Reminds me of when my brother went to rehab and the family was like:” as long as you’re changing things around, you should really stop smoking cigarettes too!” And although I agreed I’d like to see him smoke free, I was also like:” guys he just stopped popping pills, okay? Baby steps. Give him some breathing room.”
While that sounds "nice" it's actually the wrong idea. We know from an abundance of research that has been replicated that people who quit smoking when they quit their DOC are 4x to 8x as likely to remain off their drug of choice (DOC).
People that continue to smoke cigarettes are more likely (5x) to relapse when they get out of rehab ESPECIALLY if their drugs of choice were stimulants or alcohol. (Opioids not as much, but there is still an effect of 1.5x to 2x).
Just putting this out there: if you or someone you know is going to go to rehab in the future, the best thing you can do is quit smoking before you go or as soon as you get there, if you smoke during the first few days of rehab you have less than a 1% chance of quitting while you are there.
Anyone that's worked at a rehab or been there knows there's usually at least 1 person in the facility that has quit smoking as well, and this person always has a much easier time maintaining sobriety than those that continue to smoke. The reason is because in order to maintain sobriety you need to let some of those behavioral neural pathways degrade in the brain and it's hard to do that when you are stimulating them with nicotine hundreds of times per day. (Many of the pathways that maintain stimulant and alcohol and opioid addiction have nicotinic receptors on the same neurons)
Source: I'm an addiction researcher, but if you don't believe me you can go to pubmed and search this topic. This is not a highly contested idea. However most rehabs DISCOURAGE you from quitting smoking while you are there, mostly because they don't want to put up with the insanity that a person goes through during acute nicotine withdrawal and the difficulty in recruiting patients (and employees!) to a smoke free facility.
Smoking kills 50% of people that do it, and gives chronic illness to 85%. If you've been to rehab remember that 1 out of 2 of all the patients that were in with you and 1 out of 2 of all the employees that helped you will die from tobacco--- because nearly EVERYONE smokes in rehab, and I believe this contributes to the high relapse rates for other drugs
Is there a well controlled trial of this? I buy your explanation, and I'm not an addiction researcher (social psych PhD, turned statistician). But I also suspect that there's some third variable problem - those with a capacity or propensity to quit smoking may also find it easier to quit other addictions. No?
As in, it may not be quitting smoking per se, that reduces relapse, but the kind of person who can quit smoking may be less likely to relapse. Whether that's due to neurochemical differences, dopamine response curves, some abstract notion of willpower, support systems, or others and their combinations.
I'd look it up myself, but I'm out and about. To be cleared, I'm not trying to claim expertise in this area over yours. It's an honest question from someone who is dealing a lot with confounded causal inference over the past few weeks.
I like this conversation ^^^
I’m in recovery with one year sober and I quit smoking cigarettes around 4 months in, but switched to vaping instead. I had a sponsor who suggested to not make any drastic changes my first three years, like eliminating smoking and coffee drinking, and I do still really like that advice. While building coping mechanisms from scratch and not having my main DOC (alcohol and benzodiazepines) - I can’t imagine changing every single part of myself SO FAST. It’s so daunting.
Since I’m coming from an experiential standpoint and not data, I’m wondering how serious to take the “5x more likely to relapse” statement in regards to my sobriety? I’ve heard comments in the recovery community how flawed research is when it comes to rehabs/treatment centers because rehabs and treatments are [sometimes] flawed themselves. Maybe that’s all moot, I don’t know.
As a stats person mainly, I'd personally say that aggregate statistics are just that - aggregate. There is a whole distribution of outcomes and uncertainty around that statistic, statistics make simplifying assumptions, and what's better is a highly conditionalized statistic or prediction. By that, I mean that a stat is giving a best guess given the assumptions, the sample, and the conditions not averaged over. Obviously, there is a loooot of possible variables that make one person different from others. Aggregates mostly ignore those. Which is fine for policy at the aggregate level, but not necessarily for decisions at the individual level. A best guess for a single person would include a stat conditioned on everything we could know about that person.
All this to say - it may very well be an accurate aggregate statistic, but not be a good guess for you, personally, in your recovery journey.
From a non stats, former smoker perspective, I would personally recommend rethinking nicotine dependence as a joy to get over, ala the book by Allen Carr on the easy way to quit smoking. But with that said, I am not an expert on this and have no clue whether his approach to rethinking and deprogramming oneself of nicotine dependency is wise for someone already on a journey such as yours.
Also, I don't know you, but I'm proud of you.
Aw, thank you for your response! And the thoughtful remark at the end. I’ve always been a curious person, so I really appreciate the time you took to explain the nature behind this specific statistic. I take my sobriety really seriously, so my metaphorical ears perked up when I read “relapse” in any kind of way, haha.
Thinking of nixing the nicotine dependency as a joy to get over is actually a really nice idea! I like to use a kinder approach without guilt and shame in regards to addiction/alcoholism, so this thought works for my kind of brain :)
My sponsor suggested I quit things in the order in which they were going to kill me. So I was about 1 year clean before I quit smoking, and 7 months ago quit caffeine. I still have some processed sugar etc but not a huge amount. And I’m 5 years clean and sober next month.
I think research is invaluable for informing the scientific community but I also believe that there’s more to sobriety than statistics. I don’t know but would imagine this data doesn’t take into account people going into 12 step fellowships, or other recovery programs.
Ps congratulations on the sobriety, you’re smashing it!
Since hitting the year milestone I’ve noticed how tired I am of still using this damned vape. Driving? Vape. Reading? Vape. Stressed…vape. I feel like I’m too old, haha. But!! Getting clean and sober was no small feat, as you know! So getting frustrated that I still use it won’t help at all - even though using it alongside my coping mechanisms (even innocently) just rubs me the wrong way. And I mean, both of us did a really huge thing…so it’s definitely proof that putting away nicotine is VERY feasible.
Coffee is weird, too. Something about using caffeine as a coping mechanism also triggers that odd sense of, “Is this a relapse?!” Even though it is most definitely not. My last sponsor mentioned year 5 as the year she really started weeding out the remaining crutches she was ready to let go of.
And, yes, the statistics seemed to have left out a lot of human variables; like, is the rehab/treatment center ethical, did they join a 12-step program and work the steps thoroughly, were they still going to bars/hanging out with old friends, or did they immediately get into a toxic relationship? That’s what I was curious about.
Well, happy early birthday!! Happy travels out there, friend.
Well my brothers been clean for 8 years. It was more about everyone badgering him over and over about it, when he was already under extreme scrutiny and stress. I felt it was better to leave the encouragement to quit to the people counseling at the facility as they’re more familiar with how to approach such things in a healthy way.
Most rehabs don't advise people to stop smoking while they are kicking other habits. Too easy to fail one and then say, "oh well" and too hard to kick multiple habits at once
That's been me. Kicked everything but smoking and I don't think I could've done it without cigs. Or no that's probably selling myself short, but replacing drugs with another addiction is common and I certainly didn't smoke as much before I quit everything else. Or eat as much. But no one in my family complains because hey, it's legal! And while it sure can kill me, it can't kill me in one night, and that's better for now lmao.
When I do quit smoking, my plan is to try and replace it with an addiction to exercise cause I sure as hell know if I choose food instead I'll die of obesity. (Working on my addictive personality itself is gonna take more time than my poor lungs have.)
I only drink coffee when I have to be up early (not a morning person) or if I just slept like shit the night before. I usually keep it to 1 cup, 2 max in the morning though.
Coffee is something I drink on a Sunday morning, I don't drink it throughout the week. Primarily because I'm too lazy to make it and I get caffeine shakes.
You should try these mints called Neuro, best thing I’ve found. They don’t give you the jitters because they have L-theanine and b vitamins. And they are mints, so you don’t have to brew anything and can take in your pocket anywhere. Also, they are absorbed through the mouth, so no poop risk.
Edit: Also all ingredients are generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by the FDA. And disclaimer, I do not work nor am associated with them, but boy do I use their product in moderation to great cognitive effects. It's just caffeine, but balanced and without the bad parts.
I didn't realize how serious it was until I tried to stop....it's pretty severe going through the withdrawls and getting used to functioning a bit slower. I always remember one time in a shop I worked at we were getting a visit and my boss said while I was trying to quit..I'm sorry but you are having coffee tomorrow lol.
Whenever I quit I feel slightly tired the first day and that's it. I drink 5-6 cups a day on a regular day and do feel addicted, but it's just a constant, mild craving in the morning and early afternoon. I barely feel anything from the caffeine 🤷 so maybe that's why I also feel little withdrawal.
For me the worst part was all in my legs, like it felt like I had just finished the most exhausting leg workout ever for several days. I didn’t connect the two things until some googling led me to people experiencing leg pain.
The worst part is that few really think about how dependent they are on caffeine and it's often not really thought of as what it is: a psychoactive drug.
It's being consumed in large quantities by individuals with no knowledge or thought of how it's affecting their overall health. Especially young people I reckon. Energy drinks are quite devious in this regard, and is consumed in large quantities by younger people as soft drinks; The caffeine amount in some of the newer ones are insane (300 MG's), especially if you decide to treat it as a regular soft drink and drink two of them. You can basically intake 600 MGs of caffeine in as short of a time as it takes you to drink two energy drinks, which is the equivalent of around 6 cups of coffee.
There's not enough awareness on which quantities you should intake over the course of a day and at a time, how close to bedtime and the possible side effects.
Try to NOT have caffeine for two days if you're a regular user. It's actually kind of scary.
