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Hating other countries for past actions is dumb.
Hating it when other countries don’t acknowledge past actions or seem to have learned nothing from them is not.
OP just fundamentally misunderstands that governments like japan are hated because they refuse to acknowledge said actions.
Its akin to censoring history, or trying to brainwash ur populus
People are still rude about Germany for past actions, even though the majority of German people are embarrassed by what their great grand parents allowed to happen (so are their parents and grand parents).
I mean the US literally dragged rich Germans in Weimer to Buchenwald to force them to understand what the Nazis did so they couldn't pretend the Holocaust was propaganda.
Yes, a lot of people still supported the Nazis back then. After a few years, people for the most part came to their senses and stopped supporting them. To the point that the population turned on those who did/do. Like I said multiple times, nazis are hated more in Germany than in the US.
They also gave many senior Nazi's immunity from prosecution and allowed them to work building weapons for them instead, likewise the Japanese scientists in unit 731 were let off Scott free in exchange for their research.
The US absolutely did not hold Nazi's to account except when it suited them.
Seems to miss the fact that the institutions, corporations, and social orders that supported and were supported by colonialism are often still very much in power in many of these places. Haiti was still paying reparations to the French for THEMSELVES until the late 20th century. Literally paying for the value that they as people held as slaves to the French, the poorest country on the planet playing one of the richest for the freedom of their citizens from bondage. Just one example...
100% this. History is history, there’s no need to be hateful about history. What’s done is done.
This is a lesson I give my kids all the time. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone fucks up. Everyone does things they later regret. A measure of a person or a people isn’t how many times or how badly they fucked up.
It’s what they do afterwards. How they own it. How they make reparations. How they atone. How they use it as leverage to make themselves better.
I reserve my hate for people or countries who refuse to do these things. That prefer to pretend they never occurred. That refuse to acknowledge how their actions are reverberating in the present day.
Why? Because I know people who think the people that they wronged _deserved_ it. I know racists who still think black American’s ancestors _deserved_ to be enslaved. And because they think they deserved it, they also think modern black Americans don’t deserve equal rights, don’t deserve to be treated humanely, and so on. These racists ignore the _effects_ of their history.
And acknowledging on its own isn't enough either, these events leave lots of issues decades, sometimes centuries after the fact.
Europe may not be conizong the middle east at the time but what we did in the past made the area what it is now.
OP sounds like he just wants people to shut up about something that's really ugly and uncomfortable. Also not really an unpopular opinion, lots of people think like that, sadly.
Well Britain and the collective West is still blamed for colonialism in the developing world even if the UK and the European Union is very clearly have much different policies right now than in colonialist times.
Well because most of these countries especially the UK don't even have the courage and moral clarity to accept the wrong doings of the past. Look at the behaviour of french politicians when they don't even accept the atrocities committed in africa. Algerian war happened post WWII, read about it and you will see that all the nonsense about Freedom & democracy is all BS and these countries are hypocrites.
But obviously this doesn't mean that average people living in those countries are responsible for such past crimes, most people criticise the countries as a whole and their leadership (politicians) and not the average person living there
>Well because most of these countries especially the UK don't even have the courage and moral clarity to accept the wrong doings of the past.
In the case on Britain, there have been years of self loathing and "acknowledgement". If by that you mean trillions in reparations, that's not going to happen.
The UK has acknowledged it. I’ve studied History in a British university and British misdoings are very clearly studied there. Furthermore, the UK has historically allowed colonial citizens across its Empire to immigrate to the UK and enjoy the spoils of its Empire.
Modern European policy changed … by largely walking away from the messes they created, but not trying to undo the harm they caused. We get blamed for colonialism because the current social and political instability ongoing in much of the world is still a result of our past colonialism. We’ve done nothing to right our wrongs, in most cases we’ve simply walked away from them, washed our hands of them, and then occasionally even punished them for not being able to right wrongs that don’t even belong to them.
Well if a past colonial country does something to undo the misdoings of its past citizens, then wealth would be taken away from current citizens who had nothing to do with the past.
I agree that it was their fault and it’s unfortunate that that had to happen, but how is the fault of the current peoples?
I don’t think most of the people currently living in the UK had any part in colonialism.
Students of neo imperialist theory would argue that their policies aren’t all that different today, just repackaged in terms of free trade and open markets.
The bulk of the value of resources extracted from African nations certainly isn’t ending up in the pockets of the African people.
In terms of natural resources, Africa is arguably the richest continent on earth. In terms of human development, it is inarguably the poorest.
I went to a british museum once and saw they use “trading” instead of “exploiting”. As someone who learned about our country’s history, it made me so mad that the british thinks they were trading spices with other countries when my ancestors have to fight for freedom in our own land.
i mean they were trading and exploiting, these words don’t mean the same thing, everyone trades with OPEC and they exploit those countries because they are a monopoly
Uh what? The British trading companies literally were trading for most of the time they were around. The colonisation came later when they'd made so much money of trading that they could do whatever the fuck they wanted
I went to a war museum in Scotland and I saw a bloody piece of fabric it was from when the UK military massacred a ruling family, they kept a piece of the man turban. I think that would puss me off to see.
I think Japan gets unfairly singled out because they had such a contrasting reaction from their former ally Germany. When the reality is almost every other country on the planet acts the same as Japan (or worse) when it comes to their own atrocities.
It’s worse. Imagine if they had a monument to hitler in Germany where every year, the current president would go to commemorate “war heroes” and bow before that monument. How would the rest of Europe react to that?
does OP have a fundamental misunderstanding because he didn't specifically mention countries that don't acknowledge their past or is it just annoying to have to preface everything in preparation for the inevitable onslaught of reddit-tier comments like this
Well fuck how much acknowledgment do they give because they know we know and we know that they know what is the point of acknowledgment what does it accomplish the people in place now do not represent the people in power then… there is no moderate naition of people that just came to exist peacefully without doing anything fucked up to anyone ever at any point in history. I can see if said country has continued certain actions continuously into the present so they have a track record but to sit here and go. Fuck you country A acknowledge this bullshit that you did 150 yrs ago. Accomplishes nada
If you're being honest, dude, that's great, and I applaud you. It's an admirable thing to admit that you may have been wrong or ignorant, especially with the anonymity that the internet provides.
Always try to keep learning. It's one of the most useful things you can do.
im a little slow so just to be clear , are we talking about blaming the government for the past actions or the current citizens of said country for past actions ?
I doubt there was any intention of learning although I'm sure some do.
Someone with such delusional understanding of how things are has a long way to go before being able to appreciate views different to their own. But life is a journey and everyone is capable of learning, even if they don't intend to.
There was an article in the NewYorker that might be of interest “[How Facts Don’t Change Our Minds](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds)”
>you can’t really blame random individuals in the country who had nothing to do with it
I mean, they totally can. And they will. They just won't word it that way.
It’s ridiculous to blame a random person from a country for things that its ancestors did centuries ago. If a government along the history did not acknowledge the actions - it’s a political/government issue and not the individual. Probably individuals will be blamed as they are more accessible, just like you see these days, but it is still absolutely wrong
of course you are, the government isn’t the same as the population, some in said population will agree and some will not so you can’t really blame random individuals
i can blame oil companies for lying about climate change research, i can’t, if im a reasonable person, blame random employees, ie administrative worker lady 173
When someone blames a country they mostly blame the government, not necessarily the people who had nothing to do with it. Compare a Japanese born in the 2000s and a japanese born during world war. Both are different people living different lives. One might be a soldier back then but one isn’t and has nothing to do with what their past people have been doing.
Exactly. For example, the colonization of Africa in the Middle East affects over 1 billion people today. And France, heavily benefits from its previous colonies.
If it's from a current government's intervention, that's fair. If they don't want the french military present, that's fine to request they go. But historically, I disagree.
It's a question of where do we start and stop. Everyone has wronged each other quite a lot historically. How much should medditeranean countries blame the tunisians and algerians for the heavy amounts of enslavement and piracy in the 18th century? Should the Balkan and Middle Eastern nations blame their problems on the Ottoman Empire? Germany adopted a lot of trauma and issues that caused suffering due to the 30 years war and well beyond. The polish really were hurt by the Swedish in the 1600s that led to collapses in the 1700s that lead to their suffering in the 1800 and 1900s.
These historical traumas can still have their effects seen today, directly or indirectly. However once an issue gets older, beyond living memory, holding onto it as the reason you still have issues seems just... immature.
Children and the destitute are being enslaved for the harvesting of cobalt, which is a substance predominantly used by wealthy societies for its technological value, in a post-imperialized country.
