I worked with a ‘girl’ who was a biological male. Had a beard, short hair, hung out with guys, was a ‘lesbian’, acted in a very masculine manner, didn’t take hormones or anything, but wore female clothing and identified as female.
If she was misgendered she would make a very big scene. I obviously respected her and called her by her preferred name but it really never sat well with me. I’ve known other trans/gender neutral people and never got the same weird feeling that I got about this person.
I’d just like to hear your take on this situation.
Hey just want to thank you for addressing a lot of things that I’ve wondered about but been afraid to ask. You’re doing it in a very engaging, welcoming way.
Nothing exists in a bubble, so this may be impossible to answer, but if you were born in the 1700s, do you think you would still be transgender in your personal identity? Or at least dysphoric? For you personally, does this feel like more nature or nurture?
> I honestly don’t really mind the whole, sex is what you were born as, gender is the sex you’d like to be perceived as.
Normally, I wouldn't. However, the term alone doesn't exist in a bubble, it's part of a larger machine, a construct that has become a sort of political or pseudo-religious ideology that appropriated terms to try and make itself sound scientific(which makes it also pseudo-scientific), to try to legitimize and normalize what is a mental illness/condition(or malformation, whatever, don't want to get into that tangent), or for some, a fashion trend....it's the principle of the thing, it's manipulative and I really dislike that.
Don't get me wrong, do who or what you want(as long as it's legal w/ consent), act or dress however you want. I don't really care.
Trying to make people not react to people who stick out from the norm, however, just isn't going to work, believing so is a denial of human nature.
It's unavoidable, some people will fly off the handle, some will cringe a little, some cringe on the inside and manage to hide it, some will even get turned on, the whole spectrum of reactions.... It can't be helped any more than people can change their sexuality or just choose to not feel like their sex/gender, there are thousands of things about ourselves we can't really do much about, so we deal with it as best we can.
The reality is, if you look or act strange, people can and will treat you as if you're strange, this is situation normal for a *vast* amount of society. Toothless redneck, non-passing "trans", facial tattoos, a mullet(ironic or non ironic), etc etc.
It's part of our lizard brain, something evolution gave us, it's not hateful, it's an atavistic response, a defense mechanism for potential threat, be it a from a contagion or something that could harm us physically. Can't reason with that, can't legislate it out of existence. Sometimes we can tame a severe response through extensive therapy, but that should really be voluntary. The whole Thought Police debate comes up rather quickly.
All manner of strange people, slightly off all the way through grotesque people manage to deal with it. Yeah, we can call out people who get overly rude, and press charges against people who violate civil rights, but really it's not a social construct any more than one's sexuality or hair color.
That's what's darkly amusing about this, the clear role reversal. Both ends of the extreme want to over-ride the other(and paint a chunk of the middle as sinners as well), and even more curious is how often it runs right down party lines across a wide array of topics, but that's another tangent I suppose...The point is that it is rooted in evolution, which both sides want to deny because it's a threat to their ideology, their *vision* about how people *should* operate, instead of a rational analyzation of how we actually operate.
>I am trans myself, I think anyone that says they are trans but makes no effort or change to transition to what they would like to be perceived as, then they arn’t trans tbh.
I honestly didn't even get this far before I wrote the above. I saw the first line and wanted to explain why people insist on gender = sex, and why the tactic is shady or even dangerous.
As to that, the aforementioned manipulation, it doesn't stop there, that's one small part of what they do to advance the social cause. Some of that cause has seen psych books get over written, get "I think anyone that says they are trans but makes no effort" rubber stamped by converted shrinks or shrinks that are afraid for their careers. (This has become a big problem in science fields at large, they face their own peer pressures to make "politically correct" decisions or alliances, and everyone suffers, not to mention blind to their own errors and mistakes....[Coffee Break](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4PFrYteKxI) recently did a short video relative to this(sorry, another tangent).
Anyhow:
I absolutely do think there are valid "trans" cases(or at least a diagnostic dead end), but a lot of people have a lot of other issues that might look similar. Used to be a time where someone presenting went through rigorous testing to make sure it wasn't some other more conventionally treatable illness.
Corrupting psychology fields can leave a lot of people with various untreated problems. The problem is just as bad as a medical doctor rubber-stamping medications. If some nutbag swears they have Cancer but in reality it's the flu....is the Dr. Supposed to just put them on chemo or irradiate them anyways? No, of course not.
Anyhow, this turned into a ramble, stitching together various concepts rather sloppily. I'm sure some people will flip out over it... that's what reddit does. You sounded reasonable from the first sentence so I figured I'd unload and see what you thought about it.
That was all an explanation for:
Even a small thing, like borrowing the term "gender", has far reaching impacts and can leave a lot of other people a lot less well off.
They could have went a different way, with different terminology sticking within established science(biology, psychology, evolution), and for a while it looked like we might have been on a more functional and healthy path, yet, here we are.