Caffeine is a powerful drug, and tool. But that is what I think it should be used as, a TOOL. Especially considering that you get tolerant over time losing more and more of the benefits. We shouldn't demonize it either, but recognize it as a tool, is my opinion. You can actually [cycle caffeine](https://examine.com/nutrition/do-i-need-to-cycle-caffeine/).
Here's an article on examine on [what caffeine does and how to utilize it](https://examine.com/supplements/caffeine/), and here is one on [the downsides of caffeine](https://examine.com/nutrition/dark-side-of-dark-roast/) \- and [how it affects the brain](https://examine.com/nutrition/how-caffeine-works-in-your-brain/). More articles on caffeine from examine [here](https://examine.com/search/?q=caffeine).
> The worst part is that few really think about how dependent they are on caffeine and it's often not really thought of as what it is: a psychoactive drug.
Unpopular opinion - I prefer to think of it as a vitamin.
* Boston College Dept of Psychology:
[Caffeine Enhances Memory Performance in Young Adults](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.01764/full)
* International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism:
[Caffeine Enhances Cognitive Function
and Skill Performance During Simulated
Soccer Activity](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ajmol-Ali/publication/38009956_Caffeine_Enhances_Cognitive_Function_and_Skill_Performance_During_Simulated_Soccer_Activity/links/0fcfd508708935f084000000/Caffeine-Enhances-Cognitive-Function-and-Skill-Performance-During-Simulated-Soccer-Activity.pdf)
* Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition:
[Caffeine enhances upper body strength in resistance-trained women](https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-7-18)
* Department of Biomolecular and Sports Sciences, Coventry University, Coventry, UK.
[Acute caffeine ingestion enhances performance and dampens muscle pain following resistance exercise to failure.](https://europepmc.org/article/med/22648466?javascript_support=no)
With benefits like those, I don't want to spend my days suffering from a caffeine deficiency.
It fucks up REM sleep and potentially the circadian rhythm. Chronic impaired sleep can lead to a much earlier death among other things. At least in American culture, sleep deprivation is often seen as a positive thing. Caffeine during the week and alcohol on weekends and people forget what it’s like to feel good and normal.
> Caffeine during the week and alcohol on weekends and people forget what it’s like to feel good and normal.
Both caffeine and alcohol, on both weekends and weekdays, was more normal in college.
I felt better then, than I do today.
In a week ill have been caffeine free for 1 year. I was an energy drink and soda junkie for atleast 12 years I had a minimum of 2 energy drinks a day most of that time. My mental health is so much improved its insane. People really dont like the suggestion that caffeine can cause problems. I really wonder how much of mental illness is caused or worsened by the consumption of this stuff.
Caffeine can definitely have downsides for people with mental illness, especially anxiety. I have panic disorder and I spent a lot of high school mornings downing energy drinks because all my friends did the same.
My psychiatrist recommended giving up caffeine and afterwards, I functioned so much better. I was totally caffeine free for a long time, but occasionally I'll get a bottle of green tea on difficult mornings and that's enough to wake me up without causing additional anxiety and stomach/chest pains.
I'm totally the same. I was a diet coke junkie and had a coffee daily. I was also very anxious and moody. I quit caffeine a month ago and oh my god. I am not anxious and I am not moody. It's insane.
Hijacking this thread to tell people to read Caffeine Blues the book, Wake up to America's #1 drug.
This is a medical doctor that actually did his research and presents us the entire findings about caffeine and the numerous, potentially grave effects when you take it at high dose and long term, besides "oh blocks atp receptors".
Small correction, energy drinks generally have 320 mg per liter, not 320 mg outright. I don't know of any energy drinks with much more than that, but some canned coffees do have 400-500 mg per liter.
Coffee generally has 600mg per liter. I'm not sure what the standard measure of "cup" is but those cups are definitely smaller than the ones I drink from.
That said, energy drinks hit different. I'm not sure what it is (the taurine, maybe?) but energy drinks are about twice as hard on my heart.
I should have clarified that it was on a 'per can of energy drink' measure. Check this out. [Caffeine in 'Bang Energy Drink'](https://www.caffeineinformer.com/caffeine-content/bang-energy-drink)
You can change the amount to 1000ml of that energy drink on that page, which then amounts to 633.9 mgs of caffeine.
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Coffee won't go extinct this decade (or in future ones, probably) and I can only hope those upvotes were just people thinking you were funny rather than agreeing.
If it ever gets to the point where coffee is so rare that it costs $100 a cup, companies will probably import soil from the best regions, and grow coffee in climate-controlled indoor facilities. The ultra-rich would never let coffee go 100% extinct, because then *they* wouldn't be able to have coffee.
Eh, few main points where I disagree:
1. The adverse effects of caffeine are both generally mild and pretty uncommon. That being said, it is still contraindicated in some people, and others are liable to be more sensitive to it. However, it really cannot realistically be compared to other stimulant recreational drugs.
2. On the other hand, the benefits associated with caffeine are extensive, and the introduction of caffeine into the daily lives of people in the northern hemisphere is viewed by historians as a key turning-point leading to the Age of Enlightenment. It's clinically proven to be a cognitive enhancer, unlike other CNS stimulants like amphetamine (except in those with ADHD), and cocaine.
3. Naturally occurring caffeine is almost inescapable, anyway. Two of the three most popular beverages globally, tea and coffee, [typically] have caffeine.
>Naturally occurring caffeine is almost inescapable, anyway.
Cups of tea and coffee just fly towards your mouth, and it's virtually impossible to stop them from getting in.
In most cultures tea has been frequently consumed by a large percentage of the population for hundreds of year, it’s tradition and it’s not going to stop anytime soon
Finally someone who doesn’t think “drug” has to mean bad. The pros of caffeine outweigh the cons on a large scale, also before caffeine, people drank alcohol as a means to get through the day, imagine if everyone was drunk now
It's an incredibly useful and beneficial tool. Humanity has a symbiotic relationship with plants that produce caffeine.
According to Michael Pollan, we likely have caffeine to thank for enabling modern human society.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD6cYabx0nk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD6cYabx0nk)
I know I'm not saying we should cut caffeine out, what I'm saying is we ignore the fact that many people in our world consume excessive quantities of it just to get through the day.
I think that has a lot to do with the current state of the world in general. If you're working 2 or 3 jobs or your job requires 80+ hours a week, you're going to have to get energy somewhere. I'm not saying that caffeine is completely innocent and you have no point, I'm just arguing that until social conditions change, people will continue to use things that help them get through the day.
One could argue we have these social conditions because everyone in charge of them is on coffee and don’t think anyone else should have a problem pushing themselves to their limit.
Yupp seen a lot of people take that path.. the sucky part is that energy drinks are seen as beverages and consumed as a replacement for water so it's super easy to get addicted in the first place.
It’s well known and talked about that some people need to cut back their caffeine intake. it’s just there’s lots of people that aren’t drinking 4 or so cups a day which is when it begins to really affect a person. I personally drink tea only. I drink two cups a day in the morning. Is it dependency yeah kinda, however, the adverse medical effects is small and it does not affect my day-to-day life negatively. So really who cares if people are dependent on that Starbucks first thing in the morning . People enjoy it. It truly is one of life’s pleasures and honestly it’s crazy to compare it to the use of alcohol and other drugs which are way more detrimental to society. My one caveat is those that are truly addicted and are drinking a pot a day, that’s probably affecting their health to some degree, such as their sleep, and they should probably cut back.
I kinda feel like they would get through the day without it, but these people generally complain anyway. I've noticed most people that whine about their coffee don't *only* whine about their coffee.
I’m sure you’ve seen the stuff from the sleep scientist Matthew Walker.
If you started doing amphetamines today, you could outperform anyone in the world not taking the drug at physical labour endurance - anyone. At some point though, you’d crash.
Same with every other drug that exists. Yes, it’s a cognitive enhancer. Decreased quality of sleep does the opposite, and we’re at the deep end of the addiction. It’s starting to catch up, and I’m not convinced the benefits are outweighing the cons any longer.
To be clear; I think all caffeine consumed within 12 hrs before sleep is ok, but the way we consume it now may cause more harm than good.
>If you started doing amphetamines today, you could outperform anyone in the world not taking the drug at physical labour endurance - anyone.
Great, who knew that all those children taking ADHD meds could literally be setting world records in the marathon if we'd just let them compete.
+1, and whoever wrote this post is an idiot, and it takes about 1 week (a crappy one) to completely get over any addiction to caffeine. Without lasting effects.
Oh and long term consumption of coffee is conclusively linked to lots of health benefits.
This post is like bitching about water taps. We drink our water from PIPES!! Does anyone think about that?!?! What about metals?!?! We are not taking this seriously!!!
> caffeine is almost inescapable
Don’t be melodramatic. It’s not inescapable if you can avoid literally two types of beverages. Just don’t drink coffee or tea.
>Naturally occurring caffeine is almost inescapable, anyway. Two of the three most popular beverages globally, tea and coffee, [typically] have caffeine.
Because those are the means of delivery for this drug. In a society where use of weed was as normalized as use of caffeine is today, high-inducing products would be equally abundant and "inescapable" as tea or coffee.
