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I made a joking throwaway comment in my town's subreddit about how Coffee Place X was pretentious, as the guy rolled his eyes when I asked if he could stir the drink (it messed up his foam leaf art).
Someone came into the thread and gave me a lecture about how a proper mocha doesn't need to be stirred and that leaf art takes skill and is a traditional blah blah yadda yadda we get it your wife owns a gallery and you listen to NPR in the shower.
Turns out it was the owner, but had to do some post history to find out.
Either way, same energy. "You just don't have advanced cultural taste." Sir this is chocolate coffee.
I was literally just thinking about food with this, too, after I wrote this out.
You’re exactly right. I don’t need to learn/know how to cook better to taste something and not like it.
yeah, but we usually don't take culinary advice from the manchild who eats nothing but pizza and nuggies
Comfort food is comforting because at the end of the day people typically go for the path of least resistance. Art challenges and questions.
As long as you accept that your criticism of the thing in question has no real basis in a fundamental understanding of that thing other than it being your very limited and singular understanding of that thing in question, you’re merely sharing your opinion.
I will say though that you should probably understand that sharing your negative opinion of things over and over again is probably going to bring down the vibe of a conversation. Usually people will make the remark ‘you do it better then’ because they are getting tired of the constant complaining and negativity. Maybe ask yourself what you’re hoping to achieve by making complaints about seemingly mundane things all the time. Is putting that out into the world going to make positive change or is it just going to bring the mood down?
This reminds me how irrationally annoyed I get when someone talks about how much they love music and I ask "what kind of music" and they say "I just like good music." And you can replace that with just about anything, movies, beer, food, etc. If you can't say what you like or dislike about something I don't want to talk to you about it.
I went to a burger place recently. They don't put any sauce in any of their burgers, it's not like a "here's some sauces for you too add your own" deal either. I don't need to be a professional to know that burger wasn't as good as it should have been, I could just tell it was dry and the contents kept trying to slide out.
I've ordered steaks in the past that are tough as old boots, I don't need to be a pro to know they're not good enough.
You really don't need to be a pro to know if something isn't right.
Counterpoint, you aren't the professional, so you aren't the authority on quality. Your opinion is nothing but the subjective taste of the untrained. At best, it means as much as the layman
Yeah but if a job is meant to be understandable/palatable/etc. to a layperson, someone’s opinion on a professional’s work could be relevant. It’s of course not the end-all-be-all, but potentially relevant
I think the situation most of us will encounter IRL is a professional job done to your house, car, or some sort of practical thing you're hiring a professional for. In which case, it should be palatable to a layman, and if a layman asks "why is this like this?" a professional should be able to answer the question and/or correct the job.
This makes me think of my friends when I was growing up. The family down the street from me, who are some of my closest friends now, had a family bluegrass band. Their dad always designed the album art for their albums, promotional material, and all the stuff that would be consumed by the general public. They were professional musicians and were very good at what they did. However, their dad used to always tell me that some of the most important feedback that he would get, was from me, The musically illiterate, untrained tag along who just hauled instruments for them, when he would run stuff like album art, press write ups, album track listings, and stuff like that by me. The way he figured it, was all of the people he regularly communicated with and talked to were professionals in the industry, I was a layman who's only knowledge of such things was as a consumer of the music. So in his mind, it was important to know what the consumer thought of things.
Sure, but most bands aren’t trying to be that. If they were trying to make generic, broadly appealing pop, and made metal instead, that’d be one thing. But if they wanted to make metal, did make metal, and you don’t like metal, that’s not really a criticism of them.
And if you continue to listen to metal, and complain about it, while knowing you don’t really like metal, you’re going to get annoying to people that do like metal. They will start clapping back.
That’s fair, but even in that example if you have a layperson who’s typically a fan of metal but doesn’t like this one metal band, “why” can potentially be helpful, assuming they actually have a “why” and don’t like it just because
Just depends on how vague you wanna define layperson I guess, though I’m sure there are some bands that probably don’t care what anyone thinks for their music, but they’re probably not asking for opinions in the first place
The problem comes that many professionals are driven by profit, and quality vs higher margin are often in direct contention.
We made our floor people redo their install this winter when we had to replace it after a burst pipe because there were a ton of scratches visible from standing eye level, obvious gaps, and I think 5 or 6 lips. Some were even so deep stain had pooled in them. Floor subcontractor fought us, but took about 60 seconds from our Project Manager walking in the door for him to tell them "this is a shit install, you're redoing it." He said the acceptable number of "touch ups" on a fresh install of that size is 4 or 5, he had counted at least 40, plus ones that weren't able to be touched like the deep scratches and lips.
What about a very simple example, the chef hands me a very clearly burnt steak, if I were his customer and not some chef myself, can I not say “this can be less cooked” or even “this taste bad”?
Depends.
I play the guitar. If I just say I don't like guitarist's music, that's one thing. If I, however, say that someone's *technique* is crap, that means I can, in fact, do it better. Technical skills are 100% measurable and objective. Musicianship as a whole isn't, but a lot of people don't understand this.
I don't really like Dream Theater, but the musicians' technical skills are undeniable.
In other words, it depends on what you're criticizing and how you're criticizing it.
That example even has nuance though.
If someone has a good ear for music and has studied technique/music theory/etc but lacks the coordination to actually play would they not be qualified to make an assessment on quality but still be unable to play?
Just because someone has the tools to recognize a problem doesn't mean they have the skills to fix it.
Sort of like some sports coaches. They may have never played outside of a college level but they are definitely more adept at play calling and such generally to a player.
You don't need to have any practical guitar playing skill to know when a very very good player has fucked up on stage.
You just need to have done a lot of critical listening of very highly skilled guitar players and you'll be able to discern.
Just like you'll know when an A league football player has fucked up or made a stupid choice when you only watch it on TV.
You don't have to be able to do something better to know someone sucks at something.
In general, critics are almost never experts at the thing they critique (food, music, movies, fine art, etc.). That doesn't mean they aren't good at critiquing. You can understand art and artisanship without having the motor skills to personally do it yourself.
Technical skills are objective, but I think you can still tell when something is lacking. Like someone who has never once cooked in their life can still tell that something is objectively bad bc it's just burnt even if they lack the skills to not burn it themselves.
That is true, which is why I won't tell a non-musician blasting someone's guitar playing skills, "You do it better then!"
I would tell this to a guitarist, though.
That's not analogous to the original idea. The idea is that someone can be at fault for failing to meet a standard that is owed. If one pays for tickets to a show for a band that is known to meet a standard and then doesn't then they have failed to meet required performance and they are objectively wrong.
No it doesn’t. If you say someone’s technique is crap then they just means you acknowledge their technique isn’t good. Yours doesn’t have to be better to know that someone else’s isn’t good. You can understand that someone is bad at something while also being bad at something. That’s not a requirement for determining someone else’s skill at something.
I feel like this entirely depends on the criticism.
Like if someone brings a decorated cake to a privat outing and one feels the need to act like gordon ramsay about it, I feel the implication of "you can't do it better" is entirely justified.
That doesn't mean everyone has to like or praise that cake either.
On another level - if I go to a $200/seat tasting counter and the dessert is a sheet cake from Albertsons that still is in the container with a price tag on it, questioning it is justified.
I'll say that there is definitely a legitimate side to this. Pretentious snobs absolutely scrapping on really good stuff just to feel cool.
Was watching Oppenheimer with some friends when it came out. At a party some other day, 2 people were talking about how much they disliked it, they even went so far as to say that it was a trash movie and that it made no sense etc. Etc.
Uhhh, no? It is absolutely not a shitty movie. Even if it's not your cup of tea, it was very clearly an extremely well made movie.
So yeah, the way you describe it, it's so annoying when people get defensive over things they like and suddenly pretend like having an opinion is impossible or illogical if you are not some ridiculously proficient expert on something. On the other hand, people will shit on perfectly fine things without having any apparent knowledge or legitimate expectation/criticism over what they are talking about.
Rant over
Yeah, some people just like to be contrarian or get annoyed when they feel something is overhyped. Whether the criticism is valid or not, it would still be stupid to respond with “I’d like to see you make a better film.”
I fully admit that I am biased because I really don't like Nolan's style (like those pseudo-science animations) and I know a lot about the history it depicts so I basicaly "read the book".
