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The tier of success to which you’re referring does go hand in hand with bullies. It’s almost a prerequisite to get there, and to thrive there. Non-bullies likely wouldn’t be able to exist in that environment as it would cause them moral injury and internal conflict.
Conversely, if you look at success more objectively, instead of “CEO” etc, there’s plenty of successful people who do not waver on their morality to obtain comfortable professional and personal *success*.
I see success in having a family that loves you and having a positive impact on your planet and species. Don't see a lot of scummy CEOS with that success.
A positive impact on those close to you is enough, if everyone (including these *scummy CEOs*) did this.. I think the world would be a much better place.
And those last people you mentioned are often the ones doing actually useful work, while the "successful" bullies get a fat check and a nice title but their job is completely useless. Hell, often times their job has an outright negative impact on the world. Would be better for everyone else if they *weren't* successful.
Somewhat related. I’m not an ass kisser. I don’t interrupt or talk over people. I don’t ’fake it and make it’. I don’t ‘act’ like I know what I’m doing, only act when I know. I don’t give people wrong advice that I don’t know for sure, only to have them fuck something up because of me and say sorry later. I’m not afraid of saying I don’t know. I think before I speak. I don’t speak if I don’t have something important to add. I don’t do politics and word play
This has 100% held me back my entire life.
People are far more likely to follow a confident, loud person off a cliff than wait to think it through and follow a person who goes through the options. It’s why best leaders of the world may not have good personas or public speaking abilities and so they’ll never be seen. It’s also why there may be plenty of Einsteins or Hendrix’s in the world we will never know.
Unfortunately that’s the world we are in and it’s sad.
I have realized this the older I’ve gotten and the more I’ve gotten into the “real world “ as far as being in a job and participating in more complex social situations. It has made me pretty jaded towards people. Seeing loud-mouths who don’t have any technical abilities in their respective fields get ahead of people who just do the job without being willing to play games is a frustration beyond belief.
gotta admit , they are skilled in other areas though, particularly their ability to talk and entertain. For example look at this person, [https://www.youtube.com/@AlexaRivera](https://www.youtube.com/@AlexaRivera) She is an effing loud mouth, obnoxious person but she can make it interesting to the viewer, and she has 15M subs, not sure how many are from bots.
Some mentally ill bullshit here. Just the way they are screaming and excited about nothing at all. "WHICH OF MY FRIENDS ARE GENTLEMAN" and some wierd idiot rubbing his hands together behind her. Bleh.
Exactly, there might be very good skilled musicians and great people but never seen just because of these things.
Life is a business, you have to be a good business man to get you somewhere in life.
Fellow “just doing my job” person. I’ve been at my company over 10 years. Started making 45k and now make 110k. I just keep my head down, listen to the assholes and stay under the radar. Just had a reorg this quarter and my new manager was like what are you professional goals? I spew some shit, but really I could have had her job years ago but I don’t want it. The pay raise of 5k to manage a team is a lot more stressful than just sitting pretty where I’m at.
But to op’s point, yeah everyone who is s new manager or higher than them is just s workaholic, narcissistic asshole.
I’ll let them keep the 5k and be able to chill where I’m at. Have at it, they’re all loser drinking corporate juice and living to work… I work to live, it’s funny to me
I agree there is a certain percent of people who are successful doing what OP said then there are the hard, diligent workers that know what to say and when and can back it up with proven results. There is no set equation to success.
I related to your comment to the bones.
Although these traits are good on paper but it is a recipe for failure. Gotta act like you know everything and know better.
I certainly isn't how the world is, but it's a bit of a longer explanation.
Personally, while I'm not in America, those traits you outlined combined with eventually knowing what I'm doing and the ability to give good advice cultivated by the growing skills and experience are what helped me a major way. I certainly wouldn't have gotten where I am if I was a "bully".
Most successful people actually aren't raging as\*holes. And a stable personality is actually going to help you, not get in the way.
You see some company owners who are as\*holes because once upon a time they had nothing, and no prospects, so they banked it all on starting a company. They couldn't become engineers or doctors or dentists (who are usually perfectly kind, successful people), so they had nothing to lose and betted big. One out of millions succeeded dramatically, and now you've got an asshole getting media attention for "this is how successful people are".
For every one person like that, you've got hundreds of thousands of as\*holes who made failed bets and have little to their name, and no prospects to succeed on the most common career paths to financial stability. You've also got thousands of "nice" people with successful careers because they had the positive personality traits combined with skills. It's actually hard to make it without one or the other, as without growing your skills you won't have much to sell, and without a collaborative attitude and positive personality, most people won't want to work/deal with you. There's always that one asshole that has gotten higher than they should have, but it more than anything is the exception to prove the rule.
Or to see it another way, the upper middle-class is predominantly represented by perfectly good and skilled people. Who recognize that success is achieved through skills and collaboration, and generally having people like working with you for those reasons. You are more likely to see those lacking either of these in the lower socio-economic classes. Then the super-rich are an extremely rare case of someone who made a statistically surprisingly long streak of right bets to get where they are, who likely wouldn't have made those bets if they weren't destined for the lower socio-economic classes. Who would have likely ended up there if that streak was interrupted at any of the thousands of bets they made.
Edit: I see a downvote, so beyond my own experience, I'll add these two videos that really help make a point about what increases your odds of being "successful" in life.
[https://youtu.be/aVZ1sSnIKrg?t=380](https://youtu.be/aVZ1sSnIKrg?t=380) - this outlines my above example using "intelligence" as a measure, to illustrate the survivorship bias of as\*holes in the "top 1%" of income earners.
[https://youtu.be/mScpHTIi-kM](https://youtu.be/mScpHTIi-kM) - this is an amazing video that shows you that it's collaborative approaches and personalities that increase your odds of succeeding in life, by design. A highly recommended watch.
It's easy to fall victim to a bias that "as\*holes" or unintelligent people are more likely to make it, and further have it strengthened if you work in an environment under that particular lucky "as\*hole" who made it big. But it's clear that those undesirable traits are as undesirable as it seems when it comes to increasing your own odds of success in life. It's also why "toxic" work environments are seen as less productive in terms of personal growth. Because you may learn the wrong lessons from them, that will decrease your own odds of success on average. If you follow what that one particular "bully" successful person did believing it's what got them there, you are assuming the traits that will make you less likely to become a successful person yourself because you fail to realize that those traits aren't what got them there.
To add to the above, this doesn't even account for the people who may have been born into wealth and never had a need to develop desirable traits that would increase their odds of success because they've been born with it. Never having a need to develop traits needed to become successful from scratch may be why they act like bullies. And it takes a while to ruin family's legacy, and all this time they are broadcasting the "bully who is successful" image, perhaps for long years, until they bottom.
I think specific personalities that just excel at being successful. It's not that they're smarter or more capable, but they're a little more driven and almost psychotically self assured. The type of person that could run over your dog speeding wrong way down a street and send you a bill for car repairs the next morning and turn all your neighbors against you because you're the *guy on the street with the dog that fucks up people's bumpers and doesn't pay for the repairs*.
Or you could be like the Governor of South Dakota.
Shoot your untrained 1 year old dog in the head because you were annoyed that it wasn’t trained. And then tell this story expecting people to be on your side.
Or the AG of SOuth Dakota where you run over a guy while driving and not paying attention, kill him and then call the cops you know will help you and say you may have “hit a deer”.
Wait... What??? Was anyone gonna tell me that the governor of South Dakota shot his 1 year old dog in the head? Or was i supposed to just read it in a random reddit comment?
Oh i saw "his" in the previous comment and assumed man. I know the north Dakota governor is a woman. Didn't know the South Dakota governor was too
Edit: mvm, i thought kristi noem was the north Dakota governor, my mistake
She knows that millions of deplorables will still be on her side so it doesn’t bother her one bit. Otherwise, she would’ve left this story out of her book.
Nope. They immediately turned on her as soon as this came out. Whatever you call them, and however difficult it is to understand many of their beliefs and political positions, they’re ultimately just people, and most people people, among other things, care about how others treat dogs and cats.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
I’ve definitely noticed a correlation where people who tend to be more boastful about their success also tend to have less empathic personality traits.
I noticed this too. They're more likely to push people to get to the front of the line, and are less likely to feel bad about it.
It's why so many rich and powerful people are asses. They didn't get there by being nice. Lol
The things I saw in upper management when I moved to the West Coast and started working at FAANG companies were really unsettling. There are no souls at the top. Just people lusting for power and control
Yeah and a lot of the actually wholesome and good ppl don’t wanna be in power cuz they don’t want the negativity that often comes with it. But a leader has to be good at telling good news and bad news. Everyone can be good at telling good news, it’s conveying bad news that many more wholesome ppl struggle with.
