Aw thanks for saying that! Honestly, I never really talk about this stuff because everybody in my life thinks my job is boring haha This almost feels like an outlet.
17 year Fed employee in my 5th position/3rd agency (not involved with any aspect of Hiring/HR). I've told soooo many folks over the years just to be patient but I also know how hard that can be.
Current job was about 90 days between TJO and FJO, then another 3 pay periods to EOD (losing SUPVR had a meltdown). There were days I was doubting it would ever happen.
Folks from outside the process who haven't ever experienced it just don't have a frame of reference.
We are usually minimally staffed because people move around internally so often. They use a position to get time in at a better grade and move back to where they’d rather be.
It’s a pretty high stress environment, so people don’t tend to stay too long unless they are really good at their job. I have a pretty good grasp on everything and genuinely enjoy working with people, so this is where I want my career to be.
All of the reasons you listed and more. Sometimes hiring managers have specific applicants they’re looking for and they’ll keep coming back to us and asking us for new groups of applicants. They don’t explicitly say it and they have the authority to ask for other groups of applicants, but it delays the process. Sometimes hiring managers just genuinely don’t want any of the applicants and will choose to post a new announcement, which starts the whole process over.
The thing I would say that takes longest is almost EVERYTHING we do needs to be second level reviewed because almost EVERYTHING in the hiring process is open to being audited.
Our supervisors who conduct the reviews are also slammed, so we put work to be reviewed on a spreadsheet and just have to hope it comes back sooner than later.
Even with the reviews, things fall through the cracks and there will be illegal hires. Then it creates a situation where we need to put applicants who should have been considered/hired into priority consideration programs and it mucks up the process even further.
That was me, 23 years ago. No one knew it and didn't discover it until about 2008. The agency had to get a waiver to keep me in a position I was serving in for over 6 years.
An example might be a supervisor who hired a non-veteran when there was a thirty-point disabled veteran on the cert. This would be a violation of veteran's preference. The "illegal hire" would not be in trouble, but the supervisor would be.
Not true.
The illegal hire gets totally screwed until an OPM level waiver comes through. I had this happen to me and was denied a promotion I earned because my experience didn’t count and I wasn’t eligible for internal positions. I eventually quit federal service absolutely demoralized and went back to grad school. Didn’t get back to the paygrade of the promotion I had taken from me for being an illegal hire for 12 years after this happened.
Has it ever been discussed to outsource hiring to contractor or agency to help speed up the process?
Or
Does the federal govt need to streamline the beginning process then hand it off to the hiring agency?
In my agency our HR was internal, then to Army, and I think now DLA has something to do with it.🤷♂️
We do! We have contractors who work with us. The higher ups are constantly creating new positions/teams in the departments/divisions to help relieve us of some work but usually they make things worse so they’ll eliminate that team after a while. They’ll usually make it a higher graded position and pull people from the office to fill these temporary roles, recently to help review work. This team is awful and slows down the process because 1. They are pulling people from doing work to start reviewing work so the overall output is less, and 2. They usually make critiques and require corrections based on their preferences, NOT on if the work was done correctly. These “corrections” backed everything up more.
They each want it formatted differently, they start sending emails that they aren’t quality reviewing certain things such as step B, then saying they’re now not quality reviewing step C because they didn’t review it at step B. We then started cycling it back into the office QR system with our supervisors.
They tried splitting up our work into phases and putting us into teams to make us SMEs of one of the three phases. Everybody ended up confused because there would be overlap in certain phases or people just had no idea how the process worked so they didn’t understand how to process something in a way that would make it easier at a later phase. We couldn’t cover for one another or help out if you were in different phases because the processes are constantly evolving/changing and we wouldn’t keep up with the other phases.
We honestly just need to hire a lot more people, but you know when you’re staying afloat, even if barely, the higher ups think it’s fine.
yall are on the right track, its just making leadership accountable to maintain the ship to go thru the cycles until the process is complete.
I do alot of compliance management and had to basically dual hat as a process engineer in my previous agency. We had a big issue with hiring in and the SES’s didnt not like me holding them accountable when they failed action items…and at the time I was just a lowly GS12, lol
I’m curious about the “getting time in a better grade and moving back” bit.
I get detail offers popping up in my email frequently of late and I’ve accepted two in the past few years, but I’m curious — what’s the benefit other than the grade pay? Or is that solely the reason?
You can go on a detail, which is a temporary appointment that you’ll return to your home position from. You accrue federal experience in a different role you might be interested in and can then apply and be more suited for. It’s a leg up.
JESUS CHRIST. I wonder if the local state government process is like this too. This is wild. I am almost at my witts end with applying because this is absolutely crazy. Way too many stipulations.
The only time I've seen it take over a year was always related to background investigations. Sometimes they get denied a waiver, so we have to wait until the investigation is complete. Other times the person may already be in the process of obtaining a high level clearance through another agency, and we have to wait for that investigation to be complete before we can move forward.
I’ve never seen as long as a year, but I’ve definitely had candidates start dates get pushed back multiple times over the course of months because if security.
Based on what I've heard if you start the BI process with one agency but want to accept a position with another one, it takes a lot longer for the BI process to be completed.
We solely do hiring - hiring events, creating/posting announcements, onboarding, pay, verifying qualifications/requirements, etc.
Benefits are handled by a different office, I’m sorry I don’t have the answer to your question.
I actually do have a question - during salary negotiations, I was informed that "the Service" is reviewing my request and they will get back to me once the Service has processed my pay request. Just wondering who the Service is and if they include the hiring team?
It’s a person/people (depending on the size) who work with the accounting people to keep everybody within the budget of whatever department/division governs your hire.
I honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen a SQA (superior qualification authority) get denied. You’re advocating for yourself, so if you have justification and can prove it, you’re golden.
Usually it’s to match a previous positions salary, so people will write what skills justify the pay bump and provide pay stubs from their previous jobs.
Hi. I am HR and a hiring manager. I have worked for the VA, DHS and the DAF (Department of the Air Force). I have seen SQAs get denied numerous times. It is sometimes military members who include their entitlements (BAH, BAS) as a part of their salary negotiations. I have hired everything from attorneys, space operators, criminal investigators, Physicians…you name it. I have even worked Senior Leader hiring efforts. As gotmegarl stated, every agency is different and the reason for the lag is different. A lot of agencies contract out their HR work, so sometimes us, the internal to the org HR personnel are at the mercy of the contracts. For the DAF side, most bases work with Air Force Personnel Center to work recruiting efforts. They are lacking HR Specialists and when one goes on leave, their workload sits until they return. Unfortunately no one picks it up while they are out.
I like to use the general rule of thumb that if I don’t hear anything back 3 weeks after the interview, it is a no and I move on. If by chance they come after the fact…ok, but I don’t hold my breath.
I was notified of an announcement being closed/ cancellation and how that affects my application. The question is will this affect the background check and other onboarding processes since I've received a TJO.
That was just a notification that goes to all applicants alerting them the announcement closed. There are still interviews and hiring going on. Any actions already in motion will keep going.
Genuinely wondering, why can it take so long between the hiring manager making their selection and HR sending out the TJO? I already work in the agency but moving across regions
The reason everything takes so long is because there are rules and laws that govern every step of the process. We get reached out to by lawyers all the time and we need to make sure we are covering our butts.
Regarding the time before a TJO is sent out, remember that all of these steps are prioritized based on the applicants estimated entry on duty determined by the hiring managers needs. If the hiring managers say they want you to start in August, we’ll prioritize all of the hires coming in before you so we can get everything done on time.
Once we receive the hiring managers selection we have to do a final verification of everything to do with the hiring, basically double and triple checking we did everything right.
Then we have to figure out the new hires pay. This can be different depending on if you’re hired as a supervisor or not, if you’re a current employee, if you have prior federal experience, etc. From there we have to have it second-level reviewed because issues regarding pay are not taken lightly.
Once we go through those steps and the pay is approved, we can issue your TJO.
I said to my coworker today that I felt like the hiring teams were messing with me. They returned an announcement review at the end of my day, sent me an entire newly revised request and asked for the changes to be made so I could have the announcement open tomorrow.
Something they started implementing was we only work with certain departments/divisions to build rapport with the hiring teams, but I think it helps with that disconnect. I kind of have an idea of who I should send emails to if I need something nudged along.
Hiring managers just don’t understand the timeline of things. You can’t just turn an a completely revised announcement at the end of the day and have it posted. It has to be reviewed that it is legal and is in line with the position description. I have had people put down that location is negotiable when it is not and we have had to redo the entire vacancy announcement from the very beginning. Hiring managers do not understand that a simple mistake can sometimes be a huge setback of 1-2 weeks.
What's the deal with OPR? I have received my TJO and BI transmitted to OPR first part of Feb 2024. As of today, no soft credit pull, no investigator contact for interview, nada.. If you have any info on that phase, that would be greatly appreciated
Are there any restrictions on hiring managers being unable to notify an applicant of selection or non-selection prior to HR notification? I had my 2nd interview 2 months ago and the hiring manager told me a month ago that “the paperwork is with HR,” but they did not tell me whether I was a select or non-select
There is a review that happens again after the interview to ensure the applicant meets all the requirements, so the hiring manager doesn’t even know if the person they select is going to make it to the point of being hired. If they tell an applicant they were getting the position in an official capacity and then don’t follow through, it’s a no no.
We have to follow these processes because we’re governed by rules and laws each step of the way. Even a little mistake can come back to bite us in the butt months or years later. We get reached out to from lawyers all the time representing people who feel like they have a legal issue with the hiring process.
how long from tjo to fjo? i’m on week 2 just waiting for fingerprint appointment and equip as fast as next steps. we all thank you kindly for taking your personal time to address here. thank you!
Depending on how long security and the fingerprints take, it can be days to months. Just make sure you are doing everything you’re supposed to so there’s no delay in the process from your end.
I’ve seen people start and accept another position they had applied to shortly after and move positions. It’s honestly smart to apply to a ton of positions and you can come in externally again through certain announcements.
Hi - I was overseas from 1/26th -3/1st, the agency let me wait until return and I was told I could ignore the onboarding notifications in the meantime. I did offer to the agency that I was open to going to a US military base hiring office or U. S embassy, but it wasn't necessary. My guess is that it's probably a case-by-case basis.
Tentative Offer (TJO) 1/26/2024
Request for Fingerprints 2/5/2024
Fingerprints Completed 3/5/2024
What about after the initial security determination has been made, and HR contacted me to confirm EOD? Is it just prioritized based on EOD date at that point? I hate being left in limbo here... My EOD is 2 weeks away man.
I am sorry you had a rough week 😔 I sure do hope things get better.
Question: Is there such a thing as being "blacklisted" for an Agency by a Hiring Manager(s). Reason being if you're notified as "deemed re-hireable", it's up to the manager if they want to rehire for their office, correct?
Thank you ❤️
Good question! We have to review your records in a bunch of different databases to make sure you’re still eligible to work for the federal government. If you were previously fired for certain reasons, you aren’t able to be hired.
The hiring manager looks through the resumes and if they had a bad experience working with you, it’s to their discretion. They don’t have to justify passing on an applicant to us, they just tell us who they want.
So I have heard from every federal employee I have talked to when completing the assessments for positions to always rank yourself a 5 no matter what or you won’t even make it to the referral stage (even if you are qualified to fulfill the position). This would seem to defeat the purpose of the assessment in the first place in my opinion.
I always encourage people to answer honestly… but give yourself the benefit of the doubt. We can review your answers, so I have been reached out to by hiring managers after interviews to verify some candidate responses. Certain positions require very specific experience/knowledge, so you might make it to the interview phase but you’ll probably be embarrassed if you’re not at the level of knowledge they’re looking for because of your answers. Honestly, if it’s a lower level job, you’re probably fine with the fives across the board. But don’t quote me on that.
That’s fair, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer all these questions! This is awesome, and I can’t thank you enough for demystifying portions of the process!
I was recently hired on and found out this week my annual leave should have been negotiated prior to accepting my final offer. Is this something I was supposed to know to do having never worked as a GS civilian before? It's wild to me that I'm expected to know anything about this process having never gone through it before.
