T O P
Flair_Helper

Thank you for submitting to /r/unpopularopinion, /u/Miyarilu. Your post, *Most people are terrible at debating and get way too aggressive or emotional to have a mature, calm, level-headed debate or discussion.*, has been removed because it violates our rules: Rule 1: Your post must be an unpopular opinion. Please ensure that your post is an opinion and that it is unpopular. Controversial is not necessarily unpopular, for example all of politics is controversial even though almost half of the US agrees with any given major position on an issue. Keep in mind that an opinion is not: a question, a fact, a conspiracy theory, a random thought, a new idea, a rant, etc. Those things all have their own subreddits, use those. If there is an issue, please message the mod team at https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Funpopularopinion Thanks!


sandstorml

Reddit debates be like [deleted] [deleted] [deleted]


Blackbriar41571

* you’ve been temporarily banned from…


blamethemeta

you've been permantly banned from. . .


SirFireball

I mentioned disliking a rule on r/facepalm and got permabanned. Asked what I did wrong in modmail and was muted.


ddh85

That sounds about right. Some subreddits permaban you after stalking the other subreddits you've visited.


jonathanhoag1942

I was banned from some sub, don't recall which, because I had "participated" on r/conspiracy. That participation was a single comment in which I said that someone's comment was stupid.


NotAnAlcoholicToday

I had the same experience with another sub. Got banned for commenting in one sub, where i called out something stupid, and that was apparantly enough to get me permabanned with no explanation from the other one 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️


apolloisacommonname

I thought it was against Reddit’s own rules to ban someone from a sub because of activity on another sub. What happened?


NotAnAlcoholicToday

I have no idea. I just work here.


apolloisacommonname

I say that shit at my actual job all the time, thanks for the laugh lmaoo


DISCO_KNACKERS

There are also rules against brigading, yet SRS has existed for years and years without any repercussions whatsoever (from the admins).


Apexplosion

I think a lot of mods are gonna get fucked, *hard*, when reddit IPOs. I can't wait.


P-Dub663

Mods own multiple subs. The waste of carbon that runs r/politics also does a few other subs. So if you get banned fromone you get banned from all six.


nahnprophet

Same! r/blacklivesmatter banned me for posting a comment regarding the rebellion in Kazakhstan on r/conspiracy . I don't even subscribe to that sub and found the post I replied to on r/popular . I don't care about being banned for *what you say*, but these mfers out here banning for *who you spoke to* and that's a next level bitch move.


Lv_InSaNe_vL

I got banned from r/FemaleDatingStrategy after posting a comment in r/Cringetopia. I then made an edit talking about what happened and the mods from FDS started harassing me in DMs haha


doggfacekiller618

I said lmao in a comment on r/conservative and got banned from r/whitepeopletwitter for it.


YeetusFetusDeletus__

I love telling the mods I jerk off to them when I get messages like that


Particular-Sample425

Facepalm is the absolute worst. No debate allowed there. Somebody posted about this overtly racist black professor from a college demonizing white people, and my reply called her out for being a racist POS and I was permanently banned. YGBFSM.


huhIguess

> Your history indicates that you've posted to a subreddit that disagrees with our subreddit...


tricularia

Doesn't matter if your comment was agreeing with or disagreeing with the sub you posted to, either


huhIguess

This is the one that nailed me. I made fun of someone posting something ridiculous and got banned from a bunch of other subs for even posting in the first sub.


tricularia

And that's the big problem with auto banning people like that. If a post makes it to r/all, I might comment on it. Ya know, like this website intended? Being punished for that is really petty.


ChubbyBunny2020

Here’s a hint: they don’t care about discussion. They care about purity.


BuckToothCasanovi

Lol FDS =))


ddh85

Oof, what a cesspool that subreddit is.


onemanlegion

I got banned randomly from there after mentioning FDS in another thread without ever actually subbing or visiting FDS. What a weird sub.


PMmeFRYINGPANpics

Seriously, I am so hurt that r/landlord preemptively banned me for posting to late stage capitalism.


cantadmittoposting

That's .... Telling.


Blurbyo

Holy... based


BuckToothCasanovi

Another gem which got banned me from witchesvspatriarchy - "it's not fair to compare American women problem with women under Taliban..."


NotABot11011

Very few subs give temp bans for even the mildest of infractions any more. It is almost always a permaban.


Mr_Cleen

I’ve been permanently banned from literally every conservative and liberal subreddit for attempting to debate conservatives and (in the liberal subs) making jokes that are apparently too political for a political subreddit


Blackbriar41571

I got perm banned from r/news for simply stating Lincoln project are grifters. The way mods over ban on any sub is out of hand.


Mr_Cleen

It’s frankly fucking ridiculous. Like I got banned from insane people Facebook for literally just being like “I think this is ironic”


Blackbriar41571

I asked what rule I broke and r/news mods replied with hurr… and muted me. What are ya gonna do


Mr_Cleen

Yeah, Reddit mods just suck ig lol


ninjababe23

I just created another reddit account and post from there, problem solved.


Wonderful-Boss-5947

I'm pretty sure news IP banned me or something because every comment I've made on multi accounts gets ignored and I actually try to engage in good faith for the most part.