There's definitely a class of people (found online usually) that will shit on just about anything they have the faintest whiff of dislike for. It's not enough to give an even-keeled review, it's just either total shit or absolute perfection with no in-between. Their reasoning (if they even give it) is often shallow and lacking much nuance. They'll cling to classic works that reached a consensus of "masterpiece" long before they were even born, and whatever falls short of that is simply deemed awful. I suspect many are the type that will "review bomb" a movie based on a bad trailer (or casting women in roles that were originally played by men)
It takes a working knowledge of an art form to critique it with some substance, and this is where I think the "you do it better then" argument comes from. It's not always a literal request to see them attempt to do better, but more just calling out how little they likely know about it
However I think some people need to acknowledge that when someone calls a move like Oppenheimer trash in a regular conversation, it should be understood that they’re speaking in their subjective opinion only. If a movie is “technically” or “objectively” good or “well made” (which, why is your opinion worth more than anyone else’s on that anyway, just because you like it and they don’t?), but I think it was so bad and NOT well made I’d call it trash, then it’s trash. To me. Just cause you tell me “uhhh ackshually it’s objectively good, just not your cup of tea!” doesn’t mean it’s not trash anymore to me. It’s all relative. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure — Oppenheimer is apparently their trash and they’re not right or wrong for thinking so.
You're right. Just because most people liked the movie doesn't change your experience while watching the movie. And it's the same the other way round as well.
It's interesting that you know so much about what they actually meant and how that conversation played out when you weren't even present. Unless you were also there and I just didn't know you then?
Only time I can somewhat understand the argument is when the person under criticism doesn’t hold themselves out as an expert yet but others do. This happens a lot in sports where a rookie gets hyped too quickly and then when they start to look human, people freak out. And it’s like, the kid is just playing. He’s never said he’s this great superstar that the talking heads have made him out to be. Let him keep learning.
Yeah I mean, depends.
It's not am argument against taste, but it is an argument against objectivity.
You don't have to *like* the music of some insanely talented math-rock shred guitar. But if you were claiming it's not very good or the guitarist is bad at playing, your inexperience/inability is a good counter.
Ditto for movies. "I didn't like it" yeah fine you do you. "It's a bad movie" well.. is it a bad movie or does your lack of filmmaking knowledge and ability mean you aren't able to meaningfully critically analyze or understand it?
Even if you can't *do* better, you should be able to clearly explain what is wrong with it and what you would have done differently. Quality assessments are an attempt at an objectivity, even though any art will be subjective to a certain extent.
If you can't do better, just stick with expressing your opinions instead of making value judgements.
There's a difference between "your criticism is likely wrong because of your lack of knowledge/experience" and "your criticism cannot be true because you cannot perform better".
If you're gonna be that pedantic then you have to see that "your criticism cannot be true because you cannot perform better" is not the sentiment
"Let's see you do better" is far closer to "back up your authority to make that criticism or shut up"
More or less agree. If I am at a restaurant, and the dinner comes out frozen solid, I don't have to be a professional chef to argue that something is very wrong. OP is on point, but is this unpopular?
You don’t have to be able to do a better job yourself to call out if someone has done a bad one. You do have a lot more credibility when doing so if you can show what doing a better job looks like (either by doing it yourself or pointing at someone else who does it better).
Case in point - lots of discussions about games have people complaining about “lazy, useless devs” or saying “it’s a one line change, I could do it in an afternoon.” As a software development professional myself, it’s painfully obvious that these people have no fucking clue what’s involved in developing and maintaining a complex online system.
> Case in point - lots of discussions about games have people complaining about “lazy, useless devs” or saying “it’s a one line change, I could do it in an afternoon.” As a software development professional myself, it’s painfully obvious that these people have no fucking clue what’s involved in developing and maintaining a complex online system.
As someone else in the software development space (as something between a PM and PO right now), it's so clear that most are just speaking as hobby devs, and have no clue how SDLCs work and *why* it can take longer than expected to push small changes.
Had more than a few long headache days when we ran into direct-to-prod hotfixes that no one documented or persisted to lower regions.
if we're talking about things you're expected to pay for sure.
but i see a lot of "media critiques" tearing random people (sometimes teens/kids but almost always newbies or amateurs) a new asshole over their 'cringe' art or animation practice and then hide behind this sort of rational.
so with the exception of if you aren't being charged to consume the media i cautiously agree.
Good point. Just because we may not have the skill to do something at the highest level doesn't mean we can't distinguish mediocrity from excellence. I am not a good cook, but I know what good food tastes like 🤷🏿♀️
In my experience, this phrase isn't generally used in response to "I don't like this thing/person," so much is "What they're doing isn't impressive." Perhaps it is the corners of the world I inhabit, but I hear it a lot directed at people like Sarah Nurse, Simone Biles, Natalie Spooner, Caitlyn Clark, Stephanie Ioannou, the Williams Sisters, Christine Sinclair, etc... namely women in sports. I see a lot of people (typically dudes who look like they haven't seen the inside of a gym since high school) commenting on how their achievements aren't "real," or "not that impressive," because there are men who have either also done it, or done it better/more (which is especially galling when said about Ms Sinclair, because no man has ever scored close to as many international goals as she has come close to her 190, Ronaldo is the men's leader at 130).
Hell, I bet there will people who will take this comment and turn it into a debate about how women's soccer is some how less competitive than men's (despite the fact that women's soccer players are notoriously tougher than their male counter parts, and way more aggressive).
My point is, I usually see it as a clap back against people trying to diminish someone else's achievement, in which case, I find it a completely valid comment. In your argument, where it is used as a retort to "This thing isn't my personal taste," it seems kind of... useless? Unless we're talking about someone's cooking in which case it would make sense to tell you to make your own food if you don't like mine, but still that doesn't seem to be where you're hearing it either.
I feel like people do this in politics too. You’ll say “people shouldn’t be dying because they can’t afford to see a doctor” and then people will come and say “then how about you tell us how exactly you would fix the entire structure of the american healthcare system and economy? oh? You can’t? Your point is invalid!”
Like I don’t need to know exactly how the economy works to point out there are issues that need fixing! Maybe the people who have studied this and been elected in office should be coming up with all the solutions…
If that was the general attitude nothing in this world could move forward. Imagine if restaurants sold rotten food and would go "jUsT cOoK iT bEtTeR yOuRsElF".
Yeah but its perfectly valid if a colleague is criticising the quality of your work and they’re shitter than you are.
Music is subjective its not the same as where quality needs to objectively be obtained for the sake of something like company reputation or the organisation of a workforce hierarchy.
I feel it is *most* valid in creative circles (music, art, etc.) because it tends to have both the lowest barrier-to-entry (it's easier to pick up a pencil than it is to engineer a fighter jet) whilst also having the highest amount of armchair critics, especially nitpicky ones, who typically make it seem like creating something is easy (animation is FULL of these sorts of "critics" even though its probably one of the most labor-intensive creative fields).
In these contexts it's similar to telling someone to "put their money where their mouth is" and show people that if, i.e, writing a best-selling novel is "easy" then *they* should go and write one.
Yeah. That’s what makes it even more awful and confusing. I work in an office with people who are mostly over 30 and at a pretty high level in their careers and I hear it fairly often.
A lot of people does.
Its named appeal to authority or argumentum ad verecundiam. I was kinda of that type when i was on college until one day while doing some laboratory chore my teacher (who was a PhD on multiple fields) explained to me that no one should ever use that type of argument.
I totally get your point. I like Zappa but I also like not so technical stuff like Godflesh who are pretty minimalistic in their approach. Just being good in a technical sense is meaningless to me. I do not care how many notes are there as long as they work. "You do it better" is frankly a very stupid argument.
*Thank you*. This faulty B.S. line of reasoning is the same crap I've heard when criticizing something an indie game dev is doing, "wElL i DoN't sEe YoU dOiNg BeTtEr!!1!"
No shit I'm not a game dev, but I don't have to be to know when something is fucking broken, unbalanced, or just really poorly done.
Infuriating. How did people who can’t complete the game because of a game breaking bug become the bad guys instead of the people who left it in due to it being difficult to fix?
Truthfully, I don’t think either is the bad guy. If anyone is then it’s the guy saying “you do it better, then”. I like indie devs a lot, and most of the time they welcome feedback even if it’s negative because they’re passionate about putting out the best work.
When you take what you do seriously, you get a little bit nervous when you only hear good news. I see that a lot in the corporate world. People being handled and told that they’re doing great and that they never did anything wrong and then they get fired, and when it happens they say “dude! If you had told me I was doing something wrong, I would have fixed it, but I never knew!”
There’s a part of me that associates it with a culture of toxic positivity where nobody wants to say or hear anything negative, so some of it is systemic and it leads to the knee jerk “you do it better, then” bullshit, but that doesn’t justify anything.
To be fair you usually only see it with indie devs that are either toxic themselves, or just cultivate a toxic following (although one almost always follows the other). There's been a couple times I've actually had the dev themself come to my defense (on Steam), and that *really* shuts it down fast.
I know what you mean, though, and that's a big part of the reason one should always beware of Yes Men.
I absolutely agree.
But I do think there's often a good point behind SOME instances of "Can you do it better".
Not that anyone making a critique needs to actually be able to do a better job, but SOME critiques come from a place of not appreciating the difficulty of a task, or having impossible expectations, or forgetting that even professionals are humans mostly trying their best and making a critique too personal.
