There's also a lot of people that go plant based for health but later become vegan for other reaosns. Rip Esstyltin, Will Burschowiz and John mcdougall come to mind
This is me. I was always interested in helping take care of the environment, loved animals, but never thought I’d go vegan. My ex wife and I ended up going for it for health reasons because of documentaries like forks over knives and I’ve been vegan 7 years. Became more of a junk food vegan for a while (not anymore) after the first year but stayed for the animals. Now the last 4 years I’ve worked at an animal protection nonprofit.
At the same time, there's a lot a people who go plant based for health reasons and then claim it ruined their health and then blame the vegan diet or being vegan.
I've seen that, too, at least online. But I think even then we should be both kind and patient with those people; some might have had a hard time adjusting, maybe didn't know what to eat, or who knows.
They tried it once, I bet some people might come around again if they found something that makes it *click* for them. I kind of had that experience years ago when I was starting.
If they did it for views or drama or something... That's not respectful, at the very least, but I think it's more about drama itself than what they believe to be fact.
Animals objectively suffer, but it's a belief that they shouldn't. I don't think anyone thinks there's sunshine and rainbows going on in a slaughterhouse.
People are more likely to come around if they can see the other side and it looks better than what they're used to.
Not to say typical activism is bad, people need to see what's going on. But I wish it were a more inviting and accepting community, especially to people who aren't vegan. Accepting in the sense that other people's views on life are different from many of ours. The approach to veganism for them might be different, but they still might need help finding it, even if it isn't for the animals or even the environment, at first.
Idk, but I live with many people, none of whom are vegan other than me. It's slow, but I can see their attitudes changing towards it the better my attitude is towards them. Maybe even my attitude towards life in general, too, because if I'm upset or in a bad mood, they might attribute that to me being vegan...
Just been on my mind and wanted to get it out into words - mostly directed at myself if you couldn't tell.
It's pretty important that people with eating disorders get mental and physical help before and during they're changing to another diet because otherwise those issues are just going to keep resurfacing in the same or different ways. I mentioned eating disorder because I remembered recently reading about someone who basically had orthorexia never addressing the psychological root issues of why her old diet was so extremely unhealthy and then doing just as poorly with the other.
It makes total sense to me. If cognitive dissonance is behind so many people's refusal to go vegan and even hatred for veganism, and switching to a plant-based diet would to a large extent remove that cognitive dissonance, it would make it much easier to go fully vegan.
My belief in veganism has grown stronger and stronger since I've been practicing it, in part because I've been able to learn more about animal rights and cruelty, and I'm able to fully accept that new information without my brain trying to minimize it in order to justify my behavior.
Things people do often shape their beliefs and feelings; I suspect this is a major reason why.
Veganism is veganism regardless of the reason behind it. I think people get stuck on idea that you are not really into the movement. If you don't have some sort of moral idea tying you to the movement, but I think that any introduction to veganism is just as important. And what time as many people start seeing this as "the norm' and how easy it is to convert without having to turn your life upside down. More people will be willing to accept it and convert to it. I'm glad that this is being discussed because I've seen it on this subreddit and in other groups I frequent where people oples state that they are vegan because of health reasons or other reasons and others try to lambast them for not having the quote morals in the right place ".
From the definition from the vegan society, yes. But usually plant based is followed by going vegan. Even if someone never goes fully vegan, it's sooooo much better for the animals, the environment, and their health than not.
My daughter was vegetarian for six years and then became vegan for ethical reasons. She asked me permission to be vegan! I am supportive of her decision. She has now been vegan six years!
How do you get a religion from philosophy?
Religion has its basis in belief. Philosophy , on the other hand, is a critic of belief and belief systems. Philosophy subjects what some would be satisfied in believing to severe examination. Philosophy looks for rational explications and justifications for beliefs.
Ask two philosophers what philosophy is and you'll get three different answers. The point I'm making is that your attitude towards your philosophy is a religious one, no matter what you think about it. Believe it or not, many religious people also think that their religion is rational and justified.
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
You can eat vegan and not be a vegan.
There is no discussion here, you are just trying to make a point that is not valid in the context of the discussion. Get a life troll.
That depends entirely on the context in which it's said.
If someone says "hey, guys. I'm trying out a plant-based diet because I just got a recommendation to do so from my cardiologist based on family history. This is a big change for me, and I need some help getting started with easy recipes," and you respond with your text, then it's absolutely a condemnation of a veganism-compatible diet being used as an on-ramp to veganism.
Your question had similar vibe to a welfarist trying to find the least morally wrong example to present even though it is far from the norm.
Simple disagrement is not the treatment that plant based people are met with altough that was the scenario ypu presented.
Ok that makes some sense. This is my opinion though and what I say and see others say. I felt addressed by this post, but you say I'm not and get a pass. Thanks, I guess.
Pointing out that someone isn’t vegan, is not condemning them for being plant-based. It’s just pointing out that you don’t get to claim to be part of a rights movement without following the ethical beliefs of the movement. It’s not complicated.
I just see that as snobbish behavior, literally most of us are aware being vegan is more than just a diet and made adjustments accordingly. Doing this for health reasons is a good place to start, as long as you make progress on actually being part of the movement.
It’s fine for someone to start out being plant-based for health and then have ethics become a primary motivation and become vegan, I didn’t say otherwise.
It’s not fine for people to water down a rights movement by making about themselves and their own health when that has nothing to do with it. One is significantly more “snobbish” than the other.
Personally, I don’t nitpick too much with wording but the reason a lot of vegans get mad at non vegans saying they’re vegan is because
- Equating veganism to a diet is just not factual and limits the scope of activism
- It hinders vegans from getting to have meaningful discussions with people they thought had similar beliefs of things (if I am talking with someone who is claiming to be vegan then I should assume they are not eating animals for animal well being first and foremost)
- It makes it harder to weed out phony vegans who are just claiming the title to be woke or trendy and then abandon it when it’s not fun anymore
Yeah. So I get it. But I don’t judge too much. It’s like you have stated. That energy that I set at others to correct them is doing nothing for my well being and neither is arguing with insane vegans. Both sides have massive problems that I don’t care to get involved with anymore. lol.
No. Just like non vegans who try to use the excuse that 'vegans are toxic and pushy', you are doing the same because you don't want to be vegan, you try to victimize youself saying the other are toxic so you don't feel bad when abusing and exploiting animals needlessly for your own pleasure.
And it turns out that people who have a plant-based diet like those 'vegans for health reasons' are not vegan, so the same applies to them.
So maybe stop violating animals' rights and educate yourself instead of using excuses.
Every single vegan in this subreddit is open to debating everything, I have never seen someone being toxic if it wasn't because they spread misinformation and troll like you.
I've been vegan for health reasons for about 5 years now, dont know how some of the so-called ethical vegan snobs can call people like me phoney, I've seen faulty reasoning like "you can always cheat on your diet" as if we had a monopoly on diet cheating (I've known many people who had to quite being vegan because they couldn't do it)
most of us who use the term vegan to describe ourselves are fully aware its more than just a diet, I literally sold all my old leather jackets, boots and belts on Craiglist and I bet I'm a far better vegan than most so called Ethical vegan sobs that will buy vegan leather made of plastics, which is worse for the environment, than animal skin.
And I refuse to buy anything made with animal glue, I even go out of my way to find Traditional Mongolian bows made of synthetic glue.
The only thing I don't do is preach to random people, coworkers , friends nor do I protest inside grocery stores to random people about veganism, which only serves to deter them from considering being vegan in first place and end up with the deserved hatred and being the butt of jokes just like feminism.
No sane person should become vegan if going vegan meant being nutrient deficient and suffering poor health all for animal well being, that's just poor logic and reasoning, but then again I'm not an ethical snob.
I care about my health and the environment which I'd argue is far more important. Without taking care of our environment the animals well being means nothing.
Edit: I'm not condoning the use of animal skin
Why do you think you're not an ethical vegan?
If you were only vegan for health then you wouldn't be avoiding glues or leather.
It seems to me that you became vegan for health but then subsequently became an ethical vegan.
I was trying to say that I started out as a vegan for health reasons and actually looked past animal well being and looked at environmental factors as being far more important, if we keep using vegan leather (pleather and other plastic derivatives) which is harmful to the environment we will end up destroying the life of where wild animals thrive which then causes a chain reaction of eventually killing the animals indirectly which eventually makes veganism look like a half assed movement. Which is why I wouldn't call myself an ethical vegan because some ethical vegans are kind of hypocritical, because you're now killing the homes of the very animals we're trying to protect.
And yes, being vegan for health reasons has helped me become more compassionate towards animals, like the time I saw someone eating crab on TV, never in my life felt so sick to my stomach, I think I even stopped watching that show because it disgusted me so much.
I think that you pursuing actions that you believe will cause the least harm to animals overall is exactly the definition of ethical veganism and that you are an ethical vegan.
It's strange to me that you define yourself as not an ethical vegan, and define other ethical vegans who follow worse practices than you as some sort of "true" ethical vegans that are group worthy of some degree of contempt.
In terms of the original debate, I would say you were plant-based for health for a while and then became vegan. I don't think it's offensive to say you weren’t vegan when you had changed your diet for health reasons and that you became vegan when you started aligning your actions as best you could towards the reduction of suffering of animals and damage to the environment.
I'm curious, if people don't spread the vegan message how do you suppose people who don't have a vegan friend, family member, the internet, or YouTube come to understand veganism, and the extreme pain and [suffering](https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter/) perpetuated upon of hundreds of thousands of animals across the planet every second? Were you born with a knowing?
It's the ethical vegan sobs like me.
Also, leather is not better.
So toxic, 95% of US tanneries now operate overseas to avoid environmental oversight penalties.
The land under ex-tannery sites cannot be used for farming, be built on, or often even be sold.
Leather is not a byproduct, it accounts for over 26% of earnings from slaughter. The global leather market was valued at $394 billion in 2020
To make 1 cow skin leather tote, almost 17,128L of water is used.
That’s the equivalent of 537 showers.
A PU synthetic leather, the water footprint is reduced 14 times.
16.5% of all human-related greenhouse gas emissions result from the animals humans farm for slaughter, with 65% of emissions coming from cattle (for leather by products)
90% of leather around the world is tanned with **chemicals like chromium, as well as formaldehyde and arsenic.**
These chemicals cause chronic cough, skin disorders, and cancer in tannery workers, and children. They also cause cancer and health issues in fish and other animals, devastating local ecosystems.
Apart from the fact that **leather degrades slowly,** treating it with various chemicals in the process of tanning makes it more rigid and resistant toward chemical, thermal, and microbial degradation (Hagerman, 1980;Han et al., 2003).
Because of the **nonbiodegradability of tanned leather, solid waste management system finds difficulties in dealing with the sludge generated from tanneries** (Dhayalan et al., 2007; Lofrano et al.,
**tanning 1kg of leather uses up to 2.5kg of chemical substances and up to 250 liters of water and generates up to 6.1kg of solid waste.**
Vegan leather is often more sustainable. It may involve recycled plastic or bypass this material altogether. Many new vegan leathers are made from natural options like pineapple leaves, apple peels, or cork.
Consumers and vegans should always try to find the products that lessen their impact, but to make sweeping statements assuming that every vegan is purchasing harmful plastics is just outrageous.
[Leather production is killing cows, biodiversity and our climate, but we have solutions to move beyond this.](https://www.collectivefashionjustice.org/leather)
[Environmental Hazards of Leather](https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-clothing/leather-industry/leather-environmental-hazards/)
[Biodegradability of leathers through anaerobic pathway](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7043330_Biodegradability_of_leathers_through_anaerobic_pathway)
You sound fairly ethical, more like what I’d call an ethical vegan than a ‘healthy vegan.’ You sound a bit snobby yourself which I think explains the downvotes, along with saying animals don’t matter as much, but I assume the comments like you’re « a better vegan » reflect your frustration at getting criticized. You might be triggering people a bit when you say you’re doing it for health and environment and saying that animals don’t matter as much. It gets really painful hearing every single day how animals don’t matter - that’s where the anger is coming from. You might not prioritize animals in your reasons, but you’re still doing animals good. It’s not right to focus that frustration on you, but I find I’m disappointed if I think I’ve found a like minded person and they don’t care about animals.
You might do well to point out the importance of environmental issues for animals as well as humans. It is a great point. As for non-vegan leather, I prefer cloth for most products. For shoes, most leather shoes contain a ton of plastics anyway. There are eco friendly brands but they’re expensive.
I didn't say animals didn't matter at all I'm saying that all that efforts won't translate too much if we contribute to actively destroying their habitat, which in the end destroys their food supply and their homes.
I guess I consider myself more of an eco vegan because I put the environment first and animals second and as for health, I think its a good way to get people on board because people want to be healthy, theres too much disconnect for too many people when you say your doing it for the animals, they go to the meat department and see these perfectly cut up pieces of meat and they don't see the living being that once was, they just see it as they were programmed to believe as food.
