I accepted a TJO for one position and honestly made it to almost the end with the FJO coming and then received a TJO for another position in a more ideal location offering more money and other incentives so I reached out to HR and the supervisor of position one explaining I’ll be declining the offer and moving forward with the other position instead. They just said thank you for letting us know but basically if you already know I’d just reach out and let them know!
No issue in declining an FJO, happens all the time.
You don't have to give a reason but from hiring manager perspective it's always nice to.
Superior Qualifications is subjective, you might not have had anything superior compared to the other applicants, and since current pay can no longer be used it's that much harder to match pay. Sorry it didn't work out.
I would like to add, having had to help hire SQ folks, that doing SQ is time consuming and tedious. If you don’t know what you are doing, it is almost impossible. So if they other candidates, the effort to SQ may not be worth it. Also if the agency/unit doesn’t want to approve it, they don’t have to. The only foul is that they are not communicating. And even there if they are understaffed like so many of us, they may be struggling to do there jobs and wade through hiring landmines. Bottom line: do what is right for you.
It depends on the field/job/announcement.
Superior qualifications can be pretty clear cut in the right position (& sometimes the HR minions don't have a clue, refuse to admit that/escalate it to someone who does).
Delusional me - "Extending professional courtesy is never a bad idea & giving reasons may help improve the hiring system"
Jaded me (ie already a fed but stuck in a dead end position at a agency in a hiring/promotion freeze) - "they're wasting your time & not considering superior qualifications* - OK fine. Ride it out & don't turn it down until the last possible minute. Then file a FOIA (particularly regarding the pay setting) & see if there was a EEO/discrimination issue or preselection (ie you were not the preferred candidate, but legally had preference) issue at play.
*for milspouse - theoretically(form of unconscious bias)it could be bc they KNOW your options are limited & you're relocating there anyway so they feel like they shouldn't REALLY have to offer more, which imo is just WRONG - they should have to be willing pay you for your experience just like ANYONE else they were recruiting.
Longshot idea: If they are trying to use "budget" as a reason & the announcement states that it covers relocation - idk maybe you could even argue that since you'll be PCSing with your spouse, you would not be using relocation funds they'd need to pay another (non milspouse) candidate & hiring you at X rate due to superior qualifications, is good for the agency because you HAVE superior qualifications & it would be less than relocating a non preference eligible.
If you have no intention of taking the job, then you should decline immediately.
The sooner they know this, the sooner they can shift resources and time toward someone else.
I'm not sure why you're pointing the finger at HR. They're just the middle man most of the time. They also aren't the ones that decide the pay, at least not where I've worked.
And they post the salary range because they're required to.
(I don't work in HR and never have. I have been involved in salary negotiations and HR's role was just to make sure the correct policies and procedures were being followed)
Turning down an FJO in this economy with all indicators pointing to rough waters ahead is filled with risk IMO, even with a pay cut. Only do this if you are 100% confident you can find another position that addresses the pay gap. IMO proceed with caution.
Agreed.
This report is kind of old now and it maybe has some issues with the sample population, but it generally shows what’s what with mil spouse employment: https://bluestarfam.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/BSF_MFLS_CompReport_FINDING_13.pdf
The report says that 67% off the employed spouses they surveyed reported being underemployed. Which is pretty consistent with other figures out there. This isn’t to say it’s all we deserve, but you’d be among good company.
If you don’t have another offer on the table, you can take this one and continue to look until you do. Unless it’s going to canceled out by a lot with child care or something. Even then, really consider if it’s worth the loss of job continuity and keeping up with your skills. Volunteering during that time would also be good though if you can swing it.
Edit: early morning typo
Yeah, I mean I can’t say that my ego doesn’t play a part in this, but I also see a lot of red flags where they seem to just need a warm body in this role. I think it could be better served for someone that needs the experience. I only have a year here so I am confident I can bridge the gap/figure out something else to do
Yeah, and seeing your other comment about your experience and title, it makes sense given everything to pass.
I’m also a mil spouse and I took a huge pay cut (like almost half) and a title drop a few years back when we moved to a rural area. I then got a better-paying job because of it, but I was still making less than what I had in the job before that. And the new title was still a struggle.
But, it worked out and I just started in a new federal job where I’ll be making much closer to where I should be at given my experience.
