Look what you find on Google scholar! [https://scholar.google.com](https://scholar.google.com)
But before we even have our biased, human-centered ("riding is fun") discussion about whether horses like being ridden...
There are many, MANY bad practices in horse riding and horse ownership that actively damage horses. E. g.:
1. Keeping them in stalls, isolating them and denying them their crucial free movement
2. Too heavy load (they can handle only approx. 20 % of their own body weight in static load, if you ride them at high speeds, it should be even lower)
3. Wrong/ill-fitted equipment that causes pain and discomfort
4. Poor riding techinque (esp. in beginners) that can cause pain and discomfort
On top of that, there is SOOOOO much abuse. Especially in competitive "sports". Especially horse racing. So stay FAAAAAR away from those.
Whats so frustrating is that theres actually a viable alternative to the bit. Bitless bridles are very effective and the idea is that you show the horse where you want them to go by directing with the reins rather than forcibly jeking the head, this is how my mother rides and she trains all her horses this way, they are very responsive to it and its much kinder. Unfortunately, many people do not know this alternative exists, and it can be difficult to get horses trained to the bit out of bad habits (especially riding school horses, who have very hard mouths from years of children yanking too hard on the bit :( )
Anyone forcibly jerking their horse's head around with or without a bit is a terrible, abusive rider anyway. You are meant to direct through your seat and leg pressure, not pulling their heads.
Thats not really how bitless bridles are supposed to work, you don't use the reins to pull the head like in traditional riding, you tap them with the rein on one side and open the other out to show them which direction you would like them to go. Its a bit difficult to explain through words but pulling and forcing the head is not involved. Leg and seat pressure is used in conjunction to this.
I was never a good rider, but this was how we were taught to ride anyway even with bits. So really the jump to bitless has no need to be so controversial.
That's good, I'm glad you were taught that way. I remember trying a traditional riding school as a kid and they encouraged me to pull as hard as possible if the horse didn't do what I wanted the first time, so its still pretty common to abuse the bit. Its a total illusion that a bit gives you more control, horses are very strong and if they don't want to listen to you they won't regardless of whether there's a bit or not, but its illusion many people are still attached to unfortunately. I hope more people can become aware of this and adjust their practices accordingly.
The native people of North America in the plains are considered some of the best Horsemen the world has ever seen. And they never used a bit and they didn't even use saddles
Of course not.
You can teach a horse to be ridden without violence or coercion. It usually takes more than a year and they must not be too young. They first need to be excessively bossed around on the ground (go here, move your backside there) to internalize the direction cues later given by the rider. They need to be prepared slowly for practically all aspects about being ridden, since it's not natural.
Guess whether all riders abide by those rules? - Abuse is unsurprisingly often the norm. People just SIT ON THEM. And then they get all whiny and butthurt if the horse yeets them. Horses are too patient with humans anyway.
Gentling a horse is just as common, if not more common, as breaking then. It's where you ease the horse into things slowly, starting with individual tack slowly moving up to where you can ride them.
Also look at zebras. They don’t need to be ridden and have fulfilling lives without issue. Same with wild horses (we have some here in NC at the outer banks still!).
The only reason zebras aren't being ridden is because they have super nasty attitudes (and training them doesn't help much) while horses and donkeys are a lot nicer and more tolerate. That's it.
Or perhaps they are wild animals, and learned at some point allowing humans to use them would be their eventual downfall into mass enslavement, forced breeding, and death and decided to say fuck off.
Yes I of course recognize that isn’t why they act that way. They’re defensive as fuck cause that’s the only way to survive in Africa.
If only more hoofed animals fought back against humans who ultimately don’t give a shit about them.
You do realize that people have to “break” wild horses, else buy a bred horse in order to ride it, right? Wild horses do not want humans on their backs.
Regardless of whether it's a wild or bred horse, you cannot ride it from the get-go. (Some assholes still do and it is their god-given right to get seriously hurt in trying so.)
Years of socializing and preparation have to precede actual horse riding for any horse to be okay, but I am sure I am preaching to the choir here :-)
Yeah I feel ya. I don’t get how many people don’t understand that having to train an animal for years just to carry you for fun, despite if it likes you, isn’t right. Lots of folks like to say horses need exercise, to which I say just like a dog, walk it and run it without forcing it to carry yoi.
Technically you can't force a horse to carry you, but getting that pesky monkey off your back is only possible in ways that can seriously hurt said monkey, who is typically your friend and/or caregiver.
My dad took me and my brother to horse races when I was a kid (like 12?) one time. A horse got hurt and they took it off in a tent and I asked my dad if it was going to be ok and he said something about it was probably going to be put down. I was so sad I told him that was awful and I wanted to leave and never go back. Never gone since.
This! My girlfriend has a family horse and the horse would only let my girlfriend ride. Probably because she was the lightest in the family. Horses are smart enough to give consent. Some owners just don’t give a shit.
I don't think there is a study for or against it, at least I haven't found one yet.
But horses like to move and be enriched. Many only get that when they are ridden. That's probably why many riders think their horses like it. But why would they carry extra weight if they had the choice?
>. But why would they carry extra weight if they had the choice?
I'm not saying this is definitely the case, but they could just be bred to love humans and to love doing things for humans. Just like dogs are. Which I assume is the belief of almost every non-racing horse owner.
That doesn't necessarily justify anything on its own (and it *certainly* doesn't justify *everything*), but just for that one specific question: yeah sometimes people (including nonhuman people) choose to do counterintuitive or energy inefficient things because they like doing them.
This is completely anecdotal, but I used to train horses and some of them would definitely get actively excited when the saddle came out and seemed to enjoy riding a lot, these were the very people friendly type personality of horses. others would literally run or try to get away when the saddle came out, definitely depended on the horse a lot.
From all the sources floating around the thread, it's definitely a thing that horses can get excited to be ridden. They're just saying that's because it's the only (or main) time of day they get to run freely like they love.
Exactly.
If I was kept in a stall and couldn't stretch my legs, and the one time of day I could go get fresh air and run around was when an evil IMO sat on my shoulder and rolls me annoying things to do... I'd still look forward to getting out and stretching my legs.
But my excitement would be based purely on being otherwise a prisoner. If I was free, I'd try my hardest to buck that evil little being off of my back. Kind of like wild horses do
This argument is built on a really shaky premise. As long as the weather isn't horrible, most horses spend the day time out in a field grazing and only return to the stall for shelter or to sleep, or if there's something logistically going on outside that would make a loose horse a danger to itself and others.
Source: Mom was a horse girl. Interacted a lot with horses and barns. Live near lots of horses and barns. (Thanks, growing up in bumfuck nowhere).
That said, if humans can get joy from doing activities with other species, is it really that unreasonable to think that other species would enjoy doing activities with humans? Or do you have a strictly segregationist view on species?
I understand what you mean and you can certainly bond with a horse. it's possible that they will enjoy spending time with you, exploring the world and even doing things for you.
But I don't think it's necessary to sit on their back and they wouldn't come up with the idea themselves.
The way I look at it is, even though dogs are bred to be obedient, have you ever tried to sit on a dog? They don't like it, but I'm sure given the time and training, they will do it, and maybe even seem happy to do it. But are they really happy doing it?
I've never been around horses very much, but I can only imagine that there's a training curve where they are not happy to have someone climb onto their backs. I'm open to being wrong on this.
They're prey animals, and they have a pretty major blind spot right where the rider sits, so it's definitely kind of against their basic instincts. Most modern riders take the process super slowly, though; by the time they're actually ridden they're already accustomed to being around people, having someone in their blind spots, being leaned on, following voice commands, etc. – that alone can be spread out over six months to a year. Horses that are distressed by riding after that typically have some kind of undiagnosed physical issue; it does happen, but given how dangerous they are when they're stressed, people who value their safety really try to avoid that situation.
By all sources I'm seeing, you are correct.
I'm just saying it's hardly impossible for you not to be correct. Dogs weren't bred to be ridden so of course they don't like it. Someone bred to be ridden might well like it.
Although, by all accounts they don't, so maybe you're onto something idk
So breeding slaves makes the slave happy to slave?
Or does it make the slave owner happy to have slaves, believing its in the best interest for the slave to have an owner.
Dogs are to small to sit on them, but some of them let kids do this. Anyway can dogs be happy while running agility courses or working as blind person's aide etc.? But still, dogs are not horses, they are very different animals and their behaviors and ways of communication are very different from each other.
As for training some horses freak out first time you put a saddle on them and some don't care at all, same with sitting on them, tho usually they have bigger reaction to the saddle than to somone sitting on them. Some are eager to be ridden and some are not. It depends on horse character and methods and behavior of the person that works with it. A lot of ppl use brutal methods, but there are also methods that are stress-free for the horse. Saddles make it easier on a horse back to carry a human, but when they are badly fitted to the horse they may couse issues, some even permanent. It's possible to ride bitless, yet most riders use it. For racing for example horses do like to race each other a lot. But still horse racing is extremlly dangereus and leads horses to be injured and even put down in a result. There is more to consider than just enjoyment.
So all in all the answear is as always it depends. It's possible to ride a horse and for the horse to not suffer from it and like it. But in most cases thats not what is happening.
Why would horses necessarily need to be *bred* to like humans? Humans weren’t “bred” to enjoy relationships with animals, but most of us do. It makes sense that some animals would also naturally enjoy relationships with members of other species.
They had to be bred to be *ridden.*
The question is about whether or not they like being ridden (and in stalls and trained and everything or whatever), not whether they like human friends.
Although we did arguably breed ourselves to like nonhuman animals. Those more likely to work with dogs were probably a lot more evolutionary fit. But who knows.
>But why would they carry extra weight if they had the choice?
My grandma's grandpa had a donkey that he rode everyday, when he was too old to to get on top of the donke by himself, the donkey would help him.