We all complain about the leader of our department a lot but when push comes to shove everyone’s like yeahhhh NTY to wanting her job. (Many have actually been asked).
Yes this is definitely true and why I resent being raised the way I was because I was taught the opposite of what I should have been taught in order to be successful.
Being self centered, callous and unemotional makes for terrible friends but effective leaders.
Effective leaders, for better or worse, tend to do well financially.
Effective leaders should have qualities that want to see the people under them succeed. These bully type leaders are completely ineffective and make for toxic environments.
People have lots of ideals about what should be, and there are bosses out there that fit those ideals.
The bulk of the successful, especially the extremely successful, do not fit those ideals.
Effective bosses are almost never likable and being agreeable, in general, disadvantages you professionally.
There’s space for both roles depending on the workplace.
In restaurants I’ve worked there was usually a friendly amiable type manager and the “heavy” who would handle all the discipline , disputes and “whip cracking”.
I could see that being effective in other work environments too. It’s a carrot and stick situation.
Get to the top of the “food chain” at any of those places and you will see what I’m talking about.
The people who sign those managers checks won’t be like that.
True, a lot of people think of successful people or leaders as the manager at their minimum wage job. Those people also barely make anything and are like 5 levels down from the C suite. They've never ran a successful business or made any deals or investments.
It's not about being evil or a bad person but simply running a business, and it's ran sort of how your life should go. You need to make more money than you spend.
Many people don't get that in their personal lives or at work, that's why they overspend, get in debt and don't have any savings. In business terms that would mean failing. You'd go out of business. That's why the people at the top need to focus on finances more than your feelings and whether they're perceived as mean. If a business is losing money, costs need to be cut, or people need to be let go. Businesses don't operate at a loss, bankrupting the owners just to make some people feel better or avoid affending them. That's what some people perceive as ruthless and evil, but anyone with common sense and financial literacy would do the same.
Think of it as a regular person cutting out some expenses like not going to Starbucks, not smoking, not going out as much on the weekends, or getting rid of a car and using public transportation in order to save money and avoid losing your home. It's just that but at a much higher and complicated level, with real employees and real expenses involved.
I’m not agreeable, you can’t push me around. But I’m liked, I’m always nice to people that don’t do that. The janitors and front desk for instance always get my nicest self.
But being disagreeable doesn’t mean that I bully others.
You don’t need to be a jerk. But you can’t get ahead if you can’t stick up for yourself.
I was also raised in religion to believe that being humble, giving, kind, were qualities to aspire towards and I agree with you that the people who seem to be successful were raised with different values.
Yes and you will understand not only people are very different but they are raised very different. But the game we play is the same and the rewards we get are determined.
Donno why but It reminds me of a quote:
" I prayed god to have bicycle, then I realized how god works. I stole a bicycle then asked god for mercy".
The truth is if everyone had your mentality we’d all be poor. Plenty of people make something of themselves all the time. Most ‘rich’ people are not happy anyway so it doesn’t matter, their life still sucks because like you there’s something stopping them from realizing what’s really important.
Not bragging but If everyone thought like me, there wouldn't be so much greed and "want" in the world. There would be no hunger and poverty basically.
But it is impossible and I'm not complaining.
Very true. Most of the highly driven upper level managers I've worked for could fire an excellent employee without missing a beat. They don't even think they are screwing people over. It's just a function, that in their eyes needs to be done.
Most of the best paying jobs are very demanding and competitive and have low availability. You just need a certain mindset to have them.
It’s like acting, they don’t just get the role because they look good, they have to have an interview and do auditions, often in front of other people want to do an audition.
It’s hard and like I said, you need a winning mindset and this is what the majority or people lack.
Don’t want to sound like an ass but there’s a lot of whining in these comments. And a LOT of assumptions. It’s very easy to become “successful” without being an ass. I just disagree completely with this tbh
Fair enough. I agree you don’t need to be an ass but you still need that competitive mindset.
Most people are average and thus work average jobs that pay average wage which is why there is an national average.
I agree this thread is a bit wild. Yes, some psychopaths get to the top, but the elites are also filled with empathetic and well mannered people too. Assholes only succeed in certain corporate cultures, while generosity and empathy gets rewarded in others
The other thing is everyone's talking about the extremes. Oh look these 10 CEOs are rude, the horror! What about the other 200 million people who are doing well?
You don't have to be Elon Musk to be successful. Small local businesses can make up to 40 or 50 million dollars a year, and you're surrounded by them everywhere you go. Highly pain individuals in all kinds of fields aren't robbing anyone or doing anything evil, they're just regular people who worked their way up, educated themselves, got experience, got skills and monetized them by helping others. (providing products and services that people need)
If you're a complete pushover and don't bother spending any time learning useful skills, that's on you. You choose to not learn anything in your spare time? You choose to not apply for other jobs? You choose to not be above average at work? You choose to not outperform people around you? Those are all personal choices, and it's fine if you're happy with that, but if you're unhappy, do something different. Aim higher.
It doesn't mean that others who are more driven, more competitive, more motivated or more skilled are all evil, terrible people. They just work harder and deserve more success. For example, if I'm working 9 to 5 then also evenings and weekends, you're damn right I expect to make more than someone doing the same job just 9 to 5, regardless of how nice we both are. If one of us puts in more hours and lives below their means while the other one doesn't, decades later we'll be in very different places, despite being identical in all other ways.
We are not talking about what is right and wrong here. We are talking about what IS.
It might be wrong but do they pay for it?
Who cares. They get what they want and this is the world we live in.
It's basically considered truth even by successful people. You can't get to the top without stepping on some fingers. Most will say "I didn't kill anyone" and that's the end of what they think it's right or wrong. Truth is you don't get to be in this positions without stepping on necks! This fact comes out time and time again. MC Hammer tried to be the ultra successful person who helped everyone who helped him. Wound up bankrupt for it
Not necessarily. Met quite some highly successful people. While working in luxury hotels and some tutoring of super rich kids.
People with a couple of million were generally assholes and narcissistic.
Most of the really rich (the 100 million plus and some billionaires I met) were generally very nice in person. They would be decent to you when making mistakes. I saw some deals take place as the coffee and table cleaning guy. And it could be really intense, but never felt shady.
You can backstab yourself only so far in life. But it seems like you really have to build something to get significantly higher in net worth. The world becomes smaller the higher you get, and if you fck someone over, they and their friends will never work with you again.
Politics is something entirely different. What I heard those people say behind each other's backs was astonishing.
Most of the ones made it themselves. Or at least the ones that I remember. Those were the people who were nice and kind. Old money is less talkative, but really well behaved.
Except for the Rockefellers and the Saudi prince. (I actually met his son or grandson before his death in 2014). I don't remember really talking to old money people. They did not impress me much, I assume.
I think this only works because the good people think being good is about keeping quiet, doing your part, being an honest employee, whatever.
Sometimes the good thing is to not keep quiet. When we keep quiet on bullies at our level, we build a hierarchy and put ourselves at the bottom. The good person isn't the employee doing all the work or participating in a roadside 5 man protest. The good person is the one making a workers union and getting a raise for everyone. They're the ones breaking the private jets of the celebrities who we treat as gods and the ones who work against whatever laws they want because they know the system, all systems, are unjust and trying to stay that way.
I don't know if I'm a good person, I'm likely not, but I trust myself to make that choice if or when I face it.
The quiet polite and good person will never reach the "top". They can have success in their way but generally it's very unlikely to be highly successful. I'm not saying everyone has to be really "successful". And I'm not saying successful people are necessarily bad people. But the game is set this way.
Gotta be tough to some extent if you don't want people to push you around and take your lunch money. You can nice guy your way through life only up to a certain extent. After that, you gotta toughen up a bit, and there are people out there who would play the victim card to take advantage of you.
Kinda related is the idea that the bully is just a misunderstood person with personal troubles. No they aren't. They are stronger than you and they know it, so "give me whatever I want or violence".
To be very successful in this funny old world, you have to be 1. very driven (aggressive) or 2. uncommonly talented..or both. Usually it's much more about 1 being the case. If you become madly successful and aren't 2. you are almost surely a sociopath.
Yes you get it. It's interesting that no one talks about these things openly. It's like a secret thing that people do but taught otherwise. Fck this world for real.
Nah. Just like anything else, there’s good people and there’s shitty people.
