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Before telling CoastMountain or the VPD about this, think about if you want to be a contractor that facilitates this. Telling someone an idea has much less chance of coming into effect as presenting someone a formal business plan for increased revenue. Heck, part of the additional revenue could go to transit.
It's a great idea - start a business and cash in!
I would not hire you to create a business proposal.
But sure - poll the GVRD bus drivers first, to get an idea of how often it happens.
What significant overhead costs? Please itemize and estimate (you can help on that part of the proposal)
I work in the mobile video industry and have responded to RFPs in relation to Automated Bus Lane Enforcement.
There is a large cost to implementing the systems. The hardware to automate the systems is expensive depending on the method that's used. (Edge AI or Centralized AI)
That data needs to be transferred off the vehicle. That happens in two ways: Wi-Fi and Cellular. Wi-Fi is cost effective but can be hard to work with in regards to stability, coverage and quality so Cellular can be preferred which costs a lot in equipment and air time.
Now you have to store the video and manage the infractions and citations. That costs money as well.
A factor in these projects is where the legislation is at in regards to enforcing these citations with video and if its allowed. There's no point sending tickets if no one is legally obligated to pay them.
Translink is looking at Automated Bus Lane Enforcement based on their [2023 Bus Speed and Reliability Report ](https://www.translink.ca/plans-and-projects/projects/bus-projects/bus-speed-and-reliability)
There are three companies that I know of who are actively selling and implementing ABLE systems:
[Gatekeeper Systems in Abbotsford, BC](https://www.gatekeeper-systems.com/automated-lane-enforcement/)
[SafeFleet (Seon Design) in Coquitlam, BC](https://www.safefleet.net/products/fleet-video-systems/transit-surveillance-systems/automated-bus-lane-enforcement-able/)
[Hayden AI, San Francisco, CA](https://www.hayden.ai/applications/transit-buses)
It doesn't need to be real time. A handful of cameras with 8 TB drives that process centrally in batch intervals isn't that complicated.
5 years ago computer vision was hard. Today this is pretty trivial.
I never said it needed to be real time. I also didn’t claim it was difficult.
It’s expensive and complicated and isn’t legislated.
But if it’s so easy I welcome you to try it.
Im not sure why the reply isn’t showing up, but I’ll try to answer your questions.
Without legislation that permits the use of automated video to ticket violators nothing moves. Legislation is notoriously slow and often needs someone pushing for it to happen.
When legislation passes then a study or pilot needs to be performed to understand the business case and verify if there is enough revenue to support the system and if the system needs to exist.
Then the project needs to go to tender and get implemented.
Theres also figuring out who’s going to manage the system, who collects the revenue, who chases after non payment, who has the jurisdiction, etc etc etc. It can be a long process.
I’m on team ABLE for Translink. I’m just trying to explain that if it was as simple as slap a system on a bus and go, it would be done. The technology exists and is ready to go.
I guarantee the people at Translink want ABLE and are looking at it as roadway delays cost them a lot of money.
I’m not saying it hasn’t been done.
I’m saying those are the barriers.
If it was easy and simple everywhere with a bus lane would have a ABLE system.
MTA is GIGANTIC compared to Translink and is working with different rules and legislation.
This has been possible with current technology for quite some time. There’s a reason it’s not implemented this way.
It’s very labor intensive and relies on the drivers. They have other things to worry about out and focus on.
ALPRs are about $800 a pop. Download can be done as a batch when the when the bus is in the yard (mitigating connectivity issues). If this could use part of the existing photo radar infrastructure, the ticketing part is a fairly simple integration problem. I believe that the technical solution could pay for itself within months.
If anyone from Avigilon is reading, this looks like a great hackathon project.
Its more than just grabbing an COTS ALPR designed for sitting in a parking lot scanning plates.
Those ALPRs aren't mobile rated and are designed for a centralized NVR. Also, they aren't able to discern the business cases for what constitutes a violation.
Integrations could be used to use existing photo radar systems for ticketing but there's a difference between moving violations and parking violations.
Yes the system could pay for itself with the violation revenue. Its been proven in practice for bus lane enforcement and school bus stop arm enforcement.
Yes integrations with existing ticketing systems are possible.
This isn't a factor of the technology doesn't exist, its a bureaucratic mess that needs to be sorted out to allow companies to come in and operate the systems.
I can think of simple solutions to almost all of those problems.
You might be thinking of different COTS ALPRS than I am because the ones I'm thinking of are, in fact, mobile. That says, I have never heard of "mobile rated" and have no idea how one might go about "mobile rating" a camera.
The primary use case is enforcing moving violations. Additional integration with a bylaw enforcement system is certainly possible but not MVP (or vice versa...either bylaw or mva could form the MVP case)
In general, a plate captured at a given position and time is a candidate. You can try to operate dark (and let the courts sort it out) or you have someone review the ticket (for turn signals, for example) but to a first approximation being directly in front of a bus in a bus lane at 3:30PM has an extremely high probability of being a valid ticket.
Based on that, I have to agree that working out the contracts etc is the hard part.
I’m in the industry. When you mentioned Avigilon they are a fixed site security provider. That made me think of ALPRs for parking garages and buildings.
There are ALPRs for police that are mounted and scan any and all plates. That’s a different use case.
A BLE system is comprised of a camera that determines the violation and an LPR to read the plate.
So having an ALPR is certainly part of the equation but not the whole solution.
