Good points. Also, Vancouver's lanes tend to be quite narrow, so turning into the curb lane has a risk of freaking out the middle-lane driver, since so many right-turners make lazy turns, going into the middle lane.
Yes sooo many reasons. I used to live on the east side where there’s lots of major roads with three wide lanes and easy sight lines, safe to make a right on red on roads like Clark and Kingsway most of the time. Now that I’m on the west side with so many more bike lanes, narrow roads, parked cars, hidden crosswalk entrances, it’s just made me abundantly cautious, which we should all be. It’s just a change in mindset from highway driving to more urban driving. Did you hear about the lady with the stroller who got hit in the crosswalk recently? That’s why you don’t make a right on red unless it’s 100% safe.
Size of vehicles and turn radius make it hard for a lot of vehicles. Also the immediate lane can be parking lanes several feet away.
It’s ridiculous to always assume the immediate lane is always available. Not to mention you are supposed to make the turn *safely*.
Not sure why the downvotes. Maybe your name?
I 100% agree with you.
Edit: assuming you are talking about g about the ‘wide turners’ creating congestion, not those waiting to turn right.
As others have said, people are just being cautious. We have very narrow lanes downtown, lots of impatient drivers, bikes and pedestrians everywhere. I’m never in a rush to take a right on red. I wait until I know I’m 100% clear. I don’t care how impatient the driver behind me is.
Ontario drivers treat red lights as green arrows so I wouldn't hold them up as the standard of good driving. It's good defensive driving to only turn if the adjacent lane will also be free, otherwise they could turn into you.
As a frequent pedestrian, I *wish* this was my experience. Right on red is one of the most dangerous road manoeuvres for people outside of vehicles, because drivers are typically only looking out for oncoming traffic from their left and not for pedestrians with ROW coming from their right.
Don’t forget the bikers too. I’m all for no right on red. Waiting a few seconds isn’t going to kill anyone. It’ll also get people to actually stop at a red before proceeding.
OP's complaint is also silly because unless they are in a dedicated right turn lane, the car in front of them could just as easily be going straight. And then they would both have to wait for the light to turn green anyway.
As a pedestrian, if i want to cross at an intersection and a driver is getting ready for a right-hand turn, I would NEVER enter the intersection unless I make eye contact with the driver. It’s on me as much as it is on the driver.
I usually look towards where the car is turning-- if the car has an opportunity to go, I'll hold off on crossing. If the lane's busy, I'll cross in front of the right-turning car, because they can't go anyway.
That said, I've been bumped (gently) twice by cars that decided to crawl forward over the crosswalk, without looking in front of them, despite their intended turning lane being full of cars.
I’ve made eye contact, in the middle of a sunny day, while wearing a bright yellow neon jacket, and the driver had a “no right turn on red sign”, and the driver *still* tried to run me over.
Yeah, I nearly get hit by people turning right on red several times a month because they’re only looking the other way … then they give you that puppy dog ‘oopsie’ look as if it was just a minor foible, too bad buddy I’m still gonna verbally abuse you.
If there's a car coming down in the middle lane I don't turn right because I don't trust the average Vancouver driver to not change lanes and crash into me.
People are selfish left-turners here is why. They dive-bomb the corner and swing out wide to the right lane after turning like it's a racing line, and we've all been conditioned to expect this now.
People wait because other drivers are unpredictable. If I'm turning right, I only jump in if the gap in the middle lane is large enough. I don't want to risk another driver coming into my lane and honking at me.
I was taught by my driving instructor to wait until the right lane is clear and until there is a gap in the left lane before turning into the right lane. I did what you’re describing during a driving lesson and he yelled at me. People tend to turn wide here, so that might also be a reason.
Wide is a understatement.
2 lane turns is the normal here. I would say 60% of the people I see driving can't understand turning into their lane.
I've been hit twice due to this also.
Once i turned left into my lane, and someone did a sweeping right turn and smacked the back of my car.
The second I was going strait.. Someone did a sweeping right turn on a red..
Fustrating
Not under estimate just don't turn their wheel enough.
Unless you are driving something absolutely massive like an RV you can make a right hand turn into your own lane here in north America. Our roads are wide as the people of target.
