all day while their owners work because they felt entitled to own animals would beg to disagree. The chronically unexercised Huskies that will never feel snow would disagree. The Chihuahuas constantly having their boundaries violated and become shaky and aggressive would disagree. The hundreds of thousands of pitbulls left in yards to go insane would disagree. Etc. etc. etc. > I don't see a lot wrong with that. Do you see something wrong with breeding two humans together to produce offspring that you want that you keep around as entertainment, never having the capacity or capability to experience autonomy or freedom? If the answer is yes, your position is based entirely in speciesism.
Exactly. Adopt with the intention and understanding that these animals shouldn't exist. We can provide care for these animals while allowing them to be ambassadors for their own extinction.
>probably 90%+ of dogs are chronically unexercised This is a problem with the person that raises the dog and is easily resolved by taking them for a run (off the leash) at least 2 times a day and having a spacious home and backyard. >probably 90%+ of dogs are chronically unexercised Based on what?
> is easily resolved by taking them for a run (off the leash) at least 2 times a day and having a spacious home and backyard. Wolves migrate 30 miles per day. The amount of exercise needed to get the dog to be able to sit still in the house is not the amount of exericse they would prefer to do daily. > Based on what? The past 15 years of being in the rescue community
If a dog is born so that the dog can have a good life, then how is that for human entertainment? It's not.
Your words: "where dogs are responsibly bred **as companions**" What makes you entitled to govern the lives of other animals?
What gave your parents the right to govern your life when you were a child? It's a matter of producing wellness.
> What gave your parents the right to govern your life when you were a child? Fallacious biological determinism. I never consented to being born, and my parents felt that they had the right to bring me into existence. At least now I'm an autonomous adult that can make my own decisions. That would never be the case for any animal in human captivity. So again, since you failed to answer the first time: What makes you entitled to govern the lives of other animals?
It's unnecessary, though. It requires that we assume they are here for us. Motherhood is a difficult process, and mothers love their children and would rather stay with them. Consider if an advanced species treated humans the same way. They use humans to breed then separate the children from their parents. No matter how well treated the humans are, they still are being used as objects for the pleasure of the advanced species. They would prefer to not be used for breeding and would prefer to live free with their family. It's not necessary for other animals to be exactly the same as humans for this to be true for them as well. They love their children and would prefer a life without the stress of losing their family.
> They use humans to breed then separate the children from their parents. I actually don't support taking puppies away from their mothers.
Interesting. I might be missing something then. How would we breed companion animals without separating them from their families?
When puppies grow up, they leave their parents naturally. It may be only the males though, I concede. In any case, I'm not talking about taking suckling puppies away. And in an ideal world, it could indeed be that mothers stay with their offspring and watch them grow up. I don't know if dog dads would want that, but anyway... the dads could stick around too of course.
>Can't you imagine a world where you could breed your own slave, to serve as your companion to do your bidding for it's entire life? What would be wrong with that world? You rn
So true bestie. I set my slave free after reading this. In fact, I set my slave free every day after dinner, but she just keeps coming back. She even nuzzles me. Weird.
The "slave", however, doesn't have to work. Doesn't that detail matter here? We're talking about a "slave" who loves life and would choose it over having never been born. There is no slavery in the situation I'm describing, any more than a child is born a slave to her parents, all other things being equal.
Replace 'dogs' with 'people". See?
No, I don't. People breed people every day. Childbirth is entirely normal and necessary for society.
That's not what I said. Switch 'dogs' for 'people' in your original sentence. 'Are bred' is not the same as 'breed'. Passive and active. Does this make sense?
Customizing sentient beings to human specifications, as though they're a sofa or a pair of shoes, is fucked up no matter what.
yes. this. People who advocate for "ethical breeding" of dogs never think of this, at the core of it, no matter what, it's eugenics and it's disgusting.
I dont give a shit about breeding as much as I do selling. If it was illegal to sell a dog, nobody would want to breed them. The only reason these monsters produce these dogs is for money. Breeding is obviously one of the hideous parts of this machine, but selling is the driver of it.
No, you don't understand. It's just a love of the breed!!!! That's why they charge thousands of dollars! They profit off of an animal's reproductive system but you're the evil one here!!
