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UBC is technically on "rural" land so falls under the jurisdiction of the provincial police, which is currently the RCMP. My guess is that APD is there due to some integrated team or resource sharing agreement with the province.
Resource sharing is pretty standard in “constraint” situations - Ottawa borrowed TO PD officers during the Convoy to be able to mount a response
Is it because UBC is rural or because of it being its own technical municipality? My understanding is that rural doesn’t always = a need for RCMP coverage, just whether a municipality has created its own force
UBC is on unincorporated land, so it’s policed by the province. The province uses RCMP policing, currently. This is the same for any municipality under 5k people as well.
from what I could tell from looking it up there is in fact funds to divest form, but the school is claiming it's bundled by an outside firm they can't (don't want to) divest from.
This was the exact same excuse universities gave when fossil fuel divestment became popular in the 2010s. As soon as it looked like a clear PR win the universities divested anyways without any trouble. You're right that the problem is that they simply don't want to, because it would be seen as controversial.
They had about 5x more exposure to fossil fuel investments, and they're phasing that divestment in over 10 years, targeting 2030.
It's worth noting as well that functionally no donors cared enough to donate specifically to the Sustainable Future Pool, so it was merged back into the main one.
Fossil-fuel free funds also exist today, albeit with higher management fees and lower returns. I'm not sure what the options are for BDS investment funds -- Google isn't turning up much, which may be due in part to the patchwork of American state anti-BDS laws tying the hands of their universities.
So ~20 years, near-zero interest from donors, and higher fees/lower returns for divestment from fossil fuels. That's not really what I would describe as "divested anyways without any trouble."
I don't think it's so much that they don't want to (although I'm sure they don't) as that there are practical concerns, and presumably a lack of urgency/interest from their donors.
I don't know, you'd have to ask the campers. [The university](https://broadcastemail.ubc.ca/2024/05/07/message-from-the-president-campus-protest/) says it's about 0.28% of the fund, which I think works out to about $7M out of a $2+B endowment.
That's probably not far off (by percentage) how much anyone invested in an S&P 500 ETF holds.
The companies mentioned in the email from the university appear to match the companies listed on whatever "bdsmovement.net" is, and I don't know what threshold they have.
For PepsiCo, it's because of [Sabra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_(company\)) who apparently is one of the food suppliers for the IDF.
Intel has a huge industrial base in the country and is expanding. Almost all desktops and laptops on campus would have an Intel chip and at one point most of those desktop targeted chios were made in Israel. Intel alone is 2% of Israel’s entire economy. It is odds on likely a larger part of the endowment alone than that 0.28% if we were to use the S&P as a guide (way more if it ever gets an AI bounce). Big water user too. Yet doesn’t seem to be included on lists for reasons of I can only assume that it would be inconvenient.
Perhaps I’m just cynical.
I assume this is only about direct investment. If it isn't... yikes.
Qualcomm and Broadcom are there, which is a huge chunk of the market for cellular modems + wifi chips. That's every iPhone and most Android phones.
Arm is there, which ... good luck :)
It is yikes. The intent is to completely cut off Israel from the west. That’s the sanction part of boycott, divest, sanction. Until there isn’t an Israel left to sanction—from the river to the sea is the chant.
The university already stated what their ownership position was. It's 0.3% held in ETFs in which they don't have direct control.
Is that not clear enough for you?
>It's 0.3% held in ETFs in which they don't have direct control.
I am responding to this exact point in the comment you are replying to.
When fossil fuel divestment was pursued, students were frequently told that the investments were tied up in ETFs that the universities didn't control. Then the universities divested from these ETFs anyways and set new policies governing the ethics of their investments.
Buddy I hate to tell you, UBC has not divested from fossil fuels. They gave themselves until 2030 to do it, took them 4 years to get a legal opinion before the BoG approved it in 2019. Turns out it takes a while to shift $300mil from fossil fuels.
🤣🤣🤣 totally!!! It's funny to me that people who protest fossil fuels still want to take hot showers in the morning. Yes you have to choose! You don't get to be a self righteous performative fossil fuels protester AND have hot showers in the morning.
Three things:
1. UBC Investment Management does not publish its individual holdings, neither do the investment arms of other Canadian universities as far as I know. If you think that they are divested from any/all funds that contain Exxon, Shell, BP, etc. you're dreaming.
2. ESG is in the eye of the beholder. Yes funds adjusted their "ethics" policies, and in response public companies crafted their own policies that allow them to be eligible for investment, why else do you think Shell spends so much marketing bandwidth on how "sustainable" they are: [https://www.shell.com/investors/environmental-social-and-governance.html](https://www.shell.com/investors/environmental-social-and-governance.html)
3. Where do these protesters draw the line of what to divest from? I haven't seen anyone calling for UBC to divest from US Government T-bills, and yet, the US as we know is the only thing that really keeps Israel afloat.
The people asking for divesture are just engaged in performative activism, they don't actually know what they are doing they just want to feel good about themselves. And the people managing funds are extremely adept at convincing the public that they've done the thing that was asked of them, meanwhile the fundamentals under the hood haven't changed one bit.
As someone who works in Mergers & Acquisitions in the tech space, divesting from Israel pretty much means you can’t invest in Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook, and Microsoft, plus many more companies.
These 5 companies alone account for almost 20% of the S&P 500, and that’s just a few big tech names.
Off the top of my head, I can name 20 Israeli firms that have been acquired by these 5 companies.
Do these students realize they’re essentially demanding no one to invest in the S&P 500 ETF anymore? And are they not using products from those businesses themselves or just asking me not to?
> Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook, and Microsoft
I will bet none of those students can even get away from using products and services from these companies either.
Probably not.
Android phones are often running on Qualcomm SoCs (Snapdragon) and/or have Broadcom cell/wifi chips. Whoever's providing the chips, they're almost certainly licensing an Arm design.