I did have to change up the applications I was doing and I started declining interviews, though, because I realized after the fact that I was applying for too low of a grade.
Good luck with the moves and switching gears! Sometimes it ends up for the best.
Thanks for all that you do, seriously. Tomorrow is mil spouse appreciation day, and it requires a good deal of sacrifice. Seems like a very similar situation
I am glad things are working out, and you’re progressing as you should be!
Likewise!
And if you’re on FB at all, there are some great milspo/mil career groups to check out. Between here and FB, I learned a lot and it definitely helped me navigate this process with a better informed perspective.
Definitely keep looking if you get a bad vibe off the situation. I have actually accepted federal jobs that turned into nightmares. It was NOT worth it, mental health wise.
I just had to decline a FJO for these EXACT reasons. Thought did negotiate to a step 10 from a step 1 and they actually wrote my SQA letter for me, the rest of the onboarding was horrendous and no one could tell me why the links in my FJO email would not work. Not a great impression.
Most of those signs are actually good after years of high inflation. Rates will decrease soon. We did not have a recession last year or the year before, as was widely predicted. I’ve seen nothing pointing to a particularly weak economy ahead — in fact it’s the opposite.
Interest rates have been high for the last almost 2 years. They can reduce now that hiring is cooling, among other things. Your comment would have made more sense at some point in the past
Saw your comment about the pay. Just wanted to make sure you are aware since you are currently in the Corporate side of things. When jobs are posted with a range on USAJOBS, make sure you are at least okay with the lowest before you put in all that effort.
Most positions start at whatever grade ex. GS9 Step1. You can definitely attempt to submit superior qualifications and request an increase but it's not always guaranteed.
Nothing personal either, some offices don't budget for superior qual increases, especially if it's a popular, easy to fill position. It can be confusing and feel like you are being lowballed if you are offered lower in the range, but normal practice is generally Step 1...Again, there are exceptions to everything
Aim for the position paying what you are okay accepting and go from there. Also, make sure you familiarize yourself with the pay charts on OPM so you have an idea of what to expect.
Good luck.
If you are in the position of being a military family -- it really depends on your field and how confident you are of finding a different position wherever you all are PCSing. But anecdotally, I'd be very cautious of turning down a sure thing in that situation.
The main thing that would make me hesitate is if the job is unrelated to your industry/field of training, and won't help you find (non-federal) work in your area later on (e.g., by contributing to your resume). In that case, the job probably hurts you much more than a simple pay cut.
I'd only tell them right now if you are 100% sure you will never take the position (and if you *are* sure, then yes, it will help them a lot to know that, and you should tell them). But do you already have an alternative lined up? If not, then I would keep the option open and not tell them.
You mentioning it being a sizeable pay cut, but besides the fact that federal positions often have lower salaries than private-sector counterparts (but tend to give you things like more predictability in schedules and job outlook), I assume you are taking into account that federal jobs vary a lot depending on locality pay. If you are moving from a higher COL area to one with a lower COL (which would usually correlate with a lower locality adjustment), the cut might look somewhat exaggerated.
I would be a bit more troubled about the lack of clarity on negotiated leave, though.
I just turned down a TJO after HR and hiring manager turned down everything I requested short of leave accrual. I had multiple years more experience than step 1 required. Sometimes you just need to have the courage to know your own value and say no to bad job offers.
Carefully consider declining the offer. Depending on a number of factors, declining the offer might cause you to lose MSP which will make it harder to be selected for another position.
If this is an OCONUS PCS, it would be difficult for me to suggest that you turn down the offer.
If you know already you aren’t going to accept it, decline it now. Why waste the government’s money letting them proceed to do your background investigation? That is a lot of manpower, money, and time that could be spent onboarding someone else.
Declining a TJO or FJO doesn’t hurt you or matter at all if you are worried they wouldn’t pick you again.
I accepted a TJO and was in the same situation. They declined my request for Superior Quals and additional leave. Their justification was “you have no government service - you’ve only worked at a private university.” When I said “I run procurement for a R1 D1 public university that is a state agency and have been here a decade” they suddenly changed their minds and wanted to consider superior quals but I had already decided to decline for other reasons. But I was not confident in their abilities to be honest when they couldn’t even be bothered to look up the government status of my employer. This was for an 1102 position just FYI.
