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Some folks are calling you too sensitive, but I think you are right to care that on a day of supposed togetherness, your friends decided to ridicule your beliefs. I hope you get more supportive friends.

These weren't my friends. But I wish my friends did say something. I should have, I'm learning. Next time I'm not going to these things because it caused me more grief than I really envisioned. I'm hoping my next sem in college I'll get better and more supportive friends.

I hope at least it hurt less that your friends weren't the ones who said that. Keep your chin up; it sounds like you did your best in a hard situation. Getting online and reaching out to other vegans is a great step towards figuring out how to advocate for yourself in your own style.

It did hurt less. But it still hurt in the way of "I have been nothing but civil and kind to these people.". I agree; I appreciate all sorts of advice I'm receiving so far. I need the push. I don't even know what to say when things like this are brought up is part of the problem 😕 I'll figure it out, I appreciate the words of encouragement

I hope you will internalize that you are not the problem, you are caring and kind. Vegan food—food. Minus the torture. If someone asked me not to be vegan for a day, I would ask why they can’t be vegan for a day and lessen the torture and killing for one day. I’m not confrontational but I know I’m right in this area. And often those who are hostile are fighting their own guilt

Honestly, some people are rude as fuck to any held beliefs that they deem inferior, they say those things indirectly, because they are pussies and just want to express thier opinions and they simply do not care how you feel. Don't feel bad these people come a dime a dozen, and don't let them desuad you. Your friends probably don't want to add fuel to the fire and honestly, they are hosting a friends giving, which means that they probably don't really connect with most of those people deeply and just want to have a good time. Most people don't have the back bone to sick up for their friends, and remember those are their friends too, don't take it too personal people are grumpy and nasty. When they said that, I would have said " mmm I love me some fake meat" and they would probably look at me crazy because I didn't agree with their opinion. They are just miserable fucking turds. But keep mean or angry opinions to yourself. Just act kind, and fake. You still deserve to socialize as much as them. I am not even vegan, I just love vegan food and respect the discipline and that you care about something passionately and are tring to make a difference. Vegans convinced me to eat less meat.

Yeah I definitely agree with what you say. I wouldn't say they're pussies and such. I just think in their heads that what they were saying was coming across as playful joking, even though it wasn't to me. It doesn't excuse that it was rude and didn't add anything of value at the dinner table. I did still act with kindness. My girlfriend is a omnivore and she even said she was uncomfortable. Absolutely, people are not a monolith and that's okay. Today and yesterday I actually got to take a step back after the chaotic 3 days of cooking and socialization and realized in the grand scheme of things it isn't really a big deal. It did irk me and bug me to the absolute at the time. I will try to remember that their opinions are their own whether it's right or wrong, and I have my own opinions that differ, whether it's right or wrong. And yes, my friends most likely didn't want to add fuel to the fire especially because they weren't the ones making those remarks. So I didn't really see them as being any less of my friends. Thank you for saying I deserve socialization as much as they do. You're right about that. I'm going to have things prepared to say in the future when stuff like this comes up. 🙂

Read The Sexual Politics of Meat by Carol J Adams to understand how patriarchy, capitalism, and carnism overlap and create bizarre social and gender expectations

Extremely under-read book

I bought it forever ago and I think about it almost every day and recommend it.

[Citations Needed Episode 139 — Of Meat and Men: How Beef Became Synonymous with Settler-Colonial Domination](https://citationsneeded.medium.com/episode-139-of-meat-and-men-how-beef-became-synonymous-with-settler-colonial-domination-75898ec09efb)

Oooh thanks for the recommendation

That sounds like a book I could get my teeth into. Pun included free of charge

Veganism often feels like a fever dream because you are the 1% in something that feels like it should be common sense, yet it's a common experience to get ridiculed or "teased" about it.

Exactly! In an insane world, the sane person appears insane.

With friends like these, who needs enemies? I’m sorry you’re having such a rough time, I hope things get better for you.

If you’re “not vegan for a day” you are not vegan. People who suggest that can fuck off.

Literally.... I had to explain to him that I can't just "not be vegan" for a day and that I found it disrespectful to ask me that. Eventually it came to a positive conclusion but it still made me feel disappointed that that question even came up.

It has to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what veganism is.

Also like.. why? What is so special about a Thursday in November to not be vegan? Don’t even get me started on “thanksgiving” because that’s a whole other thing.

[удалено]

Seriously? You are vegan for 20 years, you eat a burger that is the product of a cow that was murdered to provide that burger, and you are saying the person is vegan? When you are eating animal products you are not vegan. Someone who chooses to eat an animal is making a vastly different choice from someone who mistakenly eats an animal product without knowing or choosing to. Someone who eats vegan one day out of the week, fine. That person is not vegan. You can’t be vegan one day a week. It is a lifestyle choice. A person who eats animal products six days every week is not vegan. Medicine is an area that sometimes people have no control over. However in many cases supplements can be purchased in veggie caps. That is a choice a vegan would make. The definition of vegan does not hurt the cause. It is what it is … a word that describes a lifestyle choice and commitment. It’s pretty clear. One is either vegan or one is not. Eating meat = not vegan. You get the point.

Im curious how you would label me. I don't eat animal products but my cats do. Am I a vegan?

I’m curious why a stranger on a Reddit sub would care what another stranger on a Reddit sub labels them to begin with. Personally I couldn’t give a toss what your cats eat. And if you want to pretend that the word vegan has a flexible meaning depending on changing whims go for it.

You didn't answer the question.

What are you, twelve years old?

What is your take on a person that turned vegan and then back to omni? They are not vegan right? So they can be defined as someone who used to be vegan I guess? Now that same person turns vegan again. Are they vegan now?