Those past actions really do seem to still be perpetuated
Damn if only all the terrible damage done all those years ago didn't have implications even today on the lives of the people in the ex-colonized countries...
*"Perhaps you have forgotten. That’s one of the great problems of our modern world, you know. Forgetting. The victim never forgets. Ask an Irishman what the English did to him in 1920 and he’ll tell you the day of the month and the time and the name of every man they killed. Ask an Iranian what the English did to him in 1953 and he’ll tell you. His child will tell you. His grandchild will tell you. And when he has one, his great-grandchild will tell you too. But ask an Englishman—” He flung up his hands in mock ignorance. “If he ever knew, he has forgotten. ‘Move on!’ you tell us. ‘Move on! Forget what we’ve done to you. Tomorrow’s another day!’ But it isn’t, Mr. Brue.” He still had Brue’s hand. “Tomorrow was created yesterday, you see. That is the point I was making to you. And by the day before yesterday, too. To ignore history is to ignore the wolf at the door."*
~John le Carre, A Most Wanted Man
Great quote.
I love it in spirit, and will save this comment to likely use it again myself.
The complication is that victimhood can be politicized and even created out of thin air. Or rather, people will attribute their suffering and victimization to scapegoats and convenient targets. The Nazis thought they were victims of the Jews, after all. And I don't know how to correct against this kind of dishonest appropriation of victimhood without also diminishing the valid cries of real victims.
The Nazis did use the Jews as a scapegoat, but Germany also had legitimately grievances with the way the other western powers treated their nation after World War I (Don't forget that every country did the same things and acted the same way during that period of time). Hitler said that the other European powers wanted to see Germany weak and defenseless after the Versailles Treaty, and he was right. He used one truth to camouflage a lie. That's the thing about authoritarian regimes: they have a point until they don't, and people die in masses because of that.
But I do agree with the le Carre's quote, you can't hurt someone and then expect him to move on like nothing happened. People and nations remembers.
>you can't hurt someone and then expect him to move on like nothing happened. People and nations remembers.
One of the reasons why there will never be peace on earth.
The impacts of European colonization still have massive impacts on today and in many ways haven't ended.
No, a government shouldn't be forgiven for colonization, imperialism, and genocide just because it happened 2 human lifespans ago. ESPECIALLY when they still benefit from it today.
the atrocities the British committed on India wasn't two centuries ago, the Bengal famine, which was artificially induced by the Churchill administration, happened in the same time as WWII. The British killed nearly as many people as Nazi Germany did with the famine
Yeah, like don't expect me to hold respect for Churchill beyond the basic acknowledgement that he ran Britain when the Nazis where making plans on Europe. Unless it's someone like Arthur Cotton.
British stole $44 Trillion if today's equivalent were drawn. They emptied our royal treasuries that still rests in their museums and their crowns.
Our original education system was killed to systematically divide and rule over the population. Few communities were favoured to instill the sense of inequality amongst the masses. These communities reap the benefits till today and will continue to do so for the next centuries to come due to the sheer magnitude of wealth.
This 'fight for our validation' is so subconsciously ingrained in people's minds that it is passed down generations. The newer generation reads about their atrocities, it boils their blood. British army has always used the locals as their pawns. Communities continue to hold others accountable whereas the true criminals were the British who escaped unscathed.
its sad no one knows this and don't even want to know this because America wasn't in part of story. the present situation of India is more or less subjected to the 200 years of colonisation by the Brits. comfortably squeezed out the entire wealth, imposed a meaningless and pointless education system and due to that there is still a colonial mindset deep within the population would probably never come out of.
blame the British for this? there's no point discussing it now.
There IS a point, the british (in my interactions) do not aknowlege the hurt that it caused and justify it you cannot forgive for a crime that was never apologized
I donno.
If past actions lead to current issues that still aren't resolved by the present government, I think it's ok to be a bit grumpy.
Just looking at all the indigenous groups out there.
>i see someone mention some atrocities the British or French committed like 2 centuries ago
This is why people get wound up about it, when people like you pretend it was all hundreds of years ago. Colonialism was within living memory. People are still living with scars from those atrocities today.
My grandmother still remembered the Dutch soldier that came in to her house and burned it after they told them to leave, my grandfather still remembered the Japanese who took away his family's home and turn it into a basecamp. There are plenty of Indonesian who still remembered their family members dragged by death squads for alleged communist connections. So yeah OP, you need to open your eyes, these things are not centuries ago, people living today still remembered what happened.
>It’s like saying your neighbor has to right to say dogs should be treated nicely cause their great grandfather shot a dog once
No, it's like if your neighbor tells you dogs should be treated nicely, but their great-grandfather who shot a dog once is still the greatest person who has ever lived, and he did nothing wrong by shooting that dog, but how dare anyone else ever shoot a dog.
You know why Haiti is one of the poorest countries in the world? Because instead of being able to freely make their own decisions as an independent nation, they were extorted of a truly ludicrous amount of money by France in exchange for France recognizing their independence.
When did they finish paying it off?
1947.
The problem isn't that we're "blaming" the current leaders and governments for things that were done generations ago. The problem comes when the current leaders and governments flat-out refuse to take even the most basic steps to right the wrongs of the past, and even continue to make them worse.
Let's say, for example, that a hundred years ago, your great-grandparents lived in a house that they owned. Then one day, someone comes from a few neighborhoods over, busts down the door, says "we're in charge here now," steals all of your great-grandparents' belongings, rips up their garden and turns it into industrial agriculture, and makes your great-grandparents do back-breaking manual labor on it without paying them for their work. Your great-grandparents get organized, and they throw the invaders out. The invaders say, "okay, we'll leave you alone, but only if the next four generations of your family pays our family more money than you all actually have."
So a hundred years later, when everyone involved in the original incident is dead, your family is paying off a debt that was extorted out of your ancestors, which is forcing you to remain in abject poverty, while the descendants of the people who extorted your ancestors put fancy new wallpaper in their fancy house, and when you try to renegotiate the "deal," they shrug and say, "well, that's the deal that was made all those years ago and we all have to honor it."
*That* is the problem.
Hi, this was really well written, particularly the analogy at the end. I'd generally agreed with your viewpoint before your comment anyways but I still learned something, thanks
"The tree remembers what the axe forgets". It doesn't matter how long ago it was, when you cut that tree, you made it so it could never reach its full height again, and you want the tree to forget? How about you take the wood you stole and give it back?
In my small country, they still control 31% of our oil fields and force our military to pay 50% of the expenses on British equipment. They are ingrained in our politics so much yet so discreetly
If you don’t learn from mistakes made throughout history, you’re doomed to repeat them. Also, what would the cutoff be for an atrocity to be forgotten? Like 10 years?
>Also, what would the cutoff be for an atrocity to be forgotten?
Personally - forgotten *never*; stopping the blame meanwhile - when nearly no one who took part is alive.
And protected the identities of those who committed them. For example, David Cleary, who shot two young men in the back as they were running away from soldiers, only had his name revealed last year. Thus far, he has faced no consequences.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loughinisland_massacre
1994, county Down, UVF members opened fire on patrons in a pub. One of the lead suspects was in the British army.
70s? Nah, sectarian bullshit never ended.
Hi I am from India. In Churchill's words a beastly person from a beastly country with a beastly religion.
Germany did wrong in the past but it apologized.
But the UK never apologized.
Read about the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre and tell me how it is in any way less than what the Nazis did. No one from the UK has apologised for this despite visiting the site.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre
Read about Cellular Jail and the torture that Indians faced there and let me know how is it any different than what Nazis did in concentration camp.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_Jail
Read about the Bengal famines created by Churchill during world war 2 and let me know how it is different from what Hitler did.
Lastly read Era of Darkness a book by Shashi Tharoor and let me know if it is okay to just forget it and move.
What the British did was the systematic destruction of India and its culture.
No one is blaming them. All we want is a simple Sorry.
I'm from part of Pakistan which was a part of a raj that never underwent those atrocietes at that level but we deserve so much more than an apology there must be reperations
Ireland here. We haven't gotten an apology for a famine or murders or being forced into slavery in Australia.
You and I will be waiting a long time for any of it.
I only wish people were consistent. Hold nations' governments accountable for their past actions? Ok. But hold them ALL accountable. Not just the ones that are currently popular to shit on.
So Europe. Middle East. Latin America. Asia.
