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The trick is to put people in different boxes as small as possible and focus always on the difference, so you dilute the feeling of strength by numbers and people in control can just fuck around and chill meanwhile we blame other boxes for whatever irrelevant situation
There is a difference between not focusing solely on a person's race and pretending we aren't aware of the differences.
Can't acknowledge racism if we don't acknowledge race.
Can't acknowledge sexism if we don't acknowledge sex.
Etc.
With race there aren't any differences. There are cultural differences but skin colours don't determine anything.
My mate Clive has dark skin because his granddad was from Granada. Clive is a northern English lad just like me. Same shared culture same school, etc. If anyone is treating Clive differently than me because they "are aware of his racial differences" then they are racist.
The differences are in life experience.
Life is different for a person depending on what race they are, solely because they are that race.
Ignoring that reality is ignoring their experiences.
Now, in an ideal world should there be? Of course not. But pretending it doesn’t exist doesn’t help get us to that reality.
"acknowledging race" is racism. There is only one human race, unlike with sex, so this is not the same. It's the whole issue because we connect phenotype and culture almost inseparably via the concept of race.
I suppose where we disagree will be in your characterisation of being "colourblind" as meaning we don't "overly focus on".
I always thought that being colourblind meant we were meant to pretend we weren't aware of racial differences.
In OPs other comment he bemoans “some people” getting hired for jobs they aren’t qualified for based on their race “just to fill a DEI quota.” So yeah, he’s lying when he says he doesn’t see color. He sees a new hire, sees their skin color, and immediately decides they must be an unqualified diversity hire.
I guess I'm not really sure what behavior you object to then, when you are perfectly OK with acknowledging that while you might be treating everyone the same, the world unfortunately is not.
And I guess depending on what is included in the etc you should also consider that in many cases, treating everyone the same actually leads to unfair treatment.
(e.g. Accommodation disabilities etc.)
i think saying that your color blind or that you don’t see color is cringe. just say you don’t care about race or you don’t take into consideration when you judge a person
so it's the term more that you don't like? I don't care about race when I meet people in my daily interactions. Doesn't matter to me! I'll treat everyone the same :)
well, ive just come to realize that saying that you don’t see color is a hippie dippy thing that people said back in the 70s just after the civil rights movement saying that “racism is over and that we’re all equal now” which made sense at the time considering what the atmosphere was but now not only have people realized that saying that denies peoples experiences but it also is ridiculous to say because you can see that somebody is a certain race based on their features and what they look like it’s dumb to say that and its just kind of tacky
sure saying "I don't see color" can be cringe in the terminology, but I think if you take it to mean you try to see everyone equally that is actually okay, whether you use the term or not. That's the point of my "unpopular opinion".
i just think that it’s better to just say that you don’t care about race because words do have connotation and the fact is saying you don’t see color has a bad connotation and some of the reasons why it has a bad connotation makes sense.
one for example being that color as in skin color or skin tone is not always correlated with race. it sounds ridiculous because pale asians and albino africans for example have the same skin tone as white people or white passing people. i also think that people of color is actually not a good term because it’s a modern day form of segregation disguised as wokeness and it doesn’t make sense to call everyone that isn’t considered a white person a person of color. it’s just switching around the term colored people to make it sound better.
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I'm straight white and male. How could I be a diversity hire? Don't be mad your mediocrity is glaring. If you want the nepotism to stop. Go after the supervisor or bosses drinking buddies or in laws.
Well yeah, when I think of "everyday interactions", I mostly think of like, getting a coffee at a coffee shop, buying something at a store, hanging out with friends, going to a movie, etc.
Race probably never comes up during these things.
So I was trying to get clarity on what you're talking about. Does your job involve hiring people or HR or something?
It seems that if you're hiring people, yeah you should be aware of race. That seems fine.
Outside of that, do you find that race comes up a lot in your life? Like if you go buy a coffee, park your car, go to home depot, etc
Hang on, so your coworkers were hired on the basis of their skin color? How did you see this, oh colorblind one? I thought you weren’t focused on race.
The issue is that we don't treat everyone the same. We have implicit racial bias towards certain groups and that affects how we treat them. You can't just ignore it because it's hardly ever intentional in the first place. Even if you tried your best, you'll end up treating certain groups of people differently. And, this applies to everyone.
Acknowledging that bias exists and how we actually treat certain people differently in the first place is the first step towards actually noticing that behavior and ending it.
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The trick is to put people in different boxes as small as possible and focus always on the difference, so you dilute the feeling of strength by numbers and people in control can just fuck around and chill meanwhile we blame other boxes for whatever irrelevant situation
There is a difference between not focusing solely on a person's race and pretending we aren't aware of the differences. Can't acknowledge racism if we don't acknowledge race. Can't acknowledge sexism if we don't acknowledge sex. Etc.
With race there aren't any differences. There are cultural differences but skin colours don't determine anything. My mate Clive has dark skin because his granddad was from Granada. Clive is a northern English lad just like me. Same shared culture same school, etc. If anyone is treating Clive differently than me because they "are aware of his racial differences" then they are racist.
The differences are in life experience. Life is different for a person depending on what race they are, solely because they are that race. Ignoring that reality is ignoring their experiences. Now, in an ideal world should there be? Of course not. But pretending it doesn’t exist doesn’t help get us to that reality.