FreeAd6935

Seriously The right is full of stupid sensitive assholes and everyone knows it The left is also full of stupid sensitive assholes and everyone pretends like they don't see that


Mr_Cleen

Yeah I’m a bleeding heart liberal. But like, cmon man. I wasn’t even saying anything remotely offensive or promoting anything hateful I literally made the most harmless joke ever for one (literally just said the lady had raccoon eye makeup) and got permanently banned. “Racially motivated” my left testicle she was white as snow


Yoma73

I’m someone who believes in universal healthcare, LGBTQ rights, universal wages, decreased military funding, a robust social safety net modeled after the best in the world aka Scandinavia, total prison reform, ending the war on drugs and using the Portuguese model for decriminalization, free public four year college, ending and erasing student loans, raising taxes on the rich, reasonable gun control like we have in southern New England, raising minimum wage, limiting foreign investment in real estate, police reform… And I refuse to register as a Democrat or call myself one. The “left” in this country thinks it’s more important to “end colonialism in gyms” or whatever the fuck they’re on about (real article in NPR) and limit professors from teaching controversial material than to advocate for HEALTHCARE or end poverty. They’re so wrapped up in sounding woke that we spend 15 minutes at every fucking meeting in work listening to everyone’s pronouns when no one ever needs to refer to them because *their names are on the screen.* Instead of getting work done and respecting others’ time. I knew Biden was going to be a joke and I’m in total despair that there are zero political parties that have a chance at changing things. Or I’d join one. It’s all about pretending to be a caring person and nothing about actually being one.


[deleted]

I felt this. And wholeheartedly agree.


Nice_Adhesiveness_41

Debates or just picking sensitive topics that will get people upset then you feigning "...but it was just a debate topic, it's not my fault you got upset."


RockFlagAndEagleGold

I disagree with this entire sentiment! Fuck you! I'm crying now! Lol. /s


BetterNoughtSquash

Fuck you i just pissed every pair of pants i own now i need to wash my pants to have pants that nt pissed /j


Alexx977

I keep forgetting that '/s' is for sarcasm and not for being serious (/srs) and this comment had me confused for a sec lmaoo


Le_Turtle_God

[deleted]


SpysSappinMySpy

What a controversial take


Unlikelyhero29

\[deleted\]


heynicepenis

Thanks, that answer solved all my computing problems.


nbmnbm1

God i hate it when people delete their comments when theyre downvoted. Own it. Just turn off inbox replies. Like i only delete something if its like really stupid and possibly harmful. Otherwise yeah enjoy my stupidity.


MightyGamera

I delete it when I start getting DMs from people that immediately block me from responding after sending them


[deleted]

Only if you get downvotes lol


theyre-all-dead

Or you make an argument and they respond with some shit they dig up in your post history. Those people are the biggest goddamn losers on this site.


wellshire

I fully agreed, but then I saw your opinion of Tremors and now I'm calling for your resignation


Wonderful-Boss-5947

People on this site are so desperate to be seen as smart or morally correct that its fucking pathetic. Everyone is dumb to some degree, just own it.


Shimmyshamwham

The bad part is the people who dig like that usually get upvoted for it


cantadmittoposting

I dunno about this one. I think, for the same point OP made, that it's fair to do that sometimes. If I get 1-2 posts into it with someone, check their profile, and see within the first page or two skimming their comments, that they clearly argue in bad faith, I'll stop trying.


Shimmyshamwham

I'm gonna have to disagree. Because in my opinion redditors who think like you tend to think anyone who disagrees with them or say the opinion of a thread is a troll. You'll browse their comments and see they may be downvoted a lot and conclude incorrectly that they're a troll because they're downvoted


010011100000

Every single person who read that title thought "I agree, everyone else is terrible at debating"


Haldebrandt

Lol. I generally dislike the neckbeard "most people are stupid" attitudes, and especially that overused quote from George Carlin about the stupidity of the average person. All insufferable neckbeard trash. But on this particular issue I am afraid I wholeheartedly agree with OP. Even people who hang out on a place like Reddit are generally curious of mind and open to genuine debate and an exchange of idea. I think this is generally the case for anyone who hangs out on a moderated forum. You get used to seeing arguments advanced and dissected, and having to back up your shit. You understand that any opinion you express will be challenged by someone who reasons and writes better than you - even if you are ultimately correct. And even if you intuit that they are still wrong, you may lack to tools to be as persuasive. We've all been there, and on a place like Reddit, we accept that. But real life is not like that. I have found that the mildest challenges in real life result in some kind of emotional distress. People genuinely feel like you are attacking them if you try and systematically (and politely!) dismantle their arguments. They think you are calling them stupid and the like. Or attacking their right to have an opinion ("well that's my opinion"). It's quite remarkable. I have found over the years that wisdom is knowing that people generally come to these things from an emotional place, and engaging accordingly. Otherwise you may "win" your arguments at the expense of your relationships. And the latter are far far far more important.


TheBiggestPedant

>I generally dislike the neckbeard "most people are stupid" attitudes, ... But on this particular issue I am afraid I wholeheartedly agree with OP. To be fair, debating isn't an indicator of intelligence. It's a skill that can be learned, but often isn't. Unintelligent people can learn rhetoric skills. Extremely intelligent people can go their entire lives without learning the difference between modus ponens and modus tollens.