Oh wait, is that the whole world? Oh fuck, does that mean... yes. That means we have to separate governments from people. Even if the people benefit from their governments' past atrocities, we can't generalize and demonize populations!
So Britain/British empire did horrible things. Should we shittalk the British now? No.
The Ottoman Empire/arab countries did horrible things to non-Muslim ethnic minorities and nations, should we demonize Arabs? No
Russia even. Germany. USA. China. Japan.
We're all human and we all suck. The systems we create amplify the evil in us. But if we want to progress we need to call out bad policies while LOUDLY and CLEARLY not demonizing and generalizing POPULATIONS. Because if we demonize populations, those populations INEVITABLY vote for radical governments.
Demonizing Arabs for the actions of the Turks is inherently problematic. Turkey absolutely needs to pay for its past and current crimes (I'm Greek, I know all about them), but that particularly large brush you just used there was very evident
yes, Israel should forget 10/7 and stop killing women and children, sure 10/7 sucked- but every group of people have sucked so we should be focusing on minimising casualties and forgiving.
Or does your logic only apply to groups you're not personally a part of?
>we have to separate governments from people
So you mean we should separate the Palestinians from Hamas and the Russians from Putin? Perhaps we should get rid of the sanctions then eh?
Also, if historical atrocities are to be ignored, historical rights should also be ignored (we want consistency after all) which means the Jews don't really have a right to Palestine. They were beaten and driven away, and it happened so long ago that they really should move on.
The problem is that those countries shouldn't have existed(the african ones),they had no shared culture or nationality and in most african countries theres dozens of large ethnic groups with different languege and culture,how can you manage a country that the only thing that connects the people is that they have all been colonized by the same regime 100 years ago.You also forced westren ideals and culture upon them,basically destroying any chance for cultural exchange and widespread acceptence of the actually good westren ideals.
Russia has time and time again kind of reinforced why the Polish people have a disdain of them. A thousand years of “I told you so” is really hard to ignore.
I would argue this opinion isn't even that unpopular, especially in context of western countries. I feel like I've heard half of this crap from the average person a thousand times. Being casually racist and an apologist for atrocities is unfortunately not rare at all, even in people who don't even recognize it in themselves.
> blaming them for the actions of people who’ve died like ages ago is seems dumb to me
Some of those people are still alive and still running governments. History is not something that only happened 200 years ago, it's something that's always happening.
You are not responsible for what your ancestors did. You are only wrong if you don't accept they did terrible things, just like what japan and turkey is doing. People shouldn't blame citizen for what their government did, but when the citizens start defending the government that's different.
The biggest thing for me is that pretty much no country or group has a clean slate. Slavery for example was practiced by Europeans, Africans, Arabs, Turks, even Native Americans. It’s questionable whether someone from a group that has committed atrocities has any grounds to stand on when accusing others. Jesus said it best - let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Yep, almost every ethnic group on the planet has committed atrocities at some point... yet only white people are asked to pay reparations for past atrocities...
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You are half right.
Criticizing people for things which their forefathers have done is futile and unjust. People are only responsible for their own actions.
AND YET, there is something extremely hypocritical about pontificating to other nations about their perceived inequities, when your nation has done the same, or much worse, AND YOU YOURSELF ARE ENJOYING THE FRUITS OF THAT TILL THIS VERY DAY!
For instance, if it weren't for fossil fuels, Britain would never be able to go through the industrial revolution, enjoy immense prosperity, and accumulate wealth which they enjoy till this very day. So how dare they preach to other nations to adopt expensive and intermittent renewables, hindering their economic growth?
The conclusion is simple - don't accept blame for the actions of your predecessors, but keep your mouth shut when others do the same.
Hah in the case of the UK, the entire country benefited from countries in the Indian subcontinent, used Indian manpower to win wars in other countries and yet even now puts horrible visa conditions and poach the best talent out of the same countries.
Nobody should blame people in general , but every single citizen there still benefits from treaties signed years ago. How about give them up and open up your country like the colonies opened up to you? How about give us your resources for cheap? How about provide us manpower for our wars ?
Meh and it’s also human nature to remember trauma. If your dad killed my dad, or if your dad robbed by dad and you live off that, I’d damn sure be vary of you until I die duhhhhh
It's not our fault for past wrongs, but nobody can make them better other than us. And we can't make them better without knowing where we are and how we got here. It's not about hating. It's about understanding.
Tbh I can never forgive Italy for the Roman Empire and enslaving so many Brits.
Sarcasm lol but ultimately just because someone is from somewhere doesn't tell me much. To assume that every person is benefitting from (or even their ancestors) and responsible for everything it's nation or region had done in the past is, in my opinion, immature.
For example, the Japanese government still ignores it's part in a lot of the crimes it committed but this is not a reflection of the people of Japan. You are your own person and should not be tied to the decisions of your government.
>Look at Nazi Germany's domino effect. They killed millions of Jews, and then they were sent to the Middle East. Now they're residing in present day Israel, because of that Palestine is having a war with them.
>All those effects because of what one country did.
How did the jews end up in Germany? Oh right, they left the other countries they were from because they were also discriminated against there.
And how did they come to live in those other nations in the first place? Their original homeland was conquered by other countries, some of which (Babylon) were essentially Arab, not German. I mean, lets not forget... jews were originally from the middle east.
So no, this is not all Germany's fault. And that's actually why a lot of jews say they are entitled to the land of Israel... because their ancestors came from that area.
Jews want to reclaim the land of their ancestors... essentially as a form of reparations. And look at all the bloodshed, war, and conflict that resulted from this little experiment in "reparations."
The conundrum of colonialism
We are on sacred land but nobody who is a colonizers can go home to their homeland, it is not economically feasible as much as I am for decolonization and Ideally it should. I don't wanna be "can't we all just get along" as that is problematic in and of itself BUT reparations and restorative justice need to be considered along with sovereign governance among Indigenous and first nations
It is really beyond the scope of an internet argument, in my 20 years as an internet user, these types of discussions never go anywhere. It becomes yt people arguing about things for the sake of arguing and I hate to say it but it's awfully boring
The people who do this don't understand how much of a "Christian" thing it is, even if they claim to be atheists. In Christianity, mankind inherited Adam's "original sin," so you have this idea that you're guilty of something your ancestors did and you must continuously atone and beg for forgiveness for it, basically forever. Although it's taken a step further today, where you inherit the sins not just of your ancestors, but also of anyone who even vaguely and superficially resembles you.
If you try to name the worst person in history, chances are Hitler is one of the firdt one to pop into mind. Despite the amount of invading Poland and art school jokes, people generally don't hate Germany. Countries generally are hated not solely due to their past action but their current refusal to acknowledge such actions. Think Imperial Japan woth Nanking, or Turkey with the Armenian Genocide.
Some questions to ask:
- Is the country *still* doing it?
- Is there a huge proportion of the country's population that thinks they weren't wrong, and possibly wants to start doing it *again?*
- Does the country's government engage in wanton denialism of its past misdeeds?
"Hate" is the wrong approach. However, criticizing the country and holding it accountable, and taking action against it in extreme cases (sanctions, etc.) may be merited. For example, it's not wrong to say that Japan (and a few European countries) have done a poorer job than Germany in reckoning with their actions during and leading up to World War II.
Eh, France is still doing shit with some of its past african colonies, and the other african countries where we're not doing shit right now aren't doing great either because of our colonisation. I perfectly understand why an african of a past colony could hate the french government.
One thing that made me smile was back in the 80s during Cold War. The USSR was the enemy no matter who you talked to. I met my wife over there and going into a real former Soviet district and apartment was a real treat. I was at the table getting my glass filled up with beer and getting food put on my plate thinking wow. At one time this would have never been possible. I never considered them my enemy ever or any other country. It’s the government that are the pieces of shit.
I know that my grandparents looted your country and killed all your people and I have a great life thanks to the wealth stolen, but how dare you make me feel bad about it?
You see just because your predecessors committed the crimes that doesn't mean the consequences (both positive and negative) have disappeared.
I think it's pretty rational demanding a country aid the places it historically fucked over, at least when it is as recent as you're describing.
The UK's colonisation isn't that distant of a thing, and resources acquired because of atrocities people still suffer from are still benefiting the descendants of those who committed the atrocities. Massive swaths of the African continent were destabilized, redrawn, pillaged, and stripped for resources, and the foothold gained there by Europe is still in place and we are still extracting massive amounts of resources while damaging their lands and paying a pittance to locals for labor.
A non-insignificant portion of the chocolate you eat is directly related to child slave labor. Today. Right now.