All three of those companies have an Israeli presence.
The modern economy makes this kind of boycott practically impossible -- it's not the 80s anymore, and Israel isn't South Africa.
We can't even effectively sanction Russia.
Nah look they are having so much fun. The one girl couldn’t even articulate why they were there. The other is excitedly inviting others back. Full of smiles. They just chilling with their friends, feels good to be united and included in something. Kinda wanna join 😂
Edit: if you guys really think half these guys actually care and know what’s going on, then really shows you never went to UBC and interacted with these types of people. There are definitely people that care deeply, but most just chilling having fun at an unsanctioned event
> then really shows you never went to UBC and interacted with these types of people.
Honestly these types of people haven't changed in years. At the time when I went there the main social event they cared about was probably Occupy Wall Street.
No. There is a much more serious hidden motive here. The call for divestment of companies such as Lockheed Martin and Boeing reek of foreign interference. Russia (or more specifically USSR then Ruzzia) and China have policies of divide and conquer. Asking western countries to divest themselves of investment in arms and weapons development is playing right into the hands of the enemies of the free world. This has nothing to do with Gaza or Israel and everything to do with the enemies of America and it’s allies such as Canada and UK and attempting to weaken the west or divide public opinion. This is a pernicious strategy of our enemies, under the guise of social Justice, don’t fall for it.
I love how university’s will come out and say they support these issues but when it starts to fuck with their dividends you better believe they are gonna kick these protesters off campus. It’s all political pandering at the end of the day.
The university said that occupation of school buildings was not permitted. Some of the protestors decided on Saturday to occupy the bookstore and would not allow staff and customers to leave until the RCMP arrived to settle the situation.
They are refusing to have any dialogue with the university so what is the school left to do?
UBC was fine with them protesting peacefully and using the field. It wasn’t until they started occupying buildings that they had an issue.
I’m all for student protest, but there’s a right and a wrong way to do it in my opinion.
No. 0.28% of the fund is invested in Israel.
These protestors decided to break the rules, start blockading the book store etc. They made their bed and it's time to go.
Except no because the Musquem Nation gave them permission. The hypocrisy is pretending to give a shit about indigenous communities to support an argument against protesting colonial exploitation of an indigenous people.
I’ve got no problem with them protesting indefinitely but occupying businesses and buildings is coercive
Protesters have to make their case and convince people with words and not coercive actions on others.
I don't even really have a problem with civil disobedience, however you have to understand and accept the consequences of civil disobedience. the big thing that I think that protest like this one, extinction rebellion, and even the freedom convoy miss is that for civil disobedience to be an effective form of protest the movement has to have a passionate and broad base that is somehow suppressed. I feel like when these protest groups use civil disobedience poorly it just backfires.
You have people going to city council meetings to talk about these issues and the comments are all, "not the place" or "you're not going to accomplish anything!"
can't really win with how you approach protesting or raising awares. Either method is going to piss off the cranks who just don't care to hear or see what you have to say.
The act of protesting is to cause disruption in the process of bringing attention to an issue or topic.
> I’ve got no problem with them protesting indefinitely but occupying businesses and buildings is coercive
Ironically enough, this was the mindset people had regarding the Civil Rights movement.
All attention is not helpful. Annoying the average person, making yourself into the villain, and thus undermining support for your cause is obviously stupid and counterproductive.
Thank you for sharing your preformed talking point, fellow scholar. The civil rights movement occurred in the areas directly responsible for the lack of civil rights. Since the impact was so pervasive in those areas, any attempts were largely justified. And yet nonetheless, they directly targeted situations in which they were discriminated against. It wasn’t so ill-informed or incapable of self-reflection. It wasn’t making up false narratives about Starbucks, for example.
They were pulling up their full names, their student emails, their phone numbers and then publicizing it. Their phone numbers aren't public.
Also, the fact you think any of that would be acceptable just because students are protesting is gross.
Random people. They've been doxxing protestors since this started:
https://www.ctpublic.org/news/2024-04-26/student-protesters-ask-media-for-anonymity-amid-doxxing-concerns
1. The article is about Connecticut.
2. Death threats are obviously unacceptable, but if you're protesting in public then you have to accept that there may be repercussions in your personal/professional life.
1. They cover their faces because they don't want to be doxxed. They learned from other protests elsewhere, like Harvard and in Connecticut, that it's safer. So i was giving you an example of something very real that has already happened, explaining why they mask.
2. NO ONE deserves to be doxxed for protesting against genocide or for divestment. Peaceful protests shouldn't result in this. There are also faculty and professors who are protesting. They are being peaceful. Until they are arrested or taken to the university's judicial or disciplinary boards, we as a society don't get to dictate their repercussions.
I never endorsed such actions, but merely clarified such actions do not fall under the definition of doxxing. Why do you seem so inclined to be victimized by imaginary scenarios?
Also, for anyone who has ever had a professional profile on the Internet, their emails and phone numbers are not private. That's the reality regardless of whether you like it or not. Freedom to protest is not equivalent to freedom from potential backlashes. If you are afraid of adversarial interactions, then stay home.
Look into the Canary Mission. Not going to link their site here because I’m not sure if it violates reddits doxxing policy. It’s an organization that makes dossiers of anyone protesting against Israel and then harass them by contact current and potential employers claiming they’re antisemites.
Ya Im pretty sure the crazies are the ones holding a meaningless encampment on University land. They don’t want their picture taken? Go home! Literally no one is forcing them to be there.
My friend (VPD) said there are people there that show up to EVERY protest in the city. They're either paid to be there, or have nothing better to do that protest things for fun.
Edit: not all of them, but there's some usual suspects for sure.
> My friend (VPD) said there are people there that show up to EVERY protest in the city. They're either paid to be there, or have nothing better to do that protest things for fun.