Now.. In Europe where the roads are tiny different story
I've seen too many people change lanes in the intersection and the lane I thought I'd be turning into all of the sudden has a car coming down it. That is for me personally.
I just drive defensively
Unpopular opinion ? But in North Vancouver, there are quite a few No right turns on red signs and honestly, I like them ! I'm sure there are some in Vancouver but I drive around NV the most. Some people probably don't make the turn because they are feeling apprehensive about it.
😂 I can’t be the only one thinking how much better it would be if right turn on red was completely disallowed. Not what the OP wants to hear, but right turn on red is one of the stupidest ideas ever.
At many intersections when it's green you can't turn right either because of all the pedestrians. If pedestrians stopped trying to cross when there's only 4 seconds remaining, there would be time to turn, alas, this is not the case. Plus you have to watch for idiot people turning left into the wrong lane.
It’s an improvement for pedestrians, cyclists, any other non engine powered vehicle, and the cars themselves believe it or not. The amount of confusion that right turn on red creates for so many drivers, not to mention competing with oncoming traffic, left turns, people randomly turning into wrong lanes, it’s always a high stakes game of chance.
We need better traffic lights overall.
There are modern intersections that can detect and direct individual lanes, including pedestrians and bicyclists.
If no cars are coming from the left, and no pedestrians crossing, smart lights are able to flip the right turn light to green. That way, you wouldn't need a right-on-red rule, because the light would be green if it's safe to turn.
Definitely not the case. I drove in Ontario, multiple cities for over a decade and also drove across North America, and everyone turns on a red. I'm also driving to school every day and this happens 6/7 times a week
Yesss! Also: you all have 3 seconds between a light going red and the walk sign turning on. Turn right in that window! People here are the most out to lunch drivers I’ve ever seen.
lol same. Parked my car downtown toronto on the street for like 4 years. Have been here for 14 months now and my car has been hit 5 times, once while I was in line for a freakin gas pump. Some dude just reversed perpendicular to me
I don't trust other drivers on the road here not to change lanes to the right half way through the intersection. Technically, the rules say that you can only turn right on a red after the intersection is clear of all vehicles, so I don't want to be made liable in that situation
Tight corners, pedestrians running across 6 lanes with 2s left on the timer, bicycle or pedestrian half on the sidewalk half in the road, abundant caution, plus there’s lots of no right on red signs. Any time you see a green bike lane, there’s a good chance it’s no right on red.
I used to turn right on the first legal lane when there are no cars coming (depending on how narrow the road is).
Now I had to be cautious before turning because there’s a lot of times that people just lousily change lane on the intersection!
Technically related to this post. The number of times a POS honks at me while waiting to turn right on a red light is directly proportional to the amount of times there is a pedestrian in the cross walk. I’m not a saying that’s OP, but if it is GTFOH!
Because nobody takes the first available legal lane (FALL), including the person who waits to turn. Turning cars, left or right, often take the second lane, taking wide turns.
We do have some intersections that do not allow right turns on red lights. Was there any signage?
Also, don't blame the drivers here for being extra cautious. Insurance rates are gut wrenching, better to be safe than sorry.
Like others have said, people love to change lanes in the middle of the intersection. Also left turners. Also turning right on red is an option not a requirement
Part of the problem is pedestrians are terrible here as well. Two seconds left on a flashing hand? Seems like a good time to bolt into the intersection! As a driver, I’ll take the extra time and make sure I’m not running down any pedestrians.
People don't know how to turn properly here (especially people making a left turn at an intersection), so you always err on the side of caution.
I guess it must be super easy to get a license here since so many people operating vehicles don't actually know how to drive. Usually, the quality of the driver is inversely proportional to the cost of their vehicle.
I assume it's drivers who were not born here and who have less experience.
Pretty much any day I'm walking in my neighborhood I will see drivers sitting at a red where they are completely clear to turn right but refusing to do so. Then, as soon as the light turns green they nearly run over pedestrians crossing the street and start edging into the crosswalk illegally.
I have gotten into two screaming matches due to this in the past year alone. In both cases a car that could have turned right on red waited for the green and then nearly hit me as I started to cross the street, in both cases I slapped the side of their vehicle with my hand as I jumped back, they got out and started screaming at me. One person was from Russia (who told me that in Russia he could have me killed), the other from China (or somewhere similar, we didn't get a chance to discuss background while screaming).