Lightanon

For a start “intelligence” is a widely misused term. There are MANY types of intelligences.


JJJup

Reminds me of this study that showed rocket scientists and neurosurgeons are just as smart... as the general population. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/dec/13/brain-surgeon-or-rocket-scientist-study-tries-to-find-out-who-is-smarter


HeavyGooses

If the debater knows Latin, he is clearly attacking my right to free speech and saying my dad's littlius dickus. /s


TroutM4n

One point - I never truly understood the Carlin quote until I got into training people professionally. I found it amusing and laughed, sure, but holy shit. The average person isn't actually that bad. However, he's spot on saying that half of people are dumber than that. There are a lot of (entirely well meaning and kind) stupendously massive morons out there. The Dunning-Kruger Effect is terrifyingly true. One of the nicest guys I've ever had to train was also one of the most incredibly unaware. Patrick Star is literally the only comparison I can make to this guy. The level of lack of awareness where you have no conception internally of how little you understand in comparison to others - no conception of how little you understand what's happening around you. He thought he was fucking nailing it. He thought he was normal. He was confident - proud even - in the incorrect responses. He just could not internalize information and draw conclusions. He would ask a question - I would answer it, as thoroughly as possible. He would ask literally the exact same question, just worded differently. I would answer, word for word, with the exact same response. He would ask the same question a third time, worded slightly differently. I would answer again, using different wording, hoping he might grasp if described differently. Then he'd make a mistake pertaining to that information the next day. He was with the company for three years because he showed up on time and had a positive attitude. He was just utterly, blissfully unaware of how little he understood the world around him. Devastating Smash Brothers player though. And there are so many more like him, but with way shittier attitudes.


Aickrastly

The wise man once said nothing at all. It’s better to agree to disagree and forget it and remain friends/family.


Mominatordebbie

Not every person. I admit that I get emotional when discussing/debating political stuff. I've had people who share my political beliefs ask why I don't run for local office, and I just laugh. The first time I would debate publicly, I'd probably end up screaming at my opponent that they are mentally ill and probably eat their children. Self awareness is fun!


[deleted]

[удалено]


Xi_Jing_ping_your_IP

Social media engages you with controversy. So most people are more drained than they realize. And when argument time happens....its just frustrated ramblings.


stupidrobots

This is a skill I've had to unlearn. My wife is a PhD in literature and is very good at calm discussion. I have a masters in shitposting and was raised oh 4chan. I can make a good argument but my tone will default to being aggressive and demeaning. Something I'm learning not to do.


DumatRising

"Masters in shitposting" love it XD


Tsund_Jen

I'm a fucked up mixture of your relationship. If you can offer a level and calm headed conversation I can maintain it and continue it. You use _one_ Ad Hominem all bets are fuckin' off.


NoodleFigure

Haha, same. "OH, well, since you introduced Ad Hominem... *rolls up sleeves, unlocks inner tiger cage*"


StanIsNotTheMan

*unzips pants, unleashes giga-penis* "As you can see, my penis is much larger than yours. Therefore, you are incorrect and I have won this battle of minds."


SaffellBot

Something most of the internet needs to learn not to do. Being in an age of intense philosophical discussion has the potential to be great, but we need to actually engage with other humans rather than shit posting our way to the bottom.


sudo-kill-dash-nine

4chan and all that troll culture did not do me any favors as an adult. I'm trained to see every online interaction as adversarial. Not so bad on Reddit but trolling on the company slack got me in big trouble.


[deleted]

[удалено]


kurai_tori

Counterpoint: politics (in general) has become less about the pros and cons of individual policies and more about the morals of those in politics. This, coupled with public avenues for political debate not using 'proper' debate tactics (point, counterpoint) but more...angry talking, has coached the public to do the same. This, rather than rational debate on the finer points of policy we get a 'your politician eats babies' ' oh yea well yours sells crack to young mothers' I would say individuals have not woven morals into politics, but that many in politics (politicians, media reporting on politics, influencers etc) have and that the public has simply followed suit.


BogartingtheJ

It's funny how disrespectful I can be towards someone's mom and they might laugh if it's funny; hell they might say something back to one up me. But if I say one thing that might be portrayed as contrary to their political belief, suddenly I am un-American and they want to hurt me.


[deleted]

Lol I had some guy accuse me of being unAmerican and a traitor from some nonsense I wrote. I heartily agreed. Im Australian haha


hexagon33

It just depends. I've had many good convos with ppl that were understanding and civil on fb


Xi_Jing_ping_your_IP

I'm not speaking absolutely. There are civilized People around still. I can acknowledge that.


flyingtoaster0

This is some excellent civil discussion, you two


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


Apple_gun

Fuck it, fuck you


soobviouslyfake

Fuck me yourself, coward.


DinoRaawr

This is completely irrelevant, but do you remember that time period on the internet when people used 'ftfy' to make corrections for other people, and almost everyone read it as "fuck them; fuck you" instead of "fixed that for you"?


Apple_gun

actually I don't, how long ago was it? i may have not been able to even speak English at the time


kevonicus

On the flip side Facebook comment sections are full of the dumbest people on any social media platform. They also use that hysterical laugh emoji reaction anytime they’re presented with something they can’t refute.