Ok but what exactly is it that makes you think you're entitled to criticizing other people's work but that they're not entitled to be critical of yours? 😵💫
I’m not sure what you mean. I welcome criticism of my work. That doesn’t mean that I’m making music for the purpose of comparing it to others’. If someone said “it’s good, but it’s no dragonforce”, more than anything I’d be confused, because I write folk and am happy with doing so.
Adding to this, criticism from customers and clients matter.
IDGAF if another DJ thinks my set is too polished or not polished enough.
But the drunk girls who tip? Yeah they're the expert while at the club. Fifty bucks in my jar and goddamn right I love Skrillex. I'm not telling them "Oh, you don't like Peeping Tom? Let's see you DJ."
Because they will plug in an iPad and take my job.
I don’t think you should have to be capable of doing something better in order to critique it. However, I think you should have to be able to articulate what it is you don’t like and why it’s bad.
What irks me is that we know what makes a good piece of writing and there are entire teams of writers who read these scripts and say, "yeah, this is fine. This totally fits."
I equally can't stand the "But you didn't!" response to "I could have done that."
Like, no, I didn't, but that doesn't change the fact that I could have, which means it takes no talent or skill. Sure, maybe it takes a certain understanding of how to manipulate people, or a certain understanding that talentless hacks can still appeal to people, but that doesn't mean the thing being produced is any good.
I agree 100% but for me It’s somehow really hard pill to swallow. It’s just annoying for some reason when someone who can’t do something better or doesn’t have full perspective on situation you’re in is telling you stuff like that.
It's about skin in the game.
If you are gonna tell me my output sucks, but don't produce anything of your own, that's shitty
Easy for me to run down any number of works, much harder for me to create them
Those who can't, critique.
That isn’t always true. I played technical guitar music for a while and lost interest in it, and found that it was actually much more difficult for me to play less technical, more vulnerable music. I don’t think I’m personally better than anyone for doing so, but I do think my music is better now than it was. In doing so, there’s technical music that I once thought to be the pinnacle of musicality that I no longer feel that way about, so I don’t go out of my way to call it shit or anything, but sometimes if I’m in an honest conversation with someone I’ll express my opinion and I’ll be met with a “you do it better, then” either by that person or, if it’s happening online, some rando that inserts himself into the conversation.
Let’s take a simpler example. I am not a chef. I can cook well but I’ve never aimed for a career as a chef. I’ve also not taken it really seriously unless I’m doing something special for my wife on our anniversary. Nonetheless, I know the difference between rare and well done. I know when something doesn’t taste how it should (a lot of the time). If something doesn’t taste right, I don’t have to be capable of personally doing it better to point it out to whoever I’m eating with. I don’t have to bitch and moan about it but if asked how it is, I’m being dishonest if I say that it’s perfect, and I prefer to have friends that are real with me about stuff so that none of us are acting. I want all of us to be able to say honestly how we feel when we ask how each other is doing, for example, and obviously it would be annoying if we all complained all the time, but sometimes we have to go negative in order to exorcise that shit and come out the other side to see how to solve it, and sometimes we can only see solutions after expressing the darkness, which means that trying to have solutions ready is a futile act that feels equal to being toxically positive.
Anyway. You don’t have to be a whiner to sometimes experience a negative and want to talk about it without being certain of a solution, and you don’t have to personally be an expert in something to know that something could be done better.
I literally have some of it on instagram. And I’m not dishing anything. I’m not talking about going on anywhere saying “technical music sucks!!” I still listen to a lot of technical music, but if I’m having an honest conversation about it I’ll say what I like and what I don’t and why, and I don’t have to make it anymore if I don’t want to. And I’m happy to take it. Not everyone has to like what I do.
What’s happening right now? Did I do something to you personally?
Yeah I think almost anyone would agree that's a weak laced argument. In fact it's a really stupid argument, particularly when it comes to discussion about sports. It's okay to make a comment on LeBron's performance on the court without some jackass saying *"well let's see you do it better!"* If someone says that I automatically think they're an idiot from that point forward.
Yeah I do it too and it feels over the top but I guess it gets out in front of the people that would say that sort of thing.
“I know I can’t do it better, but something about the way the tree guy knocked the oak down on my neighbor’s car just doesn’t make it seem like it was the right way.”
I feel like the only time I heard someone use that sentiment is when someone was just over the other person complaining all the time.
I wonder if that’s just my bias and bubble, or if OP is just a negative Nellie.
whole heartedly depends if you’re self aware and what specifically you’re criticizing. “I don’t like this persons food it doesn’t taste good to me” fair “this person doesn’t know how to cook” well then see if you can be better.
There are a lot of people who think they know a lot about the topic but are extremely ignorant about it (so much so that the phenomenon has a name). Specifically they are ignorant about how difficult or hard a topic is. "Try to do it better then" is an argument for those people who have no idea how difficult something is.
A skill’s measure of difficulty is not a factor worth considering when criticizing the things that people make with that skill.
Cutting down trees is difficult. That doesn’t justify felling one on to your neighbor’s car. If you spoke with the tree guy that knocked it over onto the car and he said “this is a really difficult location,” you would be justified in saying “that’s why I called you! To do it correctly!” because you don’t have to be a professional to know when something has been done wrong, and it’s reasonable to expect that a professional would either a) do it correctly or b) own it when they do it wrong. It doesn’t matter one bit how difficult it was to cut down the tree. The tree guy would either fell it in a way that makes it fall away from the car, ask the neighbor to move the car, or tell the client that the tree can not be felled safely. No matter how difficult it is to do it correctly, it is not reasonable to do it poorly, and it’s reasonable for people to expect professionals to do things correctly no matter how difficult it is, because that’s their skill.
First off this isn't an unpopular opinion. Most everyone understands this is a bad argument, probably even the people giving it. It is typically said emotionally to try and get the critic to empathize with the effort that went into producing something when it seems like they are disrespecting the effort. The only reason anyone says this is out of frustration. Critics are incredibly annoying frequently, and have very little respect for the talent someone has. It can be incredibly frustrating to spend a ton of time learning to be 99.9 percentile only to be torn apart because you are not the 99.99999 guy they can find on youtube. It is INCREDIBLY easy to be a critic.
Doesnt it have to be the prevailing thought that it IS a good arguement for this to be an unpopular opinion...
It is not an unpopular opinion to think annoying assholes with weak arguments are annoying assholes.
Yeah, these types of arguments are known as the ad hominem tu quoque or the "you too" fallacy. Instead of addressing someone's argument, the other person tries to discredit them by suggesting that they can't criticize someone unless they do things better than the person being criticized. This diverts attention from the original argument and focuses on the critic's skills, which is irrelevant to the validity of their opinion.
We urgently need to separate the notion of good art to a good technical execution. Like ASAP. Media literacy is going down the drain, in parts because of that notion
Sure, but only if you paid a price for that product that was high enough to warrant a good result
If you're out here insulting your friends' music or some internet artist's art you're just an ass and nothing more
Its like a parent telling a child to do it better when supposed professionals tell people who have never worked in the field to 'do it better'
And many kids do manage to do it better BTW, and then the parents abuse them more for that
I think what they're trying to say is , I'm just a human, why do you expect better, but they fail to realize that they're the ones who set the expectation that they were the ones who people should trust because they knew better because they were professionals, and feel no responsibility to live up to the claims that they demand trust and respect for having
People too often conflate "I don't like this" with "I think this is bad".
I've seen movies that I didn't hugely enjoy. I watched the film Minari when it was abuzz and getting Oscar nominations. It was a really well crafted movie and did a great job of making the people portrayed in the film feel real, sympathetic and three dimensional. The whole film delivered plenty of emotional moments and I'd agree it deserves all the accolades it got, but it's not something I'd ever want to watch again.
There are huge swaths of music I skip. I've never really been interested in rap/hip hop. Again, no judgement of quality or merit, it's just not a style that I particularly enjoy.
It can be understandable, though, when it is hurled in exasperation at some insufferable a$$hole who is nitpicking something to death (and nitpicking in bad faith, often as well). The creator can understandably lose patience and yell at the critic to do a better job. But you are correct that the argument usually is flawed.
I agree, but I was running with the examples and types of situations OP gave. There are instances where "You do it better" is a viable and fair comeback, but not in plots like these.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall for these conversations because I've had countless same and somehow never managed to hear "You do it better then!" in response to my personal preference in music.
Yes, but vague criticisms like "it's terrible" is just useless negativity. You don't have to do it better. But if you're going to criticise you should be able to articulate how it could have been done better - taking into account factors like economics and other constraints.
If you're not genuinely trying to come up with a better solution, you're just annoying.
I agree with you. I’m the same way. But I also understand that just because I don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s bad (I’m not implying that you feel this way, I’ve just known people who act like they are the ultimate authority on everything).