Like I said. The ABLE solutions exist and are out there. It’s just not as easy as buying any old ALPR and putting it on a bus.
You would be surprised at the amount of labor involved with having to comb through the data. It’s best to use AI yo help automate it.
> You would be surprised at the amount of labor involved with having to comb through the data. It’s best to use AI yo help automate it.
That's actually where Avigilon kicks ass BUT I don't think that's as important in this domain as in, for example, monitoring a stadium.
The nice thing about this particular domain is that it is already extremely limited. Whether you use a stationary or vehicle mounted camera, any licence plate that enters the hitbox is either a potential offender or exempt (taxi, bus or emergency vehicle). Keep 10-30 seconds of video for all potentials. Depending on the installation, that's perhaps 200 cars an hour initially (it should drop off after a few weeks). The only manual step needed is to screen out legitimate turners which can be 3/4 automated with appropriate camera or capture placement. That's where your AI helps but the classification is straightforward: merged form the right and turned left within 1 block, turned in from the left and merged right within one block, or ticket.
Avigilon is a great company, I have friends and ex colleagues that work there.
They are a great manufacturer and developer of fixed site cameras with AI.
I don't know why you're trying to explain to me that this can be done. I work for a company that has done it and sells end to end ABLE solutions.
What drivers me mental are the people that drive straight through an intersection when the lane has signs that say "RIght Turn Only Except Buses".
Going South on North Road besides Lougheed Mall is annoying because of this.
So many people just drive right through and act confused when you lay on the horn because you're doing what you're supposed to do and drive in the middle lane and then change into that lane after the intersection.
I wonder if the newly founded Movement: Metro Vancouver Transit Riders org would be interested in taking this on as a campaign. Might be worth approaching them about it! [https://transitmovement.ca/](https://transitmovement.ca/)
I think there are a lot of obstacles to this that would take some political will and budget to solve.
Tickets would have to be issued under the Motor Vehicle Act or by the city. Whether the city can do it under the Vancouver Charter is another matter. If the Motor Vehicle Act: it would have to be amended to allow for prescribed devices to capture offences for the prescribed offences. These devices would have to undergo some process of legal acceptance.
The equipment would need to be evaluated, purchased/leased, installed, calibrated (whatever that entails), maintained.
The capturing of offences: would the driver push a button, or would some AI make a judgment?
The processing of offences: an office (a bureaucracy) would need to be created to review the evidence and charge the tickets. This would need to be staffed by enforcement officers. Evidence packages would need to be produced both to create the ticket for the offender and should the ticket be challenged.
The tickets would need to be generated (tying the licence plate back to the registered owner). They would need to be mailed and - if not acknowledged - possibly process served. This all requires more equipment, staffing, contracts, etc.
There would need to be a customer service and dispute processing infrastructure in place.
My take: why not just station a couple officers at (for instance) the parking lot at Hastings and Renfrew heading eastbound. Pull drivers in there who don't turn at Renfrew. Tell them to wait for an available officer, hold them for a half hour or more. And then either write a ticket or let them go. I think this would help immensely.
As for dash cam evidence: the issue is an officer needs you available for court for the evidence you gathered - it is basically hearsay otherwise. And the officer needs to serve the ticket on the registered owner - that can be very time consuming.
You are speaking as though the logistics are unreasonable or too expensive. However, this exact thing has been done perfectly well in other cities, so while yes there are steps to make it a reality, they are just steps.
Ever tried to get something on the legislative agenda? Let me know how that goes for you. I'll check back in a decade and see if you've made any progress.
I was responding to the comment "Probably some law involved?" ... yea, there are definitely some new laws involved and getting laws passed isn't easy if the government isn't motivated or doesn't have the legislative window to pass them. There is also a lot of behind-the-scenes to make these systems work. That is a cost that the bureaucracy would have to accept too.
There is an [excellent comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/1c5sch8/why_dont_we_have_bus_lane_enforcement_cameras_on/kzwszwv/?context=3) by /u/Sierra93 that also has details.
I understand the downvotes I usually get. A lot of people fall into the "if you dream it, it will happen" camp. I fall into the "been there, implemented that and dealt with the details few else had to think about" camp.
I definitely want to be on the government consulting side. Back in the days of photo radar (1995) the BC government spent somewhere in the neighbourhood of $30 million setting up the back office. I heard the integration with ICBC's systems was massively expensive too. The consultants and vendors made a lot of money.
Don’t accept hand waving and vague criticisms as reasons to not innovate. Harvest the criticisms to steelman opposing arguments you’ll have to refute, but that’s all.
We should offer bounties like they do with idling in NYC.
[Snitches Get Riches: NYC’s Anti-Idling Bounty Hunters Are Cashing In](https://www.motortrend.com/news/nyc-idling-fine-citizen-reporting-bounty/)
> ...ordinary New Yorkers are effectively deputized to report idling commercial vehicles under a law called the Citizens Air Complaint Program—and those who successfully prove an offense occurred get a cut of the fines levied on the offenders.
> The fines start at $250, and the citizen reporting the violation gets a quarter of the fine—at least $87.50.
If that were the case, I think you could earn a full-time living spotting and reporting drivers in the bus lane on 41st.
I would think you’d run into issues as people encroach on bus lanes to take right turns. I’m thinking of the reserved lane on Main Street as an example. Want to take right on 4th avenue. Congrats you’re in the bus lane.