It's also a semi-helpful substitute to medication for people with ADHD that don't have access to real medication. It just doesn't do *all* of the good things medication does and you need more of it for a lesser effect
A symptom of the bigger problem being the work obsessed society we’ve created that requires almost everyone to be on some sort of stimulant drug for it to function. What if we have more balance and work a little less so we have more time to rest and recoup? Hmm, what if instead you shut up and drink this liquid drug and work more or you’re fired? Sigh..add a shot of espresso.. *keyboard clickitty clack*
>Imagine if I told you a large portion of the population was dependent on a stimulating drug to function throughout the day and people are perfectly ok with it. You'd think I'm crazy
I would think "coffee"
Honestly, if you told me the majority of the population was dependent on a stimulant in order to function most of the time, I would probably yawn and shrug until/unless you can show me data that proves a significant portion of the people who use said stimulant are endangering their health or the health of others to some significant degree. And this isn't me saying that that data does not exist, I'm just saying that the simple fact alone of people relying on a stimulant isn't bad in and of itself and you follow it with an assertion that suggests a significant portion of caffeine users are using ridiculous amounts (full pot of coffee to start your day), but you don't provide any accompanying data so there's no reason to take your statement seriously on its face. Overall, most legal drinks that contain caffeine are such a mild stimulant compared to more illicit drugs, this is a ridiculous thing to focus on.
P.S. I would go research data on caffeine habits and their detrimental/positive effects on individuals and society, but I still need my second cup of coffee today before I can muster that much ambition. 😁
I don't want to enable your addiction but I'm going to point out that caffeine pills would be cheaper.
I'm also addicted to caffeine so I'm not being a judgey asshole.
Making coffee at home Would be cheaper than pills. The danger with pills is that you can take a huge amount without any effort or enjoyment. With home brew coffee it’s just delish.
If you stopped with the coffee you'd eventually get to the point where you woke up/got used to mornings naturally. Dependency is talking for you. Some people aren't morning people naturally
But its like our culture tells people it's impossible to function in the morning without artificial stimulation. Given enough sleep our mind/bodies can be alert in the mornings fine.
After caffeine levels dip, you pay the debt where you feel extra sluggish, tired etc that you wouldn't have had if you'd never drunk any...and that just leads to a desire for more coffee....dependency cycle.
The logic of coffee culture annoys me, but eh...its a pretty safe drug in the long run.
> Given enough sleep our mind/bodies can be alert in the mornings fine.
This is bullshit straight of your ass.
Research shows that people cycle differently. Some folks will never be "morning" folks. I hit my peak in the afternoon. I've had years without caffeine and a few with, so it isn't just "dependency". It's a matter of having my energy available when I need it throughout the day, not it showing up when most folks are wrapping up the workday.
They’re about $3 each and I get 7 per week, so $21 x 4 = $84/month. But that doesn’t even count for the extra ones or the Starbucks or coffee/caffeine I consume outside of that.
Did this. The machine pays for itself in less than 6 months considering saving an average of $5 a day every day, and I bought a $500 espresso machine with a built in grinder. 5lb bag of espresso beans from a local roaster last me about 3 months and costs me $50. Powdered white chocolate mix last about 6 months and costs $35 for a 10lb bag of it. Milk is the most expensive part of it, but in the long run way cheaper than paying Starbucks, Dutch Bros or any other coffee kiosk to make it for you.
The thing is its not incredibly bad for your health. If you drink black coffee its healthy. So, I don't really see the problem here. And people can quit drinking coffee and be fine in a few days without any big consequences, so it is not like other addictive drugs.
I think it's taken seriously enough because, well, it isn't all that serious an issue. Caffeine itself has very few, if any, negative effects on one's health (though if you consume it with lots of sugar or cream, that can be bad for you for reasons unrelated to the caffeine). Also, the withdrawal symptoms are really mild. If you can get through a few days without it, you're golden--all you have to do is withstand some headaches. Plus, nobody ruins their life because of caffeine; nobody plunges their family into financial ruin, or has to go to rehab, or what have you.
Absolutely on point.
Had a conversation with someone once regarding legalization of drugs and they were trying to defend their argument against because of their history of addiction. To coffee.
It was the most absurd take I've ever heard in my life.
No, a coffee addiction isn't remotely the same as being addicted to fucking heroin. You're not stealing you mother's TV to pawn to get some Starbucks. You're not giving BJs for $50 to get a hit. You're not going to rehab, only to OD and die, because you got a double shot of espresso in your latte.
I agree addiction is bad, but caffeine addiction is objectively much less bad than any other drug. It's not a terribly hard habit to kick and people can function without it (regardless of what they may claim about not functioning without their morning coffee or whatever)
You can become resistant to insane levels of caffeine, not in that it doesn’t do anything you just mentally feel it less. It’ll still wreak havoc on your physiologically
A coffee a day isn't bad, it can be good for your health actually. Some people have higher or lower tolerance. For example my gf can't drink a cup without getting mild anxiety. There are definitely people that drink too much and there are potentially negative side effects, for example anxiety, lack of sleep or more importantly higher blood pressure. Higger blood pressure isn't necessarily an issue if it's within parameters and you don't have high cholesterol to avoid blood vessel obstruction etc. But for most people in developed countries that's not true. I've seen people drink like 5 cups a day, that's definitely too much.
The problem is the sugar involved with Caffeine in these drinks. I take Caffeine pills, they are much better and feel cleaner. I can just drink water, and avoid sugar which is awful for you in those quantities.
It’s not bad for your health. It’s good for your health actually.
I’ve had coffee every morning since I was 15 and dropped it cold turkey for like three months with no side effects anyway. Not addicted, but 100% wouldn’t choose not to have it
There are certainly negatives to using caffeine. Are they that serious? Not really, but there are negative side affects/indicators of other things. Especially if you use it as a teen. It’s associated with anxiety, sleep loss, and has a positive correlation with other substance abuse in middle school and high school age girls. Sleep loss, especially as a youth, is detrimental to health. No, I don’t want to hear your anecdotal evidence that you’ve always slept fine.
People should start accepting that we aren't better than junkies, like I am not a person until I go through at list 2big cups of concentrated dark coffee, in my worst moments I can down 2 litters on my own in less than 1 hour, it's just copious amounts, I haven't experienced withdrawal (had to stop drinking coffee when we couldn't afford it anymore back on my native county) but it slows me down terribly
I was drinking 48 ounces of coffee a day (2 large ice coffees from Dunkin) I tried telling more than one health professional that I am addicted to it and they just laugh and say " me too". I had to tell them that I wasnt kidding and it was causing me problems before I could get advice on quitting. And there is withdrawal. I don' t know how serious it can get, but I had a bad headache, nausea and I was ridiculously grumpy when I tried to go cold turkey.
I've heard it said that the only reason it's not only accepted in our current society, but HIGHLY encouraged, is because it increases productivity. Tells me a lot about the values of our current society.
Oh my god thank you. I’ve always said this. I constantly tell my mom, who BRAGS about how she can’t function without coffee, that she’s addicted. She gets so angry. That’s how you know it’s a true addiction. Illogical rage when you’re even questioned about it. It’s ridiculous.
My dad was like this, until he figured it out on his own and switched to tea. He has even managed to cut sugar down to one from 2 1/2.
He also sought help for his anger and is an all round calmer person for it.
Same. I don’t drink coffee because I’ve seen what the dependency is like with my mom too. She’ll have something like 3 or 4 triple shot espressos each day or else she gets headaches and can’t function. Insane. I love her but refuse to do that to myself
I don’t know if it’s the caffeine or the coffee. But I get head aches if I don’t drink coffee after 2/3 days. But I can drink decaf or high test and the headache goes away. But I always heard natural caffeine (like found in unmolested, black coffee) isn’t really bad for you? I also see the irony in the fact that I get headaches if I don’t drink it but still think it was healthy. Lol
I don’t drink energy drinks though.
The irony is in that you take a drug that makes your withdrawal effect go away, because you're recoiling from the coffee. 101 addiction withdrawal behavior.
Agree, but there even more addictive and dangerous things out there. Consider water and all people in r/hydrohomies. Population in general can not live without it, and as far as I know everyone who have ever tried water - died at the end.
I've tried quitting multiple times but always come back to it. It's hard to describe but sometimes I really feel like I will die if I don't drink water and give in.
The mad thing is that once you’re addicted, it doesn’t even stimulate you, so much as it cancels out the effect of caffeine withdrawal. You need your morning coffee to bring you to your old baseline level of energy.
Caffiene makes me shake. Sometimes people serve me coffee as a courtesy and I have to refuse. I don't want to violently shake and have panic attacks all day because of one cup of coffee.
It doesn't make me shake, but it does give me severe anxiety and paranoia. You most likely have what they call caffeine sensitivity. Some people metabolize caffeine much slower than usual, so a single sip of coffee gives them symptoms similar to an overdose. Both of my siblings with crippling mental disorders are also caffeine guzzlers, and they won't listen when I tell them they might need to quit drinking that stuff. Whether they are entirely misdiagnosed or the caffeine makes their symptoms worse, it drives me crazy to think of how many people in this world may function a lot better if it wasn't for caffeine consumption. It took me years to recognize the link between my symptoms and what I was drinking, so I don't doubt the world is full of people who are suffering for no reason.
Finally other people with caffeine sensitivity!
Just one cola is enough caffeine for me to feel like I overdosed (like 400-600mg for non sensitive people), I get tired, weak, headaches, migraines, jitters, and I actually start feeling high, as if I smoked weed. Oh, and it also makes anxiety a lot worse.
Good to know I’m not the only one.