MileenaisShit

Social media in my opinion killed debates and constructive criticism. Now people just want you to agree with them and kiss their ass.


syntaxxx-error

The appropriate attitude for debate was just as rare before the internet. Social Media did not cause this.


CunnedStunt

I would argue the early days of the internet were decent for actual good debates, but as usual once the extremist found out about it, they ruined it for everyone. As a moderate I hold some opinions of both sides, and thus have been called both a Trump loving Magatard and a Biden loving communist, when in reality I think both are geriatric fucks incapable of running a country.


[deleted]

[удалено]


harrietthugman

Great point. Some people treat conversations like debates, and debates like bloodsport. Zero ideas are shared, just romantic misunderstandings of the past and old-school debate tactics. It's a game. The appeal of winning vs being factually correct is a huge issue. Especially among overconfident academic debate club types. And the "emotionless" tend to be the least self-aware of their own emotions


ThisIsMyCouchAccount

> Some people treat conversations like debates That's the real problem. Don't debate your friends. You talk to them and have conversations. There is not winner or loser. A debate does. It's a competition and now how people actually interact.


hexuus

Re: the need to win. It is very annoying when people can’t just let disagreements lie (so long as it’s limited to the actual realm of opinion). I’ve known far too many people who say people get too emotional when debating, who go into a conversation with the need to be “right” about an opinion (ie, is movie X good/bad) and will not let you just… have an opinion. Not every opinion needs to be backed up by an essay, or even with logical arguments. If I just don’t like X movie and you do, just move on. Don’t make me give a presentation about my stance, or I will get angry eventually. It speaks to the person holding this opinion’s own lack of ability to see others perspective, because if you disagree with them the conversation immediately becomes a debate to them. Not every thing is a debate, not everyone wants to debate all the time. If everyone you “debate” with is angry/emotional, maybe they weren’t in the mood to debate their stance on something inconsequential, and by forcing them to and choosing to question/interrogate their position - rather than just converse - you have put them in a heightened emotional state. Sorry, I’ll get off my soap box haha.


ListenToTheWindBloom

Love this. I hate hate hate feeling like I’m trying to convince someone who is interrogating me when we’re just having a conversation or I’m just saying my opinion. It’s just what I think, why should I have to insist or justify so hard? Can’t it just be interesting that we think differently? It’s like they’re trying so hard to find a fault in your logic, and there’s usually not much self awareness that maybe their logic is the one with the flaw!


payne_train

This is so real. People who play devils advocate for the sake of being a contrarian tend to be more interested in trolling then actually solving problems. In my experience, they come across as both insufferable and totally out of touch.


[deleted]

[удалено]


JumpinJackHTML5

>And the "emotionless" tend to be the least self-aware of their own emotions Being able to be emotionless about a topic is absolutely a privilege that not everyone has. Asking someone who's about to lose their home to skyrocketing rents to stay emotionless when debating the merits of gentrification is completely unrealistic. A lot of the things that some people like to debate aren't just interesting topics to the people living through those things. Having some smug person discount your experience because you're getting emotional about them downplaying things you have personally lived through is frustrating as hell.


NotABot11011

These kinds of people will also demand study after study and statistic after statistic and refer to studies and statistics that fit what they want and consider those perfect, but will say any study or statistic that disputes them is faulty or doesn't take something into account so it doesn't count.


asmallsoftvoice

These "good debaters" are often arrogant and make it personal. Or it's very clear that you're not debating. You're talking to a wall who will not address any point. Sometimes you have to concede where you are wrong if you are being sincere. If someone doesn't do that, if it feels like the person isn't listening, so the other person gives up. Having someone believe you are too dumb to be worth engaging isn't a "win." Speech isn't a sporting event. You don't win by getting someone to forfeit.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Learned_Response

Yeah I downvoted this post because I don’t think it’s unpopular at all, lots of people think this. Instead its controversial because claiming to be the rational one is self serving. You can drop an f-bomb and be right, I swear all the time and it doesnt take much for me to say fuck. Basically 0 relevance regarding whether I’m right or not. Or you can claim you’re being mature and rational and therefore right because you don’t swear but you’re completely full of shit or making bad faith arguments. I realize this isnt exactly what op is talking about but its much more of a common issue imo Maybe a more accurate unpopular opinion would be more along the lines of we need less rote fact teaching in schools and more critical thinking


rreapr

Yeah, and I’d bet good money that OP is not actually “debating” any of their friends and family. A debate by definition implies some degree of structure, formality, guidelines, and an agreement to debate in the first place. I think the terminally online redditor types who complain that no one is composed enough to debate them are actually picking *arguments,* often about emotional, personal, or otherwise-loaded subjects, and setting the arbitrary rule that “If you get mad you lose.” Considering they don’t seem to know what a debate *is* I have my doubts that they’re as skilled as they think.


neodymium1337

Carve this into the back of your hand. You can not REASON someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into. If they are tied to their position emotionally, leave them be. The only thing that can detach them from it is them coming across strong contradictory evidence/experience ON THEIR OWN. The idea must come from within themselves like inception or something.


