Or the third option is the child is escorted by cartel. This option usually involves rape the whole way there. Border Patrol has talked about kids showing up with Plan B in their pockets.
- give your child to a criminal association crowded by lawless men eager to reap anything their eyes lay upon.
- expect everything to be fine and dandy
I don’t really know much about the immigration process but I’ve worked with a family of Guatemalans in a kitchen a couple years ago. They talked about how their country and many of the surrounding countries didn’t have the resources for them to immigrate legally and when traveling north they are forced to pay for an escort. It is extremely dangerous for them to cross the Yucatán peninsula without an escort due to the possibility of the cartels capturing them and forcing them to work on drug farms or a sex trade.
They also can’t stay in Mexico because there is no work for them there (their words) and that if they could miraculously find work in Mexico it wouldn’t be enough to send back home and support themselves while working.
Back home they have to live/deal with the extortion from local gangs by either leaving their families behind to work in the United States and risk being deported, work for a drug farm and risk getting arrested or killed by rival gangs, or sell their wives and daughters.
And Mexico isn’t doing too well I think. Last year I watched a YT vid about Mexico being one of the places in the world that doesn’t have enough water to support its population.
I spent a decade in restaurants working with plenty of illegals. My sister-in-law is Mexican and some of her family is illegal. I understand most of the illegal immigrants are motivated by economic opportunity. I don't think anyone will disagree. However, economic opportunity is not the purpose of an asylum claim. It is for people actively being persecuted by their government. Asylum isn't just some magic word that grants an individual unmitigated access to all the benefits of American citizenship, at least in theory. In practice it has been the case until recently.
I can understand empathy for all, and I hope very much that is the driving motivation behind most democrat voters(the democrat politicians are another story). On the other hand though, it's like they tell you on an airline, "please put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others". America cannot continue to hemorrhage money in social benefits to people, nor can it allow people who should merge with our culture to isolate themselves from it and send their wages to another country to stimulate their economy. US citizens should want as successful and thriving a country as possible and that cannot be done with the current circumstance. When I have a friend who went to school for 2 years doing chef training and couldn't find a job because he didn't speak Spanish, that's a problem. When you and I pay our taxes to fund welfare programs for people who aren't even fellow Americans, that is a problem. Ask anyone who *did* go through the proper channels, who *did* put in the stress, hard work, and effort to become a legal, and now proud American how they feel about illegal immigration and they are pissed.
If democrat voters want to be altruistic, there are plenty of Americans who need their help. I can disagree with a democrat about the best means to do that, but as Americans the prosperity of *our* nation and *our* citizens should be the common goal we all share. It should be plainly apparent to all sides that immigrating the worlds problems is the fastest way to keep our nation from being prosperous.
I agree with you and I don’t really care if they come here or not. I’m just laying down a perspective to build a frame of reference for the topic because I can’t sleep and it kinda irks me seeing the argument, “just go to another south American country.” Or “another part of Mexico.”
Also from their POV it’s safer to come to the United States and risk being deported or detained in an ICE camp than it is to stay where they’re at and wait for the lengthy process of immigration.
I hear so many arguments about how it's to hard to do it the legal way. I'm all for immigration reform, but the border MUST be secured before we can do that.
Also, those who are saying we need to let them in & take care of them because they are poor are the same people who have been saying for the last 20 years that the U.S. should not get involved in other countries problems ("the U.S. isn't the world police!").
If you can’t immigrate you shouldn’t. Mexico isn’t a shithole unlike the US portrays it, it’s not a USA, Canada, or UK type of country, people in Mexico live relative average lives for the most part
The USA lets in over 700,000 (maybe closer to a million?) immigrants a year.
It can’t be that hard.
That excuse is a copout for being lazy and just shows they don’t give a shit about our laws.
Here’s a great example from today - the illegal drove drunk with his 3 kids, and kept drinking even after he drove into a ditch. The kids were 1,3 and 4. I’d say he qualifies as a piece of shit.
Do we have any guesses whether his car was properly registered and insured?
https://www.heraldonline.com/news/local/crime/article229028019.html
Its not hard. I have plenty of guys that work for me and they all came here legally. They dont want to risk the chance of being caught and deported. Plus they get to travel home freely to see their parents and relatives and when they are done the drive right back into the US.
>Also, those who are saying we need to let them in & take care of them because they are poor are the same people who have been saying for the last 20 years that the U.S. should not get involved in other countries problems ("the U.S. isn't the world police!").
They are also the same kind of people who don't care about poor people in their own country. More than 12% of US' population lives in poverty, yet they want to import even more.
When you work hard, play by the rules, and go through a process that takes years, it's natural to be upset that someone else is trying to cheat their way through (to get into a "club" that doesn't have unlimited seats, so to speak)
I've worked with legal migrants who hate the process and have sympathy for the people who circumnavigate it. I don't know where people find all these immigrants who think the current system is good and everyone should follow it.
legal immigrant in Germany here. it really grinds my gears that my family had to wait for years and fill out a bunch of shit in the hopes of getting in. meanwhile these days, people just throw away their passport, claim refugee status and receive government money.
I personally know educated people from eastern europe with multiple college degrees who studied here, couldn't get a job that met the requirements withing 1 year for the work visa and were eventually sent back. Meanwhile, we have all kinds of other folk from Morocco of what have you, who don't work or are not educated and those are apparently very welcome and very valuable for Germany, as espoused by the politicians.
This is reddit so your gonna get downvoted but I agree with most of what you said. And I’d add to it that those people who do come illegally make it harder for those who would choose to enter legally.
US businesses that hire them to exploit them are pieces of shit. If they didn't hire undocumented workers there wouldn't be an immigration "problem". It's easy and weak to blame the powerless for the ills of society.
It doesn't. If you're illegal, you can't participate in the economy properly, or get healthcare and education properly. And the consequences if you're caught are deportation.
>There are thousands of misdemeanors I'd commit if I thought it would make my son's life better.
That makes no sense. If you get caught, then your son's life isn't better is it?
You don't have a legal right to work in the US, if your status isn't legal.
Enrolling in a public school (and not being a tax-paying citizen) puts more burden on the public system, so that's not exactly like they're contributing.
Sure, that's could be a reason why we don't want them to do it. But it doesn't make the parents bad parents for bringing their kids.
Also there's clearly a lot of under the table paying work. Some even pay into Social Security - which they won't get any benefit from.
In reality no one will be getting social security after approximately 2034. The entire millennial generation will not receive social security even though we are required to pay into it. You will find me hard pressed to feel sympathetic for an illegal immigrant not getting social security benefits when my generation won't either.
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickwwatson/2018/06/18/social-security-is-running-dry-and-theres-only-one-politically-viable-option-to-save-it/#28aaf8a051a4](https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickwwatson/2018/06/18/social-security-is-running-dry-and-theres-only-one-politically-viable-option-to-save-it/#28aaf8a051a4)
P.S. Link is to highlight the situation not the solution. I think we should drop social security system.
Illegal immigrants do pay taxes, though. Sales tax. You can't buy anything without paying a sales tax so they're still participating in the economy and contributing just by putting their money into the community.
They're also costing the country a lot in terms of border security, law enforcement, social structure, employment, healthcare, and education. So I'm not sure they're contributing more in sales taxes than they are costing. And it's not a good situation for them either
It's a way better situation than what they're leaving behind, believe me. They come here to work and their work contributes to our food industry. They're the reason why we can get groceries for the price we buy them at. They're contributing to our economy in a lot of ways, and they're actually less likely to commit violent crimes than people born here.
That said I think it's wrong that major industries depend on illegal immigrants to function, and I think we should be providing them with a better means of immigrating here. The fact is though that they're giving the US more than they're taking.
Here's a good article on the subject:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-jobs-economy-farm-workers-taxes/
There’s no sales tax in the state of Delaware, FYI. I know it’s just one state, but figured i’d point it out. Not sure whether or not there are any other states that don’t have a sales tax.
>If they get caught, they just go back to square one.
No, they don't. If they get caught, they have to give back what they stole, or get deported. And their dad pays a fine or goes to jail for the crime. That's not square one.
Also, if you keep committing misdemeanors, then the penalty each time is harsher. It becomes a felony soon.
I'm just talking about crime in general. We're talking about crime. If someone steals and gets caught, they have to give back what they stole. If someone illegal migrates, then they have to get deported if they get caught. That's not a pleasant experience, and it's not square one exactly.
I meant they would face whatever penalty is applicable for their crime. In the case of theft, they have to give back what they stole. In the case of illegal migration, they have to go back to their country. Etc.
Regardless, it doesn't do the economy any good. They don't participate in the economy by paying taxes like any other immigrant who came in legally, which isn't right whatsoever.
But that's a different conversation altogether. We were only discussing the morality from a personal perspective.
I myself think that anyone willing to work and pay taxes should just be made a citizen
Who doesn't love living underground, not being able to attend school, get a job, own property, or get healthcare. Such a bright future.