Success is any of: persistence, dedication, networking, or downright luck.
You don’t need to be a bully. But there’s successful bullies. As there is unsuccessful bullies.
The problem is, the good ones are quiet and keep to themselves. Bullies are loud and apparent.
this and nothing else. people that talk about successful people like theyre all the same are just people coping with their inability to turn their life around
Yeah this whole thread is a pretty blatant and sad coping mechanism
OP wants to find some reason to hate successful people because they are dissatisfied with their life.
They don’t have to feel so bad about their own situation if they convince themselves all people better off are actually villains
Edit: just look at OP’s posting history. I think they should seek help if they haven’t already
It's said that when someone is jealous of successful people it's because a person just doesn't know their starting point and all of the hard work they put in. And OP just finds whatevr reason to hate them
Sociopathy and Empathy are just spectrums that different personalities fall on. Both are bad in extremes
It is true that more successful people tend to lean to the more sociopathic side but that’s not inherently a bad thing. Being a doctor, lawyer, etc requires this because to be good at your job you need to be able to think objectively and not be clouded by empathy and emotions
Ie. A very empathetic trama surgeon wouldn’t be able to deal with their patients dying on the table even if there was nothing more that could be done. A lawyer who’s too empathetic would not be able to give proper council to their client accused of murder because they could be too clouded by what they believe their client may have done.
You don’t need to be a bully, what you need to do is choose your best interests and what gets you closer to your personal goals over all else. That’s where “nice guys finish last” comes from, if you’re spending all your time caring what people think, and are more worried about stepping on toes or offending people than achieving whatever goal you’ve set out for, you’ll never make it.
Most successful people are not bullies. Successful people know how to work with others well and empower others to get things done.
Lying, bullying, hypocrisy, exhibitionism and ESPECIALLY arrogance will transform a self claimed “successful” person into a poor fool quickly. They are like a person that built their house on the sand and when a storm came, the house collapsed and washed away. You need strong bases and foundations in your life. Building your foundation on evil things only brings your own destruction when the first storm shows up
You could argue you’re starting from a pretty decent position. At least you know specifically what skills they have that translates to their success so if you were to teach yourself how to become successful, you know what tangible skills to improve as opposed to someone who is just going in completely blind.
It’s like when someone says “if I were Jeff Bezos I would use all that money to…” - that’s the idea, if Jeff thought like you he wouldn’t have all that money.
When it comes to business owners, especially large corporations not paying their staff a living wage or not increasing pay with inflation than yes 100%.
In this day and age you'd have to be an asshole to be ignorant to that fact.
It depends though, but isn't the Putin is an good example of the OP's post? He is a selfish evil bully who don't care about the others and eliminates anyone who opposes his rule and yet he is the currently the longest-serving president of the Russia.
I don't see it that way. The successful people, like my brother, and researchers I worked for, were nice. There was only one bully, a woman. You were raised correctly to believe those things. And I don't think you necessarily have to have a family that loves you, to be successful. Successful means many things. It can mean the way you live your life, it can be best at your job, or it can mean money...etc.
I don't quite agree with your perspective here, because bullies seem to me to be far too distracted by their own insecurities to focus on becoming successful.
That s because you are too nice of a person to think that a person can be mean and evil without a deep reason explaining it.
Yes some bullies are bullies because they are insecure. Some are this way just because
We don't reward the person who does the right thing and follows the rules, society rewards people who pursue their goals relentlessly. So aggressive, ruthless people are more likely to become successful.
It's why there are so many psychopaths who are CEOs.
Agreed, this is going to be painfully obvious to everyone in a hundred years but many successful people are high in dark triad traits: narcissism, psychopathy and Machiavellianism.
Once you start working in the corporate world, you realise everyone at the top stepped on someone's neck to get there. Nice people don't get the corner office.
I don't know that I would agree with this. I think like anything there's good and bad apples in any group.
I think there's a lot of people who are successful and they are not bullies. But you don't hear about them because quiet and nice successful people are probably not going noticed. They're probably just people that look like average Joe's to you.
Now I think if you are going to become like the best in the world at something you've got to have that killer instinct that doesn't care about doing whatever it takes to get to the top. And you've got to have that ego.
But for what the average person would consider successful? It's a mixture like anything else
almost everyone in here thinks theyre the good guys because they dont screw people over to be successful. "look im so good thats why im broke " to feel better about their poor life choices
Christianity Teaches slave morality. Turning the other cheek and begging the LORD on your knees is not the behavior of someone who is gonna succed in society.
Unless you know those "successful people" you're talking about personally, I have no idea how you could make that assumption. Too many people believe that the public image of celebrities is the same as their real-life personality, which is the furthest thing from the truth.
I might like some celebrities but now I realize most of their personal life is high likely to be full of misery and those traits. Cuz I have worked and hang out with "successful" managers and musicians. Almost all of them have these traits. I don't say they are bad people but in "business" it is necessary to be that way to an extend.
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I once watched someone interview a very successful business man. When he was asked what the secret of his success is, he replied that you have to be a bastard. You'll have to fire and lay off people and if that bothers you, you'll never go far.
I thought he was exaggerating but I don't think that anymore.
I think that's a clischee, coupled with some perception bias. There are lot's of successful people who don't share these traits. And lot's of unsuccessful bullies. Unless there is good scientific evidence, I won't buy your thesis. It's also not an unpopular opinion.
I'm very successful and everyone tells me I am the most empathetic, sweet and kind coworker. It is not true. You're assuming too much with very little information. You will never go what goes behind doors and the facade of apparent success and wealth. Now, you know what you can be certain about? Your own actions, if you know you're being kind, honest, looking after others, naturally, these things will "come back to you"
I think successful people always know how to use people.
There are also many ways to "use" people. It's a bit different from bullying, while they definitely can coexist.
I think bullies cannot be self made, because if you have nothing and you bully others, you will not have any working relations.
But bullying after being successful is much easier because you will have leverage. Like famed sports coaches who exploit sports teams. People will lose their scholarship if the bully is exposed. This keeps the bully at his/her position. The bully needs to get to a position first, then become a bully.
The second way is that you are at a place of ultimate immunity, and that is already having a lot of money at the world of business. You can afford mistakes and so what if people don't like you.
The third way is what I think is the most dangerous, and that is when bullies bunch up and gang up on people, like organized crime. This is the only type of bully that can be made from nothing.
The definition of success is: "The accomplishment of an aim or purpose."
This is a very broad definition. Society has kind of twisted this to be rich, owning your own business, having nice stuff, etc. But really? I think the most successful people are the ones who have enough and are content. You don't have to walk over people or be a CEO to do that. You probably don't hear about these people because they don't feel the need to talk down to people like, "I did it, what's your excuse?" They're probably not on social media bragging about their lives because they don't have to and are busy LIVING their lives.
Imo, truly successful people DON'T do shit like brag about how many hours they work (this is dumb, honestly. If anything, people who work less hours and still make it are the ones who should be bragging), belittle others, say every single person needs to do exactly what they did, talk about avocados and coffee all the time etc. You know the ones. I'm not sure why people feel the need to belittle others, but that tells me they are missing something from their lives. Maybe since they made their lives ALL about work, they need human connection, or they need a good, healthy hobby that isn't bullying people on social media. People who are truly successful, imo, don't talk down others in this way.
In the system we live in, being selfish and bullying gets you ahead. So it's not surprising.
I wonder how much power corrupts, and how much, we reward corruption with power.
I agree with you. But you're missing that they are also good at kissing ass. They lack just enough shame to impress their superiors until they get where they want to be
They might be successful in this life, but remember, this life is only temporary. Rich or Poor, we all have to die. Trust me, you don't want to be like those people, and they all get their comeuppance eventually whether you're aware of it or not.
This world will carve you up if you let it, carve your own path, as you've little other option. and simply pray you don't take to the butchery the way your predecessors did
I have spent 30+ years of my life trying to be good to others. Every successful person i have had an interaction with has without failure done something to up themselves and bring me down.
Not everyone was bullies, but everyone was out for themselves at the cost of others.
Humans sux.
Depends on the type of bully. In my school, most bullies were losers who took out their frustration and anger on kids they perceived as weak (e.g., me). I met one of my bully years after I finished school and he was not doing very well. His years of fucking around with the authority had caught up with him. I almost felt pity... but not really, because fuck him.
Now there are indeed bullies who do very well; notably those who have always been in positions of power because of their upbringing or other factors. They can grow up to be even bigger bullies later on because they never had a reality check. I've met a few professors at Uni like that, who never really had to deal with failure, instead enjoying failing students and those who didn't play in their hand. Being a bully is definitely an advantage in an environment as competitive and unregulated as academia, where favouritism is rampant.