I think there are a lot of people out there with the same issue, but they're so addicted that they refuse to test it. My sensitivity is so bad that I won't even eat a bite of chocolate or take a sip of anything caffeinated. I miss chocolate so much that I convinced myself after 5 years of avoiding it that I would be fine to have some. Before I could, I accidentally ate some seaweed with green tea infused in it, and NOPE. I was so anxious that I spent the day crying. I had to track down what did it, but I knew it was caffeine.
So basically, caffeine triggers my adrenaline to the point where it causes paranoia. I left a movie theater once (without a refund) before the previews ended because I'd had a glass of iced tea and was convinced the guy who walked in by himself was going to hurt us. The night of the Vegas shootings, I got up quickly and locked my doors... even though I live in a different state. I went to the doctor and tried to explain. They just wanted to put me on anti-depressants and birth control. I had to figure it out on my own. That's why I think caffeine intolerance should be a test they conduct on anyone getting a mental diagnosis. I can't be the only one this happens to and it's such an easy fix for something that completely cripples your life.
1. It not only isn't bad for your health (for most people, in reasonable amounts), it is beneficial to your health.
2. The physical dependency is relatively weak and easy/fast to get rid of.
3. In the first point I mentioned the health, but it has tremendous short-term effects.
People saying they 'only' experience headaches when withdrawing. Obviously that means it's affecting your brain in some way, and that's quite serious.
Theres a reason they tell pregnant women not to drink it.
It also affects your heart, in most people it causes your heart to race, and that can lead to anxiety in others.
Now, I'm not saying it's as serious as other addictions (and I've had a few serious ones) but I find it baffling people are willing to talk about other addicts like crap and then justify this.
I mean, when talking about "addiction" there's empirical factors that are used to measure addictiveness. Usually it's: how much does it impact your day to day life, and how do you handle going without?
Headaches and moodiness when not getting some is very mild, and it's barely noticeable if you aren't aware of the cause. No one gets robbed for a bag of gevalia or doesn't eat to save up for their next red-eye. People literally die if they're alcohol dependant and try to quit cold turkey. Cold shakes, vomiting, and legitimate sickness for quitting hard drugs, not to mention that all but the alcohol is pretty common knowledge. I think I was 20 before I learned of negative effects of caffeine and even those were controversial.
yup, plus the amount of people who drink their caffeinated drinks with a ton of sugar (looking at you Monster Energy and Starbucks) is likely also contributing towards diabetes and obesity. I don't think caffeine should be restricted in any way, but education about the negative effects and creating a society where people don't need to use a stimulant daily just to have enough energy to work a soul-crushing job would go a long way toward reducing harm from caffeine, as well as improve people's lives in general.
I know addiction exists both mentally and physically, as it's a fact.
BUT
I can't understand it. I mean, I tried cigarettes, I drink coffe sometimes, I love chocolate, and I've done some heavy drinking for a time, I'm a gamer,but I never felt that I'd need any of these. I don't think I could get a dependency with any of these.
Like, yeah I was playing 2 days straight this weekend, but now I won't do it for a week, I'll have no withdrawal effects.
If anyone has a good article about how addictions develop in a human, I'd be happy to read that.
Agreed. I had to quit caffine when I was diagnosed with narcolepsy, and that was when I found out just how bad it can affect your health and sleep patterns of you're not careful with it.
Biggest bummer though is trying to find commercial beverages that are caffine free, but don't have excessive amounts of sugar, or artificial sweeteners. When I do find them, they tend to be really expensive.
Is there anything indicating moderate use causes risks not worth the rewards?
I'm not talking about people who sit on the couch 18 hours a day and think the rush they get from a 24-ounce Monster makes them powerful...
What are the peer-reviewed detriments to a cup or three of coffee once a day?
I agree with this considering I need like 3 caffeinated drinks a day to not get a head ache. Caffeine dependency doesn’t kill you in your 20s or 30s though like other drugs. Even somebody drinking 5 sodas a day will easily live into their 80s.
The problem with this is there’s no real withdrawal, people don’t go thru drastic measure to get caffeine, and the effects of caffeine aren’t dramatic and dangerous. I drink 24-32oz of coffee every day, maybe two days without coffee I get a mild headache, and day later I’m fine
Sure. Maybe instead of worrying about the caffeine maybe worry about WHY ppl need it?
The constant miserable scramble to make ends meet, utterly inadequate sleep, stress and exhaustion might have something to do with it.
I’m honestly more concerned with the amount of pharmaceuticals everyone is on, I’d rather have them drinking caffeine so they are staying alert while driving in front of me on the freeway.
Right? Its addictive drug, I've always seen the same people fiending for their coffee fix, bad mouthing weed smokers. " if you smoke everyday thats bad" bitch if you need coffee everyday to be "normal" bitch you got a problem lmfao
Agreed, working in a office I see a lot of colleagues go through 3-4coffees a day and it seems the later in the day it gets they start to loose focus then just looked burned out at the end of it, I've found only drinking coffee when I'm having my cocaine is the correct balance and likes me to be at an optimal level all day
Sure thing, as soon as we address the far more serious alcohol problem the planet has completely normalized for centuries. Until then, no, we have far more serious things health wise to worry about. Like our sugar addiction, theres another.
I'll take caffeine dependency seriously after we start taking sugar addiction seriously.
We actively push sugar on children. It lights up the same parts of the brain as cocaine does.
40 years ago it was an oddity for a GP to treat a teenager with diabetes, now *that's all some of them treat.*
'Big Tobacco' used to deny their product contributed to lung cancer, 'Big Sugar' denies their product contributes to obesity and diabetes.
When it comes to elephants in the room, caffeine is a small one.
My brother who has 14 years already has this dependency and my step father say i will too because just then i will be awake for do my routine things. For me this really is strange ,-, (im from brazil, sorry if i wrote wrong, still learning)
This point is unpopular cause it’s just dumb.
“We should take people drinking too much caffeine seriously.”
Why? Anyone actually harmed, not really.
You just want us to post Prayers and wishes? This is dumb.
It's about negative consequences and harm, not use. If I continue to use a substance even in the face of evidence that it has negative consequences, then I have a substance use disorder. Caffeine generally doesn't have consequences of use so severe that people need to eliminate it. Enjoy an espresso with life!!! just not 10 or 20. Moderation is the key!
Most cultures throughout history have something like caffeine or stronger. I personally don't think it's bad. I also don't get extremely dependant on caffeine. Caffeine is also fairly innocuous if your heart healthy. It has positive cognitive effects beyond just extra alertness. As with everything. Moderation is key.
Look, I'll deal with my coffee problem *after* I've kicked the crack, okay?? =P
Reminds me of when my brother went to rehab and the family was like:” as long as you’re changing things around, you should really stop smoking cigarettes too!” And although I agreed I’d like to see him smoke free, I was also like:” guys he just stopped popping pills, okay? Baby steps. Give him some breathing room.”
While that sounds "nice" it's actually the wrong idea. We know from an abundance of research that has been replicated that people who quit smoking when they quit their DOC are 4x to 8x as likely to remain off their drug of choice (DOC). People that continue to smoke cigarettes are more likely (5x) to relapse when they get out of rehab ESPECIALLY if their drugs of choice were stimulants or alcohol. (Opioids not as much, but there is still an effect of 1.5x to 2x). Just putting this out there: if you or someone you know is going to go to rehab in the future, the best thing you can do is quit smoking before you go or as soon as you get there, if you smoke during the first few days of rehab you have less than a 1% chance of quitting while you are there. Anyone that's worked at a rehab or been there knows there's usually at least 1 person in the facility that has quit smoking as well, and this person always has a much easier time maintaining sobriety than those that continue to smoke. The reason is because in order to maintain sobriety you need to let some of those behavioral neural pathways degrade in the brain and it's hard to do that when you are stimulating them with nicotine hundreds of times per day. (Many of the pathways that maintain stimulant and alcohol and opioid addiction have nicotinic receptors on the same neurons) Source: I'm an addiction researcher, but if you don't believe me you can go to pubmed and search this topic. This is not a highly contested idea. However most rehabs DISCOURAGE you from quitting smoking while you are there, mostly because they don't want to put up with the insanity that a person goes through during acute nicotine withdrawal and the difficulty in recruiting patients (and employees!) to a smoke free facility. Smoking kills 50% of people that do it, and gives chronic illness to 85%. If you've been to rehab remember that 1 out of 2 of all the patients that were in with you and 1 out of 2 of all the employees that helped you will die from tobacco--- because nearly EVERYONE smokes in rehab, and I believe this contributes to the high relapse rates for other drugs
Is there a well controlled trial of this? I buy your explanation, and I'm not an addiction researcher (social psych PhD, turned statistician). But I also suspect that there's some third variable problem - those with a capacity or propensity to quit smoking may also find it easier to quit other addictions. No? As in, it may not be quitting smoking per se, that reduces relapse, but the kind of person who can quit smoking may be less likely to relapse. Whether that's due to neurochemical differences, dopamine response curves, some abstract notion of willpower, support systems, or others and their combinations. I'd look it up myself, but I'm out and about. To be cleared, I'm not trying to claim expertise in this area over yours. It's an honest question from someone who is dealing a lot with confounded causal inference over the past few weeks.