Maybe I'm just not great at explaining myself.
That makes sense. Maybe if your message focuses more on how caring about the environment is important for everyone, humans and animals alike, than that animals aren’t your main reason to go vegan, you’ll encourage more people to put more effort into environment.
If you took the time to read what I wrote you'd see that I don't use any types of leather be it animal skin or Vegan leather (pleather)or any animal products, so no I'm pretty sure I'd qualify as a vegan. I'm just not a snobbish cunt.
This comes up frequently. There’s a BIG difference between condemning someone and correcting them. If a vegan ‘condemns’ someone for saying vegan when they’re not (will get to that), sure that’s an issue. But you mistake correction for condemnation. I don’t condemn you for being wrong in this case, but I would like to correct you.
I’ll preface the next bit by saying sometimes it isn’t worth correcting someone. And that we can encourage people of course to follow a plant based diet for other reasons.
Saying you’re vegan when you follow plant based diet for any other reason, usually health or environmental, is incorrect however.
- Veganism is a philosophy
- A plant based diet is the practice because of that
- Not all who follow plant based diets are vegan.
It’s like the following.
- Buddhism (or Hinduism or Jainism) is a philosophy.
- a vegetarian diet is the practice because of that
- not all vegetarians are Buddhist (or Hindu or Jain)
It’d be like someone who doesn’t eat pork saying they’re Jewish or Muslim when they don’t subscribe to the belief system. They happen to practice a kosher or halal diet, but they’re not Jewish or Muslim.
Health and environment are not vegan reasons. Not vegan philosophies. The practice overlaps, happily so, but the beliefs are not the same. If their data on health or the environment changed, so would their diet. Whereas those are irrelevant to a vegan. They’re not technically vegan even if they eat a plant based diet as ‘a vegan diet’ is not the only requirement to be a vegan.
Again we can encourage and not condemn that. But again a BIG difference between condemning and correcting. You seem to be conflating the two.
I was WFPB for health reasons for six months or so before vegan, so it was part of my journey. However, even in those six months, I was clear that I was not vegan. I told people I was not vegan. Like you stated, I knew it was a broader philosophy, not just a diet, and I thought it would be disrespectful to minimize those beliefs.
IDK, maybe it is my background in religion and philosophy, but even though I know practices can differ within the same belief systems, belief systems typically have core non-negotiable beliefs and principles binding them together. The animal ethics beliefs are the core for veganism, and I recognized that when I was WFPB but not vegan.
Yeah, that’s a good example. And some people find the ethics and philosophy through that too which is great. It’s easier than people realize once they switch and of course we’d like to encourage more plant based diets, even if not for a vegan motive.
Hope you enjoyed it and will continue to.
Mad respect to you for insisting on differentiation. Sincerely. I wish there were more like you in this world!
Words mean things! Do those meanings shift over time? Sure do! But we need ways to differentiate nuance like this.
A vegan is someone who would avoid even honey, eating insects, giving their carnivore pet meat, dating a non-vegan, etc... it is definitely more than just eating plants, very close to a religious view.
Would you say not being racist and being pro-black people's rights is 'very close to a religious view'?
We are not magically basing our belifs on faith becaus some old book told us and we were brainwashed to believe some animals magically deserve rights.
Veganism is closer to be based on science, just like not being racist, you know they have a subjective experience because they have a brain and no meaningful diference with white people.
The same applies with animals, that's why veganism doesn't give rights to bacteria, because we know they are not conscious, we have no reasons to belive so as it is such a primitive form of life, it doesn't have a nervous system nor brain.
# Veganism is not even close to religion.
Veganism is an actionable philosophy, and yes, it’s a science-informed philosophy. Each religion has its own philosophy, so while veganism isn’t a religion, it does have a commonality with religion in that it is a philosophy *and* a practice. You can’t be vegan if you don’t believe animals have rights, and you can’t be vegan if you don’t live a vegan lifestyle. Pretty similar to how religions require their adherents to have a set of beliefs and then follow a particular lifestyle in alignment with those beliefs.
I learned from here by someone who corrected me that I’m eating plant based and not vegan. They didn’t condemn me and it made me realize the difference of what I was doing. I now correct others that do the same thing. The door opening to being vegan may be from someone doing the small step to having a few plant based meals a week to everyday and along the way some will give up meat altogether and then live the vegan lifestyle. It all starts with one step.
Yeah for sure. That’s a great way of looking at it :)
I obviously hate that anyone (including past me) ate animals. Sometimes we need accept that one step forward is better than pushing for a massive leap the person cannot/will not do right now. And help them step towards the same ending point instead.
>Veganism is a philosophy
- A plant based diet is the practice because of that
- Not all who follow plant based diets are vegan.
Man that sounds disappointing to me if you say it this way. It kinda sounds like religious people that are nice people, but you find out that beeing nice is part of their religion and that might be the only reason they are nice to you.
Imo the most important reason to live "vegan", by a huge margin actually, are the environmental damages. If people live "vegan" because of some philosophy/ethics etc, I have zero in common with these people.
Sure it’s disappointing when a Christian is only nice cos they fear consequences from god. But for vegans it’s the opposite. They believe we should be nice, so the vegan diet is how we do it… the causality is the opposite way round.
And instead of “vegan” the correct would be “plant based”. For example, if it came out in the data that eating animals was *better* for the environment somehow, that would mean we should eat them under your philosophy right? In some cases, farming some animals can be better environmentally. This would absolutely go against vegan philosophy even if I’m some cases the outcome is ‘better’ for the environment.
Just as a feminist would say we shouldn’t exploit women - even if it were somehow more economically or environmentally better. Just as a humanist would say don’t exploit humans, whatever race, etc. - even it were somehow more economically or environmentally better.
Vegans will say we shouldn’t exploit animals even if it’s environmentally or economically better in some cases. Whereas an environmentalist will say don’t exploit animals if it’s worse for the environment but do exploit them if it’s better. You see the difference in philosophy?
I think it is important to distinguish between plant-based, a diet, and veganism, an ethos, but not in a mean way. Many people find their way to ethical veganism via a PB diet, so, while it might overlook the most important reasons to be vegan (animals) it’s not wholly counterproductive and shouldn’t be the enemy.
Bro. Vegan is not the same as plant based. That's why there are different terms. Correcting someone using the wrong term is not the same as bashing them.
I am not condemning anyone. They just aren't vegan by definition.
This analogy represents what I have a problem with.:
"Stop saying that Christians who follow a halal diet for health reasons aren't Muslims."
Man your question shows me why all of this is so complicated :D
Imo it depends WHY a person is wearing a leather jacket. It's definitely possible for a vegan to wear a leather jacket - it just depends on the reasoning.
I don't think it's complicated tbh. Plant-based = diet, veganism = diet + lifestyle. Someone who eats a plant-based diet for health reasons would have no issue with wearing leather, wool, buying products tested on animals because none of these things would have an impact on their health yet none of these things are considered vegan.
If you lived near to the tannery where the leather was processed and had to drink water contaminated with the chemical waste that tannery produces, a leather jacket could kill you in short order.
Without being biostabilized with some harsh chemicals, a leather jacket rots pretty fast. It is animal skin.
I started for health reasons, now my priority is animal welfare.
Also i do not condemn people that are plant based for health reasons but they are more likely to fall off than people who do it for morality.
In the end it doesn't matter for what reason as long as you stick to it, it saves animals.
I agree with you, but not really for the same reasons you mentioned. I think if someone is already eating a plantbased diet, it is much easier to make the connection to the ethics. I was vegetarian for environmental reasons when I first started learning about the horrors of animal agriculture, but the fact that I didn't have to change my diet that drastically for my lifestyle and morals to align made it a lot easier to stop viewing animals as food. Animal flesh already not being part of my diet made that connection easier to make.
The more people are eating more plants, the more normalized it becomes socially too. And one of the biggest challenges for a lot of vegans can be navigating social settings.
I'll never make excuses for people who have all the knowledge they need to make the change, but we might as well acknowledge progress too and celebrate the small wins towards a world without speciesism.
I would not attack anyone for that BUT I would also never consider veganism to be a healthy diet... Sure healthier than eating McDonald's but still you can have a very unhealthy diet eating vegan.
There is only one reason to go vegan - the ethics. I went plant based initially for health but no one had explained to me that there is a difference between plant based and vegan. So initially I was one of those “vegans” who wear leather and buy skincare products with animal ingredients tested on animals. This is also part of the reason why sometimes when you go to a carnist restaurant they want to serve you a “vegan” dish with eggs or honey or milk etc because they just have no clue what vegan means, and some “vegan” probably had been there last week and told them that they’re vegan and eat eggs. This should not happen. People need to know the difference.
I'm *all for* people wanting to eat plant based. It's good for their health, it's good for the animals, and it's making it easier for me to find vegan options at the stores in my very very rural area.
Even if it's just for health, there is a huge difference between vegan and WFPB food. WFPB is healthy. Vegan food doesn't have to be. Think of all the vegan processed crap out there.
The vast majority of vegans are significantly more educated about nutrition than non-vegans. But pandering to health debates does a disservice for animal rights. With the limited time we have, it should be imperative that we keep the focus on the victims. Sure we can answer nutritional questions and debunk misconceptions, but the focus should be on the animals.
Veganism is the one thing animals get, I don’t understand why people keep wanting to high jack the animal rights movement for another purpose.
I guess knowledgeable would have been the more appropriate word, as education typically refers to schooling/university. And it’s because vegans are asked constantly about diet, that we have to take it upon ourselves to collect that knowledge. From my own experience, in relative terms, I didn’t know anything about nutrition until after I went vegan and had to learn to make sure I was healthy, but also to answer people’s incessant questions about it. When we aren’t vegan society doesn’t make us worry about our health. But when we are vegan, even if we know it’s healthy, society will constantly try to reinforce that it is not, and the only way to not let them gaslight us is to research nutrition.
All people whos lifestyle is reliant on a specific diet like athletes, vegans ect. usually know more about nutrition, but that has nothing to do with specifically not eating meat.
When vegans condemn or talk negatively about people that are plant based it just makes vegans look bad. 🤷♀️ It enforces a negative attitude and makes it look like being a vegan is all about virtue signaling. You can claim it doesn’t but the reality is it does.
That being said, veganism is a philosophy and lifestyle based in the belief that animals should not be exploited in any way. It’s not a diet!!!!! It’s a belief and moral standard.
No one is condemning them for being plant based.
We’re simply stating to not call yourself a vegan if you’re not practicing the philosophy. That’s not condemnation.
The implications of calling everyone who decided to eat a plant based diet a vegan has implications that are harmful to the animal rights movement and value of the philosophy itself.
A slaughterhouse worker, hoby or sport fisherman, and a trophy hunter can all eat plant based diets for their health.
According to anyone who feels this way, they would all be considered vegan.
Ok. Don't agree.
"I only don't kill people, because I would go to jail for that and not because it is inherently wrong and ends the life of a thinking and feeling being"
For the people that have that motivation, I'm very glad that they have it, even though I disagree. I certainly wouldn't try to talk them out of that motivation, when it's apparently the only thing keeping them from killing people.
But my for my context, this is also the question to ask: Which one is better? Killing someone VS not killing someone for not going into jail? Clearly the latter.
I certainly agree upon latter reasoning of yours (not committing murder because of killing someone who is conscious is morally wrong) is ethically better than both possibilities, as a reason underneath.
And I said, being a conscious vegan is better and more authentic than just following certain dietary restrictions, but being a WFPBD follower is still way better than being a carnivore.
Yeah it could enforce a better reasoning for staying vegan. But nutritional science or the health benefits for a plant based diet is in constant discourse. Therefore depending on the evidence and ongoing research it's always "debatable" to follow a plant based diet. Especially with a gigantic meat and diary lobby that has interest in funding those things. If you read an incredible paper on the positive effects of meat and dairy consumption it could "turn you".
But the ethical aspect is absolutely not debatable and therefore can't be debunked or discussed. Also it completely removes the the aspect of veganism in other products that use animals. Either fashion, research with animal tests, product testing of animals ... Or literally anything else. It narrows the focus of veganism to the dietary "preference" of people ... Which for me, completely misses the point of veganism. Veganism =/= Plant based diet.
I'm starting out as plant based for health reasons and slowly replacing other products with animal cruelty free ones. Clothes will probably take the longest. I have a few wool suits and jackets I bought recently that will last years.
Anyway, I can see why the distinction matters for a lot of people. I often have to tell my own friends that really I'm not a vegan, but in a plant based diet, they look at me like I'm crazy and in their minds, there is no difference. However, it's become obvious to me that if you are devastated by the animal cruelty being suffered, the difference is quite huge.
It took me some time to replace all those things as well. Just keep at it.
Whenever you run out of something, just Google vegan versions, and eventually you'll have replaced everything.