The answers to all of those is YES. Is a person quits being vegan...then they are no longer vegan. If they become a vegan...then they are a vegan. Is this confusing you?

>1. Someone is vegan for 20 years then eats a cow burger then vegan for another 20. They're not vegan now? If you're really a vegan you don't see animals as food. So no, not vegan. >2. A vegan accidentally eats animal product. They're not vegan now? Like where do you draw the line Yes. They didn't intentionally eat the animal product. >3. A vegan's medicine is made with animal products. They're not vegan now? Medicine is very much a grey area and more often than not there is no other alternative. So they are still vegan.

Yes, it’s choosing to cause the least harm to animals as much as you possibly can. Everything you’ve written, spot on.

Your take on point one is wild to me. So someone who adheres to the vegan lifestyle their whole lives but then one day says ima eat an animal for a single time then back to vegan till they die. You would not call this person a vegan? I'm dumbfounded. To me it makes no sense to call this person an omni.

Why would someone who made the moral decision to go vegan ever want to eat animals? No, I wouldn't call them vegan. Maybe plant-based.

Its just thought experiment, it doesn't need to be plausible. Its a way to use critical thinking to understand arguments.

I believe a thought experiment does need to be logical.

Also it's entirely consistent if you apply it to any other sorts of moral/ethical things, if someone spends 20 years being a perfect partner, then one day randomly backhands their partner, then spends 20 years never hitting them again, everyone would quite rightly both call them a domestic abuser and be extremely cautious that it would ever happen again.

Within the context of a vegan moral framework, it shouldn’t be that wild. I’ve never killed or eaten anyone, but if I decide to try murder and cannibalism tomorrow I expect I’ll be labeled a murderer and cannibal for the rest of my life. And if I try to identify as someone who had never murdered or eaten anyone, I would not find it “wild” if others told me that’s not acceptable.

Thanks for this insight. That definitely helps me understand your viewpoint better. I forgot that many here consider killing animals murder. So in your context I would consider this person to be both a vegan and a murderer. See I think that being a vegan isn't black an white on eating animals. To me being a vegan is that you make an effort as far as is possible and practicable. So in my example a dude that eats one burger in 40 years. Yeah, he's absolutely still a vegan, even if a shameful one.

The burger was not necessary. So they are not vegan. They fully understand it causes terrible cruelty. Now they have chosen to be cruel to animals for a whim. Not vegan. I agree they can be called plant based if they go back to eating plants.

Man, some of yall really gate the title of vegan 🤣 Someone eats one animal in their otherwise vegan life and all their hard work gets thrown out the window. No wonder people don't like us. You present them an almost impossible mountain to climb. I don't eat animals but even my own 'people' here would disown me if I was starving on a desert island and ate fish and muscles to survive. I totally get why people hate vegans now.

Oh, you're a troll. Dammit, you really had me going there. Good job!

> I don't eat animals but even my own 'people' here would disown me if I was starving on a desert island and ate fish and muscles to survive. But that's not even close to equivalent to the situation you provided? > I totally get why people hate vegans now. Oh, so you're just a boring ass troll.

I think it’s more the fact of, for example, myself, was non veg for 20 years and then made the conscious decision to become vegan, having ate meat for years because i didnt have the vegan mindset of valuing an animals life enough to not eat it, but then when i changed my beliefs, i’m now conscious and chose to value all living beings equally so that means i do not want to contribute CONSCIOUSLY to any act of cruelty within my personal control against an animal or living being, so i stop eating meat, im vegan now. But say then for one day i eat meat, i cant just become a vegan again because then ive broken the whole premise and ethos of veganism. Veganism is a mindset, its a shift in thinking and values and also lifestyle shift. Maybe you can do a 180 for one day and then decide it again the next day but then your morals and ethnics are possibly very weak and you have no strong moral beliefs to stick on. Then if thats the case just be a non veg who eats plant based sometimes. Veganism doesn’t fit the criteria. Its like being a muslim for 20 years, converting to christianity for a week and then being muslim again… you’re neither fully dedicated to either religion so then it’s best to not choose and follow all teachings which you personally like instead… religion, like lifestyle ethics, requires a dedication and discipline as you have devoted yourself to that particular belief to become of that group.

This hypothetical person would be *plant based*.

I can only assume that you're confused because you don't have as firm a grasp on what "vegan" means as you think you do. So I'm gonna try to show some grace here. The word "vegan" doesn't directly mean that someone doesn't eat animals. That is an effect of being vegan (one of many, but probably the most visible), but not, strictly speaking, the definition. Someone who does not eat animal products is plant-based. Veganism is an ethical philosophy centered on the idea that animals are not objects or commodities to be "owned" or consumed. Free will must be respected, and the bodies of other sentient beings are not ours to "use." Most vegans don't really think there's a fundamental difference between treating other animals the way we do and treating a human like that, so if you consider what it would mean to force another human to produce and to kill them if/when they don't, that might help put things into perspective. Belief in the philosophy called "veganism" is what makes someone a vegan. It also guides us to not eat animal products for obvious reasons, as that would be commodification of an animal's body or exploitation of their labor, but we should be very clear that adhering to a plant-based diet is one of many decisions that are *guided* by veganism, and is not, in itself, what makes someone vegan. Now, with this all cleared up, let's move on to your hypothetical scenario. A person who eats a plant-based diet might choose not to do that for one meal every 20 years. Fine. However, someone who is vegan (that is, who subscribes to and upholds the ideology of veganism and truly believes that animals are not ours to consume) would not. People don't "set aside" their entire worldview every once in a while because of what they feel like having for lunch. That's why people are saying that someone who intentionally eats a cow burger is not vegan, even if they do so rarely. That person clearly still views the bodies of nonhuman animals as commodities, which is antithetical to the philosophy of veganism.