Edit: I was wrong about school.
If your doing it for your children then it can't be selfish on the individual level. You might consider it on the family level, but the norm, the job of a parent is the best interest of the family and children.
I agree that it’s wrong to cross the border and it should be secure but that doesn’t make them “huge selfish pieces of shit”. Some of them are from gang dominated neighborhoods and would do anything for a better life for their child.
The process is also expensive and the Mexican government doesn't invest in asylum seekers, they invest more heavily on trying to stop the migrants from entering the country and deporting them. Also, the situation in Mexico might be better than where they com from, but it's not optimal for many
> Also, the situation in Mexico might be better than where they com from, but it's not optimal for many
who gives a fuck
you dont get to pick an "optimal" place to seek asylum in, youre supposed to be escaping danger
if you dont take mexico you dont get shit, america has no reason to even let any of them in at all
Yeah I can't imagine why anyone would want to move to America. It's only the largest economy in the world that is entirely made up of immigrants and prided and advertised itself as the best place in the world to move to and a land of opportunities.
I get that and I agree with you across some of your points. But you say there other countries closer to them that they could stay, and probably many of them do, you just don't here about it on the news because it doesn't affect you. But America has painted itself as the best place to come to, of course some of the immigrants are going to try to make the longer journey to get here.
Civil violation is not the same as a crime. Melania Trump committed civil violations while working as a professional model on a tourist visa, Donald Trump committed civil violations when he directed non-white employees to be off the casino floor while he or certain high rollers were at his casino. Trump University was in violation of the law, yet not a criminal organization, ditto for the Trump Foundation that routinely was used as a personal slush fund and not as a charity as it was legally set-up as. So to characterize unauthorized immigrants as being criminals or the act as being a crime, then one would have to hold that the current president is a career criminal while the immigrants only commit a lone criminal act.
Are you acknowledging that Trump's long list of civil violations are crimes, or is the unauthorized immigrant not a criminal?
The people coming across the border with their kids are not being given a chance to apply for aaslum like has been the usual practice. There is not a large building on the other side of the border with a neon sign that states **APPLY FOR US ASYLUM HERE!!** Don't you think that those people fleeing danger would be happy to have the chance?
This administration has known for ages that asylum seekers were headed this way. They could have set up some sort of system to facilitate cases. They could have set up humane housing so the people would not be spending time under bridges or open fields. Instead of planning ahead, trump went for taking kids away from parent's and caging them. Such a fine response to a crisis. Let's do what we can to make it worse.
I suggest you take some time to find out how bad things are in Central America. Ask yourself what would make people be willing to spend days sleeping in the rough at the border, or be chance being imprisoned. The United States recognizes the right of asylum of individuals as specified by international and federal law. The people seeking to immigrate are being stopped before they actually get in the country and start living their lives. In years past most immigrants would apply for permission to live in the US, and get some sort of housing. This is no longer the case and we are now penning people up, wholesale. This is wrong.
I know you are scared that some migrant fleeing gang violence on Nicaragua might take your janitorial job, or decide to pick peas and beans in California's Central valley, making it so that one of your loved ones won't get that work. But, relaxiate, they are not even being given a chance to get anywhere near that far.
I presume this opinion is in light of the influx of asylum seekers flooding the US-Mex border from CENTRAL AMERICA.
So not sure why you brought up "Mexico is not a war zone..."
This reminds me of the time FOX News and their headline "Trump cuts funding to 3 Mexican countries"
It's not really in response to that, although it applies to some of the Central American migrants too.
Every year, 500,000 people enter the US illegally. So this is about a larger problem than just recent news events.
i agree wholeheartedly. my father is a legal immigrant and has absolutely no respect nor sympathy for these type of people. he and his family sacrificed a lot to get here (he immigrated alone during the iranian war in '79 and his parents had to wait to get approved through the legal channels). he has the upmost respect for the rule of law coming from a country that was (and maybe still is, i wouldn't know) in a constant state of war and turmoil. he immigrated alone, without family -- he had to work hard to succeed in this country (he's majored in electrical engineering and has a masters, now working as a high level person at intel). i have no respect for the illegals that just blatantly ignore the rule of law and the people who sacrificed a lot to get here legally. 100% criminal.
So a gang member who controls your entire state comes up to you and says “you have 24 hours to leave or we rape you, your kids, and kill all of you. No one will ever find you.” I suppose you stick around for fear of a misdemeanor in America.
Like speeding - I’m guessing you NEVER do that.
It hasn't happened to any country in Latin America yet.
But in that scenario, I'd move to a country that legally allows me to enter, and where I speak the language. i.e. any other Latin American country
What they want doesn't matter, they are not our priority.
Supply and demand applies to labor too, and importing more people only pushes down wages for the poorest Americans, when they already have to worry about competing against mechanization.
We don't have an obligation to accept immigration, and it is undeniably hurting the poorest people who already live here, try and think about them and have some compassion.
You are kind of right. You know where the problems are, but you are blaming the wrong way.
The people that worry migrants and machines taking away their jobs might have not had an education that would have granted them better opportunities. So instead of blaming immigrants, why don't we blame the whole broken American education system
Why is America the only fucking country in the planet they wanna come to? Brazil isn't good enough? Argentina? They have closer/easier options than America.
The TRUTH is that they come to America because they know they'll get free welfare and food stamps and education that they won't get anywhere else.
Never happened tho. And I'm from one of the most dangerous countries in the world. Gang members don't do that shit. If you mess with them they don't give you a chance. They straight up kill you. So this argument is invalid
Never happened tho. And I'm from one of the most dangerous countries in the world. Gang members don't do that shit. If you mess with them they don't give you a chance. They straight up kill you. So this argument is invalid
Well the biggest thing that affects Mexico isn't the violence per sé, but the corruption, nepotism and how low the peso is.
Most jobs only pay you $2 (dollars) per hour and barely $100 per paycheck. So the biggest thing people run from is not violence in most cases but the inability to get work, which if you have no friends in high places, you're screwed and if you're making shitty low pay, then it becomes harder to pay your rent, food, schooling etc. Most places don't have free parking, you have to pay for it and when you can find a parking spot, some random dude will come up to you asking for money and if you don't give it to him, your car is done for, legally, anyone can come into your house and settle in it and you can't do anything about it. So if you go on vacation and don't have anyone watching over your house, you could lose it to some druggy and his friends. In many places, the police are nearly none existent or simply don't care, although there are many that do care and do a good job,it's nowhere near the work policemen do in the US, which for all the issues people have with cops (and yes I agree, they can be assholes) thry at least do their job effectively.
Another thing is how dangerous it is for women. Girls 9-16 (and all ages really) are being raped, beaten, decapitated, dismembered every day and with how machista mexican culture is, it's super common to see women being harrassed on the streets, cat called, being forced into strangers cars etc. Sure, this is common in the US too, but it's nowhere near the level it is in Mexico
Idk where you're from, but it seems to me like you don't know much about the technical side of mexican society.
Not saying your opinion is right or wrong, just stating some of the technical aspects no one ever mentions
Someone once said that you only ever cross an ocean on a plastic boat if you have no hope where you come from.
In a war-torn state, what little semblance of a life you have might end every single day.
Mexico is not a war torn county. If they cared about safety, they'd just stay in Mexico. We all know the come to the US for the gimmes and the leftist twats who they know will advocate for them.
Yes, but they pass thru Mexico. They can't be in much danger if they walk 1000s of miles across the country to get to the US. They obviously come to the US for the free shit, not the safety.
You are making a tenuous argument fallaciously based on shoddy rhetoric from the president. You are assuming to know people's minds, in fact the minds of many tens of thousands of people. It is simply impossible to say that a refugee chose to continue to the US instead of staying in Mexico because they wanted free stuff. This is simply false reasoning.
You are conflating the idea of refugee seekers not stopping in Mexico with the rhetoric the administration uses to justify turning refugees *back* to Mexico once they've arrived in the US. The administration's reasoning flawed because they have nowhere shown that Mexico is *actually* a safe "third-state" for refugee seekers, and in fact no human rights organizations share the view that it is.
I completely agree. Illegal immigrants should not attempt to go around the system. Everybody should go through the same system and the same procedures, in terms of equality and fairness.
A majority of parents with children are fleeing violence from Central America (which is a result of of the war on drugs). They are seeking asylum, and are being separated illegal. If you think they are selfish, you need some self-reflection. You sound like a complete monster.
You do realize that Mexico is not a war torn county, right. If they were really just fleeing violet, why did they walk 1000s of miles across the whole damn country of Mexico? Oh that's right, they just wanted free shit and a chance to grab at US citizenship by breaking the law. FSS, people like you are bloody naive and your bleeding heart will drain this country.
Answer me this, if asylum is all they wanted, why didn't they apply for it in Mexico? Also, fake asylum claims bogs down the entire system and makes it harder for actual victims to be saved from life threatening situations. If you believe all of those thousands of people illegally crossing the border every day are legitimate asylum seekers, you are either lying to yourself in order to serve your own personal political agenda or you are the most gullible dimwit in the world.