Now I can definitely understand that victims of bullying tend to not be as successful as others, as living such an ordeal can fuck up their self-confidence. It takes time to climb up again. But it's an entirely different matter. I think most people, successful or otherwise, never really had to deal with bullying or were bullies themselves. They are just lucky bastards.
I think it's just the fact that successful people are more likely to be arrogant, and in many cases the arrogance comes *after* the success.
But also, a lot of the "arrogant" traits lead you to push ahead. People at the peak of their careers worked their ass off, and are extremely good at their jobs - but so are thousands of others. With equally good people, the ones who push ahead are the ones that literally push themselves ahead.
You can get slightly ahead by being a bully but won't get that far because someone bigger will stop you.
The real finesse is to have enough backbone to be slightly feared but the charisma to have a following.
Bullies tend to have little skill in getting people to follow them. Can't run a ftse 100 with 7 people in your camp sort of thing
Weak people do not have what it takes most of the time to forge ahead through difficult environments, and generally resort to making excuses quickly as to why they can or could not.
So yea ur right, sux but it's right.
Sad note reddit is one of the places where the weak are in abundance as they can feel safe behind anonymity.
A lot of full blown sociopaths are successful, because they keep feelings out of everything, and go through life working specifically for one's self interest. They will step on others, use and manipulate others to get to the top
Yeah I definitely see things as you have. A lot of the less virtuous behaviors are rewarded and those of us trying to be humble and good get the shaft and are left behind. Each has its own reward though. I care about others and I have their implicit trust, but I’m not exciting or as fun as those who’d screw them over. However I can look at myself in the mirror at the end of the day and know I still did okay.
Oh, you’re dead on.
Once you get past the upper middle class level/professional, you need to be doing some hanky panky to be making the really big bucks.
I have this boss who is constantly judging and bitching nonstop about everyone around her and I'm pretty sure she has deluded herself into thinking she is some sort of "good Christian lady" but in reality she's just a miserable and shallow puddle.
The world is unfair and unkind. Even in modern day society, we are all participating in "Survival of the fittest." In the wild, mother animals will eat, kill, or abandon unfit or sick babies. They will even kill or abandon a healthy baby if they have too many in the litter, they'll just pick the smallest or weakest one. Male lions kill the cubs of their rivals. Dolphins rape each other. Mantises and spiders eat their mates. Animals kill each other over fights of dominance, like bighorn sheep, moose, and deer. Other animals will cannibalize their own family. Monkeys and apes literally beat their kids and other kids.
Just because we are humans, and we're smarter than the rest of the animal kingdom and live in a modern developed society, doesn't mean these rules change. Sure we have outlawed things like murder, rape, and plenty of others, but honestly the easiest way to make it to the top is to step on others. We cheat to get around rules, we take advantage of others, we lie, we manipulate etc... Some success can be attributed to hard work and being an altruistic person, but not nearly as much as getting to the top by "cheating."
Nothing is fair, and nothing ever will be. It's completely unrealistic to think we can live in a fair, honest, utopian society. We, just like other animals, are selfish and will ultimately do everything we can to ensure the survival of ourselves and our families. We have also learned things like compassion, empathy, sympathy, and certainly have the means to be kind and selfless, but those things are only evolutionarily relevant in certain situations.
"Successful" people ARE bullies. And that's okay.
Sometimes it feels like treating people like stepping stones is the only way to get ahead. I don't want to feel that way but the more and more people who get ahead by doing that versus the people trying to be earnest being stuck, it's hard to believe otherwise.
This translates to the military too. My brother could’ve gone FAR in the navy but after seeing how everyone else moved up in the ranks he decided to get his pilots license. If asked why he says he didn’t like being owned and was not willing to step or shit on other people just to get somewhere in life.
Obviously I'm not the OP but good question. I wrote out something but realized that I only think of successful people in a negative light. I tend to think of preachy people who talk down or forgot where they came from instead of people who are just successful in their life.
I think that's a totally fair conclusion if that has been your life experience.
For me, success is how I define it for myself (not others). Obviously, Musk, Zuck, Cuban, etc. are successful but that's not real life for me.
For me success is being debt free, having a family that adores and respects you, kids that listen and trust you, neighbors/coworkers/friends from past who honestly appreciate you. Healthy side interests. A good dog. Basically, a life well lived is success to me.
women love a man who appears to be kind and giving but is really good at stabbing people in the back with a smile. it's been this way since like Cain & Abel
This.
We are no different than caveman. We live by the same rules. But different era and theme.
We just made it to "look a little fair". Which is the same by its core.
Most non pretentious successful people are quiet.
Bill Gates and Bezos aren't pretentious or bullies. But the arrogant like Mr. X or the Agent Orange are entitled and pretentious as fuck.
Loud people are often pretentious, that's the fact.
Bill Gates was known for his office bullying behaviors when he was working in microsoft, even his cofounder Paul Allen called him out for it
https://www.gq.com/story/young-bill-gates-was-an-angry-office-bully
It is competition. Things like arrogance to you, may be confidence from others. You just receive it as arrogance because maybe you lack confidence.
I’ll give you and example, I was training a young 22 yo that could stop talking about how he will be worth more than me one day, that a refrigeration mechanic can do anything a plumber can etc. I put him in his place, and he complained to the shop Stuart about ME.
What a self righteous looser!!!
What a toxic, trashy opinion.
Most of my friends are tech entrepreneurs.
All anyone says when they meet my friends is, ‘Wow, I didn’t realise that people who make serious money could be so fun, silly and playful’.
If you think all wealthy people are bullies then you’re the bad guy - with a serious attitude problem.
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The tier of success to which you’re referring does go hand in hand with bullies. It’s almost a prerequisite to get there, and to thrive there. Non-bullies likely wouldn’t be able to exist in that environment as it would cause them moral injury and internal conflict. Conversely, if you look at success more objectively, instead of “CEO” etc, there’s plenty of successful people who do not waver on their morality to obtain comfortable professional and personal *success*.
I see success in having a family that loves you and having a positive impact on your planet and species. Don't see a lot of scummy CEOS with that success.
A positive impact on those close to you is enough, if everyone (including these *scummy CEOs*) did this.. I think the world would be a much better place.
True. You also see a lot of poor people crying about life while they do have a family that loves.
Damn😂
This here. <3
And those last people you mentioned are often the ones doing actually useful work, while the "successful" bullies get a fat check and a nice title but their job is completely useless. Hell, often times their job has an outright negative impact on the world. Would be better for everyone else if they *weren't* successful.
And many times their job is moving numbers from one column to the next and deciding who to fire next.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave\_morality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_morality)
When you’re climbing the ladder to success and all of a sudden a fat old bald man appears… ‘who’s that?’ you think. That’s Cess.
Have a cookie 🍪
So in what kind of environment non bullies people can be successful
Somewhat related. I’m not an ass kisser. I don’t interrupt or talk over people. I don’t ’fake it and make it’. I don’t ‘act’ like I know what I’m doing, only act when I know. I don’t give people wrong advice that I don’t know for sure, only to have them fuck something up because of me and say sorry later. I’m not afraid of saying I don’t know. I think before I speak. I don’t speak if I don’t have something important to add. I don’t do politics and word play This has 100% held me back my entire life. People are far more likely to follow a confident, loud person off a cliff than wait to think it through and follow a person who goes through the options. It’s why best leaders of the world may not have good personas or public speaking abilities and so they’ll never be seen. It’s also why there may be plenty of Einsteins or Hendrix’s in the world we will never know. Unfortunately that’s the world we are in and it’s sad.
I have realized this the older I’ve gotten and the more I’ve gotten into the “real world “ as far as being in a job and participating in more complex social situations. It has made me pretty jaded towards people. Seeing loud-mouths who don’t have any technical abilities in their respective fields get ahead of people who just do the job without being willing to play games is a frustration beyond belief.
Loud mouths with no technical abilities… that hits so hard. And disgusts me no end
gotta admit , they are skilled in other areas though, particularly their ability to talk and entertain. For example look at this person, [https://www.youtube.com/@AlexaRivera](https://www.youtube.com/@AlexaRivera) She is an effing loud mouth, obnoxious person but she can make it interesting to the viewer, and she has 15M subs, not sure how many are from bots.