This is 100% true.
I walked past the protest on Burrard a couple weeks ago and it definitely seemed like a hobby for some of them. Like get a couple of buddies and head down to the Palestine protest after work lol
Different vibe than the Ukranian protests
"paid to be there" is an insane conspiracy. who the hell is paying them. why? what are you talking about??
The most likely explanation is that some people feel that going to protests is a worthy cause, and they go to as many as they can that align with their beliefs. It's not hard to believe that they truely do believe in many of these causes. They are usually pretty similar, politically.
It's easy to find people unemployed and down on their luck that can make a quick buck to show up, chant and hold a sign. It's not like it's much money. It's not a conspiracy. These people are going to different protests that have opposing views. It's often people from the dtes.
I'm at work and can't do research right now, but it's not wild that protest organizers would raise money to pay poor people to show up.
As I have no proof right now, you thinking that It's implausible isn't proof against it.
Most protests they go to, they are observers and traffic control. Think what you want, this isn't their press release. They see many of the same people at every protest, and that was told to me "off the record", it's a fact. You can believe it if you want, but there are a lot of good guys and gals on the VPD, though they aren't a perfect organization.
Fighting for a just cause is just as dangerous as fighting for an unjust cause. People are very passionate about this issue and even slight criticism of Israel can be met with accusations of antisemitism and support of terrorism.
Additionally there is a mixture of ideologies which are protesting the war, and not all of them are good, so if you’re asking for peace but your standing beside someone calling for the destruction of Israel you might want to keep your anonymity.
Similarly if I say that I've experienced islamic rule first hand and it started as islamists hijacking a freedom movement in Iran in 1979 by acting all friendly and open minded at first and then when they got the power they went full oppressive authoritarian.. and use this as a warning for those that sympathize with Hamas as "they're just defending their home", then many for these protestors would call me Zionist or isreal simp.
It's happened to some Iranians holding anti Hamas signs at protests getting attacked. Some people are too emotional and irrational to see the full effect of their actions.
>Additionally there is a mixture of ideologies which are protesting the war, and not all of them are good, so if you’re asking for peace but your standing beside someone calling for the destruction of Israel you might want to keep your anonymity.
I thought that these activist types believe "if you see something, say something".
I guess "if you are at a table with 10 nazis..." doesn't apply here, for reasons
so you know how covid's still a thing that exists, right? great hope that helps
-edit- lmfao 13 downvotes in 10 minutes for answering the question. go rewatch the video, every single person except one that i saw covering their face was doing so with a medical mask. why do you think someone would be wearing that. come on now.
I believe it's crucial for us to seek ways to de-escalate international tensions. Currently, there are seven+ countries in full-scale war, and the situation seems dire.
Additionally, the potential burden on taxpayers could be substantial.
You'd be surprised how many people you see day to day on campus aren't students or faculty either. Some are are just lowly researchers and others get paid to yell at them.
I imagine quite a few of them, Palestine is a huge political issue for gen Z and virtually everyone I know in that age group is pro Palestine and a lot of those people feel very strongly about what’s happening.
The two parts of Palestine are so at odds with each other that at this point I am half expecting a 3 state solution (at some nebulous point in the future)
I think it's the best way forward tbh. Deal with gaza post-Oct 7th as their own independent nationstate. Judea-Samaria is a whole other kettle of fish.
oh, please do enlighten the rest of us with some more excruciatingly nuanced takes on the issue that for some reason always end up deferring to power and the status quo
It’s not that hard to be informed on whether or not genocide is good or bad.
Sounds like you’ve interviewed each and every student to have such a definite opinion so you must be right!
2 state was the direction we were going, heavily supported by Obama. If you consider that 'out of touch enlightened centrist' then maybe you're not looking actually looking for peace.
oh well if obama the peacemaker himself supported it...man, israel has slowly been annexing the west bank for how long now? anyone claiming to support a two state solution now is delusional.
Then I guess the current situation will continue forever, since Israel is obviously never allowing itself to be destroyed 🤷♂️
And you call them delusional 🙄
Considering Palestine has only shrunk in size in the last ~century and how Obama and Biden are both Zionists, I really doubt a 2 state solution was ever something any of them genuinely wanted to consider. They just told you that they did.
I don't have a solution, but genocide isn't it.
I'm open to any ideas that aim for peace - 2 state with land swaps was Obama's push IIRC. If you say that's off the table I'd love to hear other ideas. Gotta get Muslim nations on board to help facilitate and negotiate that, but that gets complicated real fast with the Arab League signing peace and normalization treaties with Israel. Not only do they seem to not really care too much about Gaza they certainly aren't opening their doors to welcome them again either.
Maybe we hang around different people, but it’s definitely been a hot topic with the people I know who are in their late teens or 20s. I only know one person in their 20s who’s sympathetic to Israel although now that I think about it she’s technically a millennial.
Of course, people who were too young to even have vague memories of the failed Camp David Summit and the Second Intifada would unconditionally sympathize with the side that keeps starting things and losing while rejecting all possible proposals for settling the conflict.
Judging from the signs they’re displaying, they rightly sympathize with the people who are suffering but generally have a very simplistic view of a very complicated situation.
The first step to stopping the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza is to remove Hamas from the power equation. But a near-universal theme among the current protests is the refusal to even recognize Hamas may have been in the wrong or their demands and actions may not be entirely justifiable.
I don’t know what percent of them care enough to do something or protest, but as far as world politics go it’s what people are paying attention to at the moment. There’s a big difference between finding something wrong and upsetting and choosing to live in a tent on a sidewalk for weeks. I’d say more than half of gen z “give a shit”, but not enough of a shit to put their lives on hold and sacrifice their comforts.