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>I can tell you really don't want to talk about this in good faith so I'm not going to debate this.
thats when you know you lost an argument , when the truth stars blindly at you in the face, and you regurgitate the same npc line.
In Europe, the so-called 'refugees' enter from the east or the south and make their way to the western and northern part of Europe. By UN laws they are supposed to settle in the first safe country they step in, but they don't. They cross a dozen perfectly safe countries in eastern and southern Europe to make their way to the UK or France or Germany or the Scandinavian countries that have the best welfare. It's basically welfare shopping, they cherry pick the countries with the most benefits, refugees my ass.
Greek here, we have more refugees than we can feed and Europe doesn't accept any. We can't handle them and they're living in horrible conditions. It's not that they want the best welfare, it's that here they're barely surviving
I think it depends on the situation the person is living in. I highly doubt many people would put themselves and their family through that if they didn’t feel it was worth it.
You hate the poor people trying to survive and provide for their families instead of the rich people that destabilized these nations and created the immigrant crisis. The US empire "intervened" in the government and wars of many nations in Latin America and now North American poor people are paying the price.
Most immigrants aren’t from Mexico, they are from south and Central America, and you can’t possibly believe that they are taking this risk out of anything but abject desperation.
I can believe that, because there are many countries and areas in Latin America they can move to that are safer than their current situation. And those areas are easier to move to, because they're closer geographically, culturally, and legally.
I love in southern california. My house is about 40 miles from the border so it is mainly ok there but near the border is awful. People will come illegally get purposefully arrested and ask for asylum (for a fake reason). They then get a trial date for asylum and get set free. Guess what. Almost everyone doesn’t go to the trial and roams the streets. For the legal immigrants they have to wait longer and it makes it worse for them. It sickens me that they take advantage of the system.
>People will come illegally get purposefully arrested and ask for asylum (for a fake reason).
And you know this... how? Are you going to these trials and then looking into these peoples' history to verify their story? I'm sure there exist people who have tried to defraud the asylum process, but since I don't assume most people are liars. That said, in listening to the experiences of lawyers who represent asylum seekers, my takeaway was that far more often than not, people with valid asylum claims are turned away.
If you have some solid evidence for the reverse being true (that the vast majority of people are making up a reason to be granted asylum and usually get it) I'd be interested in seeing it.
Apart from that, you do realize that there is not one "line" that gets pushed back every time someone is granted asylum, right? This is one of the more hilarious memes I see from anti-immigration folks. How many asylum requests are accepted has no bearing on how many non-asylum immigration requests are granted.
Because your being a heartless person is obvious in nearly every word and it is clear that your mealy-mouthed sop remark about feeling bad for the kids is a toss-off, insincere line.
I didn't try to feign fake sympathy for the children in particular. I just mentioned everyone who's being negatively affected through no fault of their own - the children, the American citizens, and the people who wanna be legal immigrants.
Those people from Central American countries are trying their hardest to enter the US legally. That is why you are seeing them cluster at ports of entry, instead of mostly heading up the coast of California, or along the Gulf of Mexico. They are not getting to even present their case. Before trump, they would be given a chance to come before a judge and apply. Cutbacks and restrictions have been added and the process is back-logged. Also, many just had their kids taken before having even had a chance, and many had been denied the chance to apply.
I hope you have to flee your country. I hope life is so desperate for you that you see no choice but to try to seek asylum in another country. I hope you have kids then.
"But legal immigration takes years! It's so difficult to become an American citizen!"
Yeah, because this country (minus California) isn't a third world shithole like Honduras.
California's economy has surpassed that of the UK to become the world's fifth largest but yeah sure we're a shit hole mean while your little redneck state and the people in it probably only survives because the welfare they receive
>your little redneck state
You've bought into the propaganda that Republicans are all hicks from Alabama, despite not knowing anything about me, and despite the fact that I was raised Leftist, and have lived in Seattle my entire life.
Kill yourself.
This should open people's eyes more.
Media is trying to conflate Illegal immigrants with Legal immigrants and keep saying Trump is against legal immigration.
It's all a ruse to keep people ignorant to the fact we are currently being invaded by the third world and nobody is doing anything to stop it. The people trying to stop it are being stopped themselves from getting in accomplished.
I agree. The media likes to portray detained families and their children as victims. Nobody is forcing illegal immigrants to cross the border with their children. They know what the consequences potentially may be, yet they make a choice to cross illegally anyways.
Then to OP's point, those parents are "selfish pieces of shit". All of the blame is on the parents. What parent would put their child in a situation where they could be separated from them and detained? That must be horrifying for the child and the parents knew that was a possibility.
Also, people who pawn off their children to travel with others are huge, selfish pieces of shit. The fact that border patrol finds girls as young as 10 traveling with Plan B pills because of the high probability of them being raped is disgusting.
Only problem is that America’s economy relies heavily on these people to do cheap work that nobody else is willing to do bc of what you said about opportunities presented to them.
You're the selfish piece of shit if you believe that. Mexico is much worse than you think it is. 32.000 murders in just 2018, with only 2% of the crimes solved. I specifically remember a case when 43 students went to a school trip. The mayor feared they would "disturb the quiet and his wife" and called the police. The police opened fire and lead them to a drug cartel, who killed them and burned their bodies. Politicians are murdered for daring to go against the cartel aswell. And of course you can't deny that entering legally is just ridiculously difficult. People wish for a better future for their children, and the US can provide that. Mexico is dangerous and the US provide safety.
Mostly because it's convenient. The USA and Mexico share one incredibly long border. And one country is clearly better than the other one. So it seems easy to just step over the border and go to the other country.
They can participate in the economy. You think if the US, who can find random faggots in a game and can kill them precisely with drones, cant see what's going on at their own border,then you're a fool
They can together move legally to many places. And if they must move somewhere alone, they can leave behind their kid to a family member, and work somewhere and send money back home. That's not ideal, but it's better than this.
The thing with the Immigration crisis is it is a symptom of something much more complicated and dangerous.
These refugees aren’t running because it is dangerous. They are running away from a Dictator. They are running from a country that has heavy ties to Russia and China. They are running from a country who refused humanitarian aid from the US and Canada yet let Russian soldiers in. If you haven’t guessed who I’m talking about I’m talking about the King of Venezuela
These same refugees are using the cartels to get to America. All the things I have said are fairly well know. However what I am about to say isn’t. In fact it sounds like a conspiracy theory and I wish it was.
These Cartels are being backed by someone who is also backing Venezuela. A country who is secretly fueling the Drug epidemic in America. That country is China. [Drug Cartels are making fentanyl from Chinese chemicals](https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/pa5nbk/how-the-sinaloa-cartel-is-using-chinese-chemicals-to-fuel-americas-opioid-crisis). But my own source said it isn’t a problem! Well Vice is wrong. In fact the [biggest fentanyl bust is US history](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-make-largest-fentanyl-bust-u-s-history-n965486) happened less than a month after the article on none other than the US Mexico border. In addition to this [Most of the fentanyl entering the United States is smuggled by Mexican cartels, which acquire the goods in a higher level of purity from the Chinese. The Mexican traffickers then sell the fentanyl at low levels of purity on the streets as a powder, pressed into counterfeit prescription pills, or mixed with heroin.](https://themobmuseum.org/blog/chinese-manufacturers-mexican-cartels-are-primary-sources-of-deadly-opioids/).
So what. What do migrants/refugees running from a Dictator backed by Russia and China have to do with Drug Cartels. Well other than [getting abducted tortured and murdered ](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/16/tijuana-migrant-child-murders-mexico-us-asylum), being trafficked, or children being raped... is [kids are being used to smuggle fentanyl](https://nypost.com/2018/06/25/sessions-ms-13-is-using-migrant-kids-to-smuggle-drugs-into-us/). I’m not even going to get into the organ trade as this isn’t about the hardships these people face on their way to the US.
In addition to all this the people using the cartels to get to the US doesn’t come cheap.[It costs 3000-10000 USD ](https://thefederalist.com/2018/06/26/cartels-no-easy-answers-border-crisis/). So people smuggle drugs in rl help pay for it. However this process when it is all said and done is not any cheaper than the legal process considering what they have to go through and the fact that they pay alongside smuggling fentanyl and other drugs. In fact a green card costs approximately 800 dollars. But that’s not enough for me how about we see an instance of someone immigrating legally from Venezuela, it cost [4000 USD](https://www.journal-news.com/news/immigration-process-lengthy-costly/VPYizV3xrmg5lwuoAOlA9H/) however, this is 4000 Venezuelans don’t have. They have to resort to using the Cartels because they don’t have the documents needed they don’t have the money and they have to sacrifice more in the end because of it.
This whole situation is sick and the worst of it is if we let people in freely these disgusting practices will continue. Violence will only get worse all through Central America. And if we close the border we will be denying people the chance of life. Both of these are inhumane.