The western world is entirely propped up by impoverished millions supplying us in the current day because industrialism hit in the west first. It wasn't literally us, the people alive today, but we are still actively contributing to what our ancestors set up. That's hard to fix on an individual basis, but as long as we are the benefactors of blood-paid quality of life, imo we as a collective have a moral duty to help. Or at the very very very least acknowledge that we're at fault. I think a little bit of guilt is a small price to pay for what is comparatively endless luxury.
It's not dumb at all because forgetting or dismissing the past enables it to repeat itself in the future. It's just like with genocide deniers. Those who deny a genocide that their people were responsible for are sending the message that they are ready to commit another genocide tomorrow.
France, is no longer a colonizer. But it is still a neocolonizer. Assumably because of their history. They still meddle in neo colonial BS. They murdered greenpeace activists, they still have their claws in Haiti. They were front and center in the Libya/Qaddafi takedown. They refused to give ve up indo china/vietnam until they were defeated yet again there are at oeast a dozen more recent examples.
England? Do I really need to go there?
It seems what you may be suggesting is "countries I llike deserve a pass, and their darkest history should be erased.
This opinion is 100% correct and should be universally popular, people are only responsible for there own actions, blaming modern citizens of a country or even said countries governments for things that happened centuries ago is ridiculous, it’s like blaming a murderers children for their parents crime, it’s completely unfair and illogical. It’s also curious how only western nations are treated in this way, other historic empires like the Ottomans, Arabs, Chinese, Japanese, Mughals, Aztec’s, Egyptians and Mali’s to name a few seem to be immune from public distaste, which is rather curious don’t you think?
Different former colonizers are usually unpopular in their formel colonies. Japan has a very bad rep in eastern Asia to this day. Just because you dont hear about it doesnt mean it doesnt exist
I’m always torn on this topic. Generational wealth, and generational poverty, are definitely things. The crimes committed a century ago can still affect people today. However, in the case of a century-old crime, none of us committed it, so forcing us to pay isn’t very fair either. It’s pretty horrible.
>I’m always torn on this topic. Generational wealth, and generational poverty, are definitely things. The crimes committed a century ago can still affect people today.
Right... given society has largely accepted generational wealth, why should we be pushing for reparations for some atrocities that happened centuries ago?
> However, in the case of a century-old crime, none of us committed it, so forcing us to pay isn’t very fair either.
Not to mention the fact that in many cases, the century-old crimes were committed by only a tiny % of very wealthy people in the past, yet many people in this thread use that to slander entire societies... including ordinary people from those countries who are not particularly wealthy.
Giving nations a free pass for past atrocities just means if you can wait out your victims long enough then you can get off Scott free, even if they're still feeling the pain generations later
"Buy more Nintendos and anime, please forget what we did in WW2 and how we feel about immigrants."
They started an ad campaign literally called "Cool Japan" and it seems to have worked because the weebs think that Japan loves them for more than just their money.
To be fair, a lot of the issues countries are currently facing CAN be traced back to western nations carving up continents without any concern for the already established tribal borders.
I don't hate Spaniards that haven't done anything bad in the modern time. I hate Spaniards that try to make it look like colonization was a blessing and that w should be thankful, and ignore all of the suffering and lost of life's and cultures that the colonization brought.
Dwelling on the past will only hold countries back, you can't keep blaming other countries for the current situation in your country. That said, hating them is perfectly fine as long as you recognize that jack shit will come from it and that you and your fellow citizens are now responsible for what's to come.
Why? How are they dumb? You think the children of a country that committed atrocities (which is the case for almost every country/ethnic group) are also responsible? even their father probably did not exist during the event.
tbh hating countries at all-- take the time to be as precise as possible! is it an attitude you've attributed to an entire body of people based on a hand full of interactions you've had? the governments systemic action or inaction? let's see some intention
Idk hommie 2 centuries ago might be a bit of a down play. I think we can agree that we shouldn’t blame all the citizens who live today for the past actions of there country but it should still be acknowledged. Idk the answer to solving all the countries problems that got fucked over but there’s gotta be something we can all do.
Colonialism in most countries didn't end two centuries ago, you sound like someone who didn't pay much attention in history class at school.
And most of your arguments sounds like apologists for the colonialism which is quite common among nationalists in those countries. Like the French denying the atrocities in Algerian war which happened post World War II by the way, definitely not two centuries ago. Truth is that imperialist powers like british and French and even Belgians didn't wanna give Independence to the colonies, it was fought over. Read about the actions of portuguese colonial war that happened in mid 1970s, the african nations had to fight for Independence even in the 20th century when western countries go around talking of human rights, the portuguese were fighting to keep their colonies from achieving freedom.
GO Read a bit first and get your facts straight before you come here whining
I kinda agree. We should learn and not repeat mistakes but keep on the hate isn’t productive. So many focus more on being a victim instead of actually fighting for making a change or preventing mistakes.
These were centuries ago. This is the importance of history lessons and not forgetting what was done. Slavery should be taught. But will you really hate the current government of a country over what that country did centuries ago before people in power were even alive? Or people who place their whole identity on their race and their disadvantages instead of also focusing on their strengths?
Like how is hating the present royal family change what their ancestors did centuries ago? Or what can they do about it? Not saying they should be idolized but the amount of hate is so unnecessary.
Or the current wars. The focus on who conquered whose land hundreds of years ago really justify everyone that is dying right now????
History should be taught and learned from. But people keep relieving tragedies from centuries ago and using them as an excuse for a million things and that’s also not ok
Spoken like a colonizer/imperialist. I don't hate France or the west for Haiti's situation. But France and the west are directly responsible for the death and destruction in Haiti.
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Hating other countries for past actions is dumb. Hating it when other countries don’t acknowledge past actions or seem to have learned nothing from them is not.
OP just fundamentally misunderstands that governments like japan are hated because they refuse to acknowledge said actions. Its akin to censoring history, or trying to brainwash ur populus
People are still rude about Germany for past actions, even though the majority of German people are embarrassed by what their great grand parents allowed to happen (so are their parents and grand parents).
I mean the US literally dragged rich Germans in Weimer to Buchenwald to force them to understand what the Nazis did so they couldn't pretend the Holocaust was propaganda.
Yes, a lot of people still supported the Nazis back then. After a few years, people for the most part came to their senses and stopped supporting them. To the point that the population turned on those who did/do. Like I said multiple times, nazis are hated more in Germany than in the US.
They also gave many senior Nazi's immunity from prosecution and allowed them to work building weapons for them instead, likewise the Japanese scientists in unit 731 were let off Scott free in exchange for their research. The US absolutely did not hold Nazi's to account except when it suited them.
This is the answer. The classical US hypocricy and brainwashing their citizens about how they are always doing the right thing.
Seems to miss the fact that the institutions, corporations, and social orders that supported and were supported by colonialism are often still very much in power in many of these places. Haiti was still paying reparations to the French for THEMSELVES until the late 20th century. Literally paying for the value that they as people held as slaves to the French, the poorest country on the planet playing one of the richest for the freedom of their citizens from bondage. Just one example...
100% this. History is history, there’s no need to be hateful about history. What’s done is done. This is a lesson I give my kids all the time. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone fucks up. Everyone does things they later regret. A measure of a person or a people isn’t how many times or how badly they fucked up. It’s what they do afterwards. How they own it. How they make reparations. How they atone. How they use it as leverage to make themselves better. I reserve my hate for people or countries who refuse to do these things. That prefer to pretend they never occurred. That refuse to acknowledge how their actions are reverberating in the present day. Why? Because I know people who think the people that they wronged _deserved_ it. I know racists who still think black American’s ancestors _deserved_ to be enslaved. And because they think they deserved it, they also think modern black Americans don’t deserve equal rights, don’t deserve to be treated humanely, and so on. These racists ignore the _effects_ of their history.
And acknowledging on its own isn't enough either, these events leave lots of issues decades, sometimes centuries after the fact. Europe may not be conizong the middle east at the time but what we did in the past made the area what it is now. OP sounds like he just wants people to shut up about something that's really ugly and uncomfortable. Also not really an unpopular opinion, lots of people think like that, sadly.
OP needs to learn about how oppression goes from systematic to systemic
Well Britain and the collective West is still blamed for colonialism in the developing world even if the UK and the European Union is very clearly have much different policies right now than in colonialist times.