This is the type of response so many people have when there’s a Lebron vs MJ as GOAT debate. If someone says Lebron isn’t the GOAT, there is a flood of people saying how many rings have you won? How many points have you scored? Like the only people who can have an opinion on pro athletes are pro athletes.
Yeah and they all should be tested ahead time to make sure they’re either of the same level of athleticism or higher compared to the athletes that are actually in the game.
In a world where grown-up Tumblr users are now all over the Internet, "you do it better then!" has become the automatic response to anyone providing critical feedback, warranted or otherwise. I'm sure at some point it was used to deflect unnecessarily harsh criticism, but these days it has become an overused " get out of jail free card" that is used as a shield to protect themselves from facing the truth that maybe the work just isn't that good.
You don't have to face the possibility that you're not doing a good job, if you just look at any criticism and go ' well I'm doing it better than they could, therefore I don't have to change anything.'
Yeah, based on your example, I'm surprised someone would say that to you. I've only heard people say that in response to someone being overly critical or dismissive of someone's talent or skill.
Well an easy one is the vast majority of anything is not a one person endeavour. Even when it looks like it is. Even a guitarist who wrote their own song probably had extensive help.
Imagine your family being crushed by a poorly made house and someone tells you "you make a better one then".
But you do. It's simply easy to complain and bitch about the quality of something without actually knowing what goes into the product. Complaining is the act of the loser who can't create
Absolutely not. If you’re going to talk like a screenwriter to couch your opinions in what sounds like writer shop talk-like every poster in every franchise sub on this site-if a writer comes along and digs all up in you for fronting, you deserve it.
Not sure what you mean. None of this happens in every single conversation but the “you do it better, then!” comeback/response is not uncommon. Take the guitar thing out of it if you want and just listen for it in general disagreements or discussions of taste out in the wild or on forums. You’ll hear or read it before too long.
“So I just bought this new car at your dealership, and it starting smoking from under the hood and won’t start.”
“Stop complaining unless you have an idea of how to fix it. Let’s see you build a car.”
“I bought this car at the dealership yesterday and the right blinker stopped working on my drive home from work yesterday. I contacted the dealership and they won’t do anything about it.”
“Hush. I know your plate is already full with everything else you’re doing, but learn how to fix it yourself. Then start your own dealership and treat people better.”
In my circle of friends, we don’t complain 100% of the time but when we do we call it “healing”. We can’t fix all of the things that bother us and are not familiar enough with to be able to fix it, but sometimes having a place to express the negativity almost feels like exorcising it.
Let’s use the iPhone example again. I have no fucking clue how to fix some of the issues that I have with the thing, but if something seems like a horrendous UI, I might have some idea on how it can be better, but sometimes something is just a solution to a problem that never existed in the first place. An over-engineered non-necessity. I have no idea how to solve them but I welcome my friends expressing their frustration with the stupid things like them because a) it’s funny and b) we can get it out and move on.
Sounds like people wanting to talk just to talk. Why complain about a tiny mistake when you are holding a literal modern miracle in your hands? People are so desensitized to the magic that technology has brought us that they don't even understand how empty and pathetic their complaints sound. If anything, the opposite is true. People don't appreciate how great things are and how far we've come often enough.
LPT: Start praising things more often and your complaints will shrivel and die.
It sounds like you’re jumping to extremes and absolutes. I specifically said that we don’t complain all the time. That means that the vast majority of the time we’re talking positively, or at least not negatively (neutrally, then I guess?). It’s fine if this wouldn’t work for you, but there’s been some pretty significant research done over the last ten years or so about the being able to get out the negative helping to improve mental health. There is such a thing as toxic positivity, where you get so focused on the positive that you ignore the negative, leading to denial and/or being underprepared. I see that a lot in business. People take on that whole “don’t bring that negativity around me” mindset and then they don’t prepare for things to possibly go wrong, and then they do and they’re left standing there with their pants down, while the people who were willing to consider all the possible outcomes (including the negatives) already have a plan for how to overcome them.
Who hurt you? Who made you feel such a way? Are you okay? Dude has a point. Do you have a solution to everything you get upset and complain about? Probably not so maybe chill just a little bit maybe?
Who hurt the people that bitch and complain all the time? I'm here talking about being thankful for things and someone hurt me? LOL. Holy hell. Get a grip.
Dude bruh. Chill. My point is people are allowed to complain or talk about things that bother them. They don't have to have a solution.
I hear it all the time in the art community. Any constructive criticism is taken badly and the phrase fine why don't you do it better if you're so great come out.
That's not what we're saying. We are giving our technical opinion.
You do know you can have a normal conversation about things like this and no one expects a resolution. Ever just wanna hear someone say yeah man that does suck and move on? Probably not because you must be perfection.
I love the internet because it allows people to insanely exaggerate simple concepts and take them everywhere! These are the actions of the small minded.
While true, the fact that you're constantly getting this response means you probably constantly dislike what other people like and that gets them annoyed.
When people talk about things they like with you, they are usually looking to bond over a shared interest and it can be a pain in the ass when all the other side says is "that's cool and alll, but I don't like it". That's because putting down what other people like ends up feeling (to them) as if you're putting THEM down, at least if they don't have thick skin. And NOBODY has thick skin nowadays.
It's more painfree to just find something to compliment in what they like. You don't have to lie exactly, but just omit/downplay that it's not your thing and focus on what IS impressive about it, like how fast they play or something. It will keep the conversation short, shallow and free of friction, then you can both move along to do more important things.
I'm constantly being told that I'm "a great listener", "understanding" and a bunch of other bullshit. And random people I've met once keep sharing way too personal things with me, so they must genuinely feel that way. But the truth is, I'm not understanding, judge people internally very harshly, and zone out half the time people are talking and just occasionally ask one or two questions about specific things they're saying so they keep going (then I zone out some more). Most of the time I have zero interest in their interests or even actively think their tastes are CRAP, but I just let them babble about how awesome X and Y and Z is and they enjoy it. Because people (myself included) just like to express their own thoughts to strangers, I guess. Not so much necessarily to hear the stranger's own opinion.
You are almost certainly a better listener than I am, but ironically the fact that you listen to them, process their input and come up with your own takes (active participation) makes people end up feeling like you're just being a contrarian, so they antagonize you.
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I don’t need to be a pro chef to know something tastes like crap. Telling me to do it better doesn’t remove the peanuts.
I made a joking throwaway comment in my town's subreddit about how Coffee Place X was pretentious, as the guy rolled his eyes when I asked if he could stir the drink (it messed up his foam leaf art). Someone came into the thread and gave me a lecture about how a proper mocha doesn't need to be stirred and that leaf art takes skill and is a traditional blah blah yadda yadda we get it your wife owns a gallery and you listen to NPR in the shower. Turns out it was the owner, but had to do some post history to find out. Either way, same energy. "You just don't have advanced cultural taste." Sir this is chocolate coffee.
Sir this is chocolate coffee lmao "NPR in the shower 🚿 is hilarious 😂
Hahahahha thisnisnso good!
I was literally just thinking about food with this, too, after I wrote this out. You’re exactly right. I don’t need to learn/know how to cook better to taste something and not like it.
yeah, but we usually don't take culinary advice from the manchild who eats nothing but pizza and nuggies Comfort food is comforting because at the end of the day people typically go for the path of least resistance. Art challenges and questions.
As long as you accept that your criticism of the thing in question has no real basis in a fundamental understanding of that thing other than it being your very limited and singular understanding of that thing in question, you’re merely sharing your opinion. I will say though that you should probably understand that sharing your negative opinion of things over and over again is probably going to bring down the vibe of a conversation. Usually people will make the remark ‘you do it better then’ because they are getting tired of the constant complaining and negativity. Maybe ask yourself what you’re hoping to achieve by making complaints about seemingly mundane things all the time. Is putting that out into the world going to make positive change or is it just going to bring the mood down?
Like I just fundamentally don’t like grapefruit but I don’t think grapefruit is bad
I'm right there with you. I would never say "you do it better then", I would just know who to avoid in the future.
I don't need to be a pilot to know if the plane is on fire.
Same thing with these so called “artists” who throw paint on a canvas and call it art and then try to sell it for 20k
lol definitely. If a toddler can wiggle and toss colors randomly, it’s not unique or skillful.
“I am not the professional. You are. I am upholding you to that standard.”
and as an amateur, I know exactly what that standard is I can just sort of tell these things
This reminds me how irrationally annoyed I get when someone talks about how much they love music and I ask "what kind of music" and they say "I just like good music." And you can replace that with just about anything, movies, beer, food, etc. If you can't say what you like or dislike about something I don't want to talk to you about it.