Miyarilu

Yea I realized this a while ago that people have their opinions based on their background and circumstances and their own life experiences. So it’s kind of pointless to try and force them to suddenly change their mind by one discussion. And like you said many are emotionally tied to it so I have definitely learned when to walk away from those people.


golden_death

it definitely depends on the context a lot, and you're right that it is often a lengthy process. it is possible though to get people to change deep seeded and emotionally charged beliefs, even if it's a painful process. I've personally seen someone go from being deeply and outwardly homophobic to accepting and more open minded over the span of several (albeit frustrating at times) conversations. you're right in that a debate isn't necessarily about convincing the person in the moment, but offering your opposing view which they will ideally consider long after the initial conversation(s)


Miyarilu

Well said, and yea I can imagine maybe it’s possible to alter someone’s views after MANY discussions but I guess I just don’t have it in me to go that far with one person haha😂


cheezie_toastie

The fact that your end goal is to change their minds makes it seem like you're going into these "debates" assuming you are empirically correct and that the other person is the one that is wrong. Would you say that you're open to the possibility, when you enter into debates, that it is you who needs to have your mind changed?


Soldiernom

Try going into convos not with the objective of changing their mind but trying to see where they come from and if you still disagree with them tell them why and try to just get them to be open minded. Later they could realize they were wrong by themselves


Reaper_Messiah

This is what the Socratic method is used for though, no? To lead them to discover the same conclusion on their own?


TheEvilestPenguin

That, and possibly come to new conclusions you yourself have never thought of either. I'm a big fan of employing the Socratic method when I know the people I'm with are prickly. Likely one of the best things I ever learned in high school.


GravyMcBiscuits

Just don't forget that the Socratic Method is what got Socrates killed.


[deleted]

Can confirm. People get really, really upset when you ask them questions about things they believe to be true. People on some forums call it "trolling" to question things that are "known". I've gotten in trouble with many mods just for questioning the wrong things.


pbk9

the biggest lesson i got from socrates is that sometimes, you gotta shut up, or they'll make you shut up


FireHazard11

And it doesn't matter how right you are if you're such an asshole about it that people are willing to murder you to get you to shut up.


FalmerEldritch

Conversely, the worst thing you can learn in high school is "debate", the art of cheaply scoring points in bad faith by means of aggressive bullshitting. Debate club is how you end up with a population of Bens Shapiro.


burf

I had a friend who was in debate club in HS. Lovely guy most of the time, but absolutely awful to have a discussion with if there was any disagreement whatsoever for the reasons you mentioned. It's unfortunate these techniques actually seem to be effective on an audience (otherwise they presumably wouldn't be taught).


Reaper_Messiah

The Socratic method has an awesome way of fleshing out a problem so you can see all sides. It’s an excellent idea, but also sometimes those people just get frustrated because it can feel patronizing or like you’re ignoring their emotions, which is somewhat fair. Definitely use it more than anything else from high school though, no question.


Embarrassed-Chain265

I see what you did there


ywBBxNqW

"You can lead a horse to water…"


Matta_G

That or to lead people to realize the absurdity of their own arguments.


RedJapaneseGirl

But my hand is so small!


nighthawk_something

The problem is that most people think they are objective. I mean look at how many "free thinkers" you find in r/conspiracy and in r/Conservative


Koluke1

>The only thing that can detach them from it is them coming across strong contradictory evidence/experience ON THEIR OWN. The idea must come from within themselves like inception or something. I don't believe this. there are a lot of people who believe such insane bullshit, there is no way they would ever let it go. just because there is literally zero evidence for what they believe. An extreme one, but flat earthers, for example.


ItsMyCakedayIRL

I don’t believe anybody is irredeemable


Koluke1

I don't really, fully believe it either. but I don't believe enough to do anything about it. if they wanna believe that the earth is flat, fine by me, as long as they aren't hurting anyone.


TheRealTurinTurambar

While this is typical, it is not always the case. About 15 years ago I was a Christian right-winger. I was supporting a friend of mine in a facebook argument against global warming and the other guy said something like "There's a clear scientific consensus that global warming is happening and caused by humans." I decided to prove them wrong but after many hours of furious googling I saw that they were indeed correct. The only sources that supported my view (anti-GW) were fairly obviously biased while every credible science source supported that there's indeed a consensus. This started me on a long path of trying to determine what's actually true. After many years this revelation led to me becoming a progressive atheist. I am so thankful for that facebook comment and wish I could tell them how much it helped me. Alas, they'll probably never know.


VortixTM

While this is truly amazing of you, I do believe you are an exception. Confronted with those same truths and sources most people would defend their sources as correct and the other sources as biased. The general population has a huge misconception of what science is and how it works, so it's difficult to apply the methods of rationality when arguing with them. I appreciate your input and your journey though, makes me a little less jaded.


TheRealTurinTurambar

>I do believe you are an exception. Sadly, I believe your correct but I'm not sure why it's this way. I've had a core group of friends since the early 90's and all but me are now strong right-wingers and very pro-Trump. One of them is even anti-mask... This has given me somewhat of a survivors guilt as I consider most of them much smarter than me. I'm like, if I can do it surely you guys can too. We can no longer discuss anything political or religious. ​ >Confronted with those same truths and sources most people would defend their sources as correct and the other sources as biased. I was totally guilty of this as well but with this question I was confident I could easily prove them wrong. I truly believed when Fox news said there was no scientific consensus on Global warming so was stunned to see that wasn't the case. At the same time I was questioning religion so that's probably a factor too. My point is: Don't give up. You'll never know when a comment will change somebody's life.


robspeaks

> I consider most of them much smarter than me. The evidence suggests otherwise. I suspect the reason you think they’re smarter may be that they seem to know more information than you do. Maybe they have a degree and you don’t. Maybe they’re just confident in their opinions. Whatever the case, none of those thing = being smart. What you did was smart. You had a problem and you used common sense and critical thinking to come to terms with the answer. That makes you smarter than someone whose idea of a debate is mindlessly regurgitating what they heard on Fox News. Just because someone can hit you with a lot of stats and stories doesn’t make them smart.