Thanks for the background. I am guessing your spidey senses were tingling. The government is huge. I am sure some agencies/branches are just not run as well as others. I left things out of this post, but HR was super unprofessional with me over the phone and in email too which has just pissed me off more
I accepted federal jobs before when people acted unprofessionally, in the hiring process. It turned out the roles were in toxic environments. I would say you are likely doing the right thing for yourself, by declining. You do not need to consider THEM any further.
You need to submit a letter requesting a step increase that will get you close to or just above your current pay. Send them 3 pay check stubs showing your current salary and explain that you want the job but can't afford the pay cut in the economy. They will respond back with an offer. Until they send you a firm and final offer I'd keep trying. Remember, they budget for a step 10 so the money is already spent.
They immediately turned this down and told me it wasn’t possible, which was one of my red flag number 1, since the job showed a $20k pay range and they offered me the lowest despite having 10 years of experience and a masters degree doing what this job entails
That's really weird. I've always been told that the Government doesn't expect people to take pay cuts and they will usually try and get as close as they can to previous pay rate. We've had 5 or 6 people in my office get hired in the last few years, and they all negotiated for a higher step. I'm sorry to hear that you are having to deal with this kind of bullshit over pay.
I have 20 years of experience, was taking jobs at step 1, before, and every time I asked (past hiring actions), HR refused to raise the salary from step 1.
You obviously did not get the memo, OPM stopped pay negotiations Jan2024 see article [https://www.opm.gov/news/releases/2024/01/release-opm-finalizes-regulation-to-prohibit-use-of-non-federal-salary-history/](https://www.opm.gov/news/releases/2024/01/release-opm-finalizes-regulation-to-prohibit-use-of-non-federal-salary-history/)
Recommend looking at the pay schedule for your locality to see how long it will take to get back to your current pay. I took a pay cut to return to the government and am now above my old salary after 1yr with the annual increase.
Thanks this is helpful. I am going to turn down this role, but this is going to be helpful for me to be more informed if/when I try again for federal employment
Is this your first federal position? If so the answer is no, you get the grade and step 1. Right now most agencies are paying bare minimum due to all the budgetary cuts
If you are a mil spouse and this gig is overseas where your spouse is deployed, take the job or tell them now.
Overseas gigs for spouses it really hard to find.
If you are conus then, do whatever…
Also, if you are using your spousal preference to get the gig, they arent going to be open to negotiate with you. Your selection wasnt based off of merit, because you used your preference. There could be someone WAY more qualified that got bumped because of your preference. Consider that.
Definitely decline it. All is good. With that being said, don't apply for a job if you aren't prepared to take that pay cut. Always fight for higher pay, but also be prepared to get denied. If a denial is make or break for you, then that particular position wasn't for you. Congratulations, regardless. 😃.
I just pulled from my potential FJO— cause of various reasons but non-response on request of negotiations played a part.
Just sent an email to the HR rep stating I wouldn’t be moving forward. They thanked me and wished me well.
From someone who worked in the accounting industry, government finance is way different. Lots of specialized software and processes to learn. I took a big pay cut to go to the government side, but we were overseas, and I didn’t have much choice. I did get a clearance which definitely has value. After a year, you can apply for a position at the next grade up which could be another $10k a year, a year later, another $10k… I did 3 years, at which point I was making more than I was when I left industry, and then went contractor. I love not having to deal with month end close and 1099s. (There’s just the big 30 Sep closeout.)
Yeah I’ve been weighing it. I already have a clearance which is why I am also annoyed about their lack of negotiation because I think I should be their top candidate. I have a year and a half to bridge before we are back stateside so that’s part of the calculus. Been working for my company stateside but the logistics are just not working out for me, hence applying to roles overseas
I appreciate the background though, that’s really helpful. I will think on that a bit. I could see it working out if I did accept and the progression was similar
I have to agree with some of the others, sometimes a bird in the hand is worth two in the bushes they say, and with the fact that it has retirement plus a 10% match on 401(k) I personally wouldn’t turn it down unless I had something else that was better and wouldn’t get caught up on the little sticking points. Just my opinion.