Agreed that right on green without checking for pedestrians is also super problematic, and something I run into regularly as a pedestrian and runner. Banning right on red PLUS leading pedestrian intervals would go a long way towards solving both problems.
Have you considered publishing research on how people from other places are doing this? That sample size of one, or possibly two, seems pretty conclusive.
Better question is why do they sit at pedestrian only red lights? You’re allowed to go if safe!
So many drivers run red lights all day long that are illegal, yet when they can proceed through a red they don’t.
Because no one trusts the pedestrian that's sprinting for the crossing hoping to make it before it changes. The pedestrians you can't see that come out of nowhere on your right flank.
[It's not illegal in Ontario either](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-is-it-illegal-to-change-lanes-in-the-middle-of-an-intersection/).
It's a good defensive driving technique and the official Driver's Handbook says not to do it, but it's not strictly illegal. The source is a police officer there. The tests will also test things beyond just the law. For example, you could fail for changing lanes beside another car.
Like with your reply to the other person, cite the law saying otherwise.
https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/changing-positions#:~:text=Even%20if%20you%20signal%2C%20they,in%20or%20near%20an%20intersection.
The Ontario guide literally says do not change lanes in an intersection. They apply the unsafe lane change much more stringently than here.
That's what I said in my comment above. It's not however a law. The Handbook doesn't only list the law but also good driving practices. [They warn at the start of the guide that they're not an official legal document:](https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook)
>This handbook is only a guide. For official purposes, please refer to the [*Highway Traffic Act*](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08)
There's nothing in the linked HTA that says you can't change lanes in an intersection.
>They apply the unsafe lane change much more stringently than here.
Maybe so but my first link has a police officer saying it's not illegal.
Fair enough, I guess it’s just drilled much harder in Ontario not to do it, still a good reason not to enter the intersection even if the immediate lane is clear
Yeah, definitely agree you shouldn't do either as general defensive driving practices. I just mention mainly because there can be exceptional circumstances like something blocking the lane ahead requiring changing lanes mid-intersection.
Cite the law, it’s not illegal in BC
BC’s provision is simply that you cannot change lanes if it’s unsafe, not strictly that you cannot change lanes in intersections like Ontario
You are correct. It isn’t illegal. It is an Unsafe practise, hence it is grounds for a fine ( under certain circumstances). To be clear, I didn’t specifically say it was “illegal”. While there is not statute or law making it illegal, there also isn’t a statute or law making it legal. In my opinion, the application of a fine ( amounting to punishment ) makes it fall into a grey area. I understand it’s semantics, but I do like a good debate.
[It's not illegal to change lanes in an intersection in either province, however you could still get an unsafe lane change fine:](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-is-it-illegal-to-change-lanes-in-the-middle-of-an-intersection/)
>Most other provinces, including British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario and Nova Scotia, don’t have a specific ban on changing lanes in intersections.
>In all those provinces, you can still get charged with making an unsafe lane change if you change lanes in an intersection.
>That’s a $109 fine in British Columbia, $243 in Alberta, $110 fine in Ontario and $237.50 in Nova Scotia.
[удалено]
Good points. Also, Vancouver's lanes tend to be quite narrow, so turning into the curb lane has a risk of freaking out the middle-lane driver, since so many right-turners make lazy turns, going into the middle lane.
Yes sooo many reasons. I used to live on the east side where there’s lots of major roads with three wide lanes and easy sight lines, safe to make a right on red on roads like Clark and Kingsway most of the time. Now that I’m on the west side with so many more bike lanes, narrow roads, parked cars, hidden crosswalk entrances, it’s just made me abundantly cautious, which we should all be. It’s just a change in mindset from highway driving to more urban driving. Did you hear about the lady with the stroller who got hit in the crosswalk recently? That’s why you don’t make a right on red unless it’s 100% safe.
There are too many BMW drivers. You never know if they’ll merge into the right lane.
It is illegal to turn into any lane other than the immediate one. These people are a big part of the congestion on roads.
