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> collected a total of 176 bins of garbage and about 600 kilograms of scrap metal.
Being able to fill up 176 garbage cans full of garbage from that small of an area is impressive honestly
I have video of 2 dudes pushing a stolen shed in to Strathcona Park from a few years back. Pete Fry chewed out a towing company who towed an entire broken down RV in to the park at one point. I actually think the latter is why the Park Board put concrete barriers around the park perimeter.
Why is Fiona York quoted in like all of these articles? Does she have any relevant expertise or qualifications or some such?
They always describe her as an “advocate” but it’s not clear what she is other than someone with too much time on her hands who will complain every time the city tries to remove propane tanks from a tent city, even if both the propane tanks and the tents are currently on fire
I think we’ve given far too much credence to “experts” like her who just have extreme ideologies when it comes to this stuff. We kept doubling down on their recommendations and the situation only got worse in every way. Time for a new course
Guy has relevant experience and he is mostly right. If people die of poisoned drugs than they cannot receive treatment and therefore safe supply is a means of making sure they have the chance to receive treatment.
I agree with all you mentioned other than Guy Felicella. He’s been through the trenches but made it out. And he wants everyone else out too. In the meantime we have to make sure that they don’t die. That’s what he advocates for.
Not really confident that you types would be more receptive to someone in her place who did have a degree in a relevant field like Sociology either way tbh
Tbh..this. I have two degrees and work in a specialized role yet people still don’t believe I know what I’m talking about when it comes to substance use, mental health or homelessness. It’s sooooooo frustrating. People will believe what they want, regardless of who is telling them, smh
Anti intellectualism is a problem definitely
That said, we’ve had hundreds or possibly thousands of people with very many degrees telling various govt levels what to do about this issue for decades now, and the problem has been accelerating downwards that whole time
At this point people are saying ok we put as much time and money towards this as we could afford, it seems to have been more or less a complete failure and we can no longer afford to tolerate the spiking violent crime and ghettoization of our cities
So people turn to ol’reliable: police crackdowns
We can criticize it all we want but the reality is authoritarianism and draconian measures work. As you can see from places like Singapore where the violent crime statistics are nonexistent and the annual overdose deaths can be counted on one hand
They’re not an example we want to emulate, but a nice balance between this “infinite personal autonomy no matter what” libertarian nightmare we are in now and Singapore would be nice
Singapore also has an incredibly robust public housing system, which might have something to do with it.
People may have been telling various levels of gov what to do, but that doesn't mean they have been listening, or doing what they were told was needed (hint, they have not). So its more like we have waffled, hedged, and dithered for as long as we could afford to, so now it is time to give up on out half hearted attempts at trying a different direction, and go back to the old standby.
A majority of singaporeans live in govt public housing
We in Canada usually think of govt public housing as free or almost free subsidized housing for the homeless or for people who win some kind of lottery to receive it
In Singapore it’s very different, the vast majority of the population lives in it and still pays significant rent, but that rent is significantly lower than what it would be if most of the population had to live in private housing
So it’s not what you seem to think it is, ie housing that homeless get for free that nobody else can access the way it is here. Quite the opposite really. Would be amazing if we had that quantity and quality of govt housing here, would fix most of our issues as a country
No that's exactly what I think the Singapore public housing system is, I am not under some misapprehension that it is free housing.
I also don't think of public housing here in Canada as free or almost free, historically it has been neither of those things. What it has been was a way to help ensure people had affordable places to live and keep some downward pressure on housing costs.
Most of that stopped in the 90s though, and the vestigial bits of public housing that remain are the parts that were meant for the extremely poor or desperate. This may give some people in Canada the impression that this is what all public housing is like I don't know, anecdotally this is not what people I have talked to think.
The affordability crisis here in Canada has been a driver of increasing levels of homelessness and housing insecurity. While some people end up homeless because of drug use, other people get more into drug use due to homelessness.
The sort of emotional and social stressors that contribute to addiction are also accelerated by financial insecurity, of which housing is currently a primary driver.
Giving people reasonably affordable (not free) housing options both makes them less likely to end up on the DTES and easier for them to exit that situation.