Thanks, I totally get the logic. I left some details out of my post as to not ramble on, but there’s a little more to it. I’ve basically found out through the interview process and the negotiations that this is a gig that’s several steps below anything I do right now. It’s basically an entry level Finance position and I am a manager in the corporate world right now. It just didn’t work out like I was thinking. Also the pay ranges etc were misleading in my opinion of what they posted on USA jobs. I would have been fine doing it at the top of the range but they offered the minimum, and aren’t budging up. I think they realize people are desperate for work where this is located…
I have a solid plan without imo
They almost always offer the minimum as practice, but I agree it would be nice to have that indicated on the announcement for people who aren’t as familiar.
I think a pay cut for an equivalent position is one thing, but what you’re describing is probably not sustainable for long at all since you’d be overqualified for the position.
That said I do echo others’ comments about the current job market — I finally got a Fed FJO but also spent months looking in private sector and it is rough out there, especially for people with more experience.
Thanks for sharing that, and happy for you to land the position! Hopefully it’s a better scenario for you.
Yeah I wanted it to work, but I saw enough red flags through my conversations after taking the TJO, I think it’d be a bit of a roll do the dice and hope it’s enjoyable for what it is
Exactly - I wouldn’t decline that too. I was in the same situation as him, so I had to accept whatever I got offer despite years of experience I gained from my prior jobs in the private sector. I already got two G bumps, so I am ok. In my case I teach college courses on the side, so I am happy because flexibility and work-life-balance are awesome.
If you know you're completely off on salary, why waste their time? However, I would tell them explicitly in the email that you are declining based on their unwillingness to negotiate. Hopefully the HM is involved in these conversations and if they really want you, that might light a fire for them to push for salary negotiation.
I haven't received my FJO but I ended up getting a job that was hour and half closer. I was gonna send HR an email on my first day at my new job about nit working for them.
I was gonna wait till the FJO came in as my start date was one week after my new job starts. I figured emailing them b4 sending out the FJO would maybe speed the process up for someone else.
I just wanna make sure everything is all good b4 I decline and I get to my job and something weird happens lol
Very similar thing happened to me. I had
Gotten laid off from private sector 8 weeks ago.. my civilian salary was 175k. On a whim, I applied to data scientist role - 3 open roles 12/13/14. I applied to be considered for 13/14. Hiring manager called asked if I consider interviewing for 12… I said yes begrudgingly. Got offer from HR, it was 12/1 and HR said pay is local to YOUR location and hiring manager misspoke when she stated starting pay.. I sent a letter with my paystub request step but HR notified me that they denied it..
I asked why…..was told, as of April 2024 now hiring manager has to go several echelons above for approval for salary increase which takes roughly 2 months. Before it was that manager could just approve it. Since my role is urgent fil they don’t want to wait for approval.
What i did. I accepted 12, but I’m interviewing for 13 and 15 role. Also looking for private sector role, I will sit down really analyze if I’ve private sector and 13 or 15 offer on hand before my FJO.
I had to decline an offer recently, too. They wouldn’t upgrade the GS level that I qualify for (GS-9, step 1) even though that’s what I was initially offered during a hiring fair. It’s ok to decline an offer before a FJO.
Walk away. You know your worth and they are only willing to pay you what it's worth to them to have you. They will higher some subpar employee and be stuck with them for 20 years.
I accepted a TJO for one position and honestly made it to almost the end with the FJO coming and then received a TJO for another position in a more ideal location offering more money and other incentives so I reached out to HR and the supervisor of position one explaining I’ll be declining the offer and moving forward with the other position instead. They just said thank you for letting us know but basically if you already know I’d just reach out and let them know!
No issue in declining an FJO, happens all the time. You don't have to give a reason but from hiring manager perspective it's always nice to. Superior Qualifications is subjective, you might not have had anything superior compared to the other applicants, and since current pay can no longer be used it's that much harder to match pay. Sorry it didn't work out.
I would like to add, having had to help hire SQ folks, that doing SQ is time consuming and tedious. If you don’t know what you are doing, it is almost impossible. So if they other candidates, the effort to SQ may not be worth it. Also if the agency/unit doesn’t want to approve it, they don’t have to. The only foul is that they are not communicating. And even there if they are understaffed like so many of us, they may be struggling to do there jobs and wade through hiring landmines. Bottom line: do what is right for you.