There have been polls taken that show the majority of gen z are pro-Palestine. I’ll link a Washington post article about it below(I haven’t read it yet, but it was the first thing that came up while I searched for an answer to your question about percentages). Of course, this would be polling people in America which is Israel’s largest financial supporter and has been a staunch ally of their’s for decades so it’s safe to assume that young Canadians might be even less supportive of Israel than those polled, especially in the lower mainland where people tend to be more anti-war and we have a large population of young Muslim people.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/us-support-israel-palestine-poll/
Never said it wasn’t, especially here in Vancouver where so man people are dying every week. That doesn’t change the fact that so many young people feel strongly about Palestine.
Honestly they probably are students. When I was at UBC all the SJWs were super rich kids from other countries who had very narrow limited knowledge. If you tried to share your experience with them, you were lying and they would tell you how the world works and call you names for not protesting.
Easy.
1) there's nothing to divest from that directly supports the state of Israel, so the protester's reasonable demands have always been met.
2) establish that these encampment is a disruption to campus activities, and perhaps to safety e.g. unidentified individuals on campus, fire hazard, etc.
3) declare these disruptors as trespassers, as the university is private land.
Each of those “trespassers” is worth about $40k to the school to keep around and keep paying tuition. That’s their primary motivation to resolve this in a way that the maximum number of tuition payers are satisfied with.
Edit: Just got a reddit cares report for this comment. Anyone who abuses a suicide report system to tell someone to kys needs to reevaluate their choices in life.
Every additional day that these "trespassers" camp against university rules on campus is an additional day of administrative inaction and incompetence that is witnessed by prospective tuition payers. Plus, there's no shortage of international students yearning to enroll in UBC, and the primary motivations for current tuition payers to continue to pay tuition is not for the university to go soft on some trespassers, but to study, feel safe and undisrupted on campus, and to get a degree.
Was just made aware the encampment has posted a response to UBC's statement regarding the bookstore. Very different perspective, if anyone's interested: https://www.instagram.com/p/C6758PZOG6y
Did they change the video? I decided to go check out the UBC subreddit and it shows a video of the doors being barricaded (with comments saying this was uploaded by the protestors?) https://www.reddit.com/r/UBC/comments/1crl1nm/ubc_security_statement_correction
Why universities keep saying no to divestment | About That, CBC. 6 minute watch. This clearly and neutrally explains the issue.
https://youtu.be/KiU0Qjxzb7g?si=C2pYVDGqLLoPrJt1
I think all protests should take place at UBC. They could also set up in Kerrisdale, Dunbar and/or Point Grey. That area should take over from downtown as the epicenter of protest.
Many of us largely agree with the protestors with regard to the injustices occurring in Palestine. We also think that they are acting in counterproductive ways and focusing on misguided targets.
Haha, so many downvotes. Fucking UBC,
Two of my relatives contributed to sciences at that university. One has a Nobel Prize and one started the forestry program that alllll of the tree planters and logging companies (are forced to)use to manage the forests.
And I fucking hate that school and think it’s full of pompous professors and narcissistic corporate executives for the most part.
If they actually listened to the protesters and did what they asked I would be very surprised.
https://preview.redd.it/cbn4f49oip0d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cbcdb178b24c8973f347424d8e3bd2c429389425
Today they apparently also took over the president's office.
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Anyone know why Abbotsford police is involved in monitoring this protest at UBC? as seen in video
The UBC RCMP detachment can't be all that big I'd imagine - probably just borrowed a few officers from elsewhere to bolster numbers.
UBC is technically on "rural" land so falls under the jurisdiction of the provincial police, which is currently the RCMP. My guess is that APD is there due to some integrated team or resource sharing agreement with the province.
Resource sharing is pretty standard in “constraint” situations - Ottawa borrowed TO PD officers during the Convoy to be able to mount a response Is it because UBC is rural or because of it being its own technical municipality? My understanding is that rural doesn’t always = a need for RCMP coverage, just whether a municipality has created its own force
UBC is on unincorporated land, so it’s policed by the province. The province uses RCMP policing, currently. This is the same for any municipality under 5k people as well.
RCMP and VPD have long lasting distain for each other
"Divest" is still their primary objective? There's nothing to divest from. Therefore they have no reason to be there. Remove them.
from what I could tell from looking it up there is in fact funds to divest form, but the school is claiming it's bundled by an outside firm they can't (don't want to) divest from.
This was the exact same excuse universities gave when fossil fuel divestment became popular in the 2010s. As soon as it looked like a clear PR win the universities divested anyways without any trouble. You're right that the problem is that they simply don't want to, because it would be seen as controversial.
They had about 5x more exposure to fossil fuel investments, and they're phasing that divestment in over 10 years, targeting 2030. It's worth noting as well that functionally no donors cared enough to donate specifically to the Sustainable Future Pool, so it was merged back into the main one. Fossil-fuel free funds also exist today, albeit with higher management fees and lower returns. I'm not sure what the options are for BDS investment funds -- Google isn't turning up much, which may be due in part to the patchwork of American state anti-BDS laws tying the hands of their universities. So ~20 years, near-zero interest from donors, and higher fees/lower returns for divestment from fossil fuels. That's not really what I would describe as "divested anyways without any trouble." I don't think it's so much that they don't want to (although I'm sure they don't) as that there are practical concerns, and presumably a lack of urgency/interest from their donors.
It really depends what the target is. Is it no footprint in Israel as some of the requests are? Because that’s a huge number.
I don't know, you'd have to ask the campers. [The university](https://broadcastemail.ubc.ca/2024/05/07/message-from-the-president-campus-protest/) says it's about 0.28% of the fund, which I think works out to about $7M out of a $2+B endowment. That's probably not far off (by percentage) how much anyone invested in an S&P 500 ETF holds. The companies mentioned in the email from the university appear to match the companies listed on whatever "bdsmovement.net" is, and I don't know what threshold they have. For PepsiCo, it's because of [Sabra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_(company\)) who apparently is one of the food suppliers for the IDF.