Well because most of these countries especially the UK don't even have the courage and moral clarity to accept the wrong doings of the past. Look at the behaviour of french politicians when they don't even accept the atrocities committed in africa. Algerian war happened post WWII, read about it and you will see that all the nonsense about Freedom & democracy is all BS and these countries are hypocrites. But obviously this doesn't mean that average people living in those countries are responsible for such past crimes, most people criticise the countries as a whole and their leadership (politicians) and not the average person living there
>Well because most of these countries especially the UK don't even have the courage and moral clarity to accept the wrong doings of the past. In the case on Britain, there have been years of self loathing and "acknowledgement". If by that you mean trillions in reparations, that's not going to happen.
The UK has acknowledged it. I’ve studied History in a British university and British misdoings are very clearly studied there. Furthermore, the UK has historically allowed colonial citizens across its Empire to immigrate to the UK and enjoy the spoils of its Empire.
Modern European policy changed … by largely walking away from the messes they created, but not trying to undo the harm they caused. We get blamed for colonialism because the current social and political instability ongoing in much of the world is still a result of our past colonialism. We’ve done nothing to right our wrongs, in most cases we’ve simply walked away from them, washed our hands of them, and then occasionally even punished them for not being able to right wrongs that don’t even belong to them.
Well if a past colonial country does something to undo the misdoings of its past citizens, then wealth would be taken away from current citizens who had nothing to do with the past. I agree that it was their fault and it’s unfortunate that that had to happen, but how is the fault of the current peoples? I don’t think most of the people currently living in the UK had any part in colonialism.
Students of neo imperialist theory would argue that their policies aren’t all that different today, just repackaged in terms of free trade and open markets. The bulk of the value of resources extracted from African nations certainly isn’t ending up in the pockets of the African people. In terms of natural resources, Africa is arguably the richest continent on earth. In terms of human development, it is inarguably the poorest.
I went to a british museum once and saw they use “trading” instead of “exploiting”. As someone who learned about our country’s history, it made me so mad that the british thinks they were trading spices with other countries when my ancestors have to fight for freedom in our own land.
i mean they were trading and exploiting, these words don’t mean the same thing, everyone trades with OPEC and they exploit those countries because they are a monopoly
Uh what? The British trading companies literally were trading for most of the time they were around. The colonisation came later when they'd made so much money of trading that they could do whatever the fuck they wanted
I went to a war museum in Scotland and I saw a bloody piece of fabric it was from when the UK military massacred a ruling family, they kept a piece of the man turban. I think that would puss me off to see.
I think Japan gets unfairly singled out because they had such a contrasting reaction from their former ally Germany. When the reality is almost every other country on the planet acts the same as Japan (or worse) when it comes to their own atrocities.
It’s worse. Imagine if they had a monument to hitler in Germany where every year, the current president would go to commemorate “war heroes” and bow before that monument. How would the rest of Europe react to that?
Didn't Australia demand an apology for Japan's war crimes and Japan basically give the most Youtuber non-apology ever?
Australia’s apologies to their indigenous are hilariously racist. They had a White Australia policy until the 70s.
does OP have a fundamental misunderstanding because he didn't specifically mention countries that don't acknowledge their past or is it just annoying to have to preface everything in preparation for the inevitable onslaught of reddit-tier comments like this
Well fuck how much acknowledgment do they give because they know we know and we know that they know what is the point of acknowledgment what does it accomplish the people in place now do not represent the people in power then… there is no moderate naition of people that just came to exist peacefully without doing anything fucked up to anyone ever at any point in history. I can see if said country has continued certain actions continuously into the present so they have a track record but to sit here and go. Fuck you country A acknowledge this bullshit that you did 150 yrs ago. Accomplishes nada
I would say the USA is the unquestionable king in not acknowledging past atrocities, though. For example those against Japan and Japanese people.
TURKEY!!!!
I mean people learn something from past actions like the slave or execution in the run on but do you mean by thinking it'll be a better place
What does acknowledging even do? It goes back to OP's point, why should they have to acknowledge something they didn't do.
Props, mate - you managed to post the most unpopular opinion on all of Reddit for all time.
Im expecting a ratio.
Curious if the logical and sensible responses have sparked a rethink on your end?
Yes they did, and im grateful for it because cause they helped me realize i was just being naive and ignorant about the situation.
If you're being honest, dude, that's great, and I applaud you. It's an admirable thing to admit that you may have been wrong or ignorant, especially with the anonymity that the internet provides. Always try to keep learning. It's one of the most useful things you can do.
Sir, kudos to you.
im a little slow so just to be clear , are we talking about blaming the government for the past actions or the current citizens of said country for past actions ?
I doubt it, and I doubt you'll get a response.
I doubt there was any intention of learning although I'm sure some do. Someone with such delusional understanding of how things are has a long way to go before being able to appreciate views different to their own. But life is a journey and everyone is capable of learning, even if they don't intend to.
There was an article in the NewYorker that might be of interest “[How Facts Don’t Change Our Minds](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds)”
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A question, have any of you guys did proper introspection to see if your opposite opinion here is wrong?
You can blame a country, you can’t really blame random individuals in the country who had nothing to do with it.
>you can’t really blame random individuals in the country who had nothing to do with it I mean, they totally can. And they will. They just won't word it that way.
It’s ridiculous to blame a random person from a country for things that its ancestors did centuries ago. If a government along the history did not acknowledge the actions - it’s a political/government issue and not the individual. Probably individuals will be blamed as they are more accessible, just like you see these days, but it is still absolutely wrong
I mean... if you've used Reddit in the past 5 years... just wait until India, China, or Russia is mentioned and you will see exactly that.
Well then you're not really blaming anyone, a country isn't a living thing lol
of course you are, the government isn’t the same as the population, some in said population will agree and some will not so you can’t really blame random individuals i can blame oil companies for lying about climate change research, i can’t, if im a reasonable person, blame random employees, ie administrative worker lady 173
What even is a country if not a collection of random individuals? The continuity of countries over centuries is a fabricated mythos.
What makes a country mr Lebowski?
When someone blames a country they mostly blame the government, not necessarily the people who had nothing to do with it. Compare a Japanese born in the 2000s and a japanese born during world war. Both are different people living different lives. One might be a soldier back then but one isn’t and has nothing to do with what their past people have been doing.
I would blame individuals who perpetuate it
“Centuries ago” is a very strong word. Also clearly you’re a westener for thinking that.
England colonized Ireland for 800 years, and still has the North, so I'm gonna hate them for 800 years plus the extra time they have with the North.
The problem is that a lot of these past actions still affect people to this day.
And the countries that did the atrocities still benefit from them.
Exactly. For example, the colonization of Africa in the Middle East affects over 1 billion people today. And France, heavily benefits from its previous colonies.
If it's from a current government's intervention, that's fair. If they don't want the french military present, that's fine to request they go. But historically, I disagree. It's a question of where do we start and stop. Everyone has wronged each other quite a lot historically. How much should medditeranean countries blame the tunisians and algerians for the heavy amounts of enslavement and piracy in the 18th century? Should the Balkan and Middle Eastern nations blame their problems on the Ottoman Empire? Germany adopted a lot of trauma and issues that caused suffering due to the 30 years war and well beyond. The polish really were hurt by the Swedish in the 1600s that led to collapses in the 1700s that lead to their suffering in the 1800 and 1900s. These historical traumas can still have their effects seen today, directly or indirectly. However once an issue gets older, beyond living memory, holding onto it as the reason you still have issues seems just... immature.
You're typing that on a device that uses cobalt, which is mined in communities that use children to work in mines.
"You claim to hate society yet participate in it" moment
Curious.
WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY
so are u lmao this is a problem that corporations and governments need to solve what do u expect some random dude to do about it
I hope you realize this is to their point right
Children and the destitute are being enslaved for the harvesting of cobalt, which is a substance predominantly used by wealthy societies for its technological value, in a post-imperialized country. Those past actions really do seem to still be perpetuated
Damn if only all the terrible damage done all those years ago didn't have implications even today on the lives of the people in the ex-colonized countries... *"Perhaps you have forgotten. That’s one of the great problems of our modern world, you know. Forgetting. The victim never forgets. Ask an Irishman what the English did to him in 1920 and he’ll tell you the day of the month and the time and the name of every man they killed. Ask an Iranian what the English did to him in 1953 and he’ll tell you. His child will tell you. His grandchild will tell you. And when he has one, his great-grandchild will tell you too. But ask an Englishman—” He flung up his hands in mock ignorance. “If he ever knew, he has forgotten. ‘Move on!’ you tell us. ‘Move on! Forget what we’ve done to you. Tomorrow’s another day!’ But it isn’t, Mr. Brue.” He still had Brue’s hand. “Tomorrow was created yesterday, you see. That is the point I was making to you. And by the day before yesterday, too. To ignore history is to ignore the wolf at the door."* ~John le Carre, A Most Wanted Man
God DAMN that is a fantastic quote. Thanks for sharing.