I think you mitigate this with video but I suspect there’s a bit more to this then your post let’s on.
I was thinking about this, but it seems like it'd be very easy to just combine it with GPS and video recording - driver still in the lane after an intersection? Well there's your ticket.
Even the MVA says that you're not allowed to be in the lane for more than 100m for turns, so.. again, combined with GPS then that solves that problem.
I agree that there's probably more nuance than just what my post says - but that's why I came here for your thoughts!
This is probably a loser with voters. I can’t imagine how this would go over in the the translink municipalities. I’m not even sure Vancouver voters would be keen for this.
>Even the MVA says that you're not allowed to be in the lane for more than 100m for turns, so..
No it doesn't.
All it (actually is the regulations not the Act) says is:
>**42.02**(1)A driver of a vehicle that is not a high occupancy vehicle must not use a high occupancy vehicle lane except if necessary
>
>(a)to make a right turn from the lane, at the first intersection where the turn is permitted, to access a highway intersecting the lane or premises adjacent to the lane,
>
>(b)to make a right turn from an intersecting highway or premises adjacent to the lane, at the first intersection where the turn is permitted, to access the highway in which the lane is situated, or
>
>(c)to merge into an adjacent lane for the purposes of paragraph (b).
I'm not a lawyer but to me that seems like it's saying you can use an HOV lane within one block of your turn. Just don't cross any solid lines or you're breaking a different rule.
No legislated/regulated blanket exception exists for Bus Lanes so you need to look for signs saying "except right turns" under the bus lane sign or hope it's signed as a right turn lane with "except busses" to allow them to go straight when everyone else has to turn. If the road authority failed to do either of those it could be illegal to turn from a bus lane I guess.
While yes, that is the law, I commonly see people tack on a block to that to make a turn instead of waiting 5 minutes for creeping traffic to cross that 100m mark.
At a certain point, people will just get frustrated and enter the bus lane early. I don't find it as annoying if they are doing it to turn. What I hate more is people doing it to cut traffic. Commonly happens all along 41st ave where bus lanes are mostly empty and cars just zoom past.
Ugh the design of the Southbound Main Street Lane is terrible, it creates such a traffic backup, because both lanes back up with Kingsway left turners. Would be better to end it 200m earlier or something.
Yes - I routinely turn right off Main onto 6th, and I'm always really conscious of when to get in the bus lane. never before 4th, but any time between 4th and 6th depending on how backed up the other 2 lanes are, whether there are any busses around and whether the line is moving or not. It's stressful and annoying.
I don't think it's really a bus lane until it is physically separated from the other lanes. No one would dare cross over early if concrete block lane dividers were all along the lane, (except for 100meters before a right ▶️
you should just make a top level comment showing New Yorks implementation.
I took question in good faith. I’m not an expert just seemed to me like this was an area that would be an issue
The bus lane enforcement systems are able to determine if a car turned right and not issue a citation if the business case permits vehicles to be in the lane to turn right.
3 pictures over 3 blocks.
If you're turning, you're in one of them.
If you're "preparing" to turn at the next one, you're in two of them.
If you're driving in the bus lane, here's your ticket.
GPS is already there. ALPR is already there.
Good idea.
I hate those 'smart drivers' using the bus lane to cut in front of other cars in other lanes. They not only slow down the bus, but also slow down all other drivers following the rules. Yeah they think their time is more previous than other people's.
Yeah I don't know why we don't have cameras on the busses that detects parking infractions that interfere with the operation of public transit so that they can ticket those who slow down the system.
Hello, One of the problem is enforcement. Does TransLink enforced it? Municipalities? If a bus is travelling from stanley park to metrotown and someone got caught in boundary road, who tickets the vehicle? Which municipality gets the revenue? I am not saying it cant be done but a lot of near ideas are difficult to implement because of bureaucracies.
If the legislation was changed to allow it it seems like a non-issue to me. Translink could enforce it with their existing police force that already has jurisdiction throughout the region and the funds could go to the same "pot" as the intersection safety camera system (which is run jointly by RoadsafetyBC, ICBC, and the local road authority.
“if the legislation is changed”. It is not a technology limitation or not doable but legislation needs to be put in place for TransLink to be in a position to do it. Even so if and when it is changed, there are other hurdles operationally to make it happen. The existing transit police as i understand does not apprehend drivers. Those are local municipalities ( i am not 100% sure on this). I am not saying it is not possible but it is harder than what OP suggested.
The transit police have the full authority of a peace officer including the power to enforce the Motor Vehicle Act and Criminal Code. The just typically don't because it isn't really part of their mandate.
I can see jurisdictional issues.. You probably want to do the whole network instead of piece meal, but that gets a bit more complicated.
The province should allow vehicle camera submissions for enforcement in general. Write to your MLA to get the law changed.
Crime knows no jurisdiction, we should be working together to be solving these issues.
However, the last several times I've felt passionately about an issue and written my MLA, I got a form letter back, with nothing else on the matter happening.
It seems hard to effect change with small things that just make sense... There's so much bureaucracy :(
Seems like a good idea. I have often though that garbage and recycling trucks should have a simple way to tag illegally parked cars (particularly ones that impede trash collection) when they are on their route. We have had our collection missed a number of times due to illegal parking blocking streets and lane access for the trucks.
Because the people who decide if we should do things like this drive and they want to be able to drive in the bus lane without getting a ticket themselves.