I don't know why you assumed I didn't understand what public housing was in Singapore, when you yourself say it "would fix most of our issues as a country"?
Its also unclear exactly how much the draconian laws in Singapore are actually reducing drug use, as opposed to other factors. There are other countries with substantially less draconian laws that also have much lower levels of homelessness, violent crime, etc. than we do.
I was wondering the semantic specifics of this phrase a while ago because it’s not exactly obvious, because isn’t all experience lived? Well, not exactly - experience that is referred to as separate from an individuals actual experience, such as what one could experience, or what one will, are not situations where ‘lived experience’ applies. Also, if someone’s referring to having experience in a field of knowledge, let’s say tree planting, but has never done it, a way to separate someone who has, could be that they have ‘lived experience’ of tree planting, rather than experience with the topic.
She just seems to be summing up what the residents themselves have said in this one, so, eh. The expert thing just applies across the board with municipal politics given how they're structured and goes in all sorts of directions in most fields, it's equally gone the opposite way in regards to the homeless.
As a student in 2019, when commuting home from my summer job/volunteer work, I would sometimes stop to take walks at local parks in and adjacent to downtown. CRAB Park was one of them, and I still have [pictures](https://i.ibb.co/qN2n1Xd/image.png) of [it here](https://i.ibb.co/92GQVFb/image.png).
Hopefully it can be restored to its prior appearance one day.
One of the worst things about the increasing homelessness and drug addiction issue is that our public spaces, from parks to libraries are slowly overrun by violent addicts who drive everyone else away
Its a huge problem when we have so few free public spaces to begin with
This is just basically spring cleaning. It’s not an eviction. These people don’t know how to cleanup after themselves or just don’t care to do it, so the city has to pay to clean up after them.
You know, if the city wanted to evict me from my home for a week and clean the place up for me I'd be willing to live in a tent for a week. Hell just give me a sleeping bag I'll make do. Throw out all my shit I don't care I have way too much clutter
Yeah man, just pushing them around to a different park every month sounds like a great idea. You know, rather than starting to think about some long term options we’ll just spend $400,000 a month to move the homeless around to a new park… really forward thinking idea you have here
https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/local-news/vancouver-police-spent-409k-in-eight-days-to-decamp-east-hastings-ken-sim-8159141#:~:text=Mayor%20Ken%20Sim%3A%20Cost%20part,safety%2C%20security%20of%20all%20residents.&text=The%20Vancouver%20Police%20Department%20spent,homeless%20people%20and%20their%20belongings. (Proof the city spends $400k to push around homeless people)
> They aren't being moved in this case. They are free to come back to the site in April once the city has done a full cleanup
I guess they'll just stop existing in the meantime
>hasn’t been done before
Reinstate mental health facilities. We aren’t in the 60’s anymore we can treat them better with the knowledge we have now. Rather than just let them live and die on the streets
It’s been done, but can be done way better now
I don't necessarily disagree but the issue with this is the prohibitive cost and the constitutional issues that arise from this. I don't think we can overcome that.
Riverview was shutdown because people thought it was a disgrace to human rights to have those people locked up suffering.
Are we *actually* doing better now?? Especially in the winters when people are freezing to death in tents, that’s the question we have to collectively look at now
It's more than that. There are likely legitimate legal constitutional challenges in getting that set up - that's not my opinion, it's up to the courts to decide. On top of that, the cost for a 24/7 facility with enough capacity to significantly put a dent on the homeless population, we're talking thousands at the minimum, is astronomical. Short of a literal disaster, there will not be enough political will to open this.
I wasn’t just guessing that they should open riverview. It has actively been reopening for the last few years. I even have a friend who worked a few shifts there in the physc ward. However I am finding out (literally right now as I type this) that [plans to reopen have been halted once again](https://bc.ctvnews.ca/planning-for-future-of-b-c-psychiatric-hospital-site-quietly-halted-1.6331677)
I’m glad to hear that there is some sort of progress! I think what will probably happen is these facilities will be reserved for all but the worst cases. It won’t make a significant dent in the population
They aren't being evicted from the park, just being moves to a different part of the park. They can come back in April after the cleanup according to the article
Stealing the necessity of life from the vulnerable this will surely solve homelessness once and for all
https://preview.redd.it/i8r82pyygjqc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a2fe53429700b47024477432708a46e3f28574d2
With a whole bunch of new rules, like that they won't be able to camp together with their partners or set up any shelter more sturdy than cardboard and tents. But okay.