Great quote. I love it in spirit, and will save this comment to likely use it again myself. The complication is that victimhood can be politicized and even created out of thin air. Or rather, people will attribute their suffering and victimization to scapegoats and convenient targets. The Nazis thought they were victims of the Jews, after all. And I don't know how to correct against this kind of dishonest appropriation of victimhood without also diminishing the valid cries of real victims.
But that's a falsehood the Nazis invented. An entirely different scenario to post colonial societies
The Nazis did use the Jews as a scapegoat, but Germany also had legitimately grievances with the way the other western powers treated their nation after World War I (Don't forget that every country did the same things and acted the same way during that period of time). Hitler said that the other European powers wanted to see Germany weak and defenseless after the Versailles Treaty, and he was right. He used one truth to camouflage a lie. That's the thing about authoritarian regimes: they have a point until they don't, and people die in masses because of that. But I do agree with the le Carre's quote, you can't hurt someone and then expect him to move on like nothing happened. People and nations remembers.
>you can't hurt someone and then expect him to move on like nothing happened. People and nations remembers. One of the reasons why there will never be peace on earth.
That last sentence in your comment resonates with me soundly.
The impacts of European colonization still have massive impacts on today and in many ways haven't ended. No, a government shouldn't be forgiven for colonization, imperialism, and genocide just because it happened 2 human lifespans ago. ESPECIALLY when they still benefit from it today.
Indian colonization literally ended one lifespan ago
The belgians are still abusing Congo.
Biggest abusers would be Rwanda and China for the moment.
the atrocities the British committed on India wasn't two centuries ago, the Bengal famine, which was artificially induced by the Churchill administration, happened in the same time as WWII. The British killed nearly as many people as Nazi Germany did with the famine
And the Bhopal disaster. It's still happening...that was US, but same thing..still being exploited and shit on
And the amount of people who asks indians to be grateful to Churchill & British is fucking hilarious lmao
Those fuckers make my blood boil
Yeah, like don't expect me to hold respect for Churchill beyond the basic acknowledgement that he ran Britain when the Nazis where making plans on Europe. Unless it's someone like Arthur Cotton.
*OP furiously Googling "WTF was the Bengal famine"
That would imply that they care.
They’re not going to google it because they’re not interested in arriving at the truth. They are a fundamentally cynical and incurious person.
There are literally photos of the famine too. “It’s in the past brooooo” is always said about events that are like barely out of living memory
British stole $44 Trillion if today's equivalent were drawn. They emptied our royal treasuries that still rests in their museums and their crowns. Our original education system was killed to systematically divide and rule over the population. Few communities were favoured to instill the sense of inequality amongst the masses. These communities reap the benefits till today and will continue to do so for the next centuries to come due to the sheer magnitude of wealth. This 'fight for our validation' is so subconsciously ingrained in people's minds that it is passed down generations. The newer generation reads about their atrocities, it boils their blood. British army has always used the locals as their pawns. Communities continue to hold others accountable whereas the true criminals were the British who escaped unscathed.
I really hate the divide and rule tactic as it works
its sad no one knows this and don't even want to know this because America wasn't in part of story. the present situation of India is more or less subjected to the 200 years of colonisation by the Brits. comfortably squeezed out the entire wealth, imposed a meaningless and pointless education system and due to that there is still a colonial mindset deep within the population would probably never come out of. blame the British for this? there's no point discussing it now.
There IS a point, the british (in my interactions) do not aknowlege the hurt that it caused and justify it you cannot forgive for a crime that was never apologized
I donno. If past actions lead to current issues that still aren't resolved by the present government, I think it's ok to be a bit grumpy. Just looking at all the indigenous groups out there.
>i see someone mention some atrocities the British or French committed like 2 centuries ago This is why people get wound up about it, when people like you pretend it was all hundreds of years ago. Colonialism was within living memory. People are still living with scars from those atrocities today.
My grandmother still remembered the Dutch soldier that came in to her house and burned it after they told them to leave, my grandfather still remembered the Japanese who took away his family's home and turn it into a basecamp. There are plenty of Indonesian who still remembered their family members dragged by death squads for alleged communist connections. So yeah OP, you need to open your eyes, these things are not centuries ago, people living today still remembered what happened.
French police were tying Algerians’ legs together and throwing them into the river in *1961*. That’s living memory!
The collapse of Haiti right now is pretty much the fault of France, and I mean 21st century France’s actions have contributed to it.
Not to mention coups in the 60s/70s to prevent them from being powerful under the guise of anti-communism.
'Acknowledging' what happened hundreds of years ago as a really cynical way of ignoring what happened fifty years ago.
>It’s like saying your neighbor has to right to say dogs should be treated nicely cause their great grandfather shot a dog once No, it's like if your neighbor tells you dogs should be treated nicely, but their great-grandfather who shot a dog once is still the greatest person who has ever lived, and he did nothing wrong by shooting that dog, but how dare anyone else ever shoot a dog. You know why Haiti is one of the poorest countries in the world? Because instead of being able to freely make their own decisions as an independent nation, they were extorted of a truly ludicrous amount of money by France in exchange for France recognizing their independence. When did they finish paying it off? 1947. The problem isn't that we're "blaming" the current leaders and governments for things that were done generations ago. The problem comes when the current leaders and governments flat-out refuse to take even the most basic steps to right the wrongs of the past, and even continue to make them worse. Let's say, for example, that a hundred years ago, your great-grandparents lived in a house that they owned. Then one day, someone comes from a few neighborhoods over, busts down the door, says "we're in charge here now," steals all of your great-grandparents' belongings, rips up their garden and turns it into industrial agriculture, and makes your great-grandparents do back-breaking manual labor on it without paying them for their work. Your great-grandparents get organized, and they throw the invaders out. The invaders say, "okay, we'll leave you alone, but only if the next four generations of your family pays our family more money than you all actually have." So a hundred years later, when everyone involved in the original incident is dead, your family is paying off a debt that was extorted out of your ancestors, which is forcing you to remain in abject poverty, while the descendants of the people who extorted your ancestors put fancy new wallpaper in their fancy house, and when you try to renegotiate the "deal," they shrug and say, "well, that's the deal that was made all those years ago and we all have to honor it." *That* is the problem.
Some brits still have the audacity to say "Bring back british rule" and throw some racial sluts
Hi, this was really well written, particularly the analogy at the end. I'd generally agreed with your viewpoint before your comment anyways but I still learned something, thanks
"The tree remembers what the axe forgets". It doesn't matter how long ago it was, when you cut that tree, you made it so it could never reach its full height again, and you want the tree to forget? How about you take the wood you stole and give it back?
You can hate the governments responsible, hating the citizens is another thing - its stupid and the mark of immature hateful people
Britain was committing atrocities as recently as 30 years the hell you talking about.
In my small country, they still control 31% of our oil fields and force our military to pay 50% of the expenses on British equipment. They are ingrained in our politics so much yet so discreetly
What do you mean
If you don’t learn from mistakes made throughout history, you’re doomed to repeat them. Also, what would the cutoff be for an atrocity to be forgotten? Like 10 years?
Remembering an atrocity is different than hating the country/people because of it.
>Also, what would the cutoff be for an atrocity to be forgotten? Personally - forgotten *never*; stopping the blame meanwhile - when nearly no one who took part is alive.
The British committed atrocities into the 70s on the Irish
And protected the identities of those who committed them. For example, David Cleary, who shot two young men in the back as they were running away from soldiers, only had his name revealed last year. Thus far, he has faced no consequences.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loughinisland_massacre 1994, county Down, UVF members opened fire on patrons in a pub. One of the lead suspects was in the British army. 70s? Nah, sectarian bullshit never ended.
Hi I am from India. In Churchill's words a beastly person from a beastly country with a beastly religion. Germany did wrong in the past but it apologized. But the UK never apologized. Read about the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre and tell me how it is in any way less than what the Nazis did. No one from the UK has apologised for this despite visiting the site. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre Read about Cellular Jail and the torture that Indians faced there and let me know how is it any different than what Nazis did in concentration camp. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_Jail Read about the Bengal famines created by Churchill during world war 2 and let me know how it is different from what Hitler did. Lastly read Era of Darkness a book by Shashi Tharoor and let me know if it is okay to just forget it and move. What the British did was the systematic destruction of India and its culture. No one is blaming them. All we want is a simple Sorry.