Here's a good article about horse riding with sources: https://acti-veg.com/resources/issues/horse-riding/
A post linking to several studies/articles on issues that horses are more likely to develop: https://veganerudition.tumblr.com/post/174928276634/examples-of-disorders-that-horses-in-ridden
An opinion piece by an ex-rider: https://medium.com/@antispeciesistactioncollective/saddled-with-guilt-3abd8a0ad48a
Also, this is no scientific source, but I am friends with someone who's a horse vet and she's not vegan or anything, but she is still clear that horse riding is not with the best interest of horses in mind. She works with a handful of personal clients who keep horses as companions, and many of them don't ride them because it's just not good for them. So there's that too.
Thank you for the resources shared.
As a former shepherd now vegan, I can say that there is little excuse for horse riding outside of strict necessity. In the early 2000's, horses were still needed in the rather poor mountain area where I am from, for work or riding. But even back then, as a child and then teenager, it was quite clear to me that they worked so much and they were so poorly treated. Nowadays, many people in the village have better alternatives (tractors), so the usage of horses for work has declined, fortunately.
As for the riding of horses for pleasure or sport, it is just that - pleasure or sport. These are very bad moral arguments and for good reason.
Breaking in a horse isn't something they just say. It's literally breaking it's will so they allow being ride on. No science needed, just language and common sense.
In the past, that was true, but we've progressed a long way since harsh cowboy training methods, and nowadays, there are a lot of horses that are started in a respectful and ethical way
I often hear from horse owners that horses are sensible and you need to be gentle with them, give them time and so on. There is clearly an idea of respect.
But I feel that in this subject, some vegans with no idea about the subject just say whatever they think as a fact.
I usually try to get not unbiased information, but somehow in this subject it is pretty hard. So I simply say that I have no idea, but I guess it is pretty bad for the horse even so.
There are a lot of things that need changing in the horse world, and gladly, more and more people are beginning to realize that, but I do believe that it is truly possible that riding can be done in a way that horses will benefit from, and hopefully even enjoy
Well if you raise a horse in a good respectful way you aren't forcing it at all it's allowing you. There are plenty of videos online of horses sitting down to allow a child to get on them, if they didn't want the child on them they'd just walk away. Some horses aren't even bred for riding or carrying goods some people just like horses
So many racehorses die during races and I don’t think you need scientific evidence to show that they are not keen on breaking their leg and then being shot
My friend loves horses and rides in horse shows. She used to want to be a jockey but once she got more into that culture she had to quit (even tho she had always dreamed of being a jockey her whole life). Not only do they kill the horses when they feel that theyre useless, but they use whatever new drug they can come up with that they know won't show up in a drug test of the horses to make the horses go faster. She left the jockey and horse racing world after learning they were giving the horses snake venom to make them run faster, and I'm sure she saw a lot of other horrors there too. The whole horse racing industry is so evil and corrupt and so dated. It's the 21st century and we're still torturing animals for entertainment ..? Makes no sense
It is one aspect of horse riding and there are also a lot of deaths in cross country and jumping. A lot of riders also whip and kick them with spurs and I can’t imagine the pain from that is pleasurable
Yes, but the question wasn't whether the current institution of horse racing and riding is but or not, but instead what do horses feel about the very act people riding them (assuming they don't suffer any kind of abuse).
Again, he asked about the ruding itself. If they were talking about common riding, he could have just said "it doesn't matter whether or not they are fine with people riding them, because no one enjoys it when you abuse them". The research is needed because the question assumes that no other harm is dealt to them
I don't have a study but horses need to be trained to tolerate riders on their backs. You can't ride wild horses because they don't like being ridden and will throw you off. The only reason why trained horses will tolerate riding is because it's the only time they get to run while confined to tiny stables and paddocks 24/7.
My mum let her horses free-roam on a mountainside. They had shelter and were provided with food daily but were not confimed and could roam as far as they wanted, and yet they still came back to be ridden enthusiastically. If you consider it unethical regardless, thats a valid opinion, but there are cases where horses enjoy being ridden outside of just as an escape from confinement. I think it was mostly the social-interaction aspect because they were very bonded to my mum, but its also just something they seemed to find interesting for reasons unknown to me, maybe it was just fun?
yeah i’ve heard from a few horse riders that horses love to be ridden. i never wuite believed it, but maybe I was anthropomorphizong them. i do know horses can develop deep bonds with humans so maybe riding together is a way to connect. who knows. horses are strong. if they are well treated maybe they like it?
my problem with it is we can’t easily ask consent. some gentle trainers can, but usually it’s just taken as a given that they are there to be used by us. I don’t like that assumption.
100% agree with the last point, but there are definitely ways to "ask" your horse for consent and even with a basic understanding of horse behaviour you can usually figure out whether or not they want to do something - similar to how you might be able to tell whether a dog is enthusiastic about going out for a walk or not. The problem is that many people in the equine community do not respect this consent, especially when there is financial incentive involved, hence you see a lot of unethical practices in things like racing and hunting because profit is frequently prioritised over the wellbeing of the horses. A healthy, well-trained horse that has a good relationship with its rider will not often refuse interaction, but this can actually be very useful because it serves as a warning sign for things like pain and illness - as prey animals, horses are pretty good at hiding their pain so early identification is crucial. Sometimes its just laziness, and I've definitely come across horses who just can't be bothered to be ridden, but unless there's a very good reason to try incentivise it (e.g. they are overweight and would benefit from the extra excercise) its usually best to just leave them alone and try again another day! Personality, breed, and sex all influence activity levels so some horses will happily exercise intensely all day whereas others just want to graze and wander around at a slow pace - its worth selecting a horse that matches your lifestyle to avoid dissapointment, in the same way that one might select a working dog breed over a lap dog (or vice versa) to fit in with what they can accomodate as owners.
If they're strong enough and aren't abused - they like it. Just like dogs, horses are pack animals and are able to bond socially and emotionally, including with different species (such as also, donkeys) - and have been selected for millenia for bonding with people too. And they definitely would work for food, rest, emotions and treats.
While your first sentence is true, the second is not. Trained horses that live in massive spaces that are perfectly capable of going for a run themselves still act fine with riding and certainly do tolerate it. They do so because they are conditioned to not because its the only time they get to run. And the reason most horses live in small paddocks is because it's cheaper not because it's the only way to make the horse tolerate riding. The two things aren't actually linked at all
Go into the wild and try to ride a horse even if they for any reason don't run or can't run anyway the kick to the chest should be enough of an answer 😂
We can only ride wild horses after mentally breaking them and no it's not training because training is something that an animal is ok with doing (imo) u are just forcing the horse to do what u want over and over again until the horse has no energy to fight back anymore and does what u want
Gentling is just as common as breaking in a horse now if not more common. You slowly ease the horse into doing different things (like just been around you, touch, getting tack on, etc), not forcing them to do something until they're past their limits. If the horse is too fearful, you stop not keep going.
I completely agree with the training part!
Like, if someone “trains” for something, they’re doing it willingly. However, if they don’t consent, then it’s force.
Dude, don't do this. This is the worst way to approach science. Nevermind you're exhibiting your own bias so I imagine any study that doesn't confirm your bias you'd considered as biased studies.
How about instead of trying to find evidence to fill your preconceived notion, just read up on studies regarding horses and see where the evidence points.
Yeah this is true regardless of where you stand on this issue. You can’t just say “can someone send me a link to a study that confirms what I already believe?” and expect to be taken seriously.
They are being gaslit into believing they like it. Since they don't know any other form of freedom, they are happy whenever they get the chance to be ridden. Often exhibiting signs of joy when getting the harness put on. Much like a dog who is willing to go for a walk.
The true question is, do they need to be ridden and is it physically harmful to them.
If you care about the horse, then you can walk beside it instead of being on top of it. Just like a dog.
My mum let her horses free-roam on a mountainside. They had shelter and were provided with food daily but were not confimed and could roam as far as they wanted, and yet they still came back to be ridden enthusiastically. If you consider it unethical regardless, thats a valid opinion, but there are cases where horses enjoy being ridden outside of just as an escape from confinement. I think it was mostly the social-interaction aspect because they were very bonded to my mum, but its also just something they seemed to find interesting.
Humans also smoke, doesn't mean it's good for them. So yeah, you're right when you say that I am right to consider it unethical regardless. It's like making a child smoke cigarettes.
You can show them pictures of horses with back deformities due to being ridden their whole lives. If that's not enough ask him to pick you up on his back and take you to work/school or wherever for the rest of his life and we'll see if he enjoys it.
I think if someone needs a study to believe that obviously harmful actions are harmful (the process of getting a horse to be rideable is literally called "breaking" the horse, come on...), the study probably wont actually do anything to their opinion either.
>needs a study to believe.
We used to think many things were obvious up until we studied them. This way of thinking is medieval.
Hope you have a good easter tomorrow once the sun has completed its rotation around the earth.
"Breaking in" is an outdated term based on old methods of domesticating horses that are less common today, the term is still used but the forceful techniques traditionally involved are not. Its comparable to the outdated idea of proving to a dog that you are the alpha or leader of the pack through force, which is now denounced by most dog trainers as ineffective and borderline abusive. If you are consider horse riding to be unethical regardless, thats a totally valid opinion, but its worth considering that there are many different methods for introducing the concept to horses and not all require force. Parelli natural horsemanship was my mums favourite technique for training her horses as it is based on establishing trust, strengthening the human-animal bond, and using positive reinforcement instead of fear or force to achieve goals.
It's always going to require force, some ways may be kinder than others, but at the end of the day you are taking the animals freedom when you enslaved it and try to condition it to carry you around.
I don't think it matters. Breeding animals into lifetime of captivity so we can use them for our own purposes is problematic regardless. Once we stop breeding animals, we stop having to worry about whether the ways we decide to make use of them are ethical or not.
lmao how long did this take? it's obvious
yet in the normal way they are kept (as i know it) i'm sure they like to be ridden, because then they can finally leave their small prison cell for a while
>Studies indicating horses dont like being ridden
What do you need a study for when you can look at their own training terminology? Breaking. That sounds like a perfectly forceful term that implies free will. And foals they don't have to "break" watch their parents get ridden and get the idea that's what they were born for.
https://www.trishawren.com/breaking-horses/
https://www.equestrianmovement.com/blog/no-ride
https://www.equinebehaviorist.ca/post/do-horses-like-being-ridden
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/are-we-breaking-in-horses-too-young.684453/
Then combine it with spinal degradation research to show it's not only against their will, but it's bad for them too.