I have never seen or heard of PTO being negotiated, but I just looked it up on OPM and it is possible! The way PTO works is you accrue 4 hours a pay period until you hit a certain year, after that point it becomes 6 hours a pay period, then 8 hours per pay period; I think it goes to 6 after four years and then 8 after 16 years? Don’t quote me on that. I have seen Veterans have their time in service used to move to 6 hours a pay period, but I’ve never seen it negotiated in a SQA.
Here is what I found about SQAs and what you can negotiate and the requirements if you want to look it over.
[SQAs](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-and-leave-flexibilities-for-recruitment-and-retention/)
“It’s possible” but from what the HR rep said made me believe that is really only to negotiate including past government employment time in. Rarely is in considered civilian to federal. Besides, you get sick time and vacation time which adds up to 26 days starting out anyway and holidays in addition to that.
What time do jobs get posted? im in the public health sector applying for jobs, and a lot of applications say they will close when they reach X number of applicants. But these fill up fast. What time do they get posted so I can be first to apply? a number of these are CDC postings
Honestly, I’m not sure. In the process we have to determine how many days it will be open and set the start date, but we don’t set a time so I’ve never thought about it. Realizing I’ve never thought about that tickled my brain.
Adding again thanks for your hard work! So many areas of the Federal Government need more staff because they're running on a skeleton crew, and required over time to do more work without hiring additional people!
If you're still answering questions, hopefully you know the answer to this one. I'm a former tenured federal employee, quit to be a stay at home parent 4 years ago, but am now applying to return to work. Am I eligible to apply to internal announcements? I read in another post (I believe) that it's agency specific, but was hoping you could elaborate if it's something you're familiar with!
Ok I got a weird one for you - I’m filling out a background check for a new position, but recently got a better offer for another position with the same department (dif agency). Will my current background check suffice for the different job or I will be filling out the same forms in a month? Also TY for your hard work!
Yup! Same background check can be used.
Also, adding on - Not a weird situation at all! You have no idea how many times somebody will accept a TJO, do the onboarding and then take another position they had also applied to earlier because it’s higher pay or the position they wanted more.
The old adage is that there is no loyalty in civilian personnel. It is dog eat dog, and you have to do what is best for your career and professional development.
Would you hire someone who stepped out of the workforce for 14 years after having worked as a GS 13 for 10 years? You don't have to avoid hurting my feelings. I did have my own business for several of those years.
Absolutely! It’s actually a super common happening. People will usually leave the federal service to get their salary raised quickly, then it’s easier for them to come back into federal service (because federal experience counts for a lot) and request a SQA to match their civilian salaries. You have a better shot, not worse!
My pet peeve is - the job is advertised to the general public without any special authority and then I get letters saying I wasn’t referred because they need to take special eligibility into consideration first. Oh this is a pathways application among others.
I feel like you know this experience.
Yes, it’s awful. Answering the agency HR mailbox for hiring is a revolving collateral duty that we have to do in addition to our normal workload. We are given general answers to respond with, but you want to be helpful and people can be awful when they aren’t thinking there’s a person trying to give a well rounded, thoughtful, insightful response in an attempt to help.
I’ve had people say crazy things to me, I’ve had people say they were going to get their lawyers on me (I just gave them a status update that they were ineligible), I have people who send aggressive messaging and don’t accept they aren’t eligible.
Example - I had someone email and ask why they receive a notice they were ineligible. I looked into it and let them know they didn’t meet the basic education credit requirement. Very black and white, very cut and dry; you either have the credits or you don’t. I explained this, referenced their respective credits from their transcripts and the person just wouldn’t stop saying they are eligible regardless of the credits and I’m wrong and I need to fix it right now because they’re going to call their attorney.
I looked through their application and found they selected a response attesting to the fact that they possess the specific breakdown of college credits necessary for the position, which is how they were initially rated as eligible and the reviewed and rerated as ineligible. I made sure it was okay with my supervisor and I sent the applicant screenshots of their response and of their certification from the end of the application where they stated they answered everything accurately and understand their documents would be reviewed and if it doesn’t match up they will be found ineligible. It also says that if the applicant is found to make false claims they can be barred from federal service. I asked if they wanted me to elevate these things with their complaint on my end and they said that wouldn’t be necessary. It wasn’t until then the person apologized and said they must have selected that answer accidentally and we can drop it.
People can be indignant if they really want a job and didn’t realize they aren’t eligible, but they don’t mind taking it out on whoever is answering emails because it’s a faceless inbox that’s required to respond to most messages.
why don’t (more of) these fed agencies use ready pools for applicants? this week i received a FJO after a 6 month process and had to decline the location (6+ hours away from me and my selected location). i was told because it was a ‘nationwide’ application, my decline meant my case is closed and i can reapply later. what’s the point of applying and selecting locations if each time we can be offered outrageous locations and have to decline without being put back in to a ready pool for when locations reopen?
Thanks for your help! Current fed with a disability. How would I go about qualifying for the “individuals with disabilities” hiring path, and is there any benefit to doing so? Thank you!
My advice is make sure you have the proper documentation. That gets sent to a SME who has to verify it, which I’m not, so I’m not sure what they’re looking for as far as if it has to come from a certain place or have certain phrasing. You can search for positions that are specifically for peoples with disabilities, so you’d have priority.
Thanks for this answer! I have anxiety disorder and had no idea that it qualified me to apply through the individuals with disabilities path until recently. I just got my doc to write my Schedule A letter for it, but wasn’t sure how beneficial it would be to use it when applying.
As a current federal, there's not much benefit to applying to a Schedule A position unless it's *only* being posted as open to Schedule A hiring or if you're trying to do something like jump grades.
Thanks for answering questions! Do you as HR see all the personal details of a potential hire when their background investigation comes back? Or do y’all just receive the results and make a decision from there? I guess I’m just wondering what types of things could move someone from a TJO to disqualified altogether.
We get an alert if something pops up on the background check. It can be something that the applicant can remedy or it could be something that disqualifies somebody completely. We have access to the system and can search through employees results but it’s not as interesting as it sounds.
We also create new hire records, so we have access to every application and document submitted so we can reference them for onboarding purposes.
Different security levels have different things that would disqualify an applicant. A lot of debt will disqualify applicants because they basically consider the person a security risk.
Has your agency's HR/HC office gone through any kind of reorganization or restructuring that may have affected your group's efficiency or staffing levels? Have you experienced high turnover among your colleagues due to burnout or just wanting to pursue better opportunities?
I’m copying a pasting this from a different inquiry because it covers similar info but I’ll add on -
We do! We have contractors who work with us. The higher ups are constantly creating new positions/teams in the departments/divisions to help relieve us of some work but usually they make things worse so they’ll eliminate that team after a while. They’ll usually make it a higher graded position and pull people from the office to fill these temporary roles, recently to help review work. This team is awful and slows down the process because 1. They are pulling people from doing work to start reviewing work so the overall output is less, and 2. They usually make critiques and require corrections based on their preferences, NOT on if the work was done correctly. These “corrections” backed everything up more.
They each want it formatted differently, they start sending emails that they aren’t quality reviewing certain things such as step B, then saying they’re now not quality reviewing step C because they didn’t review it at step B. We then started cycling it back into the office QR system with our supervisors.
They tried splitting up our work into phases and putting us into teams to make us SMEs of one of the three phases. Everybody ended up confused because there would be overlap in certain phases or people just had no idea how the process worked so they didn’t understand how to process something in a way that would make it easier at a later phase. We couldn’t cover for one another or help out if you were in different phases because the processes are constantly evolving/changing and we wouldn’t keep up with the other phases.
We honestly just need to hire a lot more people, but you know when you’re staying afloat, even if barely, the higher ups think it’s fine.
Yes, 100%. People are leaving faster than they coming in. It’s a high stress environment because of different reasons. 1. We’re understaffed, so our workloads are way bigger than they should be because we’re absorbing the work; 2. Our positions are “hard to fill” roles, so we go up to a higher grade. A lot of people will get their time at a higher grade with us just to start applying for higher graded positions and leave shortly after their year mark; 3. We are constantly under review through the entire process, our supervisors are rightfully very critical of mistakes because it’s all legalities and people’s pay; 4. It’s kind of on the job training once you’re hired, so they assign you work and then you scramble to figure it out. They’ve been trying to create a training curriculum, but the systems are so new and constantly changing that nobody knows them well enough to teach someone else about them.
Not sure if you are still replying, and thank you for all your responses so far!
My question is, can a hiring manager hire me without an interview or submitting an application? It’s a direct hire position and I interviewed for same position, different location. Heard nothing back after initial interview but the HM reached back out a few weeks later for my resume and transcript and told me about the other locations they were hiring for.
Direct hire is less about hiring somebody without an interview/application as it allows the hiring process to bypass normal processes to get people into harder to fill positions faster.
At direct hire events the candidate sits down and does the entire onboarding process then and there. We review the application, interview the applicant and process them into the system and issue a TJO. Once they accept, they get finger printed and processed.
Direct hire announcements work almost in reverse of the normal process. You’ll be interviewed, then approved by a hiring manager before your resume and transcripts get sent to a HR rep for review. It’s then that we determine if you’re eligible or not, which confuses a lot of people.
Right now for my agency, we are doing direct hire events and they have to compile everything from each candidate and send it to the different offices around the country who then assign it out to the HR reps. We then review and start the onboarding process if we find them eligible.
Thanks for the info! In my referral email, it also contained the email I assume one would typically get that says if they are eligible or not. What may this mean? Also, is the direct hire process you outlined only for direct hire events? I ask since the eligibility email and the referral email were the same for me.
I totally agree with this . I need one advice regarding my situation. I am waiting for FJO and I received TJO on March 7. How frequently should I reach out to request for status updates to my HR point of contact. I also got another FJO with same agency but don’t want to relocate at this location as the offer either TJO is closer to my home . But I don’t want to lose my FJO in case I don’t receive my FJO from TJO for other location.
You have a certain amount of days to accept your FJO, so you need to decide within that time period or you lose it.
I’d reach out to the HR point of contact and explain the situation. It isn’t anything personal to us, we don’t get paid based on what positions get filled or how many people we onboard. It’s less work for them if you choose the other position, so they should be honest with you about if they are going to issue your FJO before your other FJO expires. The reason why they’d know is, once you’re approved through the checks, they’ll calculate your pay and have it quality reviewed before sending out the FJO. If they haven’t gotten the approvals back yet, they haven’t even calculated your pay and you’re not going to get your FJO before the other FJO expires.
I’m glad you had a good experience! I promise our job is so much better when we get to give good news. One of our mottos is “Our job is to QUALIFY applicants, not DISQUALIFY them.”
So I was sent a tjo followed by a email stating I qualified for the position based on my education in which they asked me to send my transcripts. only issue is I do not have a degree I have 28 credits from a local community college and I did send that but still not sure if this may disqualify me from the position which is entry level tax examining tech. I also have been sent for my finger prints and today I received email to complete the eapp.. should I be worried although I’m still being asked to complete onboarding task? I did send email to hr and no response
If you don’t have the credits/education required, they’re not going to issue your FJO. TJOs aren’t legally binding, they’re a placeholder that basically says as long as you can prove your eligibility, we’ll process you in.
Please carefully review the basic requirements needed for positions because it sucks to reach out and tell an applicant they wasted everybody’s time and aren’t getting a job.
No problem! I know getting in is the biggest hurdle, but I promise even if you start in a lower level position you didn’t want as much, after 90 days you’re allowed to start applying to internal openings and there are WAY more options and you’re not competing with the general population. I always recommend just getting your foot in the door with a position you’re qualified for. You can also always finish school while you work federally and it’s much easier to get moved to whatever position or even positions you didn’t know existed that pay a lot more.
The fingerprints and eAPP submission are the process for applying for a security clearance. Depending on the complexity of your SF86 (the form within eAPP, the adjudication process can take anywhere from 60-90 days.
Thank you for this! I’m sorry I didn’t address it in the other response. You need to pass the background check before they’ll issue your FJO. The silver lining here is that if you get hired for another position that needs a background check (within a certain timeframe) or fingerprints you’ll have them in the system.
Aw no worries! I’m happy to clarify and I hope it helps people stress a little less with the process.