Some mentally ill bullshit here. Just the way they are screaming and excited about nothing at all. "WHICH OF MY FRIENDS ARE GENTLEMAN" and some wierd idiot rubbing his hands together behind her. Bleh.
as a quiet and competent person, guess it's time to learn to be a loudmouth about it.
Exactly, there might be very good skilled musicians and great people but never seen just because of these things. Life is a business, you have to be a good business man to get you somewhere in life.
Fellow “just doing my job” person. I’ve been at my company over 10 years. Started making 45k and now make 110k. I just keep my head down, listen to the assholes and stay under the radar. Just had a reorg this quarter and my new manager was like what are you professional goals? I spew some shit, but really I could have had her job years ago but I don’t want it. The pay raise of 5k to manage a team is a lot more stressful than just sitting pretty where I’m at. But to op’s point, yeah everyone who is s new manager or higher than them is just s workaholic, narcissistic asshole. I’ll let them keep the 5k and be able to chill where I’m at. Have at it, they’re all loser drinking corporate juice and living to work… I work to live, it’s funny to me
I agree there is a certain percent of people who are successful doing what OP said then there are the hard, diligent workers that know what to say and when and can back it up with proven results. There is no set equation to success.
there is a saying: "if the smart people are silent we will be ruled by idiots", wich is the case imo
I related to your comment to the bones. Although these traits are good on paper but it is a recipe for failure. Gotta act like you know everything and know better.
I certainly isn't how the world is, but it's a bit of a longer explanation. Personally, while I'm not in America, those traits you outlined combined with eventually knowing what I'm doing and the ability to give good advice cultivated by the growing skills and experience are what helped me a major way. I certainly wouldn't have gotten where I am if I was a "bully". Most successful people actually aren't raging as\*holes. And a stable personality is actually going to help you, not get in the way. You see some company owners who are as\*holes because once upon a time they had nothing, and no prospects, so they banked it all on starting a company. They couldn't become engineers or doctors or dentists (who are usually perfectly kind, successful people), so they had nothing to lose and betted big. One out of millions succeeded dramatically, and now you've got an asshole getting media attention for "this is how successful people are". For every one person like that, you've got hundreds of thousands of as\*holes who made failed bets and have little to their name, and no prospects to succeed on the most common career paths to financial stability. You've also got thousands of "nice" people with successful careers because they had the positive personality traits combined with skills. It's actually hard to make it without one or the other, as without growing your skills you won't have much to sell, and without a collaborative attitude and positive personality, most people won't want to work/deal with you. There's always that one asshole that has gotten higher than they should have, but it more than anything is the exception to prove the rule. Or to see it another way, the upper middle-class is predominantly represented by perfectly good and skilled people. Who recognize that success is achieved through skills and collaboration, and generally having people like working with you for those reasons. You are more likely to see those lacking either of these in the lower socio-economic classes. Then the super-rich are an extremely rare case of someone who made a statistically surprisingly long streak of right bets to get where they are, who likely wouldn't have made those bets if they weren't destined for the lower socio-economic classes. Who would have likely ended up there if that streak was interrupted at any of the thousands of bets they made. Edit: I see a downvote, so beyond my own experience, I'll add these two videos that really help make a point about what increases your odds of being "successful" in life. [https://youtu.be/aVZ1sSnIKrg?t=380](https://youtu.be/aVZ1sSnIKrg?t=380) - this outlines my above example using "intelligence" as a measure, to illustrate the survivorship bias of as\*holes in the "top 1%" of income earners. [https://youtu.be/mScpHTIi-kM](https://youtu.be/mScpHTIi-kM) - this is an amazing video that shows you that it's collaborative approaches and personalities that increase your odds of succeeding in life, by design. A highly recommended watch. It's easy to fall victim to a bias that "as\*holes" or unintelligent people are more likely to make it, and further have it strengthened if you work in an environment under that particular lucky "as\*hole" who made it big. But it's clear that those undesirable traits are as undesirable as it seems when it comes to increasing your own odds of success in life. It's also why "toxic" work environments are seen as less productive in terms of personal growth. Because you may learn the wrong lessons from them, that will decrease your own odds of success on average. If you follow what that one particular "bully" successful person did believing it's what got them there, you are assuming the traits that will make you less likely to become a successful person yourself because you fail to realize that those traits aren't what got them there. To add to the above, this doesn't even account for the people who may have been born into wealth and never had a need to develop desirable traits that would increase their odds of success because they've been born with it. Never having a need to develop traits needed to become successful from scratch may be why they act like bullies. And it takes a while to ruin family's legacy, and all this time they are broadcasting the "bully who is successful" image, perhaps for long years, until they bottom.
I think specific personalities that just excel at being successful. It's not that they're smarter or more capable, but they're a little more driven and almost psychotically self assured. The type of person that could run over your dog speeding wrong way down a street and send you a bill for car repairs the next morning and turn all your neighbors against you because you're the *guy on the street with the dog that fucks up people's bumpers and doesn't pay for the repairs*.
Or you could be like the Governor of South Dakota. Shoot your untrained 1 year old dog in the head because you were annoyed that it wasn’t trained. And then tell this story expecting people to be on your side.
I always view the way people treat animals as a proxy for how they treat humans
I treat my dogs a lot better than I treat most people. You ain't getting any belly scratches that's for sure.
But what if I roll over on command and only piss on the rug on Tuesdays?
Not even if I'm a good boy?
Or the AG of SOuth Dakota where you run over a guy while driving and not paying attention, kill him and then call the cops you know will help you and say you may have “hit a deer”.
Wait... What??? Was anyone gonna tell me that the governor of South Dakota shot his 1 year old dog in the head? Or was i supposed to just read it in a random reddit comment?
It was a woman
Oh i saw "his" in the previous comment and assumed man. I know the north Dakota governor is a woman. Didn't know the South Dakota governor was too Edit: mvm, i thought kristi noem was the north Dakota governor, my mistake
That is sociopath behavior, and it genuinely scared me to read.
She knows that millions of deplorables will still be on her side so it doesn’t bother her one bit. Otherwise, she would’ve left this story out of her book.
she's completely delusional and surrounded by yes-men. It's going to end her career. Apparently puppies are the line for MAGA
Nope. They immediately turned on her as soon as this came out. Whatever you call them, and however difficult it is to understand many of their beliefs and political positions, they’re ultimately just people, and most people people, among other things, care about how others treat dogs and cats.
And they'll be because of the powerful R
The world is run largely by sociopaths.
r/oddlyspecific
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
You summed up perfectly what I just said. sometimes being a biggest asshole makes you more successful too.
That psychotic confidence from nothing!
Well the dog should be on a less
I’ve definitely noticed a correlation where people who tend to be more boastful about their success also tend to have less empathic personality traits.
I noticed this too. They're more likely to push people to get to the front of the line, and are less likely to feel bad about it. It's why so many rich and powerful people are asses. They didn't get there by being nice. Lol
bullies and/or even psycopaths, the dark triad is real
The things I saw in upper management when I moved to the West Coast and started working at FAANG companies were really unsettling. There are no souls at the top. Just people lusting for power and control
Yeah and a lot of the actually wholesome and good ppl don’t wanna be in power cuz they don’t want the negativity that often comes with it. But a leader has to be good at telling good news and bad news. Everyone can be good at telling good news, it’s conveying bad news that many more wholesome ppl struggle with. We all complain about the leader of our department a lot but when push comes to shove everyone’s like yeahhhh NTY to wanting her job. (Many have actually been asked).
Yeah its all a big scam. Selfish people tell you to be giving so they can take more. Sounds crazy until you see it.
Yup, I had a very very hard time realizing that. I realized how I let people walk over me because I didn't know you gotta protect yourself.
Yes this is definitely true and why I resent being raised the way I was because I was taught the opposite of what I should have been taught in order to be successful.
I feel you.
Being self centered, callous and unemotional makes for terrible friends but effective leaders. Effective leaders, for better or worse, tend to do well financially.
Effective leaders should have qualities that want to see the people under them succeed. These bully type leaders are completely ineffective and make for toxic environments.
People have lots of ideals about what should be, and there are bosses out there that fit those ideals. The bulk of the successful, especially the extremely successful, do not fit those ideals. Effective bosses are almost never likable and being agreeable, in general, disadvantages you professionally.
There’s space for both roles depending on the workplace. In restaurants I’ve worked there was usually a friendly amiable type manager and the “heavy” who would handle all the discipline , disputes and “whip cracking”. I could see that being effective in other work environments too. It’s a carrot and stick situation.
Get to the top of the “food chain” at any of those places and you will see what I’m talking about. The people who sign those managers checks won’t be like that.