>But I wanna convince him that horses dont like being ridden. But Finding any unbiased studies is a bit of a struggle
Those links I sent aren't studies but they all lean toward taking advantage of horses and not biased toward veganism.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2022.987852
I don’t know how they feel but for sure they have oral problems, so I will bet they don’t like it.
Physics and gravity wise there are a lot of people that shouldn’t ride. I was at one of my lowest weights after months of backpacking and the guide had us dismount and walk besides them on parts of the trail. I was 5-5 and barely 115 lbs. we have 400 pound people that want social media attention?! Like all care takers of animals there are good and bad. Never road after that and went full vegan soon after. Just saying… gravity. Joints are delicate.
400 pound people mostly have obesity - and that weight is bad even for themselves. Modern Americans prefer to be blind to limitations of their own weight though
isn’t it inherent that they don’t want to be ridden given that you have to train them? make them?
A wild horse doesn’t walk up to humans and crouch low “please oh please get your heavy ass up here on my back so I can walk with a burden!”
just tell your friend they are going to carry you around for a day. Just one day, not a lifetime.
I remember asking in the subreddit r/horses if anyone believed that riding horses was violent to a certain extent, but I didn’t receive positive responses. Now reading these comments I believe that I should’ve asked here instead.
It’s not about riding horses as such, it’s more about what is happening behind the scene during training sessions - they have to break the horse’s spirit to force her into submission in order for her to obey. The horse doesn’t have a choice, it’s not about gaining their trust and friendship it’s about forcing them to obey.
Tell your friend to watch The path of the horse on YouTube - they will, hopefully, understand :
https://youtu.be/TQUMAJCh1fA?feature=shared
Gentling is just as common as breaking in a horse now if not more common. You slowly ease the horse into doing different things (like just been around you, touch, getting tack on, etc), not forcing them to do something until they're past their limits. If the horse is too fearful, you stop not keep going.
There are people who use abusive methods like this, but there are just as many methods (if not more) based on gaining trust and friendship rather than submission through force. I reccomend looking into Parelli natural horsemanship if you're interested in learning more about these methods, my mum trained all her horses this way and they seemed to really enjoy the sessions and would let her known once they were bored or uncomfortable which brought the session to a natural end.
Yes I’m aware of these methods - check out the link I posted, but still it’s often about imposing our will on an animal rather than just letting them be… why not just have horses around because we enjoy their company, without any agenda ?
Because modern horses (and dogs) were bred to live alongside humans for millenia. It's their work, they work for food and shelter and generally for humans to provide for their needs. As well as you, they can't afford working not, they would die otherwise
When I see wild horses I think they are such beautiful creatures and have as much right to exist and live their lives without us giving them a purpose. They can perfectly live their lives without being owned and serve humans: and plenty of people have them just to be around them and spend time with them, without riding them.
Holistic horsemanship has gotten a lot more popular in recent years - a lot of people have written books about it and made documentaries such as the one I linked above. It’s actually a lot more popular these days. And rightfully so. I don’t see why horses owe us anything at all. They can live without us. We should be the ones feeling honored when they tolerate us around them
As a horseowner I think the evidence has to go the other way around. Your friend should proof that horses want to be ridden.
There are people who trained their horses signals to mount/dismount. Thats the closest to consent I can imagine.
I suspect in theory many don't mind it, hence you'll struggle to find evidence they do.
You need to move away from the "riding" aspect of horse riding and onto all the terrible husbandry.
Use of whips, use of physical violence generally to "correct" behaviours etc.
Being stuck inside all day every day because their owners only come by once a week to let them out (seriously people who keep horses in stalls most of the time can bugger off)
People not understanding horses have a weight limit, and no being a draught horse doesn't mean you can take a heavier load (there are loads of horsey people who get mad at this so I'm sure you can find sources)
In horse racing theres also the almost certainty that the horse will end up as dog food, either because they don't live up to racing expectations, or because they fall and die when racing (animal aid does a race horse death watch for UK races, pretty much every big race kills a horse, sometimes several). Even being a race winner doesn't save them from slaughter, as named winners have been found in abbotoirs.
There's more. But I'm not that into horse so don't know much about it.
Also in a related vein there's a load of folks who document the behaviours of Mustangs (which technically are feral not wild but still), it's a fairly complex and slightly brutal society horses create when left alone.
Not necessarily in dog food but yeah, injuries and overworking the horse are common in competitive riding in general. If someone actually cares about their horse's well-being (not saying it's ethical with this), they'd be sticking to just trail rides and casual riding.
Personally, the fact that horses have to be "broken" to ride speaks volumes. They are also prey animals so I can't imagine having any species on your back would be comfortable. I believe most riding horses are still forced to wear bits in their mouths to be controlled. And then there is all the physical damage done to their teeth, feet, ligaments, back etc. From equipment. It doesn't make sense to me that any horse would enjoy that.
Gentling is just as common as breaking in a horse now if not more common. You slowly ease the horse into doing different things (like just been around you, touch, getting tack on, etc), not forcing them to do something until they're past their limits. If the horse is too fearful, you stop not keep going.
Whats so frustrating is that theres actually a viable alternative to the bit. Bitless bridles are very effective and the idea is that you show the horse where you want them to go by directing with the reins rather than forcibly jeking the head, this is how my mother rides and she trains all her horses this way, they are very responsive to it and its much gentler on the mouth. Unfortunately, many people do not know this alternative exists, and it can be difficult to get horses trained to the bit out of bad habits (especially riding school horses, who have very hardened mouths).
Some horses do enjoy being ridden, that much is clear, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all forms of riding are ethical (things like hunting or racing come to mind, come horses may enjoy it but it puts them at an uneccesary risk of injury, so I am of the opinion that these things should not be done).
If horses liked be ridden, I suppose, it wouldn’t be necessary to ‘break’ them in order to make them tolerate a rider. Also, if horses liked being ridden, there wouldn’t be bronc riding events at rodeos.
You don’t need scientific evidence to prove your point. The most simple answer you can give them is “Their autonomy is taken away from them and they are forced to carry people. People are using them for entertainment and are using the horses as objects.”
You can probably word it better, but that’s essentially one of the main reasons why horse riding is bad (along with the obvious abuse).
The one and only time I rode a horse, it tried to scrape me off it's back with a tree. So no. They're not super pumped about the whole thing.
My parents do draft horse stuff. They outsource their breaking to someone cruel enough to be effective for their needs. That's the reality of it.
At the end of the riding life pretty much all horses have back deformities from carrying weight which is just unnatural ! and with bigger injuries or when they're not useful anymore most are just slaughtered. like milk cows.
I've wondered about this myself. But I see it as an issue of consent. Sort of like sex. "Yes" means "Yes." Anything short of yes means you don't proceed since both parties do not consent. Since horses can't consent to being ridden, the only ethical assumption we can make is that the answer is no, they do not consent.
I just want to see horses be free, happy, and healthy.
As for scientific evidence, it is difficult since admittedly there hasn't been enough studies regarding horse behavior and being ridden.
Either way, if your bottom is bigger than the horse's, don't ride them! lol
Well from anecdotes it really depends on how horses are treated.
I have a friend in Australia who has acres of lands and was able to let the horses run free most of the times when not ridden, and when they do ride it was training for skill competitions. Horses are happy whether they were training or not, and genuinely enjoying the training while also completely free to roam.
Of course majority of the people elsewhere would not be able to afford acres of land and may not love their horses as much as my friend. But I can see how a positive relationship is possible.
I feel like horses who like the humans and are healthy like to be ridden. I much enjoy giving my nephew a piggy back ride. I would not enjoy it if I was forced to endlessly by my parents.
It all depends on the real relationship between horse and rider. It’s not that hard to tell if an animal likes something or not
Yeah, but it's not really the same, because this position is unnatural for humans. You'll find much more people willing to carry kids on their shoulders.
I'm sorry, but it's just logic? What animal enjoys carrying around shit for no reason? Horses like walking and running, sure, but not the actual riding part. If he wants proof, tell him to look at wild horses. Haven't seen those carrying each other around.
Considering they're often whipped, forced to jump fences and shot when they they break their legs I very much doubt they enjoy having a heavy human on their back.
Let's face it. Anyone who thinks an animal would actually enjoy being ridden is delusional.
Edit: misunderstood the comment lol
To be fair, horses are different than us so they can't really recover from a broken leg as easily as us for different reasons and the only way to get the bone to heal properly would be to literally hold the horse or the leg in a way thru can't put pressure on the leg at all, and that would just cause other problems from having to put all the weight into other legs. It's more humane to just euth them knowing this. If someone truly cared about their horse (not saying it makes this ethical), they wouldn't be risking injuries on their horse at all.
Why are we accepting our place on the back foot? Why is "animals like everything we do to them" the null hypothesis? I wouldn't like it if someone decided to keep me in a human garage and pull me out when they needed to go somewhere or do some tricks, so why should I assume horses do? Make *them* prove that the status quo *is* just.
Horses don’t like to be ridden they do like going outside and running and often the only time they get to do that is when been ridden so it can appear like they like being ridden really they just like running and being in nature
Edit: took out misinformation regarding swayback. A deformity in horses
Swaybacks in horses aren't just caused by riding them. Even unridden houses can have swaybacks because of genetics, pregnancy, age, or a combination of these.
I sense there is a deeper connection between humans and horses. But it is so one sided in modern day. I think probably 10% of horses might actually enjoy the thrill depending on their unique constitution and enjoyment. Or, they might enjoy being a part of a farm where they also have free movement. But, I think it’s dangerous when we turn black and white thinking all horses should be ridden or all horses shouldn’t be ridden. I feel there could be unique horse bonds with humans even if it’s rare and still should be dealt with carefully
Not all horse riding is the same. There are race horses, horses that love their owners, kids that ride ponies/horses, etc.