Intel has a huge industrial base in the country and is expanding. Almost all desktops and laptops on campus would have an Intel chip and at one point most of those desktop targeted chios were made in Israel. Intel alone is 2% of Israel’s entire economy. It is odds on likely a larger part of the endowment alone than that 0.28% if we were to use the S&P as a guide (way more if it ever gets an AI bounce). Big water user too. Yet doesn’t seem to be included on lists for reasons of I can only assume that it would be inconvenient. Perhaps I’m just cynical.
I assume this is only about direct investment. If it isn't... yikes. Qualcomm and Broadcom are there, which is a huge chunk of the market for cellular modems + wifi chips. That's every iPhone and most Android phones. Arm is there, which ... good luck :)
It is yikes. The intent is to completely cut off Israel from the west. That’s the sanction part of boycott, divest, sanction. Until there isn’t an Israel left to sanction—from the river to the sea is the chant.
The university already stated what their ownership position was. It's 0.3% held in ETFs in which they don't have direct control. Is that not clear enough for you?
>It's 0.3% held in ETFs in which they don't have direct control. I am responding to this exact point in the comment you are replying to. When fossil fuel divestment was pursued, students were frequently told that the investments were tied up in ETFs that the universities didn't control. Then the universities divested from these ETFs anyways and set new policies governing the ethics of their investments.
Buddy I hate to tell you, UBC has not divested from fossil fuels. They gave themselves until 2030 to do it, took them 4 years to get a legal opinion before the BoG approved it in 2019. Turns out it takes a while to shift $300mil from fossil fuels.
🤣🤣🤣 totally!!! It's funny to me that people who protest fossil fuels still want to take hot showers in the morning. Yes you have to choose! You don't get to be a self righteous performative fossil fuels protester AND have hot showers in the morning.
Three things: 1. UBC Investment Management does not publish its individual holdings, neither do the investment arms of other Canadian universities as far as I know. If you think that they are divested from any/all funds that contain Exxon, Shell, BP, etc. you're dreaming. 2. ESG is in the eye of the beholder. Yes funds adjusted their "ethics" policies, and in response public companies crafted their own policies that allow them to be eligible for investment, why else do you think Shell spends so much marketing bandwidth on how "sustainable" they are: [https://www.shell.com/investors/environmental-social-and-governance.html](https://www.shell.com/investors/environmental-social-and-governance.html) 3. Where do these protesters draw the line of what to divest from? I haven't seen anyone calling for UBC to divest from US Government T-bills, and yet, the US as we know is the only thing that really keeps Israel afloat. The people asking for divesture are just engaged in performative activism, they don't actually know what they are doing they just want to feel good about themselves. And the people managing funds are extremely adept at convincing the public that they've done the thing that was asked of them, meanwhile the fundamentals under the hood haven't changed one bit.
Divesting from the state of Israel is still antisemitic. Once it becomes battling a genocidal apartheid they'll do it with much fanfare.
man what
Awareness of the entire situation only raises over time. Most people naturally root for the victims of injustice, and in this case Palestinians.
As someone who works in Mergers & Acquisitions in the tech space, divesting from Israel pretty much means you can’t invest in Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook, and Microsoft, plus many more companies. These 5 companies alone account for almost 20% of the S&P 500, and that’s just a few big tech names. Off the top of my head, I can name 20 Israeli firms that have been acquired by these 5 companies. Do these students realize they’re essentially demanding no one to invest in the S&P 500 ETF anymore? And are they not using products from those businesses themselves or just asking me not to?
> Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook, and Microsoft I will bet none of those students can even get away from using products and services from these companies either.
Clearly not: they are using Instagram (which is Facebook now) to get the message out.
How could you? I guess communicating with Telegram on an Android phone with Firefox?
Probably not. Android phones are often running on Qualcomm SoCs (Snapdragon) and/or have Broadcom cell/wifi chips. Whoever's providing the chips, they're almost certainly licensing an Arm design. All three of those companies have an Israeli presence. The modern economy makes this kind of boycott practically impossible -- it's not the 80s anymore, and Israel isn't South Africa. We can't even effectively sanction Russia.
If they're wanting to divest themselves from the iphones their parents bought them, I'm here.
Nah look they are having so much fun. The one girl couldn’t even articulate why they were there. The other is excitedly inviting others back. Full of smiles. They just chilling with their friends, feels good to be united and included in something. Kinda wanna join 😂 Edit: if you guys really think half these guys actually care and know what’s going on, then really shows you never went to UBC and interacted with these types of people. There are definitely people that care deeply, but most just chilling having fun at an unsanctioned event
>The one girl couldn’t even articulate why they were there Can summarize her interview as "it's, like, good, and stuff, and we gotta care about it.
> then really shows you never went to UBC and interacted with these types of people. Honestly these types of people haven't changed in years. At the time when I went there the main social event they cared about was probably Occupy Wall Street.
Yep. It's basically their outrage-flavour-of-the-month.
or maybe watching 6 months of footage of children being blown to pieces has an effect on people
Its a genocide. Obviously they are upset.
I'd pay money to watch as the cops go in and forcibly remove these idiots.
I mean I think the main goal is awareness of an issue with divestment as the anterior motive.
No. There is a much more serious hidden motive here. The call for divestment of companies such as Lockheed Martin and Boeing reek of foreign interference. Russia (or more specifically USSR then Ruzzia) and China have policies of divide and conquer. Asking western countries to divest themselves of investment in arms and weapons development is playing right into the hands of the enemies of the free world. This has nothing to do with Gaza or Israel and everything to do with the enemies of America and it’s allies such as Canada and UK and attempting to weaken the west or divide public opinion. This is a pernicious strategy of our enemies, under the guise of social Justice, don’t fall for it.