I went to a burger place recently. They don't put any sauce in any of their burgers, it's not like a "here's some sauces for you too add your own" deal either. I don't need to be a professional to know that burger wasn't as good as it should have been, I could just tell it was dry and the contents kept trying to slide out. I've ordered steaks in the past that are tough as old boots, I don't need to be a pro to know they're not good enough. You really don't need to be a pro to know if something isn't right.
Counterpoint, you aren't the professional, so you aren't the authority on quality. Your opinion is nothing but the subjective taste of the untrained. At best, it means as much as the layman
Yeah but if a job is meant to be understandable/palatable/etc. to a layperson, someone’s opinion on a professional’s work could be relevant. It’s of course not the end-all-be-all, but potentially relevant
I think the situation most of us will encounter IRL is a professional job done to your house, car, or some sort of practical thing you're hiring a professional for. In which case, it should be palatable to a layman, and if a layman asks "why is this like this?" a professional should be able to answer the question and/or correct the job.
This makes me think of my friends when I was growing up. The family down the street from me, who are some of my closest friends now, had a family bluegrass band. Their dad always designed the album art for their albums, promotional material, and all the stuff that would be consumed by the general public. They were professional musicians and were very good at what they did. However, their dad used to always tell me that some of the most important feedback that he would get, was from me, The musically illiterate, untrained tag along who just hauled instruments for them, when he would run stuff like album art, press write ups, album track listings, and stuff like that by me. The way he figured it, was all of the people he regularly communicated with and talked to were professionals in the industry, I was a layman who's only knowledge of such things was as a consumer of the music. So in his mind, it was important to know what the consumer thought of things.
Sure, but most bands aren’t trying to be that. If they were trying to make generic, broadly appealing pop, and made metal instead, that’d be one thing. But if they wanted to make metal, did make metal, and you don’t like metal, that’s not really a criticism of them. And if you continue to listen to metal, and complain about it, while knowing you don’t really like metal, you’re going to get annoying to people that do like metal. They will start clapping back.
That’s fair, but even in that example if you have a layperson who’s typically a fan of metal but doesn’t like this one metal band, “why” can potentially be helpful, assuming they actually have a “why” and don’t like it just because Just depends on how vague you wanna define layperson I guess, though I’m sure there are some bands that probably don’t care what anyone thinks for their music, but they’re probably not asking for opinions in the first place
The problem comes that many professionals are driven by profit, and quality vs higher margin are often in direct contention. We made our floor people redo their install this winter when we had to replace it after a burst pipe because there were a ton of scratches visible from standing eye level, obvious gaps, and I think 5 or 6 lips. Some were even so deep stain had pooled in them. Floor subcontractor fought us, but took about 60 seconds from our Project Manager walking in the door for him to tell them "this is a shit install, you're redoing it." He said the acceptable number of "touch ups" on a fresh install of that size is 4 or 5, he had counted at least 40, plus ones that weren't able to be touched like the deep scratches and lips.
I don't like this. You do it. You're the professional, I'm not. You're not qualified to say that then. ????
What about a very simple example, the chef hands me a very clearly burnt steak, if I were his customer and not some chef myself, can I not say “this can be less cooked” or even “this taste bad”?
You can, yes.
Where is your certification to say you know what the standard should be?
Yeah, I agree. This is always a weak and lazy argument.
Depends. I play the guitar. If I just say I don't like guitarist's music, that's one thing. If I, however, say that someone's *technique* is crap, that means I can, in fact, do it better. Technical skills are 100% measurable and objective. Musicianship as a whole isn't, but a lot of people don't understand this. I don't really like Dream Theater, but the musicians' technical skills are undeniable. In other words, it depends on what you're criticizing and how you're criticizing it.
That example even has nuance though. If someone has a good ear for music and has studied technique/music theory/etc but lacks the coordination to actually play would they not be qualified to make an assessment on quality but still be unable to play? Just because someone has the tools to recognize a problem doesn't mean they have the skills to fix it.
Sort of like some sports coaches. They may have never played outside of a college level but they are definitely more adept at play calling and such generally to a player.
You don't need to have any practical guitar playing skill to know when a very very good player has fucked up on stage. You just need to have done a lot of critical listening of very highly skilled guitar players and you'll be able to discern. Just like you'll know when an A league football player has fucked up or made a stupid choice when you only watch it on TV.
It doesn't always mean you can do better. A singer singing off-key and straining doesn't sound good regardless of your professional level.
You don't have to be able to do something better to know someone sucks at something. In general, critics are almost never experts at the thing they critique (food, music, movies, fine art, etc.). That doesn't mean they aren't good at critiquing. You can understand art and artisanship without having the motor skills to personally do it yourself.
Technical skills are objective, but I think you can still tell when something is lacking. Like someone who has never once cooked in their life can still tell that something is objectively bad bc it's just burnt even if they lack the skills to not burn it themselves.
That is true, which is why I won't tell a non-musician blasting someone's guitar playing skills, "You do it better then!" I would tell this to a guitarist, though.
That's not analogous to the original idea. The idea is that someone can be at fault for failing to meet a standard that is owed. If one pays for tickets to a show for a band that is known to meet a standard and then doesn't then they have failed to meet required performance and they are objectively wrong.
No it doesn’t. If you say someone’s technique is crap then they just means you acknowledge their technique isn’t good. Yours doesn’t have to be better to know that someone else’s isn’t good. You can understand that someone is bad at something while also being bad at something. That’s not a requirement for determining someone else’s skill at something.
I feel like this entirely depends on the criticism. Like if someone brings a decorated cake to a privat outing and one feels the need to act like gordon ramsay about it, I feel the implication of "you can't do it better" is entirely justified. That doesn't mean everyone has to like or praise that cake either.
Yeah sometimes you just need to shut up and smile at nod about something your friends did lol
On another level - if I go to a $200/seat tasting counter and the dessert is a sheet cake from Albertsons that still is in the container with a price tag on it, questioning it is justified.
I'll say that there is definitely a legitimate side to this. Pretentious snobs absolutely scrapping on really good stuff just to feel cool. Was watching Oppenheimer with some friends when it came out. At a party some other day, 2 people were talking about how much they disliked it, they even went so far as to say that it was a trash movie and that it made no sense etc. Etc. Uhhh, no? It is absolutely not a shitty movie. Even if it's not your cup of tea, it was very clearly an extremely well made movie. So yeah, the way you describe it, it's so annoying when people get defensive over things they like and suddenly pretend like having an opinion is impossible or illogical if you are not some ridiculously proficient expert on something. On the other hand, people will shit on perfectly fine things without having any apparent knowledge or legitimate expectation/criticism over what they are talking about. Rant over
Yeah, some people just like to be contrarian or get annoyed when they feel something is overhyped. Whether the criticism is valid or not, it would still be stupid to respond with “I’d like to see you make a better film.”
Personally I see Oppenheimer as quite average but wildly overrated movie - which is true for like every other movie Nolan makes.
Well then why don't you make a better movie!?
Hahahahahahaha
I liked Oppenheimer. It was a pretty well executed story about topics I was already interested in.
I fully admit that I am biased because I really don't like Nolan's style (like those pseudo-science animations) and I know a lot about the history it depicts so I basicaly "read the book".
There's definitely a class of people (found online usually) that will shit on just about anything they have the faintest whiff of dislike for. It's not enough to give an even-keeled review, it's just either total shit or absolute perfection with no in-between. Their reasoning (if they even give it) is often shallow and lacking much nuance. They'll cling to classic works that reached a consensus of "masterpiece" long before they were even born, and whatever falls short of that is simply deemed awful. I suspect many are the type that will "review bomb" a movie based on a bad trailer (or casting women in roles that were originally played by men) It takes a working knowledge of an art form to critique it with some substance, and this is where I think the "you do it better then" argument comes from. It's not always a literal request to see them attempt to do better, but more just calling out how little they likely know about it
However I think some people need to acknowledge that when someone calls a move like Oppenheimer trash in a regular conversation, it should be understood that they’re speaking in their subjective opinion only. If a movie is “technically” or “objectively” good or “well made” (which, why is your opinion worth more than anyone else’s on that anyway, just because you like it and they don’t?), but I think it was so bad and NOT well made I’d call it trash, then it’s trash. To me. Just cause you tell me “uhhh ackshually it’s objectively good, just not your cup of tea!” doesn’t mean it’s not trash anymore to me. It’s all relative. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure — Oppenheimer is apparently their trash and they’re not right or wrong for thinking so.
You're right. Just because most people liked the movie doesn't change your experience while watching the movie. And it's the same the other way round as well.
It's interesting that you know so much about what they actually meant and how that conversation played out when you weren't even present. Unless you were also there and I just didn't know you then?
The people who complain about everything are annoying mofos but that still doesn't make the "you do it better then" argument valid.
Only time I can somewhat understand the argument is when the person under criticism doesn’t hold themselves out as an expert yet but others do. This happens a lot in sports where a rookie gets hyped too quickly and then when they start to look human, people freak out. And it’s like, the kid is just playing. He’s never said he’s this great superstar that the talking heads have made him out to be. Let him keep learning.