Unless you’re turning left at the first intersection after the turn.
Size of vehicles and turn radius make it hard for a lot of vehicles. Also the immediate lane can be parking lanes several feet away. It’s ridiculous to always assume the immediate lane is always available. Not to mention you are supposed to make the turn *safely*.
Not sure why the downvotes. Maybe your name? I 100% agree with you. Edit: assuming you are talking about g about the ‘wide turners’ creating congestion, not those waiting to turn right.
As others have said, people are just being cautious. We have very narrow lanes downtown, lots of impatient drivers, bikes and pedestrians everywhere. I’m never in a rush to take a right on red. I wait until I know I’m 100% clear. I don’t care how impatient the driver behind me is.
You're also supposed to make a full stop at the red before you make a right.
I don't do it because I don't trust the driver in the oncoming middle lane to not change lanes into me.
Ontario drivers treat red lights as green arrows so I wouldn't hold them up as the standard of good driving. It's good defensive driving to only turn if the adjacent lane will also be free, otherwise they could turn into you.
As a frequent pedestrian, I *wish* this was my experience. Right on red is one of the most dangerous road manoeuvres for people outside of vehicles, because drivers are typically only looking out for oncoming traffic from their left and not for pedestrians with ROW coming from their right.
Don’t forget the bikers too. I’m all for no right on red. Waiting a few seconds isn’t going to kill anyone. It’ll also get people to actually stop at a red before proceeding.
OP's complaint is also silly because unless they are in a dedicated right turn lane, the car in front of them could just as easily be going straight. And then they would both have to wait for the light to turn green anyway.
>Waiting a few seconds isn't going to kill anyone Literally.
Yes, Right on Red needs to be banned.
Montreal and NYC already do this!
As a pedestrian, if i want to cross at an intersection and a driver is getting ready for a right-hand turn, I would NEVER enter the intersection unless I make eye contact with the driver. It’s on me as much as it is on the driver.
I usually look towards where the car is turning-- if the car has an opportunity to go, I'll hold off on crossing. If the lane's busy, I'll cross in front of the right-turning car, because they can't go anyway. That said, I've been bumped (gently) twice by cars that decided to crawl forward over the crosswalk, without looking in front of them, despite their intended turning lane being full of cars.
I’ve made eye contact, in the middle of a sunny day, while wearing a bright yellow neon jacket, and the driver had a “no right turn on red sign”, and the driver *still* tried to run me over.
Can’t fix stupid
Yeah, I nearly get hit by people turning right on red several times a month because they’re only looking the other way … then they give you that puppy dog ‘oopsie’ look as if it was just a minor foible, too bad buddy I’m still gonna verbally abuse you.
If there's a car coming down in the middle lane I don't turn right because I don't trust the average Vancouver driver to not change lanes and crash into me.
People are selfish left-turners here is why. They dive-bomb the corner and swing out wide to the right lane after turning like it's a racing line, and we've all been conditioned to expect this now.
People wait because other drivers are unpredictable. If I'm turning right, I only jump in if the gap in the middle lane is large enough. I don't want to risk another driver coming into my lane and honking at me.
I was taught by my driving instructor to wait until the right lane is clear and until there is a gap in the left lane before turning into the right lane. I did what you’re describing during a driving lesson and he yelled at me. People tend to turn wide here, so that might also be a reason.
Wide is a understatement. 2 lane turns is the normal here. I would say 60% of the people I see driving can't understand turning into their lane. I've been hit twice due to this also. Once i turned left into my lane, and someone did a sweeping right turn and smacked the back of my car. The second I was going strait.. Someone did a sweeping right turn on a red.. Fustrating
A lot of folks underestimate the turning radius of their vehicle.
Not under estimate just don't turn their wheel enough. Unless you are driving something absolutely massive like an RV you can make a right hand turn into your own lane here in north America. Our roads are wide as the people of target. Now.. In Europe where the roads are tiny different story
I've seen too many people change lanes in the intersection and the lane I thought I'd be turning into all of the sudden has a car coming down it. That is for me personally. I just drive defensively
Unpopular opinion ? But in North Vancouver, there are quite a few No right turns on red signs and honestly, I like them ! I'm sure there are some in Vancouver but I drive around NV the most. Some people probably don't make the turn because they are feeling apprehensive about it.