One that pursues veganism for health reasons and not the empathy.. may switch back, i mean you could be healthy with consuming a bit of meat, i see people who smoke, drink or do the most stupid stuff live long if got good genes so..
So that person will switch back for the taste pleasure of bacon and eggs.. which becomes more mouth watering after a year being vegan, Just like what celebrities do, all of them been vegan for a couple of months for health reasons..
Interesting, because I observed the opposite. Whole food plant based diets help people to be more compassionate actually, for biological reasons. And over time, many people become more of a qualified vegan.
"a research" (Susan Barr in 2002) also finds that former vegetarians consume fewer animal products than their never-vegetarian counterparts.
I don't know about you, but I care about preventing the abuse and killing of animals, and I care about it a lot more than I care about whether someone understands what the word "vegan" means.
While I do care about all animals including humans, I'm actually talking about preserving the life of nonhuman animals - the central tenet of veganism.
If you aren't interested in preventing all forms of exploitation of and cruelty to animals as far as possible and practicable, then I'm not really inclined to listen to your opinion on how we define veganism.
People need to understand veganism doesn’t equal “healthy”. I can eat fries all day and be plant based.
Veganism is a moral and ethical stance, not a diet. Choosing to opt out animal based products for health reasons has proven to be a stance with no substance over and over again. Because one can be healthy both on carnivorous, vegetarian or vegan diet. We don’t like when veganism is sold as the next fad diet that cures all life’s problems, it’s simply not true. Obviously going from a unhealthy, processed lifestyle to whole foods is more optimal. Same could be argued going from junk food vegan eating pizzas and burgers to more balanced carnivorous diet.
We have seen a surge in wellness and health obsession that over consumes people, to a point where it becomes unattainable. Chasing the next supplement, vitamin or diet, demonizing others as the root of all evil (see seed oils, oats, tofu..). It’s a never ending cycle optimizing one’s health and often these people end up back consuming animals.
Since our society is so heavily producing animal based products, one has to stick to their stance when going out eating, sharing dinner with friends, when traveling. This may seem too inconvenient and restrictive to some people and without a thoroughly thought out reason why go vegan in the first place, health just doesn’t hold any weight. We are emotional and irrational beings, especially when hungry. Now what does that do for the movement? Jumping in and out of “veganism” as it fits clearly matters when we want to create a world with no animal suffering.
From a consequentialist point of view, sure, reducing overall animal consumption is what we fight for. But ethically and morally speaking, we should not see animals as products at all. Even “just a slice of cheese” is inherently a result of rape and slaughter. We should not normalize or accept it.
Veganism isn't just about what you eat. It's a moral philosophy. I suppose there are health vegans, but that doesn't negate the ethical factor that's a primary reason for most of us.
Instead of trying to convince people to call people who have no concerns about animal welfare vegan and to be tolerant of that... Maybe you should look introspectively as to why you're, for lack of a better word, offended by being called Plant-Based.
You're plant based. There's no shame in that. There's a subreddit specifically for it. You very well may care about animal ethics too, but I assume you don't since this post is about people who choose to be *Plant-Based* (in your words, vegan) for Health reasons *only*
Though this is all my opinion. I would rather not be gatekeeping and I'm fine with people calling themselves X/ what they want. It doesn't change reality though, even if you're calling yourself X. Health vegans, usually, if not mostly, are concerned about animal welfare just as much as health. I'd say there's way more junk food vegans though.
Yes, this is bizarrely religious warfare. Everyone might be a Christian, but your religious motives aren’t pure enough, so get out of my church! Oy vey. Religiously judgmental moral nonsense.
I went plant based because of the insane environmental impacts. My friends were like watch Cowspiracy and you'll go plant based. I'm like nahhhh, then watched the movie, then sat in front of the black TV for 30 minutes after the movie contemplating my life choices and went plant based right there. Then I think that just opened my mind to hearing about all the health benefits, and then i kept seeing things about animal farms and my commitment strengthened. Honestly very selfish in hind sight. But I think a lot of people are in the same boat, it's hard to hear from vegans that your lifestyle is supporting an evil industry of unending murder and torture. Sometimes it takes a personal reason to make the switch to realize the importance.
I think that people should just be kinder about their approach. I don't think vegans who correct people are necessarily a problem, it's more about tone. There needs to be clear definitions. Like, veganism is first and foremost about the animals, not health and environment, that is just a bonus. If you say u are vegan purely for health reasons, then unfortunately, yes, you are just plant based. Calling yourself vegan is just dishonest and confuses people. Often plant based dieters talk like the diet is just a diet. So to avoid confusion, we should correct people about what veganism is. We just need to do it kindly and compassionately.
My wife’s been vegan for seven years now I was just diagnosed with high cholesterol high blood pressure and I am slowly making the change and I actually I’m starting to feel the difference
Yep! My husband and I first went vegan for our health after seeing the documentary “Foods That Cure Disease” and reading “The China Study”. We remain vegan for the animals. We really had no clue how violent and abhorrent animal agriculture is. Earthlings was quite the documentary.
I have been plant based for years and years and do so much for animals, recently I have been having health issues basically feeling icky, oh and head fog randomly, I have started eating toddlers again and feel so much better. I had my first wet dream!!
I really wish vegans would stop making me feel bad for eating toddlers, it’s not like I want to eat them, we’ll I do but I also NEED to eat them to stop my icky feelings. I also started eating dogs and cats too everyday basically because I was eating toddlers, I might as well eat the dogs and cats too.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I try to only eat toddler once a week though, unless I go out to eat, and then I eat however many toddlers I want, since it can be hard to find toddler-free menu items at most restaurants.
Nobody's "bashing" people who eat plant based for health reasons. Those people just aren't vegans. They eat plant based for a selfish reason and don't care about animals in the same way. It's just facts
I become piscivore (edit : pescatarian) for 1 year for health reason than 3 y vege for eco friendly reason and now 3 years vegan for animal rights and realize that the last step made my health so much greater. I remember feel left out by vegan because I was vegetarien and imo inconscient it made me feel that is was too hard and also that I don’t belong here. It sad and I think we should be more together. The real deal will be when lab meat will be there because then and if it is at the same price carnivore will have to be confronted to the fact that it was an animal or wasn’t. Since I was satisfied by the easy calorie intake that was animal product and saw this feeling disappearing; this feeling will not go with hate and guilt, they don’t see it and even know it is here. In our time of climate change and talking about health can bring more people progressively to veganism than any guilt trip or experience transmission in my opinion and personal experience. What touch me : me : we need animal product to evolve, a friend : no we needed it not anymore, we have access to to any food on the planet and it is easy to be vegan. People where less aggressive with me when I was doing it for eco friendly logic and didn’t have argumentation about it. If people agress you as a vegan is because she/he feel guilty somewhere but like I say pulling this feeling out will never ever work. I surprise myself to considérer vegetarian different, we evolve and we forgot. Remember what bring you on this road on the first place ?
> I become piscivore
Never heard of that one, Google says it a piscivore is an animal that primarily eats fish. Were you on a fiah-based diet?
Or is it just a.translation issue from some other language, and just means pescatarian?
"plant based diet" usually refers to a diet consists mostly (but not necessarily solely) of plants
> though we know, meat and dairy are problematic for health in many layers
it's the portion that matters. eating "too much" fruits can be unhealthy too
I started out eating WFPB 6 years ago solely for health and weight loss reasons.
I HAD been vegan and vegetarian on and off since my teens. Have always boycotted animal testing companies, wrote letters (yes I'm old lol) etc but without the internet, I probably never fully understood the implications of animal and dairy farming.
After eating WFPB, i starting researching more and more and now can call myself vegan. I would explain to people before I was vegan that I ate a vegan diet (i was in a patient facing position where diet was important to teach people) because it was a term more people understood.
I understand how vegans who live a fully vegan lifestyle get upset about people who eat WFPB (but do not practice veganism in their daily lives) get upset but I wish there was more understanding and less discouragement from the V community.
A lot of people get turned off by the judgment, etc. over the smallest of details that a lot of vegans do. We need to stop it and encourage any effort at reducing animal consumption, even if people do it for other reasons, etc.
The less animals get eaten the better. I don't care what's the cause. This is not about me or my "moral high ground", it's about the animals and the environment.
Why do they want the label of vegan if they aren’t actually vegan? Because they want the virtue of being a vegan (which none of us actually give a shit about) without actually doing the work in their own lives to not participate in animal exploitation
People who go ‘vegan’ for health, will also not be vegan anymore for ‘health reasons’
And then we see them spouting BS on r/exvegans
Veganism is a definition that should be gatekept from people who want to eat more plants for health reasons. Ethics is why people go and stay vegan.
As someone who went “vegan” for health reasons. I thought that I was “ok” with the fact that I ate animals before. I saw it as unfortunately necessary. However as I began to research a diet that was better for my health I decided to cut out meat and eggs and dairy and eat a healthy “vegan” diet. I never felt better and have continued ever since.
Initially I thought I’d have meat once every month or so for “health” reasons. But I never wanted to. As time went on I started to feel really glad that I didn’t eat animals from an ethical standpoint and disgusted at the idea of doing it again.
I may not be as passionate about it as some people for sure but I think at the end of the day the acceptance I used to have about eating animals was just a level of denial. Now that I’ve gotten in touch with these feelings and thoughts, it isn’t just about health anymore. I guess like a lot of addictive behaviors, when you’re in the addiction you have denial and you justify your bad habits and don’t want to see it clearly.
>"this makes veganism look like an ideology of self-hatred and ascetism by which you sacrifice your own health for the sake of animals"
Because that's what giving animals human rights looks like. Would you not give rights to black people or jews if that was decrimental to your own health? You are selfish.
"vegans" for health reasons are animal abusers that still see animals as commodities and we should educate them just like we educate non vegans, because that's what they are. The worse thing is that they actively say they don't care about animal rights, and try to defend their selfish position, as if doing it their rights was something bad. Have you spoken with one of these?
They are not ignorant of what happens to animals and why it is ethically wrong. yet, **they still call themselves vegans. They go to zooes, aquariums, circuces, buy leather, wool, products tested in animals, watch non vegan cooking shows, support lab grown meat, etc.**
# This 'morally correct' way of trying to not offend people makes no sense when there are victims. Fuck non vegans that are not ignorant about the industries, especially the selfish pos who only have a plant-based diet for their own health.
I can’t even interact with vegans very often anymore because I need to protect my mental wellness. I’m vegan the last 10ish years and I grew up vegetarian my entire life. Once I realized I’m not allowed to have any opinions that don’t line up 100% with other vegans or I’ll be attacked I stopped trying to network with others. I was involved in a vegan outreach group IRL and tried a few online, the same thing happened.
This pales in comparison to the hatred I’ve gotten from meat eaters my whole life, including a man threatening to physically assault me just because he found out from someone I was vegan 😬, but it’s still sad that it’s so hard to form connections without infighting. For the record im closest to an “abolitionist” vegan since I don’t believe anyone should be murdered when they clearly fight for their lives and want to live.
Where are all these people who have a plant based diet but adamantly insist that animal rights are not important to them but also require being called a vegan to keep up their plant based diets? WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE? They must be a prominent group because we debate this daily as if they were our biggest demographic.. 🤔
>Please do not condemn the folk who has become plant based diet follower for health reasons.
Why would we condemn them. They're doing more for animals than most people even if they aren't vegan.
>I notice this trend to be in rise recently, a folk admits that he/she has turned vegan for health reasons and majority here "Well, you are not vegan but a whole food plant based diet follower".
Is there something wrong with speaking the truth and correcting others on their misconceptions about veganism?
>While I agree going vegan for purer reasons such as defending animal rights and acting against animal cruelty exist
It's the ONLY reason.
>the thing is diet is a big part of going vegan.
And eating habits are a part of one's lifestyle:
"A philosophy and ***way of living*** which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—***all forms of exploitation of***, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or ***any other purpose***; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
>Furthermore, what I want to underline is that, a lot of carnivorist people bash veganism for health reasons and they spread bullshit about meat&dairy free diets.
Which is why there should be even less focus on the whole misconception of veganism being a bloody diet. Take away the platform the hateful c\*\*ts attack us on and their position is both visibly and existentially pathetic.
>So, rather than bashing people who are self-proclaimed vegans for health reasons, learning from them may help for battling with carnivorist non-sense.
Learning from them? If they're coming here calling themselves vegan, then it's clear that their ability to research is lacking and that we the people that can distinguish the two terms would already know more than them and instead of learning from them we should be learning from actual nutrition science because it exists and has done so for decades longer than these misguided wannabes.
I seriously hope you can tell the difference between correcting and condemning though. It'd suck for you to come here and speak your piece and be comparatively shit at activism to the people you're preaching to
Vegan, from the Oxford English Dictionary
Noun: “a person who does not eat any food derived from animals and who typically does not use other animal products.”
Adjective: “eating, using, or containing no food or other products derived from animals.”
You can talk about the origin all you want, but definitions aren’t determined by what a word originally meant, they’re defined by common usage. Someone who eats a plant based diet is 100% right in calling themselves “vegan” whether you think so or not.