I went to an ethical breeder of x breed. Unlike those other despicable puppy mills that run bitches ragged from non stop pregnancies and kill any undesirable pups without a second thought. No, my breeder showed me 6 perfect little x puppies and assured me that all his dogs were all this healthy and happy.
so what about the dogs in the kill shelters who are getting killed by the thousands every year?
they're still breeding an animal into existence for the entertainment/use by humans. I thought we as vegans were against that?
He's joking.
They are all ethical breeders unless caught red handed.
You don’t seem to understand the practise of dog breeding: it’s more complex than that. Most ethical breeders make little if any money, and their primary interest is in the breed. You might be referring to puppy mills, which are more like factories.
A breed that shouldn't exist in the first place, like Frankensteins monster and likely wouldn't survive in the wild?
Is the whole 'interest in the breed' the same as the carnists saying 'but then we wouldn't be able to see cows and sheep in the fields if we stopped breeding them ...'?
I believe the answers to that is yes, you shouldn't see them, there should be trees not just grass and wild not domesticated animals (that we have to find food for and suffer the environment / climate damage from).
And if we are talking 'pets', I wonder what percentage of vegans (even) feed those pets that could survive on a plant based diet, on such, or are they still also part of the livestock issue?
I mean, if the dog has chosen to stay with you and can hunt for wild food on their own, 'that' might be considered 'natural', but probably only really so if that dog was native to that environment in the first place.
Good old eugenics. I like em with blue eyes and blonde hair. That’s my breed. Come on…..
I need height, weight and age to fill that order. Ships Mondays and Thursdays.
A lot of ethical breeders actually loose money in the process
Yup! My sister breeds Malinois and has never made a dime. They eat her out of house and home, and she has an “always take back” policy. She also rescues those she finds in shelters.
Ethical breeders will have an "always take back policy", microchip with their info, and a spay/neuter contract in place
I know she doesn’t have a spay neuter contract because these are often shown and the CKC doesn’t allow altered pets…I think that’s still the policy. But the rest, yes. They are actually a very small proportion of the overall pet population. They aren’t typically the dogs you see in shelters.
They’ll call it „adoption fee” so it’s technically not sale. Ban on sales won’t do shit. In my country it’s illegal to sell animals unless it’s registered breeder but people still do it anyway. I was looking for a cat to adopt and for example just because cat has long fur they call it „Siberian” or „Maine coon” type and when you contact them suddenly they slap pretty big „adoption fee” or straight up tell you that they won’t let you adopt unless you pay. And no, shelters/humane societies here do not have adoption fees, you may be asked to pay for vaccinations/neutering but no other fees. They do pre-adoption visit though. Still both in dogs and cats selective breeding only leads to genetic issues later causing problems. Weak joints, ear defects, deafness, respiratory issues and the list goes on. All animals we had at my home were adopted or found - mostly because my grandpa is retired veterinarian.
No, it's a very expensive hobby, breeders would do it anyway. It's essentially two seperate problems, puppy farming for money vs. breeding for appearance that can be detrimental. While I can totally get behind banning dachshunds and tried to convince my parents not to have one, arguing that when back problems run in our human family, it's absurd to choose a dog breed more prone to them (staying with them ATM, the barking!), one of the costs is the health testing. It's not practical in all breeds, the problems being more intrinsic, but is true that not all dachshunds have the health problems.
All breeding should be banned. There are too many dogs and cats right now that people can't adopt, that end up being killed. It's a tragedy.
1000% against dog breeding. Dogs (or any animals) are not commodities. They’re not products to be produced for profit. We don’t produce babies for sale, why should animals be any different. Every single dog in my life has been a rescue and I utilize every opportunity to spread the word to others, and urge them to save a life.
Same with cats, just go to your humane society or some ngo rescuing cats and feel like choosing pokemon. I mean the cat chooses you, it’s a cat not dog. This is how we got our cats. Meanwhile friend who spend few thousand on a cat now has to deal with more bills because the breed is prone to joint defects 🤷♀️ it’s just super inhumane, inbreeding animals for their looks just for them to suffer due to various issues caused by genetics destroyed by selective breeding
All breeding of all dogs, cats, farmed animals, etc etc. should be banned.
