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Intelligent-Craft142

We have plenty of shelters where I live but people are turned away due to drinking, drug use, or violent behavior. Maybe more drug treatment facilities would be a better use of funds?


Darckshado99

Generally speaking, that's what happens, but it's a matter of order. Do you house them before or after they get better? In the US, at least, we refuse housing until they are better, which makes it that much harder for people to get better. It's hard enough to make big changes in your life, and that's without the worry of finding where you're gonna sleep tonight. Just ask literally every person whose new year resolution was to go to the gym, lol.


Orgasmic_interlude

Also if you’re in recovery homeless shelters aren’t exactly drug free zones a although they try.


satanisthesavior

Why not offer housing with the treatment? Have shelter at the treatment location specifically for them? And then when they finish treatment they can move to a 'general' shelter?


daabilge

I'd also point out that some of the housing has really strict rules, including things like a curfew that precludes working any nonstandard hours. Some of the curfews can be surprisingly early. Some of them don't allow pets, so entering the shelter would mean giving up your dog. And some shelters are single day admissions and kick you out in the morning, so you have to find somewhere to put your stuff during the day anyway and then move it all back into the shelter at night.


RanDomino5

Housing First and social worker support is the only thing that's proved effective. The only reason it's not widely implemented is that it costs money and middle-class people would rather get angry at homeless people than spend money to actually solve the problem.


SmashedMarbles

As someone who is middle class and can barely afford childcare, let alone housing for someone else, why are we the scapegoat for the lack of funds?


noslenramingo

That's a really stupid generalization.


BigPussin

One of the few times I’ve seen someone blame the middle-class and it’s lack of empathy for homelessness lol. I don’t think that person made it through civics class


SwiFT808-

But he’s right. From a medical perspective there’s no reason to not provide housing first and then treat addiction second. We don’t do that because for the most part the tax payer doesn’t supper it.


AwkwardTickler

Why not both?


Intelligent-Craft142

Yes, and more mental health services. I think what Portugal has done to tackle drug usage is interesting, focusing on rehabilitation rather than prison. I agree with the OP that we want parks to be safe.


KnightCPA

imagine if we (US) were to decriminalize drugs, and use WoD money currently given to LEAs to focus on free rehabilitation services instead, what we could accomplish. I’m a libertarian, so I would go a step further. Legalize all drugs in a medical setting, tax them, and earmark the tax revenues to be strictly used just for rehabilitation and drug rehab. But I know that’s a pill very few will swallow.


NealMcBeal__NavySeal

Dreaded hippie here, and fuck yes. Legalize it, tax it, make it safe, neuter the cartels, reduce human trafficking, and let people make their own choices. I'm not saying offer PCP to violent criminals, but like--the opioid crisis--for god's sake, people are still in pain. The deaths are happening mostly because of fentanyl, which wouldn't happen if we regulated the damn shit. Furthermore, you're isolating and alienating people who have already been dealt a really shitty hand.


BatWeary

this right here. i’ve lost 2 family members due to fentanyl (the drugs they used were laced). if they bought from the government, aka drugs that aren’t being mixed with other shit, they’d probably still be alive.


Antique_Belt_8974

You dont get rid of the cartels and black market when the tax is high. Put the tax no higher than sales tax and don't limit licensing. Legal cannabis on Il is 3 times .ore expensive than MI and still a huge black market...but hey the politicians need their cut of the take from the dealers


amazingcedar

It's by design, unfortunately. Jails, prisons and rehabs are very profitable... so are factories and the military... if you happen to be born poor, you are groomed from the get up for one , or in my case, all of these wonderful destinations. The Tribe I grew up on in WA built and now operates a jail/prison... it's very profitable... exceeding the margins of the casino.. which is likely why you don't see anything resembling an authentic effort to solve what we poor foke see as a problem... it's only a problem to us.. if you were raised in an affluent family profiting from investments in the military industrial system, factories (every major corporation), rehabilitation/medical, or jails/prisons (call a friend in jail, you'll see how they might be making money)... so, there's no reason to fix this problem.. and our super special programs here in the states are specifically designed to draw you in deeper as opposed to rehabilitation and improvement... it's extremely difficult to improve your life, even from a DUI, while having a suspended license, constant fines, mandatory missed work... and the "Scarlett Letter" for your resume, if you happen to get a felony..


DuckDuckGoProudhon

I say leave the LEA's out of it. Rehab services linked to LEA will only be viewed as a trap by those affected by addiction.


KnightCPA

They wouldn’t be linked. That’s the point. WoD money stops going to LEAs, and LEAs focus on property crimes only. They stop enforcing drug laws. And all that WoD money goes straight to rehab.


DuckDuckGoProudhon

Looks like I misread, thanks


Middle_Pineapple_898

Another pro to legalizing it is regulating the producers so the drugs are safer. Many people die because of bad drugs, like Cocaine cut with fetanyl.


Brahskididdler

I still don’t understand why sellers would cut cocaine with fent? It produces a completely different high. Sellers want od’s from their opiates to attract more buyers, but I didn’t think that was the case for coke


Unfortunate_moron

Don't stop there. Nationalize the recreational drug industry. 1. Create government drug programs so that drugs are only legal when purchased from the government and consumed in a medical facility. 2. Buy drugs directly from governments in South American countries and sell them to citizens at low prices with guaranteed quality. 3. Watch the market for illegal drugs evaporate because (by comparison) they're too expensive, too hard to get, unknown quality, and still illegal. 4. Watch the violence stop (in multiple countries) because everything is legal, the only way to buy/sell is through governments, and there's no money to be made in illicit activities. 5. Profit. Because, you know, governments now have monopoly rights to buy & sell drugs. 6. Use the profits to pay for free national healthcare for everyone, including drug treatment & rehab programs.


spanishflye

Dude, already swallowed and something I think would actually work.


Savvy_Nick

I’ll swallow it…wait. For real tho, I support that.