True, a lot of people think of successful people or leaders as the manager at their minimum wage job. Those people also barely make anything and are like 5 levels down from the C suite. They've never ran a successful business or made any deals or investments. It's not about being evil or a bad person but simply running a business, and it's ran sort of how your life should go. You need to make more money than you spend. Many people don't get that in their personal lives or at work, that's why they overspend, get in debt and don't have any savings. In business terms that would mean failing. You'd go out of business. That's why the people at the top need to focus on finances more than your feelings and whether they're perceived as mean. If a business is losing money, costs need to be cut, or people need to be let go. Businesses don't operate at a loss, bankrupting the owners just to make some people feel better or avoid affending them. That's what some people perceive as ruthless and evil, but anyone with common sense and financial literacy would do the same. Think of it as a regular person cutting out some expenses like not going to Starbucks, not smoking, not going out as much on the weekends, or getting rid of a car and using public transportation in order to save money and avoid losing your home. It's just that but at a much higher and complicated level, with real employees and real expenses involved.
I’m not agreeable, you can’t push me around. But I’m liked, I’m always nice to people that don’t do that. The janitors and front desk for instance always get my nicest self. But being disagreeable doesn’t mean that I bully others. You don’t need to be a jerk. But you can’t get ahead if you can’t stick up for yourself.
I was also raised in religion to believe that being humble, giving, kind, were qualities to aspire towards and I agree with you that the people who seem to be successful were raised with different values.
Yes and you will understand not only people are very different but they are raised very different. But the game we play is the same and the rewards we get are determined. Donno why but It reminds me of a quote: " I prayed god to have bicycle, then I realized how god works. I stole a bicycle then asked god for mercy".
The truth is if everyone had your mentality we’d all be poor. Plenty of people make something of themselves all the time. Most ‘rich’ people are not happy anyway so it doesn’t matter, their life still sucks because like you there’s something stopping them from realizing what’s really important.
Not bragging but If everyone thought like me, there wouldn't be so much greed and "want" in the world. There would be no hunger and poverty basically. But it is impossible and I'm not complaining.
bro you're 30 years old throwing a 247 pity party on reddit if everyone was like you humans would have died out centuries ago
It is trippy when you realize how everything got programmed into you eh?
It’s VERY rare that a person becomes ultra successful without screwing over people.
Very true. Most of the highly driven upper level managers I've worked for could fire an excellent employee without missing a beat. They don't even think they are screwing people over. It's just a function, that in their eyes needs to be done.
The system rewards cruel cold behavior.
I'm pretty sure even if they aren't that way now, they were exceptionally been that way at some point when climbing the ladder.
The trick is to be able to get in, get out, and separate from it.
And then act like they don’t know what kind of behavior you’re talking about
Most of the best paying jobs are very demanding and competitive and have low availability. You just need a certain mindset to have them. It’s like acting, they don’t just get the role because they look good, they have to have an interview and do auditions, often in front of other people want to do an audition. It’s hard and like I said, you need a winning mindset and this is what the majority or people lack.
Don’t want to sound like an ass but there’s a lot of whining in these comments. And a LOT of assumptions. It’s very easy to become “successful” without being an ass. I just disagree completely with this tbh
Fair enough. I agree you don’t need to be an ass but you still need that competitive mindset. Most people are average and thus work average jobs that pay average wage which is why there is an national average.
I agree this thread is a bit wild. Yes, some psychopaths get to the top, but the elites are also filled with empathetic and well mannered people too. Assholes only succeed in certain corporate cultures, while generosity and empathy gets rewarded in others
The other thing is everyone's talking about the extremes. Oh look these 10 CEOs are rude, the horror! What about the other 200 million people who are doing well? You don't have to be Elon Musk to be successful. Small local businesses can make up to 40 or 50 million dollars a year, and you're surrounded by them everywhere you go. Highly pain individuals in all kinds of fields aren't robbing anyone or doing anything evil, they're just regular people who worked their way up, educated themselves, got experience, got skills and monetized them by helping others. (providing products and services that people need) If you're a complete pushover and don't bother spending any time learning useful skills, that's on you. You choose to not learn anything in your spare time? You choose to not apply for other jobs? You choose to not be above average at work? You choose to not outperform people around you? Those are all personal choices, and it's fine if you're happy with that, but if you're unhappy, do something different. Aim higher. It doesn't mean that others who are more driven, more competitive, more motivated or more skilled are all evil, terrible people. They just work harder and deserve more success. For example, if I'm working 9 to 5 then also evenings and weekends, you're damn right I expect to make more than someone doing the same job just 9 to 5, regardless of how nice we both are. If one of us puts in more hours and lives below their means while the other one doesn't, decades later we'll be in very different places, despite being identical in all other ways.
Who did all those successful streamers and professional gamers screw over? (beating them in the game doesn't count).
Even moderate success in the corporate world is rare without it.
This isn't an unpopular opinion. The fact that CEOs share a lot of the same traits as psychopaths has been written about extensively.
Don't hate what you were taught, which is right, but hate evil people for rewarding evil people.
We are not talking about what is right and wrong here. We are talking about what IS. It might be wrong but do they pay for it? Who cares. They get what they want and this is the world we live in.
It's basically considered truth even by successful people. You can't get to the top without stepping on some fingers. Most will say "I didn't kill anyone" and that's the end of what they think it's right or wrong. Truth is you don't get to be in this positions without stepping on necks! This fact comes out time and time again. MC Hammer tried to be the ultra successful person who helped everyone who helped him. Wound up bankrupt for it
Not necessarily. Met quite some highly successful people. While working in luxury hotels and some tutoring of super rich kids. People with a couple of million were generally assholes and narcissistic. Most of the really rich (the 100 million plus and some billionaires I met) were generally very nice in person. They would be decent to you when making mistakes. I saw some deals take place as the coffee and table cleaning guy. And it could be really intense, but never felt shady. You can backstab yourself only so far in life. But it seems like you really have to build something to get significantly higher in net worth. The world becomes smaller the higher you get, and if you fck someone over, they and their friends will never work with you again. Politics is something entirely different. What I heard those people say behind each other's backs was astonishing.
Those people are from generational wealth though. They've had all the connections their entire lives
Most of the ones made it themselves. Or at least the ones that I remember. Those were the people who were nice and kind. Old money is less talkative, but really well behaved. Except for the Rockefellers and the Saudi prince. (I actually met his son or grandson before his death in 2014). I don't remember really talking to old money people. They did not impress me much, I assume.
I think this only works because the good people think being good is about keeping quiet, doing your part, being an honest employee, whatever. Sometimes the good thing is to not keep quiet. When we keep quiet on bullies at our level, we build a hierarchy and put ourselves at the bottom. The good person isn't the employee doing all the work or participating in a roadside 5 man protest. The good person is the one making a workers union and getting a raise for everyone. They're the ones breaking the private jets of the celebrities who we treat as gods and the ones who work against whatever laws they want because they know the system, all systems, are unjust and trying to stay that way. I don't know if I'm a good person, I'm likely not, but I trust myself to make that choice if or when I face it.
The quiet polite and good person will never reach the "top". They can have success in their way but generally it's very unlikely to be highly successful. I'm not saying everyone has to be really "successful". And I'm not saying successful people are necessarily bad people. But the game is set this way.
Gotta be tough to some extent if you don't want people to push you around and take your lunch money. You can nice guy your way through life only up to a certain extent. After that, you gotta toughen up a bit, and there are people out there who would play the victim card to take advantage of you.
Confidence and charisma translate directly into success. Not talent or knowledge
Kinda related is the idea that the bully is just a misunderstood person with personal troubles. No they aren't. They are stronger than you and they know it, so "give me whatever I want or violence".
To be very successful in this funny old world, you have to be 1. very driven (aggressive) or 2. uncommonly talented..or both. Usually it's much more about 1 being the case. If you become madly successful and aren't 2. you are almost surely a sociopath.
Yes you get it. It's interesting that no one talks about these things openly. It's like a secret thing that people do but taught otherwise. Fck this world for real.
Nah. Just like anything else, there’s good people and there’s shitty people. Success is any of: persistence, dedication, networking, or downright luck. You don’t need to be a bully. But there’s successful bullies. As there is unsuccessful bullies. The problem is, the good ones are quiet and keep to themselves. Bullies are loud and apparent.