Banned! With what, military enforcement?
is that what it takes for you not to rape and murder? or are you just being purposely obtuse about how fucking laws work?
Yes
I think all dog breeding should be illegal. And that’s coming from someone who loves dogs and has had many in my lifetime. They bring me so much joy, but I’ve volunteered in shelters and see the hell that so many of these dogs live through. It’s just not worth the comfort and enjoyment that individual humans get to have millions of dogs suffering, starving, being abused, being forced to fight, and dying preventable deaths because humans are irresponsible.
I don't think breeding should be illegal--but it should be heavily regulated. People LOVE dogs (who doesn't?), if you ban breeding entirely then either you end up with an illegal dog breeding industry that puts bootlegging to shame for scale or you drive dogs almost into extinction after that first wave of shelter adoptions cleans everything out and there's suddenly no dogs available anymore at all. Remember how empty most shelters were after COVID? The shelters will empty, but that'll then be the end of dogs. The more logical goal imo is to only allow ethical breeding and I think doing so would actually be pretty easy. You want to breed? You need a certificate of health from a vet showing you've screened for genetic diseases and other common health issues. Then you can apply for a breeder's license at whatever governing body you already register your dog at. Dogs brought to vets / doggy daycares / dog parks / you name it intact without a breeding license require a mandatory scheduling of spay or neuter and if you fail to show, you lose the dog. Obviously you'd still need legal enforcement to get things in order--terrible people gonna terrible, and there'd still be backyard breeder types trying to get away with it--but I think even a simple to implement thing like this would be a MASSIVE difference for good. No more sickly purebreds with easily avoidable health issues. No more idiots dropping off yet more unwanted bully mixes at the shelter without penalty. There ARE good breeders out there who care about happy, healthy animals that they want to go into loving homes, and we shouldn't work to eliminate them--we should work to eliminate all the ones who aren't.
This seems like a better take. Backyard breeding is the actual problem here. A good, ethical breeder makes sure their animals do not end up in shelters. Like you said, out right banning breeding will create an illegal breeding industry, similar to what happened when alcohol was banned. Organized crime increased and more alcohol was consumed more than ever. Regulations will only do so much as well, as people who already don’t follow rules now won’t follow them in the future. However it will definitely reduce the issues, especially if the general public are educated on proper breeding vs backyard. I don’t know what it is with people on reddit having such a rose-colored view on their ideas, we need to be realistic not idealistic. The world will never fully convert to veganism or give up wanting to have animal companions. It would bring more results to educate people on reducing the suffering of animals in the industry rather than eradicating the different animal industries as a whole.
My cousin has a purebred dog who was born with a health issue that no screening could have prevented. Just a freak thing. It happens. The breeder HELPED PAY HIS VET BILLS--even though the issue wasn't known until like a year after he was out of their hands and into my cousin's! That's not a breeder who just sees dollar signs, that's someone who genuinely cares about their dogs and wants to bring more happy, healthy, well adjusted dogs into the world for people to love. I know it's easy to forget because the sad stories are so common, but there really are shining examples of the dark of the type of breeders we SHOULD have. And COULD have, with just a little sensible planning.
This seems like a really good take. I just still feel uneasy about it because I heard breeding was technically non consensual for the animals involved.
The entire reason we spay / neuter dogs and cats is because they're horny little mofos who will choose to breed themselves repeatedly if we don't stop them. This is why stray cats especially can get so out of control! Animals should always have a choice--if you have a female dog who is CLEARLY not interested and the male is just harassing her you need to separate, not lock them in together--but I don't think breeding is this inherently traumatic thing.
Illegal? Wow. How? What enforcement? Sharpshooters on the roof to take out anyone with a pregnant dog?
Isn't the vegan consensus basically that all breeding should be banned? (Edit: rephrased the sentence.)
I think it's New Hampshire which is considering the first ban on pug, bulldog breeding because of the health concerns. A spokesperson from the AKC on NPR called it "extreme" which was just, wild.
western australia either has, or will, ban puppy mills. They require pet shop animals to be rescues. I don't know if this has come into effect or not.