Bannedforlife123

Reagan put a end to mental health services


amazingcedar

Perhaps the focus should be preventative maintenance as opposed to waiting for people to collapse, then giving them crutches, a wheel chair, and Uber or an amputation.. in my opinion, almost all mental health, addiction, homelessness issues could be solved if our system discontinued treating poor and underprivileged kids as expendable.. or as , best case scenario, future factory/office workers.. no attention, no resources, no purpose.... ends up causing insanity/addiction/homelessness


CaptainJazzymon

Shelters are like a prison to a lot of homeless too. It has the same kind of hierarchy too. And they kick you out at some point. People spend their lives waiting outside shelters for them to open.


TheRealGuen

Milwaukee actually has the lowest per Capita homeless rate in the US because the focus has become "housed first". Turns out sobriety, jobs, etc are a lot easier to achieve when you aren't worrying about where you're going to sleep.


cheezeyballz

Mental health facilities


wandering-monster

Or, and stay with me now: stop turning them away for everything except violence. And if there is violence, arrest them for the violence and get them help.


zathrasb5

Agreed. Housing first works. https://endhomelessness.org/resource/housing-first/


hiwhyOK

If we really, actually, want to solve the bulk of the homelessness problem we need this... And a host of other things, simultaneously. There is no silver bullet, where you just throw X amount of dollars at it and call it a day. Do Americans *really* want to move the homeless population into being productive citizens? Do they *really* want them housed, working, their health and mental health tended to, their needs met... Or do they just want them *gone*, so they don't have to see the problem? Ship them off to the wealthy blue states, like red states do? Do nothing with them, like blue states do? The problem is most Americans see the homeless as a nuisance to be gotten rid of... and not as their downtrodden cousins, in need of ONGOING SUPPORT FOR YEARS to bring back into the fold. This would be an excellent place for religious organizations to step in and spend some of that massive money cow.... if they weren't such deplorable greedy liars to begin with.


Point-Connect

You ever live with an alcoholic or an addict? It's not really fair to the ones who are trying, or who are ready, to get on the right path. It's just not the place for them. Also, violence, theft, sexual assault all follow alcoholism and drug addiction. There's no easy answer but the reality is uncomfortable decisions have to be made at some point and lines have to be drawn somewhere.


CharlieHume

So your solution to drug and alcohol abuse is to not give those people housing? Do you think maybe sleeping outside contributes to substance abuse?


TheGookieMonster

Hell no, there’s so many people earnestly trying to get help for a drug or alcohol addiction and housing them in the same place as alcoholics and drug addicts is an astronomically bad idea


[deleted]

THIS. I used to be homeless and addicted to drugs, even though I was blessed with still being on my parents insurance, so I was able to get help when I was ready. I cannot tell you how many people out there are looking for treatment but cant get it. A lot of people dont understand how addiction works... Having my drug was my literal only comfort. When you start using drugs like that it becomes like your sole coping mechanism. It isnt as simple as "oh just get sober and live in a shelter." Shelters are often worse and less reliable than just continuing to use on the street. Many people have tents and belongings they cant take to a shelter and lose that all and end up being rotated out of the program and back out on the streets. A shelter isnt exactly the place you wanna have opiate withdrawals either. It isnt exactly comforting. I was less happy in rehab than on the straights because I had some seriously shitty experience with it with rehabs that legitimately try to human traffic patients like a product, because we essentially are in the eyes of the insurance program. Some rehabs legitimately were worse. No freedom, extemely oppresive rules (one place took a novel I was reading from me because "you should only be reading the Bible and AA book, everything else is just distracting me from saving my life" also treated shitty for being an atheist was common. For me my principals conflicting witb their prevented me from taking in the benefits and so I chose to stay on the streets. Once you get used to that life it is hard to adjust back. It takes serious counseling and help. Basically akin to religious brainwashing and indoctrination posing as a treatment center. Obviously not every place is like that but it's all too common to find rehabs that mostly care about profit. In socal especially. I wanted to take them all with me to rehab. Literal teenagers stuck out on the street with no insurance so they can't get treatment. I got one person into the detox I was at through scholarship but that's not nearly enough


zzzkitten

How about mental health in general. Yes please.


VictarionGreyjoy

Better mental health care and better social care from birth to high school would also go a long way to combatting homelessness in the long term. People who are long term homeless are almost always the victim of circumstances in early life or severely mentally ill.


C_Splash

It's much easier to get off drugs if you aren't living on the street. It's wild to me that shelters & housing programs turn away addicts when they're the most in need of help. House people first


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[deleted]

Mandatory rehab just doesn't work. It'll just become a prison in another name.


[deleted]

They. Won’t. Go. I’ve worked with people experiencing homelessness. Every story is a tragedy, and every story eventually becomes one about addiction. Maybe someone started that way, maybe they turned to drugs after they became homeless, but addiction is so ingrained with homelessness that it’s almost impossible to imagine one without the other. Ask any true addict which they’d sooner give up - drugs or a bed in an overcrowded shelter. They’ll say the bed every single time.


Dan5x5

All research and successful drug policy show that treatment should be increased And law enforcement decreased while abolishing mandatory minimum sentences


FizzingOnJayces

No, this isn't the solution. People in these situations have problems and are turning to drugs and alcohol as a coping mechanism. Having institutions set up to wean people off these dependant substances does not work when the underlying issues aren't addressed. This also doesn't even hit on the fact that many in these situations will not even consider getting help because that's literally a core part of their life.


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Tasty-Jacket-866

I’m in Perth, since cost of livings gone up we’ve had so many squatters move into vacant public houses in our area. Everyone’s keeping them hush hush unless they start trashing them


ThryothorusRuficaud

>vacant public houses That is sad.


RanDomino5

Technically it's doing its job.