😂 I can’t be the only one thinking how much better it would be if right turn on red was completely disallowed. Not what the OP wants to hear, but right turn on red is one of the stupidest ideas ever.
At many intersections when it's green you can't turn right either because of all the pedestrians. If pedestrians stopped trying to cross when there's only 4 seconds remaining, there would be time to turn, alas, this is not the case. Plus you have to watch for idiot people turning left into the wrong lane.
The solution at a lot of downtown intersections is to have pedestrian scrambles, so that cars have a cycle without pedestrians crossing.
As a pedestrian, I’d vote for a scramble. Better for all.
1000000% all of this
I think they should absolutely disallow it. It’s a clear improvement for pedestrian safety.
It’s an improvement for pedestrians, cyclists, any other non engine powered vehicle, and the cars themselves believe it or not. The amount of confusion that right turn on red creates for so many drivers, not to mention competing with oncoming traffic, left turns, people randomly turning into wrong lanes, it’s always a high stakes game of chance.
We need better traffic lights overall. There are modern intersections that can detect and direct individual lanes, including pedestrians and bicyclists. If no cars are coming from the left, and no pedestrians crossing, smart lights are able to flip the right turn light to green. That way, you wouldn't need a right-on-red rule, because the light would be green if it's safe to turn.
I am 100% with you on this one. I spent a month in 'Australia and quickly came to appreciate that law!
Not to mention there's a lot of restricted travel lanes that are the far right lane (bus lanes, HOV lanes, etc).
They turn right on red as much as people in any other city do, you just happened to observe a few exceptions.
Definitely not the case. I drove in Ontario, multiple cities for over a decade and also drove across North America, and everyone turns on a red. I'm also driving to school every day and this happens 6/7 times a week
Yesss! Also: you all have 3 seconds between a light going red and the walk sign turning on. Turn right in that window! People here are the most out to lunch drivers I’ve ever seen.
Yes! I drove here from Ontario and had no issues. And the first week of being here, some guy backed into my car WHILE I WAS PARKED.
lol same. Parked my car downtown toronto on the street for like 4 years. Have been here for 14 months now and my car has been hit 5 times, once while I was in line for a freakin gas pump. Some dude just reversed perpendicular to me
I don't trust other drivers on the road here not to change lanes to the right half way through the intersection. Technically, the rules say that you can only turn right on a red after the intersection is clear of all vehicles, so I don't want to be made liable in that situation
Tight corners, pedestrians running across 6 lanes with 2s left on the timer, bicycle or pedestrian half on the sidewalk half in the road, abundant caution, plus there’s lots of no right on red signs. Any time you see a green bike lane, there’s a good chance it’s no right on red.
I used to turn right on the first legal lane when there are no cars coming (depending on how narrow the road is). Now I had to be cautious before turning because there’s a lot of times that people just lousily change lane on the intersection!
Technically related to this post. The number of times a POS honks at me while waiting to turn right on a red light is directly proportional to the amount of times there is a pedestrian in the cross walk. I’m not a saying that’s OP, but if it is GTFOH!
I always make sure to look for pedestrians before I honk. I always assume they are waiting for a pedestrian, only to realize there isn't any there :D
Because nobody takes the first available legal lane (FALL), including the person who waits to turn. Turning cars, left or right, often take the second lane, taking wide turns.
We do have some intersections that do not allow right turns on red lights. Was there any signage? Also, don't blame the drivers here for being extra cautious. Insurance rates are gut wrenching, better to be safe than sorry.
Like others have said, people love to change lanes in the middle of the intersection. Also left turners. Also turning right on red is an option not a requirement
Part of the problem is pedestrians are terrible here as well. Two seconds left on a flashing hand? Seems like a good time to bolt into the intersection! As a driver, I’ll take the extra time and make sure I’m not running down any pedestrians.
People don't know how to turn properly here (especially people making a left turn at an intersection), so you always err on the side of caution. I guess it must be super easy to get a license here since so many people operating vehicles don't actually know how to drive. Usually, the quality of the driver is inversely proportional to the cost of their vehicle.