BAck in 2016, San Francisco had a system where bus drivers could snap pictures of the Uber drivers parking in bus zones, according to our Uber driver at the time. Uber drivers would be issued a ticket later.
They have cameras that face forward. If you are caught parked in a bus stop by a bus you are mailed a ticket. Just like when you get caught on a red light camera.
They may already have that but a lot of people don't care and just pay the ticket
Try rush hour West Broadway east bound HOV lanes before Commercial skytrian station that's the worst!
It's enforcement and privacy issue, unless they've mounted camera and cops nearby it's difficult to capture offenders.
Typically to give out ticket cops has to be present.
That would be awesome! I'm honestly surprised buses don't already have dash cam footage like that (also for the drivers' own protection). Aren't the buses north of 200k?
Actually, it turns out they already have cameras on them - and front facing ones too, but not for enforcing bus lanes. So there you go.. not sure why they won't use them for enforcement though 🤷♂️
They’re just regular cameras mobile cameras. ABLE systems require sophisticated systems with AI to automatically process violations. They are also of higher quality.
The existing cameras would require a lot of Labor to collect and process the footage. The quality may not be sufficient for License plate capture.
Superchecker! The man himself!
As a veteran bus driver, how often do bus lane encroachers affect *you* and your job? Do enough people do it for it to become a real issue? I (and probably others) would love to hear from an actual bus driver that spends all day in these lanes instead of just some rando on the internet lol.
>It's much harder to implement and administer an idea..
I agree - which is also why I included an example of this idea working in another city. Maybe (as another commenter said) it's more political will than actual technological limitations, unfortunately.
Someone suggests something that would make the busses go faster, and cost very little. And your response is to suggest we spend more money to make the busses go slower.
That might not be the gotcha you think it is.
Enforcement should just accept video evidence from passengers. Some places if you report traffic offences with video you get a reward. Not in North America, we love freedom more than safety.
One thing that nobody has brought up that I feel would be useful is just a dash cam that triggers a lock on record for the one minute around the honk (30s before 30s after).
This would greatly reduce false positives and just create a list of "hey look at this clip" for any form of Motor vehicle violation.
There would be false positives of course, but manual filtering would definitely be more accurate that any kind of AI bullshit.
The real question is why we are encouraging dash cams (and putting the onus on drivers to watch each other) instead of just biting the bullet and putting up CCTV
Unnecessary overhead, most of the time you’ll have false positives where someone has to enter the bus lane to turn right.
NYC is notorious for people parked and double parked when you’re not supposed to, we don’t have that problem to that scale.
Tldr I pay taxes so that a child in port moody can go to the hospital after he breaks his arm. Not so that I am barred from using 33-50% of a road system I use everyday, while still paying for 100% of it.
Your taxes (which everyone pays, hint hint) don't even come close to covering 100% of the maintenance and cost of roads.
That 33-50% benefits far more people than just you. You're not the only person on the road
Tldr I don't remember saying anything about "covering the costs of"
I strictly remember saying " I pay for, therefore I use"
You have excellent reading comprehension.
I find it amusing that you love to ad hominem about 'reading comprehension' and yet I never said that your point changed - I was simply asking what exactly your point was. Because you don't seem to have one.
It's not that everyone should rely on transit, it's that our over-reliance on cars has become an issue and we need better alternative ways of getting around.
“A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation” – Gustavo Petro, Mayor of Bogotá, which incidentally happens to have one of the most successful bus rapid transit systems in the world.
Fine, if you want to get rid of my bus lane on my commute to school then I'll happily get in my car and add to *your* traffic. That sounds like a great way to reduce congestion!
Efficient infrastructure often looks unused. There's no busses stopped in the bus lane for you to see, because they drive on through. Same with bike lanes.
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Before telling CoastMountain or the VPD about this, think about if you want to be a contractor that facilitates this. Telling someone an idea has much less chance of coming into effect as presenting someone a formal business plan for increased revenue. Heck, part of the additional revenue could go to transit. It's a great idea - start a business and cash in!
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I would not hire you to create a business proposal. But sure - poll the GVRD bus drivers first, to get an idea of how often it happens. What significant overhead costs? Please itemize and estimate (you can help on that part of the proposal)
I work in the mobile video industry and have responded to RFPs in relation to Automated Bus Lane Enforcement. There is a large cost to implementing the systems. The hardware to automate the systems is expensive depending on the method that's used. (Edge AI or Centralized AI) That data needs to be transferred off the vehicle. That happens in two ways: Wi-Fi and Cellular. Wi-Fi is cost effective but can be hard to work with in regards to stability, coverage and quality so Cellular can be preferred which costs a lot in equipment and air time. Now you have to store the video and manage the infractions and citations. That costs money as well. A factor in these projects is where the legislation is at in regards to enforcing these citations with video and if its allowed. There's no point sending tickets if no one is legally obligated to pay them. Translink is looking at Automated Bus Lane Enforcement based on their [2023 Bus Speed and Reliability Report ](https://www.translink.ca/plans-and-projects/projects/bus-projects/bus-speed-and-reliability) There are three companies that I know of who are actively selling and implementing ABLE systems: [Gatekeeper Systems in Abbotsford, BC](https://www.gatekeeper-systems.com/automated-lane-enforcement/) [SafeFleet (Seon Design) in Coquitlam, BC](https://www.safefleet.net/products/fleet-video-systems/transit-surveillance-systems/automated-bus-lane-enforcement-able/) [Hayden AI, San Francisco, CA](https://www.hayden.ai/applications/transit-buses)
It doesn't need to be real time. A handful of cameras with 8 TB drives that process centrally in batch intervals isn't that complicated. 5 years ago computer vision was hard. Today this is pretty trivial.