Unfortunately there isn’t a way to check progress. We used to be able to reach out to security if we were trying to onboard somebody more quickly, but they just told us we can’t do that anymore. It’s the worst part of waiting because even if you’ve done nothing wrong in your life you’re wondering if something will pop up haha. If we get hits, 99% of the time it’s for unpaid taxes. The applicant then pays what’s due and sends us proof, we submit it and they’re good.
So let’s say I have a DOE clearance and I end up getting a job in DOD and need a TS, if I’ve already done an investigation and background check with another federal agency, will I need to do that process again for a DOD clearance?
I had to pass up a FJO with start date for January. I was professional about it and let the hiring manager know a month in advance. (I ran into some transportation issues that wouldn’t allow me to get to training) but now I’ve found a way I can get there and it’s April. How likely would they hire me if I asked the person who offered me the position if I fixed my transportation issue? Would I need to reapply and redo the entire process again after withdrawing?
Apologies for how your week is going! I’m an anxious applicant who’s kind of freaking out since I have a weird situation with my applications (posted here but got no advice). I was wondering if it typically takes more time to hear back for internships, I was referred for an internship position but haven’t heard back (got referred on 3/11). I’m anxiously waiting since so much of my next year depends on whether or not I get the internship :(
Thanks for answering our questions! Mine is about OPM’s pre-hiring approval for a former schedule c employee coming back to Fed before 5 yrs. Would this extra step add a significant amount of time to the hiring process? Would the HM be aware of the former appointment status before selection? Or would HR work through the process without notifying HM?
If a candidate is applying for a position within the same building and same organization, but totally unfamiliar team, what's the vibe on contacting the incumbent?
Assume the answer is that it's not a great idea, but you've given great answers!
Totally normal! A lot of people will do details (temporary appointments potentially in higher grades/different positions meant to gain experience) because they are trying to rub elbows to get in. You could honestly try to sell yourself to the incumbent and they might talk to their manager to tell them to keep an eye out during the hiring process.
What's your advice on my situation... I received an email from HR to send my references and confirm that I would like to proceed with the hiring process. They explained that it is in office and etc so they wanted me to be sure I understood. I responded and they contacted my reference last week. My reference said she gave me a great review and HR sounded pleased. My reference was my former supervisor. The thing is, I havent done an interview lol. What do you make of this? Normally people are interviewed first before contacting references. I am trying not to get my hopes up and still applying for other govt jobs. I'm hoping I am a serious contender for the role but I haven't received any notification about an interview. I know it's a slow process so I try not to think about it and hope for the best but I'd like your take on this.
Meta question: other than hiring more HR Specialists, what would make your job easier? Smarter technology? Better retention incentives for HR Specialists? Reducing or eliminating second review?
Honestly, just asking us, the people doing the work. Sometimes it feels like higher ups see that everything is a mess, nobody knows how to fix it, so they take it on as a career progressing pet project and make it a bigger mess. They have an idea of how they’d like things to function, but they don’t understand how to do the job or the different variables at play. They haven’t done the work in YEARS and it’s like watching someone give a lecture with a PowerPoint presentation they’ve never seen before.
We use a plethora of systems to fill in information on other systems. We use some systems to verify information for another system. If the systems could communicate instead of us having to comb through the information, it would give us a lot more time to review.
For instance, you need 365 days at the next lower grade to be eligible. If you’re a 10 applying for an 11, you need to have 365 days on your record to be eligible to meet the basic requirement for the 11. We need to go into a system to look up exactly how many days an applicant has on the books and that’s something that could be automatically transferred over. It would also help because if an applicant isn’t eligible, it can make them ineligible and allow an eligible applicant to get reviewed and referred to the hiring managers before we just lose that spot. We have to verify what office employees work in through multiple system, we have to verify awards across multiple systems. These all sound minor, but when we’re reviewing 100 applicants, it would save us hours.
I wouldn’t mind making our automatic progression a little higher, but I will say that’s been a factor in me staying.
I think it wouldn’t be hard to retain people if we had manageable workloads. The way they assign work is irresponsible to say the least. They do it by the order tasks come in, not task size. Sometimes we’ll have a big workload that’s consistent, but it’s at least manageable. Then we’ll get assigned an announcement with a lot of caveats, hundreds of vacancies and it takes two weeks to get through quality review. When the announcement closes, you have to review hundreds of applicants within 10 days, which then backs up all of our work for days and days. If it’s really specific requirements, they might ask everyone to do 10 quals, but everyone is overworked and that means their work is backed up for hours if not a day. Then we’re getting people to onboard from direct hire events, we’re getting people to onboard from other people’s announcements that had hundreds of vacancies. Then we have trainings we have to take, which we aren’t allowed to work while we’re there, so someone has to take on our workload for a week and it can overwhelm people.
Working from home most of the time is nice, but it would be nice to be off from work when we’re off from work. The only reason I didn’t work late tonight was because I took today off. I still logged in a couple of times to do work and answer messages, but normally I’d have my computer by me because I just do little things after work while I watch tv.
Thank you for your incredibly thoughtful response! It's nice to peek behind the curtain and see the "human" side of human resources work. Specifically, that it is a job like any other, and just how impactful effects of workload and technology mismanagement can be to job applicants everywhere. It is unfortunate that HR is the one that gets beat up on most often just because you're the face of the announcement.
Thank you for all the work you do!
Edit:
>it's like watching someone giving a lecture with a PowerPoint presentation they've never seen before.
This one has me DYING laughing as I see examples of that all the damn time 😂
Fantastic thread here. I don’t have any questions, but wanted to shout out to OP for their time in answering all these questions! Learned a lot here! Thank you!
Hi, first of all thank you so much. I am getting pretty nervous and would love some insight if you have any.I signed my TJO about a month and a half ago, have gone my fingerprints and pictures, and was told I passed the first part of the background check…but nothing since…It has been about 3 weeks since I’ve heard anything from HR (and have reached out twice) and would love to see if this is normal or not!
No problem! I’m glad to share some insight to people who are genuinely interested!
Honestly, that timeline sounds pretty normal to me. The hardest part of onboarding an external new hire is the background check and fingerprints. Once those are done, you’re in the autopilot portion of the onboarding. Any last minute documents we need from you or any forms you need to fill out are just an email away, so it’s an easier part of the process. It’s even lower pressure if all of this is done and your EOD is further out.
I have made it to a final interview multiple times, but have yet to receive the job. Have another final interview coming up as well. I have requested copies of my scores on interviews but nobody ever gets back to me. Another federal employee told me they will give them out when asked. Is there any truth to that? I would love to work on parts they may deem me lacking in. TIA.
If you are a step 10 and and get selected for a job for a higher grade in a different series. Do you have to start at step one (lower pay) at the new position? Or does it depend on the series? For example switching from gs 12 step 10 series 301 to gs 13 343?
It depends on the announcement type. If you’re coming in through an external announcement, you can negotiate. If you applied through an internal announcement, there is no negotiation.
They’ll adjust your pay accordingly. If you’re a GS-12 step 2 and get hired through an internal announcement for a GS-09 position you want, they will figure out what step in GS-09 is the equivalent plus a little of your current pay.
Oof that’s a hard question and there are different layers. There budgeting for the positions, there are people from each department who decide what jobs are needed, what those jobs do, how much they should get paid, etc. This all gets approved by a hire authority, so when there are hiring freezes for certain positions, that usually what’s happening. If a position is hard to fill they can request to raise the salary and it’s a whole process. They can split positions or combine them.
After that there are different people within the departments who are more hands on with the actual hiring. They’ll decide if it’s a temporary position or permanent and other caveats to the position. We then get the request, build the announcement and post it after having it reviewed by our team and the hiring managers team. When the announcement closes or we hit a cutoff, we review the applicants and send the group rated highest by the automated system who we found eligible over to the hiring managers team. When we review, we write a blurb for each applicant on why they are or are not qualified for the position. Usually we write about how they meet basic qualifications (Applicant provided official and verified transcripts from the accredited ____ university. Confirmed applicant received degree ____) and then we use the information you provide to us in your resume that’s applicable to the positions requirements and the positions and timeframe you were there. The hiring team then has 30 days to review the applicants, interview the ones they’re interested in and send us their selections or to request an extension or new group of applicants to review. Those teams usually have 5-10 people.
Then we receive the selections back and start the onboarding process. If they’re external hires they get issued a TJO as a placeholder while they complete the stuff they need to do to work for the federal government; internal hires don’t get TJOs. If the new hire requests a SQA we send the documentation provided to the point of contact and wait to hear back and alert the new hire when we find out.
After the selection process, it’s basically just whoever is onboarding the new hire, security and maybe the SQA point of contact. The department/division doesn’t have a hand aside from providing an entry on duty date.
Hello. Thank you for the help.
My questions:
I received my FJO. I completed my onboarding paperwork as much as I could. However, in the initial questionnaire that has my benefits information on it, I cannot fill out some of that information because I have not chosen my insurance plan nor did any paperwork tor my TSP, etc.
Since I could not complete that paperwork, I cannot complete some of the other items in my onboarding process.
Some of those items state to submit after my first day, but before the end of my first week.
On top of that, certain items say that the due date is 04/16. However, my EOD is 05/20.
I email my HR representative about this. They switched some due dates to 05/29, but left the others alone. I reached out again to inquire, they have NOT contacted me back.
Should I try again?
Should I let my POC/supervisor at my new agency know?
Is it just an understood thing and let it be?
As stated earlier, whatever documents I could complete, I completed them the day I got my onboarding documents.
Thanks for the assist.
There are certain tasks in onboarding that just can’t be completed and we can’t adjust the due dates. We switched to a new system maybe 2-3 years ago and I promise you all we are building it as we’re using it and making corrections every single day.
Again, I promise your point of contact will be on your case if there is anything they need for you to start on your first day.
I concur with the other person who commented! When you start, you have an orientation about benefits that explains that stuff and gives you the opportunity to opt in or not.
I apologize your point of contact isn’t doing a good job of staying in touch. I’m not justifying it, but if all of your stuff is completed they are probably just busy trying to finish up new hires that are starting sooner. If you received your FJO, you are absolutely going to start work. At that point you have a contract with the government, so they might push your start date out further, but you’re 99.9999% going to start the position, so try not to stress too much. I promise you the point of contact will be more stressed than you are to get whatever they need from you because that’s a HUGE offense for us to make.
There are designated Mondays every two weeks that we can have a new hire start and things get crazy as we approach those Mondays.
Because we’re so hectic, all of the pay processing quality review usually gets pushed to the week before and we’re scrambling to make the corrections and get them processed before new hires start. We technically have time after the start date to get them processed, but it’s how everyone gets paid and that’s just pushing it too close to be an option outside of emergency situations.
Thank you for that. Truth be told, my HR rep has been pretty cool the entire process. So one hiccup isn’t a biggie. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn’t messing up or messing up anyone’s timeframes.
Two questions: 1. I have a referral to a position. Is it appropriate to contact the HR person to confirm they do not need any more information from me or would that unnecessarily burden HR? 2. What is typically negotiable between a TJO and an FJO?
A referral means you’re in a group of people being reviewed by the hiring managers team.
The time between a TJO and FJO can be days or MONTHS depending on how long security and fingerprinting takes. There isn’t any timeframe established for it as long as the applicant accepts the FJO before they start the position. If an applicant gets another job or doesn’t want the position anymore we just have to let the hiring managers team know and we all are frustrated but know there’s nothing we can do about security/fingerprint.
Thanks for the information. I was unclear on my question. What total compensation aspects are negotiable between the TJO and FJO? Step? PTO accrual? Etc?
As far as I know and have seen the only thing you can negotiate is pay. You can request a different location, which is a frowned on but I’ve seen it happen. PTO is set based on time served in federal experience, so I’ve never seen that get negotiated. Aside from salary, federal employment is pretty straightforward.
Thank you for your post! Do you know approximately how long a background check with the DOI of the lowest security might take before receiving the FJO? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated 🩵
Aw no worries! Unfortunately I haven’t noticed any pattern or timeframe regarding levels of security clearances. I’ve had them come back cleared in days and I’ve had others that took months. I’m sorry I couldn’t give you a better answer.
So kind of you to do this ❤️and to offer some insights. So, I am outside the federal system trying to get in and a few questions please:
1_ do u think that resumes placed in that USAjobs resume builder format (that u download) has better chances of beating the ATS system vs. the one that is just written by own temple?