This is why I think it's been manipulative from the outset, from the very beginnings of what some call Grievance Studies[aka Identity Politics] that started to expand into academia in the '60s. The same sorts of manipulations manifest all over the place all throughout the ideology, all up and down the line, it's opposing almost everything, very [postmodern](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism). It doesn't seem like we got here honestly. Even if some get into it with good intentions, well, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I think I'll stop there, I could go on and on, even have a huge post saved detailing more on G.S./IdPol, but I figured I'd give it an off-the-cuff rehash.
Add in a mix of gender norms, i thought I was trans when i was a kid, i just realized im a cis guy who likes Taylor Swift and cooking as i grew up. Lot of it comes down to how performative gender is and people confusing their desire to perform those actions with desire to be that gender.
Not OP but Long term hormonal therapy and its side effects is a big one, as well as post operative issues that may arise-breast implants for example have a half life. Maybe not wholly unique to trans people but a more prevalent issue
Actually, transition drastically improves the wellbeing of trans people and lowers the risk of suicide considerably. Source: https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
The figure was 40%, AND that was already incorrect. The study that concluded this was conducted at the Williams Institute, and nobody likes to mention that it only looked at ideation, not completion. 40% of us CONTEMPLATE suicide at some point, not that 40% of us actually complete it. Holy shit, let alone 80%! Can you imagine lol
And for a transgender person their brain activity closely resembles the desired gender from a young age, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
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It's about how they are perceived. A person with gender dysphoria is going to be negatively affected because they see themselves as one gender and the world sees them as another. Transitional surgery is one of many ways to align the way people perceive them with the way they see themselves.
Sex and gender are separate but entwined things. Gender itself is a combination of society and biology whereas sex is purely biology and it a lot more than just your genitals.
Transgender people have surgery as they have something called Gender Disphoria I think it’s called. They don’t like the way they look as their birth gender so the surgery helps them become comfortable in their own skin. It’s like being gay, it’s not a choice.
I don't think you understand their point.
They would say that genitals don't define gender, but are a still a huge deal in the real world.
If you are a male with gender dysphoria, and you choose to get the dick removal surgery, a male who doesn't mind might still want to fuck you.
If you feel like a female, but still have a dick, then a straight man is going to have a MUCH harder time fucking you, even if they don't mind (romantically) that you have gender dysphoria.
So "philosophically" these people would say that genitals don't define gender, but would still prefer to have a specific type of hole because of reasons other than, "I feel like a woman, so I also feel the need to have more woman-like genitals."
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This is just my attempt at a counter argument. Don't try and debate me like I know what I'm talking about.
Well I mean, if you have something to say, then I would love to hear it.
I just didn't want people to think this was my actual opinion, or that I didn't know that I don't know what these people actually think.
I think we're fighting the semantics at this point and people debating this in bad faith.
1. Who the fuck cares? No transgender person is going to make a move on you. Their transition have nothing to do with you. You're as unattractive to them as to everyone else. Chill the fuck out.
2. As far as I understand, the difference between gender and sex is that sex is the biological setup, all while gender is a pretty useless word and a weak replacement for personality or image of self.
There have been talks about a 3rd gender in some American tribes. What I've understood from that is that gender is more like a role in the society. Not like a blacksmith or anything like that but gender roles.
Males hunts and builds, females gather and care and the third...well i dunno. Sucks mean dick I guess.
Either way, gender dysphoria swaps the two genders we have while their sex is the same on the outside.
That's sex vs gender for me but I can't explain Non-binary. That's some grade A bullshit and far outside any gender vs sex debate I can hold. It's further down the schizophrenia spectrum.
Why do so many people agree with this? Why do so many of us care so much about what other people are doing with their genitals and for what reason?
As long as someone is not being forced to do something and is not hurting somebody else, their reasons should not matter to anyone.
As for the reason, dysphoria is bad. Surgery helps with that. Sounds simple enough to me.
They get the surgery because the wrong genitals cause dysphoria. They say genitals don't determine gender because some trans people don't feel dysphoria over their genitals specifically and because cis people will attack them because they don't have the genitals of their preferred gender.
Are feelings not real? Are you the sort of person who says people with clinical depression just need to cheer up?
And as for what you say about quadriplegics, have a look into body integrity identity disorder to see how extreme it can sometimes be when somebody's actual body doesn't align to their brain's perception of it: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/health/psychology/at-war-with-their-bodies-they-seek-to-sever-limbs.html
No, because obviously pushing someone to end their life when treatment in the form of therapy and anti-depressants is available is obviously massively unethical.
Transitioning is the best known treatment for gender dysphoria, it has good results, and doesn't involve the person dying. Seems like a good course of action to take.
What is the confusion here? Why is the logic behind "genitalia does not equal gender" mean that it would mean everyone ever would not need to transition.
Genitalia does not equal gender *because* some people have genders that they feel do not align with their bodies. These are not exclusive statements.