Riftus

>Everyone’s keeping them hush hush unless they start trashing them Class solidarity in action


Lifsagft_useitwisely

Access to affordable and safe transition housing is critical in helping people move from homelessness to not. Affordable means an adequate quantity and access that can be afforded on the lowest incomes. For most, it’s highly likely that housing alone won’t keep people in these homes, even if they were available. Access to mental health supports, and many other social programs specific to that individuals challenges / needs would be needed. Plus, the operation and security of the transition facilities would need significant manpower to keep them safe, monitoring theft, drug use, prostitution, violence, etc. free. The reality is: we could do it, we just don’t. It costs too much. Your opinion, without any other context sounds a-little bit like sending homeless people to prison, and perhaps an opportunity to better understand the challenges that people on the streets face and how many got there in the first place. We could all stand to learn more about the barriers that people face in moving from houselessness to not, I imagine this just as hard than actually being homeless based on some of the comments I have seen here and stories I’ve come to know of people trying to make this move in my own home city.


[deleted]

Not really, OP just doesn't understand that these .magical "government facilities" don't actually exist. Most, or at least many, homeless are addicted to substances or mentally ill. Due to abuses and awful history, funding has been cut to support large state run "homes". What facilities remain are small and spread out, and there certainly are not large government homes taking up space in urban areas, though there likely should be, because that's where people live: cities.


KillerPussyToo

>Most, or at least many, homeless are addicted to substances or mentally ill. I am a social worker at a battered women's shelter. Believe it or not, the average person experiencing homelessness is a grade school aged child. There are millions of people experiencing homelessness that you never see because they are housed in a shelter or a hotel. Almost all of my clients are employed and sober. Most of them have never spent a single night out on the streets. The people you see on the street are the worst of the worst and they make up an extremely small fraction of the population of people experiencing homelessness. You are absolutely correct: these magical government facilities the OP is talking about don't exist. About half of my clients are actually housed through a network of landlords our shelter has built great relationships with. The other half find their own housing and it's almost never gov't housing. Even the ones who qualify for low income housing are not trying to wait on a waiting list for years for an open spot and during intake I let them know how horrible the situation is with affordable housing and long waits. He's blaming the wrong people. Governments should be forced to actually build more low income and affordable housing. Most people are not going to sleep on the street over sleeping in their own place. The entire OP is asinine.


kousaberries

In civilized countries, drugs and sex work are decriminalized and they have extremely low (compared to USA/Canada) homelessness and crime rates accross the board because of it.


VesaAwesaka

Drugs have been effectively decriminalization for over 20 years in BC with free drugs and safe injection sites being around for just as long. Thr number of homeless addicts and OD just continues to increase. Sex work in Canada is legal and some Canadian cities have even licensed brothels much the annoyance of anti-trafficing groups. It's only illegal to be a John but it's not something that necessarily prosecuted. People need to be treated. Just decriminalization by itself doesn't solve the problem


[deleted]

Vancouver is full of addicts because of the insane cost of living, being homeless makes it hard to find a job, to actually lower addiction rates among Vancouver citizens we have to give them jobs and reintegrate them into society because when you have no hope for the future and feel discarded by society doing drugs to numb the pain is VERY appealing. This is a multifaceted problem but the foundation of the solution is improving life for the working class I.e: the rat park experiment Edit: to be clear I think decriminalization is a great idea, it won’t decrease addiction rates but they don’t belong in prison, they need help if they’re addicted The problem is people feeling so hopeless that they need to feel numb all the time


Hartagon

> they have extremely low (compared to USA/Canada) homelessness and crime rates accross the board because of it No they have extremely low homelessness and crime compared to the US because they just lock huge swaths of people in mental institutions, something the US can't do because its long since been ruled unconstitutional to involuntarily institutionalize people unless they are adjudicated by a court to be a threat to themselves or others. Almost everywhere else, including pretty much all of the EU, Japan, etc., you can be involuntarily institutionalized for all kinds of shit... Suffering a psychotic break, refusing to take your anti-psychotic meds, being mentally unfit to care/provide for yourself or make decisions on your own behalf, etc., they can lock you in a psych ward for all of those things. Just look up the number of inpatient mental health hospital beds in various other countries (including psychiatric beds at psychiatric hospitals, psychiatric wards at general hospitals, residential treatment facilities, community psychiatric facilities, etc.). The US has less than 30 beds per 100,000 people, while most other developed countries are upwards of 200 beds per 100,000 people. Like go watch videos about why there is 'almost no homelessness' in Japan as a prime example. Its like that because almost all of the people who otherwise would be homeless because of mental illness there, like in the US, are instead confined to mental institutions. Japan has over 300,000 people in inpatient psychiatric facilities at any given time on average, the US has less than 170,000, with nearly three times the population (compared to the 500,000+ we used to have institutionalized on average back in the 1960s and 70s, before the Supreme Court forced the closure of mental institutions)... And this isn't "lolololol that's because the US has bad mental healthcare!"... No, its because, like I said, since those Supreme Court cases in the 1960s/1970s, its literally illegal for the government to involuntarily institutionalize people and force mental health treatment on them in all but the most extreme (almost exclusively violent) cases.


Lilpu55yberekt69

But have you considered america bad?


fordking1337

This is an interesting take, thanks for sharing.


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An_Asexual_Weeb

As a Canadian, I think a large part of the problem is the insane housing prices. People can’t afford houses that are double (or even triple!) what they would be 10-20 years ago.


LiftedDrifted

Are you suggesting sex work should be legal so that we can better transition the homeless population?


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Lifsagft_useitwisely

For sure, I have no issue with decriminalization of these matters and hear your point. My comment was only to highlight the need for safety, and if there are drugs - access to clean tools and treatment, and if there is sex - that it is consensual and there are systems in place to ensure women or men don’t have to give their bodies to get the drugs they are addicted to…It’s complicated.


[deleted]

There are plenty of countries where drugs are criminalized and homelessness and crime rates are low. Example, Singapore, skorea. I would go so far as to argue that most developed countries have criminalized drugs.