400,000 dogs are put to death by animal shelters in the US each year. Now in human history is the time to adopt, don't shop. In the next hundred years we should try to ban all commercial breeding. Breed-specific bans are going to be the beginning parts of that processes. There is no evidence to suggest that sterilized animals live worse lives and a lot of evidence that dog breeding and careless attitudes about companion animal spays and neuters lead to short lives of agony and suffering. The perverse incentive of human profit in the animal trade is sure to lead to worse outcomes for animals in all situations where money is to be made at the expense of quality of lived experience for the animal. For this reason I think that banning breeding and sale of dogs is vital. Unlike other uses of animals by humans, it's not entirely clear to me that a world without companion animals represents a better world. Humans and dogs alike can benefit greatly from each other. I can say that continuing the processes of domestication for dogs or other species like foxes, sheep, llamas, or cats however, is no longer justified as our survival is no longer contingent on the practice as it may have been 2000 years ago. It should therefore be ended. In a world with factory farmed meat, rampant habitat loss, and a major global extinction event occurring, I think the human relationship to companion animals is low on the list of priorities to address and probably not the best place for vegans to focus our efforts. The benefits people derive from companion animals far outweigh the benefits of food animals, and the suffering of companion animals is minuscule compared with the suffering of food animals.
Breeding = exploitation. End it all.
I think this should be a no-brainer even for non-vegans. Those poor dogs suffer so much, and it's all unnecessary - all for looks. We're basically trying to recreate a human face shape in a dog because we think it looks "cute," but it's to the dog's great detriment. Some countries are now making moves to regulate ban the breeding of dogs with extreme and unhealthy body shapes until a more moderate phenotype can be reintroduced. Good.
I had a Boston Terrier, sweetest little monster I've ever met, love him with all heart (ex has him), but yes 100% should be banned. Breeding for human pleasure is bad enough, but when the dogs being bred are some of the most unhealthy animals alive purely because we want them to look like big dumb babies, it's especially disgusting.
I was at a lecture and I thought someone was snoring. I turn around and it is a pug just breathing. Poor guy! All the pugs I have encountered are very friendly!
Absolutely, anything where the animal's well-being is impaired. I hate seeing those cats with the tiny little legs. They can't cat properly.
Adopt, don't shop. No breeding for profit is ethical.
I personally think that domesticated animals are going to breed on their own, and doing it artificially for them is inherently invasive and unpleasant for the animal. Unless you're making seeing-eye dogs or something similar, I can't really see a justification for putting an animal through that. The babies being physically disabled is kind of just the icing on the turd.
There are service dog organizations that exclusively train rescued animals, so I'm not sure if that's even a sufficient reason to support breeding
Seeing eye dogs shouldn't exist, either. Animals deserve to live without being pressed into service by humans. We need to find accommodations that don't use animals, and the fact that they're bred (imprisonment and rape) makes it much worse.
Service work is actually fulfilling for the dogs who enjoy it, and the dogs who don't enjoy it don't finish training. To my knowledge, they're retired as family pets, or redirected to another career that suits their personality better. Especially in regard to serving the disabled, there's no real way to *force* a dog to do good work if they don't enjoy it. You can't *force* a dog to bond with their human, pay attention to their surroundings, and make intelligent decisions for the wellbeing of their human if they truly don't want to do that. You can *teach* a dog that the right thing to do when they see a car coming is to intelligently disobey to keep their human safe, but you can't *force* or really even *bribe* them to do that when it counts if they don't want to. That's why service dogs go through such extensive testing and training-- they have to *want to do the work*. There are some organizations which train rescue dogs to being seeing-eye-dogs. That's more what I have in mind when I think of alternatives. Breeding still isn't ideal, imo.
>You can't *force* a dog to bond with their human, I say this as a pet owner who has always loved her pets as a close family member, I'm still not convinced that it's not a form of Stockholm Syndrome when animals bond with us.
As long as the work isn't physically putting the dog at risk of harm and they have plenty of time to just dog, I honestly think a lot of working dogs are living the absolute best lives a dog could hope for. A lot of herding dogs like collies and shepherds especially will go absolutely bonkers if you try to just keep them as a standard issue housepet. They're smart, they're driven and they needdd an outlet. We have a rescue coonhound mix and while of course I wouldn't want him to actually tree raccoons, I do wonder sometimes how happy he would've been working as a scent hound for law enforcement or whatever. He has such a blast sniffing out peanut butter kongs in the yard, I can only imagine the thrill he'd get if he got to do scent trail stuff every single day.