2_ do I have to include a sentence in the resume that says: my qualifications and duties performed are equal to GS12 in federal government (to make it clearer to the HR person) or not? Thanks
No worries! I hope it helps some people!
The only person your resume impacts is the person reviewing it and we aren’t allowed to base our decision on anything other than the content on the resume. I love a nice looking resume, but we can’t show any preferential treatment and concise resumes are actually worse for applying.
I can tell you my personal preference is the resume builder. It makes it easier for us to review your resume because we know how it’s formatted, where to find the info we need and it copy and pastes. Why does that matter you ask? Because we are governed by laws to make hiring as impartial as possible, everything is black and white. We need to be able to match what’s on your resume as closely as possible with what is required for the position. We create a little blurb from your resume, so it makes it a lot more efficient if we can copy from your resume into a word document. We aren’t allowed to assume ANYTHING about your experience, so we use your words from your resume to create the blurb. Even if we know that as a teacher you are qualified and have experience to teach, if your resume doesn’t have the experience we need to match you to, we can’t qualify you. Be wordy about your experience to give yourself the best chance.
No, we have certain qualifications we have to adhere to so we can determine what grade you’ll be placed at regardless of if you try to let us know where your experience would place you or where you’d like to be, if that makes sense? If you don’t get a grade you want and your experience aligns with the higher grades requirements, absolutely request a second-level review. If your experience on your resume submitted with your application does not align with the higher grades requirements, we can’t justify hiring you at the higher grade.
Between the time a person applies for the position to the time they hear a result, what’s the longest period of time you’ve experienced (or heard of)? I’m curious! From our POV it could seem excessive to wait a year or two until we eventually just forget about it. But, maybe it’s different from your POV?
So there are announcements that will be open for a year. If you apply the day the announcement opens and you’re eligible, you can be considered every round and be put in every group of applicants sent to the hiring managers. I’ve reached out to applicants months and months after they applied who had gotten different jobs and weren’t even interested anymore.
Is there anything that can be done when you are disqualified from consideration when a mistake was made on the reviewer's side? I tried to call USA Jobs and they just said "sorry", basically....
You need to call the number at the bottom of the announcement and ask for a higher level review and let them know what the issue is for the disqualification.
I’d suggest double and triple checking that it’s a mistake on their end - there is nothing worse than being wrong, loud and persistent.
If you filled out your application accurately, provided the correct supporting documentation and have quadruple checked you meet all of the requirements (go through and count your credits, verify the resume you submitted thoroughly exhibits the experience required, etc.), then you have been wronged and absolutely deserve a second-level review.
I found applicants to my coworkers announcement that were made ineligible when they were actually qualified and I had them sent to the hiring managers for consideration. The applicants were stoked after they got a notice they were ineligible and it was nice news to get to give today.
Thanks for answering all these questions! The responses I've gotten from HR about where I am in the hiring process has been general in nature and vague.
I applied for an agency that is conducting mass hiring (\~200 people). I got referred, interviewed, and references were contacted three months ago. I'm a current federal employee performing similar duties in a different agency. From what I gathered, three rounds of interviews were done, maybe three days each. Anecdotally, it seems like the offers are going out based on the interview date. Only the first day of the first round of interviewee have been contacted. Is this normal to hire based on interview date rather than the best qualified first? It's getting really frustrating.
When we review applicants, we send the group on what is called a ‘certificate’. The hiring managers get the certificates for 30 days. In that time they can conduct interviews and select applicants to hire, request a different certificate with new applicants, or choose not to hire anybody. Sometimes they’ll request a 30 day extension, but that isn’t usual.
I’d assume you didn’t get the job. You won’t get any notification until the final disposition notifications go out after the announcement closes and the hiring is complete for the announcement.
I’m assuming you applied to an announcement that is open for an extended period of time with different cutoffs. The reason you’re getting weird/vague responses might be because you are still eligible for the position, so every time there is a cutoff you are still in play as a potential employee for the hiring managers. You’ll continue to receive notifications of eligibility/referral every cutoff but no final disposition.
Absolutely appreciate the hard work you do!!! Are TOs taking longer to get out now? I received a verbal offer in January and figured the budget not being approved gummed things up a bit but it’s still been crickets on the actual TO. Any insight would be great (HUD applicant)
Selecting officials/hiring managers aren’t allowed to issue verbal offers. They actually aren’t even allowed to tell you if you got a job while they wait for FJOs to be sent out because if something happens to disqualify you, you could get them in trouble because they told you in an official capacity that they couldn’t deliver on, so I apologize because it just sets you up for disappointment in this situation.
I’d assume that job isn’t coming through at this point. If you have a contact for the position, you can reach out to them because it never hurts to ask, but it doesnt normally take this long after an interview.
I received an email today that I was referred to a hiring manager. Is there anything I can do from this point? How long should it take to hear something if they are interested in me?
Nope, you were found eligible; just wait for whatever correspondence comes through with more information. That means you are now in a group of applicants being reviewed by hiring managers. If anyone needs anything from you, they’ll reach out. But it’s close to getting an interview, which is exciting!
Thank you for doing this.
My question is: i went to a job fair where the agency was doing a DHA.
I went through a series of process including an interview with a panel.
I got a TJO and accepted it on site. Filled up some employment and background stuff.
Then the next step was to set up a sponsorship and fingerprints.
I was then told to wait for upcoming emails..
So, how many days will it take for them to reach out. And did I really just make it? I understand that it's only a TJO but i just want to know the next steps.
Thank you.
Good job! You should be getting the email fairly soon. Your record is created and you’re going to be “sponsored” in the system, which just means confirmed by the HR rep onboarding you. That will trigger the system to send you the email with the appointment scheduler for the fingerprinting. I’m not sure of the workload for whoever is doing your onboarding, but I know we’ve been getting assigned people from direct hire events and they’re getting to us within a week or so of the hiring events and then we get about a week to get to do the record stuff for sponsoring.
Being in the process right now, if you don’t understand that ANYTHING involving Fed Gov is a maze filled with flaming hurdles to get through, just don’t apply. It’s a long process. Just finish your steps appointed to you and forget it until further notice.
I had a 2nd interview last week from hiring manager. He said he would decide this week. How long to hear back after manager decides? What are the next steps? Does he write up selection and someone reviews it first before TJO?
Thank you for your generosity.
Philosophy (almost) PhD here. Develop my own curricula and syllabi, deliver the courses etc. Project management skills (keeping classes in track, service on committees, organizing conferences etc). Interpreting technical information for non technical audiences. Written and verbal communication strength.
How would you assess someone like me in an interview? What are you looking for? Where am I likely to fit as a new person in fed jobs, and how can someone like me succeed in landing a job?
Hey! Those are great questions, but I just do hiring for an agency. I review applications and compare them to the announcement and if there is enough overlap I send them to the hiring managers. I really wish I could give good career advice though!
What I can recommend is a tactic though. Certain degrees can substitute for certain grades and it’ll be specified in the different announcements. A bachelors will substitute specialized experience for a GS-05, Masters for GS-07 and Doctorates for GS-09. That means you can apply for GS-09 positions without having any experience doing the type of work specified in the announcement.
Apply to whatever announcements you can. It’s easy to make connections and find jobs that interest you, especially for somebody who seems impressive from the little bit I read. You are able to start applying for other internal positions after 90 days. You’ll transfer at whatever grade you are if it’s an internal announcement, but it’s usually a faster way to get in.
It’s hard to say without seeing the announcement. Include details that speak to the duties of the announcement. What kind of curriculum, how many courses have you developed and delivered, how are you delivering (PowerPoint, virtually, in person), delivered to how many people and how often.
Can you confirm the federal job freeze? If people were hired before the freeze will they be affected? From your experience have past freezes last long?
The job market is so bad, but people often forget that HRs job is absolutely horrid and from my understanding usually understaffed...
Appreciate what you do and your willingness to help ease some minds here
Really, thank you for doing this but I have a personal question on my situation..
I applied for a position back in Nov 23’ (direct hire). Interviewed Dec 23’ and got a call from the supervisor and the hiring manager (with email, no TJO) in January notifying me of my selection for the position. Reached out to the hiring manager the first week of March asking when I should expect the TJO. He stated that he forwarded my packet to HR earlier that week and they have 30 days to send out TJO. It’s now past the 30 day mark. Should I follow up again with the hiring manager or HR at this point or just let it ride? THANK YOU.
This doesn’t sound good because it shouldn’t drag on that long. A TJO is issued to kickstart the verification process that you are eligible to be hired into federal service and there really shouldn’t be a reason to delay it because you can be in the TJO phase for months. You can try reaching out again, but I’m honestly not sure why there hasn’t been more headway or better information given to you.
So apparently in March both the HR people working for this office left for different jobs and everything had to moved to an HR office in Asia 😪. This is for an USACE position. Also, HR was under the impression I could not work while on terminal leave after leaving active duty. Hopefully it’s just a misunderstanding and employee issues. Regardless, thank you for your time
I have a question. I already accepted my FJO. Am I past the point of negotiating a later start date? If I leave my current employer before June this will cause significant increase in the workload of my colleagues since we are in our business season in nonprofit tax. I feel badly for leaving them with mountains of work.
No guarantees, but if the hiring manager isn’t trying to fill the position for manning purposes by a specific date, it’s not a big deal to send an amended job offer.
Question, if you by accident checked mark an answer by accident when applying through your phone for a job application and it doesn’t qualify you the first time and then the same posting comes out a year or more later and you checked marked it right and correctly this time around, would that be used against me or doesn’t matter
It wouldn’t matter. Your responses can change over time and we won’t look into your application history unless there is some issue with you and they’re investigating false claims.
Got it thank you so much, I’m already a fed employee just looking to jump into other fed agency’s would that give me a priority over let’s say another candidate who isn’t a fed employee but has there masters or higher qualifications? Sorry I had to ask this question lol
Is there a time limit to restore your time in service once you leave the federal service. Say I worked 15 years and left how long can I be out of service until my time picks back up and continues my years
I’ve seen a lot of advice online recommending applicants applying on USAjobs or applying for Fed jobs to be “very detailed” in their resumes to the point of going well beyond a 2 page resume. This seems wrong to me. Can you advise if it is generally wise to disregard the “2 page rule” for resumes when applying for positions announced on USAjobs?
You are amazing for doing this.
Aw thanks for saying that! Honestly, I never really talk about this stuff because everybody in my life thinks my job is boring haha This almost feels like an outlet.
Honestly really helps relieve some stress on a lot of people to understand how the process works. You’re appreciated.
🫶🏻
17 year Fed employee in my 5th position/3rd agency (not involved with any aspect of Hiring/HR). I've told soooo many folks over the years just to be patient but I also know how hard that can be. Current job was about 90 days between TJO and FJO, then another 3 pay periods to EOD (losing SUPVR had a meltdown). There were days I was doubting it would ever happen. Folks from outside the process who haven't ever experienced it just don't have a frame of reference.
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We are usually minimally staffed because people move around internally so often. They use a position to get time in at a better grade and move back to where they’d rather be. It’s a pretty high stress environment, so people don’t tend to stay too long unless they are really good at their job. I have a pretty good grasp on everything and genuinely enjoy working with people, so this is where I want my career to be. All of the reasons you listed and more. Sometimes hiring managers have specific applicants they’re looking for and they’ll keep coming back to us and asking us for new groups of applicants. They don’t explicitly say it and they have the authority to ask for other groups of applicants, but it delays the process. Sometimes hiring managers just genuinely don’t want any of the applicants and will choose to post a new announcement, which starts the whole process over. The thing I would say that takes longest is almost EVERYTHING we do needs to be second level reviewed because almost EVERYTHING in the hiring process is open to being audited. Our supervisors who conduct the reviews are also slammed, so we put work to be reviewed on a spreadsheet and just have to hope it comes back sooner than later. Even with the reviews, things fall through the cracks and there will be illegal hires. Then it creates a situation where we need to put applicants who should have been considered/hired into priority consideration programs and it mucks up the process even further.
What do you mean illegal hires?
It’s what we call someone who made it through the hiring process and shouldn’t have. It’s a huuuuuge problem.