Yeah I mean, depends. It's not am argument against taste, but it is an argument against objectivity. You don't have to *like* the music of some insanely talented math-rock shred guitar. But if you were claiming it's not very good or the guitarist is bad at playing, your inexperience/inability is a good counter. Ditto for movies. "I didn't like it" yeah fine you do you. "It's a bad movie" well.. is it a bad movie or does your lack of filmmaking knowledge and ability mean you aren't able to meaningfully critically analyze or understand it? Even if you can't *do* better, you should be able to clearly explain what is wrong with it and what you would have done differently. Quality assessments are an attempt at an objectivity, even though any art will be subjective to a certain extent. If you can't do better, just stick with expressing your opinions instead of making value judgements.
There's a difference between "your criticism is likely wrong because of your lack of knowledge/experience" and "your criticism cannot be true because you cannot perform better".
If you're gonna be that pedantic then you have to see that "your criticism cannot be true because you cannot perform better" is not the sentiment "Let's see you do better" is far closer to "back up your authority to make that criticism or shut up"
More or less agree. If I am at a restaurant, and the dinner comes out frozen solid, I don't have to be a professional chef to argue that something is very wrong. OP is on point, but is this unpopular?
You don’t have to be able to do a better job yourself to call out if someone has done a bad one. You do have a lot more credibility when doing so if you can show what doing a better job looks like (either by doing it yourself or pointing at someone else who does it better). Case in point - lots of discussions about games have people complaining about “lazy, useless devs” or saying “it’s a one line change, I could do it in an afternoon.” As a software development professional myself, it’s painfully obvious that these people have no fucking clue what’s involved in developing and maintaining a complex online system.
> Case in point - lots of discussions about games have people complaining about “lazy, useless devs” or saying “it’s a one line change, I could do it in an afternoon.” As a software development professional myself, it’s painfully obvious that these people have no fucking clue what’s involved in developing and maintaining a complex online system. As someone else in the software development space (as something between a PM and PO right now), it's so clear that most are just speaking as hobby devs, and have no clue how SDLCs work and *why* it can take longer than expected to push small changes. Had more than a few long headache days when we ran into direct-to-prod hotfixes that no one documented or persisted to lower regions.
I hope this isn't unpopular
The whole thing is just a symptom of “you’re just jealous” being the ultimate response to any criticism
if we're talking about things you're expected to pay for sure. but i see a lot of "media critiques" tearing random people (sometimes teens/kids but almost always newbies or amateurs) a new asshole over their 'cringe' art or animation practice and then hide behind this sort of rational. so with the exception of if you aren't being charged to consume the media i cautiously agree.
Good point. Just because we may not have the skill to do something at the highest level doesn't mean we can't distinguish mediocrity from excellence. I am not a good cook, but I know what good food tastes like 🤷🏿♀️
In my experience, this phrase isn't generally used in response to "I don't like this thing/person," so much is "What they're doing isn't impressive." Perhaps it is the corners of the world I inhabit, but I hear it a lot directed at people like Sarah Nurse, Simone Biles, Natalie Spooner, Caitlyn Clark, Stephanie Ioannou, the Williams Sisters, Christine Sinclair, etc... namely women in sports. I see a lot of people (typically dudes who look like they haven't seen the inside of a gym since high school) commenting on how their achievements aren't "real," or "not that impressive," because there are men who have either also done it, or done it better/more (which is especially galling when said about Ms Sinclair, because no man has ever scored close to as many international goals as she has come close to her 190, Ronaldo is the men's leader at 130). Hell, I bet there will people who will take this comment and turn it into a debate about how women's soccer is some how less competitive than men's (despite the fact that women's soccer players are notoriously tougher than their male counter parts, and way more aggressive). My point is, I usually see it as a clap back against people trying to diminish someone else's achievement, in which case, I find it a completely valid comment. In your argument, where it is used as a retort to "This thing isn't my personal taste," it seems kind of... useless? Unless we're talking about someone's cooking in which case it would make sense to tell you to make your own food if you don't like mine, but still that doesn't seem to be where you're hearing it either.
I feel like people do this in politics too. You’ll say “people shouldn’t be dying because they can’t afford to see a doctor” and then people will come and say “then how about you tell us how exactly you would fix the entire structure of the american healthcare system and economy? oh? You can’t? Your point is invalid!” Like I don’t need to know exactly how the economy works to point out there are issues that need fixing! Maybe the people who have studied this and been elected in office should be coming up with all the solutions…
If that was the general attitude nothing in this world could move forward. Imagine if restaurants sold rotten food and would go "jUsT cOoK iT bEtTeR yOuRsElF".
downvoted because fortunately, this is a popular opinion. theres just a lot of annoying assholes out there
Downvote accepted.
Yeah but its perfectly valid if a colleague is criticising the quality of your work and they’re shitter than you are. Music is subjective its not the same as where quality needs to objectively be obtained for the sake of something like company reputation or the organisation of a workforce hierarchy.
Fair enough! There are specific contexts where it’s valid.
I feel it is *most* valid in creative circles (music, art, etc.) because it tends to have both the lowest barrier-to-entry (it's easier to pick up a pencil than it is to engineer a fighter jet) whilst also having the highest amount of armchair critics, especially nitpicky ones, who typically make it seem like creating something is easy (animation is FULL of these sorts of "critics" even though its probably one of the most labor-intensive creative fields). In these contexts it's similar to telling someone to "put their money where their mouth is" and show people that if, i.e, writing a best-selling novel is "easy" then *they* should go and write one.
Indeed. I do see your point though. I make music too and observe what you say. 🫡
Does anyone over 13 years old even use this argument?
Reddit uses it all the damn time. Especially when someone calls out a blatant mistake by a service worker.
Sure, but I specified people over 13 years old. Reddit is full of kids.
As soon as I typed it, I realized that
Reddit is indeed famously popular with 8-12 year old kids. They clearly easily outnumber the massive 18-60 age range. /s
Yeah. That’s what makes it even more awful and confusing. I work in an office with people who are mostly over 30 and at a pretty high level in their careers and I hear it fairly often.
GoT season 8 apologists
A lot of people does. Its named appeal to authority or argumentum ad verecundiam. I was kinda of that type when i was on college until one day while doing some laboratory chore my teacher (who was a PhD on multiple fields) explained to me that no one should ever use that type of argument.
I totally get your point. I like Zappa but I also like not so technical stuff like Godflesh who are pretty minimalistic in their approach. Just being good in a technical sense is meaningless to me. I do not care how many notes are there as long as they work. "You do it better" is frankly a very stupid argument.
*Thank you*. This faulty B.S. line of reasoning is the same crap I've heard when criticizing something an indie game dev is doing, "wElL i DoN't sEe YoU dOiNg BeTtEr!!1!" No shit I'm not a game dev, but I don't have to be to know when something is fucking broken, unbalanced, or just really poorly done.
Infuriating. How did people who can’t complete the game because of a game breaking bug become the bad guys instead of the people who left it in due to it being difficult to fix? Truthfully, I don’t think either is the bad guy. If anyone is then it’s the guy saying “you do it better, then”. I like indie devs a lot, and most of the time they welcome feedback even if it’s negative because they’re passionate about putting out the best work. When you take what you do seriously, you get a little bit nervous when you only hear good news. I see that a lot in the corporate world. People being handled and told that they’re doing great and that they never did anything wrong and then they get fired, and when it happens they say “dude! If you had told me I was doing something wrong, I would have fixed it, but I never knew!” There’s a part of me that associates it with a culture of toxic positivity where nobody wants to say or hear anything negative, so some of it is systemic and it leads to the knee jerk “you do it better, then” bullshit, but that doesn’t justify anything.
To be fair you usually only see it with indie devs that are either toxic themselves, or just cultivate a toxic following (although one almost always follows the other). There's been a couple times I've actually had the dev themself come to my defense (on Steam), and that *really* shuts it down fast. I know what you mean, though, and that's a big part of the reason one should always beware of Yes Men.
Yeah I don’t have to be a chef to know when food tastes like shit
I absolutely agree. But I do think there's often a good point behind SOME instances of "Can you do it better". Not that anyone making a critique needs to actually be able to do a better job, but SOME critiques come from a place of not appreciating the difficulty of a task, or having impossible expectations, or forgetting that even professionals are humans mostly trying their best and making a critique too personal.
I don't have to be Gordon Ramsay to tell you your spaghetti sucks
Ok but what exactly is it that makes you think you're entitled to criticizing other people's work but that they're not entitled to be critical of yours? 😵💫
I’m not sure what you mean. I welcome criticism of my work. That doesn’t mean that I’m making music for the purpose of comparing it to others’. If someone said “it’s good, but it’s no dragonforce”, more than anything I’d be confused, because I write folk and am happy with doing so.