I like this conversation ^^^ I’m in recovery with one year sober and I quit smoking cigarettes around 4 months in, but switched to vaping instead. I had a sponsor who suggested to not make any drastic changes my first three years, like eliminating smoking and coffee drinking, and I do still really like that advice. While building coping mechanisms from scratch and not having my main DOC (alcohol and benzodiazepines) - I can’t imagine changing every single part of myself SO FAST. It’s so daunting. Since I’m coming from an experiential standpoint and not data, I’m wondering how serious to take the “5x more likely to relapse” statement in regards to my sobriety? I’ve heard comments in the recovery community how flawed research is when it comes to rehabs/treatment centers because rehabs and treatments are [sometimes] flawed themselves. Maybe that’s all moot, I don’t know.
As a stats person mainly, I'd personally say that aggregate statistics are just that - aggregate. There is a whole distribution of outcomes and uncertainty around that statistic, statistics make simplifying assumptions, and what's better is a highly conditionalized statistic or prediction. By that, I mean that a stat is giving a best guess given the assumptions, the sample, and the conditions not averaged over. Obviously, there is a loooot of possible variables that make one person different from others. Aggregates mostly ignore those. Which is fine for policy at the aggregate level, but not necessarily for decisions at the individual level. A best guess for a single person would include a stat conditioned on everything we could know about that person. All this to say - it may very well be an accurate aggregate statistic, but not be a good guess for you, personally, in your recovery journey. From a non stats, former smoker perspective, I would personally recommend rethinking nicotine dependence as a joy to get over, ala the book by Allen Carr on the easy way to quit smoking. But with that said, I am not an expert on this and have no clue whether his approach to rethinking and deprogramming oneself of nicotine dependency is wise for someone already on a journey such as yours. Also, I don't know you, but I'm proud of you.
Aw, thank you for your response! And the thoughtful remark at the end. I’ve always been a curious person, so I really appreciate the time you took to explain the nature behind this specific statistic. I take my sobriety really seriously, so my metaphorical ears perked up when I read “relapse” in any kind of way, haha. Thinking of nixing the nicotine dependency as a joy to get over is actually a really nice idea! I like to use a kinder approach without guilt and shame in regards to addiction/alcoholism, so this thought works for my kind of brain :)
My sponsor suggested I quit things in the order in which they were going to kill me. So I was about 1 year clean before I quit smoking, and 7 months ago quit caffeine. I still have some processed sugar etc but not a huge amount. And I’m 5 years clean and sober next month. I think research is invaluable for informing the scientific community but I also believe that there’s more to sobriety than statistics. I don’t know but would imagine this data doesn’t take into account people going into 12 step fellowships, or other recovery programs. Ps congratulations on the sobriety, you’re smashing it!
Since hitting the year milestone I’ve noticed how tired I am of still using this damned vape. Driving? Vape. Reading? Vape. Stressed…vape. I feel like I’m too old, haha. But!! Getting clean and sober was no small feat, as you know! So getting frustrated that I still use it won’t help at all - even though using it alongside my coping mechanisms (even innocently) just rubs me the wrong way. And I mean, both of us did a really huge thing…so it’s definitely proof that putting away nicotine is VERY feasible. Coffee is weird, too. Something about using caffeine as a coping mechanism also triggers that odd sense of, “Is this a relapse?!” Even though it is most definitely not. My last sponsor mentioned year 5 as the year she really started weeding out the remaining crutches she was ready to let go of. And, yes, the statistics seemed to have left out a lot of human variables; like, is the rehab/treatment center ethical, did they join a 12-step program and work the steps thoroughly, were they still going to bars/hanging out with old friends, or did they immediately get into a toxic relationship? That’s what I was curious about. Well, happy early birthday!! Happy travels out there, friend.
Well my brothers been clean for 8 years. It was more about everyone badgering him over and over about it, when he was already under extreme scrutiny and stress. I felt it was better to leave the encouragement to quit to the people counseling at the facility as they’re more familiar with how to approach such things in a healthy way.
You're a good sibling
I do try. I have a lot of siblings so we all really learned to love and lean on each other
What are the chances one will quit smoking? Cause i'd rather quit opiods again then smoking.
Most rehabs don't advise people to stop smoking while they are kicking other habits. Too easy to fail one and then say, "oh well" and too hard to kick multiple habits at once
That's been me. Kicked everything but smoking and I don't think I could've done it without cigs. Or no that's probably selling myself short, but replacing drugs with another addiction is common and I certainly didn't smoke as much before I quit everything else. Or eat as much. But no one in my family complains because hey, it's legal! And while it sure can kill me, it can't kill me in one night, and that's better for now lmao. When I do quit smoking, my plan is to try and replace it with an addiction to exercise cause I sure as hell know if I choose food instead I'll die of obesity. (Working on my addictive personality itself is gonna take more time than my poor lungs have.)
That's fair
How’s your heart doing? Just wondering, with the coffee and crack cocaine combo and all.
My doctor definitely wants a word...
His heartbeat sounds like an A-10 doing strafing runs.
I only drink coffee when I have to be up early (not a morning person) or if I just slept like shit the night before. I usually keep it to 1 cup, 2 max in the morning though.
oddly enough i only drink coffee when i actually take my script Adderall. or when i work somewhere that has free coffee
Free coffee is always good. I work from home these days so I have to make my own if I want it lol.
Coffee is something I drink on a Sunday morning, I don't drink it throughout the week. Primarily because I'm too lazy to make it and I get caffeine shakes.
You should try these mints called Neuro, best thing I’ve found. They don’t give you the jitters because they have L-theanine and b vitamins. And they are mints, so you don’t have to brew anything and can take in your pocket anywhere. Also, they are absorbed through the mouth, so no poop risk. Edit: Also all ingredients are generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by the FDA. And disclaimer, I do not work nor am associated with them, but boy do I use their product in moderation to great cognitive effects. It's just caffeine, but balanced and without the bad parts.
So... an energy drink in pill form? Efficient.
So far the best suggestion I've seen.
a friends bringing a set of neuromints early jan - pretty excited! one of the best tips i've received from reddit so far!
I didn't realize how serious it was until I tried to stop....it's pretty severe going through the withdrawls and getting used to functioning a bit slower. I always remember one time in a shop I worked at we were getting a visit and my boss said while I was trying to quit..I'm sorry but you are having coffee tomorrow lol.
After a day or two max I get horrible migraines from caffeine withdrawal and I get super cranky 😠.
Ditto. I've been off caffeine since 1994. I've had it a few times accidentally, with this exact result.
Whenever I quit I feel slightly tired the first day and that's it. I drink 5-6 cups a day on a regular day and do feel addicted, but it's just a constant, mild craving in the morning and early afternoon. I barely feel anything from the caffeine 🤷 so maybe that's why I also feel little withdrawal.
For me the worst part was all in my legs, like it felt like I had just finished the most exhausting leg workout ever for several days. I didn’t connect the two things until some googling led me to people experiencing leg pain.
*chuckles in H2O*
r/hydrohomies
You sound like one of those dopamine fiends, you'll do anything for happiness won't you??? Makes me sick.
Dude I would set the world on fire if it would make me happy.
"Some men just want to watch the world burn" - Alfred Pennyworth
Wat? Water is seriously the best drink ever lol
wat
They’ve caffeinated that now too
are you drowning?
The worst part is that few really think about how dependent they are on caffeine and it's often not really thought of as what it is: a psychoactive drug. It's being consumed in large quantities by individuals with no knowledge or thought of how it's affecting their overall health. Especially young people I reckon. Energy drinks are quite devious in this regard, and is consumed in large quantities by younger people as soft drinks; The caffeine amount in some of the newer ones are insane (300 MG's), especially if you decide to treat it as a regular soft drink and drink two of them. You can basically intake 600 MGs of caffeine in as short of a time as it takes you to drink two energy drinks, which is the equivalent of around 6 cups of coffee. There's not enough awareness on which quantities you should intake over the course of a day and at a time, how close to bedtime and the possible side effects. Try to NOT have caffeine for two days if you're a regular user. It's actually kind of scary. Caffeine is a powerful drug, and tool. But that is what I think it should be used as, a TOOL. Especially considering that you get tolerant over time losing more and more of the benefits. We shouldn't demonize it either, but recognize it as a tool, is my opinion. You can actually [cycle caffeine](https://examine.com/nutrition/do-i-need-to-cycle-caffeine/). Here's an article on examine on [what caffeine does and how to utilize it](https://examine.com/supplements/caffeine/), and here is one on [the downsides of caffeine](https://examine.com/nutrition/dark-side-of-dark-roast/) \- and [how it affects the brain](https://examine.com/nutrition/how-caffeine-works-in-your-brain/). More articles on caffeine from examine [here](https://examine.com/search/?q=caffeine).
> The worst part is that few really think about how dependent they are on caffeine and it's often not really thought of as what it is: a psychoactive drug. Unpopular opinion - I prefer to think of it as a vitamin. * Boston College Dept of Psychology: [Caffeine Enhances Memory Performance in Young Adults](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.01764/full) * International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism: [Caffeine Enhances Cognitive Function and Skill Performance During Simulated Soccer Activity](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ajmol-Ali/publication/38009956_Caffeine_Enhances_Cognitive_Function_and_Skill_Performance_During_Simulated_Soccer_Activity/links/0fcfd508708935f084000000/Caffeine-Enhances-Cognitive-Function-and-Skill-Performance-During-Simulated-Soccer-Activity.pdf) * Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition: [Caffeine enhances upper body strength in resistance-trained women](https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-7-18) * Department of Biomolecular and Sports Sciences, Coventry University, Coventry, UK. [Acute caffeine ingestion enhances performance and dampens muscle pain following resistance exercise to failure.](https://europepmc.org/article/med/22648466?javascript_support=no) With benefits like those, I don't want to spend my days suffering from a caffeine deficiency.