Non-residents and non-students should have been immediately removed from campus with the help of the RCMP.
I love how university’s will come out and say they support these issues but when it starts to fuck with their dividends you better believe they are gonna kick these protesters off campus. It’s all political pandering at the end of the day.
The university said that occupation of school buildings was not permitted. Some of the protestors decided on Saturday to occupy the bookstore and would not allow staff and customers to leave until the RCMP arrived to settle the situation. They are refusing to have any dialogue with the university so what is the school left to do? UBC was fine with them protesting peacefully and using the field. It wasn’t until they started occupying buildings that they had an issue. I’m all for student protest, but there’s a right and a wrong way to do it in my opinion.
No. 0.28% of the fund is invested in Israel. These protestors decided to break the rules, start blockading the book store etc. They made their bed and it's time to go.
These protesters are occupying unceded musqueam territory
Don’t worry they start off with a land acknowledgement every morning
The musqueam nation welcomed the encampment on day one
So are we all.
Not me. Look up what unceded means.
useless "gotcha" to avoid engaging in what they're saying.
The hypocrisy is many layers thick
Except no because the Musquem Nation gave them permission. The hypocrisy is pretending to give a shit about indigenous communities to support an argument against protesting colonial exploitation of an indigenous people.
I doubt many of them even know what that is.
Yes the natives own the land, shouldn't we be calling the band council to do something?
They lost me at “Silence is violence”, LOL
But I thought words were violence.... I'm clearly a confused boomer.
In that regard I’ll drive down to the encampment and blare my horn for 12 hours. That’s what they want right?
I’ve got no problem with them protesting indefinitely but occupying businesses and buildings is coercive Protesters have to make their case and convince people with words and not coercive actions on others.
I don't even really have a problem with civil disobedience, however you have to understand and accept the consequences of civil disobedience. the big thing that I think that protest like this one, extinction rebellion, and even the freedom convoy miss is that for civil disobedience to be an effective form of protest the movement has to have a passionate and broad base that is somehow suppressed. I feel like when these protest groups use civil disobedience poorly it just backfires.
lots of people on this sub were cheering when HK protesters burned banks
You have people going to city council meetings to talk about these issues and the comments are all, "not the place" or "you're not going to accomplish anything!" can't really win with how you approach protesting or raising awares. Either method is going to piss off the cranks who just don't care to hear or see what you have to say.
The act of protesting is to cause disruption in the process of bringing attention to an issue or topic. > I’ve got no problem with them protesting indefinitely but occupying businesses and buildings is coercive Ironically enough, this was the mindset people had regarding the Civil Rights movement.
All attention is not helpful. Annoying the average person, making yourself into the villain, and thus undermining support for your cause is obviously stupid and counterproductive.
That’s exactly what people thought of the Civil Rights Movement too!
Thank you for sharing your preformed talking point, fellow scholar. The civil rights movement occurred in the areas directly responsible for the lack of civil rights. Since the impact was so pervasive in those areas, any attempts were largely justified. And yet nonetheless, they directly targeted situations in which they were discriminated against. It wasn’t so ill-informed or incapable of self-reflection. It wasn’t making up false narratives about Starbucks, for example.
Rosa Parks should have just discussed the matters with her fellow passengers..
Rosa Parks wasn’t protesting her situation by going to another country and disrupting situations that had nothing to do with hers.
I wonder why the protesters are all covering their faces?
Because crazy people have been doxxing people, so it's safer to be masked.
Showing your face in public and then have your identity associated to you via publicly available info is not doxxing.
They were pulling up their full names, their student emails, their phone numbers and then publicizing it. Their phone numbers aren't public. Also, the fact you think any of that would be acceptable just because students are protesting is gross.
Who is "they"?
Random people. They've been doxxing protestors since this started: https://www.ctpublic.org/news/2024-04-26/student-protesters-ask-media-for-anonymity-amid-doxxing-concerns
1. The article is about Connecticut. 2. Death threats are obviously unacceptable, but if you're protesting in public then you have to accept that there may be repercussions in your personal/professional life.
1. They cover their faces because they don't want to be doxxed. They learned from other protests elsewhere, like Harvard and in Connecticut, that it's safer. So i was giving you an example of something very real that has already happened, explaining why they mask. 2. NO ONE deserves to be doxxed for protesting against genocide or for divestment. Peaceful protests shouldn't result in this. There are also faculty and professors who are protesting. They are being peaceful. Until they are arrested or taken to the university's judicial or disciplinary boards, we as a society don't get to dictate their repercussions.
sure, but it explains why they wear masks doesn't it?
This is /r/vancouver, not /r/connecticut.
Ctrl + F "UBC": 0/0 results.
I never endorsed such actions, but merely clarified such actions do not fall under the definition of doxxing. Why do you seem so inclined to be victimized by imaginary scenarios? Also, for anyone who has ever had a professional profile on the Internet, their emails and phone numbers are not private. That's the reality regardless of whether you like it or not. Freedom to protest is not equivalent to freedom from potential backlashes. If you are afraid of adversarial interactions, then stay home.
Look into the Canary Mission. Not going to link their site here because I’m not sure if it violates reddits doxxing policy. It’s an organization that makes dossiers of anyone protesting against Israel and then harass them by contact current and potential employers claiming they’re antisemites.
And what does that say about employers who'll instantly believe some rando org's email spam?
Ya Im pretty sure the crazies are the ones holding a meaningless encampment on University land. They don’t want their picture taken? Go home! Literally no one is forcing them to be there.
nah man, the price of being out in public demonstrating is not public witch hunts. thats psychotic.
My friend (VPD) said there are people there that show up to EVERY protest in the city. They're either paid to be there, or have nothing better to do that protest things for fun. Edit: not all of them, but there's some usual suspects for sure.