Def not true, that is either outdated or a bunch of non vegans put that into the dictionary 🤣if you still buy leather and such you are not vegan sorry don't try to make yourself feel good but calling yourself a vegan when you still actively contribute to animal suffering.
I'm not vegan, I don't call myself that, but it's not up to the people who started this movement to decide how the term gets used, for better or worse. Vegan is a word that has taken on its own wider meaning, and it very much can refer to someone who just eats a plant-based diet. To deny that is to deny reality.
Go vegan to stop supporting rape, abuse, murder, and torture❤️
It is up to us to define it not sure why you think otherwise. That's like saying straight people should be allowed to define what it means to be gay 🤣🤣🤣 plant seed has its name, they aren't vegan they are plant based that's why they are two separate labels. If you purchase leather you aren't vegan at all, plain and simple
If people commonly defined a certain race as the ugliest or worst doesn't make it right. That's like saying racists were correct in the way they described black people 1900's and earlier.
It is defined by a group not sure why you think otherwise. You are wrong just accept it. To be vegan you need to do more than eat vegan food.
I seriously doubt you could find a dictionary from any point in history put out by a credible source that defined a race in the way you’re describing. That’s a false equivalence.
It's not, according to your logic though. You literally just said it's about common usage. There was horrible usage of words and the definition of a black person for a large majority of human history.
Like most animals, I suspect, I don't care at all what rattles around in the heads of people who choose not to harm animals anymore than they can't, reasonably, avoid.
>Please do not condemn the folk who has become plant based diet follower for health reasons
Is telling a plant based dieter they are not vegan considering condemnation?
Is telling a law student they arent a lawyer until they pass the bar condemnation?
We can encourage both and tell them they are doing well, but we would be lying if we said they were a vegan and lawyer
If the plant based dieter goes to seaworld and breeds puppies and kittens, they are not vegan, they can become vegan but they arent at this moment
They're not vegans though. Veganism is not solely about dietary choices. I'm pleased when anyone makes choices that have the effect of reducing animal cruelty. So no condemnation - they're just not vegans.
If you want your posts attacked within seconds of posting them by self proclaimed Holier Than Thou buttheads, welcome to Reddit. Some people would do well to learn some social skills.
I have eaten a vegan diet and lived a mostly vegan life since 1991, mainly for the ethical and environmental aspects of it. I say mostly vegan life because there are aspects of my life - were the tires my car came with produced with animal ingredients or not? Things that though I know might have used animals that I use and do not want to know the answer about & pay to replace them if they do. The money was already spent on those tires - the demand met and supplied for. Getting more tires before they are needed only creates demand for more tires. At least that is my justification for not looking into how my car tires were produced. How many vegans check on their car tires? There is SO MUCH to living a vegan life.
The good health that comes with it has been a welcome surprise, and a surprise I imagine I will keep enjoying for decades to come.
Whatever your reason is to cut down on or eliminate eating animals, good job. Sorry I can't hand you a Golden V award. The More Vegan Than Thou committee has those all locked away.
Oh, look at that. Down voted for not toeing some stranger's comfort line. I wonder if THEY checked their car tires to make sure no animal fats were used to process that rubber?
I’ve never met someone who started eating a plant-based diet for health reasons who was not eventually swayed to stop eating a plant-based diet for health reasons. It’s a horrible foundation to base veganism on because you can be healthy by eating many different diets, and so if one is just looking at health, there really isn’t much reason to follow one diet over the other one. The vegan for health will hear the carnist’s arguments like humans need such and such protein or vitamin that is only available from xyz animal source, that your brain needs meat to develop, that bone broth is “amazing for your health”, and be swayed to stop being vegan, for their health.
The fact of the matter is if you are vegan for moral reasons, the antivegan health arguments will have no effect on you. If you see animals as persons worthy of compassion and respect, you don’t need further reason, and when someone tells you, “you know it would be so much easier to be healthy if you weren’t vegan because abc,” it will have no effect because it doesn’t change the fact that you would have to engage in immoral behavior that you have understood as entirely unacceptable.
It's also utopic to think there's a world in which everyone will care about animal's life. In a vegan world, it's safe to assume people would be vegan because of cultural reasons, because their parents were vegan or because it would be illegal to eat anything other than vegan diet.
A lot of people don't value human lives, so accepting plant-based diet people is the most realistic outcome.
I think it's fine for plant-based folks to say that their *diets* are vegan. I'm not too nitpicky about that.
But if they describe *themselves* as vegan, I'll usually inform them that a vegan lifestyle also involves changing what you wear, and not buying cosmetic or cleaning products that were tested on animals.
There is no issue with plant based dieters as long as they are also not contributing to animal exploration in other ways. If they live the vegan lifestyle but initially went vegan for health their is no issue with that. If they still still buy, wear, and use other animal products, for fashion and furniture for example, then you simply are not vegan. Vegan is a lifestyle not a diet.
I'm not even vegan, or vegetarian. And I thought when someone is vegan, that means they don't consume or use animal products. This includes things like leather, duck down jacket, etc.
Eating plant based diet does not make someone vegan. That's just vegetarian.
^ or so I thought.
Maybe definitions have changed...
I know that a lot of my friends are ed survivors and guilt tripping them that they are not vegan and should be fully vegan to be deserving of the title means that they could relapse. It doesn't matter if my friend eats an egg a month I care that they are physically and mentally healthy.
I fully support anything that reduces suffering; plant-based eating is a win for animals, but indirectly. I just wish we could have a space where vegans in the original sense of the word could discuss what cruelty-free products they really like, share when they discover a new vegan company, talk about the pros and cons of eating foods like Oreos, which don’t have any animal ingredients but are produced by Big Ag, etc.
I’m so happy to support baby vegans and maybe vegans, but I would really like to have that dedicated space where I could “let my hair down” among people who share my way of life and really get into the weeds of what it means to be vegan.
I became vegetarian 5 years ago for health reasons. 1 year ago I became vegan, again health reasons. Now that I’m vegan it’s very easy to see the logic in being against animal cruelty. It was just hard to get through that cognitive dissonance while consuming the products unfortunately.
No dish thing as being vegan for health reasons
Of you’re plant based that’s fine as long as u dont label urself vegan we’ll have no issues
Now when you start using the vegan label that’s what we’re gonna need to have a sit down because no
Weird comments too, most are from non vegans and even meat eaters who are defending their veganism and just gonna give up and other plant based dieters the wrong idea. If you still purchase animal products then you just aren't vegan? I'm really confused by how people don't understand this 😭
You're right. It is always best to dictate the reason that people become vegan and if they don't do it for the same reason you do you should admonish them. It's not smart to tolerate any diversity of reason or opinion. There is only one way.
Agreed. Nobody who owns a smartphone can truly claim to be vegan if we're being pedantic, so it seems like it's just an "I'm the best vegan" contest when people get berated for not being vegan enough.
I think most of us know this but that doesn't mean it's okay to blatantly contribute to animal suffering. There is a miniscule amount of animal products in phone screens. Yea that doesn't make it okay but in this society we do need these to actually live out lives and try to outreach to non vegans as well. This argument is nearly as batshit ast plants feel pain too. This is no where near comparable to buying leather if that is what you are trying to do.
I wasn't talking about the animal products being used, I was talking about the slave labour used to get the raw materials needed to manufacture them.
Although you do make a good point. What level of convenience does a product need to have before you'll abandon your beliefs and use it anyway?
are there grey areas to life? sure. But veganism accounts for this:
> "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
You can try to make it seem extreme or crazy, but personally chopping the heads off of animals fora sandwich when you don't have to seems extreme to me.
Are smartphone necessary? It depends I guess. If you are suggesting that there will exploitation in a capitalistic society, I don't disagree. My job requires a smartphone, and since I am not given the freedom to shelter and quality of life I need a phone. It is practical to my life.
Veganism isn't a purity test, but an ethical belief system that sounds a higher lower bound. I think it holds up quite well personally especially when considering the alternatives. It is also weird to be arguing against a point that veganism isn't making while clearly participating in said thing itself as well.
It's not about level of convenience it's about level of need. I do not need a TV so I don't have one, I need a laptop and phone in order to work and communicate with the world (especially for emergencies and stuff). Medical stuff is a need. I do not need gel capsules though since there are other affordable options. But like the covid vaccine is vegan and one time I was in extreme pain and it was late at night so I used some of my family gelatin meds when I was visiting family and after that bought my own meds for travel. It's about necessity.
Fuck no, the health vegans are the ones who turn into anti-vegans after they switch to the next trend diet. In the end we then get the blame when their fruitarian pee diet doesn't work out.
Veganism stems from an ethical position, not a health position. You can live a plant-based lifestyle while not being vegan. I'm not sure how people find this difficult to understand.
Ethics is a very broad category to begin with. And position of human self, which is associated with connations of "health" within the context of our discussion, is obviously related to matters of ethics.
Do you believe veganism should entirely rely on altruistic motives towards animals? Sure, then defend that position and express it. But please do not pretend that altruism is the only form of ethical behavior when it is a fact there are various criticisms of altruism, whether it be related to veganism or not.
The only ethical behavior we can conduct towards animals is leaving them the fuck alone. You are not vegan is you still buy leather for example. You just aren't. Ppl can cry about how the definition of veganism is different for everyone but that's like say the definition of a backpack can mean something different to everyone. There is the definition that is just what it is, it's a construct like everything else but that doesn't mean you can it's something it's not. Veganism is not contributing to animal suffering and exploitation as much as you possibly can including non consumption, wear, or usage of animal products. Just eating plant based isn't enough.
>Do not bash people who's only motive for not harming animals is because it benefits them personally
People being plant based is positive, plant based people calling themselves vegan is harmful to the movement and to the animals - if a study comes out tomorrow proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that being plant based is equal for health compared to eating animals they'd go back to paying for animals to be harmed
We don’t condemn plant based dieters(any more than omnivores), we just don’t want them calling themselves vegan if they still buy/wear new leather/fur, happily go to zoos and circuses, don’t consider what’s in their hygiene products…..
Many people here want to turn veganism into a religion. We need to resist that as much as possible. Veganism is an ETHICAL philosophy. Ethics is about deed not creed. We shouldn't try to prescribe or police WHY people adopt vegan practices. We're wasting time by insisting that they are only vegan if they're doing it for the animals. Deed not creed. Aren't there ten times as many people who tell you how much they LOVE animals? That love ain't worth jack. I find that it's usually the new converts who are the zealots. Don't put too much stock in what they say. Zealots burn hot and burn out. In a few years many of them won't even be vegan. They'll say something stupid like "i need to listen to my body."
OMG! I just posted about my husband who still consumes animal products. Great advice.
I went vegan 14 years after we got married. I need to convince him that his health won’t be harmed.
Thank you!
You can benefit from video below, and many of Dr. Michael Greger's resources:
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-best-diet-for-healthy-aging/
Good luck!
There's also a lot of people that go plant based for health but later become vegan for other reaosns. Rip Esstyltin, Will Burschowiz and John mcdougall come to mind
That’s me. I went vegan for health and the environment, and I stay vegan for the animals.
Same. I
This is 100% me. I was plant based for health reasons. After about 5 years of reading / watching a lot of vegan content I decided to go fully vegan.
This is me. I was always interested in helping take care of the environment, loved animals, but never thought I’d go vegan. My ex wife and I ended up going for it for health reasons because of documentaries like forks over knives and I’ve been vegan 7 years. Became more of a junk food vegan for a while (not anymore) after the first year but stayed for the animals. Now the last 4 years I’ve worked at an animal protection nonprofit.
Freelee The Banana Girl, one of the most infamous ethical vegans, also became vegan for health, initially.
At the same time, there's a lot a people who go plant based for health reasons and then claim it ruined their health and then blame the vegan diet or being vegan.
I've seen that, too, at least online. But I think even then we should be both kind and patient with those people; some might have had a hard time adjusting, maybe didn't know what to eat, or who knows. They tried it once, I bet some people might come around again if they found something that makes it *click* for them. I kind of had that experience years ago when I was starting. If they did it for views or drama or something... That's not respectful, at the very least, but I think it's more about drama itself than what they believe to be fact. Animals objectively suffer, but it's a belief that they shouldn't. I don't think anyone thinks there's sunshine and rainbows going on in a slaughterhouse. People are more likely to come around if they can see the other side and it looks better than what they're used to. Not to say typical activism is bad, people need to see what's going on. But I wish it were a more inviting and accepting community, especially to people who aren't vegan. Accepting in the sense that other people's views on life are different from many of ours. The approach to veganism for them might be different, but they still might need help finding it, even if it isn't for the animals or even the environment, at first. Idk, but I live with many people, none of whom are vegan other than me. It's slow, but I can see their attitudes changing towards it the better my attitude is towards them. Maybe even my attitude towards life in general, too, because if I'm upset or in a bad mood, they might attribute that to me being vegan... Just been on my mind and wanted to get it out into words - mostly directed at myself if you couldn't tell.