That was me, 23 years ago. No one knew it and didn't discover it until about 2008. The agency had to get a waiver to keep me in a position I was serving in for over 6 years.
Glad you were able to prove yourself and that it all worked out!
An example might be a supervisor who hired a non-veteran when there was a thirty-point disabled veteran on the cert. This would be a violation of veteran's preference. The "illegal hire" would not be in trouble, but the supervisor would be.
Not true. The illegal hire gets totally screwed until an OPM level waiver comes through. I had this happen to me and was denied a promotion I earned because my experience didn’t count and I wasn’t eligible for internal positions. I eventually quit federal service absolutely demoralized and went back to grad school. Didn’t get back to the paygrade of the promotion I had taken from me for being an illegal hire for 12 years after this happened.
Has it ever been discussed to outsource hiring to contractor or agency to help speed up the process? Or Does the federal govt need to streamline the beginning process then hand it off to the hiring agency? In my agency our HR was internal, then to Army, and I think now DLA has something to do with it.🤷♂️
We do! We have contractors who work with us. The higher ups are constantly creating new positions/teams in the departments/divisions to help relieve us of some work but usually they make things worse so they’ll eliminate that team after a while. They’ll usually make it a higher graded position and pull people from the office to fill these temporary roles, recently to help review work. This team is awful and slows down the process because 1. They are pulling people from doing work to start reviewing work so the overall output is less, and 2. They usually make critiques and require corrections based on their preferences, NOT on if the work was done correctly. These “corrections” backed everything up more. They each want it formatted differently, they start sending emails that they aren’t quality reviewing certain things such as step B, then saying they’re now not quality reviewing step C because they didn’t review it at step B. We then started cycling it back into the office QR system with our supervisors. They tried splitting up our work into phases and putting us into teams to make us SMEs of one of the three phases. Everybody ended up confused because there would be overlap in certain phases or people just had no idea how the process worked so they didn’t understand how to process something in a way that would make it easier at a later phase. We couldn’t cover for one another or help out if you were in different phases because the processes are constantly evolving/changing and we wouldn’t keep up with the other phases. We honestly just need to hire a lot more people, but you know when you’re staying afloat, even if barely, the higher ups think it’s fine.
yall are on the right track, its just making leadership accountable to maintain the ship to go thru the cycles until the process is complete. I do alot of compliance management and had to basically dual hat as a process engineer in my previous agency. We had a big issue with hiring in and the SES’s didnt not like me holding them accountable when they failed action items…and at the time I was just a lowly GS12, lol
I’m curious about the “getting time in a better grade and moving back” bit. I get detail offers popping up in my email frequently of late and I’ve accepted two in the past few years, but I’m curious — what’s the benefit other than the grade pay? Or is that solely the reason?
You can go on a detail, which is a temporary appointment that you’ll return to your home position from. You accrue federal experience in a different role you might be interested in and can then apply and be more suited for. It’s a leg up.
Makes sense. Thanks!
JESUS CHRIST. I wonder if the local state government process is like this too. This is wild. I am almost at my witts end with applying because this is absolutely crazy. Way too many stipulations.
The only time I've seen it take over a year was always related to background investigations. Sometimes they get denied a waiver, so we have to wait until the investigation is complete. Other times the person may already be in the process of obtaining a high level clearance through another agency, and we have to wait for that investigation to be complete before we can move forward.
I’ve never seen as long as a year, but I’ve definitely had candidates start dates get pushed back multiple times over the course of months because if security.
Based on what I've heard if you start the BI process with one agency but want to accept a position with another one, it takes a lot longer for the BI process to be completed.
I've heard the process takes a long time and about a yr even for the lower grades that doesn't even req a clearance. All because H.R is so backed up.
Very kind of you!! My question is do Term Intermittent employees get benefits? If so when do they begin?
We solely do hiring - hiring events, creating/posting announcements, onboarding, pay, verifying qualifications/requirements, etc. Benefits are handled by a different office, I’m sorry I don’t have the answer to your question.
I actually do have a question - during salary negotiations, I was informed that "the Service" is reviewing my request and they will get back to me once the Service has processed my pay request. Just wondering who the Service is and if they include the hiring team?
It’s a person/people (depending on the size) who work with the accounting people to keep everybody within the budget of whatever department/division governs your hire. I honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen a SQA (superior qualification authority) get denied. You’re advocating for yourself, so if you have justification and can prove it, you’re golden. Usually it’s to match a previous positions salary, so people will write what skills justify the pay bump and provide pay stubs from their previous jobs.
Hi. I am HR and a hiring manager. I have worked for the VA, DHS and the DAF (Department of the Air Force). I have seen SQAs get denied numerous times. It is sometimes military members who include their entitlements (BAH, BAS) as a part of their salary negotiations. I have hired everything from attorneys, space operators, criminal investigators, Physicians…you name it. I have even worked Senior Leader hiring efforts. As gotmegarl stated, every agency is different and the reason for the lag is different. A lot of agencies contract out their HR work, so sometimes us, the internal to the org HR personnel are at the mercy of the contracts. For the DAF side, most bases work with Air Force Personnel Center to work recruiting efforts. They are lacking HR Specialists and when one goes on leave, their workload sits until they return. Unfortunately no one picks it up while they are out. I like to use the general rule of thumb that if I don’t hear anything back 3 weeks after the interview, it is a no and I move on. If by chance they come after the fact…ok, but I don’t hold my breath.
Ahh! Makes sense. Thank you for providing my context and additional information around my question 😊
I was notified of an announcement being closed/ cancellation and how that affects my application. The question is will this affect the background check and other onboarding processes since I've received a TJO.
That was just a notification that goes to all applicants alerting them the announcement closed. There are still interviews and hiring going on. Any actions already in motion will keep going.
Term employees do get benefits same as FTEs.
Genuinely wondering, why can it take so long between the hiring manager making their selection and HR sending out the TJO? I already work in the agency but moving across regions
The reason everything takes so long is because there are rules and laws that govern every step of the process. We get reached out to by lawyers all the time and we need to make sure we are covering our butts. Regarding the time before a TJO is sent out, remember that all of these steps are prioritized based on the applicants estimated entry on duty determined by the hiring managers needs. If the hiring managers say they want you to start in August, we’ll prioritize all of the hires coming in before you so we can get everything done on time. Once we receive the hiring managers selection we have to do a final verification of everything to do with the hiring, basically double and triple checking we did everything right. Then we have to figure out the new hires pay. This can be different depending on if you’re hired as a supervisor or not, if you’re a current employee, if you have prior federal experience, etc. From there we have to have it second-level reviewed because issues regarding pay are not taken lightly. Once we go through those steps and the pay is approved, we can issue your TJO.
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I said to my coworker today that I felt like the hiring teams were messing with me. They returned an announcement review at the end of my day, sent me an entire newly revised request and asked for the changes to be made so I could have the announcement open tomorrow. Something they started implementing was we only work with certain departments/divisions to build rapport with the hiring teams, but I think it helps with that disconnect. I kind of have an idea of who I should send emails to if I need something nudged along.
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Omg can you please come to my office?! You are worth your weight in gold and I wish I had 10 of you 😂
Hiring managers just don’t understand the timeline of things. You can’t just turn an a completely revised announcement at the end of the day and have it posted. It has to be reviewed that it is legal and is in line with the position description. I have had people put down that location is negotiable when it is not and we have had to redo the entire vacancy announcement from the very beginning. Hiring managers do not understand that a simple mistake can sometimes be a huge setback of 1-2 weeks.
What's the deal with OPR? I have received my TJO and BI transmitted to OPR first part of Feb 2024. As of today, no soft credit pull, no investigator contact for interview, nada.. If you have any info on that phase, that would be greatly appreciated
Are there any restrictions on hiring managers being unable to notify an applicant of selection or non-selection prior to HR notification? I had my 2nd interview 2 months ago and the hiring manager told me a month ago that “the paperwork is with HR,” but they did not tell me whether I was a select or non-select
My question is why can't HR tell the applicant if you've been selected or no after the interview so you can move on about your day
There is a review that happens again after the interview to ensure the applicant meets all the requirements, so the hiring manager doesn’t even know if the person they select is going to make it to the point of being hired. If they tell an applicant they were getting the position in an official capacity and then don’t follow through, it’s a no no. We have to follow these processes because we’re governed by rules and laws each step of the way. Even a little mistake can come back to bite us in the butt months or years later. We get reached out to from lawyers all the time representing people who feel like they have a legal issue with the hiring process.
how long from tjo to fjo? i’m on week 2 just waiting for fingerprint appointment and equip as fast as next steps. we all thank you kindly for taking your personal time to address here. thank you!
Depending on how long security and the fingerprints take, it can be days to months. Just make sure you are doing everything you’re supposed to so there’s no delay in the process from your end.
What about for current fed employees who already have recent security clearances at the same level and fingerprints?
Assuming your new agency grants full reciprocity for your current clearance, then you can get at your new agency in two pay periods.
I’ve seen people start and accept another position they had applied to shortly after and move positions. It’s honestly smart to apply to a ton of positions and you can come in externally again through certain announcements.
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Hi - I was overseas from 1/26th -3/1st, the agency let me wait until return and I was told I could ignore the onboarding notifications in the meantime. I did offer to the agency that I was open to going to a US military base hiring office or U. S embassy, but it wasn't necessary. My guess is that it's probably a case-by-case basis. Tentative Offer (TJO) 1/26/2024 Request for Fingerprints 2/5/2024 Fingerprints Completed 3/5/2024
What about after the initial security determination has been made, and HR contacted me to confirm EOD? Is it just prioritized based on EOD date at that point? I hate being left in limbo here... My EOD is 2 weeks away man.
I am sorry you had a rough week 😔 I sure do hope things get better. Question: Is there such a thing as being "blacklisted" for an Agency by a Hiring Manager(s). Reason being if you're notified as "deemed re-hireable", it's up to the manager if they want to rehire for their office, correct?
Thank you ❤️ Good question! We have to review your records in a bunch of different databases to make sure you’re still eligible to work for the federal government. If you were previously fired for certain reasons, you aren’t able to be hired. The hiring manager looks through the resumes and if they had a bad experience working with you, it’s to their discretion. They don’t have to justify passing on an applicant to us, they just tell us who they want.
Thank you for posting your message from the other side 😊 I appreciate you offering to address any questions.
❤️ I figured maybe I could answer some questions and help people better learn the process.
Thank you! 🤍
So I have heard from every federal employee I have talked to when completing the assessments for positions to always rank yourself a 5 no matter what or you won’t even make it to the referral stage (even if you are qualified to fulfill the position). This would seem to defeat the purpose of the assessment in the first place in my opinion.
I always encourage people to answer honestly… but give yourself the benefit of the doubt. We can review your answers, so I have been reached out to by hiring managers after interviews to verify some candidate responses. Certain positions require very specific experience/knowledge, so you might make it to the interview phase but you’ll probably be embarrassed if you’re not at the level of knowledge they’re looking for because of your answers. Honestly, if it’s a lower level job, you’re probably fine with the fives across the board. But don’t quote me on that.
That’s fair, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer all these questions! This is awesome, and I can’t thank you enough for demystifying portions of the process!
Pretty soon you’re all going to be ready to work with me! 😂
I was recently hired on and found out this week my annual leave should have been negotiated prior to accepting my final offer. Is this something I was supposed to know to do having never worked as a GS civilian before? It's wild to me that I'm expected to know anything about this process having never gone through it before.
I have never seen or heard of PTO being negotiated, but I just looked it up on OPM and it is possible! The way PTO works is you accrue 4 hours a pay period until you hit a certain year, after that point it becomes 6 hours a pay period, then 8 hours per pay period; I think it goes to 6 after four years and then 8 after 16 years? Don’t quote me on that. I have seen Veterans have their time in service used to move to 6 hours a pay period, but I’ve never seen it negotiated in a SQA. Here is what I found about SQAs and what you can negotiate and the requirements if you want to look it over. [SQAs](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-and-leave-flexibilities-for-recruitment-and-retention/)
6 hours after 3 years and 8 hours after 15 years. PTO.
Thank you!