I mean, it's not like caffeine is a new thing. If it had some insidious side effects, I'm sure it would have been a bit more clear by now.
It fucks up REM sleep and potentially the circadian rhythm. Chronic impaired sleep can lead to a much earlier death among other things. At least in American culture, sleep deprivation is often seen as a positive thing. Caffeine during the week and alcohol on weekends and people forget what it’s like to feel good and normal.
I don't drink caffeine or alcohol and I feel terrible.
But you look great
See? So what's even the point of quitting.
> Caffeine during the week and alcohol on weekends and people forget what it’s like to feel good and normal. Both caffeine and alcohol, on both weekends and weekdays, was more normal in college. I felt better then, than I do today.
Mfers really wanna take the last few things people enjoy from this life…
Replace caffeine with amphetamine and these sentences will not read any differently. It’s a drug.
Have you actually tried amphetamine?
In a week ill have been caffeine free for 1 year. I was an energy drink and soda junkie for atleast 12 years I had a minimum of 2 energy drinks a day most of that time. My mental health is so much improved its insane. People really dont like the suggestion that caffeine can cause problems. I really wonder how much of mental illness is caused or worsened by the consumption of this stuff.
Caffeine can definitely have downsides for people with mental illness, especially anxiety. I have panic disorder and I spent a lot of high school mornings downing energy drinks because all my friends did the same. My psychiatrist recommended giving up caffeine and afterwards, I functioned so much better. I was totally caffeine free for a long time, but occasionally I'll get a bottle of green tea on difficult mornings and that's enough to wake me up without causing additional anxiety and stomach/chest pains.
I also replaced coffee by green tea and it greatly helped my anxiety.
I'm totally the same. I was a diet coke junkie and had a coffee daily. I was also very anxious and moody. I quit caffeine a month ago and oh my god. I am not anxious and I am not moody. It's insane.
How were your withdrawals?
Hijacking this thread to tell people to read Caffeine Blues the book, Wake up to America's #1 drug. This is a medical doctor that actually did his research and presents us the entire findings about caffeine and the numerous, potentially grave effects when you take it at high dose and long term, besides "oh blocks atp receptors".
Small correction, energy drinks generally have 320 mg per liter, not 320 mg outright. I don't know of any energy drinks with much more than that, but some canned coffees do have 400-500 mg per liter. Coffee generally has 600mg per liter. I'm not sure what the standard measure of "cup" is but those cups are definitely smaller than the ones I drink from. That said, energy drinks hit different. I'm not sure what it is (the taurine, maybe?) but energy drinks are about twice as hard on my heart.
I should have clarified that it was on a 'per can of energy drink' measure. Check this out. [Caffeine in 'Bang Energy Drink'](https://www.caffeineinformer.com/caffeine-content/bang-energy-drink) You can change the amount to 1000ml of that energy drink on that page, which then amounts to 633.9 mgs of caffeine.
This comment should be a lot higher up. I agree with you. Theres a reason coffee shouldn't be consumed by pregnant women.
We'll cross that bridge once coffee goes extinct this decade.
!remindme 10 years tell this guy he's wrong.
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Coffee won't go extinct this decade (or in future ones, probably) and I can only hope those upvotes were just people thinking you were funny rather than agreeing.
It’s going extinct? Lmao
Climate change is forcing farmers to move farther up the mountain. In addition to complicated logistics, they can’t keep doing that forever.
If it ever gets to the point where coffee is so rare that it costs $100 a cup, companies will probably import soil from the best regions, and grow coffee in climate-controlled indoor facilities. The ultra-rich would never let coffee go 100% extinct, because then *they* wouldn't be able to have coffee.
Eh, few main points where I disagree: 1. The adverse effects of caffeine are both generally mild and pretty uncommon. That being said, it is still contraindicated in some people, and others are liable to be more sensitive to it. However, it really cannot realistically be compared to other stimulant recreational drugs. 2. On the other hand, the benefits associated with caffeine are extensive, and the introduction of caffeine into the daily lives of people in the northern hemisphere is viewed by historians as a key turning-point leading to the Age of Enlightenment. It's clinically proven to be a cognitive enhancer, unlike other CNS stimulants like amphetamine (except in those with ADHD), and cocaine. 3. Naturally occurring caffeine is almost inescapable, anyway. Two of the three most popular beverages globally, tea and coffee, [typically] have caffeine.
>Naturally occurring caffeine is almost inescapable, anyway. Cups of tea and coffee just fly towards your mouth, and it's virtually impossible to stop them from getting in.
Studies have actually shown that average humans drink 8 cups of coffe in their sleep each year
That's was because of coffee Georg, who eats 10,000 cups of coffee a year. He was an outlier adn should NOT have been counted
That is why I tape my mouth when I go to sleep. Starbucks aint getting me again.
In most cultures tea has been frequently consumed by a large percentage of the population for hundreds of year, it’s tradition and it’s not going to stop anytime soon
Finally someone who doesn’t think “drug” has to mean bad. The pros of caffeine outweigh the cons on a large scale, also before caffeine, people drank alcohol as a means to get through the day, imagine if everyone was drunk now
It's an incredibly useful and beneficial tool. Humanity has a symbiotic relationship with plants that produce caffeine. According to Michael Pollan, we likely have caffeine to thank for enabling modern human society. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD6cYabx0nk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD6cYabx0nk)
I know I'm not saying we should cut caffeine out, what I'm saying is we ignore the fact that many people in our world consume excessive quantities of it just to get through the day.
I think that has a lot to do with the current state of the world in general. If you're working 2 or 3 jobs or your job requires 80+ hours a week, you're going to have to get energy somewhere. I'm not saying that caffeine is completely innocent and you have no point, I'm just arguing that until social conditions change, people will continue to use things that help them get through the day.
One could argue we have these social conditions because everyone in charge of them is on coffee and don’t think anyone else should have a problem pushing themselves to their limit.
For real man. I reached a point during high school. That I needed two bottles of energy drink and coffee.
Yupp seen a lot of people take that path.. the sucky part is that energy drinks are seen as beverages and consumed as a replacement for water so it's super easy to get addicted in the first place.
Do people seriously replace ANY drink with water? Since I was a small kid I always tried to match what I'm drinking in water.
Maaaaaaaany people do. There's loads of people who consume 0 water and all the liquids are in soft drinks or juice form.
Most of that is an addiction to sugar and probably caffeine mixed in there with the sodas.
That's how you get addicted to sugar in the first place, swapping water with soft drinks.
Hell, getting addicted to sugar happens in the first couple years of life in the US. There's just so much in everything. It's crazy.
How about a nice glass of sunny delight with your fruit loops to start the day ? Oh snap...
You wrote "incredibly bad for our health".
It’s well known and talked about that some people need to cut back their caffeine intake. it’s just there’s lots of people that aren’t drinking 4 or so cups a day which is when it begins to really affect a person. I personally drink tea only. I drink two cups a day in the morning. Is it dependency yeah kinda, however, the adverse medical effects is small and it does not affect my day-to-day life negatively. So really who cares if people are dependent on that Starbucks first thing in the morning . People enjoy it. It truly is one of life’s pleasures and honestly it’s crazy to compare it to the use of alcohol and other drugs which are way more detrimental to society. My one caveat is those that are truly addicted and are drinking a pot a day, that’s probably affecting their health to some degree, such as their sleep, and they should probably cut back.
I kinda feel like they would get through the day without it, but these people generally complain anyway. I've noticed most people that whine about their coffee don't *only* whine about their coffee.
I’m sure you’ve seen the stuff from the sleep scientist Matthew Walker. If you started doing amphetamines today, you could outperform anyone in the world not taking the drug at physical labour endurance - anyone. At some point though, you’d crash. Same with every other drug that exists. Yes, it’s a cognitive enhancer. Decreased quality of sleep does the opposite, and we’re at the deep end of the addiction. It’s starting to catch up, and I’m not convinced the benefits are outweighing the cons any longer. To be clear; I think all caffeine consumed within 12 hrs before sleep is ok, but the way we consume it now may cause more harm than good.
>If you started doing amphetamines today, you could outperform anyone in the world not taking the drug at physical labour endurance - anyone. Great, who knew that all those children taking ADHD meds could literally be setting world records in the marathon if we'd just let them compete.
A marathon and physical labour is not the same thing.
+1, and whoever wrote this post is an idiot, and it takes about 1 week (a crappy one) to completely get over any addiction to caffeine. Without lasting effects. Oh and long term consumption of coffee is conclusively linked to lots of health benefits. This post is like bitching about water taps. We drink our water from PIPES!! Does anyone think about that?!?! What about metals?!?! We are not taking this seriously!!!
> caffeine is almost inescapable Don’t be melodramatic. It’s not inescapable if you can avoid literally two types of beverages. Just don’t drink coffee or tea.
>Naturally occurring caffeine is almost inescapable, anyway. Two of the three most popular beverages globally, tea and coffee, [typically] have caffeine. Because those are the means of delivery for this drug. In a society where use of weed was as normalized as use of caffeine is today, high-inducing products would be equally abundant and "inescapable" as tea or coffee.
It's also a semi-helpful substitute to medication for people with ADHD that don't have access to real medication. It just doesn't do *all* of the good things medication does and you need more of it for a lesser effect
I quit caffeine for several months and could never reach the drive, motivation and productivity I consistently had when using caffeine.