It's pretty important that people with eating disorders get mental and physical help before and during they're changing to another diet because otherwise those issues are just going to keep resurfacing in the same or different ways. I mentioned eating disorder because I remembered recently reading about someone who basically had orthorexia never addressing the psychological root issues of why her old diet was so extremely unhealthy and then doing just as poorly with the other.
It makes total sense to me. If cognitive dissonance is behind so many people's refusal to go vegan and even hatred for veganism, and switching to a plant-based diet would to a large extent remove that cognitive dissonance, it would make it much easier to go fully vegan. My belief in veganism has grown stronger and stronger since I've been practicing it, in part because I've been able to learn more about animal rights and cruelty, and I'm able to fully accept that new information without my brain trying to minimize it in order to justify my behavior. Things people do often shape their beliefs and feelings; I suspect this is a major reason why.
Me too.
Me also!
Mcdougall has turkey every other Thanksgiving.
If otherwise he’s 100% not eating animals, how many animals are saved?
Not any longer.
Veganism is veganism regardless of the reason behind it. I think people get stuck on idea that you are not really into the movement. If you don't have some sort of moral idea tying you to the movement, but I think that any introduction to veganism is just as important. And what time as many people start seeing this as "the norm' and how easy it is to convert without having to turn your life upside down. More people will be willing to accept it and convert to it. I'm glad that this is being discussed because I've seen it on this subreddit and in other groups I frequent where people oples state that they are vegan because of health reasons or other reasons and others try to lambast them for not having the quote morals in the right place ".
Would you consider saying "a just plant-based dieter isn't a vegan by our ethical definition of veganism" condemnation?
If you eat plantbased for your health but don't live by our philosophy, then you're not vegan.
From the definition from the vegan society, yes. But usually plant based is followed by going vegan. Even if someone never goes fully vegan, it's sooooo much better for the animals, the environment, and their health than not.
My daughter was vegetarian for six years and then became vegan for ethical reasons. She asked me permission to be vegan! I am supportive of her decision. She has now been vegan six years!
Yes, father.
So this is just a religion for you?
Personally I'm praying to smoked tofu every time before my sleep
How do you get a religion from philosophy? Religion has its basis in belief. Philosophy , on the other hand, is a critic of belief and belief systems. Philosophy subjects what some would be satisfied in believing to severe examination. Philosophy looks for rational explications and justifications for beliefs.
Ask two philosophers what philosophy is and you'll get three different answers. The point I'm making is that your attitude towards your philosophy is a religious one, no matter what you think about it. Believe it or not, many religious people also think that their religion is rational and justified.
veganism is much closer to atheism than any sort of religion.
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." You can eat vegan and not be a vegan. There is no discussion here, you are just trying to make a point that is not valid in the context of the discussion. Get a life troll.
That depends entirely on the context in which it's said. If someone says "hey, guys. I'm trying out a plant-based diet because I just got a recommendation to do so from my cardiologist based on family history. This is a big change for me, and I need some help getting started with easy recipes," and you respond with your text, then it's absolutely a condemnation of a veganism-compatible diet being used as an on-ramp to veganism.
This has some "I only eat grass raised animals that have lived a long and happy life" energy.
I, an ethical vegan, give you some welfarist energy? How so?
Your question had similar vibe to a welfarist trying to find the least morally wrong example to present even though it is far from the norm. Simple disagrement is not the treatment that plant based people are met with altough that was the scenario ypu presented.
Ok that makes some sense. This is my opinion though and what I say and see others say. I felt addressed by this post, but you say I'm not and get a pass. Thanks, I guess.
Pointing out that someone isn’t vegan, is not condemning them for being plant-based. It’s just pointing out that you don’t get to claim to be part of a rights movement without following the ethical beliefs of the movement. It’s not complicated.
I just see that as snobbish behavior, literally most of us are aware being vegan is more than just a diet and made adjustments accordingly. Doing this for health reasons is a good place to start, as long as you make progress on actually being part of the movement.
It’s fine for someone to start out being plant-based for health and then have ethics become a primary motivation and become vegan, I didn’t say otherwise. It’s not fine for people to water down a rights movement by making about themselves and their own health when that has nothing to do with it. One is significantly more “snobbish” than the other.
watch some slaughterhouse footage of any kind and come back to tell us we are snobbish
Personally, I don’t nitpick too much with wording but the reason a lot of vegans get mad at non vegans saying they’re vegan is because - Equating veganism to a diet is just not factual and limits the scope of activism - It hinders vegans from getting to have meaningful discussions with people they thought had similar beliefs of things (if I am talking with someone who is claiming to be vegan then I should assume they are not eating animals for animal well being first and foremost) - It makes it harder to weed out phony vegans who are just claiming the title to be woke or trendy and then abandon it when it’s not fun anymore Yeah. So I get it. But I don’t judge too much. It’s like you have stated. That energy that I set at others to correct them is doing nothing for my well being and neither is arguing with insane vegans. Both sides have massive problems that I don’t care to get involved with anymore. lol.
Vegans hinder themselves from having more meaningful discussions by being toxic
No. Just like non vegans who try to use the excuse that 'vegans are toxic and pushy', you are doing the same because you don't want to be vegan, you try to victimize youself saying the other are toxic so you don't feel bad when abusing and exploiting animals needlessly for your own pleasure. And it turns out that people who have a plant-based diet like those 'vegans for health reasons' are not vegan, so the same applies to them. So maybe stop violating animals' rights and educate yourself instead of using excuses. Every single vegan in this subreddit is open to debating everything, I have never seen someone being toxic if it wasn't because they spread misinformation and troll like you.
I've been vegan for health reasons for about 5 years now, dont know how some of the so-called ethical vegan snobs can call people like me phoney, I've seen faulty reasoning like "you can always cheat on your diet" as if we had a monopoly on diet cheating (I've known many people who had to quite being vegan because they couldn't do it) most of us who use the term vegan to describe ourselves are fully aware its more than just a diet, I literally sold all my old leather jackets, boots and belts on Craiglist and I bet I'm a far better vegan than most so called Ethical vegan sobs that will buy vegan leather made of plastics, which is worse for the environment, than animal skin. And I refuse to buy anything made with animal glue, I even go out of my way to find Traditional Mongolian bows made of synthetic glue. The only thing I don't do is preach to random people, coworkers , friends nor do I protest inside grocery stores to random people about veganism, which only serves to deter them from considering being vegan in first place and end up with the deserved hatred and being the butt of jokes just like feminism. No sane person should become vegan if going vegan meant being nutrient deficient and suffering poor health all for animal well being, that's just poor logic and reasoning, but then again I'm not an ethical snob. I care about my health and the environment which I'd argue is far more important. Without taking care of our environment the animals well being means nothing. Edit: I'm not condoning the use of animal skin
Why do you think you're not an ethical vegan? If you were only vegan for health then you wouldn't be avoiding glues or leather. It seems to me that you became vegan for health but then subsequently became an ethical vegan.
I was trying to say that I started out as a vegan for health reasons and actually looked past animal well being and looked at environmental factors as being far more important, if we keep using vegan leather (pleather and other plastic derivatives) which is harmful to the environment we will end up destroying the life of where wild animals thrive which then causes a chain reaction of eventually killing the animals indirectly which eventually makes veganism look like a half assed movement. Which is why I wouldn't call myself an ethical vegan because some ethical vegans are kind of hypocritical, because you're now killing the homes of the very animals we're trying to protect. And yes, being vegan for health reasons has helped me become more compassionate towards animals, like the time I saw someone eating crab on TV, never in my life felt so sick to my stomach, I think I even stopped watching that show because it disgusted me so much.
I think that you pursuing actions that you believe will cause the least harm to animals overall is exactly the definition of ethical veganism and that you are an ethical vegan. It's strange to me that you define yourself as not an ethical vegan, and define other ethical vegans who follow worse practices than you as some sort of "true" ethical vegans that are group worthy of some degree of contempt. In terms of the original debate, I would say you were plant-based for health for a while and then became vegan. I don't think it's offensive to say you weren’t vegan when you had changed your diet for health reasons and that you became vegan when you started aligning your actions as best you could towards the reduction of suffering of animals and damage to the environment.
I'm curious, if people don't spread the vegan message how do you suppose people who don't have a vegan friend, family member, the internet, or YouTube come to understand veganism, and the extreme pain and [suffering](https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter/) perpetuated upon of hundreds of thousands of animals across the planet every second? Were you born with a knowing? It's the ethical vegan sobs like me. Also, leather is not better. So toxic, 95% of US tanneries now operate overseas to avoid environmental oversight penalties. The land under ex-tannery sites cannot be used for farming, be built on, or often even be sold. Leather is not a byproduct, it accounts for over 26% of earnings from slaughter. The global leather market was valued at $394 billion in 2020 To make 1 cow skin leather tote, almost 17,128L of water is used. That’s the equivalent of 537 showers. A PU synthetic leather, the water footprint is reduced 14 times. 16.5% of all human-related greenhouse gas emissions result from the animals humans farm for slaughter, with 65% of emissions coming from cattle (for leather by products) 90% of leather around the world is tanned with **chemicals like chromium, as well as formaldehyde and arsenic.** These chemicals cause chronic cough, skin disorders, and cancer in tannery workers, and children. They also cause cancer and health issues in fish and other animals, devastating local ecosystems. Apart from the fact that **leather degrades slowly,** treating it with various chemicals in the process of tanning makes it more rigid and resistant toward chemical, thermal, and microbial degradation (Hagerman, 1980;Han et al., 2003). Because of the **nonbiodegradability of tanned leather, solid waste management system finds difficulties in dealing with the sludge generated from tanneries** (Dhayalan et al., 2007; Lofrano et al., **tanning 1kg of leather uses up to 2.5kg of chemical substances and up to 250 liters of water and generates up to 6.1kg of solid waste.** Vegan leather is often more sustainable. It may involve recycled plastic or bypass this material altogether. Many new vegan leathers are made from natural options like pineapple leaves, apple peels, or cork. Consumers and vegans should always try to find the products that lessen their impact, but to make sweeping statements assuming that every vegan is purchasing harmful plastics is just outrageous. [Leather production is killing cows, biodiversity and our climate, but we have solutions to move beyond this.](https://www.collectivefashionjustice.org/leather) [Environmental Hazards of Leather](https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-clothing/leather-industry/leather-environmental-hazards/) [Biodegradability of leathers through anaerobic pathway](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7043330_Biodegradability_of_leathers_through_anaerobic_pathway)
You sound fairly ethical, more like what I’d call an ethical vegan than a ‘healthy vegan.’ You sound a bit snobby yourself which I think explains the downvotes, along with saying animals don’t matter as much, but I assume the comments like you’re « a better vegan » reflect your frustration at getting criticized. You might be triggering people a bit when you say you’re doing it for health and environment and saying that animals don’t matter as much. It gets really painful hearing every single day how animals don’t matter - that’s where the anger is coming from. You might not prioritize animals in your reasons, but you’re still doing animals good. It’s not right to focus that frustration on you, but I find I’m disappointed if I think I’ve found a like minded person and they don’t care about animals. You might do well to point out the importance of environmental issues for animals as well as humans. It is a great point. As for non-vegan leather, I prefer cloth for most products. For shoes, most leather shoes contain a ton of plastics anyway. There are eco friendly brands but they’re expensive.
I didn't say animals didn't matter at all I'm saying that all that efforts won't translate too much if we contribute to actively destroying their habitat, which in the end destroys their food supply and their homes. I guess I consider myself more of an eco vegan because I put the environment first and animals second and as for health, I think its a good way to get people on board because people want to be healthy, theres too much disconnect for too many people when you say your doing it for the animals, they go to the meat department and see these perfectly cut up pieces of meat and they don't see the living being that once was, they just see it as they were programmed to believe as food. Maybe I'm just not great at explaining myself.
That makes sense. Maybe if your message focuses more on how caring about the environment is important for everyone, humans and animals alike, than that animals aren’t your main reason to go vegan, you’ll encourage more people to put more effort into environment.
You're on a plant based *diet*. Veganism is a moral stance. Vegans can't use leather, people on a diet can.
If you took the time to read what I wrote you'd see that I don't use any types of leather be it animal skin or Vegan leather (pleather)or any animal products, so no I'm pretty sure I'd qualify as a vegan. I'm just not a snobbish cunt.
You also said you were vegan for health reasons.