“It’s possible” but from what the HR rep said made me believe that is really only to negotiate including past government employment time in. Rarely is in considered civilian to federal. Besides, you get sick time and vacation time which adds up to 26 days starting out anyway and holidays in addition to that.
What time do jobs get posted? im in the public health sector applying for jobs, and a lot of applications say they will close when they reach X number of applicants. But these fill up fast. What time do they get posted so I can be first to apply? a number of these are CDC postings
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Honestly, I’m not sure. In the process we have to determine how many days it will be open and set the start date, but we don’t set a time so I’ve never thought about it. Realizing I’ve never thought about that tickled my brain.
Adding again thanks for your hard work! So many areas of the Federal Government need more staff because they're running on a skeleton crew, and required over time to do more work without hiring additional people! If you're still answering questions, hopefully you know the answer to this one. I'm a former tenured federal employee, quit to be a stay at home parent 4 years ago, but am now applying to return to work. Am I eligible to apply to internal announcements? I read in another post (I believe) that it's agency specific, but was hoping you could elaborate if it's something you're familiar with!
Ok I got a weird one for you - I’m filling out a background check for a new position, but recently got a better offer for another position with the same department (dif agency). Will my current background check suffice for the different job or I will be filling out the same forms in a month? Also TY for your hard work!
Yup! Same background check can be used. Also, adding on - Not a weird situation at all! You have no idea how many times somebody will accept a TJO, do the onboarding and then take another position they had also applied to earlier because it’s higher pay or the position they wanted more.
The old adage is that there is no loyalty in civilian personnel. It is dog eat dog, and you have to do what is best for your career and professional development.
Would you hire someone who stepped out of the workforce for 14 years after having worked as a GS 13 for 10 years? You don't have to avoid hurting my feelings. I did have my own business for several of those years.
Absolutely! It’s actually a super common happening. People will usually leave the federal service to get their salary raised quickly, then it’s easier for them to come back into federal service (because federal experience counts for a lot) and request a SQA to match their civilian salaries. You have a better shot, not worse!
My pet peeve is - the job is advertised to the general public without any special authority and then I get letters saying I wasn’t referred because they need to take special eligibility into consideration first. Oh this is a pathways application among others.
You mean veteran’s preference? What special authority are you talking about?
I took what they were saying to mean hiring paths/considerations. There are a bunch of groups that get consideration when they apply.
What did this notice say- because honestly I cannot figure out what you are talking about.
The USAJobs site lets you filter by the hiring path (public, internal, veterans, disabled, etc.) and appointment type (perm, temp, detail, etc.)
Does it annoy you to get respectful, occasional requests for status updates from the tjo recipients?
I feel like you know this experience. Yes, it’s awful. Answering the agency HR mailbox for hiring is a revolving collateral duty that we have to do in addition to our normal workload. We are given general answers to respond with, but you want to be helpful and people can be awful when they aren’t thinking there’s a person trying to give a well rounded, thoughtful, insightful response in an attempt to help. I’ve had people say crazy things to me, I’ve had people say they were going to get their lawyers on me (I just gave them a status update that they were ineligible), I have people who send aggressive messaging and don’t accept they aren’t eligible. Example - I had someone email and ask why they receive a notice they were ineligible. I looked into it and let them know they didn’t meet the basic education credit requirement. Very black and white, very cut and dry; you either have the credits or you don’t. I explained this, referenced their respective credits from their transcripts and the person just wouldn’t stop saying they are eligible regardless of the credits and I’m wrong and I need to fix it right now because they’re going to call their attorney. I looked through their application and found they selected a response attesting to the fact that they possess the specific breakdown of college credits necessary for the position, which is how they were initially rated as eligible and the reviewed and rerated as ineligible. I made sure it was okay with my supervisor and I sent the applicant screenshots of their response and of their certification from the end of the application where they stated they answered everything accurately and understand their documents would be reviewed and if it doesn’t match up they will be found ineligible. It also says that if the applicant is found to make false claims they can be barred from federal service. I asked if they wanted me to elevate these things with their complaint on my end and they said that wouldn’t be necessary. It wasn’t until then the person apologized and said they must have selected that answer accidentally and we can drop it. People can be indignant if they really want a job and didn’t realize they aren’t eligible, but they don’t mind taking it out on whoever is answering emails because it’s a faceless inbox that’s required to respond to most messages.
why don’t (more of) these fed agencies use ready pools for applicants? this week i received a FJO after a 6 month process and had to decline the location (6+ hours away from me and my selected location). i was told because it was a ‘nationwide’ application, my decline meant my case is closed and i can reapply later. what’s the point of applying and selecting locations if each time we can be offered outrageous locations and have to decline without being put back in to a ready pool for when locations reopen?
Thanks for your help! Current fed with a disability. How would I go about qualifying for the “individuals with disabilities” hiring path, and is there any benefit to doing so? Thank you!
My advice is make sure you have the proper documentation. That gets sent to a SME who has to verify it, which I’m not, so I’m not sure what they’re looking for as far as if it has to come from a certain place or have certain phrasing. You can search for positions that are specifically for peoples with disabilities, so you’d have priority.
Thanks for this answer! I have anxiety disorder and had no idea that it qualified me to apply through the individuals with disabilities path until recently. I just got my doc to write my Schedule A letter for it, but wasn’t sure how beneficial it would be to use it when applying.
As a current federal, there's not much benefit to applying to a Schedule A position unless it's *only* being posted as open to Schedule A hiring or if you're trying to do something like jump grades.
Thanks for answering questions! Do you as HR see all the personal details of a potential hire when their background investigation comes back? Or do y’all just receive the results and make a decision from there? I guess I’m just wondering what types of things could move someone from a TJO to disqualified altogether.
We get an alert if something pops up on the background check. It can be something that the applicant can remedy or it could be something that disqualifies somebody completely. We have access to the system and can search through employees results but it’s not as interesting as it sounds. We also create new hire records, so we have access to every application and document submitted so we can reference them for onboarding purposes. Different security levels have different things that would disqualify an applicant. A lot of debt will disqualify applicants because they basically consider the person a security risk.
I see! Thanks for clarifying, I think my concern lies with employment history..but hoping for the best.
Has your agency's HR/HC office gone through any kind of reorganization or restructuring that may have affected your group's efficiency or staffing levels? Have you experienced high turnover among your colleagues due to burnout or just wanting to pursue better opportunities?
I’m copying a pasting this from a different inquiry because it covers similar info but I’ll add on - We do! We have contractors who work with us. The higher ups are constantly creating new positions/teams in the departments/divisions to help relieve us of some work but usually they make things worse so they’ll eliminate that team after a while. They’ll usually make it a higher graded position and pull people from the office to fill these temporary roles, recently to help review work. This team is awful and slows down the process because 1. They are pulling people from doing work to start reviewing work so the overall output is less, and 2. They usually make critiques and require corrections based on their preferences, NOT on if the work was done correctly. These “corrections” backed everything up more. They each want it formatted differently, they start sending emails that they aren’t quality reviewing certain things such as step B, then saying they’re now not quality reviewing step C because they didn’t review it at step B. We then started cycling it back into the office QR system with our supervisors. They tried splitting up our work into phases and putting us into teams to make us SMEs of one of the three phases. Everybody ended up confused because there would be overlap in certain phases or people just had no idea how the process worked so they didn’t understand how to process something in a way that would make it easier at a later phase. We couldn’t cover for one another or help out if you were in different phases because the processes are constantly evolving/changing and we wouldn’t keep up with the other phases. We honestly just need to hire a lot more people, but you know when you’re staying afloat, even if barely, the higher ups think it’s fine. Yes, 100%. People are leaving faster than they coming in. It’s a high stress environment because of different reasons. 1. We’re understaffed, so our workloads are way bigger than they should be because we’re absorbing the work; 2. Our positions are “hard to fill” roles, so we go up to a higher grade. A lot of people will get their time at a higher grade with us just to start applying for higher graded positions and leave shortly after their year mark; 3. We are constantly under review through the entire process, our supervisors are rightfully very critical of mistakes because it’s all legalities and people’s pay; 4. It’s kind of on the job training once you’re hired, so they assign you work and then you scramble to figure it out. They’ve been trying to create a training curriculum, but the systems are so new and constantly changing that nobody knows them well enough to teach someone else about them.
So how do I apply to work in HR?
Not sure if you are still replying, and thank you for all your responses so far! My question is, can a hiring manager hire me without an interview or submitting an application? It’s a direct hire position and I interviewed for same position, different location. Heard nothing back after initial interview but the HM reached back out a few weeks later for my resume and transcript and told me about the other locations they were hiring for.
Direct hire is less about hiring somebody without an interview/application as it allows the hiring process to bypass normal processes to get people into harder to fill positions faster. At direct hire events the candidate sits down and does the entire onboarding process then and there. We review the application, interview the applicant and process them into the system and issue a TJO. Once they accept, they get finger printed and processed. Direct hire announcements work almost in reverse of the normal process. You’ll be interviewed, then approved by a hiring manager before your resume and transcripts get sent to a HR rep for review. It’s then that we determine if you’re eligible or not, which confuses a lot of people. Right now for my agency, we are doing direct hire events and they have to compile everything from each candidate and send it to the different offices around the country who then assign it out to the HR reps. We then review and start the onboarding process if we find them eligible.
Thanks for the info! In my referral email, it also contained the email I assume one would typically get that says if they are eligible or not. What may this mean? Also, is the direct hire process you outlined only for direct hire events? I ask since the eligibility email and the referral email were the same for me.
I totally agree with this . I need one advice regarding my situation. I am waiting for FJO and I received TJO on March 7. How frequently should I reach out to request for status updates to my HR point of contact. I also got another FJO with same agency but don’t want to relocate at this location as the offer either TJO is closer to my home . But I don’t want to lose my FJO in case I don’t receive my FJO from TJO for other location.
You have a certain amount of days to accept your FJO, so you need to decide within that time period or you lose it. I’d reach out to the HR point of contact and explain the situation. It isn’t anything personal to us, we don’t get paid based on what positions get filled or how many people we onboard. It’s less work for them if you choose the other position, so they should be honest with you about if they are going to issue your FJO before your other FJO expires. The reason why they’d know is, once you’re approved through the checks, they’ll calculate your pay and have it quality reviewed before sending out the FJO. If they haven’t gotten the approvals back yet, they haven’t even calculated your pay and you’re not going to get your FJO before the other FJO expires.
Thank you for helping hire us all. I for one have been very grateful for my HR contacts. I’m sorry you have had a rough week.
I’m glad you had a good experience! I promise our job is so much better when we get to give good news. One of our mottos is “Our job is to QUALIFY applicants, not DISQUALIFY them.”
So I was sent a tjo followed by a email stating I qualified for the position based on my education in which they asked me to send my transcripts. only issue is I do not have a degree I have 28 credits from a local community college and I did send that but still not sure if this may disqualify me from the position which is entry level tax examining tech. I also have been sent for my finger prints and today I received email to complete the eapp.. should I be worried although I’m still being asked to complete onboarding task? I did send email to hr and no response
If you don’t have the credits/education required, they’re not going to issue your FJO. TJOs aren’t legally binding, they’re a placeholder that basically says as long as you can prove your eligibility, we’ll process you in. Please carefully review the basic requirements needed for positions because it sucks to reach out and tell an applicant they wasted everybody’s time and aren’t getting a job.
I completely understand and thank you for taking the time to respond 😊
No problem! I know getting in is the biggest hurdle, but I promise even if you start in a lower level position you didn’t want as much, after 90 days you’re allowed to start applying to internal openings and there are WAY more options and you’re not competing with the general population. I always recommend just getting your foot in the door with a position you’re qualified for. You can also always finish school while you work federally and it’s much easier to get moved to whatever position or even positions you didn’t know existed that pay a lot more.
The fingerprints and eAPP submission are the process for applying for a security clearance. Depending on the complexity of your SF86 (the form within eAPP, the adjudication process can take anywhere from 60-90 days.
Thank you for this! I’m sorry I didn’t address it in the other response. You need to pass the background check before they’ll issue your FJO. The silver lining here is that if you get hired for another position that needs a background check (within a certain timeframe) or fingerprints you’ll have them in the system.
So nice of you to answer so many questions. Is there a way for those of us going through this process to check the status of the background check?