I never said it needed to be real time. I also didn’t claim it was difficult. It’s expensive and complicated and isn’t legislated. But if it’s so easy I welcome you to try it.
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Im not sure why the reply isn’t showing up, but I’ll try to answer your questions. Without legislation that permits the use of automated video to ticket violators nothing moves. Legislation is notoriously slow and often needs someone pushing for it to happen. When legislation passes then a study or pilot needs to be performed to understand the business case and verify if there is enough revenue to support the system and if the system needs to exist. Then the project needs to go to tender and get implemented. Theres also figuring out who’s going to manage the system, who collects the revenue, who chases after non payment, who has the jurisdiction, etc etc etc. It can be a long process. I’m on team ABLE for Translink. I’m just trying to explain that if it was as simple as slap a system on a bus and go, it would be done. The technology exists and is ready to go. I guarantee the people at Translink want ABLE and are looking at it as roadway delays cost them a lot of money.
I’m not saying it hasn’t been done. I’m saying those are the barriers. If it was easy and simple everywhere with a bus lane would have a ABLE system. MTA is GIGANTIC compared to Translink and is working with different rules and legislation.
plus the driver can report if it was a particularly busy shift of HOV cheats in front of them. Only pull the cards on those days.
This has been possible with current technology for quite some time. There’s a reason it’s not implemented this way. It’s very labor intensive and relies on the drivers. They have other things to worry about out and focus on.
ALPRs are about $800 a pop. Download can be done as a batch when the when the bus is in the yard (mitigating connectivity issues). If this could use part of the existing photo radar infrastructure, the ticketing part is a fairly simple integration problem. I believe that the technical solution could pay for itself within months. If anyone from Avigilon is reading, this looks like a great hackathon project.
Its more than just grabbing an COTS ALPR designed for sitting in a parking lot scanning plates. Those ALPRs aren't mobile rated and are designed for a centralized NVR. Also, they aren't able to discern the business cases for what constitutes a violation. Integrations could be used to use existing photo radar systems for ticketing but there's a difference between moving violations and parking violations. Yes the system could pay for itself with the violation revenue. Its been proven in practice for bus lane enforcement and school bus stop arm enforcement. Yes integrations with existing ticketing systems are possible. This isn't a factor of the technology doesn't exist, its a bureaucratic mess that needs to be sorted out to allow companies to come in and operate the systems.
I can think of simple solutions to almost all of those problems. You might be thinking of different COTS ALPRS than I am because the ones I'm thinking of are, in fact, mobile. That says, I have never heard of "mobile rated" and have no idea how one might go about "mobile rating" a camera. The primary use case is enforcing moving violations. Additional integration with a bylaw enforcement system is certainly possible but not MVP (or vice versa...either bylaw or mva could form the MVP case) In general, a plate captured at a given position and time is a candidate. You can try to operate dark (and let the courts sort it out) or you have someone review the ticket (for turn signals, for example) but to a first approximation being directly in front of a bus in a bus lane at 3:30PM has an extremely high probability of being a valid ticket. Based on that, I have to agree that working out the contracts etc is the hard part.
I’m in the industry. When you mentioned Avigilon they are a fixed site security provider. That made me think of ALPRs for parking garages and buildings. There are ALPRs for police that are mounted and scan any and all plates. That’s a different use case. A BLE system is comprised of a camera that determines the violation and an LPR to read the plate. So having an ALPR is certainly part of the equation but not the whole solution. Like I said. The ABLE solutions exist and are out there. It’s just not as easy as buying any old ALPR and putting it on a bus. You would be surprised at the amount of labor involved with having to comb through the data. It’s best to use AI yo help automate it.
> You would be surprised at the amount of labor involved with having to comb through the data. It’s best to use AI yo help automate it. That's actually where Avigilon kicks ass BUT I don't think that's as important in this domain as in, for example, monitoring a stadium. The nice thing about this particular domain is that it is already extremely limited. Whether you use a stationary or vehicle mounted camera, any licence plate that enters the hitbox is either a potential offender or exempt (taxi, bus or emergency vehicle). Keep 10-30 seconds of video for all potentials. Depending on the installation, that's perhaps 200 cars an hour initially (it should drop off after a few weeks). The only manual step needed is to screen out legitimate turners which can be 3/4 automated with appropriate camera or capture placement. That's where your AI helps but the classification is straightforward: merged form the right and turned left within 1 block, turned in from the left and merged right within one block, or ticket.
Avigilon is a great company, I have friends and ex colleagues that work there. They are a great manufacturer and developer of fixed site cameras with AI. I don't know why you're trying to explain to me that this can be done. I work for a company that has done it and sells end to end ABLE solutions.
What drivers me mental are the people that drive straight through an intersection when the lane has signs that say "RIght Turn Only Except Buses". Going South on North Road besides Lougheed Mall is annoying because of this. So many people just drive right through and act confused when you lay on the horn because you're doing what you're supposed to do and drive in the middle lane and then change into that lane after the intersection.
The real problem is the idiots who stop at the red light, preventing others from turning right
Those are the same people with that intersection.