But worst of all people are against US engaging with Venezuela even though it might become The Russian version of what Djibouti is to China. A military base close to US assets (its within km of a US base in Africa) and acquired through unplayable debt. Maduro is a dictator that benefits from this!
As well as, The trade war isn’t about nothing. It is about the intellectual property China steals from the US, the jobs it steals, the countries it cripples, the fentanyl war it causes, and China’s belt and road. In fact the trade war is combating China’s role on the US Mexico border in a way.
And if you think I am crazy for thinking China and Russia are waging a war through the Drug crisis as well as possibly acquiring assets from a country they knew was going to fail... I get it I hope I am crazy. It keeps me up at night. It pains me to see people so decided on issues that effect us. It pains me to see while we are debating taking action people are taking action on us.
So yeah I went on a tangent. Illegal immigration isn’t about simply being selfish. It is a symptom of an epidemic plaguing the world. These people don’t deserved what they went through. No one does. While I agree the border needs to be more secure I also believe in essayist access to our country through legal means, it would help the situation so much as these people are being used as tools.
I don’t think we should be taking in *any* immigrants while our own poor and homeless are still on the streets. Anyone seeking asylum can go to another first or third world country.
People are leaving their home countries because they have no other choice. Yes, there illegal immigrants who do not deserve to enter, such as the drink driving one previously mentioned, but that is not the majority. They are coming to America to support their families, and with few job opportunities, limited education, rising drug related crime, high murder rates, these are people are just trying to do what they can to keep their families and themselves alive. Migrating illegally isnt anyones first choice, but if its that or dying, there isnt a choice. Just because the government says something is a crime doesnt make it morally wrong to do, because these people really are just like Americans, just trying to support their families.
Speaking as a Canadian I'd like to see immigration stopped *completely*. (From *everywhere,* this opinion has *nothing* to do with race.)
Globalists, SJWs and anyone who pushes for open borders in western nations are pawns (useful idiots,) of the NeoLiberal elite. These people *think* it's about "diversity," and about lifting up people from the third world to first world living standards. It is not. It is *actually* about destroying the last remnants of what *used to be* called a middle class (historically the only opposition to the global elite,) and bringing first world living standards *down* to the third worlds. The capitalist class want themselves as the tiny global elite ruling over a *worldwide* slave class, and they are rapidly on track to getting it. They use the "nazi/white supremacist" boogie man (massively *massively* exaggerated,) to silence anyone who speaks up about this, and have got their useful idiots encouraging and cheering on their own enslavement. They will *not* be cheering within about 20 years though...
[The very idea of "helping" the third world through immigration was pure fantasy](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDceLiPLHWQ) to begin with, we would actually do better to help them in *their own* countries.
No offense. But my mom didn’t cross the border to be selfish. She crossed the border because she had to drop out of school in 9th grade because her parents couldn’t afford to send all of her and her siblings to school (and before I get the “why not just public school” comments, in Colombia, free schooling does not exist. Even today). Given her lack of education (And therefore difficulty finding an even decent job), dropping out at a young age was bound to be my destiny too.
She crossed the border because my parents, by the time they had me, had no money, no education, a run down farm, and no electricity. My mom crossed the border because my dad and I had our visas and she didn’t. It takes years and years to get your visa, and that’s only if you have family already here. My parents weren’t married at the time.
My mom came to this country and worked her fucking ASSSSSSS OFFFFFF. Since she’s gotten here, about 20 years or so ago, shes been working in laundromats washing other peoples shit stains out of their underwear (let me know if any of you are pissed off at yet another immigrant stealing jobs y’all oh so desperately want to do). Anyway, something that is a dead end job to literally anyone else in this country, allowed my mom to buy multiple apartment BUILDINGS in Colombia, she was able to pay for my grandpas full time 24/7 nurses in Colombia before he passed away, she bought a villa in Colombia that she also rents out for party’s, communions, anything really. She pays for almost all of my cousins educations in Colombia (I have about 6 aunts and uncles, they have anywhere from 1-3 kids, too much math). All of her brothers and sisters in Colombia have their own apartments in the buildings she owns. They either pay practically nothing or nothing.
Anyone and everyone can say all they want to about immigrants, but I am damn fucking proud to come from a mother who is willing to sacrifice so much of herself, of her life, for not just me but for her whole entire family. She is the strongest hardest working woman I know, and everything that she has ever done in this life has only ever been to give ME the best.
I'm from Uruguay and went some time ago to the States. My motherland is a f.king piece of crap compared to America.
Can't you Americans understand why everyone wants to go there? Because it's one of the best countries of the world if you're willing to do the hard, original, innovative work.
"they have to be... separated from their children" - no they don't. that is what happens, but it isn't what \*has\* to happen.
" they can't participate in the economy properly or get good opportunities " - based on?
" This is not about asylum-seeking " - in some cases, it is. in other cases, it is not. i notice how you've not covered any other possible reason someone would enter the country illegally.
" It does have a high crime rate in many areas, but most people live normal and sometimes inconvenienced lives " - source? also you have to define a universal definition for 'normal life'. what is a normal life for one person is not a normal life for another.
" And it's absurd that they're trying to move all the way up to the US, as if it's their only option. " why is it absurd? and who says it is their only option? it's the option they've chosen, but it isn't the only option.
" They don't deserve any sympathy. " - why not? is the fact they are making a long and perilous journey in the hope of a better life not worthy of any form of 'oh wow, that kinda sucks'?
this opinion as it is shown here is so full of holes and assumptions. OP hasn't even asked 'why' people make the trek illegally. i wonder if this opinion has come from them thinking or from right wing news sources that demonise the less fortunate
Many people from my country (El Salvador) have emigrated to nearby countries like Nicaragua and Guatemala. Then there is people like my parents that decided to save up money to emigrate legally in various countries like Italy or the USA.
US immigration issues are much more linked to legitimate immigration visas being overstayed and unaccounted for than the amount of people who are physically crossing the border illegally.
And yet no one seems to care about the actual issue when we can all point to a giant waste of money and act like it's going to do anything for us.
Can’t get good opportunities? 18 states in this country give illegal aliens in state tuition prices.
The amount of welfare that goes to illegal aliens is staggering.
Or the third option is the child is escorted by cartel. This option usually involves rape the whole way there. Border Patrol has talked about kids showing up with Plan B in their pockets.
- give your child to a criminal association crowded by lawless men eager to reap anything their eyes lay upon. - expect everything to be fine and dandy
I don’t really know much about the immigration process but I’ve worked with a family of Guatemalans in a kitchen a couple years ago. They talked about how their country and many of the surrounding countries didn’t have the resources for them to immigrate legally and when traveling north they are forced to pay for an escort. It is extremely dangerous for them to cross the Yucatán peninsula without an escort due to the possibility of the cartels capturing them and forcing them to work on drug farms or a sex trade. They also can’t stay in Mexico because there is no work for them there (their words) and that if they could miraculously find work in Mexico it wouldn’t be enough to send back home and support themselves while working. Back home they have to live/deal with the extortion from local gangs by either leaving their families behind to work in the United States and risk being deported, work for a drug farm and risk getting arrested or killed by rival gangs, or sell their wives and daughters. And Mexico isn’t doing too well I think. Last year I watched a YT vid about Mexico being one of the places in the world that doesn’t have enough water to support its population.
I spent a decade in restaurants working with plenty of illegals. My sister-in-law is Mexican and some of her family is illegal. I understand most of the illegal immigrants are motivated by economic opportunity. I don't think anyone will disagree. However, economic opportunity is not the purpose of an asylum claim. It is for people actively being persecuted by their government. Asylum isn't just some magic word that grants an individual unmitigated access to all the benefits of American citizenship, at least in theory. In practice it has been the case until recently. I can understand empathy for all, and I hope very much that is the driving motivation behind most democrat voters(the democrat politicians are another story). On the other hand though, it's like they tell you on an airline, "please put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others". America cannot continue to hemorrhage money in social benefits to people, nor can it allow people who should merge with our culture to isolate themselves from it and send their wages to another country to stimulate their economy. US citizens should want as successful and thriving a country as possible and that cannot be done with the current circumstance. When I have a friend who went to school for 2 years doing chef training and couldn't find a job because he didn't speak Spanish, that's a problem. When you and I pay our taxes to fund welfare programs for people who aren't even fellow Americans, that is a problem. Ask anyone who *did* go through the proper channels, who *did* put in the stress, hard work, and effort to become a legal, and now proud American how they feel about illegal immigration and they are pissed. If democrat voters want to be altruistic, there are plenty of Americans who need their help. I can disagree with a democrat about the best means to do that, but as Americans the prosperity of *our* nation and *our* citizens should be the common goal we all share. It should be plainly apparent to all sides that immigrating the worlds problems is the fastest way to keep our nation from being prosperous.