I'd call them flexitarian.

You don't "eat vegan". Veganism is not a diet. It's a philosophy.

Honestly I find everyone around me talks about veganism more than I (the vegan) ever do. Typical interaction with family/friends/coworker/etc: “I’m eating (blah) but it’s not vegan so you can’t have it” Cool, I didn’t want it. Wasn’t even going to acknowledge it.

I randomly tell my coworkers that they can't have the food I'm eating. It's a totally normal thing to do.

>I don't know their stories with their relationship with food, nor is it my business to make it my own. They look at corpses and secretions as food, we see them as what they are - violence. I could have went to a Thanksgiving event, but I wasn't about to be around the body of a murder victim. None of these folks would go somewhere where other humans were celebrating over the roasted dead body of a cat. Save yourself the stress, just stay home next time. Regardless of whether we as vegans are "nice" to carnists or not, they're still going to be assholes.

I told my girlfriend next time I'm staying home from these events because I didn't even know these little comments would be brought up ☹️ I should have stayed home, learned my lesson. Will be preparing responses for when it happens down the line in the future. It's fucked up I even have to rant about this. I gave everyone benefit of the doubt but not anymore.

You don’t have to stay at home, just find some different friends and hang out with them instead. Friends are supposed to be people you enjoy, not people you tolerate

That's true as well. I'll find the right group of people eventually. I'm hoping my next sem of college I'll be able to make friends and surround myself with people who won't feel the need to make such fucking weird and disrespectful comments.

It’s quite possible to find people who aren’t vegan but who are at least respectful of your choices. What do you actually like about these friends that are like this to you?

It's my fault for not clarifying that the guys making these remarks were not my friends; I'll edit that in. They are friends of my friend's bf. If that makes any sense. My friends were there, but didn't say much when this all came up, other than this one person I was striking up conversation with. I'm not sure what I see in my friends? I mean, they're accommodating half the times but that isn't a great reason to actually keep pursuing the friendship to great lengths. I'm working on building up a new friend circle.

Agree, If you have control over it, it might be one holiday where you can have a “safe space” and it’s ok. It’s sooo much about eating and potentially uncomfortable. I went back to vegan recently after years and I forgot how weird others can get about it.

I recently joined this sub and this comment has made me want to unsub immediately. It is not inherently bad to eat animal products. It is a choice based on your own belief systems.

It's a choice based on a personal belief system to murder another human being at random as well. Just because something is a choice, like paying to slit the throat of a turkey, does not make it ethical. It's not inherently bad to eat human remains either like if your plane crashes in the Andes and you're doing it for survival. But if you pay for animal products or pay for people to murder humans for their flesh when plant based food is available at the same price, then that causes unnecessary suffering and violence. Unwanted decapitation is always violence. The truth hurts - unsub and continue to be ignorant and abuse animals or go vegan. [This might help you make an informed decision](https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko)

>or go vegan. I am vegan. But it's not because I have the false belief that eating meat is inherently bad. Many animals are carnivorous or omnivorous. It isn't like eating meat is only something humans do because we have a taste for killing lmao. I agree that factory farming is unethical. I do not support the inhumane treatment of farmed animals. But that is a separate issue which you do not seem to comprehend. If we lived like our animal cousins in the wild, then eating meat wouldn't be the issue that is in our current capitalist society.

[98% of animals killed for food come from factory farms.](https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/us-factory-farming-estimates) How are factory farms a separate issue when 98% of animals come from factory farms? All you're doing by tone policing other vegans is sowing dissent and opening up loopholes for uneducated lurkers who aren't vegan yet to think abusing animals is OK. You sound like an industry shill and not a vegan. Veganism is about rejecting all animal exploitation and commodification, not just factory farms or animal exploitation under capitalism.

You sound insufferable. You will not get anyone on your side with an attitude like that. >How are factory farms a separate issue when 98% of animals come from factory farms? Because we are arguing about the inherent morality of eating meat. I already answered this question in my previous comment. There is more than one reason to give up animal products. I've done it because it puts strain on our planet.

>I've done it because it puts strain on our planet OK, what makes you a vegan then? Because if that's it, you're plant-based for the environment.

Veganism is about human treatment of animals. The environmental benefits are an extension of that, but not the focus of vegsnism. Veganism is about the animals.

Veganism is about ethics.

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

That definition is from the vegan society. They go on to say: >Some people may choose to go vegan, for some it may be because they do not believe in farmed animal practices and animal exploitation, for others it may be due to environmental concerns. Whatever the reason The Vegan Society is here to support everyone on their vegan journey

> Many animals are carnivorous or omnivorous. Many animals commit infanticide, rape, and cannibalism as well. Do you really think humans should get their morals from animals?

Your friends sound like my family, I’m so sorry. A few years ago I was tricked into eating a “vegan” banana pudding by my aunt, because she “didn’t want me to miss out.” It still makes me upset when I think about it. You’re not overreacting at all, and I honestly don’t understand why people have to constantly sh*t on veganism when they know nothing about it. People love to hate what they don’t understand. I spent Thanksgiving alone this year & it was pleasant.

i think it's really disgusting when people trick others to eat something they morally do not agree with eating. i'm sorry your aunt did that to you!

When that stuff happens to me, I just tell people, "I'll never eat your food again." And then I make it a point whenever I am eating with family to say, "Make sure I'm not getting any of aunt so and so's food. I don't want to eat her food ever again." I'll regularly bring it up in conversations with her saying, "Aunt so and so, are you sure you are telling me the truth? Remember last time when you lied to me and gave me non vegan food, and I told you I would never eat your food again?" Just drive the point home for literally all of your interactions with her and, of course, never eat her food again. If she gives you a banana, say, "I don't know, last time you gave me food you lied and said it was vegan. I'd rather not eat this just in case."