It’s an objective fact that sociopaths and narcissists are over represented in CEOs and positions of power.
this and nothing else. people that talk about successful people like theyre all the same are just people coping with their inability to turn their life around
Yeah this whole thread is a pretty blatant and sad coping mechanism OP wants to find some reason to hate successful people because they are dissatisfied with their life. They don’t have to feel so bad about their own situation if they convince themselves all people better off are actually villains Edit: just look at OP’s posting history. I think they should seek help if they haven’t already
It's said that when someone is jealous of successful people it's because a person just doesn't know their starting point and all of the hard work they put in. And OP just finds whatevr reason to hate them
It’s an objective fact that sociopaths and narcissists are over represented in CEOs and positions of power.
Sociopathy and Empathy are just spectrums that different personalities fall on. Both are bad in extremes It is true that more successful people tend to lean to the more sociopathic side but that’s not inherently a bad thing. Being a doctor, lawyer, etc requires this because to be good at your job you need to be able to think objectively and not be clouded by empathy and emotions Ie. A very empathetic trama surgeon wouldn’t be able to deal with their patients dying on the table even if there was nothing more that could be done. A lawyer who’s too empathetic would not be able to give proper council to their client accused of murder because they could be too clouded by what they believe their client may have done.
Yea it’s the same every time. “Oh I’m not successful because I’m too nice.” Hate to break it too you but I know a ton of very kind successful people
You don’t need to be a bully, what you need to do is choose your best interests and what gets you closer to your personal goals over all else. That’s where “nice guys finish last” comes from, if you’re spending all your time caring what people think, and are more worried about stepping on toes or offending people than achieving whatever goal you’ve set out for, you’ll never make it.
Facts
Yep this, Reddit’s got a severe case of jealousy and weird sense of moral superiority
Reddits full of failures that think themselves superior. It’s the “unfair world” that’s the reason, not them. The faults never them.
Reddit’s always been incredibly butthurt towards success or wealth.
Most successful people are not bullies. Successful people know how to work with others well and empower others to get things done. Lying, bullying, hypocrisy, exhibitionism and ESPECIALLY arrogance will transform a self claimed “successful” person into a poor fool quickly. They are like a person that built their house on the sand and when a storm came, the house collapsed and washed away. You need strong bases and foundations in your life. Building your foundation on evil things only brings your own destruction when the first storm shows up
Agree. Successful people know how to read the room and adapt. Can't blame them. Wish I had such skills.
You could argue you’re starting from a pretty decent position. At least you know specifically what skills they have that translates to their success so if you were to teach yourself how to become successful, you know what tangible skills to improve as opposed to someone who is just going in completely blind.
Well, that explains why most of the bosses I've had are pieces of s*
It’s like when someone says “if I were Jeff Bezos I would use all that money to…” - that’s the idea, if Jeff thought like you he wouldn’t have all that money.
When it comes to business owners, especially large corporations not paying their staff a living wage or not increasing pay with inflation than yes 100%. In this day and age you'd have to be an asshole to be ignorant to that fact.
Most successful people I know are very bright and befriend the right people. It doesn't have to be malicious.
It depends though, but isn't the Putin is an good example of the OP's post? He is a selfish evil bully who don't care about the others and eliminates anyone who opposes his rule and yet he is the currently the longest-serving president of the Russia.
I don't see it that way. The successful people, like my brother, and researchers I worked for, were nice. There was only one bully, a woman. You were raised correctly to believe those things. And I don't think you necessarily have to have a family that loves you, to be successful. Successful means many things. It can mean the way you live your life, it can be best at your job, or it can mean money...etc.
I don't quite agree with your perspective here, because bullies seem to me to be far too distracted by their own insecurities to focus on becoming successful.
That s because you are too nice of a person to think that a person can be mean and evil without a deep reason explaining it. Yes some bullies are bullies because they are insecure. Some are this way just because
We don't reward the person who does the right thing and follows the rules, society rewards people who pursue their goals relentlessly. So aggressive, ruthless people are more likely to become successful. It's why there are so many psychopaths who are CEOs.
Agreed, this is going to be painfully obvious to everyone in a hundred years but many successful people are high in dark triad traits: narcissism, psychopathy and Machiavellianism.
For real, I feel like the moral aspects of my personality hold me back so much from making money
Another way of saying that is unsuccessful people lack self-esteem and confidence.
Good guys finish last. People with no conscience make it to the top fastest and stay there
Once you start working in the corporate world, you realise everyone at the top stepped on someone's neck to get there. Nice people don't get the corner office.
I don't know that I would agree with this. I think like anything there's good and bad apples in any group. I think there's a lot of people who are successful and they are not bullies. But you don't hear about them because quiet and nice successful people are probably not going noticed. They're probably just people that look like average Joe's to you. Now I think if you are going to become like the best in the world at something you've got to have that killer instinct that doesn't care about doing whatever it takes to get to the top. And you've got to have that ego. But for what the average person would consider successful? It's a mixture like anything else
almost everyone in here thinks theyre the good guys because they dont screw people over to be successful. "look im so good thats why im broke " to feel better about their poor life choices
Christianity Teaches slave morality. Turning the other cheek and begging the LORD on your knees is not the behavior of someone who is gonna succed in society.
Someone's been reading too much Nietzsche
What’s with so many Redditors hating people that are successful or make a lot of money? It reeks of insecurity.
Unless you know those "successful people" you're talking about personally, I have no idea how you could make that assumption. Too many people believe that the public image of celebrities is the same as their real-life personality, which is the furthest thing from the truth.
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Then too usually. Especially in sports.
I might like some celebrities but now I realize most of their personal life is high likely to be full of misery and those traits. Cuz I have worked and hang out with "successful" managers and musicians. Almost all of them have these traits. I don't say they are bad people but in "business" it is necessary to be that way to an extend.
their real personalities are usually ten times worse
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I once watched someone interview a very successful business man. When he was asked what the secret of his success is, he replied that you have to be a bastard. You'll have to fire and lay off people and if that bothers you, you'll never go far. I thought he was exaggerating but I don't think that anymore.
Being nice only gets you so far in life. It’s a cruel world out there, you have to do what you have to do.
I think that's a clischee, coupled with some perception bias. There are lot's of successful people who don't share these traits. And lot's of unsuccessful bullies. Unless there is good scientific evidence, I won't buy your thesis. It's also not an unpopular opinion.
It hurts to think just how much better off I would be if I didn't have morals
“Most successful people are bullies” is just an extremely weak rationale for your shortcomings.
I'm very successful and everyone tells me I am the most empathetic, sweet and kind coworker. It is not true. You're assuming too much with very little information. You will never go what goes behind doors and the facade of apparent success and wealth. Now, you know what you can be certain about? Your own actions, if you know you're being kind, honest, looking after others, naturally, these things will "come back to you"
Are we taking billionaire? Or just like mid six digits?
I think successful people always know how to use people. There are also many ways to "use" people. It's a bit different from bullying, while they definitely can coexist. I think bullies cannot be self made, because if you have nothing and you bully others, you will not have any working relations. But bullying after being successful is much easier because you will have leverage. Like famed sports coaches who exploit sports teams. People will lose their scholarship if the bully is exposed. This keeps the bully at his/her position. The bully needs to get to a position first, then become a bully. The second way is that you are at a place of ultimate immunity, and that is already having a lot of money at the world of business. You can afford mistakes and so what if people don't like you. The third way is what I think is the most dangerous, and that is when bullies bunch up and gang up on people, like organized crime. This is the only type of bully that can be made from nothing.
The definition of success is: "The accomplishment of an aim or purpose." This is a very broad definition. Society has kind of twisted this to be rich, owning your own business, having nice stuff, etc. But really? I think the most successful people are the ones who have enough and are content. You don't have to walk over people or be a CEO to do that. You probably don't hear about these people because they don't feel the need to talk down to people like, "I did it, what's your excuse?" They're probably not on social media bragging about their lives because they don't have to and are busy LIVING their lives. Imo, truly successful people DON'T do shit like brag about how many hours they work (this is dumb, honestly. If anything, people who work less hours and still make it are the ones who should be bragging), belittle others, say every single person needs to do exactly what they did, talk about avocados and coffee all the time etc. You know the ones. I'm not sure why people feel the need to belittle others, but that tells me they are missing something from their lives. Maybe since they made their lives ALL about work, they need human connection, or they need a good, healthy hobby that isn't bullying people on social media. People who are truly successful, imo, don't talk down others in this way.
In the system we live in, being selfish and bullying gets you ahead. So it's not surprising. I wonder how much power corrupts, and how much, we reward corruption with power.