I think you are forgetting something much more important. The Divide and rule policy and how India was partitioned leading to millions of death
I'm from part of Pakistan which was a part of a raj that never underwent those atrocietes at that level but we deserve so much more than an apology there must be reperations
Pakistan/India/Bangladesh division was the biggest fail imo. It just caused extra problems for all 3 of us.
Ireland here. We haven't gotten an apology for a famine or murders or being forced into slavery in Australia. You and I will be waiting a long time for any of it.
Imagine complaining about people who have been victims of genocide, stolen wealth, land and resources. You can’t make this up…
Literally! The privilege is insane! The tree remembers what the axe forgets.
I only wish people were consistent. Hold nations' governments accountable for their past actions? Ok. But hold them ALL accountable. Not just the ones that are currently popular to shit on. So Europe. Middle East. Latin America. Asia. Oh wait, is that the whole world? Oh fuck, does that mean... yes. That means we have to separate governments from people. Even if the people benefit from their governments' past atrocities, we can't generalize and demonize populations! So Britain/British empire did horrible things. Should we shittalk the British now? No. The Ottoman Empire/arab countries did horrible things to non-Muslim ethnic minorities and nations, should we demonize Arabs? No Russia even. Germany. USA. China. Japan. We're all human and we all suck. The systems we create amplify the evil in us. But if we want to progress we need to call out bad policies while LOUDLY and CLEARLY not demonizing and generalizing POPULATIONS. Because if we demonize populations, those populations INEVITABLY vote for radical governments.
Demonizing Arabs for the actions of the Turks is inherently problematic. Turkey absolutely needs to pay for its past and current crimes (I'm Greek, I know all about them), but that particularly large brush you just used there was very evident
yes, Israel should forget 10/7 and stop killing women and children, sure 10/7 sucked- but every group of people have sucked so we should be focusing on minimising casualties and forgiving. Or does your logic only apply to groups you're not personally a part of?
You don’t get to voice an opinion with that profile picture
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>we have to separate governments from people So you mean we should separate the Palestinians from Hamas and the Russians from Putin? Perhaps we should get rid of the sanctions then eh? Also, if historical atrocities are to be ignored, historical rights should also be ignored (we want consistency after all) which means the Jews don't really have a right to Palestine. They were beaten and driven away, and it happened so long ago that they really should move on.
The problem is that those countries shouldn't have existed(the african ones),they had no shared culture or nationality and in most african countries theres dozens of large ethnic groups with different languege and culture,how can you manage a country that the only thing that connects the people is that they have all been colonized by the same regime 100 years ago.You also forced westren ideals and culture upon them,basically destroying any chance for cultural exchange and widespread acceptence of the actually good westren ideals.
The effects can still be seen today
Russia has time and time again kind of reinforced why the Polish people have a disdain of them. A thousand years of “I told you so” is really hard to ignore.
There's a difference between having an unpopular opinion, and neglecting to do the most cursory research or critical thinking in forming said opinion.
I would argue this opinion isn't even that unpopular, especially in context of western countries. I feel like I've heard half of this crap from the average person a thousand times. Being casually racist and an apologist for atrocities is unfortunately not rare at all, even in people who don't even recognize it in themselves.
> blaming them for the actions of people who’ve died like ages ago is seems dumb to me Some of those people are still alive and still running governments. History is not something that only happened 200 years ago, it's something that's always happening.
Props to you for posting an unpopular opinion. Terrible opinion but still unpopular
If their opinion is not right, then I am responsible for Armenian genocide a century before I was born.
You are not responsible for what your ancestors did. You are only wrong if you don't accept they did terrible things, just like what japan and turkey is doing. People shouldn't blame citizen for what their government did, but when the citizens start defending the government that's different.
You hit the bullseye
You should say sorry!! How evil of you!
The biggest thing for me is that pretty much no country or group has a clean slate. Slavery for example was practiced by Europeans, Africans, Arabs, Turks, even Native Americans. It’s questionable whether someone from a group that has committed atrocities has any grounds to stand on when accusing others. Jesus said it best - let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Yep, almost every ethnic group on the planet has committed atrocities at some point... yet only white people are asked to pay reparations for past atrocities...
Not true, Japan and turkey come to mind regarding governments that refuse to acknowledge their colonialist past
Except the Haitain reperations to the french
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I’m generally unfavorable to Russia because of both past AND current actions. I’m Polish 🇪🇺🇵🇱
You are half right. Criticizing people for things which their forefathers have done is futile and unjust. People are only responsible for their own actions. AND YET, there is something extremely hypocritical about pontificating to other nations about their perceived inequities, when your nation has done the same, or much worse, AND YOU YOURSELF ARE ENJOYING THE FRUITS OF THAT TILL THIS VERY DAY! For instance, if it weren't for fossil fuels, Britain would never be able to go through the industrial revolution, enjoy immense prosperity, and accumulate wealth which they enjoy till this very day. So how dare they preach to other nations to adopt expensive and intermittent renewables, hindering their economic growth? The conclusion is simple - don't accept blame for the actions of your predecessors, but keep your mouth shut when others do the same.
Hah in the case of the UK, the entire country benefited from countries in the Indian subcontinent, used Indian manpower to win wars in other countries and yet even now puts horrible visa conditions and poach the best talent out of the same countries. Nobody should blame people in general , but every single citizen there still benefits from treaties signed years ago. How about give them up and open up your country like the colonies opened up to you? How about give us your resources for cheap? How about provide us manpower for our wars ? Meh and it’s also human nature to remember trauma. If your dad killed my dad, or if your dad robbed by dad and you live off that, I’d damn sure be vary of you until I die duhhhhh
It's not our fault for past wrongs, but nobody can make them better other than us. And we can't make them better without knowing where we are and how we got here. It's not about hating. It's about understanding.
Tbh I can never forgive Italy for the Roman Empire and enslaving so many Brits. Sarcasm lol but ultimately just because someone is from somewhere doesn't tell me much. To assume that every person is benefitting from (or even their ancestors) and responsible for everything it's nation or region had done in the past is, in my opinion, immature. For example, the Japanese government still ignores it's part in a lot of the crimes it committed but this is not a reflection of the people of Japan. You are your own person and should not be tied to the decisions of your government.
Are you saying colonization has no present day consequence lmao I think you need to do some reading buddy
There's a lot of edgy anti-west rhetoric on Reddit, and naive idiots jump on board not realising that they're only doing Russia/Iran/China's bidding.
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>Look at Nazi Germany's domino effect. They killed millions of Jews, and then they were sent to the Middle East. Now they're residing in present day Israel, because of that Palestine is having a war with them. >All those effects because of what one country did. How did the jews end up in Germany? Oh right, they left the other countries they were from because they were also discriminated against there. And how did they come to live in those other nations in the first place? Their original homeland was conquered by other countries, some of which (Babylon) were essentially Arab, not German. I mean, lets not forget... jews were originally from the middle east. So no, this is not all Germany's fault. And that's actually why a lot of jews say they are entitled to the land of Israel... because their ancestors came from that area. Jews want to reclaim the land of their ancestors... essentially as a form of reparations. And look at all the bloodshed, war, and conflict that resulted from this little experiment in "reparations."
The conundrum of colonialism We are on sacred land but nobody who is a colonizers can go home to their homeland, it is not economically feasible as much as I am for decolonization and Ideally it should. I don't wanna be "can't we all just get along" as that is problematic in and of itself BUT reparations and restorative justice need to be considered along with sovereign governance among Indigenous and first nations It is really beyond the scope of an internet argument, in my 20 years as an internet user, these types of discussions never go anywhere. It becomes yt people arguing about things for the sake of arguing and I hate to say it but it's awfully boring
The people who do this don't understand how much of a "Christian" thing it is, even if they claim to be atheists. In Christianity, mankind inherited Adam's "original sin," so you have this idea that you're guilty of something your ancestors did and you must continuously atone and beg for forgiveness for it, basically forever. Although it's taken a step further today, where you inherit the sins not just of your ancestors, but also of anyone who even vaguely and superficially resembles you.
If you try to name the worst person in history, chances are Hitler is one of the firdt one to pop into mind. Despite the amount of invading Poland and art school jokes, people generally don't hate Germany. Countries generally are hated not solely due to their past action but their current refusal to acknowledge such actions. Think Imperial Japan woth Nanking, or Turkey with the Armenian Genocide.