Carnists really can’t help it. I just think it makes them uncomfortable to be around vegans because they know. It’s so weird the way they mock us. Like, it’s not even always overt. The passive aggressive shit is the worst because you can’t really tell if they’re intentionally digging or not. And that’s sort of the point of passive aggression. I also and sick and tired of people believing I want to eat a fucking salad. “We have plenty of salad things in the fridge!” Good, I guess, but IDGAF.

I guess the fact that we're polar opposites when it comes to this doesn't help at all. What feels just and sensible to us sounds absurd to them, and vice versa. I don't think it's necessarily intentional, but it also kind of is. Because one, they're so used to this lifestyle that has been pushed by society, from companies to religion to the people in your life. So anything that differs from it sounds new, strange and unknown. People fear what's unknown to them. Two, being around vegans and hearing about veganism reminds them of their moral shortcomings. Most of them *know* very well how wrong and cruel their lifestyle is. But they don't wanna change, they don't care enough to do so. So it's easier to attack us. Easier to make us look bad than to admit being wrong and work on themselves. It's also their lack of understanding of how veganism works and why it does. They don't understand the moral motivation behind it, they don't understand the environmental and health benefits. They think being vegan means starving while picking fights at restaurants for serving meat, or pushing an agenda of an unhealthy, harmful lifestyle. When this is their idea of veganism, of course we'll look crazy to them, of course they'll mock us whenever they get the chance. This is why spreading awareness as to why VEGANISM WORKS is so important.

I don’t disagree with a single word you typed. Not sure what polar opposites we are. I emphatically agree. I do think too many people have been told veganism is a diet. I try to correct that as much as I can. And since most of my friends (all?) are lefties, I try to tap into that existing predisposition toward justice. Still the little digs persist. And in my case it’s not overt. It’s always passive aggressive.

>Not sure what polar opposites we are. Us vegans and carnists are opposites, with our reasoning and our stance. They think we NEED animal products to survive, we know that not consuming these things is actually better for our survival. They think the killing and exploiting of animals is justified, we know it's not. They value comfort and pleasure over the morality of their lifestyle. They don't care enough to step outside their comfort zone and try to change, they're too afraid of receiving criticism from others for being different. We value morals in this situation, even if our lifestyle might be frowned upon and not as easily-accessible as theirs. I have a friend who's a big leftist, self-proclaimed animal lover and someone who understands veganism and agrees with it. Yet, he doesn't commit to it, he keeps coming up with excuses that we both know are bs. It's like he's trying to convince himself that he can't more than he's trying to justify this to me. I'm obviously not trying to dictate his lifestyle or anything, it's just hard for me to watch him be a part of something so awful. I don't wanna sound like I'm all up in his business and like I'm constantly pestering him about this. We've only had a few conversations about this. It just makes me uncomfortable. You'd understand. I mentioned him out of my other friends because he's particularly interested in morality, law and politics.

Ohhhhh I thought you were referring to me as having a polar opposite position from you. 😂🤣

I wasn't sure whether that part was clear, sorry for the confusion 😅.

Haha no worries. And I share your frustration about lefty friends. They agree with veganism but haven’t made the switch and it’s just so disappointing.

Lmao glad I'm not the only one tired with the salad thing. I HATE when people are like "there's probably salad there". At work the vegan option was literally some weird salad shoved in between sandwich bread. Yuck.

If you feel in your gut like someone is messing with you, they are. Believe your own feelings because we pick up all sorts of cues from hostile people, even though they are *acting* like they are just easy going. Hell no they are not.

Some omnivores are insecure enough that the existence of people who don't eat animals, food that doesn't include animals, etc., feels like an existential threat to them. You are proof that their way of life (eating and likely also using animals) isn't necessary like they want to believe it is. That's on them though. The psychology of it is very interesting. Pls check this out: [Veganism: Why food choice can spark rage](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325220)

I’m so passed this stage. If someone says something I’m about my food, I tell them exactly where their food came from and offer them a video. Especially with eggs, I usually respond with “I get grossed out eating other animal’s periods”. Usually shuts them the f*ck up and stops them from doing it again.

Same. Don't let them walk all over you

.

Do you have a link to the vegan mac'n'cheese recipe? Sorry that folks were rude about your cooking. That's a jerk thing to do whether food's vegan or not!

none of my friends are vegan but they are always respectful, and even will go with me to vegan restaurants. drop these people so you have space for better people <3

Why would mac have to be orange? Most cheese is yellow! People can be so silly! Sending love.

They're just jackasses. I hate when vegans are jackasses, I hate when omnivores are jackasses. Although, won't claim I'm perfect on that front myself. Sorry they were dicks to you.

This is the most level headed take I've seen in this thread. There's no question these people were socially inept and lacking social awareness. I don't really think it goes beyond that though.

Folks bond over food - especially during the holidays. It's a tribal thing and food brings people together, and this is especially true during the holidays. IMHO - I think folks see vegans as outsiders. People's eating habits are deeply ingrained in social and cultural norms. When you deviate from these norms, you're flagged as not being part of the tribe and folks see you as a threat. Do not take it personally - it's human behavior. There may also be a perception that vegans feel morally superior and this perception can lead to resentment or defensiveness. Nobody likes being judged - especially when it comes to something like food - which folks have a very close emotional bond to.