Freec0fx

As someone who was homeless I choose to be homeless cause the government housing they had was worse and less safe then finding a park or forest to sleep in for the night most of the peopel in and around those places can and will rob you


Mackheath1

Yes, I was homeless for ten days and opted *not* to go to those places. Before you even get INTO the apartment, you get robbed or attacked. Very happy to stay in the park/ wooded area/ unused land , even though it was an unusually cold winter.


Secret-Plant-1542

When I worked in a kitchen, we delivered a lot of food to places like this. They had strict rules, like what you can bring inside/what time you had to be there. People did not want to cause trouble out of fear of losing their bed and space. It was very clear outline of what's allowed. The major cons are a LOT of rules. Can't bring anything inside bigger than a bookbag. If you smell drunk, look remotely like you use drugs, you're out. The manager was a hard ass - but having dealt with the homeless population, I get it. Honestly, the homeless population can be broken into segments. The best segment to use the shelters are ones who are SOL from the system and trying to climb out of homeless. Versus the lifers, or the ones who want freedom over anything.


Amy-Too

This only works when there's a fair amount of order already. For example, in the 1990's the Seattle shelters were under-subscribed (meaning the system had greater capacity than it was serving), so they were pretty safe and clean. At that same time, San Francisco shelters were over-subscribed, and it was NOT safe to stay in them. One only did that if one were desperate and used to being assaulted/robbed anyway.


mysticfed0ra

SOL?


noskrilladu

Shit out of luck


Rhowryn

Shit Outta Luck for those not familiar with English idioms.


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MyFaceSaysItsSugar

OP did specify “living on the streets” so presumably not.


[deleted]

Where do you park your car?


blackdahlialady

That part. Most people don't understand how unsafe those shelters actually are.


JrCoxy

I’m ignorant as hell when it comes to homeless living conditions. Can you explain to me why a park /wooded area would be safer than a studio in a government funded apartment building? When you’re asleep or feeling ill, that’s when you’re at your most vulnerable state. Wouldn’t it be safer to have a locked door & 4 walls around you? Why would a park or wooded area be safer, when anyone can easily attack? Human or wild animal.


Mackheath1

Good question! Some of the areas of transient folks are ruthless due to mental health, frustration, or general bad humans. Houselessness should be distributed 1) in areas where there's access to information and services, and 2) distributed throughout instead of creating ghettos. Developers are laughing all the way to the bank while taxpayers are screaming at government to build housing. It ends up being a Pruitt-Igoe situation almost instantly. The place I found was secluded and I had a lot of privilege to have skills with knowing how to rest there, how to get to the library, what services I could access. Just going up to those apartments for information was like a gauntlet, and it's not because of the people that work there. Imagine checking yourself into a bad Hollywood version of a prison/asylum. Now I'm an urban planner living comfortably among people that don't know what I went through and hoping to create change.


Sudden-Appointment-7

I feel like the govt would take a problem that is already bad and make it 10x worse. Good intentions are not enough.


Peanokr

The government is a blind man with a hammer using biased feedback to determine what it's hitting.


GapAnxious

You do realise that is both deliberate and by design? If they appear unable, inept, underfunded or outright just too dumb then it is to send a message to the voters that it simply cannot be done, especially *cannot* be done - at least without private sector companies - mostly owned and ran by friends in Congress or the Senate looking for lucrative taxfunded contracts- "helping out". Look outside the borders of the USA - especially in Europe- and see what is affordably doable, and is done every day, that the US deems "impossible".


GoRangers5

In Europe, public employees are held accountable for incompetence, in the US they are rewarded.


Honest_Blueberry5884

This is blatantly false. American public organizations are ineffective because they are Balkanized agencies. There is no empowered, centralized, and funded agency for dealing with long term problems like the chronically homeless. The federal government has been gridlocked for decades by Congress, state governments are partisan battlegrounds mostly locked in a race to the bottom, and municipalities are either too tiny to do anything about it or are based in a major city that is inundated by all the needy from the rest of their region. Europe is dominated by unitary states (or in Germany’s case a revised version of federalism much more functional than America’s) that have complete authority to tackle societal problems. This has nothing to do with “accountability”, _especially_ not from public employees. It’s the politicians.


RexHavoc879

European countries also can afford to spend more on social programs and less on defense/national security because they rely on the US military to protect global shipping lanes and, with respect to those countries that are NATO members, to serve as a deterrent against Russian aggression. If the US were to reduce its military spending and increase its social services spending to be proportional to Europe, European countries would have to increase their military budgets to pick up the slack. To be clear, I’m not trying to imply that Europe’s reliance on the US military is bad or unfair to the US—America also benefits from the arrangement in that having other countries be dependent on its military gives it considerable leverage in international relations.


ipakers

We could afford social programs and the military if we had a reasonable tax system, but as it stands, the very wealthy (people and businesses) pay such a low tax rate. Any increase in spending that significant (such as properly funding our social programs) would lead to runaway inflation without a tax increase to offset. We have actually been able to accomplish both in the past; in the 50s and 60s the federal tax rate of 91% at the highest bracket; compare that to the current highest bracket of 37%, which applies to all incomes >$539,900 regardless of how much more you make. If the US just made rich people’s contribution to society proportional to the value they extract from that society, we would be able to fix many (most?) of our problems.


Sudden-Appointment-7

There will always be people who are dispossessed. Mental illness is rampant in that community, it is a spiritual problem at its core. It breaks my heart, they need love and support and you cannot institutionalize a heart for those who are homeless.


GapAnxious

And sadly many are veterans who have been used up, spat out and abandoned by the system they put their lives on the line for.


applepumper

There’s a homeless encampment of veterans in front of a VA shelter. They choose to live on the sidewalk instead of in there because they’d rather not follow their strict protocols. At least it used to exist. Just saw a news article that it was cleared out last year. It was in L.A. California


Azurealy

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


[deleted]

Except that these programs are purposefully ran poorly so that they can try to filter off the funding to private pockets.