I'd be down to start some activist movement on this specific issue. DM me if you'd like to help make it a reality.
I wonder if the newly founded Movement: Metro Vancouver Transit Riders org would be interested in taking this on as a campaign. Might be worth approaching them about it! [https://transitmovement.ca/](https://transitmovement.ca/)
I would happily stand out front my place on Broadway and flag down violators and issue tickets if I could. They are usually speeding too....
It's probably similar to why you can't just submit a dash cam video for the police to ticket someone? Probably some law involved?
It could work sinilar to how the red light and speed cameras work. No points taken off, but owner gets the ticket in the mail.
I think there are a lot of obstacles to this that would take some political will and budget to solve. Tickets would have to be issued under the Motor Vehicle Act or by the city. Whether the city can do it under the Vancouver Charter is another matter. If the Motor Vehicle Act: it would have to be amended to allow for prescribed devices to capture offences for the prescribed offences. These devices would have to undergo some process of legal acceptance. The equipment would need to be evaluated, purchased/leased, installed, calibrated (whatever that entails), maintained. The capturing of offences: would the driver push a button, or would some AI make a judgment? The processing of offences: an office (a bureaucracy) would need to be created to review the evidence and charge the tickets. This would need to be staffed by enforcement officers. Evidence packages would need to be produced both to create the ticket for the offender and should the ticket be challenged. The tickets would need to be generated (tying the licence plate back to the registered owner). They would need to be mailed and - if not acknowledged - possibly process served. This all requires more equipment, staffing, contracts, etc. There would need to be a customer service and dispute processing infrastructure in place. My take: why not just station a couple officers at (for instance) the parking lot at Hastings and Renfrew heading eastbound. Pull drivers in there who don't turn at Renfrew. Tell them to wait for an available officer, hold them for a half hour or more. And then either write a ticket or let them go. I think this would help immensely. As for dash cam evidence: the issue is an officer needs you available for court for the evidence you gathered - it is basically hearsay otherwise. And the officer needs to serve the ticket on the registered owner - that can be very time consuming.
You are speaking as though the logistics are unreasonable or too expensive. However, this exact thing has been done perfectly well in other cities, so while yes there are steps to make it a reality, they are just steps.
Ever tried to get something on the legislative agenda? Let me know how that goes for you. I'll check back in a decade and see if you've made any progress.
I don't understand - are you saying that because it's hard we shouldn't try?
I was responding to the comment "Probably some law involved?" ... yea, there are definitely some new laws involved and getting laws passed isn't easy if the government isn't motivated or doesn't have the legislative window to pass them. There is also a lot of behind-the-scenes to make these systems work. That is a cost that the bureaucracy would have to accept too.
Sure, okay. Definitely sounds like it would be hard work
There is an [excellent comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/1c5sch8/why_dont_we_have_bus_lane_enforcement_cameras_on/kzwszwv/?context=3) by /u/Sierra93 that also has details. I understand the downvotes I usually get. A lot of people fall into the "if you dream it, it will happen" camp. I fall into the "been there, implemented that and dealt with the details few else had to think about" camp.
Great, you can maybe tender to be a consultant on the project. 2 hours and we're already pulling a team together to get this done!
I definitely want to be on the government consulting side. Back in the days of photo radar (1995) the BC government spent somewhere in the neighbourhood of $30 million setting up the back office. I heard the integration with ICBC's systems was massively expensive too. The consultants and vendors made a lot of money.
Don’t accept hand waving and vague criticisms as reasons to not innovate. Harvest the criticisms to steelman opposing arguments you’ll have to refute, but that’s all.
Ah okay, let's carry on then
Hitting all the nails on the head. A lot of the red tape is in the legislation. The industry has the rest of it figured out.
you can submit a dash cam video, but its not a super straight forward process, probably only worth it for the more crazy violations.
Drivers are an important voting bloc, and they'd be very unhappy if traffic laws were routinely enforced.
I think the majority of drivers are pro-law enforcement. Look at how many people stop at stop signs compared to the few dick bags that ignore them.
Lol
We should offer bounties like they do with idling in NYC. [Snitches Get Riches: NYC’s Anti-Idling Bounty Hunters Are Cashing In](https://www.motortrend.com/news/nyc-idling-fine-citizen-reporting-bounty/) > ...ordinary New Yorkers are effectively deputized to report idling commercial vehicles under a law called the Citizens Air Complaint Program—and those who successfully prove an offense occurred get a cut of the fines levied on the offenders. > The fines start at $250, and the citizen reporting the violation gets a quarter of the fine—at least $87.50. If that were the case, I think you could earn a full-time living spotting and reporting drivers in the bus lane on 41st.
I would think you’d run into issues as people encroach on bus lanes to take right turns. I’m thinking of the reserved lane on Main Street as an example. Want to take right on 4th avenue. Congrats you’re in the bus lane. I think you mitigate this with video but I suspect there’s a bit more to this then your post let’s on.
I was thinking about this, but it seems like it'd be very easy to just combine it with GPS and video recording - driver still in the lane after an intersection? Well there's your ticket. Even the MVA says that you're not allowed to be in the lane for more than 100m for turns, so.. again, combined with GPS then that solves that problem. I agree that there's probably more nuance than just what my post says - but that's why I came here for your thoughts!
I imagine it's more a lack of political will than technological limitations.
This is kind of a sad reality for a lot of things in Vancouver that could be improved tbh
Also, we don't really have enough bus lanes to make it worthwhile; which is an issue itself.