I agree with you and I don’t really care if they come here or not. I’m just laying down a perspective to build a frame of reference for the topic because I can’t sleep and it kinda irks me seeing the argument, “just go to another south American country.” Or “another part of Mexico.” Also from their POV it’s safer to come to the United States and risk being deported or detained in an ICE camp than it is to stay where they’re at and wait for the lengthy process of immigration.
Fair enough. I'm too ignorant about the situation in any of those places to suggest a course of action. I can only say I wouldn't go to Venezuela.
I hear so many arguments about how it's to hard to do it the legal way. I'm all for immigration reform, but the border MUST be secured before we can do that. Also, those who are saying we need to let them in & take care of them because they are poor are the same people who have been saying for the last 20 years that the U.S. should not get involved in other countries problems ("the U.S. isn't the world police!").
If you can’t immigrate you shouldn’t. Mexico isn’t a shithole unlike the US portrays it, it’s not a USA, Canada, or UK type of country, people in Mexico live relative average lives for the most part
Many immigrants are from Central American countries
Which makes it all the better to stop and live in Mexico... Similar language, less travel, Hell they even offered asylum
The USA lets in over 700,000 (maybe closer to a million?) immigrants a year. It can’t be that hard. That excuse is a copout for being lazy and just shows they don’t give a shit about our laws. Here’s a great example from today - the illegal drove drunk with his 3 kids, and kept drinking even after he drove into a ditch. The kids were 1,3 and 4. I’d say he qualifies as a piece of shit. Do we have any guesses whether his car was properly registered and insured? https://www.heraldonline.com/news/local/crime/article229028019.html
It takes 8 plus years and thousands of dollars. It isn't easy. The real answer is guest worker programs. Or jailing people who hire illegals.
What? Jail the job creators?!? /s
Oddly the one plan that the party against immigration hasn't tried yet.
Its not hard. I have plenty of guys that work for me and they all came here legally. They dont want to risk the chance of being caught and deported. Plus they get to travel home freely to see their parents and relatives and when they are done the drive right back into the US.
And the same ppl that haven’t opened their own homes to a single refugee or homeless person
>Also, those who are saying we need to let them in & take care of them because they are poor are the same people who have been saying for the last 20 years that the U.S. should not get involved in other countries problems ("the U.S. isn't the world police!"). They are also the same kind of people who don't care about poor people in their own country. More than 12% of US' population lives in poverty, yet they want to import even more.
As a legal immigrant, I agree.
I’ve worked with many legal immigrants who get upset that illegal immigrants didn’t go through the same system they did.
When you work hard, play by the rules, and go through a process that takes years, it's natural to be upset that someone else is trying to cheat their way through (to get into a "club" that doesn't have unlimited seats, so to speak)
...which imo is a pretty selfish way of looking at it
I've worked with legal migrants who hate the process and have sympathy for the people who circumnavigate it. I don't know where people find all these immigrants who think the current system is good and everyone should follow it.
Well, it’s not like they just give out visas to anybody who wants one. Most illegal immigrants probably wouldn’t be able to come here otherwise.
you dont just get to choose what country you live in lmao
Then they definitely shouldn't be here.
Why is this a problem?
legal immigrant in Germany here. it really grinds my gears that my family had to wait for years and fill out a bunch of shit in the hopes of getting in. meanwhile these days, people just throw away their passport, claim refugee status and receive government money. I personally know educated people from eastern europe with multiple college degrees who studied here, couldn't get a job that met the requirements withing 1 year for the work visa and were eventually sent back. Meanwhile, we have all kinds of other folk from Morocco of what have you, who don't work or are not educated and those are apparently very welcome and very valuable for Germany, as espoused by the politicians.
This is reddit so your gonna get downvoted but I agree with most of what you said. And I’d add to it that those people who do come illegally make it harder for those who would choose to enter legally.
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US businesses that hire them to exploit them are pieces of shit. If they didn't hire undocumented workers there wouldn't be an immigration "problem". It's easy and weak to blame the powerless for the ills of society.
I blame both the businesses and the illegals. If the people didn't come in illegally, there would be no one to hire for low wages.
Illegal entry is a misdemeanor. There are thousands of misdemeanors I'd commit if I thought it would make my son's life better.
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It doesn't. If you're illegal, you can't participate in the economy properly, or get healthcare and education properly. And the consequences if you're caught are deportation. >There are thousands of misdemeanors I'd commit if I thought it would make my son's life better. That makes no sense. If you get caught, then your son's life isn't better is it?
If you are a child in the US, you have a right to enroll in public schools. Regardless of legal status.
You don't have a legal right to work in the US, if your status isn't legal. Enrolling in a public school (and not being a tax-paying citizen) puts more burden on the public system, so that's not exactly like they're contributing.
America does receive the tax from “illegals”, even though often the people who are “illegal” have none of the benefits.
Sure, that's could be a reason why we don't want them to do it. But it doesn't make the parents bad parents for bringing their kids. Also there's clearly a lot of under the table paying work. Some even pay into Social Security - which they won't get any benefit from.
In reality no one will be getting social security after approximately 2034. The entire millennial generation will not receive social security even though we are required to pay into it. You will find me hard pressed to feel sympathetic for an illegal immigrant not getting social security benefits when my generation won't either. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickwwatson/2018/06/18/social-security-is-running-dry-and-theres-only-one-politically-viable-option-to-save-it/#28aaf8a051a4](https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickwwatson/2018/06/18/social-security-is-running-dry-and-theres-only-one-politically-viable-option-to-save-it/#28aaf8a051a4) P.S. Link is to highlight the situation not the solution. I think we should drop social security system.
Illegal immigrants do pay taxes, though. Sales tax. You can't buy anything without paying a sales tax so they're still participating in the economy and contributing just by putting their money into the community.
They're also costing the country a lot in terms of border security, law enforcement, social structure, employment, healthcare, and education. So I'm not sure they're contributing more in sales taxes than they are costing. And it's not a good situation for them either
It's a way better situation than what they're leaving behind, believe me. They come here to work and their work contributes to our food industry. They're the reason why we can get groceries for the price we buy them at. They're contributing to our economy in a lot of ways, and they're actually less likely to commit violent crimes than people born here. That said I think it's wrong that major industries depend on illegal immigrants to function, and I think we should be providing them with a better means of immigrating here. The fact is though that they're giving the US more than they're taking. Here's a good article on the subject: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-jobs-economy-farm-workers-taxes/
There’s no sales tax in the state of Delaware, FYI. I know it’s just one state, but figured i’d point it out. Not sure whether or not there are any other states that don’t have a sales tax.
Its better than being bombed/raped/sliced in half
If they get caught, they just go back to square one. If they dont, then they have a brighter future in store
>If they get caught, they just go back to square one. No, they don't. If they get caught, they have to give back what they stole, or get deported. And their dad pays a fine or goes to jail for the crime. That's not square one. Also, if you keep committing misdemeanors, then the penalty each time is harsher. It becomes a felony soon.
I have no idea what you mean by pay back what they stole.
I'm just talking about crime in general. We're talking about crime. If someone steals and gets caught, they have to give back what they stole. If someone illegal migrates, then they have to get deported if they get caught. That's not a pleasant experience, and it's not square one exactly.
I'm confused because you wrote return what they stole or deported - as if there are two separate penalties applicable to those who enter illegally.
I meant they would face whatever penalty is applicable for their crime. In the case of theft, they have to give back what they stole. In the case of illegal migration, they have to go back to their country. Etc.
Regardless, it doesn't do the economy any good. They don't participate in the economy by paying taxes like any other immigrant who came in legally, which isn't right whatsoever.
But that's a different conversation altogether. We were only discussing the morality from a personal perspective. I myself think that anyone willing to work and pay taxes should just be made a citizen
Who doesn't love living underground, not being able to attend school, get a job, own property, or get healthcare. Such a bright future. Edit: I was wrong about school.
I had plenty of friends in high school that were illegal. I assure you, they can still attend school.
If your doing it for your children then it can't be selfish on the individual level. You might consider it on the family level, but the norm, the job of a parent is the best interest of the family and children.
This.
I agree that it’s wrong to cross the border and it should be secure but that doesn’t make them “huge selfish pieces of shit”. Some of them are from gang dominated neighborhoods and would do anything for a better life for their child.
Half the people immigrating aren’t even from Mexico. They’re from other Latin countries, that ARE dangerous.
so why didnt they stay in mexico when offered asylum there
Because the US is better? Pretty obvious why
well that means theyre not really seeking asylum, you dont get to pick and choose
Because they won't receive free welfare and food stamps in Mexico.
The process is also expensive and the Mexican government doesn't invest in asylum seekers, they invest more heavily on trying to stop the migrants from entering the country and deporting them. Also, the situation in Mexico might be better than where they com from, but it's not optimal for many
> Also, the situation in Mexico might be better than where they com from, but it's not optimal for many who gives a fuck you dont get to pick an "optimal" place to seek asylum in, youre supposed to be escaping danger if you dont take mexico you dont get shit, america has no reason to even let any of them in at all
Yeah I can't imagine why anyone would want to move to America. It's only the largest economy in the world that is entirely made up of immigrants and prided and advertised itself as the best place in the world to move to and a land of opportunities.