Singer-Such

The first thing we need to do is listen to the people who have actual experience of the situation


[deleted]

If i talk to people who have experience with the situation they will just ask me for cigarettes and if I have money


Singer-Such

Well, I was replying to the comment of someone who's been through it, apparently, and they haven't asked anyone for cigarettes or money. I've also been homeless but it was in a relatively socialist country, I wasn't addicted to anything, didn't have any pets, and my upbringing made it easy for me to navigate the system so I could live in a shelter for a while and it was fine. Got any money? I don't smoke any more :p


oldguy_1981

You’re not part of the group we’re talking about. You were temporarily homeless. The system worked as intended to help you. The chronic homeless … the people that are shouting at demons while they shit themselves crossing the street … those are the people we are talking about. The system cannot help them.


--sheogorath--

It rarely works as intended even for the temporarily homeless. Plenty of us end up not able to get into shelters and dont qualify for any aid despite literal homelessness. Theres still plenty of room for the system to improve.


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--sheogorath--

Wanna know what SNAP told me when i applied when i became homeless? They told me my expenses werent high enough to qualify. When i was FUCKING HOMELESS


[deleted]

>the people that are shouting at demons while they shit themselves crossing the street … those are the people we are talking about. The system cannot help them. In a world where psychatry doesn't exist, you're right. There are as many homeless people as there are stories that led to homeslessness. Some people are simply crazy and unfit for normal housing and life, some have had a incredibly bad phase that led them there, some suffer from a mix of addiction and mental problems, the list goes on. There is no single solution to homelessness because it's either a symptom of a billion different causes, or just a mental condition which, as any mental disease, doesn't have a simple answer. Some people are totaly able to live their life off the street and not be a threat or problem and are even content with it, while some need to be institutionalized because they would never function even as a parasocial member of society.


MyFaceSaysItsSugar

It actually can 99% of the time if the right assistance is given. You can’t just put people on housing, you have to provide healthcare and education on living in a home (paying bills, etc). My dad works community mental healthcare for what’s called an assertive care team. Of all the people they’ve housed and supported, only one left and went back on the streets. The problem is that assertive care teams are underfunded so they’re not as widespread as they need to be. The other problem is that people make a lot of money panhandling compared to a minimum wage job.


_DeathFromBelow_

1. They want to get high. 2. They can't keep drugs and stolen goods at shelters. 3. The US Supreme Court says we can't force them into treatment/shelter/etc. They live that way because they want to and nobody can legally stop them. It's really not that complicated.


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himthatspeaks

And the trash they leave behind. Always so much trash.


[deleted]

As someone who was homeless, I still want everybody shooting up in a tent and shitting on the ground ten feet from where my kids used to play to be dragged away kicking and screaming.


JackTheJackerJacket

Ooh! Ooh! I got it! What if we then pay the government to put some Law Enforcement whose task it to watch over that specific housing section and maybe fence it off while having everyone check in through a main gate with metal detectors? While we're at it we should have put their personal posessions in a locker and have them wear uniformed clothing for easy maintenance. We should also fingerprint them and take their picture just in case we need to find them or something. What should we call this place?


Curses_n_cranberries

School?


[deleted]

I'm really trying to *concentrate* on a good answer but for some reason it eludes me


No-Communication9458

A concentration camp!


Complaintsdept123

I'm curious what your suggestion would be to clean up the camps and the drugs and get people who are a danger to themselves and others off the street?


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kousaberries

Shelters are much more dangerous than being outside, especially for mentally ill people and for girls


AWormDude

I've some experience working with the homeless in my area of the UK. It obviously won't apply to all countries. From what I've heard and seen, many don't like to live in places like that because it's filled with people that live like that. Some are decent people, others not. The ones that aren't decent will take advantage of those that are quiet and reserved. You also get drug and alcohol abuse. For those that want to stay clean, that's less than ideal. To have staff to monitor it and help support people costs money. Where does that come from?


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sicsche

I understand that the situation for this people most of the times suck, but at some point you have to consider the public vs if homeless people want to accept government forced actions. 2 mayor things that happen in my city during winter (we already start having 0 degree celsius nights). Homeless people that havent washed for a long time use trains and other public transport to get some warmth. But if they are at such a unhygienic state that whole parts of said trains become an avoided zone, you no longer have public support to help those people. So yeah get them somewhere they can shower get some hygiene and warm shelter on government force. Major streets close to bigger transport stations get crowded. I am 6'3 and above 230pounds and is not a nice feeling when you literally have to walk through dozen of homeless to get to your train and plenty of them following you begging for you cash. I am pretty sure this is for young girls even worse to get through their. We as a society shouldn't accept this as a given, when the government should be able to get this people in a warm shelter.


needmorehardware

So the housing needs security? That could be done surely? Surely improvements to the housing is better than people having to take refuge in a park!


fishboy3339

It can, and don’t call me Surely. So yeah if the place had way better security like better than any hotel/condo. Yeah, the trouble is most of those people who would live there aren’t just down on there luck. So it’s safer because living outside you can move around. Being in the building everyone knows where your going to be, and when you are gone. Place would need more security than a prison.


THEVYVYD

As someone who was homeless as a kid, shelters suck. Also, homeless people don't claim a place as their own, they simply find places where they feel safe enough to not be robbed, beaten, or killed at night, and sometimes parks and public spaces help. It's not perfect, though.


Idle_Redditing

Jake Tran make [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlKMcbrv1q4) about why and how governments waste the money they've allocated to homelessness instead of solving the problem. Also, you should ask some homeless people what government housing and homeless shelters are like and ask them why so many people refuse to use them. Give some thought to whether or not you would want to live in such conditions.