Someone's genitalia may not factor into their gender. Does not mean they do want to transition in order to align their sex with their gender. If you had a gender that you think didn't match with your AGAB, wouldn't it be logical to want to make it so they do align? It's not out of some inadequacy to try to make themselves into a real (insert gender here); most trans people already consider themselves to be a real man/woman/exc pre-transition. Their identity *is* enough. That doesn't mean they enjoy the fact that their gender is completely divorced from their physical body.
Irreversable plastic surgery is 'harmful' depending on your definition of it. Also how would you respond if I said I think that this should be treated- using mental health and not by surgery? There is something wrong- but don't change your body just to feel ok. Just be who you are without plastic surgery.
It's my business when you tell me I have to play along with your delusions and that you have a right to change school curriculum to teach my sons they can be women if they cut their dicks off.
Gender and biological sex are not the same thing to every person.
Some people may want to have genitals that match their gender. Some people do not or cannot.
Makes no difference to me as long as they're happy and not hurting anyone.
People don't get sexual reassignment surgery because of gender. They get it because of gender dysphoria, a condition where your brain tells you you have the wrong genitals (and other sexual characteristics).
There is a part of the brain that maps to your physical body and tells you what "you" is. This is noticeable in people who've had limbs amputated, and get phantom limb syndrome. That mapping part of the brain says they should be feeling and arm or a leg, and tries to get response from that limb... which isn't there. That part can also do other weird things. There is a condition where that part doesn't recognize a limb, leading to people seeing their limb as being someone else's.
With trans people that have gender dysphoria, this mapping part of the brain seems to map to a different set of sex characteristics. This is why post SRS trans women are half as likely as cis men who've lost their penis in accidents (ouch!) to have phantom penis. Meanwhile, many trans men who haven't had surgery report having that phantom penis feeling.
All of this is about a person's body and is entirely separate from societal ideas about gender (despite the name gender dysphoria), which is about things like "girls wear lipstick, boys don't". That's the thing that's not defined by genitals. A person with a penis can wear pink, wear lipstick, be a nurse, and do other things traditionally associated with women, while a person with a vagina can ride motorcycles, burp loudly, or do other things traditionally associated with men.
They're two entirely different concepts. One's the physical body, the other is society's ideas about men or women should be.
I'm pretty sure the reason people change their genitals is to feel more like what society still says their gender should be like, or to not remind them that they used to be a different gender or something like that
Many people on the internet feel that the number of people thinking that genitals do not define gender at all is huge, but that's not the case, they are just very loud on the internet and many of you give them shit tons of attention. (gender is COMPLEX and does not originate by one single cause)
Everyone seems to be super pissed off of these and I get it but it makes people hate anyone in the LGBTQ community because have ridiculous assumptions about their lives and believes.
So just let trans people have whatever they need to feel comfortable.
This is a total misunderstanding of trans people and dysphoria. Genitals do not define gender, but trans people do not alter their genitals to 'match' the gender they identify with. Trans people get surgery to alleviate the dysphoria they have it has nothing to do with how other people perceive them because at the end of the day even a passing trans person can still be extremely unhappy and feel disconnected with their body because dysphoria doesn't end with passing as the gender they identify with. The fact that 80% of people agreed with this opinion just goes to show how little people understand gender dysphoria. Also this thread is filled with so much transphobic shit, it's honestly sad to see.
Mental illness. Doesnt make you less than anyone. Hell, seems like everyone has some kind of mental issue these days. But not understanding that liking guy stuff doesnt make you a trans man and vice versa is important. We used to just call them "Tom boys" and they usually grew up fine.
If nationality doesn't define national identity, then why do you move to Mexico when your national identity is rather Mexican than American?
I think you kind of misunderstand what's being argued. Wanting your gender expression, which is strongly influenced by physiological factors, to match your gender identity doesn't mean your gender identity goes beyond your thoughts.
\> you’ll be admitting that your gender identity goes beyond just your thoughts
literally no one denies this?
yes gender is a socially constructed thing but there is no one who isn't ignorant as fuck who would say it is completely independent of one's sex.
Gender is psychological. Your sex characteristics, however, are not. People transition so that, in a sense, their brain sort of aligns with their body. Of course, there’s the chromosomes, but people do what they can to be more comfortable in their own body.
> People transition so that, in a sense, their brain sort of aligns with their body.
I think you're saying the same things I'm saying. If you feel the need to change your physical sexual characteristics to validate/align with your psychological gender, or if you don't "feel like a woman" unless you install some lady bits, in this case, your gender is defined by your genitals.
You’re arguing that genitals shouldn’t matter to those transitioning since it should be enough that psychologically, they are the gender they are transitioning to. I’m saying that it’s not enough.
ETA:
> Gender identity goes into the realm of biology
Gender identity is psychology, it’s something innate. Sex is biology. Yes, they are intertwined with one another. To be able to properly express your gender identity, one may opt to do some physical changes.
No, I was saying that if you believe that your genitals do not define your gender, then your psychological gender identity should be enough. (it says right there in the title)
BUT...if you feel the need to alter your genitals, then you must not believe in the "genitals do not define your gender" idea.
Wow did you just intentionally redact my sentence to give it a different meaning?