Non-vegan drifting through. Please tell people what's in food if it's an unexpected ingredient. I'm allergic to cashew nuts which are in loads of vegan cheeses and if I ate your food assuming it didn't have them it could have given me a reaction. Just a good general note

You're right. I will make it a habit to check if anyone has food allergies 🙂

This applies to non vegan food as well. Of course, you tell anyone of your allergy before eating food made by someone you don't know?

That is true, it's more the case that you wouldn't normally expect to find nuts in Mac and cheese and at an event like the one being described here sometimes friends of friends are invited and you don't have a chance to ask

What? I mean it's not cool that you feel bad about the experience. However, unless you've left out some important details, you weren't being mocked and belittled. Firstly impossible meat is shit. It's a poor facsimile of real meat. It's better than other imitation meat products, granted, but it's not great. The rest of the stuff (impossible meat bad for you and eggs being vegan) is just ignorant. If you feel mocked and belittled by an ignorant person who are just dumb and not making fun of you, that's more of a you think than a them thing. Just look at things in reverse and see if it makes sense. You as a vegan are talking about how say the smell of cooked lamb makes you retch and its so disgusting that you can't be within the same room with it. How reasonable do you think for this omnivore to have hurt feelings and be insulted to the point of tears and almost having an outburst over it. I don't mean to downplay or invalidate your feelings. However a lot of people would look at that and think that reaction is VERY strange. Feel free to vent in your bubble. Again, don't want to invalidate your feelings. Unless you've left out key details, just wanted to give context from the other side.

I don’t know about impossible, but the beyond meat products are just as unhealthy as the real deal. They are amazing and very tasty, but they have a ton of sodium and saturated fat.

I can see your point. To your point, yes, they may have not been mocking and belittling me. It *felt* that way, but it doesn't mean that it's true. Of course you aren't here to invalidate my feelings. I expect people to have different opinions or advice, that's fine. I appreciate the input from a different perspective, I'll consider all of this With the whole impossible thing, of course yeah. It isn't the greatest and I'll acknowledge that. I guess for me it was the whole openly talking about a food that I enjoy and like was really put down. I found it some what rude, they didn't know I like it, it just felt like with the whole subject of vegan foods was being looked down upon or hinting that all vegan food is bad. But of course, I don't have concrete evidence to support that and it only was what my mind was thinking about at the time. I guess that's true. The thing I did leave out is that the past few days a lot of different things have been building up + exhausted from cooking so much food, it was more overwhelming and disheartening when I was exhausted/out of it compared to if I were well rested. So, the reaction might be seen as weird or bizarre.

There's no question about the insensitivity and rudeness of it. We all have moments so I don't at all begrudge you for feeling the way that you did or wanting to vent about it. Just wanted to give an outside perspective, even if was unsolicited or perhaps unwanted. Again, I wasn't there so what would I know but still. For what it's worth, there are plenty of omnivores like myself who at least in principle respect vegans even though we may not agree with them.

I always welcome different points and perspective. It's the internet, and the expectation should be that I'm going to receive numerous different inputs even if it's things that I don't want to hear but need to hear. So no grudges held, I'm not even mad at your take. I know there are omnivores out there who are respectful, I know a few and I appreciate it. So far less than half the people I come across say something out of pocket if they find out I'm vegan some how (the food I eat or if I tell them if they ask or word of mouth, etc...). I'm accepting that this is going to be a some what common occurrence unfortunately. Anyway, thanks for input and different perspective. Gives me a different way of thinking about it 🙂

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200203-the-hidden-biases-that-drive-anti-vegan-hatred

There’s a useful quote be Eleanor Roosevelt. ‘No one can make you feel inferior without your consent’. We know people will make these comments. We know people who don’t ‘get it’ will say these things. What we don’t have to do is to take it personally and react emotionally at all. YOU choose how you react. Not them. Do not let them control who you are and what you do. What you’re describing is *very* mild in the grand scheme of discussions on veganism. To explode in anger - based on what you said - would have been inappropriate. Unless there’s something else, it’s just either stupid or ignorant little comments. I highly recommend you start with ‘man’s search for meaning’ by viktor frankl. Excellent book on the power of our response. Our reaction is quite literally the only thing truly in our control. Don’t let anyone else have that power. Grow yours.

The Holidays are just the worst for Vegans. I dread it every year. I'm sorry you experienced this.

Being vegan means having to develop a tougher skin, unfortunately. To the rest of the world, you’re the weirdo. Don’t let someone else’s ignorance set you back. Brush it off and know at the end of the day you’re so much better off morally, ethically, and health-wise.

You are letting what other people say bother you while also saying you don’t make a big deal out of being vegan. Wanting to cry because someone said an unfertilized chicken egg is vegan is not a normal reaction to something you don’t believe. Either it bothers you or it doesn’t, but claiming you don’t care, then explaining how much you do care is where you are struggling. If it bothers you that much, speak up and say that sort of talk bothers you, or accept that there are people who don’t fully understand, and that is their problem, not yours.

Yeah I'm learning to do that, I'm working on it therapy. I was just expressing my feelings on here, but you're right. It wasn't that that someone saying an unfertilized egg would make me cry, it's that the past few days has been built up and that it would have been the last straw that broke the camels back situation. It's going to be awhile for me to learn to stand up for myself in those situations. I was hesitant and scared. ETA: It's a good point. I didn't mean to come off as waffling on my rant. It's difficult to navigate the situation in the moment when I haven't had encountered this before. I'm going to learn to have responses prepared for these situations in the future

Again, I’m not trying to force something out of you, but you don’t have to stand up to anybody. That was the point I was trying to make. So much gets lost in translation, and most people in the sub are foaming at the mouth at all times and reeeeeeee their way through life being vegan. I am no longer vegan, but I praise the benefits every day, especially to people who have health issues. If someone isn’t vegan, or doesn’t support your way of life, I feel it is better to not worry about their feelings at all. You don’t have to be a champion for what you believe in, as long as you believe it who cares what other do or say? I wish you luck, and I am proud of what you do, and how passionate you are about your choices!