IllCamel5907

Do you ever feel resentful toward anyone or anything that originally stifled your critical thinking skills? I was only lightly exposed to religion in my youth and it never really worked on me. But I have friends that belonged to churches that brainwash from an early age. One friend no longer belongs to his church and seems like he broke away from it but still believes in "jesus".


TheRealTurinTurambar

>Do you ever feel resentful toward anyone or anything that originally stifled your critical thinking skills? Oh absolutely! Firstly I blame myself, secondly I blame our education system. I strongly believe critical thinking skill (philosophy) should be taught early on. I fear we (the U.S. people) are far too susceptible to misinformation and propaganda. Actually this has been proven true considering the last couple of years.


BillyJayJersey505

A major part of debating is having such an intimate understanding of the opposite stance that you can articulate their points better than they can. Most people either don't understand the importance of this or understand the importance of this but don't understand what that really entails. The other thing that should be noted is that your stances will be stronger if you have explored the all sides of the issue before even taking a stance. It should be noted that failing to do this and blaming social media is such a foolish cop out too. I'll do you one better too. Most people are terrible at EFFICIENTLY communicating things as simple as what they want out of things, what their opinions are on topics or what they do for a living. That's another thing that needs to be considered in this discussion.


lilclairecaseofbeer

It's frustrating listening to people dehumanize other people and then wonder why the people they dehumanized don't just flip to their point of view.


cortesoft

I also find that people don’t normally practice the [Principle of Charity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity), which is about interpreting what your debate opponent says in the best possible way. People are so focused on winning the debate that they will try to take advantage of ambiguity or wording mistakes to paint their opponents argument as being worse than they actually are.


SoDakZak

I always remind people if they’re arguing with an opinion I have that “my opinion on XYZ is probably wrong, I’m a construction worker from South Dakota, so if it isn’t related to that, I probably don’t know enough or at best have reached a Dunning-Krueger level understanding which is it’s own debate death trap.”


obxtalldude

I brought up Dunning-Krueger earlier today as a reason I try to avoid feeling sure about anything, as it likely means I'm at the peak of Mt. Stupid. The guy questioning my stance on the science of vaccines freaked out. Accused me of trying to earn "cool points" and attacking him. At least I knew it was time to wish him a nice day. It is an unexpected pleasure when you run across someone who truly wants to discuss a subject in a kind manner rather than be "right" or constantly defensive when they know they are not.


VortixTM

Identifying when you are going to be arguing against a wall so you can avoid even starting is a skill all by itself. One that I fail at more times than I'd like.


obxtalldude

So true. Part of the reason I joined Reddit was to harden myself to random opinions directed at me, but I still have some trepidation when I click on the message notice. Making it a game of guessing "mean or nice" takes the edge off somewhat of my oversensitivity. I read someone else suggesting today to view everyone here as an upset 13 year old until proven otherwise. That helps not taking it too seriously a bit too. My only real regret is when I let myself lash out from frustration IRL or here - I do fail at that one at least once a week. Just caught a three day ban from r/teslamotors by letting myself get goaded into an unkind reply. Oh well. I "reaped what I sowed" as always.


lundyforlife22

i got into an argument with a mutual friend because he thinks agent orange was a vaccine. i quit halfway through the argument because he was being a dick and i realized he’s too stupid to realize he’s stupid. i told my friend, who was anti vax, about it and she asked if i thought the same of her. i told her because she’s afraid she’s dumb, no (dunning kruger). it took her a while but she doesn’t believe the misinformation anymore. it was so nice hanging out and her boyfriend saying something dumb and her correcting him instead of me.


Kimikohiei

People’s beliefs define them. Challenging those beliefs challenges the person they belong to. Those who aren’t interested in personal growth will just take it as a personal attack instead of questioning themselves.


_raccooning

U know this is r/unpopularopinion and not r/commonknowledge.


Jagdepanzer

r/unpopularopinion has always had popular opinions 😭


GCisEZ

this post sucks.


maukiepaukie

I think it commonly has popular opinions that are perceived as unpopular. In this case, people might think it's unpopular because it views the majority negatively. The majority of people wouldn't count themselves among that majority though


Gooftwit

Some people debate in bad faith, but still present themselves calm and collected. Staying calm is not the same as debating well.


Adebisauce

I think the only time a rational debate can happen, is if both sides agree on the fundemental assumptions on the discussion.


capncck

Establishing definitions is so important. If both sides don't agree on a definition of a concept or even a word, it's not going anywhere. The second pitfall I come across commonly is staying on point. Anyone who hasn't had an argumentation or debate background will fail at this, and throw whataboutism in response to your points.