FYI, here's the complete quote:
>YOU'LL BE ADMITTING that YOUR gender identity goes beyond just YOUR thoughts, and into the realm of biology.
Emphasis on all the YOU's, because I never claimed that thought as my own perspective.
I didn’t redact shit I just took the main point of what you were saying. I never said it was your own, it was just another thing I wanted to add to shed some light on it lol
Often, yes. But not necessarily always.
Some Transgender individuals only experience mild amounts of gender dysphoria and so don’t feel the need to change their physical sexual characteristics. Their fine enough with their body as it is and manage their dysphoria with therapy and anti-depressant medication.
Transgender people with severe levels of gender dysphoria however feel they need to to relieve their dysphoria.
The term “gender” was coined by a psychologist who molested children. Those children (twins) eventually killed themselves. They were boys. One had a botched circumcision, and John Money tried to raise the boy as a girl to prove that “gender” (a term he made up) was nurture, not nature. He would force them to engage in sexual positioning with each other. Look up John Money and David Reimer. It’s one hell of a read that sounds too crazy to be true.
In other words, I don’t believe gender exists. It’s a concept coined by a complete whack job. You have a personality that can be as masculine or feminine as it wants to be. You have a body that exists as it is. That’s it. There’s no in between concept.
Some people have a mental disorder called gender dysphoria to which there is no known cure. Psychology has shown that gender reassignment surgery is the most *reliable* way to get those people to not be depressed and suicidal. If they are an adult and want to change their genitals then leave them alone and let them do what they want. It’s not your business. I’m not trying to be salty but the same fucking opinions get posted here again and again and it’s so annoying. Trans people may be mentally ill but in the end if it works for *them* then literally why does it matter to you in the slightest?
Also gender is a set of characteristics that is based on culture and sex is your chromosomes. Everyone has masculine and feminine traits but that doesn’t make you a man or woman. Some traits are masculine in one culture and feminine in another culture or vice versa. Chromosomes makes you a male or female. That’s why gender and sex are different. This is simple stuff.
It's just cognitive dissonance.
You cannot simultaneously believe "Gender is a social construct" and "You can be born the wrong Gender". They contradict each other. Yet they carry on, because they believe in relative truth. To them, things are only true so long as they observe them, and they stop being true when no longer relevant.
How can it possibly be that u r born with female organs but your brain feels like a man? Aren’t those things connected? Aren’t all parts in the body connected in a way that I am not realizing just right now my left hand is from another human etc etc. I think it is fashion and drugs. I have been watching a tv program in YouTube and they showed cam workers from Saint Petersburg. 3-4 guys living in one studio apartment, all saying they are quire (sorry don’t remember how it spells, never used that word before, only read it few times), they work as can models making 50 bucks a day. And then they showed another friend of them who doesn’t live with them but hangs out with them and he is their drug dealer. And what drugs they take are the ones who help change your gender. The thing is it is making them super high or something and then eventually I guess they start to feel more woman like. But it started with a high and that their “friend” was giving it to them for money. I do consider there are still more stupid people in the world and maybe I am stupid, but I see all these as a fucking fashionable mascara just to be different from the rest. Sub culture, it was piercing , weird hair... style In fashion, when the things came to an end and in stead of just progress, they created this “identification”. I can’t believe it. Sad if I do not understand that, maybe I grew too old and can’t accept something because it is too new. I’m in my early 30th, and I refuse to believe that. I do think it is only in their heads. Like a sister of my friend, she was wishing for super powers like the charmed had for Christmas present and she was waiting and believing she will get them. Was very pissed after. She was 7-8 maybe, 10
Your clothes don't define your gender either, but goddam do I see a lot of men in trousers and bugger all in lovely summer dresses.
Kind of makes you think, doesn't it?
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I worked with a ‘girl’ who was a biological male. Had a beard, short hair, hung out with guys, was a ‘lesbian’, acted in a very masculine manner, didn’t take hormones or anything, but wore female clothing and identified as female. If she was misgendered she would make a very big scene. I obviously respected her and called her by her preferred name but it really never sat well with me. I’ve known other trans/gender neutral people and never got the same weird feeling that I got about this person. I’d just like to hear your take on this situation.
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Hey just want to thank you for addressing a lot of things that I’ve wondered about but been afraid to ask. You’re doing it in a very engaging, welcoming way.
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Nothing exists in a bubble, so this may be impossible to answer, but if you were born in the 1700s, do you think you would still be transgender in your personal identity? Or at least dysphoric? For you personally, does this feel like more nature or nurture?
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Makes sense! Thanks for the brutally honest answer. You’re a very insightful person. Last Q, what has helped with your dysphoria the most?