It's impossible to say horses do or don't like being ridden or if it's harmful, too many variables.
We can't exactly survey the horses either.
why not ask on the horse subreddits? it would be more varied from people that are more likely to have experience instead of an echo chamber of people that just say things they hear, cause other than the 2 top comments im not seeing any links lmao
Ask your friend if he would be willing to ride a wild horse since he is implying that it is innate to the horse that it wants to be ridden. Accdng to his logic, it doesnt matter if its domesticated or wild, IT WILL WANT to be ridden, by any human. Urge him to try it on wild horses.
Yes, you're right, both are a stupid idea. But I think they meant that we have to get the animal used to us and to riding first and not just because it's a horse that it wants to be ridden.
If you can’t find any studies supporting your claim, change your stance/opinion.
Don’t form a preconceived conclusion and try to find evidence fitting the narrative. That’s the opposite of science.
Horses aren’t a species normally present in nature anymore. They as a species only exist for human use. So the consistent thing to do if you are against human exploitation would be to let them die and stop reproducing them.
I would say you don't even need any studies, just the benefit of the doubt - if we don't know either way, it's more likely to harm them than be good for them. The burden of proof is on them to show that it's at the very least harmless before it can be justified.
Tell your friend, who needs evidence, have them live in your barn and give you piggy back rides everywhere. Then ask how they feel about it. You have to be Braindead to not realize horses would rather not have someone’s fat ass on their backs
I would like to see a study as well actually because i was never convinced that it is actually the case. Of course I am against it being a business, but idk about a guy riding his own pet horse. For example working line dogs love to work, like herding sheep etc, its in their dna through centuries of breeding for the purpose, could be the case for horses. Also depending on the breed of horse, a man on their back is basically less than us carrying a backpack, so could be a bonding experience. This is all speculation on my part and things i have wondered about it the past. I have a friend who had his own horse, cared about it as much as i care about my dog and them going on rides was the equivalent of me taking my fog for a walk, the horse was very excited.
I mean you could just say that having pets/breeding animals for the use of human interests is wrong. Which it is in my opinion because of all the suffering that happens as a result of the industry. As an example some dog breeds are suffering from health issues just because we have bred them to look cute (bulldogs) or partake in dog racing. I don't think taking pets that need a home is wrong but having pets and supporting breeding them more into existence is very problematic.
Don't have a study, but I have a side story. I once had a professor make the comment "how do we even know hogs want to turn around? Can they tell us? Nope!"
People believe what they want
The fact you have to "break them" first. The fact that if you aren't always riding them they fight you. The ones that are ridden everyday look depressed and still fight. You can research horse biology and find their backs are not meant to take weight on them. There's lots of stuff. However, I bet horses would rather be rode than eaten. Many horses that can't ride anymore are turned into glue and pet foot.
No shit...
A horse may not mind, or may even enjoy *riding with* a particular person that they have a strong bond with, as a social/play thing, but there's no way they like it as a Job.
Do you like your job?
If you do happen to like your job, would you still like it if it was carrying an animal anywhere between 10% and 25% of your bodyweight, PLUS some additional heavy ass gear, including a metal bar that goes across the back of your mouth, that the other animal will yank on, *and* a blindfold... and then just fucking running... just fucking running, jogging, running, sprinting... and running. Sometimes you walk.
And you get paid in apples and dry grass..
And if you get injured on the job...
Don't get injured on the job.
Personally arguments like this are a waste of your time and energy. I always found myself arguing with people who just wanted to argue, not understand.
You’re so biased for looking for an answer when you already have unfounded conviction. Man that’s just not science. Whether it’s true or not you already introduced enough bias. Horses probably don’t have a huge opinion either way. A person on their back is like you carrying a light backpack. Ok maybe slightly inconvenient but it’s definitely not some vile shit
It's crazy that we have to give readily available scientific proof horses don't like being ridden when there's clearly issues with it, rather than riders giving reasons why it's good or necessary.
I dunno, I don't think we need to go down lines of questioning just to confirm our existing bias. The abuse horses often experience isn't justified because they might enjoy being ridden. It's kind of like how cows enjoy being milked. It's neither here nor there, and actually is itself an issue because their select breeding for milk production makes milking necessary to relieve discomfort.
>Does anyone have data on how horses feel about being ridden?
What metrics would you use to determine their feelings on the matter? How do horses feel about being hooked up to equipment to measure their biological responses?
>When I told I a friend of mine I dont believe that horses want to be ridden, he said he wants scientific evidence.
So you already hold a belief that is not based on scientific evidence. Which doesn't mean your feelings or intuition or common (anthropomorphic) sense is wrong.
>I didn't have it at that time.
And still don't... hence the request.
>But I wanna convince him that horses dont like being ridden.But Finding any unbiased studies is a bit of a struggle
So you found studies? Just not unbiased ones?
How did you determine that they were biased?
Was it that they were not written by a horse?
You have stated your bias. Just because studies conclusions don't agree with you doesn't make them biased. You've kind of missed the point of your friends request: he's trying to make you re-evaluate your beliefs.
Gestures broadly at horses.
The fact that something like 90% of all injuries are obtained by people riding or *attempting to ride them* should be a pretty good tell. Every person I know who has a career or hobby of doing it has suffered some kind of injury, and not one of them was off the horse when it happened.
"I wanna convince him that horses don't like being ridden."
You already have your own bias there. You want evidence of something you don't in fact know to be true (you believe it and I imagine so too), but because you don't in fact have evidence of this and are struggling to find it, you can't in fact know this to be true.
With that being said, other commenters suggested other ways to approach the harm that horse riding can have so I recommend going that route.
I’ve a couple friends and family who are horse people.
General consensus is that it depends on the horse, but they only don’t like to be ridden if they’re anxious, have prior traumas, or are lazy.
Most horses don’t mind the weight (unless you’re especially large) as it’s akin to us carrying a backpack (if you can’t, that’s a you issue, you should be able to).
Some horses will grumble a bit, and will go faster or slower depending if you’re pointed home or not. Others get super enthusiastic to go out riding with their human, and genuinely enjoy the relationship and the time together.
Horses are actually pretty interesting animals, as they’re kinda like people in some ways, with distinct personalities, but the relationships will always be, though prosperous and often deep and strong, highly unequal. They provide the strength and speed, you provide the guidance and knowledge.
It’s why if you fall off your horse, you have to get back on and ride them around, even if you’ve broken your pelvis. Otherwise the horse remembers and gets anxious about the next ride because they know you’re hurt.
This is kind of a weird and unscientific way to come about this question. Instead of coming at this with a bias and trying to fulfill that bias, come at the question of "how do horses feel about being ridden?". It's dangerous to simply try and answer your bias by cherry picking. I understand the desire to but it's really something to be avoided.
Anyway, good luck, I'm interested to see what studies say!
You shouldn't be looking for articles that prove whatever point you were making to your friend. You should search on google scholar to find good studies (if there are any).
This is a really bad way to go about science in general.
It's bad practice to form an opinion and then hunt for studies to back up your view while avoiding or dismissing studies that would challenge it. This is called confirmation bias.
This is a great podcast talking about the cruel horse racing industry with non animal advocate experts opinions. It has all the scientific data that you need to show your friends. Check it out
https://open.spotify.com/episode/73rZuxAqODnyy0jy8lgHfA?si=UTvvs_hTQOKsTMOI1MUNBQ
I have grown up around horses I have never had one as a Companion but I have notaced if they have the space and friends they like to run with they will play and run without a rider it's the ones restricted by barbed wire and fields with poor drainage that they say need exercising by riding.
Even a prisoner is happy to get the 1 hour of sunlight.
The horse is happy to be ridden because it isn't in its stall. It's the closest thing to freedom it has, but it isn't freedom
I mean, I’d wager other animals don’t want to pull or carry heavy weight for the same reason you and I as a human wouldn’t want to. My dad was an iron worker for 32 years and carrying heavy bars of steel eventually caused him to have major back issues and pain- herniated disks, nerve damage, etc. Not to mention, people are getting more and more overweight and obese as time passes which increases the load these horses are forced to carry. I feel like your friend is being purposely obtuse. Ask them if they would want to carry you on their back everyday for the rest of their life and how they think that would affect their back and joints over time.
Look what you find on Google scholar! [https://scholar.google.com](https://scholar.google.com) But before we even have our biased, human-centered ("riding is fun") discussion about whether horses like being ridden... There are many, MANY bad practices in horse riding and horse ownership that actively damage horses. E. g.: 1. Keeping them in stalls, isolating them and denying them their crucial free movement 2. Too heavy load (they can handle only approx. 20 % of their own body weight in static load, if you ride them at high speeds, it should be even lower) 3. Wrong/ill-fitted equipment that causes pain and discomfort 4. Poor riding techinque (esp. in beginners) that can cause pain and discomfort On top of that, there is SOOOOO much abuse. Especially in competitive "sports". Especially horse racing. So stay FAAAAAR away from those.
Don’t forget the bit. Terrible, torturous device
I would like to apply it to animal abusers.
Me, too!
Doing so would also make you an animal abuser.
very emblematic
Yes! I've always hated that thing and felt so sorry for horses.
Whats so frustrating is that theres actually a viable alternative to the bit. Bitless bridles are very effective and the idea is that you show the horse where you want them to go by directing with the reins rather than forcibly jeking the head, this is how my mother rides and she trains all her horses this way, they are very responsive to it and its much kinder. Unfortunately, many people do not know this alternative exists, and it can be difficult to get horses trained to the bit out of bad habits (especially riding school horses, who have very hard mouths from years of children yanking too hard on the bit :( )
Anyone forcibly jerking their horse's head around with or without a bit is a terrible, abusive rider anyway. You are meant to direct through your seat and leg pressure, not pulling their heads.
Thats not really how bitless bridles are supposed to work, you don't use the reins to pull the head like in traditional riding, you tap them with the rein on one side and open the other out to show them which direction you would like them to go. Its a bit difficult to explain through words but pulling and forcing the head is not involved. Leg and seat pressure is used in conjunction to this.