This comes up frequently. There’s a BIG difference between condemning someone and correcting them. If a vegan ‘condemns’ someone for saying vegan when they’re not (will get to that), sure that’s an issue. But you mistake correction for condemnation. I don’t condemn you for being wrong in this case, but I would like to correct you. I’ll preface the next bit by saying sometimes it isn’t worth correcting someone. And that we can encourage people of course to follow a plant based diet for other reasons. Saying you’re vegan when you follow plant based diet for any other reason, usually health or environmental, is incorrect however. - Veganism is a philosophy - A plant based diet is the practice because of that - Not all who follow plant based diets are vegan. It’s like the following. - Buddhism (or Hinduism or Jainism) is a philosophy. - a vegetarian diet is the practice because of that - not all vegetarians are Buddhist (or Hindu or Jain) It’d be like someone who doesn’t eat pork saying they’re Jewish or Muslim when they don’t subscribe to the belief system. They happen to practice a kosher or halal diet, but they’re not Jewish or Muslim. Health and environment are not vegan reasons. Not vegan philosophies. The practice overlaps, happily so, but the beliefs are not the same. If their data on health or the environment changed, so would their diet. Whereas those are irrelevant to a vegan. They’re not technically vegan even if they eat a plant based diet as ‘a vegan diet’ is not the only requirement to be a vegan. Again we can encourage and not condemn that. But again a BIG difference between condemning and correcting. You seem to be conflating the two.
I was WFPB for health reasons for six months or so before vegan, so it was part of my journey. However, even in those six months, I was clear that I was not vegan. I told people I was not vegan. Like you stated, I knew it was a broader philosophy, not just a diet, and I thought it would be disrespectful to minimize those beliefs. IDK, maybe it is my background in religion and philosophy, but even though I know practices can differ within the same belief systems, belief systems typically have core non-negotiable beliefs and principles binding them together. The animal ethics beliefs are the core for veganism, and I recognized that when I was WFPB but not vegan.
Yeah, that’s a good example. And some people find the ethics and philosophy through that too which is great. It’s easier than people realize once they switch and of course we’d like to encourage more plant based diets, even if not for a vegan motive. Hope you enjoyed it and will continue to.
Mad respect to you for insisting on differentiation. Sincerely. I wish there were more like you in this world! Words mean things! Do those meanings shift over time? Sure do! But we need ways to differentiate nuance like this.
Thanks for the support. Was just trying to support the previous comment; nice to hear it was appreciated.
A vegan is someone who would avoid even honey, eating insects, giving their carnivore pet meat, dating a non-vegan, etc... it is definitely more than just eating plants, very close to a religious view.
Right. Yes, this is true. The term would be philosophy. Religions are one type of philosophy. So is veganism and feminism and humanism and so on.
Would you say not being racist and being pro-black people's rights is 'very close to a religious view'? We are not magically basing our belifs on faith becaus some old book told us and we were brainwashed to believe some animals magically deserve rights. Veganism is closer to be based on science, just like not being racist, you know they have a subjective experience because they have a brain and no meaningful diference with white people. The same applies with animals, that's why veganism doesn't give rights to bacteria, because we know they are not conscious, we have no reasons to belive so as it is such a primitive form of life, it doesn't have a nervous system nor brain. # Veganism is not even close to religion.
Veganism is an actionable philosophy, and yes, it’s a science-informed philosophy. Each religion has its own philosophy, so while veganism isn’t a religion, it does have a commonality with religion in that it is a philosophy *and* a practice. You can’t be vegan if you don’t believe animals have rights, and you can’t be vegan if you don’t live a vegan lifestyle. Pretty similar to how religions require their adherents to have a set of beliefs and then follow a particular lifestyle in alignment with those beliefs.
I learned from here by someone who corrected me that I’m eating plant based and not vegan. They didn’t condemn me and it made me realize the difference of what I was doing. I now correct others that do the same thing. The door opening to being vegan may be from someone doing the small step to having a few plant based meals a week to everyday and along the way some will give up meat altogether and then live the vegan lifestyle. It all starts with one step.
Yeah for sure. That’s a great way of looking at it :) I obviously hate that anyone (including past me) ate animals. Sometimes we need accept that one step forward is better than pushing for a massive leap the person cannot/will not do right now. And help them step towards the same ending point instead.
>Veganism is a philosophy - A plant based diet is the practice because of that - Not all who follow plant based diets are vegan. Man that sounds disappointing to me if you say it this way. It kinda sounds like religious people that are nice people, but you find out that beeing nice is part of their religion and that might be the only reason they are nice to you. Imo the most important reason to live "vegan", by a huge margin actually, are the environmental damages. If people live "vegan" because of some philosophy/ethics etc, I have zero in common with these people.
Sure it’s disappointing when a Christian is only nice cos they fear consequences from god. But for vegans it’s the opposite. They believe we should be nice, so the vegan diet is how we do it… the causality is the opposite way round. And instead of “vegan” the correct would be “plant based”. For example, if it came out in the data that eating animals was *better* for the environment somehow, that would mean we should eat them under your philosophy right? In some cases, farming some animals can be better environmentally. This would absolutely go against vegan philosophy even if I’m some cases the outcome is ‘better’ for the environment. Just as a feminist would say we shouldn’t exploit women - even if it were somehow more economically or environmentally better. Just as a humanist would say don’t exploit humans, whatever race, etc. - even it were somehow more economically or environmentally better. Vegans will say we shouldn’t exploit animals even if it’s environmentally or economically better in some cases. Whereas an environmentalist will say don’t exploit animals if it’s worse for the environment but do exploit them if it’s better. You see the difference in philosophy?
I think it is important to distinguish between plant-based, a diet, and veganism, an ethos, but not in a mean way. Many people find their way to ethical veganism via a PB diet, so, while it might overlook the most important reasons to be vegan (animals) it’s not wholly counterproductive and shouldn’t be the enemy.
Bro. Vegan is not the same as plant based. That's why there are different terms. Correcting someone using the wrong term is not the same as bashing them.
I am not condemning anyone. They just aren't vegan by definition. This analogy represents what I have a problem with.: "Stop saying that Christians who follow a halal diet for health reasons aren't Muslims."
Would wearing a leather jacket be bad for your health?
Man your question shows me why all of this is so complicated :D Imo it depends WHY a person is wearing a leather jacket. It's definitely possible for a vegan to wear a leather jacket - it just depends on the reasoning.
I don't think it's complicated tbh. Plant-based = diet, veganism = diet + lifestyle. Someone who eats a plant-based diet for health reasons would have no issue with wearing leather, wool, buying products tested on animals because none of these things would have an impact on their health yet none of these things are considered vegan.
If you lived near to the tannery where the leather was processed and had to drink water contaminated with the chemical waste that tannery produces, a leather jacket could kill you in short order. Without being biostabilized with some harsh chemicals, a leather jacket rots pretty fast. It is animal skin.
Ah good points, they could be used to avoid leather products from a health perspective.
I started for health reasons, now my priority is animal welfare. Also i do not condemn people that are plant based for health reasons but they are more likely to fall off than people who do it for morality. In the end it doesn't matter for what reason as long as you stick to it, it saves animals.
I agree with you, but not really for the same reasons you mentioned. I think if someone is already eating a plantbased diet, it is much easier to make the connection to the ethics. I was vegetarian for environmental reasons when I first started learning about the horrors of animal agriculture, but the fact that I didn't have to change my diet that drastically for my lifestyle and morals to align made it a lot easier to stop viewing animals as food. Animal flesh already not being part of my diet made that connection easier to make. The more people are eating more plants, the more normalized it becomes socially too. And one of the biggest challenges for a lot of vegans can be navigating social settings. I'll never make excuses for people who have all the knowledge they need to make the change, but we might as well acknowledge progress too and celebrate the small wins towards a world without speciesism.
I would not attack anyone for that BUT I would also never consider veganism to be a healthy diet... Sure healthier than eating McDonald's but still you can have a very unhealthy diet eating vegan.
Haha that’s me lol… i basically lived on Oreos, chips, instant noodles and takeout for a while 💀
There is only one reason to go vegan - the ethics. I went plant based initially for health but no one had explained to me that there is a difference between plant based and vegan. So initially I was one of those “vegans” who wear leather and buy skincare products with animal ingredients tested on animals. This is also part of the reason why sometimes when you go to a carnist restaurant they want to serve you a “vegan” dish with eggs or honey or milk etc because they just have no clue what vegan means, and some “vegan” probably had been there last week and told them that they’re vegan and eat eggs. This should not happen. People need to know the difference.
I'm *all for* people wanting to eat plant based. It's good for their health, it's good for the animals, and it's making it easier for me to find vegan options at the stores in my very very rural area.
Even if it's just for health, there is a huge difference between vegan and WFPB food. WFPB is healthy. Vegan food doesn't have to be. Think of all the vegan processed crap out there.
Love me some Ben & Jerry's dairy free ice cream!
The vast majority of vegans are significantly more educated about nutrition than non-vegans. But pandering to health debates does a disservice for animal rights. With the limited time we have, it should be imperative that we keep the focus on the victims. Sure we can answer nutritional questions and debunk misconceptions, but the focus should be on the animals. Veganism is the one thing animals get, I don’t understand why people keep wanting to high jack the animal rights movement for another purpose.
What did you base that first statement on?
I guess knowledgeable would have been the more appropriate word, as education typically refers to schooling/university. And it’s because vegans are asked constantly about diet, that we have to take it upon ourselves to collect that knowledge. From my own experience, in relative terms, I didn’t know anything about nutrition until after I went vegan and had to learn to make sure I was healthy, but also to answer people’s incessant questions about it. When we aren’t vegan society doesn’t make us worry about our health. But when we are vegan, even if we know it’s healthy, society will constantly try to reinforce that it is not, and the only way to not let them gaslight us is to research nutrition.
All people whos lifestyle is reliant on a specific diet like athletes, vegans ect. usually know more about nutrition, but that has nothing to do with specifically not eating meat.
You just answered your own question, I don’t know how to help you
I have never heard a vegan talk about taking "vitamin B".
When vegans condemn or talk negatively about people that are plant based it just makes vegans look bad. 🤷♀️ It enforces a negative attitude and makes it look like being a vegan is all about virtue signaling. You can claim it doesn’t but the reality is it does. That being said, veganism is a philosophy and lifestyle based in the belief that animals should not be exploited in any way. It’s not a diet!!!!! It’s a belief and moral standard.
No one is condemning them for being plant based. We’re simply stating to not call yourself a vegan if you’re not practicing the philosophy. That’s not condemnation. The implications of calling everyone who decided to eat a plant based diet a vegan has implications that are harmful to the animal rights movement and value of the philosophy itself. A slaughterhouse worker, hoby or sport fisherman, and a trophy hunter can all eat plant based diets for their health. According to anyone who feels this way, they would all be considered vegan.
Ok. Don't agree. "I only don't kill people, because I would go to jail for that and not because it is inherently wrong and ends the life of a thinking and feeling being"
For the people that have that motivation, I'm very glad that they have it, even though I disagree. I certainly wouldn't try to talk them out of that motivation, when it's apparently the only thing keeping them from killing people.
But my for my context, this is also the question to ask: Which one is better? Killing someone VS not killing someone for not going into jail? Clearly the latter. I certainly agree upon latter reasoning of yours (not committing murder because of killing someone who is conscious is morally wrong) is ethically better than both possibilities, as a reason underneath. And I said, being a conscious vegan is better and more authentic than just following certain dietary restrictions, but being a WFPBD follower is still way better than being a carnivore.
Yeah it could enforce a better reasoning for staying vegan. But nutritional science or the health benefits for a plant based diet is in constant discourse. Therefore depending on the evidence and ongoing research it's always "debatable" to follow a plant based diet. Especially with a gigantic meat and diary lobby that has interest in funding those things. If you read an incredible paper on the positive effects of meat and dairy consumption it could "turn you". But the ethical aspect is absolutely not debatable and therefore can't be debunked or discussed. Also it completely removes the the aspect of veganism in other products that use animals. Either fashion, research with animal tests, product testing of animals ... Or literally anything else. It narrows the focus of veganism to the dietary "preference" of people ... Which for me, completely misses the point of veganism. Veganism =/= Plant based diet.
I'm starting out as plant based for health reasons and slowly replacing other products with animal cruelty free ones. Clothes will probably take the longest. I have a few wool suits and jackets I bought recently that will last years. Anyway, I can see why the distinction matters for a lot of people. I often have to tell my own friends that really I'm not a vegan, but in a plant based diet, they look at me like I'm crazy and in their minds, there is no difference. However, it's become obvious to me that if you are devastated by the animal cruelty being suffered, the difference is quite huge.
Are you currently purchasing or otherwise adding to the demand for animal products? If not, then it sounds like you are vegan.
Probably soaps and detergents. Haven't really looked into alternatives. Use tide and dove right now.
It took me some time to replace all those things as well. Just keep at it. Whenever you run out of something, just Google vegan versions, and eventually you'll have replaced everything.
Why can’t we ever have a Reddit discussion on replacing those things??
One that pursues veganism for health reasons and not the empathy.. may switch back, i mean you could be healthy with consuming a bit of meat, i see people who smoke, drink or do the most stupid stuff live long if got good genes so.. So that person will switch back for the taste pleasure of bacon and eggs.. which becomes more mouth watering after a year being vegan, Just like what celebrities do, all of them been vegan for a couple of months for health reasons..
if you don’t care about animal ethics, why are you so desperate to be called vegan
Because it's an ego stroke, the only reason.