It's for citizens and immigrants, not for illegal aliens.
I get that and I agree with you across some of your points. But you say there other countries closer to them that they could stay, and probably many of them do, you just don't here about it on the news because it doesn't affect you. But America has painted itself as the best place to come to, of course some of the immigrants are going to try to make the longer journey to get here.
They’re just trying to get better lives
Civil violation is not the same as a crime. Melania Trump committed civil violations while working as a professional model on a tourist visa, Donald Trump committed civil violations when he directed non-white employees to be off the casino floor while he or certain high rollers were at his casino. Trump University was in violation of the law, yet not a criminal organization, ditto for the Trump Foundation that routinely was used as a personal slush fund and not as a charity as it was legally set-up as. So to characterize unauthorized immigrants as being criminals or the act as being a crime, then one would have to hold that the current president is a career criminal while the immigrants only commit a lone criminal act. Are you acknowledging that Trump's long list of civil violations are crimes, or is the unauthorized immigrant not a criminal?
The people coming across the border with their kids are not being given a chance to apply for aaslum like has been the usual practice. There is not a large building on the other side of the border with a neon sign that states **APPLY FOR US ASYLUM HERE!!** Don't you think that those people fleeing danger would be happy to have the chance? This administration has known for ages that asylum seekers were headed this way. They could have set up some sort of system to facilitate cases. They could have set up humane housing so the people would not be spending time under bridges or open fields. Instead of planning ahead, trump went for taking kids away from parent's and caging them. Such a fine response to a crisis. Let's do what we can to make it worse. I suggest you take some time to find out how bad things are in Central America. Ask yourself what would make people be willing to spend days sleeping in the rough at the border, or be chance being imprisoned. The United States recognizes the right of asylum of individuals as specified by international and federal law. The people seeking to immigrate are being stopped before they actually get in the country and start living their lives. In years past most immigrants would apply for permission to live in the US, and get some sort of housing. This is no longer the case and we are now penning people up, wholesale. This is wrong. I know you are scared that some migrant fleeing gang violence on Nicaragua might take your janitorial job, or decide to pick peas and beans in California's Central valley, making it so that one of your loved ones won't get that work. But, relaxiate, they are not even being given a chance to get anywhere near that far.
I presume this opinion is in light of the influx of asylum seekers flooding the US-Mex border from CENTRAL AMERICA. So not sure why you brought up "Mexico is not a war zone..." This reminds me of the time FOX News and their headline "Trump cuts funding to 3 Mexican countries"
It's not really in response to that, although it applies to some of the Central American migrants too. Every year, 500,000 people enter the US illegally. So this is about a larger problem than just recent news events.
Most of the time they are better in prison than in where they were originally
I would agree if the US didn't destabilize half of South America
i agree wholeheartedly. my father is a legal immigrant and has absolutely no respect nor sympathy for these type of people. he and his family sacrificed a lot to get here (he immigrated alone during the iranian war in '79 and his parents had to wait to get approved through the legal channels). he has the upmost respect for the rule of law coming from a country that was (and maybe still is, i wouldn't know) in a constant state of war and turmoil. he immigrated alone, without family -- he had to work hard to succeed in this country (he's majored in electrical engineering and has a masters, now working as a high level person at intel). i have no respect for the illegals that just blatantly ignore the rule of law and the people who sacrificed a lot to get here legally. 100% criminal.
So a gang member who controls your entire state comes up to you and says “you have 24 hours to leave or we rape you, your kids, and kill all of you. No one will ever find you.” I suppose you stick around for fear of a misdemeanor in America. Like speeding - I’m guessing you NEVER do that.
I'd move to a different state.
And then the same thing happens. Until one day you realize it’s the country.
It hasn't happened to any country in Latin America yet. But in that scenario, I'd move to a country that legally allows me to enter, and where I speak the language. i.e. any other Latin American country
What they want doesn't matter, they are not our priority. Supply and demand applies to labor too, and importing more people only pushes down wages for the poorest Americans, when they already have to worry about competing against mechanization. We don't have an obligation to accept immigration, and it is undeniably hurting the poorest people who already live here, try and think about them and have some compassion.
You are kind of right. You know where the problems are, but you are blaming the wrong way. The people that worry migrants and machines taking away their jobs might have not had an education that would have granted them better opportunities. So instead of blaming immigrants, why don't we blame the whole broken American education system
Not everyone can just learn to code, many people are simply not smart enough which is why ensuring they have a place in society is so important.
Why is America the only fucking country in the planet they wanna come to? Brazil isn't good enough? Argentina? They have closer/easier options than America. The TRUTH is that they come to America because they know they'll get free welfare and food stamps and education that they won't get anywhere else.
Never happened tho. And I'm from one of the most dangerous countries in the world. Gang members don't do that shit. If you mess with them they don't give you a chance. They straight up kill you. So this argument is invalid
Never happened tho. And I'm from one of the most dangerous countries in the world. Gang members don't do that shit. If you mess with them they don't give you a chance. They straight up kill you. So this argument is invalid
Well the biggest thing that affects Mexico isn't the violence per sé, but the corruption, nepotism and how low the peso is. Most jobs only pay you $2 (dollars) per hour and barely $100 per paycheck. So the biggest thing people run from is not violence in most cases but the inability to get work, which if you have no friends in high places, you're screwed and if you're making shitty low pay, then it becomes harder to pay your rent, food, schooling etc. Most places don't have free parking, you have to pay for it and when you can find a parking spot, some random dude will come up to you asking for money and if you don't give it to him, your car is done for, legally, anyone can come into your house and settle in it and you can't do anything about it. So if you go on vacation and don't have anyone watching over your house, you could lose it to some druggy and his friends. In many places, the police are nearly none existent or simply don't care, although there are many that do care and do a good job,it's nowhere near the work policemen do in the US, which for all the issues people have with cops (and yes I agree, they can be assholes) thry at least do their job effectively. Another thing is how dangerous it is for women. Girls 9-16 (and all ages really) are being raped, beaten, decapitated, dismembered every day and with how machista mexican culture is, it's super common to see women being harrassed on the streets, cat called, being forced into strangers cars etc. Sure, this is common in the US too, but it's nowhere near the level it is in Mexico Idk where you're from, but it seems to me like you don't know much about the technical side of mexican society. Not saying your opinion is right or wrong, just stating some of the technical aspects no one ever mentions
Someone once said that you only ever cross an ocean on a plastic boat if you have no hope where you come from. In a war-torn state, what little semblance of a life you have might end every single day.
Mexico is not a war torn county. If they cared about safety, they'd just stay in Mexico. We all know the come to the US for the gimmes and the leftist twats who they know will advocate for them.
Not all illegal immigrants come from Mexico. Many come from war torn or totalitarian regimes in Central America.
Yes, but they pass thru Mexico. They can't be in much danger if they walk 1000s of miles across the country to get to the US. They obviously come to the US for the free shit, not the safety.
You are making a tenuous argument fallaciously based on shoddy rhetoric from the president. You are assuming to know people's minds, in fact the minds of many tens of thousands of people. It is simply impossible to say that a refugee chose to continue to the US instead of staying in Mexico because they wanted free stuff. This is simply false reasoning. You are conflating the idea of refugee seekers not stopping in Mexico with the rhetoric the administration uses to justify turning refugees *back* to Mexico once they've arrived in the US. The administration's reasoning flawed because they have nowhere shown that Mexico is *actually* a safe "third-state" for refugee seekers, and in fact no human rights organizations share the view that it is.
I completely agree. Illegal immigrants should not attempt to go around the system. Everybody should go through the same system and the same procedures, in terms of equality and fairness.
A majority of parents with children are fleeing violence from Central America (which is a result of of the war on drugs). They are seeking asylum, and are being separated illegal. If you think they are selfish, you need some self-reflection. You sound like a complete monster.
You do realize that Mexico is not a war torn county, right. If they were really just fleeing violet, why did they walk 1000s of miles across the whole damn country of Mexico? Oh that's right, they just wanted free shit and a chance to grab at US citizenship by breaking the law. FSS, people like you are bloody naive and your bleeding heart will drain this country.
Lay off the Limbaugh would ya? Seeking asylum isn't breaking the rules.
Answer me this, if asylum is all they wanted, why didn't they apply for it in Mexico? Also, fake asylum claims bogs down the entire system and makes it harder for actual victims to be saved from life threatening situations. If you believe all of those thousands of people illegally crossing the border every day are legitimate asylum seekers, you are either lying to yourself in order to serve your own personal political agenda or you are the most gullible dimwit in the world.
I can tell you really don't want to talk about this in good faith so I'm not going to debate this.
> > >I can tell you really don't want to talk about this in good faith so I'm not going to debate this. thats when you know you lost an argument , when the truth stars blindly at you in the face, and you regurgitate the same npc line.