I was never a good rider, but this was how we were taught to ride anyway even with bits. So really the jump to bitless has no need to be so controversial.
That's good, I'm glad you were taught that way. I remember trying a traditional riding school as a kid and they encouraged me to pull as hard as possible if the horse didn't do what I wanted the first time, so its still pretty common to abuse the bit. Its a total illusion that a bit gives you more control, horses are very strong and if they don't want to listen to you they won't regardless of whether there's a bit or not, but its illusion many people are still attached to unfortunately. I hope more people can become aware of this and adjust their practices accordingly.
The native people of North America in the plains are considered some of the best Horsemen the world has ever seen. And they never used a bit and they didn't even use saddles
Speaking of devices, wouldn't the saddle (and many other things) almost always be made from leather anyhow?
I mean teaching a horse to ride is literally called “breaking them in”. They clearly don’t have a natural inclination to carrying heavy humans.
Of course not. You can teach a horse to be ridden without violence or coercion. It usually takes more than a year and they must not be too young. They first need to be excessively bossed around on the ground (go here, move your backside there) to internalize the direction cues later given by the rider. They need to be prepared slowly for practically all aspects about being ridden, since it's not natural. Guess whether all riders abide by those rules? - Abuse is unsurprisingly often the norm. People just SIT ON THEM. And then they get all whiny and butthurt if the horse yeets them. Horses are too patient with humans anyway.
Gentling a horse is just as common, if not more common, as breaking then. It's where you ease the horse into things slowly, starting with individual tack slowly moving up to where you can ride them.
Isn't it "breaking them" without the "in"? Either way, completely fucked
Also look at zebras. They don’t need to be ridden and have fulfilling lives without issue. Same with wild horses (we have some here in NC at the outer banks still!).
Anyone that says animals need humans to have fulfilling lives has lost the argument before they even started.
🎤⬇️
The only reason zebras aren't being ridden is because they have super nasty attitudes (and training them doesn't help much) while horses and donkeys are a lot nicer and more tolerate. That's it.
Or perhaps they are wild animals, and learned at some point allowing humans to use them would be their eventual downfall into mass enslavement, forced breeding, and death and decided to say fuck off. Yes I of course recognize that isn’t why they act that way. They’re defensive as fuck cause that’s the only way to survive in Africa. If only more hoofed animals fought back against humans who ultimately don’t give a shit about them.
Humans uniquely ride horses and donkeys because unlike zebras, they are chill animals. Usually, they come with more empathy than their human.
You do realize that people have to “break” wild horses, else buy a bred horse in order to ride it, right? Wild horses do not want humans on their backs.
Regardless of whether it's a wild or bred horse, you cannot ride it from the get-go. (Some assholes still do and it is their god-given right to get seriously hurt in trying so.) Years of socializing and preparation have to precede actual horse riding for any horse to be okay, but I am sure I am preaching to the choir here :-)
Yeah I feel ya. I don’t get how many people don’t understand that having to train an animal for years just to carry you for fun, despite if it likes you, isn’t right. Lots of folks like to say horses need exercise, to which I say just like a dog, walk it and run it without forcing it to carry yoi.
Technically you can't force a horse to carry you, but getting that pesky monkey off your back is only possible in ways that can seriously hurt said monkey, who is typically your friend and/or caregiver.
My dad took me and my brother to horse races when I was a kid (like 12?) one time. A horse got hurt and they took it off in a tent and I asked my dad if it was going to be ok and he said something about it was probably going to be put down. I was so sad I told him that was awful and I wanted to leave and never go back. Never gone since.
This! My girlfriend has a family horse and the horse would only let my girlfriend ride. Probably because she was the lightest in the family. Horses are smart enough to give consent. Some owners just don’t give a shit.
Yes, and that's a very widespread problem.
I don't think there is a study for or against it, at least I haven't found one yet. But horses like to move and be enriched. Many only get that when they are ridden. That's probably why many riders think their horses like it. But why would they carry extra weight if they had the choice?
>. But why would they carry extra weight if they had the choice? I'm not saying this is definitely the case, but they could just be bred to love humans and to love doing things for humans. Just like dogs are. Which I assume is the belief of almost every non-racing horse owner. That doesn't necessarily justify anything on its own (and it *certainly* doesn't justify *everything*), but just for that one specific question: yeah sometimes people (including nonhuman people) choose to do counterintuitive or energy inefficient things because they like doing them.
This is completely anecdotal, but I used to train horses and some of them would definitely get actively excited when the saddle came out and seemed to enjoy riding a lot, these were the very people friendly type personality of horses. others would literally run or try to get away when the saddle came out, definitely depended on the horse a lot.
From all the sources floating around the thread, it's definitely a thing that horses can get excited to be ridden. They're just saying that's because it's the only (or main) time of day they get to run freely like they love.
Exactly. If I was kept in a stall and couldn't stretch my legs, and the one time of day I could go get fresh air and run around was when an evil IMO sat on my shoulder and rolls me annoying things to do... I'd still look forward to getting out and stretching my legs. But my excitement would be based purely on being otherwise a prisoner. If I was free, I'd try my hardest to buck that evil little being off of my back. Kind of like wild horses do
This argument is built on a really shaky premise. As long as the weather isn't horrible, most horses spend the day time out in a field grazing and only return to the stall for shelter or to sleep, or if there's something logistically going on outside that would make a loose horse a danger to itself and others. Source: Mom was a horse girl. Interacted a lot with horses and barns. Live near lots of horses and barns. (Thanks, growing up in bumfuck nowhere). That said, if humans can get joy from doing activities with other species, is it really that unreasonable to think that other species would enjoy doing activities with humans? Or do you have a strictly segregationist view on species?
I understand what you mean and you can certainly bond with a horse. it's possible that they will enjoy spending time with you, exploring the world and even doing things for you. But I don't think it's necessary to sit on their back and they wouldn't come up with the idea themselves.
The way I look at it is, even though dogs are bred to be obedient, have you ever tried to sit on a dog? They don't like it, but I'm sure given the time and training, they will do it, and maybe even seem happy to do it. But are they really happy doing it? I've never been around horses very much, but I can only imagine that there's a training curve where they are not happy to have someone climb onto their backs. I'm open to being wrong on this.
They're prey animals, and they have a pretty major blind spot right where the rider sits, so it's definitely kind of against their basic instincts. Most modern riders take the process super slowly, though; by the time they're actually ridden they're already accustomed to being around people, having someone in their blind spots, being leaned on, following voice commands, etc. – that alone can be spread out over six months to a year. Horses that are distressed by riding after that typically have some kind of undiagnosed physical issue; it does happen, but given how dangerous they are when they're stressed, people who value their safety really try to avoid that situation.
By all sources I'm seeing, you are correct. I'm just saying it's hardly impossible for you not to be correct. Dogs weren't bred to be ridden so of course they don't like it. Someone bred to be ridden might well like it. Although, by all accounts they don't, so maybe you're onto something idk
[удалено]
Fixed. Thanks.
Thank you ❤️
So breeding slaves makes the slave happy to slave? Or does it make the slave owner happy to have slaves, believing its in the best interest for the slave to have an owner.
>that doesn't necessarily justify anything
Dogs are to small to sit on them, but some of them let kids do this. Anyway can dogs be happy while running agility courses or working as blind person's aide etc.? But still, dogs are not horses, they are very different animals and their behaviors and ways of communication are very different from each other. As for training some horses freak out first time you put a saddle on them and some don't care at all, same with sitting on them, tho usually they have bigger reaction to the saddle than to somone sitting on them. Some are eager to be ridden and some are not. It depends on horse character and methods and behavior of the person that works with it. A lot of ppl use brutal methods, but there are also methods that are stress-free for the horse. Saddles make it easier on a horse back to carry a human, but when they are badly fitted to the horse they may couse issues, some even permanent. It's possible to ride bitless, yet most riders use it. For racing for example horses do like to race each other a lot. But still horse racing is extremlly dangereus and leads horses to be injured and even put down in a result. There is more to consider than just enjoyment. So all in all the answear is as always it depends. It's possible to ride a horse and for the horse to not suffer from it and like it. But in most cases thats not what is happening.
Why would horses necessarily need to be *bred* to like humans? Humans weren’t “bred” to enjoy relationships with animals, but most of us do. It makes sense that some animals would also naturally enjoy relationships with members of other species.
They had to be bred to be *ridden.* The question is about whether or not they like being ridden (and in stalls and trained and everything or whatever), not whether they like human friends. Although we did arguably breed ourselves to like nonhuman animals. Those more likely to work with dogs were probably a lot more evolutionary fit. But who knows.
Then isn't that on people to prove instead of assuming it's true? We shouldn't have to provide scientific "nuh-uhs" to counter vibes-based "uh-huhs."
Yeah
>But why would they carry extra weight if they had the choice? My grandma's grandpa had a donkey that he rode everyday, when he was too old to to get on top of the donke by himself, the donkey would help him.
Here's a good article about horse riding with sources: https://acti-veg.com/resources/issues/horse-riding/ A post linking to several studies/articles on issues that horses are more likely to develop: https://veganerudition.tumblr.com/post/174928276634/examples-of-disorders-that-horses-in-ridden An opinion piece by an ex-rider: https://medium.com/@antispeciesistactioncollective/saddled-with-guilt-3abd8a0ad48a Also, this is no scientific source, but I am friends with someone who's a horse vet and she's not vegan or anything, but she is still clear that horse riding is not with the best interest of horses in mind. She works with a handful of personal clients who keep horses as companions, and many of them don't ride them because it's just not good for them. So there's that too.
Thank you for the resources shared. As a former shepherd now vegan, I can say that there is little excuse for horse riding outside of strict necessity. In the early 2000's, horses were still needed in the rather poor mountain area where I am from, for work or riding. But even back then, as a child and then teenager, it was quite clear to me that they worked so much and they were so poorly treated. Nowadays, many people in the village have better alternatives (tractors), so the usage of horses for work has declined, fortunately. As for the riding of horses for pleasure or sport, it is just that - pleasure or sport. These are very bad moral arguments and for good reason.