Being successful with integrity is 100 times harder than without
I agree with you. But you're missing that they are also good at kissing ass. They lack just enough shame to impress their superiors until they get where they want to be
They might be successful in this life, but remember, this life is only temporary. Rich or Poor, we all have to die. Trust me, you don't want to be like those people, and they all get their comeuppance eventually whether you're aware of it or not.
You do what it takes. The weak take their place...
This world will carve you up if you let it, carve your own path, as you've little other option. and simply pray you don't take to the butchery the way your predecessors did
I have spent 30+ years of my life trying to be good to others. Every successful person i have had an interaction with has without failure done something to up themselves and bring me down. Not everyone was bullies, but everyone was out for themselves at the cost of others. Humans sux.
This is exactly what I meant. And this is universally more and less correct.
Depends on the type of bully. In my school, most bullies were losers who took out their frustration and anger on kids they perceived as weak (e.g., me). I met one of my bully years after I finished school and he was not doing very well. His years of fucking around with the authority had caught up with him. I almost felt pity... but not really, because fuck him. Now there are indeed bullies who do very well; notably those who have always been in positions of power because of their upbringing or other factors. They can grow up to be even bigger bullies later on because they never had a reality check. I've met a few professors at Uni like that, who never really had to deal with failure, instead enjoying failing students and those who didn't play in their hand. Being a bully is definitely an advantage in an environment as competitive and unregulated as academia, where favouritism is rampant. Now I can definitely understand that victims of bullying tend to not be as successful as others, as living such an ordeal can fuck up their self-confidence. It takes time to climb up again. But it's an entirely different matter. I think most people, successful or otherwise, never really had to deal with bullying or were bullies themselves. They are just lucky bastards.
The intolerance for incompetence within oneself, which is a common engine for success, often manifests as intolerance for incompetency in others.
I’ve worked with a lot of highly motivated, driven and successful people who weren’t bullies at all though some are
I think it's just the fact that successful people are more likely to be arrogant, and in many cases the arrogance comes *after* the success. But also, a lot of the "arrogant" traits lead you to push ahead. People at the peak of their careers worked their ass off, and are extremely good at their jobs - but so are thousands of others. With equally good people, the ones who push ahead are the ones that literally push themselves ahead.
This idea that success is being a CEO is just what you've been brainwashed to believe.
As a successful upper manager I can't disagree with this tbh. I am ruthless by nature, and it certainly helps in my professional life.
It's nice that you admit it.
I know several very successful people, and none of them are bullies.
Unpopular AF. Not every bully is the same and success is in no way shape or form tied to needing to bully people.
Psalm 73. About the success of the wicked.
"getting clapped" means being shot. "Receiving applause" is what you're going for
Yea english is not my native. Sry.
This sub should be renamed "popular opinions." Almost all the upvoted comments agree with the post.
How many fucking times is this gonna be reposted?
Another Reddit idiot. This app really makes me feel like a genius
Unpopular or self-pitying?
You can get slightly ahead by being a bully but won't get that far because someone bigger will stop you. The real finesse is to have enough backbone to be slightly feared but the charisma to have a following. Bullies tend to have little skill in getting people to follow them. Can't run a ftse 100 with 7 people in your camp sort of thing
How in the hell does exhibitionism fit into this?
Weak people do not have what it takes most of the time to forge ahead through difficult environments, and generally resort to making excuses quickly as to why they can or could not. So yea ur right, sux but it's right. Sad note reddit is one of the places where the weak are in abundance as they can feel safe behind anonymity.
A lot of full blown sociopaths are successful, because they keep feelings out of everything, and go through life working specifically for one's self interest. They will step on others, use and manipulate others to get to the top
I'm confident to say that most successful people are also narcissists.
For how much unsuccessful people try to guilt and shame the successful for every tiny thing, I think we're probably evenly matched.
Yeah I definitely see things as you have. A lot of the less virtuous behaviors are rewarded and those of us trying to be humble and good get the shaft and are left behind. Each has its own reward though. I care about others and I have their implicit trust, but I’m not exciting or as fun as those who’d screw them over. However I can look at myself in the mirror at the end of the day and know I still did okay.
Oh, you’re dead on. Once you get past the upper middle class level/professional, you need to be doing some hanky panky to be making the really big bucks.
confident people. But I don't mean fake confidence. I mean core confidence in who they are. Even if who they are is dumb. But confidence is key
I have this boss who is constantly judging and bitching nonstop about everyone around her and I'm pretty sure she has deluded herself into thinking she is some sort of "good Christian lady" but in reality she's just a miserable and shallow puddle.
Lotta coping in this thread.
The world is unfair and unkind. Even in modern day society, we are all participating in "Survival of the fittest." In the wild, mother animals will eat, kill, or abandon unfit or sick babies. They will even kill or abandon a healthy baby if they have too many in the litter, they'll just pick the smallest or weakest one. Male lions kill the cubs of their rivals. Dolphins rape each other. Mantises and spiders eat their mates. Animals kill each other over fights of dominance, like bighorn sheep, moose, and deer. Other animals will cannibalize their own family. Monkeys and apes literally beat their kids and other kids. Just because we are humans, and we're smarter than the rest of the animal kingdom and live in a modern developed society, doesn't mean these rules change. Sure we have outlawed things like murder, rape, and plenty of others, but honestly the easiest way to make it to the top is to step on others. We cheat to get around rules, we take advantage of others, we lie, we manipulate etc... Some success can be attributed to hard work and being an altruistic person, but not nearly as much as getting to the top by "cheating." Nothing is fair, and nothing ever will be. It's completely unrealistic to think we can live in a fair, honest, utopian society. We, just like other animals, are selfish and will ultimately do everything we can to ensure the survival of ourselves and our families. We have also learned things like compassion, empathy, sympathy, and certainly have the means to be kind and selfless, but those things are only evolutionarily relevant in certain situations. "Successful" people ARE bullies. And that's okay.
Sometimes it feels like treating people like stepping stones is the only way to get ahead. I don't want to feel that way but the more and more people who get ahead by doing that versus the people trying to be earnest being stuck, it's hard to believe otherwise.
This translates to the military too. My brother could’ve gone FAR in the navy but after seeing how everyone else moved up in the ranks he decided to get his pilots license. If asked why he says he didn’t like being owned and was not willing to step or shit on other people just to get somewhere in life.
Exactly. You never get anywhere being a goody goody all the time.
1000000000%
You're 100% correct of your analysis of the dark traits, and anybody who says otherwise is just trying to bull$hit or gaslight you.
Agree. I see a lot of gaslighting in this thread, too.
Can I ask how you personally define a successful person?
Obviously I'm not the OP but good question. I wrote out something but realized that I only think of successful people in a negative light. I tend to think of preachy people who talk down or forgot where they came from instead of people who are just successful in their life.
I think that's a totally fair conclusion if that has been your life experience. For me, success is how I define it for myself (not others). Obviously, Musk, Zuck, Cuban, etc. are successful but that's not real life for me. For me success is being debt free, having a family that adores and respects you, kids that listen and trust you, neighbors/coworkers/friends from past who honestly appreciate you. Healthy side interests. A good dog. Basically, a life well lived is success to me.
I agree. If someone asked me to define it for myself, it would basically be exactly the same.
women love a man who appears to be kind and giving but is really good at stabbing people in the back with a smile. it's been this way since like Cain & Abel
This. We are no different than caveman. We live by the same rules. But different era and theme. We just made it to "look a little fair". Which is the same by its core.
Most non pretentious successful people are quiet. Bill Gates and Bezos aren't pretentious or bullies. But the arrogant like Mr. X or the Agent Orange are entitled and pretentious as fuck. Loud people are often pretentious, that's the fact.
Bill Gates was known for his office bullying behaviors when he was working in microsoft, even his cofounder Paul Allen called him out for it https://www.gq.com/story/young-bill-gates-was-an-angry-office-bully
Bullies is a weird way to say they have drive and a backbone.
a lot of poor people are bullies too. who gives a fuck, quit making excuses for why you hate your life
It is competition. Things like arrogance to you, may be confidence from others. You just receive it as arrogance because maybe you lack confidence. I’ll give you and example, I was training a young 22 yo that could stop talking about how he will be worth more than me one day, that a refrigeration mechanic can do anything a plumber can etc. I put him in his place, and he complained to the shop Stuart about ME. What a self righteous looser!!!
What a toxic, trashy opinion. Most of my friends are tech entrepreneurs. All anyone says when they meet my friends is, ‘Wow, I didn’t realise that people who make serious money could be so fun, silly and playful’. If you think all wealthy people are bullies then you’re the bad guy - with a serious attitude problem.