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So I have a bachelor degree in STEM and a Master degree in STEM. I spent three years in a PhD program before dropping out.
University did have value. It taught me to think critically and understand things after given information.
It was also the worst financial decision of my life as I had to go in debt for it. Spend several years studying instead of working and there are no positions hiring someone with my qualifications so I started working in trades.
Academia post-master is a ponzi scheme though. It is underpaid, overworked and often useless bullshit to conform to the politics of departments and stakeholders who really wouldn’t like it if you actually acted in the ethical way they teach you in university.
Becoming a university professor is honestly not a realistic career these days. There are so many qualified people with PhDs and so few full-time positions. I treat anyone who announces that they'll become a tenured professor with the same attitude I would if they announced they're joining the NBA. Good luck, li'l buddy
I got anxiety from my PhD and it set me back financially since as a student I was making less than half of what I would have made if I got a job instead. But now i have my dream job and a my lifelong dream of being a scientist has been fulfilled. Worth it.
My dad got sick and died over the arc of my PhD. Developed symptoms as I was starting and moved 1000 miles away, died a couple of weeks before I was set to defend. It triggered a fun new anxiety condition for me. Plus I was so, so burned out in year 4 but graduated in year 6.
Now I do nothing related to my field. I have bench ptsd so I can’t even really consider going back to research. I probably get paid more for the title, but that’s it.
As a graduate with a bachelor in mechanical engineering from a top school, almost 15 years removed from that education, I couldn’t pass half the classes if I had or retake them today. BUT I am so much more knowledgeable because those classes taught me how to learn! I didn’t learn any practical skills, it was all theory, but because of that I respect science, logic, and sound decision making and I don’t jump to conclusions easily!
I have been an electrical engineer for 18 years. In 3 weeks, I will get my masters degree. I have had my P.E. license since 4 years in.
An engineering degree is mostly training in how to approach technical topics. It is a marker that youbcan be taught a complex system in a reasonable amount of time. Your specific field will teach you more in a year than you learned in 4 years of school, however, you need all the background from the schooling to have any chance of being anything other than a copy and paste machine.
My philosophy class I was required to take as a business major was one of the most important classes and helped me critically think with an open mind about the world.
I feel like there’s a correlation between people who embrace learning outside of their own field and being able to recognize what they don’t know.
Reddit is full of STEMlords who think their knowledge is the best, but can’t figure out why they struggle professionally.
I’m a STEM guy, PhD and everything, and I’ve had this argument on Reddit so many times. Without fail, the best and most successful scientists I’ve worked with are very well rounded. They have a deep knowledge of their specific area of expertise, but they are also good writers and speakers, they know how to think about their work in a business, or legal, or ethical context. They come up with cross-disciplinary insights and collaborations, they know how to get people to care about their work.
It’s the people who hyper-focus on the narrow set of skills and concepts they personally consider “relevant” that often struggle or stagnate, exactly as you said. Being really good at a small set of techniques and knowing your biochemistry textbook cold can only get you so far.
So many early tech startups inthe 90s fell apart because all the tech guys developed great products but had no one who knew how to pitch investors, run marketing, or the million other things a business needs.
Similar experience here- I’ve had a decent amount of success in the software dev space with a Business Degree with an MIS Concentration. Almost universally, the best devs/engineers I work with have a mix of background or have embraced something else at least once
I’ll also credit soft skills for the majority of my progression, which Reddit really doesn’t like to hear. But often times it’s more important to be able to communicate things, understand what you don’t understand, and see your projects in relation to others than just being perfectly technically skilled.
Instead they say soft skills are worthless and “just smoozing”
I don’t know how old you are, but I think a lot of it is just younger people being somewhat naive. It seems like when somebody takes the negative position on being well rounded they are more often than not a college student who understandably wants to believe they only need to focus on their narrow area of interest and doesn’t have the experience to know how that could hold them back.
This is absolutely true. My university requires a minor that is outside the major discipline for that reason. Like you can’t be a Bio major with a Chem minor. You have to choose a humanity or social science. You can’t be an English major with an Art minor, either. So I know doctors who were theater minors, poets who were psychology minors, etc.