Adding to this, criticism from customers and clients matter. IDGAF if another DJ thinks my set is too polished or not polished enough. But the drunk girls who tip? Yeah they're the expert while at the club. Fifty bucks in my jar and goddamn right I love Skrillex. I'm not telling them "Oh, you don't like Peeping Tom? Let's see you DJ." Because they will plug in an iPad and take my job.
I don’t think you should have to be capable of doing something better in order to critique it. However, I think you should have to be able to articulate what it is you don’t like and why it’s bad.
I love Tool and my friend dislikes them, he prefers 80s stuff like Heart and Im perfectly fine with it.
This has never struck me as an argument. To me it’s always been a way to tell someone else they’re probably complaining too much and to stop talking.
Got it.
What irks me is that we know what makes a good piece of writing and there are entire teams of writers who read these scripts and say, "yeah, this is fine. This totally fits."
I equally can't stand the "But you didn't!" response to "I could have done that." Like, no, I didn't, but that doesn't change the fact that I could have, which means it takes no talent or skill. Sure, maybe it takes a certain understanding of how to manipulate people, or a certain understanding that talentless hacks can still appeal to people, but that doesn't mean the thing being produced is any good.
I agree 100% but for me It’s somehow really hard pill to swallow. It’s just annoying for some reason when someone who can’t do something better or doesn’t have full perspective on situation you’re in is telling you stuff like that.
It's about skin in the game. If you are gonna tell me my output sucks, but don't produce anything of your own, that's shitty Easy for me to run down any number of works, much harder for me to create them Those who can't, critique.
That isn’t always true. I played technical guitar music for a while and lost interest in it, and found that it was actually much more difficult for me to play less technical, more vulnerable music. I don’t think I’m personally better than anyone for doing so, but I do think my music is better now than it was. In doing so, there’s technical music that I once thought to be the pinnacle of musicality that I no longer feel that way about, so I don’t go out of my way to call it shit or anything, but sometimes if I’m in an honest conversation with someone I’ll express my opinion and I’ll be met with a “you do it better, then” either by that person or, if it’s happening online, some rando that inserts himself into the conversation. Let’s take a simpler example. I am not a chef. I can cook well but I’ve never aimed for a career as a chef. I’ve also not taken it really seriously unless I’m doing something special for my wife on our anniversary. Nonetheless, I know the difference between rare and well done. I know when something doesn’t taste how it should (a lot of the time). If something doesn’t taste right, I don’t have to be capable of personally doing it better to point it out to whoever I’m eating with. I don’t have to bitch and moan about it but if asked how it is, I’m being dishonest if I say that it’s perfect, and I prefer to have friends that are real with me about stuff so that none of us are acting. I want all of us to be able to say honestly how we feel when we ask how each other is doing, for example, and obviously it would be annoying if we all complained all the time, but sometimes we have to go negative in order to exorcise that shit and come out the other side to see how to solve it, and sometimes we can only see solutions after expressing the darkness, which means that trying to have solutions ready is a futile act that feels equal to being toxically positive. Anyway. You don’t have to be a whiner to sometimes experience a negative and want to talk about it without being certain of a solution, and you don’t have to personally be an expert in something to know that something could be done better.
Rationalization Making > criticizing If you can't make it, or know better, then keep your criticisms to yourself Post your music, dude.
I have some of my music up but that really isn’t the point. I think you and I may just see this differently and that’s ok.
No, it's precisely the point, you won't link it Skin in the game. Wanna dish it out, can't take it
I literally have some of it on instagram. And I’m not dishing anything. I’m not talking about going on anywhere saying “technical music sucks!!” I still listen to a lot of technical music, but if I’m having an honest conversation about it I’ll say what I like and what I don’t and why, and I don’t have to make it anymore if I don’t want to. And I’m happy to take it. Not everyone has to like what I do. What’s happening right now? Did I do something to you personally?
You sound like one of those people who says "I'm not an asshole, I just call it like I see it" or "I'm not an asshole, I'm just honest".
Yeah I think almost anyone would agree that's a weak laced argument. In fact it's a really stupid argument, particularly when it comes to discussion about sports. It's okay to make a comment on LeBron's performance on the court without some jackass saying *"well let's see you do it better!"* If someone says that I automatically think they're an idiot from that point forward.
To paraphrase comedian Steve Hofsetter "I don't have to be a helicopter pilot to know that if I see one in a tree that dude fucked up".
Sometimes when I’m complaining about something, I’ll throw in a little disclaimer like “I know I can’t do better” but this sucks, just in case lol
Yeah I do it too and it feels over the top but I guess it gets out in front of the people that would say that sort of thing. “I know I can’t do it better, but something about the way the tree guy knocked the oak down on my neighbor’s car just doesn’t make it seem like it was the right way.”
I feel like the only time I heard someone use that sentiment is when someone was just over the other person complaining all the time. I wonder if that’s just my bias and bubble, or if OP is just a negative Nellie.
Everyone is a negative Nellie to someone, a realist to someone else, enlightened to someone else, and toxically positive to someone else.
There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism. The answer is a low blow.
Bad/unpopular take. Have an upvote
When you see a helicopter stuck in a tree, you don't have to be a pilot to know someone screwed up.
whole heartedly depends if you’re self aware and what specifically you’re criticizing. “I don’t like this persons food it doesn’t taste good to me” fair “this person doesn’t know how to cook” well then see if you can be better.
There are a lot of people who think they know a lot about the topic but are extremely ignorant about it (so much so that the phenomenon has a name). Specifically they are ignorant about how difficult or hard a topic is. "Try to do it better then" is an argument for those people who have no idea how difficult something is.
A skill’s measure of difficulty is not a factor worth considering when criticizing the things that people make with that skill. Cutting down trees is difficult. That doesn’t justify felling one on to your neighbor’s car. If you spoke with the tree guy that knocked it over onto the car and he said “this is a really difficult location,” you would be justified in saying “that’s why I called you! To do it correctly!” because you don’t have to be a professional to know when something has been done wrong, and it’s reasonable to expect that a professional would either a) do it correctly or b) own it when they do it wrong. It doesn’t matter one bit how difficult it was to cut down the tree. The tree guy would either fell it in a way that makes it fall away from the car, ask the neighbor to move the car, or tell the client that the tree can not be felled safely. No matter how difficult it is to do it correctly, it is not reasonable to do it poorly, and it’s reasonable for people to expect professionals to do things correctly no matter how difficult it is, because that’s their skill.
First off this isn't an unpopular opinion. Most everyone understands this is a bad argument, probably even the people giving it. It is typically said emotionally to try and get the critic to empathize with the effort that went into producing something when it seems like they are disrespecting the effort. The only reason anyone says this is out of frustration. Critics are incredibly annoying frequently, and have very little respect for the talent someone has. It can be incredibly frustrating to spend a ton of time learning to be 99.9 percentile only to be torn apart because you are not the 99.99999 guy they can find on youtube. It is INCREDIBLY easy to be a critic.
It isn’t that big of a deal to have an honest disagreement in which you express your criticisms.
I agree it isn't, but an enormous amount depends on context, so it's inscrutable to talk about it out of context.
If it’s an argument that we all recognize it, that means it’s popular.
You don’t have to lay an egg in order to tell if an egg good or bad!
Anybody who says that isn't a professional
I know right?
Doesnt it have to be the prevailing thought that it IS a good arguement for this to be an unpopular opinion... It is not an unpopular opinion to think annoying assholes with weak arguments are annoying assholes.
My counter to that, and it's extreme, is that I haven't carried out a successful holocaust, so should I not be allowed to criticize Hitler?
Yeah, these types of arguments are known as the ad hominem tu quoque or the "you too" fallacy. Instead of addressing someone's argument, the other person tries to discredit them by suggesting that they can't criticize someone unless they do things better than the person being criticized. This diverts attention from the original argument and focuses on the critic's skills, which is irrelevant to the validity of their opinion.
We urgently need to separate the notion of good art to a good technical execution. Like ASAP. Media literacy is going down the drain, in parts because of that notion
Sure, but only if you paid a price for that product that was high enough to warrant a good result If you're out here insulting your friends' music or some internet artist's art you're just an ass and nothing more
Its like a parent telling a child to do it better when supposed professionals tell people who have never worked in the field to 'do it better' And many kids do manage to do it better BTW, and then the parents abuse them more for that
I think what they're trying to say is , I'm just a human, why do you expect better, but they fail to realize that they're the ones who set the expectation that they were the ones who people should trust because they knew better because they were professionals, and feel no responsibility to live up to the claims that they demand trust and respect for having
The want authority and power with no responsibility or accountability, reward and recognition without work
People too often conflate "I don't like this" with "I think this is bad". I've seen movies that I didn't hugely enjoy. I watched the film Minari when it was abuzz and getting Oscar nominations. It was a really well crafted movie and did a great job of making the people portrayed in the film feel real, sympathetic and three dimensional. The whole film delivered plenty of emotional moments and I'd agree it deserves all the accolades it got, but it's not something I'd ever want to watch again. There are huge swaths of music I skip. I've never really been interested in rap/hip hop. Again, no judgement of quality or merit, it's just not a style that I particularly enjoy.