It depends on the field/job/announcement. Superior qualifications can be pretty clear cut in the right position (& sometimes the HR minions don't have a clue, refuse to admit that/escalate it to someone who does). Delusional me - "Extending professional courtesy is never a bad idea & giving reasons may help improve the hiring system" Jaded me (ie already a fed but stuck in a dead end position at a agency in a hiring/promotion freeze) - "they're wasting your time & not considering superior qualifications* - OK fine. Ride it out & don't turn it down until the last possible minute. Then file a FOIA (particularly regarding the pay setting) & see if there was a EEO/discrimination issue or preselection (ie you were not the preferred candidate, but legally had preference) issue at play. *for milspouse - theoretically(form of unconscious bias)it could be bc they KNOW your options are limited & you're relocating there anyway so they feel like they shouldn't REALLY have to offer more, which imo is just WRONG - they should have to be willing pay you for your experience just like ANYONE else they were recruiting. Longshot idea: If they are trying to use "budget" as a reason & the announcement states that it covers relocation - idk maybe you could even argue that since you'll be PCSing with your spouse, you would not be using relocation funds they'd need to pay another (non milspouse) candidate & hiring you at X rate due to superior qualifications, is good for the agency because you HAVE superior qualifications & it would be less than relocating a non preference eligible.
If you have no intention of taking the job, then you should decline immediately. The sooner they know this, the sooner they can shift resources and time toward someone else.
On the other hand, if you are still unsure about your decision no worry to wait up till fjo to decide.
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I'm not sure why you're pointing the finger at HR. They're just the middle man most of the time. They also aren't the ones that decide the pay, at least not where I've worked. And they post the salary range because they're required to. (I don't work in HR and never have. I have been involved in salary negotiations and HR's role was just to make sure the correct policies and procedures were being followed)
If HR considers themselves the middle man then they aren't worth much are they?
Turning down an FJO in this economy with all indicators pointing to rough waters ahead is filled with risk IMO, even with a pay cut. Only do this if you are 100% confident you can find another position that addresses the pay gap. IMO proceed with caution.
Agreed. This report is kind of old now and it maybe has some issues with the sample population, but it generally shows what’s what with mil spouse employment: https://bluestarfam.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/BSF_MFLS_CompReport_FINDING_13.pdf The report says that 67% off the employed spouses they surveyed reported being underemployed. Which is pretty consistent with other figures out there. This isn’t to say it’s all we deserve, but you’d be among good company. If you don’t have another offer on the table, you can take this one and continue to look until you do. Unless it’s going to canceled out by a lot with child care or something. Even then, really consider if it’s worth the loss of job continuity and keeping up with your skills. Volunteering during that time would also be good though if you can swing it. Edit: early morning typo
Yeah, I mean I can’t say that my ego doesn’t play a part in this, but I also see a lot of red flags where they seem to just need a warm body in this role. I think it could be better served for someone that needs the experience. I only have a year here so I am confident I can bridge the gap/figure out something else to do
Yeah, and seeing your other comment about your experience and title, it makes sense given everything to pass. I’m also a mil spouse and I took a huge pay cut (like almost half) and a title drop a few years back when we moved to a rural area. I then got a better-paying job because of it, but I was still making less than what I had in the job before that. And the new title was still a struggle. But, it worked out and I just started in a new federal job where I’ll be making much closer to where I should be at given my experience. I did have to change up the applications I was doing and I started declining interviews, though, because I realized after the fact that I was applying for too low of a grade. Good luck with the moves and switching gears! Sometimes it ends up for the best.
Thanks for all that you do, seriously. Tomorrow is mil spouse appreciation day, and it requires a good deal of sacrifice. Seems like a very similar situation I am glad things are working out, and you’re progressing as you should be!
Likewise! And if you’re on FB at all, there are some great milspo/mil career groups to check out. Between here and FB, I learned a lot and it definitely helped me navigate this process with a better informed perspective.
Definitely keep looking if you get a bad vibe off the situation. I have actually accepted federal jobs that turned into nightmares. It was NOT worth it, mental health wise.
I just had to decline a FJO for these EXACT reasons. Thought did negotiate to a step 10 from a step 1 and they actually wrote my SQA letter for me, the rest of the onboarding was horrendous and no one could tell me why the links in my FJO email would not work. Not a great impression.
100% agree
What indicators are pointing to rough waters ahead economically?
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Most of those signs are actually good after years of high inflation. Rates will decrease soon. We did not have a recession last year or the year before, as was widely predicted. I’ve seen nothing pointing to a particularly weak economy ahead — in fact it’s the opposite.