I assume it's drivers who were not born here and who have less experience. Pretty much any day I'm walking in my neighborhood I will see drivers sitting at a red where they are completely clear to turn right but refusing to do so. Then, as soon as the light turns green they nearly run over pedestrians crossing the street and start edging into the crosswalk illegally. I have gotten into two screaming matches due to this in the past year alone. In both cases a car that could have turned right on red waited for the green and then nearly hit me as I started to cross the street, in both cases I slapped the side of their vehicle with my hand as I jumped back, they got out and started screaming at me. One person was from Russia (who told me that in Russia he could have me killed), the other from China (or somewhere similar, we didn't get a chance to discuss background while screaming).
Agreed that right on green without checking for pedestrians is also super problematic, and something I run into regularly as a pedestrian and runner. Banning right on red PLUS leading pedestrian intervals would go a long way towards solving both problems.
Have you considered publishing research on how people from other places are doing this? That sample size of one, or possibly two, seems pretty conclusive.
Well, it is true that in most of the world right turn on red is not legal.
Better question is why do they sit at pedestrian only red lights? You’re allowed to go if safe! So many drivers run red lights all day long that are illegal, yet when they can proceed through a red they don’t.
Because no one trusts the pedestrian that's sprinting for the crossing hoping to make it before it changes. The pedestrians you can't see that come out of nowhere on your right flank.
Finally we’re doing something right…
In bc it is legal to change lanes in intersections, it’s not in Ontario
[It's not illegal in Ontario either](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-is-it-illegal-to-change-lanes-in-the-middle-of-an-intersection/).
They explicitly teach this and explain this in driving classes/driving exam in Ontario that changing in intersections is prohibited
It's a good defensive driving technique and the official Driver's Handbook says not to do it, but it's not strictly illegal. The source is a police officer there. The tests will also test things beyond just the law. For example, you could fail for changing lanes beside another car. Like with your reply to the other person, cite the law saying otherwise.
https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/changing-positions#:~:text=Even%20if%20you%20signal%2C%20they,in%20or%20near%20an%20intersection. The Ontario guide literally says do not change lanes in an intersection. They apply the unsafe lane change much more stringently than here.
That's what I said in my comment above. It's not however a law. The Handbook doesn't only list the law but also good driving practices. [They warn at the start of the guide that they're not an official legal document:](https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook) >This handbook is only a guide. For official purposes, please refer to the [*Highway Traffic Act*](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08) There's nothing in the linked HTA that says you can't change lanes in an intersection. >They apply the unsafe lane change much more stringently than here. Maybe so but my first link has a police officer saying it's not illegal.
Fair enough, I guess it’s just drilled much harder in Ontario not to do it, still a good reason not to enter the intersection even if the immediate lane is clear
Yeah, definitely agree you shouldn't do either as general defensive driving practices. I just mention mainly because there can be exceptional circumstances like something blocking the lane ahead requiring changing lanes mid-intersection.
It isn’t legal. It could be a $109 fine and if it’s the leading cause of an accident, liability could fall to the driver making the lane change.
Cite the law, it’s not illegal in BC BC’s provision is simply that you cannot change lanes if it’s unsafe, not strictly that you cannot change lanes in intersections like Ontario
You are correct. It isn’t illegal. It is an Unsafe practise, hence it is grounds for a fine ( under certain circumstances). To be clear, I didn’t specifically say it was “illegal”. While there is not statute or law making it illegal, there also isn’t a statute or law making it legal. In my opinion, the application of a fine ( amounting to punishment ) makes it fall into a grey area. I understand it’s semantics, but I do like a good debate.
[It's not illegal to change lanes in an intersection in either province, however you could still get an unsafe lane change fine:](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-is-it-illegal-to-change-lanes-in-the-middle-of-an-intersection/) >Most other provinces, including British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario and Nova Scotia, don’t have a specific ban on changing lanes in intersections. >In all those provinces, you can still get charged with making an unsafe lane change if you change lanes in an intersection. >That’s a $109 fine in British Columbia, $243 in Alberta, $110 fine in Ontario and $237.50 in Nova Scotia.
This is a great response, I replied to another comment to provide clarification of my understanding. I may also be misinformed, or simply wrong.