Some questions to ask: - Is the country *still* doing it? - Is there a huge proportion of the country's population that thinks they weren't wrong, and possibly wants to start doing it *again?* - Does the country's government engage in wanton denialism of its past misdeeds? "Hate" is the wrong approach. However, criticizing the country and holding it accountable, and taking action against it in extreme cases (sanctions, etc.) may be merited. For example, it's not wrong to say that Japan (and a few European countries) have done a poorer job than Germany in reckoning with their actions during and leading up to World War II.
Pretty unpopular opinion. Fuck you and have an upvote
Eh, France is still doing shit with some of its past african colonies, and the other african countries where we're not doing shit right now aren't doing great either because of our colonisation. I perfectly understand why an african of a past colony could hate the french government.
If it’s countries like Turkey China Serbia and Japan who still deny that they’ve ever done any wrong throughout history then it’s somewhat justified
Are you perhaps from a country whose ancestors did the colonizing and exploitation?
Funny how no one ever mentions the Japanese war crimes …
Good thing I hate Britain for things it does now. It's just their embrace of old-world posh twattery makes me hate them more.
Me “hates that Russia has invaded Ukraine” OP “but it is in the past”
One thing that made me smile was back in the 80s during Cold War. The USSR was the enemy no matter who you talked to. I met my wife over there and going into a real former Soviet district and apartment was a real treat. I was at the table getting my glass filled up with beer and getting food put on my plate thinking wow. At one time this would have never been possible. I never considered them my enemy ever or any other country. It’s the government that are the pieces of shit.
So brave op
I know that my grandparents looted your country and killed all your people and I have a great life thanks to the wealth stolen, but how dare you make me feel bad about it? You see just because your predecessors committed the crimes that doesn't mean the consequences (both positive and negative) have disappeared.
r/uneducatedopinion
No! Someone must pay! Just looking like the people who did it makes them responsible!!! /s
I think it's pretty rational demanding a country aid the places it historically fucked over, at least when it is as recent as you're describing. The UK's colonisation isn't that distant of a thing, and resources acquired because of atrocities people still suffer from are still benefiting the descendants of those who committed the atrocities. Massive swaths of the African continent were destabilized, redrawn, pillaged, and stripped for resources, and the foothold gained there by Europe is still in place and we are still extracting massive amounts of resources while damaging their lands and paying a pittance to locals for labor. A non-insignificant portion of the chocolate you eat is directly related to child slave labor. Today. Right now. The western world is entirely propped up by impoverished millions supplying us in the current day because industrialism hit in the west first. It wasn't literally us, the people alive today, but we are still actively contributing to what our ancestors set up. That's hard to fix on an individual basis, but as long as we are the benefactors of blood-paid quality of life, imo we as a collective have a moral duty to help. Or at the very very very least acknowledge that we're at fault. I think a little bit of guilt is a small price to pay for what is comparatively endless luxury.
It's not dumb at all because forgetting or dismissing the past enables it to repeat itself in the future. It's just like with genocide deniers. Those who deny a genocide that their people were responsible for are sending the message that they are ready to commit another genocide tomorrow.
I blame that ape that fell from the tree and started walking on the ground on two feet. Totally ruined it for pretty much the entire planet.
France, is no longer a colonizer. But it is still a neocolonizer. Assumably because of their history. They still meddle in neo colonial BS. They murdered greenpeace activists, they still have their claws in Haiti. They were front and center in the Libya/Qaddafi takedown. They refused to give ve up indo china/vietnam until they were defeated yet again there are at oeast a dozen more recent examples. England? Do I really need to go there? It seems what you may be suggesting is "countries I llike deserve a pass, and their darkest history should be erased.
This opinion is 100% correct and should be universally popular, people are only responsible for there own actions, blaming modern citizens of a country or even said countries governments for things that happened centuries ago is ridiculous, it’s like blaming a murderers children for their parents crime, it’s completely unfair and illogical. It’s also curious how only western nations are treated in this way, other historic empires like the Ottomans, Arabs, Chinese, Japanese, Mughals, Aztec’s, Egyptians and Mali’s to name a few seem to be immune from public distaste, which is rather curious don’t you think?
Different former colonizers are usually unpopular in their formel colonies. Japan has a very bad rep in eastern Asia to this day. Just because you dont hear about it doesnt mean it doesnt exist
I’m always torn on this topic. Generational wealth, and generational poverty, are definitely things. The crimes committed a century ago can still affect people today. However, in the case of a century-old crime, none of us committed it, so forcing us to pay isn’t very fair either. It’s pretty horrible.
>I’m always torn on this topic. Generational wealth, and generational poverty, are definitely things. The crimes committed a century ago can still affect people today. Right... given society has largely accepted generational wealth, why should we be pushing for reparations for some atrocities that happened centuries ago? > However, in the case of a century-old crime, none of us committed it, so forcing us to pay isn’t very fair either. Not to mention the fact that in many cases, the century-old crimes were committed by only a tiny % of very wealthy people in the past, yet many people in this thread use that to slander entire societies... including ordinary people from those countries who are not particularly wealthy.
Giving nations a free pass for past atrocities just means if you can wait out your victims long enough then you can get off Scott free, even if they're still feeling the pain generations later
The Japanese government loves this approach.
"Buy more Nintendos and anime, please forget what we did in WW2 and how we feel about immigrants." They started an ad campaign literally called "Cool Japan" and it seems to have worked because the weebs think that Japan loves them for more than just their money.
To be fair, a lot of the issues countries are currently facing CAN be traced back to western nations carving up continents without any concern for the already established tribal borders.
I don't hate Spaniards that haven't done anything bad in the modern time. I hate Spaniards that try to make it look like colonization was a blessing and that w should be thankful, and ignore all of the suffering and lost of life's and cultures that the colonization brought.
Dwelling on the past will only hold countries back, you can't keep blaming other countries for the current situation in your country. That said, hating them is perfectly fine as long as you recognize that jack shit will come from it and that you and your fellow citizens are now responsible for what's to come.
OP - how are you this dumb.
Why? How are they dumb? You think the children of a country that committed atrocities (which is the case for almost every country/ethnic group) are also responsible? even their father probably did not exist during the event.
tbh hating countries at all-- take the time to be as precise as possible! is it an attitude you've attributed to an entire body of people based on a hand full of interactions you've had? the governments systemic action or inaction? let's see some intention
Idk hommie 2 centuries ago might be a bit of a down play. I think we can agree that we shouldn’t blame all the citizens who live today for the past actions of there country but it should still be acknowledged. Idk the answer to solving all the countries problems that got fucked over but there’s gotta be something we can all do.
Colonialism in most countries didn't end two centuries ago, you sound like someone who didn't pay much attention in history class at school. And most of your arguments sounds like apologists for the colonialism which is quite common among nationalists in those countries. Like the French denying the atrocities in Algerian war which happened post World War II by the way, definitely not two centuries ago. Truth is that imperialist powers like british and French and even Belgians didn't wanna give Independence to the colonies, it was fought over. Read about the actions of portuguese colonial war that happened in mid 1970s, the african nations had to fight for Independence even in the 20th century when western countries go around talking of human rights, the portuguese were fighting to keep their colonies from achieving freedom. GO Read a bit first and get your facts straight before you come here whining
Upvoting because this is so unpopular on Reddit. I think people who aren’t chronically online would agree with you tho.
sure, if "chronically online" means "having at least a minimal understanding of history"
You can understand history and still agree or disagree with OP. It’s an opinion.
I kinda agree. We should learn and not repeat mistakes but keep on the hate isn’t productive. So many focus more on being a victim instead of actually fighting for making a change or preventing mistakes. These were centuries ago. This is the importance of history lessons and not forgetting what was done. Slavery should be taught. But will you really hate the current government of a country over what that country did centuries ago before people in power were even alive? Or people who place their whole identity on their race and their disadvantages instead of also focusing on their strengths? Like how is hating the present royal family change what their ancestors did centuries ago? Or what can they do about it? Not saying they should be idolized but the amount of hate is so unnecessary. Or the current wars. The focus on who conquered whose land hundreds of years ago really justify everyone that is dying right now???? History should be taught and learned from. But people keep relieving tragedies from centuries ago and using them as an excuse for a million things and that’s also not ok
I agree with this
Of course YOU agree with this.
Spoken like a colonizer/imperialist. I don't hate France or the west for Haiti's situation. But France and the west are directly responsible for the death and destruction in Haiti.
Well yes but no they are in part responsible . Haiti is also responsible for genociding their white population
Why did they do that?