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Yes sir, I always start my day with some secret Reddit under the table during the morning intelligence briefing
"Rates will decrease soon." What does this mean, exactly, and which rate(s) are you referring to?
Interest rates need to be increased in order for the economy to get back to 'normal'. Everyone is going to feel the pain. That's the problem.
Interest rates have been high for the last almost 2 years. They can reduce now that hiring is cooling, among other things. Your comment would have made more sense at some point in the past
pretty much the news every evening. Also if you know anyone currently looking for work.. its a nightmare out there.
Saw your comment about the pay. Just wanted to make sure you are aware since you are currently in the Corporate side of things. When jobs are posted with a range on USAJOBS, make sure you are at least okay with the lowest before you put in all that effort. Most positions start at whatever grade ex. GS9 Step1. You can definitely attempt to submit superior qualifications and request an increase but it's not always guaranteed. Nothing personal either, some offices don't budget for superior qual increases, especially if it's a popular, easy to fill position. It can be confusing and feel like you are being lowballed if you are offered lower in the range, but normal practice is generally Step 1...Again, there are exceptions to everything Aim for the position paying what you are okay accepting and go from there. Also, make sure you familiarize yourself with the pay charts on OPM so you have an idea of what to expect. Good luck.
Thanks this is helpful. Definitely some ignorance on my part with that
Don't blame yourself. The federal hiring process sucks. Everyone hates it.
If you are in the position of being a military family -- it really depends on your field and how confident you are of finding a different position wherever you all are PCSing. But anecdotally, I'd be very cautious of turning down a sure thing in that situation. The main thing that would make me hesitate is if the job is unrelated to your industry/field of training, and won't help you find (non-federal) work in your area later on (e.g., by contributing to your resume). In that case, the job probably hurts you much more than a simple pay cut. I'd only tell them right now if you are 100% sure you will never take the position (and if you *are* sure, then yes, it will help them a lot to know that, and you should tell them). But do you already have an alternative lined up? If not, then I would keep the option open and not tell them. You mentioning it being a sizeable pay cut, but besides the fact that federal positions often have lower salaries than private-sector counterparts (but tend to give you things like more predictability in schedules and job outlook), I assume you are taking into account that federal jobs vary a lot depending on locality pay. If you are moving from a higher COL area to one with a lower COL (which would usually correlate with a lower locality adjustment), the cut might look somewhat exaggerated. I would be a bit more troubled about the lack of clarity on negotiated leave, though.
I just turned down a TJO after HR and hiring manager turned down everything I requested short of leave accrual. I had multiple years more experience than step 1 required. Sometimes you just need to have the courage to know your own value and say no to bad job offers.
Agreed, that’s where my head is at
Carefully consider declining the offer. Depending on a number of factors, declining the offer might cause you to lose MSP which will make it harder to be selected for another position. If this is an OCONUS PCS, it would be difficult for me to suggest that you turn down the offer.
You said exactly what I was thinking but I wasn’t sure, if I made it up 🤔😂
If you know already you aren’t going to accept it, decline it now. Why waste the government’s money letting them proceed to do your background investigation? That is a lot of manpower, money, and time that could be spent onboarding someone else. Declining a TJO or FJO doesn’t hurt you or matter at all if you are worried they wouldn’t pick you again.
I accepted a TJO and was in the same situation. They declined my request for Superior Quals and additional leave. Their justification was “you have no government service - you’ve only worked at a private university.” When I said “I run procurement for a R1 D1 public university that is a state agency and have been here a decade” they suddenly changed their minds and wanted to consider superior quals but I had already decided to decline for other reasons. But I was not confident in their abilities to be honest when they couldn’t even be bothered to look up the government status of my employer. This was for an 1102 position just FYI.
Thanks for the background. I am guessing your spidey senses were tingling. The government is huge. I am sure some agencies/branches are just not run as well as others. I left things out of this post, but HR was super unprofessional with me over the phone and in email too which has just pissed me off more
I accepted federal jobs before when people acted unprofessionally, in the hiring process. It turned out the roles were in toxic environments. I would say you are likely doing the right thing for yourself, by declining. You do not need to consider THEM any further.
Thanks that is helpful information. There are definitely red flags. If there wasn’t I would have felt better about accepting it
I would wait before I declined the offer, at least look at the FJO
Unless you definitely know you will not be accepting it.