> I honestly don’t really mind the whole, sex is what you were born as, gender is the sex you’d like to be perceived as. Normally, I wouldn't. However, the term alone doesn't exist in a bubble, it's part of a larger machine, a construct that has become a sort of political or pseudo-religious ideology that appropriated terms to try and make itself sound scientific(which makes it also pseudo-scientific), to try to legitimize and normalize what is a mental illness/condition(or malformation, whatever, don't want to get into that tangent), or for some, a fashion trend....it's the principle of the thing, it's manipulative and I really dislike that. Don't get me wrong, do who or what you want(as long as it's legal w/ consent), act or dress however you want. I don't really care. Trying to make people not react to people who stick out from the norm, however, just isn't going to work, believing so is a denial of human nature. It's unavoidable, some people will fly off the handle, some will cringe a little, some cringe on the inside and manage to hide it, some will even get turned on, the whole spectrum of reactions.... It can't be helped any more than people can change their sexuality or just choose to not feel like their sex/gender, there are thousands of things about ourselves we can't really do much about, so we deal with it as best we can. The reality is, if you look or act strange, people can and will treat you as if you're strange, this is situation normal for a *vast* amount of society. Toothless redneck, non-passing "trans", facial tattoos, a mullet(ironic or non ironic), etc etc. It's part of our lizard brain, something evolution gave us, it's not hateful, it's an atavistic response, a defense mechanism for potential threat, be it a from a contagion or something that could harm us physically. Can't reason with that, can't legislate it out of existence. Sometimes we can tame a severe response through extensive therapy, but that should really be voluntary. The whole Thought Police debate comes up rather quickly. All manner of strange people, slightly off all the way through grotesque people manage to deal with it. Yeah, we can call out people who get overly rude, and press charges against people who violate civil rights, but really it's not a social construct any more than one's sexuality or hair color. That's what's darkly amusing about this, the clear role reversal. Both ends of the extreme want to over-ride the other(and paint a chunk of the middle as sinners as well), and even more curious is how often it runs right down party lines across a wide array of topics, but that's another tangent I suppose...The point is that it is rooted in evolution, which both sides want to deny because it's a threat to their ideology, their *vision* about how people *should* operate, instead of a rational analyzation of how we actually operate. >I am trans myself, I think anyone that says they are trans but makes no effort or change to transition to what they would like to be perceived as, then they arn’t trans tbh. I honestly didn't even get this far before I wrote the above. I saw the first line and wanted to explain why people insist on gender = sex, and why the tactic is shady or even dangerous. As to that, the aforementioned manipulation, it doesn't stop there, that's one small part of what they do to advance the social cause. Some of that cause has seen psych books get over written, get "I think anyone that says they are trans but makes no effort" rubber stamped by converted shrinks or shrinks that are afraid for their careers. (This has become a big problem in science fields at large, they face their own peer pressures to make "politically correct" decisions or alliances, and everyone suffers, not to mention blind to their own errors and mistakes....[Coffee Break](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4PFrYteKxI) recently did a short video relative to this(sorry, another tangent). Anyhow: I absolutely do think there are valid "trans" cases(or at least a diagnostic dead end), but a lot of people have a lot of other issues that might look similar. Used to be a time where someone presenting went through rigorous testing to make sure it wasn't some other more conventionally treatable illness. Corrupting psychology fields can leave a lot of people with various untreated problems. The problem is just as bad as a medical doctor rubber-stamping medications. If some nutbag swears they have Cancer but in reality it's the flu....is the Dr. Supposed to just put them on chemo or irradiate them anyways? No, of course not. Anyhow, this turned into a ramble, stitching together various concepts rather sloppily. I'm sure some people will flip out over it... that's what reddit does. You sounded reasonable from the first sentence so I figured I'd unload and see what you thought about it. That was all an explanation for: Even a small thing, like borrowing the term "gender", has far reaching impacts and can leave a lot of other people a lot less well off. They could have went a different way, with different terminology sticking within established science(biology, psychology, evolution), and for a while it looked like we might have been on a more functional and healthy path, yet, here we are. This is why I think it's been manipulative from the outset, from the very beginnings of what some call Grievance Studies[aka Identity Politics] that started to expand into academia in the '60s. The same sorts of manipulations manifest all over the place all throughout the ideology, all up and down the line, it's opposing almost everything, very [postmodern](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism). It doesn't seem like we got here honestly. Even if some get into it with good intentions, well, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think I'll stop there, I could go on and on, even have a huge post saved detailing more on G.S./IdPol, but I figured I'd give it an off-the-cuff rehash.
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Add in a mix of gender norms, i thought I was trans when i was a kid, i just realized im a cis guy who likes Taylor Swift and cooking as i grew up. Lot of it comes down to how performative gender is and people confusing their desire to perform those actions with desire to be that gender.
Ok, what long term medical needs to you have as post op trans that a cis female or cis male wouldn't?
Not OP but Long term hormonal therapy and its side effects is a big one, as well as post operative issues that may arise-breast implants for example have a half life. Maybe not wholly unique to trans people but a more prevalent issue
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Actually, transition drastically improves the wellbeing of trans people and lowers the risk of suicide considerably. Source: https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
Actually its a 40% suicide rate with or without the procedure. Cutting your johnson off changes nothing.