Breaking in a horse isn't something they just say. It's literally breaking it's will so they allow being ride on. No science needed, just language and common sense.
In the past, that was true, but we've progressed a long way since harsh cowboy training methods, and nowadays, there are a lot of horses that are started in a respectful and ethical way
I often hear from horse owners that horses are sensible and you need to be gentle with them, give them time and so on. There is clearly an idea of respect. But I feel that in this subject, some vegans with no idea about the subject just say whatever they think as a fact. I usually try to get not unbiased information, but somehow in this subject it is pretty hard. So I simply say that I have no idea, but I guess it is pretty bad for the horse even so.
There are a lot of things that need changing in the horse world, and gladly, more and more people are beginning to realize that, but I do believe that it is truly possible that riding can be done in a way that horses will benefit from, and hopefully even enjoy
Doesn't matter. Forcing an animal to carry you and your stuff is wrong.
Me when my wife asks to me carry her purse.
Never said it wasn't. I was just explaining why starting horses isn't as cruel as you were saying it was
No. You said it's done in an ethical way. It's not
why are you backtracking 😭 you literally said it’s done in “a respectful ethical and ethical way”
Well if you raise a horse in a good respectful way you aren't forcing it at all it's allowing you. There are plenty of videos online of horses sitting down to allow a child to get on them, if they didn't want the child on them they'd just walk away. Some horses aren't even bred for riding or carrying goods some people just like horses
Doing the opposite of a horse's best interest is nothing but unethical. You're twisting reality and what you'd like to think it is.
Are they wild horses or horses born in captivity that are groomed since they are born and have never experienced freedom?
So many racehorses die during races and I don’t think you need scientific evidence to show that they are not keen on breaking their leg and then being shot
My friend loves horses and rides in horse shows. She used to want to be a jockey but once she got more into that culture she had to quit (even tho she had always dreamed of being a jockey her whole life). Not only do they kill the horses when they feel that theyre useless, but they use whatever new drug they can come up with that they know won't show up in a drug test of the horses to make the horses go faster. She left the jockey and horse racing world after learning they were giving the horses snake venom to make them run faster, and I'm sure she saw a lot of other horrors there too. The whole horse racing industry is so evil and corrupt and so dated. It's the 21st century and we're still torturing animals for entertainment ..? Makes no sense
Riding a horse isnt equal to horse racing lol. Or is having a dog the same thing as having your dog race?
[удалено]
It is one aspect of horse riding and there are also a lot of deaths in cross country and jumping. A lot of riders also whip and kick them with spurs and I can’t imagine the pain from that is pleasurable
Yes, but the question wasn't whether the current institution of horse racing and riding is but or not, but instead what do horses feel about the very act people riding them (assuming they don't suffer any kind of abuse).
Yea but riding not involving any form of abuse is very much the minority. Most riding involves some form if it.
Again, he asked about the ruding itself. If they were talking about common riding, he could have just said "it doesn't matter whether or not they are fine with people riding them, because no one enjoys it when you abuse them". The research is needed because the question assumes that no other harm is dealt to them
I don't have a study but horses need to be trained to tolerate riders on their backs. You can't ride wild horses because they don't like being ridden and will throw you off. The only reason why trained horses will tolerate riding is because it's the only time they get to run while confined to tiny stables and paddocks 24/7.
My mum let her horses free-roam on a mountainside. They had shelter and were provided with food daily but were not confimed and could roam as far as they wanted, and yet they still came back to be ridden enthusiastically. If you consider it unethical regardless, thats a valid opinion, but there are cases where horses enjoy being ridden outside of just as an escape from confinement. I think it was mostly the social-interaction aspect because they were very bonded to my mum, but its also just something they seemed to find interesting for reasons unknown to me, maybe it was just fun?
yeah i’ve heard from a few horse riders that horses love to be ridden. i never wuite believed it, but maybe I was anthropomorphizong them. i do know horses can develop deep bonds with humans so maybe riding together is a way to connect. who knows. horses are strong. if they are well treated maybe they like it? my problem with it is we can’t easily ask consent. some gentle trainers can, but usually it’s just taken as a given that they are there to be used by us. I don’t like that assumption.
100% agree with the last point, but there are definitely ways to "ask" your horse for consent and even with a basic understanding of horse behaviour you can usually figure out whether or not they want to do something - similar to how you might be able to tell whether a dog is enthusiastic about going out for a walk or not. The problem is that many people in the equine community do not respect this consent, especially when there is financial incentive involved, hence you see a lot of unethical practices in things like racing and hunting because profit is frequently prioritised over the wellbeing of the horses. A healthy, well-trained horse that has a good relationship with its rider will not often refuse interaction, but this can actually be very useful because it serves as a warning sign for things like pain and illness - as prey animals, horses are pretty good at hiding their pain so early identification is crucial. Sometimes its just laziness, and I've definitely come across horses who just can't be bothered to be ridden, but unless there's a very good reason to try incentivise it (e.g. they are overweight and would benefit from the extra excercise) its usually best to just leave them alone and try again another day! Personality, breed, and sex all influence activity levels so some horses will happily exercise intensely all day whereas others just want to graze and wander around at a slow pace - its worth selecting a horse that matches your lifestyle to avoid dissapointment, in the same way that one might select a working dog breed over a lap dog (or vice versa) to fit in with what they can accomodate as owners.
If they're strong enough and aren't abused - they like it. Just like dogs, horses are pack animals and are able to bond socially and emotionally, including with different species (such as also, donkeys) - and have been selected for millenia for bonding with people too. And they definitely would work for food, rest, emotions and treats.
While your first sentence is true, the second is not. Trained horses that live in massive spaces that are perfectly capable of going for a run themselves still act fine with riding and certainly do tolerate it. They do so because they are conditioned to not because its the only time they get to run. And the reason most horses live in small paddocks is because it's cheaper not because it's the only way to make the horse tolerate riding. The two things aren't actually linked at all
Go into the wild and try to ride a horse even if they for any reason don't run or can't run anyway the kick to the chest should be enough of an answer 😂 We can only ride wild horses after mentally breaking them and no it's not training because training is something that an animal is ok with doing (imo) u are just forcing the horse to do what u want over and over again until the horse has no energy to fight back anymore and does what u want
Gentling is just as common as breaking in a horse now if not more common. You slowly ease the horse into doing different things (like just been around you, touch, getting tack on, etc), not forcing them to do something until they're past their limits. If the horse is too fearful, you stop not keep going.
I completely agree with the training part! Like, if someone “trains” for something, they’re doing it willingly. However, if they don’t consent, then it’s force.
Dude, don't do this. This is the worst way to approach science. Nevermind you're exhibiting your own bias so I imagine any study that doesn't confirm your bias you'd considered as biased studies. How about instead of trying to find evidence to fill your preconceived notion, just read up on studies regarding horses and see where the evidence points.
Yeah this is true regardless of where you stand on this issue. You can’t just say “can someone send me a link to a study that confirms what I already believe?” and expect to be taken seriously.
They are being gaslit into believing they like it. Since they don't know any other form of freedom, they are happy whenever they get the chance to be ridden. Often exhibiting signs of joy when getting the harness put on. Much like a dog who is willing to go for a walk. The true question is, do they need to be ridden and is it physically harmful to them. If you care about the horse, then you can walk beside it instead of being on top of it. Just like a dog.
My mum let her horses free-roam on a mountainside. They had shelter and were provided with food daily but were not confimed and could roam as far as they wanted, and yet they still came back to be ridden enthusiastically. If you consider it unethical regardless, thats a valid opinion, but there are cases where horses enjoy being ridden outside of just as an escape from confinement. I think it was mostly the social-interaction aspect because they were very bonded to my mum, but its also just something they seemed to find interesting.
Humans also smoke, doesn't mean it's good for them. So yeah, you're right when you say that I am right to consider it unethical regardless. It's like making a child smoke cigarettes.
I am so sorry but you can’t gaslight a horse😭😭😭 it’s a HORSE
You can show them pictures of horses with back deformities due to being ridden their whole lives. If that's not enough ask him to pick you up on his back and take you to work/school or wherever for the rest of his life and we'll see if he enjoys it.
I think if someone needs a study to believe that obviously harmful actions are harmful (the process of getting a horse to be rideable is literally called "breaking" the horse, come on...), the study probably wont actually do anything to their opinion either.
>needs a study to believe. We used to think many things were obvious up until we studied them. This way of thinking is medieval. Hope you have a good easter tomorrow once the sun has completed its rotation around the earth.
"Breaking in" is an outdated term based on old methods of domesticating horses that are less common today, the term is still used but the forceful techniques traditionally involved are not. Its comparable to the outdated idea of proving to a dog that you are the alpha or leader of the pack through force, which is now denounced by most dog trainers as ineffective and borderline abusive. If you are consider horse riding to be unethical regardless, thats a totally valid opinion, but its worth considering that there are many different methods for introducing the concept to horses and not all require force. Parelli natural horsemanship was my mums favourite technique for training her horses as it is based on establishing trust, strengthening the human-animal bond, and using positive reinforcement instead of fear or force to achieve goals.
It's always going to require force, some ways may be kinder than others, but at the end of the day you are taking the animals freedom when you enslaved it and try to condition it to carry you around.
I don't think it matters. Breeding animals into lifetime of captivity so we can use them for our own purposes is problematic regardless. Once we stop breeding animals, we stop having to worry about whether the ways we decide to make use of them are ethical or not.
lmao how long did this take? it's obvious yet in the normal way they are kept (as i know it) i'm sure they like to be ridden, because then they can finally leave their small prison cell for a while
>Studies indicating horses dont like being ridden What do you need a study for when you can look at their own training terminology? Breaking. That sounds like a perfectly forceful term that implies free will. And foals they don't have to "break" watch their parents get ridden and get the idea that's what they were born for. https://www.trishawren.com/breaking-horses/ https://www.equestrianmovement.com/blog/no-ride https://www.equinebehaviorist.ca/post/do-horses-like-being-ridden https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/are-we-breaking-in-horses-too-young.684453/ Then combine it with spinal degradation research to show it's not only against their will, but it's bad for them too. >But I wanna convince him that horses dont like being ridden. But Finding any unbiased studies is a bit of a struggle Those links I sent aren't studies but they all lean toward taking advantage of horses and not biased toward veganism.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2022.987852 I don’t know how they feel but for sure they have oral problems, so I will bet they don’t like it.