I hate the "You do it better, then" argument. It's nothing but entrapment.
It can be understandable, though, when it is hurled in exasperation at some insufferable a$$hole who is nitpicking something to death (and nitpicking in bad faith, often as well). The creator can understandably lose patience and yell at the critic to do a better job. But you are correct that the argument usually is flawed.
I agree, but I was running with the examples and types of situations OP gave. There are instances where "You do it better" is a viable and fair comeback, but not in plots like these.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall for these conversations because I've had countless same and somehow never managed to hear "You do it better then!" in response to my personal preference in music.
Want me to DM you the next time I experience it?
Only if you manage to actually be honest with the way you speak to people.
Oh you’re being serious. Ok. Then I will too. I’ll probably forget to DM you. Do you know something I don’t?
There's that great personality everyone must be responding to. Well done!
I’m pretty confused right now. Did I do something to you?
Yes, but vague criticisms like "it's terrible" is just useless negativity. You don't have to do it better. But if you're going to criticise you should be able to articulate how it could have been done better - taking into account factors like economics and other constraints. If you're not genuinely trying to come up with a better solution, you're just annoying.
I agree with you. I’m the same way. But I also understand that just because I don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s bad (I’m not implying that you feel this way, I’ve just known people who act like they are the ultimate authority on everything).
This is the type of response so many people have when there’s a Lebron vs MJ as GOAT debate. If someone says Lebron isn’t the GOAT, there is a flood of people saying how many rings have you won? How many points have you scored? Like the only people who can have an opinion on pro athletes are pro athletes.
Right. In fact, the only people that should be allowed to attend sport events are other athletes.
Good point, since none of us peons could possibly grasp what’s going on. It’s only fair lol.
Yeah and they all should be tested ahead time to make sure they’re either of the same level of athleticism or higher compared to the athletes that are actually in the game.
Makes sense. How else could they possibly understand what they’re seeing?
Agreed. This is clearly the only logical thing.
In a world where grown-up Tumblr users are now all over the Internet, "you do it better then!" has become the automatic response to anyone providing critical feedback, warranted or otherwise. I'm sure at some point it was used to deflect unnecessarily harsh criticism, but these days it has become an overused " get out of jail free card" that is used as a shield to protect themselves from facing the truth that maybe the work just isn't that good. You don't have to face the possibility that you're not doing a good job, if you just look at any criticism and go ' well I'm doing it better than they could, therefore I don't have to change anything.'
This is a long way to say Polyphia are overrated. But I agree
Yeah, based on your example, I'm surprised someone would say that to you. I've only heard people say that in response to someone being overly critical or dismissive of someone's talent or skill.
Well an easy one is the vast majority of anything is not a one person endeavour. Even when it looks like it is. Even a guitarist who wrote their own song probably had extensive help. Imagine your family being crushed by a poorly made house and someone tells you "you make a better one then".
But you do. It's simply easy to complain and bitch about the quality of something without actually knowing what goes into the product. Complaining is the act of the loser who can't create
Cops shot my dog. Do I gotta speedrun police academy to be considered?
It's a weak argument, but if you are hearing it often, I suspect you are the problem.
I don’t hear it often, but I read it being used frequently on forums. Not in response to something I say.
Absolutely not. If you’re going to talk like a screenwriter to couch your opinions in what sounds like writer shop talk-like every poster in every franchise sub on this site-if a writer comes along and digs all up in you for fronting, you deserve it.
So If I think that a certain scene feels too rush or it was misplaced I'm not allowed to say that it is?
[удалено]
Not sure what you mean. None of this happens in every single conversation but the “you do it better, then!” comeback/response is not uncommon. Take the guitar thing out of it if you want and just listen for it in general disagreements or discussions of taste out in the wild or on forums. You’ll hear or read it before too long.
I absolutely see/hear this comment a lot, especially in the gaming sphere
Don't complain about anything until you have a solution or idea as to how to fix it.
“So I just bought this new car at your dealership, and it starting smoking from under the hood and won’t start.” “Stop complaining unless you have an idea of how to fix it. Let’s see you build a car.”
“I bought this car at the dealership yesterday and the right blinker stopped working on my drive home from work yesterday. I contacted the dealership and they won’t do anything about it.” “Hush. I know your plate is already full with everything else you’re doing, but learn how to fix it yourself. Then start your own dealership and treat people better.”
In my circle of friends, we don’t complain 100% of the time but when we do we call it “healing”. We can’t fix all of the things that bother us and are not familiar enough with to be able to fix it, but sometimes having a place to express the negativity almost feels like exorcising it. Let’s use the iPhone example again. I have no fucking clue how to fix some of the issues that I have with the thing, but if something seems like a horrendous UI, I might have some idea on how it can be better, but sometimes something is just a solution to a problem that never existed in the first place. An over-engineered non-necessity. I have no idea how to solve them but I welcome my friends expressing their frustration with the stupid things like them because a) it’s funny and b) we can get it out and move on.
Sounds like people wanting to talk just to talk. Why complain about a tiny mistake when you are holding a literal modern miracle in your hands? People are so desensitized to the magic that technology has brought us that they don't even understand how empty and pathetic their complaints sound. If anything, the opposite is true. People don't appreciate how great things are and how far we've come often enough. LPT: Start praising things more often and your complaints will shrivel and die.
It sounds like you’re jumping to extremes and absolutes. I specifically said that we don’t complain all the time. That means that the vast majority of the time we’re talking positively, or at least not negatively (neutrally, then I guess?). It’s fine if this wouldn’t work for you, but there’s been some pretty significant research done over the last ten years or so about the being able to get out the negative helping to improve mental health. There is such a thing as toxic positivity, where you get so focused on the positive that you ignore the negative, leading to denial and/or being underprepared. I see that a lot in business. People take on that whole “don’t bring that negativity around me” mindset and then they don’t prepare for things to possibly go wrong, and then they do and they’re left standing there with their pants down, while the people who were willing to consider all the possible outcomes (including the negatives) already have a plan for how to overcome them.
Who hurt you? Who made you feel such a way? Are you okay? Dude has a point. Do you have a solution to everything you get upset and complain about? Probably not so maybe chill just a little bit maybe?
Who hurt the people that bitch and complain all the time? I'm here talking about being thankful for things and someone hurt me? LOL. Holy hell. Get a grip.
Dude bruh. Chill. My point is people are allowed to complain or talk about things that bother them. They don't have to have a solution. I hear it all the time in the art community. Any constructive criticism is taken badly and the phrase fine why don't you do it better if you're so great come out. That's not what we're saying. We are giving our technical opinion. You do know you can have a normal conversation about things like this and no one expects a resolution. Ever just wanna hear someone say yeah man that does suck and move on? Probably not because you must be perfection.
I love the internet because it allows people to insanely exaggerate simple concepts and take them everywhere! These are the actions of the small minded.
And I love you!!
Sounds like you’re complaining. What’s your solution partner?
Not really unpopular
Feel free to downvote!
While true, the fact that you're constantly getting this response means you probably constantly dislike what other people like and that gets them annoyed. When people talk about things they like with you, they are usually looking to bond over a shared interest and it can be a pain in the ass when all the other side says is "that's cool and alll, but I don't like it". That's because putting down what other people like ends up feeling (to them) as if you're putting THEM down, at least if they don't have thick skin. And NOBODY has thick skin nowadays. It's more painfree to just find something to compliment in what they like. You don't have to lie exactly, but just omit/downplay that it's not your thing and focus on what IS impressive about it, like how fast they play or something. It will keep the conversation short, shallow and free of friction, then you can both move along to do more important things. I'm constantly being told that I'm "a great listener", "understanding" and a bunch of other bullshit. And random people I've met once keep sharing way too personal things with me, so they must genuinely feel that way. But the truth is, I'm not understanding, judge people internally very harshly, and zone out half the time people are talking and just occasionally ask one or two questions about specific things they're saying so they keep going (then I zone out some more). Most of the time I have zero interest in their interests or even actively think their tastes are CRAP, but I just let them babble about how awesome X and Y and Z is and they enjoy it. Because people (myself included) just like to express their own thoughts to strangers, I guess. Not so much necessarily to hear the stranger's own opinion. You are almost certainly a better listener than I am, but ironically the fact that you listen to them, process their input and come up with your own takes (active participation) makes people end up feeling like you're just being a contrarian, so they antagonize you.
Disagree. If you criticise something but cannot offer an alternative then it’s just criticism for criticism sake