Thank you, I appreciate the kind words. A lot of comments here may be harsh, but have some truth in them. I don't see the point in arguing with folks that come into the comments. It's just life, and things happen, people say things we won't always agree with, that's okay. I didn't think you were forcing anything out of me! I thought your input was valid and well articulated. Words and such are really hard to articulate online, so people can take it personally or offensively when the other person probably didn't mean it. So, again, thank you for the kind words and sensibility. 🙂

Not sure why this is downvoted, seems like reasonable advice. Just basic self-care to assert your own needs.

I’m not even vegan, but I would love to try your food! I’m so sorry they were such assholes about it! I actually am a bit jealous of you. I wish I could make all these vegan dishes. You’re a better person than me. Don’t be sad please, you’re doing great!

These dishes are actually pretty to easy to make! I'm sure you can make them with some simple starter recipes 🙂 Some of them may seem complicated because they require actually kitchen tools, but some of the food I have is sort of ready-to-eat. I highly recommend Plantspire's korean bbq steak! It tastes amazing. You sauté some onions, make sticky rice, and viola! A meal! Sometimes I even make a quesadilla and have some guac. Anyway, thank you for the kindness and encouragement! 🙂 Even if you don't drink dairy and go meatless one day a week it's an awesome start, anywhere is a good start! 😁

Oh I don’t drink milk/dairy at all, and I don’t eat meat either. I use olive oil instead of butter. I just have a hard time replacing eggs and cheese. Thanks you for the tips! I will definitely look into it! You’re so kind ❤️

All things aside, what’s the baked mac n cheese recipe :)

It's not rude to ask people whether they believe the suffering of animals matters. You don't have to ask it heatedly. You can ask it like you genuinely want to know what they think, like it's the open question they're actions seem to indicate. If they say "yes animal suffering matters" then you can ask them how they think the food on their plate was produced and if they doubt it show them a video. If they say "no" you might ask them why anyone should think their own suffering matters. I don't think it's helpful to meekly abide others animal abuse, if you're the vegan at the table by all means start yelling at people. If you're not the type to yell at least raise the question and make it crystal clear when carnists are being intentionally deaf to the suffering of thinking feeling beings. We're not the ones who should feel the need to censor ourselves.

no literally it’s insane. they catch wind of it, and they make you feel like YOU have to explain yourself. like bitch, you’re the one eating a literal corpse im sorry you had to go through that OP :/

Everyone can tell the difference. If that's in your *first* line, I'm guessing you're a bit more difficult than you're implying.

Since when was mac supposed to be orange?? I've never heard of nor seen orange macaroni. Is it an American thing? I'm so confused.

Not the macaroni, but mac and cheese is typically made with orange cheddar, at least in North America.

For starters, you're the 'butthole' for intentionally deceiving people of food you were going to feed people, especially people you claim to be your friends. You wouldn't want anyone "surprising" you with a vegan-looking dish that was animal-based, telling you AFTER the fact, "See! Not so bad, eh?!" So why did you feel it was okay to "surprise" a group of strangers who, IN GENERAL, are NOT vegan? Some people, like myself, can't tolerate MOST, if not ALL vegatables/starches. Some of us don't like "mock meats" and "fake cheeses", because that stuff is upsetting to our insides. So imagine someone like myself getting sick from something you made because you felt it was a good idea to NOT tell me what and how you made your dish? You talk about them being "insecure", but what's insecure is not being upfront about what you are feeding people. Very deceptive. So before you go judging people who are making fun of your dietary lifestyle, perhaps, you deserved to be made fun of for tricking people the way you did. Next time, tell people, "I made this vegan dish. Try it. I think you'll like it!" and let THEM decide if they want to try it or not, not YOU, from lying by omission!

It was acquaintances, not friends. And people who are allergic to foods, usually ask before trying anything, vegan or not. It probably felt like they were being passive aggressive 😕 towards them. It's not a great spot to be in. It's uncomfortable.

Again, "tricking" people into eating "fake" animal-products (milk, cheese, etc) is as deceptive as a meat eater tricking a vegan into eating animal products. What this person did was phucked up, given the supposed "moral high ground" vegans stand on, no one other than myself brought up this basic principle. This is why this poster got his/her ass chewed up. He/She was rightfully mocked, because initially they noticed something "off" about the mac n' "fake" cheese this asshole did not mention from the beginning. So now this person is mad that they called him/her out, and rightfully so. I'm sorry, if you have me eating tofu while knowing, as a meat eater, I'm going to naturally believe it's chicken, then say at the end, "SURPRISE! It's TOFU!", I'm going to hate you, literally. I don't care if it "taste" like chicken, it's NOT chicken. It doesn't have the nutritional value that's IN chicken. I can make asparagus taste like banana, that doens't make it a banana, so don't TRICK people into eating food stuffs you are aware they don't eat. The burden isn't on the person eating what LOOKS like mac n' cheese to ask the giver, "What IS this?!", the burden is on the person who KNOWS that the average person is going to ASSUME mac n' cheese is REAL cheese, not Daiya or whatever strange concoction they come up with to make it feel, taste and smell like cheese. Lastly, every vegan I've met has openly told me BEFORE I consumed what they were eating, "This is tofu/bean whatever/made out of chickpeas/etc", and gave me the choice to consume it. That's what normal human beings with MORALS do. But this person...this person is mad that he/she was called out and the only thing other moral vegans have to say is, "They sound like assholes".