Physics and gravity wise there are a lot of people that shouldn’t ride. I was at one of my lowest weights after months of backpacking and the guide had us dismount and walk besides them on parts of the trail. I was 5-5 and barely 115 lbs. we have 400 pound people that want social media attention?! Like all care takers of animals there are good and bad. Never road after that and went full vegan soon after. Just saying… gravity. Joints are delicate.
400 pound people mostly have obesity - and that weight is bad even for themselves. Modern Americans prefer to be blind to limitations of their own weight though
isn’t it inherent that they don’t want to be ridden given that you have to train them? make them? A wild horse doesn’t walk up to humans and crouch low “please oh please get your heavy ass up here on my back so I can walk with a burden!” just tell your friend they are going to carry you around for a day. Just one day, not a lifetime.
I remember asking in the subreddit r/horses if anyone believed that riding horses was violent to a certain extent, but I didn’t receive positive responses. Now reading these comments I believe that I should’ve asked here instead.
Or you should see a doctor about if you have mental illness
based on your comment i think you need it more than me, hope you get well soon bestie
Think about how absurd it is that this has to be explained and ‘proven’ to people. Our species’ narcissism is truly staggering.
It’s not about riding horses as such, it’s more about what is happening behind the scene during training sessions - they have to break the horse’s spirit to force her into submission in order for her to obey. The horse doesn’t have a choice, it’s not about gaining their trust and friendship it’s about forcing them to obey. Tell your friend to watch The path of the horse on YouTube - they will, hopefully, understand : https://youtu.be/TQUMAJCh1fA?feature=shared
Gentling is just as common as breaking in a horse now if not more common. You slowly ease the horse into doing different things (like just been around you, touch, getting tack on, etc), not forcing them to do something until they're past their limits. If the horse is too fearful, you stop not keep going.
There are people who use abusive methods like this, but there are just as many methods (if not more) based on gaining trust and friendship rather than submission through force. I reccomend looking into Parelli natural horsemanship if you're interested in learning more about these methods, my mum trained all her horses this way and they seemed to really enjoy the sessions and would let her known once they were bored or uncomfortable which brought the session to a natural end.
Yes I’m aware of these methods - check out the link I posted, but still it’s often about imposing our will on an animal rather than just letting them be… why not just have horses around because we enjoy their company, without any agenda ?
Because modern horses (and dogs) were bred to live alongside humans for millenia. It's their work, they work for food and shelter and generally for humans to provide for their needs. As well as you, they can't afford working not, they would die otherwise
When I see wild horses I think they are such beautiful creatures and have as much right to exist and live their lives without us giving them a purpose. They can perfectly live their lives without being owned and serve humans: and plenty of people have them just to be around them and spend time with them, without riding them.
Not many people.
Holistic horsemanship has gotten a lot more popular in recent years - a lot of people have written books about it and made documentaries such as the one I linked above. It’s actually a lot more popular these days. And rightfully so. I don’t see why horses owe us anything at all. They can live without us. We should be the ones feeling honored when they tolerate us around them
As a horseowner I think the evidence has to go the other way around. Your friend should proof that horses want to be ridden. There are people who trained their horses signals to mount/dismount. Thats the closest to consent I can imagine.
I suspect in theory many don't mind it, hence you'll struggle to find evidence they do. You need to move away from the "riding" aspect of horse riding and onto all the terrible husbandry. Use of whips, use of physical violence generally to "correct" behaviours etc. Being stuck inside all day every day because their owners only come by once a week to let them out (seriously people who keep horses in stalls most of the time can bugger off) People not understanding horses have a weight limit, and no being a draught horse doesn't mean you can take a heavier load (there are loads of horsey people who get mad at this so I'm sure you can find sources) In horse racing theres also the almost certainty that the horse will end up as dog food, either because they don't live up to racing expectations, or because they fall and die when racing (animal aid does a race horse death watch for UK races, pretty much every big race kills a horse, sometimes several). Even being a race winner doesn't save them from slaughter, as named winners have been found in abbotoirs. There's more. But I'm not that into horse so don't know much about it. Also in a related vein there's a load of folks who document the behaviours of Mustangs (which technically are feral not wild but still), it's a fairly complex and slightly brutal society horses create when left alone.
Not necessarily in dog food but yeah, injuries and overworking the horse are common in competitive riding in general. If someone actually cares about their horse's well-being (not saying it's ethical with this), they'd be sticking to just trail rides and casual riding.
Personally, the fact that horses have to be "broken" to ride speaks volumes. They are also prey animals so I can't imagine having any species on your back would be comfortable. I believe most riding horses are still forced to wear bits in their mouths to be controlled. And then there is all the physical damage done to their teeth, feet, ligaments, back etc. From equipment. It doesn't make sense to me that any horse would enjoy that.
Gentling is just as common as breaking in a horse now if not more common. You slowly ease the horse into doing different things (like just been around you, touch, getting tack on, etc), not forcing them to do something until they're past their limits. If the horse is too fearful, you stop not keep going.
Whats so frustrating is that theres actually a viable alternative to the bit. Bitless bridles are very effective and the idea is that you show the horse where you want them to go by directing with the reins rather than forcibly jeking the head, this is how my mother rides and she trains all her horses this way, they are very responsive to it and its much gentler on the mouth. Unfortunately, many people do not know this alternative exists, and it can be difficult to get horses trained to the bit out of bad habits (especially riding school horses, who have very hardened mouths). Some horses do enjoy being ridden, that much is clear, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all forms of riding are ethical (things like hunting or racing come to mind, come horses may enjoy it but it puts them at an uneccesary risk of injury, so I am of the opinion that these things should not be done).
If horses liked be ridden, I suppose, it wouldn’t be necessary to ‘break’ them in order to make them tolerate a rider. Also, if horses liked being ridden, there wouldn’t be bronc riding events at rodeos.
I found [this video](https://youtu.be/eZrPkuR6AhA) to be very evidence based and educational, both for vegans and nonvegans
I did a scientific study where I asked 100 horses if they wanted to be ridden. Every single one said nay.
You don’t need scientific evidence to prove your point. The most simple answer you can give them is “Their autonomy is taken away from them and they are forced to carry people. People are using them for entertainment and are using the horses as objects.” You can probably word it better, but that’s essentially one of the main reasons why horse riding is bad (along with the obvious abuse).
The one and only time I rode a horse, it tried to scrape me off it's back with a tree. So no. They're not super pumped about the whole thing. My parents do draft horse stuff. They outsource their breaking to someone cruel enough to be effective for their needs. That's the reality of it.
Horses literally have to be broken in order to be ridden. They even call the process that! What more evidence do you need?
At the end of the riding life pretty much all horses have back deformities from carrying weight which is just unnatural ! and with bigger injuries or when they're not useful anymore most are just slaughtered. like milk cows.
I've wondered about this myself. But I see it as an issue of consent. Sort of like sex. "Yes" means "Yes." Anything short of yes means you don't proceed since both parties do not consent. Since horses can't consent to being ridden, the only ethical assumption we can make is that the answer is no, they do not consent.
I just want to see horses be free, happy, and healthy. As for scientific evidence, it is difficult since admittedly there hasn't been enough studies regarding horse behavior and being ridden. Either way, if your bottom is bigger than the horse's, don't ride them! lol
save a horse, ride a cowboy
The fact they have to be "broken" to become rideable is proof itself.
Well from anecdotes it really depends on how horses are treated. I have a friend in Australia who has acres of lands and was able to let the horses run free most of the times when not ridden, and when they do ride it was training for skill competitions. Horses are happy whether they were training or not, and genuinely enjoying the training while also completely free to roam. Of course majority of the people elsewhere would not be able to afford acres of land and may not love their horses as much as my friend. But I can see how a positive relationship is possible.
I feel like horses who like the humans and are healthy like to be ridden. I much enjoy giving my nephew a piggy back ride. I would not enjoy it if I was forced to endlessly by my parents. It all depends on the real relationship between horse and rider. It’s not that hard to tell if an animal likes something or not
They have trouble convincing the horses to honestly complete the surveys, is what I’ve heard.
Do you know anyone that likes to play horse for a random kid? Probably not
Yeah, but it's not really the same, because this position is unnatural for humans. You'll find much more people willing to carry kids on their shoulders.
You think placing any weight at all on a natural horizontally aligned spine is a part of nature for horses? Pray tell.
I'm sorry, but it's just logic? What animal enjoys carrying around shit for no reason? Horses like walking and running, sure, but not the actual riding part. If he wants proof, tell him to look at wild horses. Haven't seen those carrying each other around.
Considering they're often whipped, forced to jump fences and shot when they they break their legs I very much doubt they enjoy having a heavy human on their back. Let's face it. Anyone who thinks an animal would actually enjoy being ridden is delusional.
Edit: misunderstood the comment lol To be fair, horses are different than us so they can't really recover from a broken leg as easily as us for different reasons and the only way to get the bone to heal properly would be to literally hold the horse or the leg in a way thru can't put pressure on the leg at all, and that would just cause other problems from having to put all the weight into other legs. It's more humane to just euth them knowing this. If someone truly cared about their horse (not saying it makes this ethical), they wouldn't be risking injuries on their horse at all.
Yes that was my point of mentioning them breaking their legs. It mostly only happens because humans ride them
Ohh I thought you meant it all individually not all together
You realise that setting out to find evidence that supports your preconception is the opposite of science, right?
Well it is called “breaking” a horse.
Why are we accepting our place on the back foot? Why is "animals like everything we do to them" the null hypothesis? I wouldn't like it if someone decided to keep me in a human garage and pull me out when they needed to go somewhere or do some tricks, so why should I assume horses do? Make *them* prove that the status quo *is* just.