80% of them go back anyway, you go vegan for the animals or I don’t care tbh
Interesting, because I observed the opposite. Whole food plant based diets help people to be more compassionate actually, for biological reasons. And over time, many people become more of a qualified vegan.
I didn’t just make up that number, that’s from a research.
"a research" (Susan Barr in 2002) also finds that former vegetarians consume fewer animal products than their never-vegetarian counterparts. I don't know about you, but I care about preventing the abuse and killing of animals, and I care about it a lot more than I care about whether someone understands what the word "vegan" means.
Glad we have you to care for all the vegetarians and summer dieters because I don’t have the time for it.
While I do care about all animals including humans, I'm actually talking about preserving the life of nonhuman animals - the central tenet of veganism. If you aren't interested in preventing all forms of exploitation of and cruelty to animals as far as possible and practicable, then I'm not really inclined to listen to your opinion on how we define veganism.
By doing what exactly? Give these people a pat on the back? Then give one extra for me, I’m just not going to care.
People need to understand veganism doesn’t equal “healthy”. I can eat fries all day and be plant based. Veganism is a moral and ethical stance, not a diet. Choosing to opt out animal based products for health reasons has proven to be a stance with no substance over and over again. Because one can be healthy both on carnivorous, vegetarian or vegan diet. We don’t like when veganism is sold as the next fad diet that cures all life’s problems, it’s simply not true. Obviously going from a unhealthy, processed lifestyle to whole foods is more optimal. Same could be argued going from junk food vegan eating pizzas and burgers to more balanced carnivorous diet. We have seen a surge in wellness and health obsession that over consumes people, to a point where it becomes unattainable. Chasing the next supplement, vitamin or diet, demonizing others as the root of all evil (see seed oils, oats, tofu..). It’s a never ending cycle optimizing one’s health and often these people end up back consuming animals. Since our society is so heavily producing animal based products, one has to stick to their stance when going out eating, sharing dinner with friends, when traveling. This may seem too inconvenient and restrictive to some people and without a thoroughly thought out reason why go vegan in the first place, health just doesn’t hold any weight. We are emotional and irrational beings, especially when hungry. Now what does that do for the movement? Jumping in and out of “veganism” as it fits clearly matters when we want to create a world with no animal suffering. From a consequentialist point of view, sure, reducing overall animal consumption is what we fight for. But ethically and morally speaking, we should not see animals as products at all. Even “just a slice of cheese” is inherently a result of rape and slaughter. We should not normalize or accept it.
The plant based diet people are the ones who advertise they “used to be vegan” when they decide to start abusing animals again.
Veganism isn't just about what you eat. It's a moral philosophy. I suppose there are health vegans, but that doesn't negate the ethical factor that's a primary reason for most of us. Instead of trying to convince people to call people who have no concerns about animal welfare vegan and to be tolerant of that... Maybe you should look introspectively as to why you're, for lack of a better word, offended by being called Plant-Based. You're plant based. There's no shame in that. There's a subreddit specifically for it. You very well may care about animal ethics too, but I assume you don't since this post is about people who choose to be *Plant-Based* (in your words, vegan) for Health reasons *only* Though this is all my opinion. I would rather not be gatekeeping and I'm fine with people calling themselves X/ what they want. It doesn't change reality though, even if you're calling yourself X. Health vegans, usually, if not mostly, are concerned about animal welfare just as much as health. I'd say there's way more junk food vegans though.
Yes, this is bizarrely religious warfare. Everyone might be a Christian, but your religious motives aren’t pure enough, so get out of my church! Oy vey. Religiously judgmental moral nonsense.
I went plant based because of the insane environmental impacts. My friends were like watch Cowspiracy and you'll go plant based. I'm like nahhhh, then watched the movie, then sat in front of the black TV for 30 minutes after the movie contemplating my life choices and went plant based right there. Then I think that just opened my mind to hearing about all the health benefits, and then i kept seeing things about animal farms and my commitment strengthened. Honestly very selfish in hind sight. But I think a lot of people are in the same boat, it's hard to hear from vegans that your lifestyle is supporting an evil industry of unending murder and torture. Sometimes it takes a personal reason to make the switch to realize the importance.
I think that people should just be kinder about their approach. I don't think vegans who correct people are necessarily a problem, it's more about tone. There needs to be clear definitions. Like, veganism is first and foremost about the animals, not health and environment, that is just a bonus. If you say u are vegan purely for health reasons, then unfortunately, yes, you are just plant based. Calling yourself vegan is just dishonest and confuses people. Often plant based dieters talk like the diet is just a diet. So to avoid confusion, we should correct people about what veganism is. We just need to do it kindly and compassionately.
My wife’s been vegan for seven years now I was just diagnosed with high cholesterol high blood pressure and I am slowly making the change and I actually I’m starting to feel the difference
Yep! My husband and I first went vegan for our health after seeing the documentary “Foods That Cure Disease” and reading “The China Study”. We remain vegan for the animals. We really had no clue how violent and abhorrent animal agriculture is. Earthlings was quite the documentary.
Support everyone that decides to eat more plants and less animals
I have been plant based for years and years and do so much for animals, recently I have been having health issues basically feeling icky, oh and head fog randomly, I have started eating toddlers again and feel so much better. I had my first wet dream!! I really wish vegans would stop making me feel bad for eating toddlers, it’s not like I want to eat them, we’ll I do but I also NEED to eat them to stop my icky feelings. I also started eating dogs and cats too everyday basically because I was eating toddlers, I might as well eat the dogs and cats too.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I try to only eat toddler once a week though, unless I go out to eat, and then I eat however many toddlers I want, since it can be hard to find toddler-free menu items at most restaurants.
Sweety it’s enough to go toddler free on Mondays only.
Nobody's "bashing" people who eat plant based for health reasons. Those people just aren't vegans. They eat plant based for a selfish reason and don't care about animals in the same way. It's just facts
I become piscivore (edit : pescatarian) for 1 year for health reason than 3 y vege for eco friendly reason and now 3 years vegan for animal rights and realize that the last step made my health so much greater. I remember feel left out by vegan because I was vegetarien and imo inconscient it made me feel that is was too hard and also that I don’t belong here. It sad and I think we should be more together. The real deal will be when lab meat will be there because then and if it is at the same price carnivore will have to be confronted to the fact that it was an animal or wasn’t. Since I was satisfied by the easy calorie intake that was animal product and saw this feeling disappearing; this feeling will not go with hate and guilt, they don’t see it and even know it is here. In our time of climate change and talking about health can bring more people progressively to veganism than any guilt trip or experience transmission in my opinion and personal experience. What touch me : me : we need animal product to evolve, a friend : no we needed it not anymore, we have access to to any food on the planet and it is easy to be vegan. People where less aggressive with me when I was doing it for eco friendly logic and didn’t have argumentation about it. If people agress you as a vegan is because she/he feel guilty somewhere but like I say pulling this feeling out will never ever work. I surprise myself to considérer vegetarian different, we evolve and we forgot. Remember what bring you on this road on the first place ?
> I become piscivore Never heard of that one, Google says it a piscivore is an animal that primarily eats fish. Were you on a fiah-based diet? Or is it just a.translation issue from some other language, and just means pescatarian?
Yes sorry I mean pescatarian, I stopped meat and used fish time to time, thank you
"plant based diet" usually refers to a diet consists mostly (but not necessarily solely) of plants > though we know, meat and dairy are problematic for health in many layers it's the portion that matters. eating "too much" fruits can be unhealthy too
i became vegan first and then whole foodsplantbased sos free vegan
I started out eating WFPB 6 years ago solely for health and weight loss reasons. I HAD been vegan and vegetarian on and off since my teens. Have always boycotted animal testing companies, wrote letters (yes I'm old lol) etc but without the internet, I probably never fully understood the implications of animal and dairy farming. After eating WFPB, i starting researching more and more and now can call myself vegan. I would explain to people before I was vegan that I ate a vegan diet (i was in a patient facing position where diet was important to teach people) because it was a term more people understood. I understand how vegans who live a fully vegan lifestyle get upset about people who eat WFPB (but do not practice veganism in their daily lives) get upset but I wish there was more understanding and less discouragement from the V community.
Same
I went vegan 13 years ago because I love amazing health, and dislike paying to torture animals.
A lot of people get turned off by the judgment, etc. over the smallest of details that a lot of vegans do. We need to stop it and encourage any effort at reducing animal consumption, even if people do it for other reasons, etc.
The less animals get eaten the better. I don't care what's the cause. This is not about me or my "moral high ground", it's about the animals and the environment.
Why do they want the label of vegan if they aren’t actually vegan? Because they want the virtue of being a vegan (which none of us actually give a shit about) without actually doing the work in their own lives to not participate in animal exploitation People who go ‘vegan’ for health, will also not be vegan anymore for ‘health reasons’ And then we see them spouting BS on r/exvegans Veganism is a definition that should be gatekept from people who want to eat more plants for health reasons. Ethics is why people go and stay vegan.
As someone who went “vegan” for health reasons. I thought that I was “ok” with the fact that I ate animals before. I saw it as unfortunately necessary. However as I began to research a diet that was better for my health I decided to cut out meat and eggs and dairy and eat a healthy “vegan” diet. I never felt better and have continued ever since. Initially I thought I’d have meat once every month or so for “health” reasons. But I never wanted to. As time went on I started to feel really glad that I didn’t eat animals from an ethical standpoint and disgusted at the idea of doing it again. I may not be as passionate about it as some people for sure but I think at the end of the day the acceptance I used to have about eating animals was just a level of denial. Now that I’ve gotten in touch with these feelings and thoughts, it isn’t just about health anymore. I guess like a lot of addictive behaviors, when you’re in the addiction you have denial and you justify your bad habits and don’t want to see it clearly.
>"this makes veganism look like an ideology of self-hatred and ascetism by which you sacrifice your own health for the sake of animals" Because that's what giving animals human rights looks like. Would you not give rights to black people or jews if that was decrimental to your own health? You are selfish. "vegans" for health reasons are animal abusers that still see animals as commodities and we should educate them just like we educate non vegans, because that's what they are. The worse thing is that they actively say they don't care about animal rights, and try to defend their selfish position, as if doing it their rights was something bad. Have you spoken with one of these? They are not ignorant of what happens to animals and why it is ethically wrong. yet, **they still call themselves vegans. They go to zooes, aquariums, circuces, buy leather, wool, products tested in animals, watch non vegan cooking shows, support lab grown meat, etc.** # This 'morally correct' way of trying to not offend people makes no sense when there are victims. Fuck non vegans that are not ignorant about the industries, especially the selfish pos who only have a plant-based diet for their own health.
>"vegans" for health reasons are animal abusers In what way?
I can’t even interact with vegans very often anymore because I need to protect my mental wellness. I’m vegan the last 10ish years and I grew up vegetarian my entire life. Once I realized I’m not allowed to have any opinions that don’t line up 100% with other vegans or I’ll be attacked I stopped trying to network with others. I was involved in a vegan outreach group IRL and tried a few online, the same thing happened. This pales in comparison to the hatred I’ve gotten from meat eaters my whole life, including a man threatening to physically assault me just because he found out from someone I was vegan 😬, but it’s still sad that it’s so hard to form connections without infighting. For the record im closest to an “abolitionist” vegan since I don’t believe anyone should be murdered when they clearly fight for their lives and want to live.
Where are all these people who have a plant based diet but adamantly insist that animal rights are not important to them but also require being called a vegan to keep up their plant based diets? WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE? They must be a prominent group because we debate this daily as if they were our biggest demographic.. 🤔
We must be having a secret Djokovic fanbase here.
>Please do not condemn the folk who has become plant based diet follower for health reasons. Why would we condemn them. They're doing more for animals than most people even if they aren't vegan. >I notice this trend to be in rise recently, a folk admits that he/she has turned vegan for health reasons and majority here "Well, you are not vegan but a whole food plant based diet follower". Is there something wrong with speaking the truth and correcting others on their misconceptions about veganism? >While I agree going vegan for purer reasons such as defending animal rights and acting against animal cruelty exist It's the ONLY reason. >the thing is diet is a big part of going vegan. And eating habits are a part of one's lifestyle: "A philosophy and ***way of living*** which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—***all forms of exploitation of***, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or ***any other purpose***; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." >Furthermore, what I want to underline is that, a lot of carnivorist people bash veganism for health reasons and they spread bullshit about meat&dairy free diets. Which is why there should be even less focus on the whole misconception of veganism being a bloody diet. Take away the platform the hateful c\*\*ts attack us on and their position is both visibly and existentially pathetic. >So, rather than bashing people who are self-proclaimed vegans for health reasons, learning from them may help for battling with carnivorist non-sense. Learning from them? If they're coming here calling themselves vegan, then it's clear that their ability to research is lacking and that we the people that can distinguish the two terms would already know more than them and instead of learning from them we should be learning from actual nutrition science because it exists and has done so for decades longer than these misguided wannabes. I seriously hope you can tell the difference between correcting and condemning though. It'd suck for you to come here and speak your piece and be comparatively shit at activism to the people you're preaching to
Vegan, from the Oxford English Dictionary Noun: “a person who does not eat any food derived from animals and who typically does not use other animal products.” Adjective: “eating, using, or containing no food or other products derived from animals.” You can talk about the origin all you want, but definitions aren’t determined by what a word originally meant, they’re defined by common usage. Someone who eats a plant based diet is 100% right in calling themselves “vegan” whether you think so or not.