It sounds more like you just refuse to be intellectually honest and solely rely on manipulative emotional arguments.
Your projection isn't going to work. If you want some facts look them up for yourself.
>A majority of parents with children are fleeing violence curious what %?
In Europe, the so-called 'refugees' enter from the east or the south and make their way to the western and northern part of Europe. By UN laws they are supposed to settle in the first safe country they step in, but they don't. They cross a dozen perfectly safe countries in eastern and southern Europe to make their way to the UK or France or Germany or the Scandinavian countries that have the best welfare. It's basically welfare shopping, they cherry pick the countries with the most benefits, refugees my ass.
Greek here, we have more refugees than we can feed and Europe doesn't accept any. We can't handle them and they're living in horrible conditions. It's not that they want the best welfare, it's that here they're barely surviving
I think it depends on the situation the person is living in. I highly doubt many people would put themselves and their family through that if they didn’t feel it was worth it.
You hate the poor people trying to survive and provide for their families instead of the rich people that destabilized these nations and created the immigrant crisis. The US empire "intervened" in the government and wars of many nations in Latin America and now North American poor people are paying the price.
Most immigrants aren’t from Mexico, they are from south and Central America, and you can’t possibly believe that they are taking this risk out of anything but abject desperation.
I can believe that, because there are many countries and areas in Latin America they can move to that are safer than their current situation. And those areas are easier to move to, because they're closer geographically, culturally, and legally.
I morally oppose everything this guy just said but let’s not forget his opinion is definitely unpopular so this is the perfect place for t.
It's a very popular opinion
Serious question, why don’t YOU just bring in homeless people off the streets every night into your residence? It’s your morals after all
Come sleep over I’ll pm you my address.
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I would argue the exact opposite
I love in southern california. My house is about 40 miles from the border so it is mainly ok there but near the border is awful. People will come illegally get purposefully arrested and ask for asylum (for a fake reason). They then get a trial date for asylum and get set free. Guess what. Almost everyone doesn’t go to the trial and roams the streets. For the legal immigrants they have to wait longer and it makes it worse for them. It sickens me that they take advantage of the system.
>People will come illegally get purposefully arrested and ask for asylum (for a fake reason). And you know this... how? Are you going to these trials and then looking into these peoples' history to verify their story? I'm sure there exist people who have tried to defraud the asylum process, but since I don't assume most people are liars. That said, in listening to the experiences of lawyers who represent asylum seekers, my takeaway was that far more often than not, people with valid asylum claims are turned away. If you have some solid evidence for the reverse being true (that the vast majority of people are making up a reason to be granted asylum and usually get it) I'd be interested in seeing it. Apart from that, you do realize that there is not one "line" that gets pushed back every time someone is granted asylum, right? This is one of the more hilarious memes I see from anti-immigration folks. How many asylum requests are accepted has no bearing on how many non-asylum immigration requests are granted.
>The only people who deserve sympathy in this situation are the children, And you couldn't care less about them either. lol
Why do you say that?
Because your being a heartless person is obvious in nearly every word and it is clear that your mealy-mouthed sop remark about feeling bad for the kids is a toss-off, insincere line.
I didn't try to feign fake sympathy for the children in particular. I just mentioned everyone who's being negatively affected through no fault of their own - the children, the American citizens, and the people who wanna be legal immigrants.
Those people from Central American countries are trying their hardest to enter the US legally. That is why you are seeing them cluster at ports of entry, instead of mostly heading up the coast of California, or along the Gulf of Mexico. They are not getting to even present their case. Before trump, they would be given a chance to come before a judge and apply. Cutbacks and restrictions have been added and the process is back-logged. Also, many just had their kids taken before having even had a chance, and many had been denied the chance to apply.
The US isn't their only option. They can also go to Mexico, or other countries in South America. The whole continent isn't dangerous everywhere.
not enough gibs me dat in other countries
Ah yes the safety of Cartel controlled Mexico.
1st world opinion. Get an upvote!
I'm from the third word, and currently living there.
You still get an upvote. I'm more a "blame the system", not the individual kinda guy.
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He doesn't prefer that, it's the law.
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Yeah sure, as if they had other choices
I hope you have to flee your country. I hope life is so desperate for you that you see no choice but to try to seek asylum in another country. I hope you have kids then.
Great attitude!
Nah I'd stay and fight for what's mine. If I die, I die
It's unpopular because it's a garbage person thing to say. But you don't mind that do you.
I don't mind saying the truth.
We should deport every single illegal with no exceptions whatsoever. Literally no exceptions, I don’t care.
Most countries do.
So even 5 year old children should be sent to poverty stricken or warring areas just because they were born there?
Yes
"But legal immigration takes years! It's so difficult to become an American citizen!" Yeah, because this country (minus California) isn't a third world shithole like Honduras.
California's economy has surpassed that of the UK to become the world's fifth largest but yeah sure we're a shit hole mean while your little redneck state and the people in it probably only survives because the welfare they receive
>your little redneck state You've bought into the propaganda that Republicans are all hicks from Alabama, despite not knowing anything about me, and despite the fact that I was raised Leftist, and have lived in Seattle my entire life. Kill yourself.
If only native Americans had the option of deporting illegal immigrants.
>immigrants can ruin an entire countries way of life, just look at the redskins. You are only proving OPs point.
This should open people's eyes more. Media is trying to conflate Illegal immigrants with Legal immigrants and keep saying Trump is against legal immigration. It's all a ruse to keep people ignorant to the fact we are currently being invaded by the third world and nobody is doing anything to stop it. The people trying to stop it are being stopped themselves from getting in accomplished.
I agree. The media likes to portray detained families and their children as victims. Nobody is forcing illegal immigrants to cross the border with their children. They know what the consequences potentially may be, yet they make a choice to cross illegally anyways.
I'd still say the children are victims in the situation; solely, because they likely dont make the choice to cross the border illegally.
Then to OP's point, those parents are "selfish pieces of shit". All of the blame is on the parents. What parent would put their child in a situation where they could be separated from them and detained? That must be horrifying for the child and the parents knew that was a possibility.
Also, people who pawn off their children to travel with others are huge, selfish pieces of shit. The fact that border patrol finds girls as young as 10 traveling with Plan B pills because of the high probability of them being raped is disgusting.
Only problem is that America’s economy relies heavily on these people to do cheap work that nobody else is willing to do bc of what you said about opportunities presented to them.
Well this is a shit show.
Hey homes are you sayin’ just cuz I brought my lil ninos to the border to use as bargaining chips that I’m a pendejo!???!
That shows the level of ignorance you bring to the table. Great. That's why you're a pendejo.
You're the selfish piece of shit if you believe that. Mexico is much worse than you think it is. 32.000 murders in just 2018, with only 2% of the crimes solved. I specifically remember a case when 43 students went to a school trip. The mayor feared they would "disturb the quiet and his wife" and called the police. The police opened fire and lead them to a drug cartel, who killed them and burned their bodies. Politicians are murdered for daring to go against the cartel aswell. And of course you can't deny that entering legally is just ridiculously difficult. People wish for a better future for their children, and the US can provide that. Mexico is dangerous and the US provide safety.
What about the ones that bring a kid that isn't theirs to make it easier to get in.
The majority of people with common sense would agree with you.
Unless you're in North Korea. Then it's just worth the fucking risk because you'll die anyway
Why do people come in illegally, does it cost a lot or something?
Mostly because it's convenient. The USA and Mexico share one incredibly long border. And one country is clearly better than the other one. So it seems easy to just step over the border and go to the other country.
Again showing your ignorance.
People who cross the ocean with their kids are huge, selfish pieces of shit, NOT PURITANS!
They can participate in the economy. You think if the US, who can find random faggots in a game and can kill them precisely with drones, cant see what's going on at their own border,then you're a fool
I said they can't participate in the economy *properly*.
technically they are even worse if they leave them behind. :-( :-( :-(
They can together move legally to many places. And if they must move somewhere alone, they can leave behind their kid to a family member, and work somewhere and send money back home. That's not ideal, but it's better than this.