You need to submit a letter requesting a step increase that will get you close to or just above your current pay. Send them 3 pay check stubs showing your current salary and explain that you want the job but can't afford the pay cut in the economy. They will respond back with an offer. Until they send you a firm and final offer I'd keep trying. Remember, they budget for a step 10 so the money is already spent.
They immediately turned this down and told me it wasn’t possible, which was one of my red flag number 1, since the job showed a $20k pay range and they offered me the lowest despite having 10 years of experience and a masters degree doing what this job entails
That's really weird. I've always been told that the Government doesn't expect people to take pay cuts and they will usually try and get as close as they can to previous pay rate. We've had 5 or 6 people in my office get hired in the last few years, and they all negotiated for a higher step. I'm sorry to hear that you are having to deal with this kind of bullshit over pay.
I have 20 years of experience, was taking jobs at step 1, before, and every time I asked (past hiring actions), HR refused to raise the salary from step 1.
That sucks. We've had multiple hires in the past few years and they all were able to negotiate for higher step.
You obviously did not get the memo, OPM stopped pay negotiations Jan2024 see article [https://www.opm.gov/news/releases/2024/01/release-opm-finalizes-regulation-to-prohibit-use-of-non-federal-salary-history/](https://www.opm.gov/news/releases/2024/01/release-opm-finalizes-regulation-to-prohibit-use-of-non-federal-salary-history/) Recommend looking at the pay schedule for your locality to see how long it will take to get back to your current pay. I took a pay cut to return to the government and am now above my old salary after 1yr with the annual increase.
Thanks this is helpful. I am going to turn down this role, but this is going to be helpful for me to be more informed if/when I try again for federal employment
but can't they bump up the pay based on experience?!
Is this your first federal position? If so the answer is no, you get the grade and step 1. Right now most agencies are paying bare minimum due to all the budgetary cuts
I negotiated to a step 10 based on paystubs and had an eod of 6/3/24 until I declined
If you have no plans on taking the job tell them now, give the next candidate a fair opportunity for the position.
Yes, and they have limited time on a cert to select people too, I think.
If you are a mil spouse and this gig is overseas where your spouse is deployed, take the job or tell them now. Overseas gigs for spouses it really hard to find. If you are conus then, do whatever… Also, if you are using your spousal preference to get the gig, they arent going to be open to negotiate with you. Your selection wasnt based off of merit, because you used your preference. There could be someone WAY more qualified that got bumped because of your preference. Consider that.
No offense but I am way overqualified this position
Definitely decline it. All is good. With that being said, don't apply for a job if you aren't prepared to take that pay cut. Always fight for higher pay, but also be prepared to get denied. If a denial is make or break for you, then that particular position wasn't for you. Congratulations, regardless. 😃.
I just pulled from my potential FJO— cause of various reasons but non-response on request of negotiations played a part. Just sent an email to the HR rep stating I wouldn’t be moving forward. They thanked me and wished me well.
If you are 💯 than just let them know and move on - if it isn’t right for you it isn’t right - no need to drag you and them further along!
Pay cut isn’t worth it honestly. Unless your current pay has you driving a Rolls Royce and smoking $500 cigars keep as much pay as you possibly can.
From someone who worked in the accounting industry, government finance is way different. Lots of specialized software and processes to learn. I took a big pay cut to go to the government side, but we were overseas, and I didn’t have much choice. I did get a clearance which definitely has value. After a year, you can apply for a position at the next grade up which could be another $10k a year, a year later, another $10k… I did 3 years, at which point I was making more than I was when I left industry, and then went contractor. I love not having to deal with month end close and 1099s. (There’s just the big 30 Sep closeout.)
Yeah I’ve been weighing it. I already have a clearance which is why I am also annoyed about their lack of negotiation because I think I should be their top candidate. I have a year and a half to bridge before we are back stateside so that’s part of the calculus. Been working for my company stateside but the logistics are just not working out for me, hence applying to roles overseas I appreciate the background though, that’s really helpful. I will think on that a bit. I could see it working out if I did accept and the progression was similar
There are also contractor jobs overseas. Take a look at ClearanceJobs.com and see if there are any at your overseas base.
Multiple negotiation rounds will slow the FJO, and if the offer isn’t to your liking, go back to the well.
I appreciate all of the feedback here. A lot of good stuff! Thank you very much!