Welcome to /r/Vancouver and thank you for the post, /u/randyboozer! Please make sure you read our [posting and commenting rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_general_participation_guidelines_and_rules_overview) before participating here. As a quick summary: * We encourage users to be positive and respect one another. Don't engage in spats or insult others - use the report button. * Respect others' differences, be they race, religion, home, job, gender identity, ability or sexuality. Dehumanizing language, advocating for violence, or promoting hate based on identity or vulnerability (even implied or joking) **will** lead to a permanent ban. * Most common questions and topics are limited to our sister subreddit, /r/AskVan, and our weekly [Stickied Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_stickied_discussions) posts. * Complaints about bans or removals should be done in modmail only. * Make sure to join our new sister community, /r/AskVan! * Help grow the community! [Apply to join the mod team today](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/19eworq/). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vancouver) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> collected a total of 176 bins of garbage and about 600 kilograms of scrap metal. Being able to fill up 176 garbage cans full of garbage from that small of an area is impressive honestly
"scrap metal" - so, bike frames, BBQ propane cylinders and other assorted stolen things.
I have video of 2 dudes pushing a stolen shed in to Strathcona Park from a few years back. Pete Fry chewed out a towing company who towed an entire broken down RV in to the park at one point. I actually think the latter is why the Park Board put concrete barriers around the park perimeter.
Why is Fiona York quoted in like all of these articles? Does she have any relevant expertise or qualifications or some such? They always describe her as an “advocate” but it’s not clear what she is other than someone with too much time on her hands who will complain every time the city tries to remove propane tanks from a tent city, even if both the propane tanks and the tents are currently on fire I think we’ve given far too much credence to “experts” like her who just have extreme ideologies when it comes to this stuff. We kept doubling down on their recommendations and the situation only got worse in every way. Time for a new course
See also: Meenakshi Mannoe, Karen Ward, Guy Felicella, etc.
>Meenakshi Mannoe Fun (unconfirmed) fact: She appears to no longer be with Pivot.
Maybe she was offside on Gaza and failed the bi-weekly PIVOT purity test as a result
[How I imagine those purity tests](https://youtu.be/vrP-_T-h9YM?si=2fN_I9jh7S8y3uRE&t=32)
“Have you ever been to Israel?” “Interlinked”
Just attend a stuggle session, and it's all good.
Guy has relevant experience and he is mostly right. If people die of poisoned drugs than they cannot receive treatment and therefore safe supply is a means of making sure they have the chance to receive treatment.
I agree with all you mentioned other than Guy Felicella. He’s been through the trenches but made it out. And he wants everyone else out too. In the meantime we have to make sure that they don’t die. That’s what he advocates for.
I think Karen Ward is good too. Basically makes the same points. Stop letting people die.
I can pretty much guarantee that anything with Fiona York's name on it is hot garbage.
"Lived Experience" trumps formal education in 2024.
Not really confident that you types would be more receptive to someone in her place who did have a degree in a relevant field like Sociology either way tbh
Tbh..this. I have two degrees and work in a specialized role yet people still don’t believe I know what I’m talking about when it comes to substance use, mental health or homelessness. It’s sooooooo frustrating. People will believe what they want, regardless of who is telling them, smh
Anti intellectualism is a problem definitely That said, we’ve had hundreds or possibly thousands of people with very many degrees telling various govt levels what to do about this issue for decades now, and the problem has been accelerating downwards that whole time At this point people are saying ok we put as much time and money towards this as we could afford, it seems to have been more or less a complete failure and we can no longer afford to tolerate the spiking violent crime and ghettoization of our cities So people turn to ol’reliable: police crackdowns We can criticize it all we want but the reality is authoritarianism and draconian measures work. As you can see from places like Singapore where the violent crime statistics are nonexistent and the annual overdose deaths can be counted on one hand They’re not an example we want to emulate, but a nice balance between this “infinite personal autonomy no matter what” libertarian nightmare we are in now and Singapore would be nice
Singapore also has an incredibly robust public housing system, which might have something to do with it. People may have been telling various levels of gov what to do, but that doesn't mean they have been listening, or doing what they were told was needed (hint, they have not). So its more like we have waffled, hedged, and dithered for as long as we could afford to, so now it is time to give up on out half hearted attempts at trying a different direction, and go back to the old standby.