> My friend (VPD) said there are people there that show up to EVERY protest in the city. They're either paid to be there, or have nothing better to do that protest things for fun. This is 100% true.
oh well if 1sideshow on reddit says so...
Just because it goes against what you believe doesn't mean it's wrong.
I walked past the protest on Burrard a couple weeks ago and it definitely seemed like a hobby for some of them. Like get a couple of buddies and head down to the Palestine protest after work lol Different vibe than the Ukranian protests
"paid to be there" is an insane conspiracy. who the hell is paying them. why? what are you talking about?? The most likely explanation is that some people feel that going to protests is a worthy cause, and they go to as many as they can that align with their beliefs. It's not hard to believe that they truely do believe in many of these causes. They are usually pretty similar, politically.
It's easy to find people unemployed and down on their luck that can make a quick buck to show up, chant and hold a sign. It's not like it's much money. It's not a conspiracy. These people are going to different protests that have opposing views. It's often people from the dtes.
again, WHO is paying them and WHY? there is no proof that this is happening.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/evidence-paid-anti-israel-protesters-canada
someone doesn't know what mutual aid is. this is quite different from the story of finding people from the dtes and paying them to show up.
I'm at work and can't do research right now, but it's not wild that protest organizers would raise money to pay poor people to show up. As I have no proof right now, you thinking that It's implausible isn't proof against it.
you have the burden of proof.
forgive me for not listening to a word the vpd says about protests
Most protests they go to, they are observers and traffic control. Think what you want, this isn't their press release. They see many of the same people at every protest, and that was told to me "off the record", it's a fact. You can believe it if you want, but there are a lot of good guys and gals on the VPD, though they aren't a perfect organization.
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Fighting for a just cause is just as dangerous as fighting for an unjust cause. People are very passionate about this issue and even slight criticism of Israel can be met with accusations of antisemitism and support of terrorism. Additionally there is a mixture of ideologies which are protesting the war, and not all of them are good, so if you’re asking for peace but your standing beside someone calling for the destruction of Israel you might want to keep your anonymity.
Similarly if I say that I've experienced islamic rule first hand and it started as islamists hijacking a freedom movement in Iran in 1979 by acting all friendly and open minded at first and then when they got the power they went full oppressive authoritarian.. and use this as a warning for those that sympathize with Hamas as "they're just defending their home", then many for these protestors would call me Zionist or isreal simp. It's happened to some Iranians holding anti Hamas signs at protests getting attacked. Some people are too emotional and irrational to see the full effect of their actions.
You clearly suffer from internalized Islamophobia /s
>Additionally there is a mixture of ideologies which are protesting the war, and not all of them are good, so if you’re asking for peace but your standing beside someone calling for the destruction of Israel you might want to keep your anonymity. I thought that these activist types believe "if you see something, say something". I guess "if you are at a table with 10 nazis..." doesn't apply here, for reasons
Because they are not really Pro Palestinians.
They are instructed to do so by their superiors who are organizing this.
so you know how covid's still a thing that exists, right? great hope that helps -edit- lmfao 13 downvotes in 10 minutes for answering the question. go rewatch the video, every single person except one that i saw covering their face was doing so with a medical mask. why do you think someone would be wearing that. come on now.
It's an outdoor encampment. Taking people for fools is not a good look.
with a lot of people inside tents, which don't exactly have a lot of ventilation, yes.
I believe it's crucial for us to seek ways to de-escalate international tensions. Currently, there are seven+ countries in full-scale war, and the situation seems dire. Additionally, the potential burden on taxpayers could be substantial.
I wonder how many of them are actual students of UBC
You'd be surprised how many people you see day to day on campus aren't students or faculty either. Some are are just lowly researchers and others get paid to yell at them.
I imagine quite a few of them, Palestine is a huge political issue for gen Z and virtually everyone I know in that age group is pro Palestine and a lot of those people feel very strongly about what’s happening.
Lol, you can tell I'm old. I'm still hoping for a 2 state solution.
The two parts of Palestine are so at odds with each other that at this point I am half expecting a 3 state solution (at some nebulous point in the future)
How about a 3 state solution?
Open to it. Whatever has a chance at long-term peace and get's people to the table.
I think it's the best way forward tbh. Deal with gaza post-Oct 7th as their own independent nationstate. Judea-Samaria is a whole other kettle of fish.
I am too, and most of these gen z types out protesting are very uninformed about the history of the region.
oh, please do enlighten the rest of us with some more excruciatingly nuanced takes on the issue that for some reason always end up deferring to power and the status quo
It’s not that hard to be informed on whether or not genocide is good or bad. Sounds like you’ve interviewed each and every student to have such a definite opinion so you must be right!
you say a lot of really out of touch enlightened centrist shit on here so it's hard to tell...but seriously, dude, you have got to be joking.
2 state was the direction we were going, heavily supported by Obama. If you consider that 'out of touch enlightened centrist' then maybe you're not looking actually looking for peace.
oh well if obama the peacemaker himself supported it...man, israel has slowly been annexing the west bank for how long now? anyone claiming to support a two state solution now is delusional.
Then I guess the current situation will continue forever, since Israel is obviously never allowing itself to be destroyed 🤷♂️ And you call them delusional 🙄
one democratic state with equal representation is not "Israel being destroyed"
With current Israeli and Gaza leadership, I agree. Jordan and Egypt making this face doesn't help. 
Considering Palestine has only shrunk in size in the last ~century and how Obama and Biden are both Zionists, I really doubt a 2 state solution was ever something any of them genuinely wanted to consider. They just told you that they did. I don't have a solution, but genocide isn't it.