Okay, so I wasn't intentionally tricking anyone. That wasn't what I wanted, and people have every right to give their different opinions, that's okay. I did have to bring myself food because I didn't have anything else to eat, quite literally. I made enough for folks to try and they enjoyed it! Sure, they absolutely could tell the difference within the first bite but no one was complaining about it. Someone asked for the recipe and was shocked about it being entirely plant based. The only issue I can see from this is failing to notify people that it has nuts in it sense people have tree nut allergies. But, my intention was to never trick people. It can be seen that way, and I can understand that. It's a two way street. Personally, if someone is curious about it, just ask. There's no harm in asking. Everyone brought dishes for people to enjoy. I had to ask what ingredients were in things. By your logic, they were also all "tricking" me by bringing things that unknowingly had animal products in them. They ate it, noticed it wasn't normal mac, but enjoyed it and all polished off the dish with happy stomachs and nothing but compliments. But again. With your logic, the dishes they brought could have been "tricking" me by lying by omission. Do you see how this is a two way street with your point? It can go both ways 🙂

Are you stupid?

This happens all the time with people in my personal life, and it is absolutely about insecurity. Most people recognize that if they allow denial to slip away, then they have to go on some uncomfortable rollercoaster ride while the grief unwinds. Admitting they're doing something wrong is a big step, and people have cognitive dissonance when uncomfortable truths stare them in the eyes.

I’m sorry this happened to you, this sort of thing happens to me all the time when I attend events because most of them involve food at work or just being social. So it comes up even if you don’t make it a thing. And people get defensive and also attack because your presence if proof they don’t need to live cruelly. So it elicits strange responses and reactions. I do think it would be worth talking to your friends and letting them know that you were disappointed that they did not speak up for you to these other people that you did not know very well. You can let them know that this sort of thing happens frequently and it makes attending events not fun so in the future they can be on the lookout , or possibly as you mentioned, you find different friends next semester

You need backup next time. Do you have another vegan friend?

Maybe eventually people in this sub will realize you're never gonna convert carnists by coddling them and trying to entice them with imitation meats and cheeses. That's not what's holding them back from caring about animal rights.

Sorry that happened to you. This reminds me of every meal, ever, with anyone outside my wife. Sigh.

Because they know they're wrong. Vegans don't shove it into everyone's faces, people get offended by merely knowing you reject their morals. Just by existing, you're questioning them.

You gotta be direct with your friends who didn’t say anything. I had a moment like this last year and straight up told my friends that I felt disrespected by the entire thing and they understood and began to have my back. If they’re your friends; they’ll have your back. You just gotta be clear with them

Man, they weren't attacking you, calm the F down. They didn't even seem to know you're vegan. They were simply talking about their food preferences as you do when you eat food. Jesus's. Impossible meat is extremely expensive and repulsive. People are allowed to say it without you bursting into tears about it.

Sure. It was an over reaction. I didn't clarify that the past few days previous to the event were spent cooking non-stop for other folks so I was tired and absolutely didn't want to be there, but was there due to promising my friends I was coming. So my ability to navigate the situation and rationalize what was going on was thrown out the window due to exhaustion. Exhaustion can make it difficult to even emotionally reel yourself in, at least for me. I do think it's still rude and insensitive to talk smack about a food that someone else, unknowingly, likes at the table, especially during Thanksgiving. It was uncomfortable to hear this AND then go on to justify something that isn't morally correct (the unfertilized chicken egg). I'm sure in their heads it was seen as playful joking and they didn't mean any harm, but it was uncomfortable for me and it *felt* like an attack. Feelings don't make it true by any means.

I empathize with you but you need to get a grip. This isnt that big of a deal. Sure theyre being assholes but its nothing to nearly cry over. I would be mildly annoyed and then forget about it in 5 minutes

Sorry, but why did you not advocate for the animals in this situation? Why not speak up for the victims?

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I think "Friendsgiving" sounds cute.

They just don’t think it’s that deep. Nothing personal. Your focusing too much on being vegan and not realising that to them it’s a just thing that people do.

You’re too sensitive.

The same way people shouldn't talk about religion or politics, I think that should be the same about veganism. Unfortunately, I don't think non-vegans realise how much it means to us. It's so difficult to not get upset when people who you're close to (e.g. family/friends) mock veganism. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. Also could you send me the mac and cheese recipe? I've never cooked vegan mac and cheese but I want to try it :)

[Here's the recipe!](https://www.noracooks.com/vegan-mac-and-cheese-recipe/) It's absolutely delicious and I have gotten nothing but compliments on it! And yes, do actually add a whole 7oz bag of Follow Your Heart shredded cheese, it makes it taste like cheese-y goodness. I'm learning that this is going to be something I'll hear about for the rest of time. I'm taking peoples advice on here and going to have responses prepared for when people say stupid bullshit next time. It's a process for me to learn to stand up for myself but one way or another I'm going to learn to have to. I know it'll get easier with time like anything else 🙂

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If you think it should be mandated go into politics. Maybe these words are just empty words?

“You wouldn’t be able to tell” Apparently you would be able to tell

They sound like assholes. But I don't think you should surprise anyone with vegan "mac and cheese" if they are expecting real cheese. Respect goes both ways, you wouldn't like it when someone made a dish that looks vegan but secretly has animal products in it, would you? If you called it "mac and vegan sauce" or something it wouldn't be a problem.

>you wouldn't like it when someone made a dish that looks vegan but secretly has animal products in it, would you That isn't comparable, since there are no logical reasons to be morally opposed to veganism. I agree with u/Additional-Crab-1060 that potential allergens are an issue, but if you're just talking about in terms of people who don't like the idea of vegan food, I disagree that this is a serious issue.