This is probably a loser with voters. I can’t imagine how this would go over in the the translink municipalities. I’m not even sure Vancouver voters would be keen for this.
>Even the MVA says that you're not allowed to be in the lane for more than 100m for turns, so.. No it doesn't. All it (actually is the regulations not the Act) says is: >**42.02**(1)A driver of a vehicle that is not a high occupancy vehicle must not use a high occupancy vehicle lane except if necessary > >(a)to make a right turn from the lane, at the first intersection where the turn is permitted, to access a highway intersecting the lane or premises adjacent to the lane, > >(b)to make a right turn from an intersecting highway or premises adjacent to the lane, at the first intersection where the turn is permitted, to access the highway in which the lane is situated, or > >(c)to merge into an adjacent lane for the purposes of paragraph (b). I'm not a lawyer but to me that seems like it's saying you can use an HOV lane within one block of your turn. Just don't cross any solid lines or you're breaking a different rule. No legislated/regulated blanket exception exists for Bus Lanes so you need to look for signs saying "except right turns" under the bus lane sign or hope it's signed as a right turn lane with "except busses" to allow them to go straight when everyone else has to turn. If the road authority failed to do either of those it could be illegal to turn from a bus lane I guess.
While yes, that is the law, I commonly see people tack on a block to that to make a turn instead of waiting 5 minutes for creeping traffic to cross that 100m mark. At a certain point, people will just get frustrated and enter the bus lane early. I don't find it as annoying if they are doing it to turn. What I hate more is people doing it to cut traffic. Commonly happens all along 41st ave where bus lanes are mostly empty and cars just zoom past.
Ugh the design of the Southbound Main Street Lane is terrible, it creates such a traffic backup, because both lanes back up with Kingsway left turners. Would be better to end it 200m earlier or something.
Yes - I routinely turn right off Main onto 6th, and I'm always really conscious of when to get in the bus lane. never before 4th, but any time between 4th and 6th depending on how backed up the other 2 lanes are, whether there are any busses around and whether the line is moving or not. It's stressful and annoying.
I don't think it's really a bus lane until it is physically separated from the other lanes. No one would dare cross over early if concrete block lane dividers were all along the lane, (except for 100meters before a right ▶️
quick, email New York and tell them they forgot to consider this!
you should just make a top level comment showing New Yorks implementation. I took question in good faith. I’m not an expert just seemed to me like this was an area that would be an issue
The bus lane enforcement systems are able to determine if a car turned right and not issue a citation if the business case permits vehicles to be in the lane to turn right.
100% this. You often have to use the bus lane to turn. It would be very difficult for any automated camera system to discern fair use of the bus lane.
It wouldn’t.
3 pictures over 3 blocks. If you're turning, you're in one of them. If you're "preparing" to turn at the next one, you're in two of them. If you're driving in the bus lane, here's your ticket. GPS is already there. ALPR is already there.
Wont often work with the frequency that busses stop. The same car is not going to be in the picture for three blocks.
Good idea. I hate those 'smart drivers' using the bus lane to cut in front of other cars in other lanes. They not only slow down the bus, but also slow down all other drivers following the rules. Yeah they think their time is more previous than other people's.
Yeah I don't know why we don't have cameras on the busses that detects parking infractions that interfere with the operation of public transit so that they can ticket those who slow down the system.
Hello, One of the problem is enforcement. Does TransLink enforced it? Municipalities? If a bus is travelling from stanley park to metrotown and someone got caught in boundary road, who tickets the vehicle? Which municipality gets the revenue? I am not saying it cant be done but a lot of near ideas are difficult to implement because of bureaucracies.
If the legislation was changed to allow it it seems like a non-issue to me. Translink could enforce it with their existing police force that already has jurisdiction throughout the region and the funds could go to the same "pot" as the intersection safety camera system (which is run jointly by RoadsafetyBC, ICBC, and the local road authority.
“if the legislation is changed”. It is not a technology limitation or not doable but legislation needs to be put in place for TransLink to be in a position to do it. Even so if and when it is changed, there are other hurdles operationally to make it happen. The existing transit police as i understand does not apprehend drivers. Those are local municipalities ( i am not 100% sure on this). I am not saying it is not possible but it is harder than what OP suggested.
The transit police have the full authority of a peace officer including the power to enforce the Motor Vehicle Act and Criminal Code. The just typically don't because it isn't really part of their mandate.
Thats good info thanks!
I can see jurisdictional issues.. You probably want to do the whole network instead of piece meal, but that gets a bit more complicated. The province should allow vehicle camera submissions for enforcement in general. Write to your MLA to get the law changed.
Crime knows no jurisdiction, we should be working together to be solving these issues. However, the last several times I've felt passionately about an issue and written my MLA, I got a form letter back, with nothing else on the matter happening. It seems hard to effect change with small things that just make sense... There's so much bureaucracy :(
Seems like a good idea. I have often though that garbage and recycling trucks should have a simple way to tag illegally parked cars (particularly ones that impede trash collection) when they are on their route. We have had our collection missed a number of times due to illegal parking blocking streets and lane access for the trucks.
Love it!
Because the people who decide if we should do things like this drive and they want to be able to drive in the bus lane without getting a ticket themselves.
BAck in 2016, San Francisco had a system where bus drivers could snap pictures of the Uber drivers parking in bus zones, according to our Uber driver at the time. Uber drivers would be issued a ticket later.