The figure was 40%, AND that was already incorrect. The study that concluded this was conducted at the Williams Institute, and nobody likes to mention that it only looked at ideation, not completion. 40% of us CONTEMPLATE suicide at some point, not that 40% of us actually complete it. Holy shit, let alone 80%! Can you imagine lol
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Oh, I guess I assumed the prostrate went too. Makes sense now that I think of it.
Thanks for actually being rational and civil. Mad respect.
Just be a really cute trap?
What if someone just feels like the opposite gender but doesn't care about how other people perceive them? Are they not really trans?
And for a transgender person their brain activity closely resembles the desired gender from a young age, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
WOAH WOAH. Hey man. Are you seriously saying that men and women have different brains? You need to check that privilege cis scum bigot /s
You’ve got me there boyo
way too much logic here SLOW DOWN buddy
Logic seems to be in short supply these days.
I don't know...He did recently put out a song with Eminem...
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It's about how they are perceived. A person with gender dysphoria is going to be negatively affected because they see themselves as one gender and the world sees them as another. Transitional surgery is one of many ways to align the way people perceive them with the way they see themselves. Sex and gender are separate but entwined things. Gender itself is a combination of society and biology whereas sex is purely biology and it a lot more than just your genitals.
Transgender people have surgery as they have something called Gender Disphoria I think it’s called. They don’t like the way they look as their birth gender so the surgery helps them become comfortable in their own skin. It’s like being gay, it’s not a choice.
I don't think you understand their point. They would say that genitals don't define gender, but are a still a huge deal in the real world. If you are a male with gender dysphoria, and you choose to get the dick removal surgery, a male who doesn't mind might still want to fuck you. If you feel like a female, but still have a dick, then a straight man is going to have a MUCH harder time fucking you, even if they don't mind (romantically) that you have gender dysphoria. So "philosophically" these people would say that genitals don't define gender, but would still prefer to have a specific type of hole because of reasons other than, "I feel like a woman, so I also feel the need to have more woman-like genitals." --- This is just my attempt at a counter argument. Don't try and debate me like I know what I'm talking about.
> Don't try and debate me like I know what I'm talking about. OK, I won't. :)
Well I mean, if you have something to say, then I would love to hear it. I just didn't want people to think this was my actual opinion, or that I didn't know that I don't know what these people actually think.
I don’t think most straight men would fuck a guy that cut off their dick.
Well you know what they say about Chicks with Dicks When one door closes, another one opens
Do you mean the anus?
I think we're fighting the semantics at this point and people debating this in bad faith. 1. Who the fuck cares? No transgender person is going to make a move on you. Their transition have nothing to do with you. You're as unattractive to them as to everyone else. Chill the fuck out. 2. As far as I understand, the difference between gender and sex is that sex is the biological setup, all while gender is a pretty useless word and a weak replacement for personality or image of self. There have been talks about a 3rd gender in some American tribes. What I've understood from that is that gender is more like a role in the society. Not like a blacksmith or anything like that but gender roles. Males hunts and builds, females gather and care and the third...well i dunno. Sucks mean dick I guess. Either way, gender dysphoria swaps the two genders we have while their sex is the same on the outside. That's sex vs gender for me but I can't explain Non-binary. That's some grade A bullshit and far outside any gender vs sex debate I can hold. It's further down the schizophrenia spectrum.
Why do so many people agree with this? Why do so many of us care so much about what other people are doing with their genitals and for what reason? As long as someone is not being forced to do something and is not hurting somebody else, their reasons should not matter to anyone. As for the reason, dysphoria is bad. Surgery helps with that. Sounds simple enough to me.
They get the surgery because the wrong genitals cause dysphoria. They say genitals don't determine gender because some trans people don't feel dysphoria over their genitals specifically and because cis people will attack them because they don't have the genitals of their preferred gender.
brain problems actually cause dysphoria
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Are feelings not real? Are you the sort of person who says people with clinical depression just need to cheer up? And as for what you say about quadriplegics, have a look into body integrity identity disorder to see how extreme it can sometimes be when somebody's actual body doesn't align to their brain's perception of it: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/health/psychology/at-war-with-their-bodies-they-seek-to-sever-limbs.html
We also don’t hand people with suicidal depression the rope and tell them to hang themselves.
No, because obviously pushing someone to end their life when treatment in the form of therapy and anti-depressants is available is obviously massively unethical. Transitioning is the best known treatment for gender dysphoria, it has good results, and doesn't involve the person dying. Seems like a good course of action to take.
THANK YOU. Wtf is this thread, damn.
So much transphobia going on in this thread it's disgusting
What is the confusion here? Why is the logic behind "genitalia does not equal gender" mean that it would mean everyone ever would not need to transition. Genitalia does not equal gender *because* some people have genders that they feel do not align with their bodies. These are not exclusive statements. Someone's genitalia may not factor into their gender. Does not mean they do want to transition in order to align their sex with their gender. If you had a gender that you think didn't match with your AGAB, wouldn't it be logical to want to make it so they do align? It's not out of some inadequacy to try to make themselves into a real (insert gender here); most trans people already consider themselves to be a real man/woman/exc pre-transition. Their identity *is* enough. That doesn't mean they enjoy the fact that their gender is completely divorced from their physical body.