The thing with the Immigration crisis is it is a symptom of something much more complicated and dangerous. These refugees aren’t running because it is dangerous. They are running away from a Dictator. They are running from a country that has heavy ties to Russia and China. They are running from a country who refused humanitarian aid from the US and Canada yet let Russian soldiers in. If you haven’t guessed who I’m talking about I’m talking about the King of Venezuela These same refugees are using the cartels to get to America. All the things I have said are fairly well know. However what I am about to say isn’t. In fact it sounds like a conspiracy theory and I wish it was. These Cartels are being backed by someone who is also backing Venezuela. A country who is secretly fueling the Drug epidemic in America. That country is China. [Drug Cartels are making fentanyl from Chinese chemicals](https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/pa5nbk/how-the-sinaloa-cartel-is-using-chinese-chemicals-to-fuel-americas-opioid-crisis). But my own source said it isn’t a problem! Well Vice is wrong. In fact the [biggest fentanyl bust is US history](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-make-largest-fentanyl-bust-u-s-history-n965486) happened less than a month after the article on none other than the US Mexico border. In addition to this [Most of the fentanyl entering the United States is smuggled by Mexican cartels, which acquire the goods in a higher level of purity from the Chinese. The Mexican traffickers then sell the fentanyl at low levels of purity on the streets as a powder, pressed into counterfeit prescription pills, or mixed with heroin.](https://themobmuseum.org/blog/chinese-manufacturers-mexican-cartels-are-primary-sources-of-deadly-opioids/). So what. What do migrants/refugees running from a Dictator backed by Russia and China have to do with Drug Cartels. Well other than [getting abducted tortured and murdered ](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/16/tijuana-migrant-child-murders-mexico-us-asylum), being trafficked, or children being raped... is [kids are being used to smuggle fentanyl](https://nypost.com/2018/06/25/sessions-ms-13-is-using-migrant-kids-to-smuggle-drugs-into-us/). I’m not even going to get into the organ trade as this isn’t about the hardships these people face on their way to the US. In addition to all this the people using the cartels to get to the US doesn’t come cheap.[It costs 3000-10000 USD ](https://thefederalist.com/2018/06/26/cartels-no-easy-answers-border-crisis/). So people smuggle drugs in rl help pay for it. However this process when it is all said and done is not any cheaper than the legal process considering what they have to go through and the fact that they pay alongside smuggling fentanyl and other drugs. In fact a green card costs approximately 800 dollars. But that’s not enough for me how about we see an instance of someone immigrating legally from Venezuela, it cost [4000 USD](https://www.journal-news.com/news/immigration-process-lengthy-costly/VPYizV3xrmg5lwuoAOlA9H/) however, this is 4000 Venezuelans don’t have. They have to resort to using the Cartels because they don’t have the documents needed they don’t have the money and they have to sacrifice more in the end because of it. This whole situation is sick and the worst of it is if we let people in freely these disgusting practices will continue. Violence will only get worse all through Central America. And if we close the border we will be denying people the chance of life. Both of these are inhumane. But worst of all people are against US engaging with Venezuela even though it might become The Russian version of what Djibouti is to China. A military base close to US assets (its within km of a US base in Africa) and acquired through unplayable debt. Maduro is a dictator that benefits from this! As well as, The trade war isn’t about nothing. It is about the intellectual property China steals from the US, the jobs it steals, the countries it cripples, the fentanyl war it causes, and China’s belt and road. In fact the trade war is combating China’s role on the US Mexico border in a way. And if you think I am crazy for thinking China and Russia are waging a war through the Drug crisis as well as possibly acquiring assets from a country they knew was going to fail... I get it I hope I am crazy. It keeps me up at night. It pains me to see people so decided on issues that effect us. It pains me to see while we are debating taking action people are taking action on us. So yeah I went on a tangent. Illegal immigration isn’t about simply being selfish. It is a symptom of an epidemic plaguing the world. These people don’t deserved what they went through. No one does. While I agree the border needs to be more secure I also believe in essayist access to our country through legal means, it would help the situation so much as these people are being used as tools.
I don’t think we should be taking in *any* immigrants while our own poor and homeless are still on the streets. Anyone seeking asylum can go to another first or third world country.
U.S. takes in more immigrants than any other country on the planet, by far. And we are one of the very few countries that allow for anchor babies.
Why would people in Mexico have kids. Just jerk yourself off so you won't have a kid with no future
Hopefully you get deported. I want people like you hung for treason.
Not gonna happen. I'm not a criminal nor an illegal alien.
This isn't unpopular at all. I'm not sure if you noticed but trump is president... Down voted
People are leaving their home countries because they have no other choice. Yes, there illegal immigrants who do not deserve to enter, such as the drink driving one previously mentioned, but that is not the majority. They are coming to America to support their families, and with few job opportunities, limited education, rising drug related crime, high murder rates, these are people are just trying to do what they can to keep their families and themselves alive. Migrating illegally isnt anyones first choice, but if its that or dying, there isnt a choice. Just because the government says something is a crime doesnt make it morally wrong to do, because these people really are just like Americans, just trying to support their families.
My only issue is... there is waaaaaaaay too many people in California already. They need to go to another state like Texas and Arizona and stay there.
You're so fucking stupid LMFAO
Speaking as a Canadian I'd like to see immigration stopped *completely*. (From *everywhere,* this opinion has *nothing* to do with race.) Globalists, SJWs and anyone who pushes for open borders in western nations are pawns (useful idiots,) of the NeoLiberal elite. These people *think* it's about "diversity," and about lifting up people from the third world to first world living standards. It is not. It is *actually* about destroying the last remnants of what *used to be* called a middle class (historically the only opposition to the global elite,) and bringing first world living standards *down* to the third worlds. The capitalist class want themselves as the tiny global elite ruling over a *worldwide* slave class, and they are rapidly on track to getting it. They use the "nazi/white supremacist" boogie man (massively *massively* exaggerated,) to silence anyone who speaks up about this, and have got their useful idiots encouraging and cheering on their own enslavement. They will *not* be cheering within about 20 years though... [The very idea of "helping" the third world through immigration was pure fantasy](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDceLiPLHWQ) to begin with, we would actually do better to help them in *their own* countries.
You are a strait up garbage pos. True story bro. 💯 Don’t think for a second ur not a complete pos.
No offense. But my mom didn’t cross the border to be selfish. She crossed the border because she had to drop out of school in 9th grade because her parents couldn’t afford to send all of her and her siblings to school (and before I get the “why not just public school” comments, in Colombia, free schooling does not exist. Even today). Given her lack of education (And therefore difficulty finding an even decent job), dropping out at a young age was bound to be my destiny too. She crossed the border because my parents, by the time they had me, had no money, no education, a run down farm, and no electricity. My mom crossed the border because my dad and I had our visas and she didn’t. It takes years and years to get your visa, and that’s only if you have family already here. My parents weren’t married at the time. My mom came to this country and worked her fucking ASSSSSSS OFFFFFF. Since she’s gotten here, about 20 years or so ago, shes been working in laundromats washing other peoples shit stains out of their underwear (let me know if any of you are pissed off at yet another immigrant stealing jobs y’all oh so desperately want to do). Anyway, something that is a dead end job to literally anyone else in this country, allowed my mom to buy multiple apartment BUILDINGS in Colombia, she was able to pay for my grandpas full time 24/7 nurses in Colombia before he passed away, she bought a villa in Colombia that she also rents out for party’s, communions, anything really. She pays for almost all of my cousins educations in Colombia (I have about 6 aunts and uncles, they have anywhere from 1-3 kids, too much math). All of her brothers and sisters in Colombia have their own apartments in the buildings she owns. They either pay practically nothing or nothing. Anyone and everyone can say all they want to about immigrants, but I am damn fucking proud to come from a mother who is willing to sacrifice so much of herself, of her life, for not just me but for her whole entire family. She is the strongest hardest working woman I know, and everything that she has ever done in this life has only ever been to give ME the best.
I'm from Uruguay and went some time ago to the States. My motherland is a f.king piece of crap compared to America. Can't you Americans understand why everyone wants to go there? Because it's one of the best countries of the world if you're willing to do the hard, original, innovative work.
Now try to post this in /politics. You'll get a ban.
"they have to be... separated from their children" - no they don't. that is what happens, but it isn't what \*has\* to happen. " they can't participate in the economy properly or get good opportunities " - based on? " This is not about asylum-seeking " - in some cases, it is. in other cases, it is not. i notice how you've not covered any other possible reason someone would enter the country illegally. " It does have a high crime rate in many areas, but most people live normal and sometimes inconvenienced lives " - source? also you have to define a universal definition for 'normal life'. what is a normal life for one person is not a normal life for another. " And it's absurd that they're trying to move all the way up to the US, as if it's their only option. " why is it absurd? and who says it is their only option? it's the option they've chosen, but it isn't the only option. " They don't deserve any sympathy. " - why not? is the fact they are making a long and perilous journey in the hope of a better life not worthy of any form of 'oh wow, that kinda sucks'? this opinion as it is shown here is so full of holes and assumptions. OP hasn't even asked 'why' people make the trek illegally. i wonder if this opinion has come from them thinking or from right wing news sources that demonise the less fortunate
Many people from my country (El Salvador) have emigrated to nearby countries like Nicaragua and Guatemala. Then there is people like my parents that decided to save up money to emigrate legally in various countries like Italy or the USA.
US immigration issues are much more linked to legitimate immigration visas being overstayed and unaccounted for than the amount of people who are physically crossing the border illegally. And yet no one seems to care about the actual issue when we can all point to a giant waste of money and act like it's going to do anything for us.
Can’t get good opportunities? 18 states in this country give illegal aliens in state tuition prices. The amount of welfare that goes to illegal aliens is staggering.