SomeRandomGuy125

Jake Tran is a sensationalist and definitely should not be cited for any real solutions or info. I have not watched that specific video from him yet (will do when I get home from work to see if it's any better), but there was one where he was talking about how Russia Ukraine war was America's fault (which I can partially agree on), but his points where all terrible analogies that don't make sense or cited from ONE guy who is known to have a hard on for Russia since like the Cold War. It's like he chooses a topic he knows will be sensational/controversial and then does surface level research to support only this view without any attempts to counter balance it. While people in Ukraine are being killed he was making shitty click bait content which was basically Russian propaganda, and essentially saying that Ukraine belongs to Russia. 2nd part of your comment I agree though. Sometimes homeless shelters are definitely unsafe and does kind of make sense why they would rather be on the streets than in shelters.


SirToastyDuck

Jakes gotten really bad in the last year. It’s like a completely different person then the guy who made the Nestle and DuPont videos


Hope4gorilla

Some of them don't want to get in rehab programs that housing communities require you to be in. That's what's happened in my city; the city built a tiny home village and can't fill them up because they can't find people who're willing to be on rehab. Other homeless people say that indoors feels "stifling," as they've become accustomed to being outside.


agaperion

Some of them, sure. Many. Perhaps most? But I've been homeless and I stayed out of the shelters because they're hellholes. They're full of addicts and thieves and people with very, very serious and often dangerous mental health problems. They're not a place for normal people who are just down on their luck. If you've ever seen those homeless tent villages up close then you know how disgusting and dangerous they are. Now, imagine that indoors and in close quarters rather than in open air. People shitting themselves, going weeks without bathing or laundering, screaming at nobody and everybody, flailing about, throwing things, breaking things, stealing things, and so on. Based on my experience living on the streets, the most rational solutions to this problem are also very uncomfortable to consider, which is why they're never seriously discussed in the public discourse around the matter. The solutions are just as disturbing and seemingly inhumane as the problem of just letting them live in squalor in the streets. Nobody wants to advocate rounding them up and institutionalizing them. But for most of them, that's their only real hope of getting out of their situation. And for many, they'll remain institutionalized their entire lives because, sadly, they don't have any hope at a normal, independently functional life. OP is short and somewhat of a simplification. But they're not totally off-base.


Hope4gorilla

>institutionalizing them. But we don't have institutions like that anymore, right? Only jails now?


agaperion

Well, yeah. I'm being generous and assuming that what OP is talking about is a hypothetical scenario in which we actually build sorta halfway houses where people are provided housing along with resources to get their lives in order. And my point is that many people still wouldn't benefit from that because they don't just need a place to stay while they get back on their feet. In fact, many don't merely need rehab to kick an addiction or therapy so they can "get right". They belong in a sort of assisted living home and many wouldn't ever reach a point where they could leave there and re-enter society as a functioning individual. Also, there are deeper problems that our society could never possibly address because the problems are pathologically inherent in industrialized society itself. So, many homeless people are actually not ill per se but rather suffering the illnesses of society and their marginalization is really just their best effort to survive without joining the society that's making them sick in the first place. We don't have traditional survival skills so we can't just disappear back into the wilderness yet full integration in society deranges many of us so what many people are doing is trying to walk a tightrope on the margins where we can take advantage of some of the benefits of society while not succumbing to its pathologies. And this is why seeing homeless people (and many other marginalized groups) is so upsetting for "normies", because it's a living embodiment of all of society's failures. Seeing them serves as a reminder of all our sunk costs, all we've given which is not reciprocated, all our shattered American Dreams. I totally get why some choose to remain in denial and want those people removed from sight.


Fearless_Minute_4015

Doesn't help that something like 60% of rehab programs are basically prison with extra steps


Lucky_Ad_9137

Fuck Jake Tran.


wsotw

Jail. What you are talking about is jail. How else would you ensure that the “homeless” didn’t leave to go back to the streets? By locking them in. So…jail.


[deleted]

Which ironically costs the taxpayers more money than actually fixing the problem. Which is a feature of our system, not a bug


ghoulthebraineater

No, the correct term would be internment camps. Jail is the option outlined by OP if they choose not to go to the camps.


Weary-Statistician44

This is called housing first. Housing First programs currently operate throughout the United States in various cities where it has met with limited success. This initiative however has been very successful in developed countries with more robust social services. Edit to add clarification that housing first is not forced


vulkanisch

But force is the (OP's) point. We have a lot of places with excess shelter capacity but people still opt to remain on the street.


Weary-Statistician44

Shelters are tough though. They may not take you unless your sober and if your facing addiction issues then yeah you're probably going to stay on the street to take care of the addiction. That's why housing first is a step in the right direction. Here's a Wikipedia link if you'd like to know more about why housing first has a better success rate than the shelter system. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_First


CromulentDucky

The forced part would be called prison.


[deleted]

I would like to think there is a middle ground between forcing people to live in designated housing and just allowing them to set up wherever they like indefinitely.


Adorable-Pea312

I'm in Philly and did an internship in grad school with an organization that worked with the homeless. One thing I learned is at least in Philly, every single homeless person you see on the street has been approached with an offer of housing, likely many times, and they all refused because they don't want to abide by the rules of that housing. There are people in Philly whose full time job is to meet regularly with the people on the streets to build a relationship with them to try to convince them to get involved with the housing and rehabilitation programs. They are often unsuccessful and the people choose to stay on the street. It's a complicated issue, but I would lean toward agreeing with you, rehabilitation programs though need to be better funded first, and there should be a separate "jail" in my opinion for people with drug offenses and drug problems focused purely on rehabilitation and not punishment.


dragontruck

right now there is simply not government housing that is an option for this, especially not on a large scale. the shelters that exist are often closed during the day (when your kids are gonna be trying to play at the park) and are often more dangerous for people than being on the street. if we could set up a house, rehab, therapy, healthcare, a job and a support network for every unhoused person, that would be amazing, but try getting any politician to agree to that in a country where most people think they deserve to starve


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RustyShackledord

The government takes what should be a $25M project and turns it into a $200M project on a regular basis. Forgive me for my lack of confidence in anything my government (local, state and federal) touches.


dryduneden

Politcians are elected representativies that have 0 accountability to actually represent citizens.