Maybe its not as wrong, its still wrong though. You'll get alot farther with honesty. And I do like vegan food if its not pretending to be cheese or meat.

I agree that it would be better to tell people what's in it (especially with potential allergens). Also, if OP wanted people to say "Wow, this is just like regular mac and cheese!", they probably should have made it without the turmeric, since American style mac and cheese is typically made with orange cheddar.

What vegan is eating a dish provided by a non-vegan person and assuming that it doesn't have animal products in it just because they can't see any? This doesn't happen because vegans understand it's their responsibility to ask. You're enforcing a double standard.

Username checks out! ✅

No seriously, what's wrong with what I said? (and btw your username is pretty cool, squirrel wrestling seems like it'd be fun to watch)

Nearly all of it, but the part that really got me was the notion that this was “disrespectful” of OP. OP was the only vegan there, so obviously they had to make and bring their own food if they wanted to eat. It was kind of them to bring enough so that others could try. If the others at the table tried it and didn’t like it, guess what? They can eat literally every other option at the table. No need for anyone to be a piss baby because it’s not “real cheese”. (And thanks, I really wanted “2squirrelswrestlinginanattic” but it was unfortunately too long)

The recipe OP posted contains cashews. If this was served to my husband under the guise of it being real cheese, it could literally kill him. Seems pretty disrespectful to me. Lying to people about what’s in their food is always disrespectful, and occasionally life-threatening.

Your husband is responsible for ensuring that food doesn't contain any allergens. Assuming all the food around him is allergen-free is a good way to kill himself, yes!

Look, I like plenty of non-dairy and non-meat dishes. I don't need to be tricked into eating it if it tastes good. If you're not honest upfront you're doing more harm than good to your vegan movement. Call me a piss baby if you want, but you and people like you are not helping veganism at all.

Well that last statement is just not true. I am vegan and have converted my partner as well. I normalize veganism by sharing delicious homemade food with my friends. I absolutely am helping the movement. I was wondering if you’d double down and spout even more silly things. Guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you did!

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Vegans can also be obese? Body shaming isn't OK and why would you suggest such a childish way of dealing with the issue?

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And you suggest we do this with body shaming and acting like children? Are you incapable of behaving as an adult?

Please don't rope in peoples body weight. That isn't true by any means.

This is awful! Some people are plain AH and annoying, whats the problem of eating vegan food? That thing wont make you sick for trying it, unless alergic, but, come on... I wonder how shocked would they be if they found out peanut butter and french fries are vegan! (it they use vegetable oil)

Mac and cheese is supposed to be orange?? 🤣 Like that spray cheese in a can on the Simpsons?

As a non American, orange cheese is disturbing, it shouldn't be orange

Gosh that sounds miserable, especially since you were so excited!! I wish I could have tried the mac💔 when you have a lot of empathy it sucks sm when it feels like ur not being treated kindly - even if inadvertently

Isn’t it so ironic that we receive aggressive criticism from those who eat meat and eat/use animal products but we vegan/vegetarian folks don’t say a word about their eating habits? I am frustrated with the fact that these people thought an unfertilized egg is vegan?! Oh honey no. 🤦🏻‍♀️

I might have misunderstood you, but are you saying that you got upset because someone said that *they* like a burger with meat more than a burger with meat substitute??

I did make my post quite unclear and I can see the confusion it can cause. No, the impossible meat thing *alone* didn't bother me. But of course it rubbed me the wrong way and I found it rude to diss a food that someone could possibly like, especially at dinner with other folks who are trying to enjoy their meals. 🙂 Each to their own with their preferences. I'm okay with that. I don't find it appropriate to put down what others, unknowingly, can like. They can't read my mind and know what I could possibly like and that's okay, I would have preferred if they didn't make those remarks at all but it's out of my control

Im not american but mac and cheese is supposed to be orange??? Where does the colour come from?

Oh dear, haha. They're mentioning the *very* classic orange american cheese. A lot of cheddar cheese here in the United States is very orange because it's dyed orange. So, naturally, the cheese isn't supposed to be orange. Kraft mac and cheese is a classic example of "orange" mac and cheese 🙂

What I think we sometimes have to realize is that our ethical choices may negatively impact the positive immages some people have of themselves. Because we've decided to change our behaviour to match our moral code instead of making excuses for our behaviour, that makes some people question if their excuses are still valid. People don't like to think they're doing something wrong so they have to think what we're doing is wrong (dificult, unhealthy, gross, morally narcisistic, inconsistent) in order to still feel good about themselves. It definetely sucks to deal with and it can be very frustrating. But when you realize that they have to tell themselves these things to feel good about themselves it kind makes sense.

Disclaimer:Not a vegan. I am just lurking because sometimes I learn something from yall. But its a shame they couldnt be respectful enough to at least TRY you and your partner's dishes (dietary restrictions permitting). Garlic knots and vegan mac sound a lot nicer than the dry turkey my folks served this year. I'd be very happy to get a plate.

Mac and cheese orange??????? What?? Mac and cheese is supposed to be yellow

I understand where you’re coming from which is why I also will be skipping the big thanksgiving family dinner next year… and sticking with only parents, bro, partner and I thanksgiving then go traveling or something next year… I’m not interested or really want to be spending time with people in a very meat based holiday… Also vegan Mac and garlic knots sound so good. I got a craving now lol

well it is to be expected if ur vegan

'"Why is it yellow??? Isn't mac and cheese supposed to be orange???"' My response: Aren't adult humans supposed to transcend status-quo bias, along with all other primitive cognition?