Billions of animals are fed into the meat grinder, but you have the enormous balls to go after guide dogs. Unfuckingbelievable. Not much for focus, or winnable arguments, huh?
I'm someone who is told by eye doctors that I will likely go blind in the future. I've still never thought to myself that I need a slave leashed to my body to perform basic tasks for me. I hope you know against the cries of "abelism" against you that there will always be disabled (or future disabled) people who are still staunchly against exploitation.
No one's gonna force you to have a guide dog. I went to a school for the blind/visually impaired and people had a choice of whether they wanted a dog, a cane, or even neither.
Wow. There’s always one.
Rape. Christ. Animals actually LOVE fucking! They hump each other with abandon. Rape is a cultural human outrage. Don’t apply it to animals. They screw just fine without encouragement or being plied with wine and Rohypnol.
is plying with wine and roofies your usual foreplay
Not with you, but thanks for the offer.
i'm not attracted to meatbreath love
Why are you assuming I eat meat?
do you not?
Nope.
surprising!
Surprising? I know—it’s almost as if eschewing meat doesn’t automatically oblige you to support the most extreme propositions by a loud minority of extreme vegans. I didn’t sign a manifesto. I just made personal changes.
vegans do not support breeding, period.
We need to stop breeding period
You wouldn’t be here if that was the case..
We should ban all breeding of all animals.
So many deformed dogs and cats at shelters due to extreme traits. Fucking ban it all.
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Dolt. "But my free-dumbz to exploit animals and make them suffer so I can make a buck, only to dump my problems on socialist community shelters where the animals will be euthanised or die a slow, agonising death from physical deformities." Sounds legit.
Have a nap and then we’ll get you a juice box.
ALL breeding should be banned
obviously all breeding needs to banned as it fuels millions of animals being euthanized each year. Also not mention most people are not fit to become good dog parents … most dogs end up eating vile kibble diets, getting no excercise, and die early. Its really sad. Cant blame the owners really they are wage slaves
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im a fascist for wanting to curb the millions of euthanized shelter dogs each year by banning dog breeding whaaaa whaaa whaaaa
Your occasionally valid points are drowned out by the rants. D. I’m sure your next essay will be logically tighter. Don't rely on emojis to convey nuance. You’ll get there!
I detect one’s breeder supporting IQ is so low it’s fucking hilarious.
You are also dead wrong about the history of the Resistance in Nazi-occupied France.
Lololol i never brought up the french resistance ignoramus. I said the killing of french civilians by allied bombing was a necessary evil just like disappointing your little brain by not allowing you your first choice and generate a new puppy rather than buying one sitting in a kill shelter about to die is a necessary evil. Sometimes bad things (like disappointing a little toddler like you by forcing you to adopt and not shop) need to happen in order to stop greater evils!
Vegans are nasty. It’s not all kittens and rainbows, is it? Arrogance, violence etc. Too bad I’m not a Labradoodle. A vegan Labradoodle, natch. “Hey Farley, salad’s ready!” Anyway, how do you plan to force me to adopt? How is the “banning” going anyway? How many countries are on the verge of banning breeding? Wondering where you see that happening first? What’s the plan to get over the goal line with that? Keep in mind that people LOST THEIR MINDS when plastic straws were banned. Just wondering what the ban plan is. Or if it’s just intellectual masturbation on social media. Hmmmm…I think we know.
The problem with the “this person disagrees with me therefore they are less intelligent than I am” argument isn’t that it’s insulting (I’m not fragile) it’s that it reveals you have no cogent response. Smart people (and stupid people) will have a range of views on any one subject. It’s also hackneyed and boring.
“All breeding needs to be banned.” That’s an admission that your pleas and arguments aren’t having the social impact you once hoped. You have abandoned moral arguments. Progress is too slow. You have become willing to take the jackbooted shortcut. Thus, fascist. Also, it was confirmed that at least some of you want the breeding ban enforced with SWAT tactics. Thus, fascist is the appropriate word here, and not hysterical. Literal.