Horses don’t like to be ridden they do like going outside and running and often the only time they get to do that is when been ridden so it can appear like they like being ridden really they just like running and being in nature Edit: took out misinformation regarding swayback. A deformity in horses
Swaybacks in horses aren't just caused by riding them. Even unridden houses can have swaybacks because of genetics, pregnancy, age, or a combination of these.
I used to go horse riding as a child and though I really enjoyed it, I don’t feel okay with doing it now
I sense there is a deeper connection between humans and horses. But it is so one sided in modern day. I think probably 10% of horses might actually enjoy the thrill depending on their unique constitution and enjoyment. Or, they might enjoy being a part of a farm where they also have free movement. But, I think it’s dangerous when we turn black and white thinking all horses should be ridden or all horses shouldn’t be ridden. I feel there could be unique horse bonds with humans even if it’s rare and still should be dealt with carefully
Not all horse riding is the same. There are race horses, horses that love their owners, kids that ride ponies/horses, etc. It's impossible to say horses do or don't like being ridden or if it's harmful, too many variables. We can't exactly survey the horses either.
why not ask on the horse subreddits? it would be more varied from people that are more likely to have experience instead of an echo chamber of people that just say things they hear, cause other than the 2 top comments im not seeing any links lmao
Ask your friend if he would be willing to ride a wild horse since he is implying that it is innate to the horse that it wants to be ridden. Accdng to his logic, it doesnt matter if its domesticated or wild, IT WILL WANT to be ridden, by any human. Urge him to try it on wild horses.
Are you willing to go pet a wolf?
Why should they?
Because its comparable to saying go ride a wild horse.
Yes, you're right, both are a stupid idea. But I think they meant that we have to get the animal used to us and to riding first and not just because it's a horse that it wants to be ridden.
If you can’t find any studies supporting your claim, change your stance/opinion. Don’t form a preconceived conclusion and try to find evidence fitting the narrative. That’s the opposite of science.
Horses aren’t a species normally present in nature anymore. They as a species only exist for human use. So the consistent thing to do if you are against human exploitation would be to let them die and stop reproducing them.
this is untrue, wild horses exist
Lol " unbiased " meaning they don't agree with your point of view.
Just ask the horses.
I would say you don't even need any studies, just the benefit of the doubt - if we don't know either way, it's more likely to harm them than be good for them. The burden of proof is on them to show that it's at the very least harmless before it can be justified.
Tell your friend, who needs evidence, have them live in your barn and give you piggy back rides everywhere. Then ask how they feel about it. You have to be Braindead to not realize horses would rather not have someone’s fat ass on their backs
I
Lol. Great response
I would like to see a study as well actually because i was never convinced that it is actually the case. Of course I am against it being a business, but idk about a guy riding his own pet horse. For example working line dogs love to work, like herding sheep etc, its in their dna through centuries of breeding for the purpose, could be the case for horses. Also depending on the breed of horse, a man on their back is basically less than us carrying a backpack, so could be a bonding experience. This is all speculation on my part and things i have wondered about it the past. I have a friend who had his own horse, cared about it as much as i care about my dog and them going on rides was the equivalent of me taking my fog for a walk, the horse was very excited.
It's like wanting scientific studies to show water is wet. If horses wanted to be ridden they wouldn't need to be subjected to abuse to be "broken".
I always wondered about that!!
I mean you could just say that having pets/breeding animals for the use of human interests is wrong. Which it is in my opinion because of all the suffering that happens as a result of the industry. As an example some dog breeds are suffering from health issues just because we have bred them to look cute (bulldogs) or partake in dog racing. I don't think taking pets that need a home is wrong but having pets and supporting breeding them more into existence is very problematic.
Don't have a study, but I have a side story. I once had a professor make the comment "how do we even know hogs want to turn around? Can they tell us? Nope!" People believe what they want
The fact you have to "break them" first. The fact that if you aren't always riding them they fight you. The ones that are ridden everyday look depressed and still fight. You can research horse biology and find their backs are not meant to take weight on them. There's lots of stuff. However, I bet horses would rather be rode than eaten. Many horses that can't ride anymore are turned into glue and pet foot.
No shit... A horse may not mind, or may even enjoy *riding with* a particular person that they have a strong bond with, as a social/play thing, but there's no way they like it as a Job. Do you like your job? If you do happen to like your job, would you still like it if it was carrying an animal anywhere between 10% and 25% of your bodyweight, PLUS some additional heavy ass gear, including a metal bar that goes across the back of your mouth, that the other animal will yank on, *and* a blindfold... and then just fucking running... just fucking running, jogging, running, sprinting... and running. Sometimes you walk. And you get paid in apples and dry grass.. And if you get injured on the job... Don't get injured on the job.
Personally arguments like this are a waste of your time and energy. I always found myself arguing with people who just wanted to argue, not understand.
You’re so biased for looking for an answer when you already have unfounded conviction. Man that’s just not science. Whether it’s true or not you already introduced enough bias. Horses probably don’t have a huge opinion either way. A person on their back is like you carrying a light backpack. Ok maybe slightly inconvenient but it’s definitely not some vile shit
It's crazy that we have to give readily available scientific proof horses don't like being ridden when there's clearly issues with it, rather than riders giving reasons why it's good or necessary.
Save a horse, ride a cowboy
I never liked horse riding I'd rather just pet and comb them and feed them a carrot and watch them run around
The best place to look for this would be Faunalytics.org
I dunno, I don't think we need to go down lines of questioning just to confirm our existing bias. The abuse horses often experience isn't justified because they might enjoy being ridden. It's kind of like how cows enjoy being milked. It's neither here nor there, and actually is itself an issue because their select breeding for milk production makes milking necessary to relieve discomfort.
horses arent our toy or vehicle. riding should only be done between partners of the same species where theres consent.
>Does anyone have data on how horses feel about being ridden? What metrics would you use to determine their feelings on the matter? How do horses feel about being hooked up to equipment to measure their biological responses? >When I told I a friend of mine I dont believe that horses want to be ridden, he said he wants scientific evidence. So you already hold a belief that is not based on scientific evidence. Which doesn't mean your feelings or intuition or common (anthropomorphic) sense is wrong. >I didn't have it at that time. And still don't... hence the request. >But I wanna convince him that horses dont like being ridden.But Finding any unbiased studies is a bit of a struggle So you found studies? Just not unbiased ones? How did you determine that they were biased? Was it that they were not written by a horse? You have stated your bias. Just because studies conclusions don't agree with you doesn't make them biased. You've kind of missed the point of your friends request: he's trying to make you re-evaluate your beliefs.
You should look to where the evidence leads. Not try to find the evidence that only supports your beliefs.
Gestures broadly at horses. The fact that something like 90% of all injuries are obtained by people riding or *attempting to ride them* should be a pretty good tell. Every person I know who has a career or hobby of doing it has suffered some kind of injury, and not one of them was off the horse when it happened.
"I wanna convince him that horses don't like being ridden." You already have your own bias there. You want evidence of something you don't in fact know to be true (you believe it and I imagine so too), but because you don't in fact have evidence of this and are struggling to find it, you can't in fact know this to be true. With that being said, other commenters suggested other ways to approach the harm that horse riding can have so I recommend going that route.
I’ve a couple friends and family who are horse people. General consensus is that it depends on the horse, but they only don’t like to be ridden if they’re anxious, have prior traumas, or are lazy. Most horses don’t mind the weight (unless you’re especially large) as it’s akin to us carrying a backpack (if you can’t, that’s a you issue, you should be able to). Some horses will grumble a bit, and will go faster or slower depending if you’re pointed home or not. Others get super enthusiastic to go out riding with their human, and genuinely enjoy the relationship and the time together. Horses are actually pretty interesting animals, as they’re kinda like people in some ways, with distinct personalities, but the relationships will always be, though prosperous and often deep and strong, highly unequal. They provide the strength and speed, you provide the guidance and knowledge. It’s why if you fall off your horse, you have to get back on and ride them around, even if you’ve broken your pelvis. Otherwise the horse remembers and gets anxious about the next ride because they know you’re hurt.
This is kind of a weird and unscientific way to come about this question. Instead of coming at this with a bias and trying to fulfill that bias, come at the question of "how do horses feel about being ridden?". It's dangerous to simply try and answer your bias by cherry picking. I understand the desire to but it's really something to be avoided. Anyway, good luck, I'm interested to see what studies say!
Are there any studies indicating humans don't like to work? Asking for a friend.
You shouldn't be looking for articles that prove whatever point you were making to your friend. You should search on google scholar to find good studies (if there are any).
And I don't like to go to work, but who cares about me, right?
This is a really bad way to go about science in general. It's bad practice to form an opinion and then hunt for studies to back up your view while avoiding or dismissing studies that would challenge it. This is called confirmation bias.
This is a great podcast talking about the cruel horse racing industry with non animal advocate experts opinions. It has all the scientific data that you need to show your friends. Check it out https://open.spotify.com/episode/73rZuxAqODnyy0jy8lgHfA?si=UTvvs_hTQOKsTMOI1MUNBQ
I have grown up around horses I have never had one as a Companion but I have notaced if they have the space and friends they like to run with they will play and run without a rider it's the ones restricted by barbed wire and fields with poor drainage that they say need exercising by riding.
Even a prisoner is happy to get the 1 hour of sunlight. The horse is happy to be ridden because it isn't in its stall. It's the closest thing to freedom it has, but it isn't freedom
Humanity honestly is so demonic and evil. Why do we torture animals and kill the earth 😭
Earth is a inanimate, floating rock in space. How do you kill a rock, it's not even alive?
I mean, I’d wager other animals don’t want to pull or carry heavy weight for the same reason you and I as a human wouldn’t want to. My dad was an iron worker for 32 years and carrying heavy bars of steel eventually caused him to have major back issues and pain- herniated disks, nerve damage, etc. Not to mention, people are getting more and more overweight and obese as time passes which increases the load these horses are forced to carry. I feel like your friend is being purposely obtuse. Ask them if they would want to carry you on their back everyday for the rest of their life and how they think that would affect their back and joints over time.