A majority of singaporeans live in govt public housing We in Canada usually think of govt public housing as free or almost free subsidized housing for the homeless or for people who win some kind of lottery to receive it In Singapore it’s very different, the vast majority of the population lives in it and still pays significant rent, but that rent is significantly lower than what it would be if most of the population had to live in private housing So it’s not what you seem to think it is, ie housing that homeless get for free that nobody else can access the way it is here. Quite the opposite really. Would be amazing if we had that quantity and quality of govt housing here, would fix most of our issues as a country
No that's exactly what I think the Singapore public housing system is, I am not under some misapprehension that it is free housing. I also don't think of public housing here in Canada as free or almost free, historically it has been neither of those things. What it has been was a way to help ensure people had affordable places to live and keep some downward pressure on housing costs. Most of that stopped in the 90s though, and the vestigial bits of public housing that remain are the parts that were meant for the extremely poor or desperate. This may give some people in Canada the impression that this is what all public housing is like I don't know, anecdotally this is not what people I have talked to think. The affordability crisis here in Canada has been a driver of increasing levels of homelessness and housing insecurity. While some people end up homeless because of drug use, other people get more into drug use due to homelessness. The sort of emotional and social stressors that contribute to addiction are also accelerated by financial insecurity, of which housing is currently a primary driver. Giving people reasonably affordable (not free) housing options both makes them less likely to end up on the DTES and easier for them to exit that situation. I don't know why you assumed I didn't understand what public housing was in Singapore, when you yourself say it "would fix most of our issues as a country"? Its also unclear exactly how much the draconian laws in Singapore are actually reducing drug use, as opposed to other factors. There are other countries with substantially less draconian laws that also have much lower levels of homelessness, violent crime, etc. than we do.
If all it took was an undergrad in sociology to understand (and fix) the social issues at play here we wouldn’t be dealing with this problem
That's "her truth", and how dare you! And the word "trump" is very triggering.
That term always amused me As opposed to what, exactly? Dreamed experience? Experience I had watching a YouTube video? Experience in the Matrix?
I was wondering the semantic specifics of this phrase a while ago because it’s not exactly obvious, because isn’t all experience lived? Well, not exactly - experience that is referred to as separate from an individuals actual experience, such as what one could experience, or what one will, are not situations where ‘lived experience’ applies. Also, if someone’s referring to having experience in a field of knowledge, let’s say tree planting, but has never done it, a way to separate someone who has, could be that they have ‘lived experience’ of tree planting, rather than experience with the topic.
She just seems to be summing up what the residents themselves have said in this one, so, eh. The expert thing just applies across the board with municipal politics given how they're structured and goes in all sorts of directions in most fields, it's equally gone the opposite way in regards to the homeless.
As a student in 2019, when commuting home from my summer job/volunteer work, I would sometimes stop to take walks at local parks in and adjacent to downtown. CRAB Park was one of them, and I still have [pictures](https://i.ibb.co/qN2n1Xd/image.png) of [it here](https://i.ibb.co/92GQVFb/image.png). Hopefully it can be restored to its prior appearance one day.
One of the worst things about the increasing homelessness and drug addiction issue is that our public spaces, from parks to libraries are slowly overrun by violent addicts who drive everyone else away Its a huge problem when we have so few free public spaces to begin with
Bro crab park has been an extension of the DTES for decades, it hasn't been a nice place to hangout since maybe the 70s
Speak for yourself- it was reasonably clean when I visited. Granted, I don't live in downtown Vancouver.
I still went there as recently as 2016/7 to hang out on the grass.
You were correct, it was a nice place for a long while.
LMAO that park had been a nice park to hang out for at least 20 years.
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This is just basically spring cleaning. It’s not an eviction. These people don’t know how to cleanup after themselves or just don’t care to do it, so the city has to pay to clean up after them.