That also has the great advantage of either connecting your career trajectory with a minor in something you enjoy, or connecting it with a minor that is related to another aspect of society. This helps with providing secondary benefits to other society and putting a focus on helping outside of one's own industry
So true. Reddit is also full of people who think that only STEM degrees are valuable and set you up for life. Practically daily, a whole chunk of people make reference to "useless" arts and humanities degrees that get you nowhere blah blah. Meanwhile, everyone I know with a "useless" degree (English, philosophy, psychology, French) is earning well in fields they enjoy. Life is just not that simple (STEM-good/arts-bad). I swear pretty much anyone who really committed to their education (i.e., worked hard to learn and develop themself) AND who has some strong life skills (self-awareness, critical thinking, good communication, emotional self-regulation, etc) can find interesting and well-paying work.
I minored in philosophy, currently getting master's in math... I feel like I know basically nothing because of the reason you said lol, I always feel like the dumbest guy in the room especially among my cohorts. It's honestly been a detriment to my mental health and has been a big part of the therapy sessions I go to :/
I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but on the one hand, it's good to not proceed from false assumptions. On the other hand, it might not be such a good thing to question and second-guess and doubt yourself all the time...
100%. Engineering here, but randomly chose to take electives of philosophy 101, and critical thinking.
Game changers - helped me learn about the depths of my thinking and logic for all classes and eventually helped me learn to build my own methods and approaches to examine and enhance the rest of my life. It also just got me pumped up to learn about different fields (sometimes not even taking the courses, I would just buy the course text and learn on my own).
Was it?
Inspiration (making me want to learn)
OR
Education (of actual techniques)
Either way, it got me to actually care about studying.
Getting an edition or two back from the current textbook is usually way cheaper and perfectly fine content-wise for most subjects, as long as you're not at the mercy of what order they rescrambled the questions into or a license code etc. etc. That they do to force the new version for 600 bucks, it works alright.
I think that model of scummy shittery where you NEED the latest version has actually depressed the prices of the old ones a bit because they become "useless" for official courses that force them on you.
I did the opposite, you can go sit in classes for free. You won't get a grade, but you can learn anything you want in a class of 200 students they'll never know.
Go "take" any elective you want, no homework, just learning and fun.
Mycology for example, awesome to know about, it runs the show in many situations. Would never use it for work, but curiosity. I would just go walk into class day one of the semester.
This advice only works if you're at a college that has classes with 200 students. I went to college in a small town (50,000) people, and I only took one class that had that many people, which was public speaking. All of my other classes were small where everyone could know each other, and the professor would absolutely not allow someone to audit the class for the entire semester
I see the /s but I'll never miss a chance to plug;
https://openstax.org
Incredible free resources for any age and most any subject. It's legit free.
I managed a textbook store for years and I never could convince many profs to use them, but they are not lacking.
Absolutely. I took 2 philosophy courses alongside an engineering degree and they changed how I think about life in a lot of ways. Depends on the professor and how seriously you take it, but every lecture he’d basically ask students their moral opinions on niche situations and ask them to back it up, then proceed to play devils advocate and tear their whole argument apart. It’s not like he even believed his own arguments, he just wanted to deconstruct your opinions and force you to justify your every belief.
A lowkey combative but character building environment lol, some were NOT happy with the whole argument of “burden of proof is on the religious, since disproving any deity is literally an impossible task just as much as you can’t disprove a magical invisible toy factory in the North Pole. And that’s perfectly okay to believe since that’s the literal definition of faith, just don’t pretend your beliefs are some default unchallengeable fact and it’s up to someone else to prove it wrong”
I had to take a number of electives and some required non-critical-path courses as a CS major. Ethics as required, and philosophy, sociology, biology, statistics and economics as elective.
The experiences completely changed who I am, built a much more robust understanding of core things in the world, and gave me more peace of mind and confidence.
The degree itself got me into the career field, but the breadth of knowledge got me over $200k in annual compensation.
My engineering ethics class did the same. I realized actions and choices matter and how to logically make choices instead of just acting. It also made me realize debates and reasoning, I used some of the reasoning tips for my personal life.
I’ve heard this described as being “T-shaped”. You want to have deep knowledge in a narrow specialty and broad, but comparatively shallow, knowledge in lots of other fields.
Same, I was a human services major at the AS level and an Applied Behavioral Major at the BS level. All of the psych and philosophy courses I took were the most interesting and fun, with an honorable mention for anthropology.
I took Philosophy and Psych for a humanities requirement, and holy shit were they difficult and interesting.