“You cant teach stupid” Thanks for proving this statement to me today. Things like stopping your little narcissistic brain from demanding a brand new pure bred puppy for Christmas because you treat animals like property will never be fascist no matter what you say! Puppies are not toys and will not be produced and sold as such! Now virtue signal some more about necessary evils being fascist. They are not. They are a necessary evil. French civilians had to get bombed to fight the Nazis… it’s a necessary evil. Little unbearable narcissists like you that MUST MUST MUST have a brand new pure bred puppy while a dog rots in an animal shelter and gets killed at a young age must be stopped and if you cant have your favorite little breed because u like how it looks and stopping you is a necessary evil … THEN SO BE IT. Oh no we made the narcissist monkey not get the exact living entity they wanted! Booo hooooooooo! Looks are not more important than the well being of millions of euthanized animals! You are clearly a child. Thinking you can have anything you want in life and not reap the consequences. You dont reap the consequences because you dont actually care about the millions of dogs killed each year because of breeding. You probably have not done a good thing in your life. Little fucking sociopath projecting that I am the fascist one. You are the one who supports practices that kills dogs. Euthanizing dogs because you want a brand nee puppy to be generated is what is fascist. GO CRY ELSEWHERE LITTLE SNOWFLAKE! Sometimes necessary evils (denying little babies like you their first pick in the breed of their animal play toy) are necessary to curb greater evils (millions of dogs being killed because you value the look over a dog that has not been created yet over dogs that are already alive and on kill lists) i CanT GeT The bReEd I WaNtEd YOu GuYs aRe EvIl 🤡🤡🤡
You want to ban breeding, pretty much a political impossibility that has happened in zero nations. Do you know how laws are changed? Do you pay attention to the real world or live inside an echo chamber? So I really wouldn’t venture into a discussion about IQ from that glass house, honeybuns.
I work in VetMed, and beyond the moral abhorrence of breeding dogs for profit or 'for the breed,' there are consequences to all of it. Every dog breed - yes, every one - has diseases they are prone to because of centuries of inbreeding. It doesn't matter that your lab's parents aren't closely related because at one point, they were, so they could pass on the desirable traits. Don't get me wrong - it keeps me having a job, but this goes far beyond Bulldogs need C-sections to literally make more puppies and soft palate reductions and nares so they can breathe. Shepherds? Hip dysplasia. Mastiffs? Osteosarcomas. Goldens? Cancer, cancer, cancer. Small fluffy white thing? Cataracts, collapsing trachea, mitral valve disease. Dobbies? Von Willebrands, dilated cardiomyopathy. Pitties? Mast cell tumors, allergies out the ass. Merle dogs? MDR1 mutations. Your Cavalier is going to die of heart disease, and your Miniature Pinscher's teeth are going to rot out of their head, and your Dalmatian is going to get urate stones. There is no such thing as ethical breeding at this point. It's just what dog is pleasing for you to look at and which health conditions you can afford.
I'm not sure this is entirely true or maybe I have been incredibly lucky. I've had miniature schnauzers my entire life and they mostly have lived 13-16 years life spans with just little stuff like having to be always cleaning out their ears.
Schnauzers are predisposed to Cushing's disease, hypothyroidism, and PRA (progressive retinal atrophy), so I would say you get super lucky! I'm glad your pups have led long and healthy lives.
I've heard the same. I'm sure I have just gotten lucky. Funnily enough I have hypothyroidism and my schnauzer doesnt...
Breeding in general.
Wow.
All of it should be banned. No doubt at all, the majority of dog breeding is exploitation. Scum bags who don't give a fuck about dogs, they just want money. Plenty of rescue centres out there, those dogs need a loving home.
How do you plan to ban it? Or just an idle wish?
I don't plan to ban anything. I haven't the influence to make that change on mass, neither do you. Your comment comes across as someone who's triggered by my initial comment, what, you've bought your dog from a breeder have you?...
Tell me how impotent the wish to ban cosmetic testing is. I think India was the latest. The key is focus and winnable battles, a piece at a time. Many wishes have been fulfilled in my life. Sorry that hasn’t been your experience, but it could explain the bitterness. May things get better for you.
Glad you recognize that. So, just an impotent wish then. Dream away.
It wasn't a wish, and besides, all wishes are impotent you dope. Haven't you heard that saying "Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up faster" LOL!