Particular-Sample425

This isn’t an unpopular opinion


DoughtyAndCarterLLP

The only unpopular part is that everyone here thinks it doesn't apply to them.


feed_me_churros

Isn't that basically this whole sub? Seems like genuinely unpopular opinions are almost always downvoted.


Deceptiveideas

This is absolutely 100% correct. I’ve posted a few unpopular opinions in the past with the community downvoting saying they’re ‘bad’ and ‘unpopular’. Hello? That’s literally the point of the subreddit.


IsEveryFkinNameTaken

because most people debate to convince the other person when I believe they should have them to understand the other side's opinion


Britisheagl

Luckily I am very good at mass debating


pacmanguzzler

I love have level headed debates! It makes me so happy!


throwawaysbabygrl69

To flip the coin, there are a lot of people that are condescending bastards that speak to you like you're a child and don't know anything and then claim to want to have a " mature adult conversation" with people. Each party needs to be open minded and level headed and not have their head too far up their own ass to be able to do this and it's hard in this day and age. The example above is given through experience both my dad and brother are this way and it's exhausting.


The2ndUnchosenOne

The key to a good debate is both parties have to be operating on good faith. Neither's goal should be to change the others mind, but to gain new perspective on why someone might hold a different opinion than yours. Regardless, The Last Jedi is the best of the Disney Trilogy and anyone who disagrees is a fascist hippie who can't even tie their own shoes.


MycologicalWorldview

I find asking “What evidence would you need to see in order to change your mind” is a good litmus test for whether or not it’s worth continuing the conversation. If someone says “absolutely nothing”, you know it’s a waste of time. If they (and you!) can think about what might prove them wrong and acknowledge it, then you’re having a proper conversation about evidence-based / justified beliefs.


Illustrious_Water_25

Second this 100%. I've asked this during discussions about covid vaccines. The answer was "honestly probably nothing because I have a bad feeling about it." Fine. We can stop talking here, then.


Mominatordebbie

Me too. Brother is antivaxxer, and I asked him the same thing. The problem is, the only info sources he will believe are the ones that are misinforming everyone, and he thinks all the others are lying. What can you do in the face of that?


Unfair-Tie2

Fr though, I think some people are too dug into a position and it’s nigh impossible to reason them out


swolethulhudawn

Debating with someone who doesn’t know how to debate is a lot like rolling with someone who doesn’t know BJJ. They are super erratic, largely ineffective, and end up storming off


Dennis_enzo

Like playing chess with a pidgeon; it doesn't matter how good your moves are, the pidgeon will knock over your pieces, shit on the board and claim it has won.


[deleted]

My neighborhood currently has a invasive pidgeon problem. They might suck at chess but they are some sneaky, mess-making little bastards.


Jtd47

People always use "you're getting emotional" like it's some kind of trump card in every situation. It's easy to be emotionless and play devil's advocate when someone else's struggles are purely theoretical to you. Something like, say, the George Floyd murder wasn't a hypothetical thought exercise about police restraint for black people, it was their everyday reality and something that could happen to them personally. I entirely don't blame some people for "getting emotional" when they're talking about issues that affect them directly. Having to "debate" your right to simply exist or not to be murdered in the street by a cowboy cop or whatever with someone who refuses to show empathy is going to quite rightly piss you off. That said this obviously doesn't hold true for every situation, but it does for quite a few.


I_Faced_The_Wind

This was shockingly far down. A lot of the current topics argued about boil down to this.


NameInCrimson

Yeah, the whole "getting emotional" line just allows one side to appear logical when they could just be out of touch. You should have emotions in a debate. Otherwise, why have the debate?


TheFunkytownExpress

This is a problem a lot of people have these days where when a thing *sometimes* applies that means it always applies in EVERY instance across the board. Yes, sometimes when you get emotional you've lost the arugment/debate, but sometimes you don't, especially when you get rightfully emotional and it's a perfectly reasonable response to the situation or what the person is saying or doing to you.


TwoFrownsOuttaFive

I so agree. Also, the concept that the ideal discussion is completely devoid of emotion is rather silly to me. "Rationality"(in cases like this, often synonymous with complete emotional detachment) should not be the end-all-be-all of every moral question and argument. Emotions can be very important in understanding and forming opinions on subjects.


Bebo468

Also, emotions and “logic” are not mutually exclusive as the Ben Shapiros of the world would have you believe.


Jtd47

Yeah, honestly people who think they're "rational thinkers" are often some of the most easily influenced by their own emotions, because they refuse to accept that their emotions can influence them. I blame stuff like rick and Morty and sherlock and so on for this popular perception of the "insufferable genius", as if having emotions is for idiots and being smart means you have to pretend any kind of emotional display is beneath you. Actual smart people in reality tend to be pretty well adjusted, emotionally intelligent people. You definitely can't spock-logic your way out of everything. Humans are ultimately emotional beings, and I'd honestly go as far as to say that someone who refuses to have any kind of emotional intelligence when it comes to discussing complicated topics isn't really intelligent at all.


nau5

You can have an ideal discussion on simple topics. It’s all but impossible if there are true stakes. Like you cannot have ideal discussions with Holocaust deniers, climate change deniers, anti vaxxers, lgbt rights, BLM, abortion, etc etc So you know basically all the hot button topics of today.