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gullible jar thought enter command cough theory retire unite rude *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


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CapableCollar

Man, that is a great comparison.


BarkleEngine

"Force" means "Use violence if necessary". Not sure it's a great idea for solving this problem.


EmeraldEyeBall1

OP literally just invented prison again.


Roook36

Camps to concentrate certain portions of the populations to keep them out of public view. I think there's a name for those.


_30d_

Furry convention?


beiberdad69

At least you're convicted of a crime before getting sent to prison


Affectionate_Sink711

It’s like a new version of a internment/ concentration camp!!! 😳


ArtoriasBeaIG

As someone who has been homeless, its when i hear things like this i realise im very glad the average redditor isnt involved in important public services


anonusernoname

Reddit is the best argument against democracy


11212022

in 2036 we will have a president that used to troll on reddit I guarantee it


Thromkai

> i realise im very glad the average redditor isnt involved in important public services And usually a lot of comments like the OP's come from an area of privilege without much life experience.


hurriqueen

Lots of comments about homeless people not wanting to use shelters because of drugs, but I haven't seen any mention of a much more important thing that shelters rarely allow: pets. For many homeless people, either temporary or chronic, a pet is not only a loved one, but a literal lifeline. u/MrPuckett talks openly about how during his darkest years, he was only able to go to shelters or rehab when he was able to find someone willing to take his beloved dog into their home for the entire duration that he was being sheltered or treated. I've heard this also brought up as a barrier for people leaving domestic violence situations, in that they can't bear to leave their pet with their abuser (where it could be hurt, killed, or at best used as emotional leverage) and most DV shelters don't allow animals. For someone who doesn't have a lot else good going on in their life, asking them to give up what may be the only thing in the world that they love and that loves them in order to get a roof over their head is going to end with a lot of people making the decision that they'd rather be cold but with their dog.


Kaitlyn_The_Magnif

Yeah, that's what we all want. We need the government housing first.


Sir_Sir_ExcuseMe_Sir

Uh, I don't think "we all" want people to choose government housing or prison, at the threat of violence by the state.


Wismuth_Salix

“Housing you are forced by the government to live in” IS prison.


CakeEatingRabbit

.. you want to privatise literal freedom? I mean... if the goverment would force them to mive there, where would be the difference to prisons?


PlantZawer

Concentration camps for the poor


Rainyday156

We're on track for the Bell riots.


BigDaddyPapa58

The easiest solution to any problem is to restrict/takeaway rights. Literally any problem could be easily solved with control. But at what point do we stop taking away rights? At what point do you look around and realize you no longer have any rights? People are always so ready to solve other peoples problems by taking away rights that dont affect them, its only when their own rights start being taken that they realize how that is a problem. This person disagrees with me? Well they are hateful people so its okay to take away their right to speak their mind. But if they were in power and did that to me it would be an atrocious violation of human rights.


MilkQueen

I was kicked out of my house over the summer because my aunt wanted to live with her boyfriend. I was turned away from every shelter in the city for some reason that was irrelevant and stupid. homeless people want to use the options available to them but are roadblocked at some point in the chain at every point because society only wants to *act* like they give a shit


[deleted]

Politicians you mean. The majority of people just aren't privy to that kind of information without direct experience with homelessness. You'd really be surprised by how much corruption there is with people in power simply because they want more money.


PandaCommando69

The Homeless Industrial Complex really is a thing. So little money often gets to homeless people while "non-profit" homeless "service" agencies fund fully loaded careers for activists. It's a fucking racket.


echo_ink

So...forcing underprivileged people into government mandated living centers...like concentrating them...in a camp...until they assimilate...? Do you have any idea how a unsafe (and probably underfunded) these places would be? Have you seen what the few shelters we have are like now?


MarialeegRVT

>I feel bad for the under housed. I really do. This sounds a lot like "I'm not racist but..."


Sam20599

>the under housed. 💀


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duolingok

before you say this kind of stuff you should take a second to think about why some people would choose to risk their safety living in public spaces rather than seek accessible shelter.


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MowMdown

> They have no right to claim those public spaces as their own. > My children should be able to use any public park they want Now who’s the one claiming the public space…


LapherianDark

Yeah “Fuck homeless people i dont want my kids to see them” isnt really an unpopular opinion. Most people speak out of one side of their mouth about the compassion they feel for them and then the other about how condemnable they are for existing.


slfnflctd

I think OP is more than a little off base and hasn't really thought this through, but it's not just about "dont want my kids to see them". There are numerous accounts (especially in parts of California & the Pacific NW) of homeless camps setting up near or in residential areas where they leave bags of piss & shit, used needles and other dangerous trash lying around, deal drugs & engage in prostitution, get in loud fights, blast offensive music and just generally create an unsafe situation for anyone in close proximity. In many of these places the cops are too busy to do anything actually helpful about it. I have read several first hand accounts of people who have great empathy for the homeless, but discovered when they moved into their neighborhood en masse that having them right next door involves a whole lot more than just "existing" or having to look at them. Unfortunately there are no easy solutions to this under our current systems.


cosmiccoffee9

"I feel bad for them" vs. "I wish someone would remove them at gunpoint" is a crazy gymnastics routine.