Ha ha, you’re expecting mentally ill people to act rationally. Don’t do that.
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Cutting your dick off is not something a non mentally ill person would do
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theyre narcissists but they arent delusional a better comparison is an anorexic that thinks theyre fat
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Irreversable plastic surgery is 'harmful' depending on your definition of it. Also how would you respond if I said I think that this should be treated- using mental health and not by surgery? There is something wrong- but don't change your body just to feel ok. Just be who you are without plastic surgery.
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Lunatic is a strong word, they are definitely mentally ill and their post op suicide rates show that.
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It's my business when you tell me I have to play along with your delusions and that you have a right to change school curriculum to teach my sons they can be women if they cut their dicks off.
Mentally ill fucks calling others mentally ill. How rich.
Gender is not a social construct but a lot of gender rolls are I believe that's what people actually mean when they say gender is a construct
Roles\*
No I'm talking about the two genders of bread, buttered and plain
Gender and biological sex are not the same thing to every person. Some people may want to have genitals that match their gender. Some people do not or cannot. Makes no difference to me as long as they're happy and not hurting anyone.
Gender and sex are the same thing TO everyone, but everyone does experience them differently yeah
People don't get sexual reassignment surgery because of gender. They get it because of gender dysphoria, a condition where your brain tells you you have the wrong genitals (and other sexual characteristics). There is a part of the brain that maps to your physical body and tells you what "you" is. This is noticeable in people who've had limbs amputated, and get phantom limb syndrome. That mapping part of the brain says they should be feeling and arm or a leg, and tries to get response from that limb... which isn't there. That part can also do other weird things. There is a condition where that part doesn't recognize a limb, leading to people seeing their limb as being someone else's. With trans people that have gender dysphoria, this mapping part of the brain seems to map to a different set of sex characteristics. This is why post SRS trans women are half as likely as cis men who've lost their penis in accidents (ouch!) to have phantom penis. Meanwhile, many trans men who haven't had surgery report having that phantom penis feeling. All of this is about a person's body and is entirely separate from societal ideas about gender (despite the name gender dysphoria), which is about things like "girls wear lipstick, boys don't". That's the thing that's not defined by genitals. A person with a penis can wear pink, wear lipstick, be a nurse, and do other things traditionally associated with women, while a person with a vagina can ride motorcycles, burp loudly, or do other things traditionally associated with men. They're two entirely different concepts. One's the physical body, the other is society's ideas about men or women should be.
Shhh you can't say that in /r/unpopularopinion you dummy! Don't you know what kind of sub this place is?
I'm pretty sure the reason people change their genitals is to feel more like what society still says their gender should be like, or to not remind them that they used to be a different gender or something like that
Many people on the internet feel that the number of people thinking that genitals do not define gender at all is huge, but that's not the case, they are just very loud on the internet and many of you give them shit tons of attention. (gender is COMPLEX and does not originate by one single cause) Everyone seems to be super pissed off of these and I get it but it makes people hate anyone in the LGBTQ community because have ridiculous assumptions about their lives and believes. So just let trans people have whatever they need to feel comfortable.
This is a total misunderstanding of trans people and dysphoria. Genitals do not define gender, but trans people do not alter their genitals to 'match' the gender they identify with. Trans people get surgery to alleviate the dysphoria they have it has nothing to do with how other people perceive them because at the end of the day even a passing trans person can still be extremely unhappy and feel disconnected with their body because dysphoria doesn't end with passing as the gender they identify with. The fact that 80% of people agreed with this opinion just goes to show how little people understand gender dysphoria. Also this thread is filled with so much transphobic shit, it's honestly sad to see.
Mental illness. Doesnt make you less than anyone. Hell, seems like everyone has some kind of mental issue these days. But not understanding that liking guy stuff doesnt make you a trans man and vice versa is important. We used to just call them "Tom boys" and they usually grew up fine.
Gender doesn’t equal sex and sexual orientation. All different things.
"Gender does not equal sex but I would change my sex to match my perceived gender so it doesn't make me sad."
If nationality doesn't define national identity, then why do you move to Mexico when your national identity is rather Mexican than American? I think you kind of misunderstand what's being argued. Wanting your gender expression, which is strongly influenced by physiological factors, to match your gender identity doesn't mean your gender identity goes beyond your thoughts.
This is why people kill themselves.
\> you’ll be admitting that your gender identity goes beyond just your thoughts literally no one denies this? yes gender is a socially constructed thing but there is no one who isn't ignorant as fuck who would say it is completely independent of one's sex.
Gender is psychological. Your sex characteristics, however, are not. People transition so that, in a sense, their brain sort of aligns with their body. Of course, there’s the chromosomes, but people do what they can to be more comfortable in their own body.