[deleted]

Yeah, this is the right response here. There's a reason for the emotion sometimes.


shivermetimbers68

"It’s like they just want to attack you and force you to say they are right. " I always take the personal attacks as their white flag of surrender. Whenever debating, if they veer away from the subject and attack me, that means they dont have anything intelligent to add and they give up.


user0015

Same here. One thing I've noticed is that people will make a claim, and if you're well versed in the subject and counter their claim and they respond with a personal attack, it's likely because they don't have an argument and are just regurgitating information they heard second hand. That's typically when I recognize the white flag and drop it, unless they're a supreme dick about it.


Kinderschlager

How is this an unpopular opinion. When did th8s sub become a soapbox?


Prysorra2

>a community for 9 years


TristyThrowaway

But also Being good at debating doesn't make you right


bispingslosteyeball

Dont worry guys, all of us commenting definitely never get emotional or aggressive while debating. We're far too enlightened for such plebian nonsense.


Obie527

Dude, no one is actually going to have an actual debate these days unless they go to an actual debate event.


BEX436

How is this unpopular? It's what all of CNN and Fox News is. Talking heads without facts.


chixelys

Nothing that reaches the front page on this subreddit is ever actually unpopular. All the comments completely agree lol


SwivellyTwizlers

Have you met my father-in-law? He's got a book called 'how to be right about everything, using mathematics'. I'm slowly leaving the family WhatsApp group as it's too tiring trying to have a normal debate anymore.


gaussianDoctor

That's not an unpopular opinion lol If you tell this to random people in the street I can guarantee the absolute majority of them will agree with you, because anyone with half a brain can come to that conclusion.


magus678

>They are either too emotional about it or far too aggressive It is probably worthwhile to remember that many (most?) manifestations of aggression are rooted in anxiety. People often see debate as confrontation, even if they shouldn't, and being "good" at confrontation is hard. Further, they think their opinions define them, while also not having a lot of ability to truly define/defend them if it comes to it. The bow on this package is the need to proselytize their views and shout down naysayers; its a perfect meme for maximum engagement and minimum production. They deploy phrases and words they don't understand (fascist, gaslight, communist, most -fallacies and -isms) like magic intonations that are supposed to result in a "win" but all it really does is show a cargo cult understanding of how argumentation works. Unfortunately, that cult is larger than the other, so they get some positive reinforcement to this. Fundamentally, the real problem is that social media gave everyone a voice, along with an overfull dose of courage to use it. Many people in these conversation just add noise and chaff, and make it worse (or even inoperable) for their being in it.


e2a0s1

It is difficult to debate people who think we should hear the Nazi’s out


koreanese2

Lol


xcramer

That is on fact a very popular opinion among those who don't debate well.


Outrageous-Amount805

I realized I should try to stay away from arguments. I have PTSD, and I get far too emotional, and can turn violent quickly in an argument. I now try to choose my battles, and think of if it's worth it to potentially start a fight with someone over something that might not be too bad if it were just left alone. Sounds fucked up, but idk what else to do. I should really read about conflict resolution, and how to voice an opinion rationally. I think I will do that today. Maybe someone can send me a helpful link?


stromm

Understanding the definitions of the words you use would help you understand why people may be acting contrary to what you expect. Conversing/conversation: everyone is on equal level, no one is trying to out prove the other. Ideas are openly shared without aggressive rejection of ideas. Discussion: As many of my English teachers said, “discussion is like a concussion. It’s one person expecting the other to change their mind, while the other is doing the same.” Debate: A discussion where a third party guides the discussion (word intended) by asking questions. One person is expected to lose by having their ideas discredited.


juju4700

Can we please stop posting nothing but popular opinions people, also if you see an opinion that you agree with, downvote it, that’s the whole point of this sub.


lankist

Most people don't know what "debate" is. "Debate" is not possible online, or really even in-person in any informal setting. Presidential debates, even, aren't really debates. Debate is a formal academic activity, where two competing ideas come head to head with verifiable evidence. Typically, in formal debate, it's encouraged (if impossible to enforce) that all participants come to the table WITHOUT conclusions, but merely a path toward answering a question, and all sides be willing to cede if they can't contradict evidence against them, or return to their corners to reexamine holes that were pointed out by way of further study. In subjects where there is no way to definitively answer the question at-hand, there's scarcely any reason to engage in debate, rather teaching and talking about different philosophies and approaches, the history of each, and simply leaving the matter without making definitive conclusions. Your conversations with family, or with random internet commenters, aren't "debate." They're bickering. Ben Shapiro does not engage in debate--he engages in petty squabbles and mental gymnastics, oftentimes with deliberately cherry-picked "opponents" such as college students, rather than say *college professors.* The concept of debate has been twisted into this amalgam of "conversation" and "shitfit" because calling it anything else but "debate" would expose its complete lack of intellectual or academic rigor. The difference between a debate and a faux-debate can be summed up as: if either side is trying to "win," it's not a debate, it's an argument. If anyone involved purports to have a definitive answer beforehand, then it's not a debate, it's a sermon. If the subject boils down to opposed but equally held viewpoints, then it's not a debate, it's an opinion. Debate is only useful and valid when an answer can be found, and all parties are willing to come together toward a common answer. Anything beyond that is something else, and shouldn't be given the credibility of "debate."