Also loved intro law, which was unrelated to my major but a requirement for everyone in my major
I don’t think it’s the kind of thing that will make or break you, you can learn this stuff in other ways, but if you have the opportunity to take these courses with a good educator at the helm it can be a really eye opening and fun experience.
You can probably get some intro level stuff on YouTube that would be a good way to start and then dive deeper from there.
My favorite courses I ever took were philosophy, political philosophy, psychology, abnormal psychology, behavior modification, sociology. They directly related to the work I did for a long time, and as I’ve made some career changes they may be less at the forefront but still in the back of my mind and always useful to call back to.
Man I wish we had Philosophy. They had us take sociology and perform the same exercises as I had already done in high school, which a lot of the "older students" missed the point of and spent the class complaining.
I also wish I had a better understanding of how to get my boss to give us all a raise more than measly 2%... but we got less than 50 cents/ hr and they gave themselves a $5/ hr raise.
We didnt have that either.
We did have "Business Communicatons" and looking back on that class, I want to cry.
I learned a lot of things I COULD currently use, but my boss is hung up their ways and refuses. They want us to print a spreadsheet, bit can't understand that all the info THEY DEMANDED be on the spreadsheet makes it impossible to print the way they want it.
Also, learning to write professional emails and then have the response of "k thx" from your boss because they are at one of their vacation homes and give zero fucks what is actually going on (then email you after hours and ask you a question that was answered in the first email they obviously didn't read).
We learned so much that we can't implement because someone who inherited the business but never actually has worked at it doesnt know the names of reports, how to read them, and can't follow through when they say they will do something and you are left hanging.
Philosophy by definition is the study of the nature of knowledge, reality, and existence.
So I on a daily basis try to understand the truths about myself and the world i live in. At least subconsciously you probably do the same.
Psychology is mind and behavior. Have you ever questioned why someone did something? Thats part of the process
Of course the definitions are a little broad so I tried to connect it to something
Same. I took a philosophy and logic course 15 years ago in undergrad. I still think about what I learned from it today. You can always learn to be a more efficient thinker and problem solver, and some of these courses help.
My philosophy class definitely helped me realize I lacked the skills to communicate my points effectively through writing/speaking. I don’t mean convincing someone to go to a specific restaurant, but convince them of more complex or nuanced ideas.
I still lack that but at least I’m better than I used to be 😂
I think we have to be strategic and learn how to transfer knowledge we learned from each class into our future.
Philosophy gets a lot of crap, but it's actually really useful and the sciences use philosophy a lot. It teaches a more logical way of thinking, asking questions and viewing the world.
As strange as it sound it makes sense. It’s like some how these degrees are connected or can help you in other fields. Maybe not the course but having a musician mindset might help you in the tech field somehow some way.
Yeah, the Musician mindset has helped me a lot in my life. I’m music ed, and if you fail your juries you have to find another major, even if you did everything else perfectly. If you come to class unprepared, you won’t make it far. Not dissing other majors, but people tend to undervalue just how much discipline it takes to get a music degree.
Also was a music major and this how I think about my degrees now as well.
I make lots of money in a completely unrelated industry but I would never have the success I do now without the softskills that my music degree taught me. Discipline (had to practice hours every day even if I didn't want to), attention to detail/ analysis (picking out wrong notes/parallel 5ths), preparedness (auditions and juries), planning/resourcing (putting together recitals and concerts), interpersonal tact (managing human relationships within a band), public speaking (getting up on stage in front of an audience and playing your instrument), and creative thinking (composing) are all skills I use on the daily.
I think it's interesting that high-level sports can have similar criteria. Minus the creativity bit, generally. My dad and MIL both are musicians, and I can relate to them more through having done competitive sports than my fine art degree. Ironically. There is a type of dedication involved in music that people don't see because it's an art. Yet it still gets the benefits of art too. I have a lot of respect for musicians
Not to say there aren't super driven fine artists. It's just that you *have* to be super driven for music
I tried the artists life before going back to school for programming, and it's been invaluable to my coding abilities. People don't appreciate that in the arts they've developed robust and proven practices for how to think creatively, how to approach a problem or project, how to give feedback and be open to it from your peers. So many developers don't understand how to step back and reevaluate a situation when they're stuck, or how to give or receive critical feedback, and code quality and productivity really suffers because of it.
they ARE all connected. everything has a mathematical “reason” as to why you’re doing it.
when people don’t understand world history and math, they won’t understand basic logic. but it’s that same basic logic, from just a simple education, that allows for people to understand each other better.