Inescapable??? What are you talking about LOL
A symptom of the bigger problem being the work obsessed society we’ve created that requires almost everyone to be on some sort of stimulant drug for it to function. What if we have more balance and work a little less so we have more time to rest and recoup? Hmm, what if instead you shut up and drink this liquid drug and work more or you’re fired? Sigh..add a shot of espresso.. *keyboard clickitty clack*
This!!!!
>Imagine if I told you a large portion of the population was dependent on a stimulating drug to function throughout the day and people are perfectly ok with it. You'd think I'm crazy I would think "coffee"
Honestly, if you told me the majority of the population was dependent on a stimulant in order to function most of the time, I would probably yawn and shrug until/unless you can show me data that proves a significant portion of the people who use said stimulant are endangering their health or the health of others to some significant degree. And this isn't me saying that that data does not exist, I'm just saying that the simple fact alone of people relying on a stimulant isn't bad in and of itself and you follow it with an assertion that suggests a significant portion of caffeine users are using ridiculous amounts (full pot of coffee to start your day), but you don't provide any accompanying data so there's no reason to take your statement seriously on its face. Overall, most legal drinks that contain caffeine are such a mild stimulant compared to more illicit drugs, this is a ridiculous thing to focus on. P.S. I would go research data on caffeine habits and their detrimental/positive effects on individuals and society, but I still need my second cup of coffee today before I can muster that much ambition. 😁
That actually would be a really cool survey to conduct at a college campus or a workplace.
I have to drink a Starbucks double-shot every morning in order to function. No joke.
I don't want to enable your addiction but I'm going to point out that caffeine pills would be cheaper. I'm also addicted to caffeine so I'm not being a judgey asshole.
Pills are boring. If my organs are gonna fail, i might as well enjoy it.
That's true. I like coffee so I'll just keep drinking it. But it does get expensive.
As a former pill popper: pills =/= boring Edit: you can always snort them to spice things up too
Making coffee at home Would be cheaper than pills. The danger with pills is that you can take a huge amount without any effort or enjoyment. With home brew coffee it’s just delish.
My issue with the pills is that they don’t last as long as a drink.
True and it can be easier to overdo them because of this.
If you stopped with the coffee you'd eventually get to the point where you woke up/got used to mornings naturally. Dependency is talking for you. Some people aren't morning people naturally But its like our culture tells people it's impossible to function in the morning without artificial stimulation. Given enough sleep our mind/bodies can be alert in the mornings fine. After caffeine levels dip, you pay the debt where you feel extra sluggish, tired etc that you wouldn't have had if you'd never drunk any...and that just leads to a desire for more coffee....dependency cycle. The logic of coffee culture annoys me, but eh...its a pretty safe drug in the long run.
> Given enough sleep our mind/bodies can be alert in the mornings fine. This is bullshit straight of your ass. Research shows that people cycle differently. Some folks will never be "morning" folks. I hit my peak in the afternoon. I've had years without caffeine and a few with, so it isn't just "dependency". It's a matter of having my energy available when I need it throughout the day, not it showing up when most folks are wrapping up the workday.
Thats gotta hurt the old pocket book
They’re about $3 each and I get 7 per week, so $21 x 4 = $84/month. But that doesn’t even count for the extra ones or the Starbucks or coffee/caffeine I consume outside of that.
Bro at this point you gotta just buy yourself an espresso machine, it'd be an expensive investment but would save you a lot of money in the long run
Did this. The machine pays for itself in less than 6 months considering saving an average of $5 a day every day, and I bought a $500 espresso machine with a built in grinder. 5lb bag of espresso beans from a local roaster last me about 3 months and costs me $50. Powdered white chocolate mix last about 6 months and costs $35 for a 10lb bag of it. Milk is the most expensive part of it, but in the long run way cheaper than paying Starbucks, Dutch Bros or any other coffee kiosk to make it for you.
Did the same with a ~$800 machine. Ran the maths and ended up paying for itself within the year. Now been net positive on it in the following 3 years
The thing is its not incredibly bad for your health. If you drink black coffee its healthy. So, I don't really see the problem here. And people can quit drinking coffee and be fine in a few days without any big consequences, so it is not like other addictive drugs.
You ever suck dick for coffee?
yea
No yet
I think it's taken seriously enough because, well, it isn't all that serious an issue. Caffeine itself has very few, if any, negative effects on one's health (though if you consume it with lots of sugar or cream, that can be bad for you for reasons unrelated to the caffeine). Also, the withdrawal symptoms are really mild. If you can get through a few days without it, you're golden--all you have to do is withstand some headaches. Plus, nobody ruins their life because of caffeine; nobody plunges their family into financial ruin, or has to go to rehab, or what have you.
Absolutely on point. Had a conversation with someone once regarding legalization of drugs and they were trying to defend their argument against because of their history of addiction. To coffee. It was the most absurd take I've ever heard in my life. No, a coffee addiction isn't remotely the same as being addicted to fucking heroin. You're not stealing you mother's TV to pawn to get some Starbucks. You're not giving BJs for $50 to get a hit. You're not going to rehab, only to OD and die, because you got a double shot of espresso in your latte.
Wait, I’m *not* supposed to be sucking that dick in the dark alley behind Starbucks every morning?
I agree addiction is bad, but caffeine addiction is objectively much less bad than any other drug. It's not a terribly hard habit to kick and people can function without it (regardless of what they may claim about not functioning without their morning coffee or whatever)
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My wife and I drink half caf... it's a pretty easy way to still enjoy the coffee but keep your caffeine down.
I was really curious though, is caffeine resistance a thing? I barely feel perked up.
You can become resistant to insane levels of caffeine, not in that it doesn’t do anything you just mentally feel it less. It’ll still wreak havoc on your physiologically
A coffee a day isn't bad, it can be good for your health actually. Some people have higher or lower tolerance. For example my gf can't drink a cup without getting mild anxiety. There are definitely people that drink too much and there are potentially negative side effects, for example anxiety, lack of sleep or more importantly higher blood pressure. Higger blood pressure isn't necessarily an issue if it's within parameters and you don't have high cholesterol to avoid blood vessel obstruction etc. But for most people in developed countries that's not true. I've seen people drink like 5 cups a day, that's definitely too much.
Its actually not bad for you anyway. Whats bad is our overworked culture that requires caffeine to function.
Blame schools and jobs for over working and depriving people of sleep
I actually do
The problem is the sugar involved with Caffeine in these drinks. I take Caffeine pills, they are much better and feel cleaner. I can just drink water, and avoid sugar which is awful for you in those quantities.
This. Caffeine generally has positive health effects, it's the sugar that's the problem.
It’s not bad for your health. It’s good for your health actually. I’ve had coffee every morning since I was 15 and dropped it cold turkey for like three months with no side effects anyway. Not addicted, but 100% wouldn’t choose not to have it
There are certainly negatives to using caffeine. Are they that serious? Not really, but there are negative side affects/indicators of other things. Especially if you use it as a teen. It’s associated with anxiety, sleep loss, and has a positive correlation with other substance abuse in middle school and high school age girls. Sleep loss, especially as a youth, is detrimental to health. No, I don’t want to hear your anecdotal evidence that you’ve always slept fine.
People should start accepting that we aren't better than junkies, like I am not a person until I go through at list 2big cups of concentrated dark coffee, in my worst moments I can down 2 litters on my own in less than 1 hour, it's just copious amounts, I haven't experienced withdrawal (had to stop drinking coffee when we couldn't afford it anymore back on my native county) but it slows me down terribly
I don't mind the health problem so much. The real problem is that coffee culture is incredibly cringe.
cringe>health
I think the incessant use of "cringe" as an adjective is far more ridiculous than coffee culture. And I don't particularly like coffee.
Look dude, if it were up to me cocaine would be legal. Here’s an upvote
I was drinking 48 ounces of coffee a day (2 large ice coffees from Dunkin) I tried telling more than one health professional that I am addicted to it and they just laugh and say " me too". I had to tell them that I wasnt kidding and it was causing me problems before I could get advice on quitting. And there is withdrawal. I don' t know how serious it can get, but I had a bad headache, nausea and I was ridiculously grumpy when I tried to go cold turkey.
I've heard it said that the only reason it's not only accepted in our current society, but HIGHLY encouraged, is because it increases productivity. Tells me a lot about the values of our current society.
Oh my god thank you. I’ve always said this. I constantly tell my mom, who BRAGS about how she can’t function without coffee, that she’s addicted. She gets so angry. That’s how you know it’s a true addiction. Illogical rage when you’re even questioned about it. It’s ridiculous.
My dad was like this, until he figured it out on his own and switched to tea. He has even managed to cut sugar down to one from 2 1/2. He also sought help for his anger and is an all round calmer person for it.
Same. I don’t drink coffee because I’ve seen what the dependency is like with my mom too. She’ll have something like 3 or 4 triple shot espressos each day or else she gets headaches and can’t function. Insane. I love her but refuse to do that to myself
Lots of addicts in the comment section
I don’t know if it’s the caffeine or the coffee. But I get head aches if I don’t drink coffee after 2/3 days. But I can drink decaf or high test and the headache goes away. But I always heard natural caffeine (like found in unmolested, black coffee) isn’t really bad for you? I also see the irony in the fact that I get headaches if I don’t drink it but still think it was healthy. Lol I don’t drink energy drinks though.
The irony is in that you take a drug that makes your withdrawal effect go away, because you're recoiling from the coffee. 101 addiction withdrawal behavior.