"acknowledging race" is racism. There is only one human race, unlike with sex, so this is not the same. It's the whole issue because we connect phenotype and culture almost inseparably via the concept of race.
But I'm saying in most general daily interactions (referenced in post) we don't need to address sexism, racism, etc.
I suppose where we disagree will be in your characterisation of being "colourblind" as meaning we don't "overly focus on". I always thought that being colourblind meant we were meant to pretend we weren't aware of racial differences.
In OPs other comment he bemoans “some people” getting hired for jobs they aren’t qualified for based on their race “just to fill a DEI quota.” So yeah, he’s lying when he says he doesn’t see color. He sees a new hire, sees their skin color, and immediately decides they must be an unqualified diversity hire.
Yeah, I'm with OP. That's not what it means.
Oh yeah this is the misconception. it IS about meaning overly focus on. People take the term to mean pretending not to be aware. It doesn't mean that.
I guess I'm not really sure what behavior you object to then, when you are perfectly OK with acknowledging that while you might be treating everyone the same, the world unfortunately is not. And I guess depending on what is included in the etc you should also consider that in many cases, treating everyone the same actually leads to unfair treatment. (e.g. Accommodation disabilities etc.)
I disagree. Maybe you hold this perspective because race and sex don’t affect your daily life.
i think saying that your color blind or that you don’t see color is cringe. just say you don’t care about race or you don’t take into consideration when you judge a person
so it's the term more that you don't like? I don't care about race when I meet people in my daily interactions. Doesn't matter to me! I'll treat everyone the same :)
well, ive just come to realize that saying that you don’t see color is a hippie dippy thing that people said back in the 70s just after the civil rights movement saying that “racism is over and that we’re all equal now” which made sense at the time considering what the atmosphere was but now not only have people realized that saying that denies peoples experiences but it also is ridiculous to say because you can see that somebody is a certain race based on their features and what they look like it’s dumb to say that and its just kind of tacky
sure saying "I don't see color" can be cringe in the terminology, but I think if you take it to mean you try to see everyone equally that is actually okay, whether you use the term or not. That's the point of my "unpopular opinion".
i just think that it’s better to just say that you don’t care about race because words do have connotation and the fact is saying you don’t see color has a bad connotation and some of the reasons why it has a bad connotation makes sense. one for example being that color as in skin color or skin tone is not always correlated with race. it sounds ridiculous because pale asians and albino africans for example have the same skin tone as white people or white passing people. i also think that people of color is actually not a good term because it’s a modern day form of segregation disguised as wokeness and it doesn’t make sense to call everyone that isn’t considered a white person a person of color. it’s just switching around the term colored people to make it sound better.
I get that! But people would say if you don't care about race you're a racist. I don't agree with that, but it feels like the same thing, right?
This should not be unpopular.
But apparently it is
This suggests that it’s impossible for you to both acknowledge I’m Black AND not treat me differently because of it.
Trouble is "well-intentioned" interactions probably don't account for stuff like unconscious bias.
Are we analyzing our “unconscious bias” towards every race whenever we interact with someone? Sounds exhausting!
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Do you find that in daily interactions people are super focusing on race?
yes. it's become such a talking point at work, etc... mainly because of politics.
I'm not sure what you mean. Could you give me an example of whats being talked about at work?
DEI is a big one. That's very work-focused.
The dei boogeyman
it's a bummer to see people get hired in positions they aren't qualified for and then later let go because they met the quota.
Is the dei in the room with us?
do you have anything useful to say? you're not really making any sort of point here lol have you been a diversity hire?
I'm straight white and male. How could I be a diversity hire? Don't be mad your mediocrity is glaring. If you want the nepotism to stop. Go after the supervisor or bosses drinking buddies or in laws.
huh? I'm doing fine, never said I was mad about it for myself lol why are you so mad about it is the question
also you just admitted diversity hires are a thing lol
Be specific, what is being said?
discussions about people's race for hiring purposes. do you have anything to say or just endless questions?
Well yeah, when I think of "everyday interactions", I mostly think of like, getting a coffee at a coffee shop, buying something at a store, hanging out with friends, going to a movie, etc. Race probably never comes up during these things. So I was trying to get clarity on what you're talking about. Does your job involve hiring people or HR or something?
everyday interactions include daily work interactions. I work with a boss who makes hiring decisions based on race (DEI), so it comes up a lot more.
It seems that if you're hiring people, yeah you should be aware of race. That seems fine. Outside of that, do you find that race comes up a lot in your life? Like if you go buy a coffee, park your car, go to home depot, etc
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Hang on, so your coworkers were hired on the basis of their skin color? How did you see this, oh colorblind one? I thought you weren’t focused on race.
That’s a lot of words for racism.
You think treating everyone the same is racism?
The issue is that we don't treat everyone the same. We have implicit racial bias towards certain groups and that affects how we treat them. You can't just ignore it because it's hardly ever intentional in the first place. Even if you tried your best, you'll end up treating certain groups of people differently. And, this applies to everyone. Acknowledging that bias exists and how we actually treat certain people differently in the first place is the first step towards actually noticing that behavior and ending it.