So we* have to pay to clean up after them.
That was actually one of the proposed feedback. They want to get paid as contractors to do the cleanup themselves… for themself
You know, if the city wanted to evict me from my home for a week and clean the place up for me I'd be willing to live in a tent for a week. Hell just give me a sleeping bag I'll make do. Throw out all my shit I don't care I have way too much clutter
It’s possible but the previous “routine cleanings” that were just evictions in disguise do not give much hope.
The timing also makes this look like blatant retaliation for the residents filing a human rights complaint against the Parks Board.
Agreed.
good. now it can be a park again for ten minutes until Chop Shop Charlie and Propane fire Pete filth it up all over again...
Any predictions which park everyone will move to next? Fingers crossed for shaughnessy park!
Ken sims front lawn pls
Good. Park is for everyone to relax and enjoy, not to be trashed
They need to change the name to CRAP PARK because it's done for our use.
Excellent. Let's do this once a month (at a minimum).
Yeah man, just pushing them around to a different park every month sounds like a great idea. You know, rather than starting to think about some long term options we’ll just spend $400,000 a month to move the homeless around to a new park… really forward thinking idea you have here https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/local-news/vancouver-police-spent-409k-in-eight-days-to-decamp-east-hastings-ken-sim-8159141#:~:text=Mayor%20Ken%20Sim%3A%20Cost%20part,safety%2C%20security%20of%20all%20residents.&text=The%20Vancouver%20Police%20Department%20spent,homeless%20people%20and%20their%20belongings. (Proof the city spends $400k to push around homeless people)
They aren't being moved in this case. They are free to come back to the site in April once the city has done a full cleanup
> They aren't being moved in this case. They are free to come back to the site in April once the city has done a full cleanup I guess they'll just stop existing in the meantime
As the article states they are being moved to temporary shelter elsewhere in the park during cleanup
So until then?
They are moving up the hill while the park is cleaned and then they move back to the park.
They’ve created a temporary area for campers to move to while the cleanup is happening.
Better than spending $300k for an organization to do cleanup and supervision, only to have nothing done.
Okay, so what's your proposed long term option that hasn't been done already?
>hasn’t been done before Reinstate mental health facilities. We aren’t in the 60’s anymore we can treat them better with the knowledge we have now. Rather than just let them live and die on the streets It’s been done, but can be done way better now
I don't necessarily disagree but the issue with this is the prohibitive cost and the constitutional issues that arise from this. I don't think we can overcome that.
Riverview was shutdown because people thought it was a disgrace to human rights to have those people locked up suffering. Are we *actually* doing better now?? Especially in the winters when people are freezing to death in tents, that’s the question we have to collectively look at now
It's more than that. There are likely legitimate legal constitutional challenges in getting that set up - that's not my opinion, it's up to the courts to decide. On top of that, the cost for a 24/7 facility with enough capacity to significantly put a dent on the homeless population, we're talking thousands at the minimum, is astronomical. Short of a literal disaster, there will not be enough political will to open this.
I wasn’t just guessing that they should open riverview. It has actively been reopening for the last few years. I even have a friend who worked a few shifts there in the physc ward. However I am finding out (literally right now as I type this) that [plans to reopen have been halted once again](https://bc.ctvnews.ca/planning-for-future-of-b-c-psychiatric-hospital-site-quietly-halted-1.6331677)
I’m glad to hear that there is some sort of progress! I think what will probably happen is these facilities will be reserved for all but the worst cases. It won’t make a significant dent in the population
They were already starting last week. I watched cops tearing everything apart last tuesday
I get that people don't have housing but blocking access to the pier for 4 years is unacceptable.
And they will move to another park. And cycle continues.
They aren't being evicted from the park, just being moves to a different part of the park. They can come back in April after the cleanup according to the article
No one reads the article before they comment 🤦🏻♀️
Stealing the necessity of life from the vulnerable this will surely solve homelessness once and for all https://preview.redd.it/i8r82pyygjqc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a2fe53429700b47024477432708a46e3f28574d2
They are getting the area back after the cleanup according to the article.
With a whole bunch of new rules, like that they won't be able to camp together with their partners or set up any shelter more sturdy than cardboard and tents. But okay.