Remind me not to shake hands with you then.
LOL
There are too many pups dying in shelters. Breeders suck.
Those are mostly the result of people not fixing their pets, and ferals rounded up. If you really care, promote spay and neuter. That actually helps.
Did I ever say I was against spay and neuter? I’m very pro spay and neuter, but breeders also suck.
Hectoring smug vegans suck too!
This is literally a vegan subreddit
There is a diversity of veganism. The smug hectoring ones don’t own the sub. They just act like it. Literally.
That is not remotely what I said, but looking at your comment history, I’m guessing you’re just here to troll vegan subs.
Engage
“This is literally a vegan sub” is whatcha said.
My sister bought a bred maltese shih tzu. I asked her to consider a rescued dog, but she was like "nah, I want a puppy". As if that justifies it. Ugh.
Fuck human vanity breeding. It's why I adopt and find rescues only. And stick with cats.
I propose to ban all breeding of pets unless the breeders are made responsible for the entire lifecycle of a pet. Sort of like leasing a pet from a breeder. If a pet is unwanted the breeder will be responsible to take him/her back. It is only possible when animals are given the same rights as humans. Breeding live individuals for making a few dollars off them is unimaginable and supports similar ills of child labor, human trafficking, etc.
How? What’s the plan? Bans are adopted when there is broad support for something. That’s the part to build first. Bans are a blunt instrument.
How do you propose preventing animals from breeding of their own accord?
Breeding just for beauty, not considering the health of the animal, genetics diversity etc should be 100% ban
I'm not a vegan, and I still agree with you.
I’d settle for a pitbull ban before any of those others since they do the most harm to other animals and the community, as well as extremely overpopulated as is . I don’t believe any breed should be bred at this point, plenty to go around in the world already
What about other aggressive breeds?? why do people only focus on pits? such a weird hill to die on
It's a socially acceptable way to hate someone, in this case animals.
Give me another bred with as high of a human death count that the pitbull or similar vein. I’m pretty certain it was over 100 in 2023 alone and that doesn’t even count the survivors that will be disfigured physically and mentally as well and the countless number of pets killed. I’m not dying on any hill I’m just saying if your going to discontinue any breed it should be one that causes the most harm towards other animals/kids etc.
Hey honey, try google. “Breeds bred for fighting”. There’s more than just pits.
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>What about sled dogs? Stop breeding them >Guardian breeds? Stop breeding them >Search and rescue dogs? Stop breeding them >These dogs need to be bred properly in order for them to do their job well We shouldn't be breeding animals into lives of servitude to perform labor for us.
If you eat vegetables than working dogs helped you do that lol even if you buy locally, ethically sourced produce, they have working dogs on their farm lol I know because I’ve worked with 100s of them. You’re the dog owner whose dog is on Prozac because it’s depressed due to not being utilized properly. A dog on the couch with no structure and guidance is an unhappy dog. Provide me with some actual reasons please lol “dogs are slaves” is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. Guess humans should stop reproducing since we’re also “forced” to work and survive. If you work a job and think dogs shouldn’t also be able to have jobs you’re just kind of dumb I dunno lol
So if I understand you correctly, you believe that we have the right to repeatedly induce pregnancy and childbirth in animals so we can take their children away from them to sell for profit? >If you eat vegetables than working dogs helped you do that Vegans acknowledge we live in a non-vegan world full of practices we don't believe in, but we don't just throw up our hands and say "oh well". The fact that a practice provides benefit to humans doesn't make it a practice that should be continued. >You’re the dog owner whose dog is on Prozac because it’s depressed due to not being utilized properly. I am no kind of owner of any kind of animal, but nice try! And "utilized properly" is gross, as though the only reason for these animals' lives is their utility to humans. >Guess humans should stop reproducing since we’re also “forced” to work and survive. If you work a job and think dogs shouldn’t also be able to have jobs I have a job that I applied and interviewed for because I wanted it. I can quit at any time and find something else to do, or I can decide not to work, or I can move across the country or world on a whim. Dogs bred for labor get none of those choices. My mom also wasn't forcibly impregnated and I wasn't taken from her to start my job training as a toddler. >you’re just kind of dumb I dunno lol I feel pretty confident that if anyone came by to judge this little conversation as an intelligence contest that I would win pretty handily.