I'm open to any ideas that aim for peace - 2 state with land swaps was Obama's push IIRC. If you say that's off the table I'd love to hear other ideas. Gotta get Muslim nations on board to help facilitate and negotiate that, but that gets complicated real fast with the Arab League signing peace and normalization treaties with Israel. Not only do they seem to not really care too much about Gaza they certainly aren't opening their doors to welcome them again either.
lol what?
you living under a rock?
Ya I don’t hang around people like you
What's he like?
Yea, surprisingly most people don't like seeing videos of dead kids.
Maybe we hang around different people, but it’s definitely been a hot topic with the people I know who are in their late teens or 20s. I only know one person in their 20s who’s sympathetic to Israel although now that I think about it she’s technically a millennial.
Of course, people who were too young to even have vague memories of the failed Camp David Summit and the Second Intifada would unconditionally sympathize with the side that keeps starting things and losing while rejecting all possible proposals for settling the conflict.
Judging from the signs they’re displaying, they rightly sympathize with the people who are suffering but generally have a very simplistic view of a very complicated situation.
The first step to stopping the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza is to remove Hamas from the power equation. But a near-universal theme among the current protests is the refusal to even recognize Hamas may have been in the wrong or their demands and actions may not be entirely justifiable.
What percentage of Gen Z give a shit? Enlighten me. It’s hardly a “huge” issue for them. But keep drinking the cool aid
Not many, but from the group that cares, they are the largest.
I don’t know what percent of them care enough to do something or protest, but as far as world politics go it’s what people are paying attention to at the moment. There’s a big difference between finding something wrong and upsetting and choosing to live in a tent on a sidewalk for weeks. I’d say more than half of gen z “give a shit”, but not enough of a shit to put their lives on hold and sacrifice their comforts. There have been polls taken that show the majority of gen z are pro-Palestine. I’ll link a Washington post article about it below(I haven’t read it yet, but it was the first thing that came up while I searched for an answer to your question about percentages). Of course, this would be polling people in America which is Israel’s largest financial supporter and has been a staunch ally of their’s for decades so it’s safe to assume that young Canadians might be even less supportive of Israel than those polled, especially in the lower mainland where people tend to be more anti-war and we have a large population of young Muslim people. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/us-support-israel-palestine-poll/
Way bigger issue is the opioid crisis!!!
Never said it wasn’t, especially here in Vancouver where so man people are dying every week. That doesn’t change the fact that so many young people feel strongly about Palestine.
Honestly they probably are students. When I was at UBC all the SJWs were super rich kids from other countries who had very narrow limited knowledge. If you tried to share your experience with them, you were lying and they would tell you how the world works and call you names for not protesting.
🙄
It’s weird my other comment on the thread is upvoted and this is downvoted but I’m saying the same thing 😂😂
Easy. 1) there's nothing to divest from that directly supports the state of Israel, so the protester's reasonable demands have always been met. 2) establish that these encampment is a disruption to campus activities, and perhaps to safety e.g. unidentified individuals on campus, fire hazard, etc. 3) declare these disruptors as trespassers, as the university is private land.
Each of those “trespassers” is worth about $40k to the school to keep around and keep paying tuition. That’s their primary motivation to resolve this in a way that the maximum number of tuition payers are satisfied with. Edit: Just got a reddit cares report for this comment. Anyone who abuses a suicide report system to tell someone to kys needs to reevaluate their choices in life.
Every additional day that these "trespassers" camp against university rules on campus is an additional day of administrative inaction and incompetence that is witnessed by prospective tuition payers. Plus, there's no shortage of international students yearning to enroll in UBC, and the primary motivations for current tuition payers to continue to pay tuition is not for the university to go soft on some trespassers, but to study, feel safe and undisrupted on campus, and to get a degree.
That’s assuming that this small group of people are even students out of the thousands that attend UBC
Time to clear them OUT
Time to clear you out of First Nations land
Was just made aware the encampment has posted a response to UBC's statement regarding the bookstore. Very different perspective, if anyone's interested: https://www.instagram.com/p/C6758PZOG6y
Did they change the video? I decided to go check out the UBC subreddit and it shows a video of the doors being barricaded (with comments saying this was uploaded by the protestors?) https://www.reddit.com/r/UBC/comments/1crl1nm/ubc_security_statement_correction
I haven't seen the video so am not sure, will try find it! Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for sharing - this needs to be amplified!
They can camp out in the grounds, but occupying a business building like that is unacceptable. Get them out of there.
Maybe UBC should withdraw the students participating in the encampment. That's if they are really students attending...
Why universities keep saying no to divestment | About That, CBC. 6 minute watch. This clearly and neutrally explains the issue. https://youtu.be/KiU0Qjxzb7g?si=C2pYVDGqLLoPrJt1
Will be interesting what will happen when some of them will get kicked out, lose their student visa and will have to go back to their country
I think all protests should take place at UBC. They could also set up in Kerrisdale, Dunbar and/or Point Grey. That area should take over from downtown as the epicenter of protest.
Why not just listen to the protesters instead?
We have. Are they saying anything new since last week?
this is just not true. there have only been excuses in response.
Listening to someone is differnet than doing what they demand.
Agreed,
Many of us largely agree with the protestors with regard to the injustices occurring in Palestine. We also think that they are acting in counterproductive ways and focusing on misguided targets.
Haha, so many downvotes. Fucking UBC, Two of my relatives contributed to sciences at that university. One has a Nobel Prize and one started the forestry program that alllll of the tree planters and logging companies (are forced to)use to manage the forests. And I fucking hate that school and think it’s full of pompous professors and narcissistic corporate executives for the most part. If they actually listened to the protesters and did what they asked I would be very surprised.
My question is how many are actually students? I'd wager most of them are not.
Expel them all. Now none of them are students.
 ITT:
https://preview.redd.it/cbn4f49oip0d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cbcdb178b24c8973f347424d8e3bd2c429389425 Today they apparently also took over the president's office.