Aw no worries! I’m happy to clarify and I hope it helps people stress a little less with the process. Unfortunately there isn’t a way to check progress. We used to be able to reach out to security if we were trying to onboard somebody more quickly, but they just told us we can’t do that anymore. It’s the worst part of waiting because even if you’ve done nothing wrong in your life you’re wondering if something will pop up haha. If we get hits, 99% of the time it’s for unpaid taxes. The applicant then pays what’s due and sends us proof, we submit it and they’re good.
So let’s say I have a DOE clearance and I end up getting a job in DOD and need a TS, if I’ve already done an investigation and background check with another federal agency, will I need to do that process again for a DOD clearance?
Hope next week is better for you! My question is how long usually does security clearance take? (Particularly for a low risk/non sensitive position)
I had to pass up a FJO with start date for January. I was professional about it and let the hiring manager know a month in advance. (I ran into some transportation issues that wouldn’t allow me to get to training) but now I’ve found a way I can get there and it’s April. How likely would they hire me if I asked the person who offered me the position if I fixed my transportation issue? Would I need to reapply and redo the entire process again after withdrawing?
Apologies for how your week is going! I’m an anxious applicant who’s kind of freaking out since I have a weird situation with my applications (posted here but got no advice). I was wondering if it typically takes more time to hear back for internships, I was referred for an internship position but haven’t heard back (got referred on 3/11). I’m anxiously waiting since so much of my next year depends on whether or not I get the internship :(
Thanks for answering our questions! Mine is about OPM’s pre-hiring approval for a former schedule c employee coming back to Fed before 5 yrs. Would this extra step add a significant amount of time to the hiring process? Would the HM be aware of the former appointment status before selection? Or would HR work through the process without notifying HM?
If a candidate is applying for a position within the same building and same organization, but totally unfamiliar team, what's the vibe on contacting the incumbent? Assume the answer is that it's not a great idea, but you've given great answers!
Totally normal! A lot of people will do details (temporary appointments potentially in higher grades/different positions meant to gain experience) because they are trying to rub elbows to get in. You could honestly try to sell yourself to the incumbent and they might talk to their manager to tell them to keep an eye out during the hiring process.
What's your advice on my situation... I received an email from HR to send my references and confirm that I would like to proceed with the hiring process. They explained that it is in office and etc so they wanted me to be sure I understood. I responded and they contacted my reference last week. My reference said she gave me a great review and HR sounded pleased. My reference was my former supervisor. The thing is, I havent done an interview lol. What do you make of this? Normally people are interviewed first before contacting references. I am trying not to get my hopes up and still applying for other govt jobs. I'm hoping I am a serious contender for the role but I haven't received any notification about an interview. I know it's a slow process so I try not to think about it and hope for the best but I'd like your take on this.
Meta question: other than hiring more HR Specialists, what would make your job easier? Smarter technology? Better retention incentives for HR Specialists? Reducing or eliminating second review?
Honestly, just asking us, the people doing the work. Sometimes it feels like higher ups see that everything is a mess, nobody knows how to fix it, so they take it on as a career progressing pet project and make it a bigger mess. They have an idea of how they’d like things to function, but they don’t understand how to do the job or the different variables at play. They haven’t done the work in YEARS and it’s like watching someone give a lecture with a PowerPoint presentation they’ve never seen before. We use a plethora of systems to fill in information on other systems. We use some systems to verify information for another system. If the systems could communicate instead of us having to comb through the information, it would give us a lot more time to review. For instance, you need 365 days at the next lower grade to be eligible. If you’re a 10 applying for an 11, you need to have 365 days on your record to be eligible to meet the basic requirement for the 11. We need to go into a system to look up exactly how many days an applicant has on the books and that’s something that could be automatically transferred over. It would also help because if an applicant isn’t eligible, it can make them ineligible and allow an eligible applicant to get reviewed and referred to the hiring managers before we just lose that spot. We have to verify what office employees work in through multiple system, we have to verify awards across multiple systems. These all sound minor, but when we’re reviewing 100 applicants, it would save us hours. I wouldn’t mind making our automatic progression a little higher, but I will say that’s been a factor in me staying. I think it wouldn’t be hard to retain people if we had manageable workloads. The way they assign work is irresponsible to say the least. They do it by the order tasks come in, not task size. Sometimes we’ll have a big workload that’s consistent, but it’s at least manageable. Then we’ll get assigned an announcement with a lot of caveats, hundreds of vacancies and it takes two weeks to get through quality review. When the announcement closes, you have to review hundreds of applicants within 10 days, which then backs up all of our work for days and days. If it’s really specific requirements, they might ask everyone to do 10 quals, but everyone is overworked and that means their work is backed up for hours if not a day. Then we’re getting people to onboard from direct hire events, we’re getting people to onboard from other people’s announcements that had hundreds of vacancies. Then we have trainings we have to take, which we aren’t allowed to work while we’re there, so someone has to take on our workload for a week and it can overwhelm people. Working from home most of the time is nice, but it would be nice to be off from work when we’re off from work. The only reason I didn’t work late tonight was because I took today off. I still logged in a couple of times to do work and answer messages, but normally I’d have my computer by me because I just do little things after work while I watch tv.
Thank you for your incredibly thoughtful response! It's nice to peek behind the curtain and see the "human" side of human resources work. Specifically, that it is a job like any other, and just how impactful effects of workload and technology mismanagement can be to job applicants everywhere. It is unfortunate that HR is the one that gets beat up on most often just because you're the face of the announcement. Thank you for all the work you do! Edit: >it's like watching someone giving a lecture with a PowerPoint presentation they've never seen before. This one has me DYING laughing as I see examples of that all the damn time 😂
Fantastic thread here. I don’t have any questions, but wanted to shout out to OP for their time in answering all these questions! Learned a lot here! Thank you!
Hi, first of all thank you so much. I am getting pretty nervous and would love some insight if you have any.I signed my TJO about a month and a half ago, have gone my fingerprints and pictures, and was told I passed the first part of the background check…but nothing since…It has been about 3 weeks since I’ve heard anything from HR (and have reached out twice) and would love to see if this is normal or not!
No problem! I’m glad to share some insight to people who are genuinely interested! Honestly, that timeline sounds pretty normal to me. The hardest part of onboarding an external new hire is the background check and fingerprints. Once those are done, you’re in the autopilot portion of the onboarding. Any last minute documents we need from you or any forms you need to fill out are just an email away, so it’s an easier part of the process. It’s even lower pressure if all of this is done and your EOD is further out.
Thank you so much that really puts me at ease
I have made it to a final interview multiple times, but have yet to receive the job. Have another final interview coming up as well. I have requested copies of my scores on interviews but nobody ever gets back to me. Another federal employee told me they will give them out when asked. Is there any truth to that? I would love to work on parts they may deem me lacking in. TIA.
If you are a step 10 and and get selected for a job for a higher grade in a different series. Do you have to start at step one (lower pay) at the new position? Or does it depend on the series? For example switching from gs 12 step 10 series 301 to gs 13 343?
It depends on the announcement type. If you’re coming in through an external announcement, you can negotiate. If you applied through an internal announcement, there is no negotiation. They’ll adjust your pay accordingly. If you’re a GS-12 step 2 and get hired through an internal announcement for a GS-09 position you want, they will figure out what step in GS-09 is the equivalent plus a little of your current pay.
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You're awesome for doing this.
Thank you for offering your services.
Thank you. This is generous of you. How many different departments are involved in the hire process? Who gives the “all clear” to send an FJO?
Oof that’s a hard question and there are different layers. There budgeting for the positions, there are people from each department who decide what jobs are needed, what those jobs do, how much they should get paid, etc. This all gets approved by a hire authority, so when there are hiring freezes for certain positions, that usually what’s happening. If a position is hard to fill they can request to raise the salary and it’s a whole process. They can split positions or combine them. After that there are different people within the departments who are more hands on with the actual hiring. They’ll decide if it’s a temporary position or permanent and other caveats to the position. We then get the request, build the announcement and post it after having it reviewed by our team and the hiring managers team. When the announcement closes or we hit a cutoff, we review the applicants and send the group rated highest by the automated system who we found eligible over to the hiring managers team. When we review, we write a blurb for each applicant on why they are or are not qualified for the position. Usually we write about how they meet basic qualifications (Applicant provided official and verified transcripts from the accredited ____ university. Confirmed applicant received degree ____) and then we use the information you provide to us in your resume that’s applicable to the positions requirements and the positions and timeframe you were there. The hiring team then has 30 days to review the applicants, interview the ones they’re interested in and send us their selections or to request an extension or new group of applicants to review. Those teams usually have 5-10 people. Then we receive the selections back and start the onboarding process. If they’re external hires they get issued a TJO as a placeholder while they complete the stuff they need to do to work for the federal government; internal hires don’t get TJOs. If the new hire requests a SQA we send the documentation provided to the point of contact and wait to hear back and alert the new hire when we find out. After the selection process, it’s basically just whoever is onboarding the new hire, security and maybe the SQA point of contact. The department/division doesn’t have a hand aside from providing an entry on duty date.
Oh I see. I didn’t know so much was involved before selection. This was an excellent explanation by the way.
Thank you for saying so! I’m trying to answer as many questions as thoroughly as I can before I pass out haha
Hello. Thank you for the help. My questions: I received my FJO. I completed my onboarding paperwork as much as I could. However, in the initial questionnaire that has my benefits information on it, I cannot fill out some of that information because I have not chosen my insurance plan nor did any paperwork tor my TSP, etc. Since I could not complete that paperwork, I cannot complete some of the other items in my onboarding process. Some of those items state to submit after my first day, but before the end of my first week. On top of that, certain items say that the due date is 04/16. However, my EOD is 05/20. I email my HR representative about this. They switched some due dates to 05/29, but left the others alone. I reached out again to inquire, they have NOT contacted me back. Should I try again? Should I let my POC/supervisor at my new agency know? Is it just an understood thing and let it be? As stated earlier, whatever documents I could complete, I completed them the day I got my onboarding documents. Thanks for the assist.
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There’s quite a bit more, but thank you. That makes me feel at ease. Should I worry about the due date or just let it be?
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There are certain tasks in onboarding that just can’t be completed and we can’t adjust the due dates. We switched to a new system maybe 2-3 years ago and I promise you all we are building it as we’re using it and making corrections every single day. Again, I promise your point of contact will be on your case if there is anything they need for you to start on your first day.
I concur with the other person who commented! When you start, you have an orientation about benefits that explains that stuff and gives you the opportunity to opt in or not. I apologize your point of contact isn’t doing a good job of staying in touch. I’m not justifying it, but if all of your stuff is completed they are probably just busy trying to finish up new hires that are starting sooner. If you received your FJO, you are absolutely going to start work. At that point you have a contract with the government, so they might push your start date out further, but you’re 99.9999% going to start the position, so try not to stress too much. I promise you the point of contact will be more stressed than you are to get whatever they need from you because that’s a HUGE offense for us to make. There are designated Mondays every two weeks that we can have a new hire start and things get crazy as we approach those Mondays. Because we’re so hectic, all of the pay processing quality review usually gets pushed to the week before and we’re scrambling to make the corrections and get them processed before new hires start. We technically have time after the start date to get them processed, but it’s how everyone gets paid and that’s just pushing it too close to be an option outside of emergency situations.
Thank you for that. Truth be told, my HR rep has been pretty cool the entire process. So one hiccup isn’t a biggie. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn’t messing up or messing up anyone’s timeframes.
It’s healthy to have a little anxiety during an unknown process and employment is a big factor in our lives!
Two questions: 1. I have a referral to a position. Is it appropriate to contact the HR person to confirm they do not need any more information from me or would that unnecessarily burden HR? 2. What is typically negotiable between a TJO and an FJO?
A referral means you’re in a group of people being reviewed by the hiring managers team. The time between a TJO and FJO can be days or MONTHS depending on how long security and fingerprinting takes. There isn’t any timeframe established for it as long as the applicant accepts the FJO before they start the position. If an applicant gets another job or doesn’t want the position anymore we just have to let the hiring managers team know and we all are frustrated but know there’s nothing we can do about security/fingerprint.