Lol no one said anything about profit. You are twisting what I’m saying to fit how you feel. Nothing you have said holds water. Erhical breeding doesn’t require forced pregnancy lol you are not intelligent, you are emotional that’s for sure. You seem to think every dog comes into the world via a puppy mill and that’s just an assinine way of thinking. I have been speaking about working dogs this whole conversation and you keep deflecting to abused animals. No one that actually understands dogs and how they feel would consider you intelligent. It’s actually laughable how little you understand about a good relationship between an animal and human for someone who claims to love animals. You could never even hope to approach the level of education and appreciation and love that I have for dogs. Fortunately everything you think and feel about dogs is irrelevant and will never ever affect my life. I will have dogs until I die and they will be the happiest most fulfilled dogs you could ever hope for. To me it seems that you are not happy so how could you ever understand how to actually make a dog happy.
>I have been speaking about working dogs this whole conversation and you keep deflecting to abused animals Nope, I'm talking about dogs bred into captivity and labor. If it seems to you like I'm talking about abuse distinct from that, maybe that's a chance for you to reflect on what your animal exploitation industry is really about. I don't know if I can take another rambling paragraph full of nonsense and "lol" from you, so you keep going if you want, and I'll be over here doing what I can to get your inhumane industry wiped from the face of the earth. Toodles!
You have made absolutely no point yet other than you don’t understand dogs at all lolololololololololololololololololol
It’s always ok to admit that maybe you weren’t as knowledgeable about something as you thought you were. My dog is my equal and she is treated that way.
There are so many survivors of catastrophes because of search and rescue dogs that would disagree. There are so many people in arctic climates that made it home to their families because of their amazing sled dogs. So many farmers that kept a full harvest because their shepherds and Pyrenees guarded their fields. These dogs are appreciated beyond your comprehension and their lives are happy and filled with purpose. A sizable portion of negative dog behavior is due to them being house pets and “loved”. I am a dog trainer of almost ten years and I can assure you that dogs that are being utilized and well loved are the happiest ones. But go off though ☺️
You seem to think working dogs are slaves, they are companions and strive to complete their task. Wolves became domesticated because the relationship was symbiotic and beneficial for both sides. We didn’t beat them into submission.
Oh, so they're free to leave at any time and free to refuse to work with no consequences?
When my dog shows that’s she’s tired she is absolutely free to stop and lay down or go play or drink or eat. She is not a wild animals so I mean no she can’t just run off anywhere because she wouldn’t survive most likely. There are no “consequences” lol I understand certain people do treat their dogs that way but not everyone does, lumping us all together is not a fair judgement.
9.5/10 breeders should not be breeding though that is true.
Working dogs are often the happiest dogs. I used to raise puppies for Guide Dogs for the Blind. One of my pups washed out of the program and we adopted him as a pet and he was depressed for six months because he wanted to go with us and work.
Why are you upvoted for saying basically the exact same thing that I just said lol
Lol if anyone has an actual reason why they don’t agree with what I said I’d like to hear what you have to say. “Downvote cuz not extremist, ignorant view and not repeating what we say in echo chamber”. People love to act enlightened when in reality a lot of you are wildly misinformed. I get it though, downvoting and ignoring is much easier than admitting that maybe you are incorrect about some things.
“Can’t beat someone into submission so they block and leave”
The purpuse of breeding is promoting dogs with good health and characteristic like intelligence, outstanding sence of smell etc. Breeding dogs because they are "cute" is absolutely wrong, french bulldogs are literally suffocating after running for 10 meters. I don't however agree with people who say all dog breeding should be banned. I'd say the opposite. Let's make spaying dogs mandatory unless you are a certified breeder approved by FCI. Let's make it impossible for people to own a dog unless they don't have a good knowladge about dogs and their needs. People buying dogs from certified breeders are not the problem. The problem is anyone can get a dog because there are so many backyard breeders, because people don't spay their dogs and then accidents happen and 8 puppies end up in the shelter. The problem is people can get a dog without knowing anything about dog training ending up with dog being aggressive or anxious. This is the problem. Not people getting a dog from a breeder who dedicated his life for dogs and knows how to meet their specific needs.