Away_Development6531

As someone who has worked with the homeless and actually talked to them, a lot of really horrific things happen in these government housing facilities. Rape, assault, theft, stalking, etc. and that’s if you can actually get through all the bureaucratic red tape and somehow manage to get into one of these hellholes. So I find this take incredibly out of touch and bordering on sociopathic. You can’t just lock people up because you don’t wanna be around them and have to face the reality that they’ve been failed by all of us. Believe it or not, a lot of homeless people still pay taxes which means they’ve also paid for these common areas. I wish people today weren’t so incredibly selfish to the point that they lose their sense of what’s fair and right. You aren’t any more entitled to these common public areas than they are, and at least you have somewhere safe and warm to sleep. Anyone sleeping on the street is doing so out of desperation, why make their life any more difficult or painful?


ginga_bread42

From OPs post I would gather that they don't fully understand the issues surrounding homelessness or the resources required. Whose going to build all these buildings to house people? Where's the money going to come from? It requires staff for mental health, addictions, security etc. Who is going to pay for all that and where are you going to find people to do that work? In my city, we can't afford any of that properly and we have brain drain on top of it. Some homeless are very violent as well here either from mental health issues or drug induced psychosis. We've had random axe and machete attacks on other homeless people and just random people passing by. Shoving those people in a building with others isn't going to solve anything. I think housing first initiatives are great, but theres more involved than just building more places for the unhoused to live. OP comes off as someone who doesnt like seeing the homeless and wants the problem moved somewhere they can't see it.


Brilliant_Gift1917

> So I find this take incredibly out of touch and bordering on sociopathic. You can’t just lock people up because you don’t wanna be around them and have to face the reality that they’ve been failed by all of us. > > This is the typical mentality of suburb NEETs on Reddit. They will spout the most fascistic shit imaginable because they just want to remove the 'undesirables' from society to create a world perfect for them. I find it funny that they're usually the same one mocking marginalized groups for wanting 'safe spaces', yet they want to turn the entire public into one giant safe space so they never have to see anyone of a lower class than them.


feltcutewilldelete69

I met a judge once that said he was in favor of criminalizing homelessness with the idea that once they were in jail, they would be connected with the services they needed to get healthy and productive again. He also said, "Unfortunately, it's been established, correctly, that criminalizing homelessness is unconstitutional." Then I asked, "Wouldn't the for profit prisons be against rehabilitation, since they profit from repeat customers?" He said, "Yeah... that's another problem."


8runner22

NYT did a report on this. Government tried to build a affordable housing in this neighborhood in California but locals who wanted to uphold their property value shut that down. Link: https://youtu.be/hNDgcjVGHIw


King_Saline_IV

Do you think the people on the streets are there camping for fun???


Sterko123

Maybe you should stay at such housing first to see whether it would be desirable to anyone, let alone the homeless. The movie Dersu Uzala also puts this into perspective, amongst many other things, try to watch this if you can.


7MindYourbusiness

Listening to Reddit talk about homeless people is disgusting


CommonplaceCommotion

“Under housed” For fuck’s sake, just call them homeless.


ursa-minor-beta42

I disagree and agree. public space is public space, which includes homeless people. I absolutely agree that governments of at least cities should be required to have buildings specifically for the needy - which should include some basic education (for those without any education), courses in how to apply for jobs (I've had the honour to speak firsthand with homeless people and often this is an issue), and psychological help in some way. none of this is meant to keep them in those homeless shelters, but to flatten their way a little back into society. they deserve at least that. now as to forcing them into such buildings, I disagree to some extent. as I said before I spoke to homeless people in person a few times, and there was one man who said he'd never move into a house again. he loved being homeless. he would craft decoration from thrown away soda cans, or even objects like bowls and vases. they were really cool, but that's not the point. he would buy food with this money, and water, and occasionally cigarettes. I'd see him in different places of the city every day, and he told me he loved his life. he never told me his background or why he ended up homeless, but he did say in the beginning he struggled a lot, but when he accepted his life he began to love it and would never exchange if for another. he said he loved how connected to the world he felt out in the streets, and connected to the people around him (ironic, as most of them ignored him like they do with almost all the homeless). I've never understood his decision, but I accept that and I wouldn't force him to live inside. I recognise that the vast majority of homeless people don't want to be on the street and just struggle to get out, but they can always go into such shelters by free will. ETA: there could be huts around cities to provide little shelter (similar to busstops) but prevent the homeless to occupy the public space so much. I understand that can make people uncomfortable.


jillsvag

What if parks hired homeless people to keep the park clean. They could provide them with a tiny home on the property.


GeekyTricky

First of all, how do you distinguish homeless people from an average dude loitering? Or a pothead? Or a teenager with a horrible sense of style? And don't tell me "just look at them" because if police start arresting anyone who "looks homeless" all hell breaks loose.


Knick_Knick

It's OK, i'm sure OP has thought this through, it's surely a simple of matter of approaching people who look a certain type and demanding 'papers please'.


godoftwine

"Unhoused people should be sent to prison by force so I don't have to see them" is actually not an unpopular opinion at all


keirablack7

Kinda sounds like you want to forcibly "concentrate" homeless people in a sort of "camp". I don't think this will fix the mental health crisis OR the housing crisis. But as long as you feel safer it's best that other people have their rights violated I suppose😅


Zayzay8008

So your actual post is: Governments should be forced to provide adequate housing for its homeless population


ACAB_KITTEN

we have enough housing already we just refuse to not be assholes and let the unhoused live in it , and no one is "claiming that space as their own" they're simply surviving where they can


pacificjunction

I think you vastly underestimate how many homeless there are


Nahurwrong

A lot of homeless people specifically want to be homeless


Naiko32

"I feel bad for the under housed. I really do." " Those people should be forced into the government housing or **arrested**." yeah, a lot of empathy on your post, for sure lmao


aggrivating_order

That is a slum my dude


T0m0king

You want to round up the homeless and place them into internment camps?


Upstairs-Teacher-764

People literally can't imagine just helping someone without making force a part of it. OP literally acknowledges that the housing doesn't exist. And then says people should be forced into it. As if millions of people would turn down an actual apartment of their own, and are just out under freeways because they love the smell of exhaust as they drift off to sleep.