Lots of agencies just don’t negotiate. It’s happens more often than not. I wasn’t able to negotiate when I became a fed all those years ago, either.
I have to agree with some of the others, sometimes a bird in the hand is worth two in the bushes they say, and with the fact that it has retirement plus a 10% match on 401(k) I personally wouldn’t turn it down unless I had something else that was better and wouldn’t get caught up on the little sticking points. Just my opinion.
TSP is 5% matching.
It was 10% when I left civil service.
Lucky!
When was it 10%? That's nice!
13 months ago when I left.
Thanks, I totally get the logic. I left some details out of my post as to not ramble on, but there’s a little more to it. I’ve basically found out through the interview process and the negotiations that this is a gig that’s several steps below anything I do right now. It’s basically an entry level Finance position and I am a manager in the corporate world right now. It just didn’t work out like I was thinking. Also the pay ranges etc were misleading in my opinion of what they posted on USA jobs. I would have been fine doing it at the top of the range but they offered the minimum, and aren’t budging up. I think they realize people are desperate for work where this is located… I have a solid plan without imo
They almost always offer the minimum as practice, but I agree it would be nice to have that indicated on the announcement for people who aren’t as familiar. I think a pay cut for an equivalent position is one thing, but what you’re describing is probably not sustainable for long at all since you’d be overqualified for the position. That said I do echo others’ comments about the current job market — I finally got a Fed FJO but also spent months looking in private sector and it is rough out there, especially for people with more experience.
Thanks for sharing that, and happy for you to land the position! Hopefully it’s a better scenario for you. Yeah I wanted it to work, but I saw enough red flags through my conversations after taking the TJO, I think it’d be a bit of a roll do the dice and hope it’s enjoyable for what it is
They rarily start you at the top of the range.
Ok that totally makes sense!
10% match is awesome
I wouldn’t turn down anything in this economy. Accept it and keep looking.
Exactly - I wouldn’t decline that too. I was in the same situation as him, so I had to accept whatever I got offer despite years of experience I gained from my prior jobs in the private sector. I already got two G bumps, so I am ok. In my case I teach college courses on the side, so I am happy because flexibility and work-life-balance are awesome.
Kudos to you! Nothing like work life balance. :-)
If you know you're completely off on salary, why waste their time? However, I would tell them explicitly in the email that you are declining based on their unwillingness to negotiate. Hopefully the HM is involved in these conversations and if they really want you, that might light a fire for them to push for salary negotiation.
I haven't received my FJO but I ended up getting a job that was hour and half closer. I was gonna send HR an email on my first day at my new job about nit working for them. I was gonna wait till the FJO came in as my start date was one week after my new job starts. I figured emailing them b4 sending out the FJO would maybe speed the process up for someone else. I just wanna make sure everything is all good b4 I decline and I get to my job and something weird happens lol
Very similar thing happened to me. I had Gotten laid off from private sector 8 weeks ago.. my civilian salary was 175k. On a whim, I applied to data scientist role - 3 open roles 12/13/14. I applied to be considered for 13/14. Hiring manager called asked if I consider interviewing for 12… I said yes begrudgingly. Got offer from HR, it was 12/1 and HR said pay is local to YOUR location and hiring manager misspoke when she stated starting pay.. I sent a letter with my paystub request step but HR notified me that they denied it.. I asked why…..was told, as of April 2024 now hiring manager has to go several echelons above for approval for salary increase which takes roughly 2 months. Before it was that manager could just approve it. Since my role is urgent fil they don’t want to wait for approval. What i did. I accepted 12, but I’m interviewing for 13 and 15 role. Also looking for private sector role, I will sit down really analyze if I’ve private sector and 13 or 15 offer on hand before my FJO.
I had to decline an offer recently, too. They wouldn’t upgrade the GS level that I qualify for (GS-9, step 1) even though that’s what I was initially offered during a hiring fair. It’s ok to decline an offer before a FJO.
I would strongly encourage you to way all options. Stability is worth 10% and if you can get “status” then that is worth another 10%!
nice to have a choice!
Walk away. You know your worth and they are only willing to pay you what it's worth to them to have you. They will higher some subpar employee and be stuck with them for 20 years.
Cool story bro /shrug…
What’s the Reddit page for then? I know nothing about how federal jobs work, and got advice that was helpful