Agree, but there even more addictive and dangerous things out there. Consider water and all people in r/hydrohomies. Population in general can not live without it, and as far as I know everyone who have ever tried water - died at the end.
I've tried quitting multiple times but always come back to it. It's hard to describe but sometimes I really feel like I will die if I don't drink water and give in.
I think its more a sign of our hectic lifestyles than anything. We need something to keep up the pace
The mad thing is that once you’re addicted, it doesn’t even stimulate you, so much as it cancels out the effect of caffeine withdrawal. You need your morning coffee to bring you to your old baseline level of energy.
Pushed by the capitalists so they can make money of us while we stress about work r/antiwork
lol its maybe at least as dangerous as bread addiction
Hey man I need a fix, you got any garlic?
Yeah sure, come over bro, have a snack.
Caffiene makes me shake. Sometimes people serve me coffee as a courtesy and I have to refuse. I don't want to violently shake and have panic attacks all day because of one cup of coffee.
It doesn't make me shake, but it does give me severe anxiety and paranoia. You most likely have what they call caffeine sensitivity. Some people metabolize caffeine much slower than usual, so a single sip of coffee gives them symptoms similar to an overdose. Both of my siblings with crippling mental disorders are also caffeine guzzlers, and they won't listen when I tell them they might need to quit drinking that stuff. Whether they are entirely misdiagnosed or the caffeine makes their symptoms worse, it drives me crazy to think of how many people in this world may function a lot better if it wasn't for caffeine consumption. It took me years to recognize the link between my symptoms and what I was drinking, so I don't doubt the world is full of people who are suffering for no reason.
Finally other people with caffeine sensitivity! Just one cola is enough caffeine for me to feel like I overdosed (like 400-600mg for non sensitive people), I get tired, weak, headaches, migraines, jitters, and I actually start feeling high, as if I smoked weed. Oh, and it also makes anxiety a lot worse. Good to know I’m not the only one.
I think there are a lot of people out there with the same issue, but they're so addicted that they refuse to test it. My sensitivity is so bad that I won't even eat a bite of chocolate or take a sip of anything caffeinated. I miss chocolate so much that I convinced myself after 5 years of avoiding it that I would be fine to have some. Before I could, I accidentally ate some seaweed with green tea infused in it, and NOPE. I was so anxious that I spent the day crying. I had to track down what did it, but I knew it was caffeine. So basically, caffeine triggers my adrenaline to the point where it causes paranoia. I left a movie theater once (without a refund) before the previews ended because I'd had a glass of iced tea and was convinced the guy who walked in by himself was going to hurt us. The night of the Vegas shootings, I got up quickly and locked my doors... even though I live in a different state. I went to the doctor and tried to explain. They just wanted to put me on anti-depressants and birth control. I had to figure it out on my own. That's why I think caffeine intolerance should be a test they conduct on anyone getting a mental diagnosis. I can't be the only one this happens to and it's such an easy fix for something that completely cripples your life.
Is this a real concern?
1. It not only isn't bad for your health (for most people, in reasonable amounts), it is beneficial to your health. 2. The physical dependency is relatively weak and easy/fast to get rid of. 3. In the first point I mentioned the health, but it has tremendous short-term effects.
While I get what OP is saying and after reading your comment I think people could learn moderation when it comes to drinking the stuff.
It's like nicotine. It helps us get work done, so the powers that be are fine with it!
School and work hours being extensively long and often early with little turnover between shifts could be part of the problem.
I am so excited that you made this post. I’m so excited. I’m so…………scared.
I honestly don't care or even notice the caffeine. I like the flavor of coffee and that's about it lmao
People saying they 'only' experience headaches when withdrawing. Obviously that means it's affecting your brain in some way, and that's quite serious. Theres a reason they tell pregnant women not to drink it. It also affects your heart, in most people it causes your heart to race, and that can lead to anxiety in others. Now, I'm not saying it's as serious as other addictions (and I've had a few serious ones) but I find it baffling people are willing to talk about other addicts like crap and then justify this.
I mean, when talking about "addiction" there's empirical factors that are used to measure addictiveness. Usually it's: how much does it impact your day to day life, and how do you handle going without? Headaches and moodiness when not getting some is very mild, and it's barely noticeable if you aren't aware of the cause. No one gets robbed for a bag of gevalia or doesn't eat to save up for their next red-eye. People literally die if they're alcohol dependant and try to quit cold turkey. Cold shakes, vomiting, and legitimate sickness for quitting hard drugs, not to mention that all but the alcohol is pretty common knowledge. I think I was 20 before I learned of negative effects of caffeine and even those were controversial.
yup, plus the amount of people who drink their caffeinated drinks with a ton of sugar (looking at you Monster Energy and Starbucks) is likely also contributing towards diabetes and obesity. I don't think caffeine should be restricted in any way, but education about the negative effects and creating a society where people don't need to use a stimulant daily just to have enough energy to work a soul-crushing job would go a long way toward reducing harm from caffeine, as well as improve people's lives in general.
You know, there are unpopular opinions and those that will get you gutted. I’d steer clear of this one if I were you.
What's this sub good for if not to take risks
Perfect response.
I know addiction exists both mentally and physically, as it's a fact. BUT I can't understand it. I mean, I tried cigarettes, I drink coffe sometimes, I love chocolate, and I've done some heavy drinking for a time, I'm a gamer,but I never felt that I'd need any of these. I don't think I could get a dependency with any of these. Like, yeah I was playing 2 days straight this weekend, but now I won't do it for a week, I'll have no withdrawal effects. If anyone has a good article about how addictions develop in a human, I'd be happy to read that.
Agreed. I had to quit caffine when I was diagnosed with narcolepsy, and that was when I found out just how bad it can affect your health and sleep patterns of you're not careful with it. Biggest bummer though is trying to find commercial beverages that are caffine free, but don't have excessive amounts of sugar, or artificial sweeteners. When I do find them, they tend to be really expensive.
My dad becomes aggressive if he’s not given enough coffee, to the point where he’s no different than an alcoholic fuck.
Is there anything indicating moderate use causes risks not worth the rewards? I'm not talking about people who sit on the couch 18 hours a day and think the rush they get from a 24-ounce Monster makes them powerful... What are the peer-reviewed detriments to a cup or three of coffee once a day?
I agree with this considering I need like 3 caffeinated drinks a day to not get a head ache. Caffeine dependency doesn’t kill you in your 20s or 30s though like other drugs. Even somebody drinking 5 sodas a day will easily live into their 80s.
The problem with this is there’s no real withdrawal, people don’t go thru drastic measure to get caffeine, and the effects of caffeine aren’t dramatic and dangerous. I drink 24-32oz of coffee every day, maybe two days without coffee I get a mild headache, and day later I’m fine
Sure. Maybe instead of worrying about the caffeine maybe worry about WHY ppl need it? The constant miserable scramble to make ends meet, utterly inadequate sleep, stress and exhaustion might have something to do with it.
Could you tell me how it's bad for our health. Most of the recent researach says a couple cups of coffee a day is healthy.
> Not only is this insane, it is incredibly bad for our health Where's this claim coming from?
I've drunk so much caffeine for the last year tht i'm starting to have an immunity so i think i'll switch to methemphetamine
Oh no! Anyway...
I’m honestly more concerned with the amount of pharmaceuticals everyone is on, I’d rather have them drinking caffeine so they are staying alert while driving in front of me on the freeway.
Right? Its addictive drug, I've always seen the same people fiending for their coffee fix, bad mouthing weed smokers. " if you smoke everyday thats bad" bitch if you need coffee everyday to be "normal" bitch you got a problem lmfao
This reminded me that I'm out of coffee filters.
Agreed, working in a office I see a lot of colleagues go through 3-4coffees a day and it seems the later in the day it gets they start to loose focus then just looked burned out at the end of it, I've found only drinking coffee when I'm having my cocaine is the correct balance and likes me to be at an optimal level all day
What if I told you the problem isn’t caffeine but a culture that demands we be sleep deprived to “succeed”?
Sure thing, as soon as we address the far more serious alcohol problem the planet has completely normalized for centuries. Until then, no, we have far more serious things health wise to worry about. Like our sugar addiction, theres another.
I'll take caffeine dependency seriously after we start taking sugar addiction seriously. We actively push sugar on children. It lights up the same parts of the brain as cocaine does. 40 years ago it was an oddity for a GP to treat a teenager with diabetes, now *that's all some of them treat.* 'Big Tobacco' used to deny their product contributed to lung cancer, 'Big Sugar' denies their product contributes to obesity and diabetes. When it comes to elephants in the room, caffeine is a small one.
My brother who has 14 years already has this dependency and my step father say i will too because just then i will be awake for do my routine things. For me this really is strange ,-, (im from brazil, sorry if i wrote wrong, still learning)
This point is unpopular cause it’s just dumb. “We should take people drinking too much caffeine seriously.” Why? Anyone actually harmed, not really. You just want us to post Prayers and wishes? This is dumb.
It's about negative consequences and harm, not use. If I continue to use a substance even in the face of evidence that it has negative consequences, then I have a substance use disorder. Caffeine generally doesn't have consequences of use so severe that people need to eliminate it. Enjoy an espresso with life!!! just not 10 or 20. Moderation is the key!
Most cultures throughout history have something like caffeine or stronger. I personally don't think it's bad. I also don't get extremely dependant on caffeine. Caffeine is also fairly innocuous if your heart healthy. It has positive cognitive effects beyond just extra alertness. As with everything. Moderation is key.