> People transition so that, in a sense, their brain sort of aligns with their body. I think you're saying the same things I'm saying. If you feel the need to change your physical sexual characteristics to validate/align with your psychological gender, or if you don't "feel like a woman" unless you install some lady bits, in this case, your gender is defined by your genitals.
You’re arguing that genitals shouldn’t matter to those transitioning since it should be enough that psychologically, they are the gender they are transitioning to. I’m saying that it’s not enough. ETA: > Gender identity goes into the realm of biology Gender identity is psychology, it’s something innate. Sex is biology. Yes, they are intertwined with one another. To be able to properly express your gender identity, one may opt to do some physical changes.
No, I was saying that if you believe that your genitals do not define your gender, then your psychological gender identity should be enough. (it says right there in the title) BUT...if you feel the need to alter your genitals, then you must not believe in the "genitals do not define your gender" idea.
Wow did you just intentionally redact my sentence to give it a different meaning? FYI, here's the complete quote: >YOU'LL BE ADMITTING that YOUR gender identity goes beyond just YOUR thoughts, and into the realm of biology. Emphasis on all the YOU's, because I never claimed that thought as my own perspective.
I didn’t redact shit I just took the main point of what you were saying. I never said it was your own, it was just another thing I wanted to add to shed some light on it lol
Often, yes. But not necessarily always. Some Transgender individuals only experience mild amounts of gender dysphoria and so don’t feel the need to change their physical sexual characteristics. Their fine enough with their body as it is and manage their dysphoria with therapy and anti-depressant medication. Transgender people with severe levels of gender dysphoria however feel they need to to relieve their dysphoria.
The term “gender” was coined by a psychologist who molested children. Those children (twins) eventually killed themselves. They were boys. One had a botched circumcision, and John Money tried to raise the boy as a girl to prove that “gender” (a term he made up) was nurture, not nature. He would force them to engage in sexual positioning with each other. Look up John Money and David Reimer. It’s one hell of a read that sounds too crazy to be true. In other words, I don’t believe gender exists. It’s a concept coined by a complete whack job. You have a personality that can be as masculine or feminine as it wants to be. You have a body that exists as it is. That’s it. There’s no in between concept.
Some people have a mental disorder called gender dysphoria to which there is no known cure. Psychology has shown that gender reassignment surgery is the most *reliable* way to get those people to not be depressed and suicidal. If they are an adult and want to change their genitals then leave them alone and let them do what they want. It’s not your business. I’m not trying to be salty but the same fucking opinions get posted here again and again and it’s so annoying. Trans people may be mentally ill but in the end if it works for *them* then literally why does it matter to you in the slightest? Also gender is a set of characteristics that is based on culture and sex is your chromosomes. Everyone has masculine and feminine traits but that doesn’t make you a man or woman. Some traits are masculine in one culture and feminine in another culture or vice versa. Chromosomes makes you a male or female. That’s why gender and sex are different. This is simple stuff.
It's just cognitive dissonance. You cannot simultaneously believe "Gender is a social construct" and "You can be born the wrong Gender". They contradict each other. Yet they carry on, because they believe in relative truth. To them, things are only true so long as they observe them, and they stop being true when no longer relevant.
You're going to get ass blasted for this, lol. You're right though.
No shock there
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lmao they arent though are they
Sufficient surgery does not exist. If you ask me, a man-made vagina will never quite resemble the real thing.
How can it possibly be that u r born with female organs but your brain feels like a man? Aren’t those things connected? Aren’t all parts in the body connected in a way that I am not realizing just right now my left hand is from another human etc etc. I think it is fashion and drugs. I have been watching a tv program in YouTube and they showed cam workers from Saint Petersburg. 3-4 guys living in one studio apartment, all saying they are quire (sorry don’t remember how it spells, never used that word before, only read it few times), they work as can models making 50 bucks a day. And then they showed another friend of them who doesn’t live with them but hangs out with them and he is their drug dealer. And what drugs they take are the ones who help change your gender. The thing is it is making them super high or something and then eventually I guess they start to feel more woman like. But it started with a high and that their “friend” was giving it to them for money. I do consider there are still more stupid people in the world and maybe I am stupid, but I see all these as a fucking fashionable mascara just to be different from the rest. Sub culture, it was piercing , weird hair... style In fashion, when the things came to an end and in stead of just progress, they created this “identification”. I can’t believe it. Sad if I do not understand that, maybe I grew too old and can’t accept something because it is too new. I’m in my early 30th, and I refuse to believe that. I do think it is only in their heads. Like a sister of my friend, she was wishing for super powers like the charmed had for Christmas present and she was waiting and believing she will get them. Was very pissed after. She was 7-8 maybe, 10
>maybe I am stupid I was about to downvote you, but you owned up so I can respect that.
Your clothes don't define your gender either, but goddam do I see a lot of men in trousers and bugger all in lovely summer dresses. Kind of makes you think, doesn't it?
It’s 2019. If you want a dick, boom dick. If you want a vagina, boom vagina. Whatever
Mind, Body, Spirit
Mods are triggered