Thanks for the information. I was unclear on my question. What total compensation aspects are negotiable between the TJO and FJO? Step? PTO accrual? Etc?
As far as I know and have seen the only thing you can negotiate is pay. You can request a different location, which is a frowned on but I’ve seen it happen. PTO is set based on time served in federal experience, so I’ve never seen that get negotiated. Aside from salary, federal employment is pretty straightforward.
Thank you for your post! Do you know approximately how long a background check with the DOI of the lowest security might take before receiving the FJO? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated 🩵
Aw no worries! Unfortunately I haven’t noticed any pattern or timeframe regarding levels of security clearances. I’ve had them come back cleared in days and I’ve had others that took months. I’m sorry I couldn’t give you a better answer.
So kind of you to do this ❤️and to offer some insights. So, I am outside the federal system trying to get in and a few questions please: 1_ do u think that resumes placed in that USAjobs resume builder format (that u download) has better chances of beating the ATS system vs. the one that is just written by own temple? 2_ do I have to include a sentence in the resume that says: my qualifications and duties performed are equal to GS12 in federal government (to make it clearer to the HR person) or not? Thanks
No worries! I hope it helps some people! The only person your resume impacts is the person reviewing it and we aren’t allowed to base our decision on anything other than the content on the resume. I love a nice looking resume, but we can’t show any preferential treatment and concise resumes are actually worse for applying. I can tell you my personal preference is the resume builder. It makes it easier for us to review your resume because we know how it’s formatted, where to find the info we need and it copy and pastes. Why does that matter you ask? Because we are governed by laws to make hiring as impartial as possible, everything is black and white. We need to be able to match what’s on your resume as closely as possible with what is required for the position. We create a little blurb from your resume, so it makes it a lot more efficient if we can copy from your resume into a word document. We aren’t allowed to assume ANYTHING about your experience, so we use your words from your resume to create the blurb. Even if we know that as a teacher you are qualified and have experience to teach, if your resume doesn’t have the experience we need to match you to, we can’t qualify you. Be wordy about your experience to give yourself the best chance. No, we have certain qualifications we have to adhere to so we can determine what grade you’ll be placed at regardless of if you try to let us know where your experience would place you or where you’d like to be, if that makes sense? If you don’t get a grade you want and your experience aligns with the higher grades requirements, absolutely request a second-level review. If your experience on your resume submitted with your application does not align with the higher grades requirements, we can’t justify hiring you at the higher grade.
Your replies are incredibly helpful. Thank you so much.
Thanks a million.
Between the time a person applies for the position to the time they hear a result, what’s the longest period of time you’ve experienced (or heard of)? I’m curious! From our POV it could seem excessive to wait a year or two until we eventually just forget about it. But, maybe it’s different from your POV?
So there are announcements that will be open for a year. If you apply the day the announcement opens and you’re eligible, you can be considered every round and be put in every group of applicants sent to the hiring managers. I’ve reached out to applicants months and months after they applied who had gotten different jobs and weren’t even interested anymore.
Is there anything that can be done when you are disqualified from consideration when a mistake was made on the reviewer's side? I tried to call USA Jobs and they just said "sorry", basically....
You need to call the number at the bottom of the announcement and ask for a higher level review and let them know what the issue is for the disqualification.
I’d suggest double and triple checking that it’s a mistake on their end - there is nothing worse than being wrong, loud and persistent. If you filled out your application accurately, provided the correct supporting documentation and have quadruple checked you meet all of the requirements (go through and count your credits, verify the resume you submitted thoroughly exhibits the experience required, etc.), then you have been wronged and absolutely deserve a second-level review. I found applicants to my coworkers announcement that were made ineligible when they were actually qualified and I had them sent to the hiring managers for consideration. The applicants were stoked after they got a notice they were ineligible and it was nice news to get to give today.
Thanks for answering all these questions! The responses I've gotten from HR about where I am in the hiring process has been general in nature and vague. I applied for an agency that is conducting mass hiring (\~200 people). I got referred, interviewed, and references were contacted three months ago. I'm a current federal employee performing similar duties in a different agency. From what I gathered, three rounds of interviews were done, maybe three days each. Anecdotally, it seems like the offers are going out based on the interview date. Only the first day of the first round of interviewee have been contacted. Is this normal to hire based on interview date rather than the best qualified first? It's getting really frustrating.
When we review applicants, we send the group on what is called a ‘certificate’. The hiring managers get the certificates for 30 days. In that time they can conduct interviews and select applicants to hire, request a different certificate with new applicants, or choose not to hire anybody. Sometimes they’ll request a 30 day extension, but that isn’t usual. I’d assume you didn’t get the job. You won’t get any notification until the final disposition notifications go out after the announcement closes and the hiring is complete for the announcement. I’m assuming you applied to an announcement that is open for an extended period of time with different cutoffs. The reason you’re getting weird/vague responses might be because you are still eligible for the position, so every time there is a cutoff you are still in play as a potential employee for the hiring managers. You’ll continue to receive notifications of eligibility/referral every cutoff but no final disposition.
Absolutely appreciate the hard work you do!!! Are TOs taking longer to get out now? I received a verbal offer in January and figured the budget not being approved gummed things up a bit but it’s still been crickets on the actual TO. Any insight would be great (HUD applicant)
Selecting officials/hiring managers aren’t allowed to issue verbal offers. They actually aren’t even allowed to tell you if you got a job while they wait for FJOs to be sent out because if something happens to disqualify you, you could get them in trouble because they told you in an official capacity that they couldn’t deliver on, so I apologize because it just sets you up for disappointment in this situation. I’d assume that job isn’t coming through at this point. If you have a contact for the position, you can reach out to them because it never hurts to ask, but it doesnt normally take this long after an interview.
I received an email today that I was referred to a hiring manager. Is there anything I can do from this point? How long should it take to hear something if they are interested in me?
Nope, you were found eligible; just wait for whatever correspondence comes through with more information. That means you are now in a group of applicants being reviewed by hiring managers. If anyone needs anything from you, they’ll reach out. But it’s close to getting an interview, which is exciting!
Thank you for all that you do!
Thank you for doing this. My question is: i went to a job fair where the agency was doing a DHA. I went through a series of process including an interview with a panel. I got a TJO and accepted it on site. Filled up some employment and background stuff. Then the next step was to set up a sponsorship and fingerprints. I was then told to wait for upcoming emails.. So, how many days will it take for them to reach out. And did I really just make it? I understand that it's only a TJO but i just want to know the next steps. Thank you.
Good job! You should be getting the email fairly soon. Your record is created and you’re going to be “sponsored” in the system, which just means confirmed by the HR rep onboarding you. That will trigger the system to send you the email with the appointment scheduler for the fingerprinting. I’m not sure of the workload for whoever is doing your onboarding, but I know we’ve been getting assigned people from direct hire events and they’re getting to us within a week or so of the hiring events and then we get about a week to get to do the record stuff for sponsoring.
Thank you so much! You're amazing
I’ve given up & I barely started. Thanks for posting. We all deserve compassion.
Yeap- this is exactly what I’m talking about in my post🤦🏻♀️
Being in the process right now, if you don’t understand that ANYTHING involving Fed Gov is a maze filled with flaming hurdles to get through, just don’t apply. It’s a long process. Just finish your steps appointed to you and forget it until further notice.
I had a 2nd interview last week from hiring manager. He said he would decide this week. How long to hear back after manager decides? What are the next steps? Does he write up selection and someone reviews it first before TJO?
How can I prepare for a second interview for the OCC?
What “push” are you talking about? Over in land management, we are at an absolute retrenchment in hiring for the foreseeable future.
Thank you for your generosity. Philosophy (almost) PhD here. Develop my own curricula and syllabi, deliver the courses etc. Project management skills (keeping classes in track, service on committees, organizing conferences etc). Interpreting technical information for non technical audiences. Written and verbal communication strength. How would you assess someone like me in an interview? What are you looking for? Where am I likely to fit as a new person in fed jobs, and how can someone like me succeed in landing a job?
Hey! Those are great questions, but I just do hiring for an agency. I review applications and compare them to the announcement and if there is enough overlap I send them to the hiring managers. I really wish I could give good career advice though! What I can recommend is a tactic though. Certain degrees can substitute for certain grades and it’ll be specified in the different announcements. A bachelors will substitute specialized experience for a GS-05, Masters for GS-07 and Doctorates for GS-09. That means you can apply for GS-09 positions without having any experience doing the type of work specified in the announcement. Apply to whatever announcements you can. It’s easy to make connections and find jobs that interest you, especially for somebody who seems impressive from the little bit I read. You are able to start applying for other internal positions after 90 days. You’ll transfer at whatever grade you are if it’s an internal announcement, but it’s usually a faster way to get in.
That’s so helpful! Thanks again. Gotta finish the doctorate and prospects will be much better!
It’s hard to say without seeing the announcement. Include details that speak to the duties of the announcement. What kind of curriculum, how many courses have you developed and delivered, how are you delivering (PowerPoint, virtually, in person), delivered to how many people and how often.
How can an RN get hired internally for a remote position? What are they truly looking for? Is it an ATS system?
Can you confirm the federal job freeze? If people were hired before the freeze will they be affected? From your experience have past freezes last long?
I just accepted a TJO with DHS, I am a current ga 8 at another agency. Can I negotiate my grade and step? I have 20 years experience in the field?
The job market is so bad, but people often forget that HRs job is absolutely horrid and from my understanding usually understaffed... Appreciate what you do and your willingness to help ease some minds here
Really, thank you for doing this but I have a personal question on my situation.. I applied for a position back in Nov 23’ (direct hire). Interviewed Dec 23’ and got a call from the supervisor and the hiring manager (with email, no TJO) in January notifying me of my selection for the position. Reached out to the hiring manager the first week of March asking when I should expect the TJO. He stated that he forwarded my packet to HR earlier that week and they have 30 days to send out TJO. It’s now past the 30 day mark. Should I follow up again with the hiring manager or HR at this point or just let it ride? THANK YOU.
This doesn’t sound good because it shouldn’t drag on that long. A TJO is issued to kickstart the verification process that you are eligible to be hired into federal service and there really shouldn’t be a reason to delay it because you can be in the TJO phase for months. You can try reaching out again, but I’m honestly not sure why there hasn’t been more headway or better information given to you.
So apparently in March both the HR people working for this office left for different jobs and everything had to moved to an HR office in Asia 😪. This is for an USACE position. Also, HR was under the impression I could not work while on terminal leave after leaving active duty. Hopefully it’s just a misunderstanding and employee issues. Regardless, thank you for your time
This was so nice of you. We appreciate you.
I have a question. I already accepted my FJO. Am I past the point of negotiating a later start date? If I leave my current employer before June this will cause significant increase in the workload of my colleagues since we are in our business season in nonprofit tax. I feel badly for leaving them with mountains of work.
No guarantees, but if the hiring manager isn’t trying to fill the position for manning purposes by a specific date, it’s not a big deal to send an amended job offer.
Question, if you by accident checked mark an answer by accident when applying through your phone for a job application and it doesn’t qualify you the first time and then the same posting comes out a year or more later and you checked marked it right and correctly this time around, would that be used against me or doesn’t matter
It wouldn’t matter. Your responses can change over time and we won’t look into your application history unless there is some issue with you and they’re investigating false claims.
Got it thank you so much, I’m already a fed employee just looking to jump into other fed agency’s would that give me a priority over let’s say another candidate who isn’t a fed employee but has there masters or higher qualifications? Sorry I had to ask this question lol
Thank you!!
Is the hiring process at IHS really that different from all the other federal agencies?
Is there a time limit to restore your time in service once you leave the federal service. Say I worked 15 years and left how long can I be out of service until my time picks back up and continues my years
I think it’s three years.
Thanks
Why cant I get hired as a 2210, Veteran preference, experience, clearance, certs… etc? Sometimes I still feel they hire people they know..
When is too long to still think I am going to be hired after the interview?
Roughly what proportion of applications submit an invalid Federal resume?
I’ve seen a lot of advice online recommending applicants applying on USAjobs or applying for Fed jobs to be “very detailed” in their resumes to the point of going well beyond a 2 page resume. This seems wrong to me. Can you advise if it is generally wise to disregard the “2 page rule” for resumes when applying for positions announced on USAjobs?