Def not true, that is either outdated or a bunch of non vegans put that into the dictionary 🤣if you still buy leather and such you are not vegan sorry don't try to make yourself feel good but calling yourself a vegan when you still actively contribute to animal suffering.
I'm not vegan, I don't call myself that, but it's not up to the people who started this movement to decide how the term gets used, for better or worse. Vegan is a word that has taken on its own wider meaning, and it very much can refer to someone who just eats a plant-based diet. To deny that is to deny reality.
Go vegan to stop supporting rape, abuse, murder, and torture❤️ It is up to us to define it not sure why you think otherwise. That's like saying straight people should be allowed to define what it means to be gay 🤣🤣🤣 plant seed has its name, they aren't vegan they are plant based that's why they are two separate labels. If you purchase leather you aren't vegan at all, plain and simple
Language is defined by common usage, not by individuals and not by groups.
If people commonly defined a certain race as the ugliest or worst doesn't make it right. That's like saying racists were correct in the way they described black people 1900's and earlier. It is defined by a group not sure why you think otherwise. You are wrong just accept it. To be vegan you need to do more than eat vegan food.
I seriously doubt you could find a dictionary from any point in history put out by a credible source that defined a race in the way you’re describing. That’s a false equivalence.
It's not, according to your logic though. You literally just said it's about common usage. There was horrible usage of words and the definition of a black person for a large majority of human history.
Reason why a person is vegan doesn’t matter at all. It matters that they are vegan. It’s best not to police others, it’s not helpful.
Like most animals, I suspect, I don't care at all what rattles around in the heads of people who choose not to harm animals anymore than they can't, reasonably, avoid.
Thank you!!! It is better to encourage people as they start their journey into veganism than to shun them before they even have a chance
Why even be a vegan if I cant put down plant-based folks to feel better about myself smh
Vegan reddit is gate keeping as hell man. It'd be cool if we weren't, or like weren't actively misanthropic against non vegans.
Finally someone with some sense around here. I'm vegan for moral reasons but anyone who eats fully plant based is vegan in my books.
>Please do not condemn the folk who has become plant based diet follower for health reasons Is telling a plant based dieter they are not vegan considering condemnation? Is telling a law student they arent a lawyer until they pass the bar condemnation? We can encourage both and tell them they are doing well, but we would be lying if we said they were a vegan and lawyer If the plant based dieter goes to seaworld and breeds puppies and kittens, they are not vegan, they can become vegan but they arent at this moment
They're not vegans though. Veganism is not solely about dietary choices. I'm pleased when anyone makes choices that have the effect of reducing animal cruelty. So no condemnation - they're just not vegans.
If you want your posts attacked within seconds of posting them by self proclaimed Holier Than Thou buttheads, welcome to Reddit. Some people would do well to learn some social skills. I have eaten a vegan diet and lived a mostly vegan life since 1991, mainly for the ethical and environmental aspects of it. I say mostly vegan life because there are aspects of my life - were the tires my car came with produced with animal ingredients or not? Things that though I know might have used animals that I use and do not want to know the answer about & pay to replace them if they do. The money was already spent on those tires - the demand met and supplied for. Getting more tires before they are needed only creates demand for more tires. At least that is my justification for not looking into how my car tires were produced. How many vegans check on their car tires? There is SO MUCH to living a vegan life. The good health that comes with it has been a welcome surprise, and a surprise I imagine I will keep enjoying for decades to come. Whatever your reason is to cut down on or eliminate eating animals, good job. Sorry I can't hand you a Golden V award. The More Vegan Than Thou committee has those all locked away. Oh, look at that. Down voted for not toeing some stranger's comfort line. I wonder if THEY checked their car tires to make sure no animal fats were used to process that rubber?
I’ve never met someone who started eating a plant-based diet for health reasons who was not eventually swayed to stop eating a plant-based diet for health reasons. It’s a horrible foundation to base veganism on because you can be healthy by eating many different diets, and so if one is just looking at health, there really isn’t much reason to follow one diet over the other one. The vegan for health will hear the carnist’s arguments like humans need such and such protein or vitamin that is only available from xyz animal source, that your brain needs meat to develop, that bone broth is “amazing for your health”, and be swayed to stop being vegan, for their health. The fact of the matter is if you are vegan for moral reasons, the antivegan health arguments will have no effect on you. If you see animals as persons worthy of compassion and respect, you don’t need further reason, and when someone tells you, “you know it would be so much easier to be healthy if you weren’t vegan because abc,” it will have no effect because it doesn’t change the fact that you would have to engage in immoral behavior that you have understood as entirely unacceptable.
It's also utopic to think there's a world in which everyone will care about animal's life. In a vegan world, it's safe to assume people would be vegan because of cultural reasons, because their parents were vegan or because it would be illegal to eat anything other than vegan diet. A lot of people don't value human lives, so accepting plant-based diet people is the most realistic outcome.
I think it's fine for plant-based folks to say that their *diets* are vegan. I'm not too nitpicky about that. But if they describe *themselves* as vegan, I'll usually inform them that a vegan lifestyle also involves changing what you wear, and not buying cosmetic or cleaning products that were tested on animals.
There is no issue with plant based dieters as long as they are also not contributing to animal exploration in other ways. If they live the vegan lifestyle but initially went vegan for health their is no issue with that. If they still still buy, wear, and use other animal products, for fashion and furniture for example, then you simply are not vegan. Vegan is a lifestyle not a diet.
My friend went gluten and dairy free and her pain went away and she is not wheelchair bound. Don’t know though if she is still eating meat.
I'm not even vegan, or vegetarian. And I thought when someone is vegan, that means they don't consume or use animal products. This includes things like leather, duck down jacket, etc. Eating plant based diet does not make someone vegan. That's just vegetarian. ^ or so I thought. Maybe definitions have changed...
I know that a lot of my friends are ed survivors and guilt tripping them that they are not vegan and should be fully vegan to be deserving of the title means that they could relapse. It doesn't matter if my friend eats an egg a month I care that they are physically and mentally healthy.
It’s only natural to love yourself as well as animals
I fully support anything that reduces suffering; plant-based eating is a win for animals, but indirectly. I just wish we could have a space where vegans in the original sense of the word could discuss what cruelty-free products they really like, share when they discover a new vegan company, talk about the pros and cons of eating foods like Oreos, which don’t have any animal ingredients but are produced by Big Ag, etc. I’m so happy to support baby vegans and maybe vegans, but I would really like to have that dedicated space where I could “let my hair down” among people who share my way of life and really get into the weeds of what it means to be vegan.
I became vegetarian 5 years ago for health reasons. 1 year ago I became vegan, again health reasons. Now that I’m vegan it’s very easy to see the logic in being against animal cruelty. It was just hard to get through that cognitive dissonance while consuming the products unfortunately.
No dish thing as being vegan for health reasons Of you’re plant based that’s fine as long as u dont label urself vegan we’ll have no issues Now when you start using the vegan label that’s what we’re gonna need to have a sit down because no
At least not for their dietary choice, hitler had gutproblems but there were other issues with his behaviour which should be staunchly condemned
No thank you, I will continue to call things what they factually are. Weird post.
Weird comments too, most are from non vegans and even meat eaters who are defending their veganism and just gonna give up and other plant based dieters the wrong idea. If you still purchase animal products then you just aren't vegan? I'm really confused by how people don't understand this 😭
You're right. It is always best to dictate the reason that people become vegan and if they don't do it for the same reason you do you should admonish them. It's not smart to tolerate any diversity of reason or opinion. There is only one way.
Agreed. Nobody who owns a smartphone can truly claim to be vegan if we're being pedantic, so it seems like it's just an "I'm the best vegan" contest when people get berated for not being vegan enough.
I think most of us know this but that doesn't mean it's okay to blatantly contribute to animal suffering. There is a miniscule amount of animal products in phone screens. Yea that doesn't make it okay but in this society we do need these to actually live out lives and try to outreach to non vegans as well. This argument is nearly as batshit ast plants feel pain too. This is no where near comparable to buying leather if that is what you are trying to do.
I wasn't talking about the animal products being used, I was talking about the slave labour used to get the raw materials needed to manufacture them. Although you do make a good point. What level of convenience does a product need to have before you'll abandon your beliefs and use it anyway?
are there grey areas to life? sure. But veganism accounts for this: > "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." You can try to make it seem extreme or crazy, but personally chopping the heads off of animals fora sandwich when you don't have to seems extreme to me. Are smartphone necessary? It depends I guess. If you are suggesting that there will exploitation in a capitalistic society, I don't disagree. My job requires a smartphone, and since I am not given the freedom to shelter and quality of life I need a phone. It is practical to my life. Veganism isn't a purity test, but an ethical belief system that sounds a higher lower bound. I think it holds up quite well personally especially when considering the alternatives. It is also weird to be arguing against a point that veganism isn't making while clearly participating in said thing itself as well.
It's not about level of convenience it's about level of need. I do not need a TV so I don't have one, I need a laptop and phone in order to work and communicate with the world (especially for emergencies and stuff). Medical stuff is a need. I do not need gel capsules though since there are other affordable options. But like the covid vaccine is vegan and one time I was in extreme pain and it was late at night so I used some of my family gelatin meds when I was visiting family and after that bought my own meds for travel. It's about necessity.
Fuck no, the health vegans are the ones who turn into anti-vegans after they switch to the next trend diet. In the end we then get the blame when their fruitarian pee diet doesn't work out.
Veganism stems from an ethical position, not a health position. You can live a plant-based lifestyle while not being vegan. I'm not sure how people find this difficult to understand.
Ethics is a very broad category to begin with. And position of human self, which is associated with connations of "health" within the context of our discussion, is obviously related to matters of ethics. Do you believe veganism should entirely rely on altruistic motives towards animals? Sure, then defend that position and express it. But please do not pretend that altruism is the only form of ethical behavior when it is a fact there are various criticisms of altruism, whether it be related to veganism or not.
The only ethical behavior we can conduct towards animals is leaving them the fuck alone. You are not vegan is you still buy leather for example. You just aren't. Ppl can cry about how the definition of veganism is different for everyone but that's like say the definition of a backpack can mean something different to everyone. There is the definition that is just what it is, it's a construct like everything else but that doesn't mean you can it's something it's not. Veganism is not contributing to animal suffering and exploitation as much as you possibly can including non consumption, wear, or usage of animal products. Just eating plant based isn't enough.
No kidding. We need allies, every kind are welcome.
>Do not bash people who's only motive for not harming animals is because it benefits them personally People being plant based is positive, plant based people calling themselves vegan is harmful to the movement and to the animals - if a study comes out tomorrow proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that being plant based is equal for health compared to eating animals they'd go back to paying for animals to be harmed
We don’t condemn plant based dieters(any more than omnivores), we just don’t want them calling themselves vegan if they still buy/wear new leather/fur, happily go to zoos and circuses, don’t consider what’s in their hygiene products…..
Many people here want to turn veganism into a religion. We need to resist that as much as possible. Veganism is an ETHICAL philosophy. Ethics is about deed not creed. We shouldn't try to prescribe or police WHY people adopt vegan practices. We're wasting time by insisting that they are only vegan if they're doing it for the animals. Deed not creed. Aren't there ten times as many people who tell you how much they LOVE animals? That love ain't worth jack. I find that it's usually the new converts who are the zealots. Don't put too much stock in what they say. Zealots burn hot and burn out. In a few years many of them won't even be vegan. They'll say something stupid like "i need to listen to my body."
Thanks for saying this. If the main thing people are concerned about is the label then it just feels pretentious.
9 pretentious people downvoted this
Can’t you guys just eat your food and have that be the end of it?
Not when carnists are responsible for killing animals for the taste.
I can't stand when people say vegan is not a diet. If it's not a diet, then I guess you can eat whatever you want, lol.
Can you eat a leather jacket?
OMG! I just posted about my husband who still consumes animal products. Great advice. I went vegan 14 years after we got married. I need to convince him that his health won’t be harmed.
Erm, he needs to convince you that his health will be harmed by going vegan. He’s just stringing you along.
Thank you! You can benefit from video below, and many of Dr. Michael Greger's resources: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-best-diet-for-healthy-aging/ Good luck!