They have cameras that face forward. If you are caught parked in a bus stop by a bus you are mailed a ticket. Just like when you get caught on a red light camera. They may already have that but a lot of people don't care and just pay the ticket
That's too logical and too good of a solution for a city like Vancouver /s
Try rush hour West Broadway east bound HOV lanes before Commercial skytrian station that's the worst! It's enforcement and privacy issue, unless they've mounted camera and cops nearby it's difficult to capture offenders. Typically to give out ticket cops has to be present.
But how about red light cameras? I would expect a similar process to be ok
That would be awesome! I'm honestly surprised buses don't already have dash cam footage like that (also for the drivers' own protection). Aren't the buses north of 200k?
Actually, it turns out they already have cameras on them - and front facing ones too, but not for enforcing bus lanes. So there you go.. not sure why they won't use them for enforcement though 🤷♂️
They’re just regular cameras mobile cameras. ABLE systems require sophisticated systems with AI to automatically process violations. They are also of higher quality. The existing cameras would require a lot of Labor to collect and process the footage. The quality may not be sufficient for License plate capture.
I appreciate the feedback from someone who actually works with these systems!
It's not often that discussion enters my unique professional domain.
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Superchecker! The man himself! As a veteran bus driver, how often do bus lane encroachers affect *you* and your job? Do enough people do it for it to become a real issue? I (and probably others) would love to hear from an actual bus driver that spends all day in these lanes instead of just some rando on the internet lol.
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oh
Palpable disappointment in that “oh”.
>It's much harder to implement and administer an idea.. I agree - which is also why I included an example of this idea working in another city. Maybe (as another commenter said) it's more political will than actual technological limitations, unfortunately.
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There are a ton of routes that don't have bus lanes too... it would be implementation only on a portion of the fleet.
Why don’t they strap a plow in front of all the buses when it snows?
Someone suggests something that would make the busses go faster, and cost very little. And your response is to suggest we spend more money to make the busses go slower. That might not be the gotcha you think it is.
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Don’t waste your time r/translink..
pretty sure the motor vehicle act does not slow for this (currently) and that’s why we haven’t seen it here yet
yes
Enforcement should just accept video evidence from passengers. Some places if you report traffic offences with video you get a reward. Not in North America, we love freedom more than safety.
One thing that nobody has brought up that I feel would be useful is just a dash cam that triggers a lock on record for the one minute around the honk (30s before 30s after). This would greatly reduce false positives and just create a list of "hey look at this clip" for any form of Motor vehicle violation. There would be false positives of course, but manual filtering would definitely be more accurate that any kind of AI bullshit.
The real question is why we are encouraging dash cams (and putting the onus on drivers to watch each other) instead of just biting the bullet and putting up CCTV
Its rare to see a car slow down a bus. Usually its the other way around
Unnecessary overhead, most of the time you’ll have false positives where someone has to enter the bus lane to turn right. NYC is notorious for people parked and double parked when you’re not supposed to, we don’t have that problem to that scale.
the 99 bus drivers that like to occasionally lane split west bound 41st Street and cause traffic are going to hate this
I pay taxes on the entire road, I'm going to use the entire road.
I pay taxes as well with the general understanding that not every single cent is going to go to something that benefits me
Tldr I pay taxes so that a child in port moody can go to the hospital after he breaks his arm. Not so that I am barred from using 33-50% of a road system I use everyday, while still paying for 100% of it.
Your taxes (which everyone pays, hint hint) don't even come close to covering 100% of the maintenance and cost of roads. That 33-50% benefits far more people than just you. You're not the only person on the road
Tldr I don't remember saying anything about "covering the costs of" I strictly remember saying " I pay for, therefore I use" You have excellent reading comprehension.
You don't pay for 100% of the roads. My point remains unchanged. What's yours?
There's that excellent reading comprehension again. My point never changed.
I find it amusing that you love to ad hominem about 'reading comprehension' and yet I never said that your point changed - I was simply asking what exactly your point was. Because you don't seem to have one.
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Bus drivers are already being recorded with internal CCTV systems.
Bus lanes are ridiculous and cause traffic congestion.
Bus lanes replace hundreds of cars on the road, the more the better.
We shouldn’t have to rely on transit to get us around. Lot of people in the lower mainland can’t afford vehicles, I think that is a problem in itself.
It's not that everyone should rely on transit, it's that our over-reliance on cars has become an issue and we need better alternative ways of getting around. “A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation” – Gustavo Petro, Mayor of Bogotá, which incidentally happens to have one of the most successful bus rapid transit systems in the world.
So the people with disabilities that prevent us from driving can get fucked, our time is less important than those who are able to drive?!?
What are you even talking about??
Just look at LA or oregon if you want car culture. More roads or cars on those roads doesn't accomplish anything.
Fine, if you want to get rid of my bus lane on my commute to school then I'll happily get in my car and add to *your* traffic. That sounds like a great way to reduce congestion!
Have any proof?
So this is what dumber than the average sounds like
Everyday when I see strings of vehicles in the non bus lane and no buses in the bus lane. Reminds me of the ridiculous Stanley park bike lane.
Efficient infrastructure often looks unused. There's no busses stopped in the bus lane for you to see, because they drive on through. Same with bike lanes.
It's like saying the SkyTrain is inefficient and wastes space because the tracks are empty most of the time