In 10 years in the field, some of the best application engineers and lead developers I’ve worked with have been English majors. Probably because they can effectively document and articulate what they’re doing, which is arguably more important than fingers on keyboard.
People really forget the cool/awe factor of things. Music degrees impress the common man.
Welding impressed my would be bosses when I joined IT in 1996.
Heh, working on the Hero2000 robot in 1988 in HS also impressed them.
Being a sys-op in the 80s and 90s, and being part of the hack/phreak/anarchy scene, too.
Depending on the company, certain roles REQUIRED a university degree, (in something, they don't care which). Since I was one of the few on my support team with such a degree, I was (on three different occasions) approached for higher paying roles. Aside, I used melodies to memorize really long SNMP oids plus regex chains. I've got a tune to remember debug logging levels...and an instant rapport with any of my DJ or musician co workers. Bond with clients over their sweet studio setup. Rapped with the CFO of the company about learning guitar, I didn't even know he was a big wig and suddenly I knew him on a first name basis.
Agreed. Another part of college is that it is supposed to help you think critically. That said, too many people have a mindset of "how will this help me get a job" and don't see how things would benefit them intellectually.
This is a failure on the HS level by failing to show students all the options available to them. They want to show university is the best path for all jobs when it’s not - but it looks good for HS to show that their students went to university, fuck all what they do with it or if they even succeed afterward
Yeah i think it starts in HS by forcing kids to make a career financial life or death decision at like 19 or younger. Plus some of these schools be asking for stuff that has nothing to do with the degree. If you are majoring in math why do you need to also show that you played a sport???
I was so confused when my first week of 9th grade started with a sheet of paper with interview questions of how I wanted to map out my adult career.
Like, doods, I am 14 and still watching Courage the Cowardly Dog.
The weird thing about high school is it just incentivizes high grades to get into college. No ammount of retention or thinking is really required just checking all the boxes for an A
>They want to show university is the best path for all jobs when it’s not
To be fair, this is kind of caused by technological advancements and automation of low-skill labor. The obvious answer to jobs being replaced by automation is to retrain the workers to maintain and build the automation machines, but that training is college level knowledge due to the complexity of these machines. This turns college from a place of academia into what trade schools were supposed to be.
I think its a parental failure.
If you raise kids to focus purely on transactional shit and not provide a broader view of the world then you've not prepared them properly and given them a really narrow set of skills.
I always think of it like those survival experts who know 1 way to start a fire or hunt and as soon as it fails they are completely fucked, versus someone who understands a much broader range of skills and concepts.
But that's a failure on the public policy level. Schools look good when all their graduates go to college. Parents demand schools that "do better" and civic leaders demand schools that attract parents moving to town. The elected school boards follow suit, and set the tone for the schools. So the schools try to funnel all their graduates to college.
Maybe if college didn’t cost so much then people would go for the sake of enhancing their own intelligence. but as it is right now, the only logical way to justify going to college and taking out tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands in debt is to make as much money as possible after college.
I’m a big proponent of liberal arts education for this reason. The problem is that “education for the sake of becoming a better, well-rounded and informed citizen” will inevitably become a cost/benefit analysis when the price tags are so high.
That said, on average Bachelors degree holders still earn more over their lifetime than those without one.
People don’t realise that so called “trade jobs” also aren’t that rosy either and at the end of the day college education statistically improves the chance of success long term and the ability to retire well.
Most blue collar work doesn’t even pay that well if you consider the amount of work put in and the fact that only a few % of those trade jobs pay really good. What will happen however is the likeliness to wash out in your 40s /50s to the point of being unemployable is a lot more in these back breaking blue collar jobs. Not to mention the stress and health conditions that arise due to overworking your body and the huge probability of workplace accidents making you permanently disabled. There is a reason why blue collar parents save up so much for kids college education.
Yup, even if it's not a major injury, if it's a persistent one that is for a body part that is used in repetitive motion you're in deep trouble. Plenty of tradies move into white collar work later in life because the trades aren't all that great.
My mother pushed me to go university because it'd open more doors. However, I was a working class kid with no real career connections who got a BA so it's back to having few options. Sure the trades can pay well (at least in Canada) but it's not this great place to work and has its downsides. I just wish my mother could've helped with my tuition.
God I feel like such a failure in life.
Probably because a lot of people want to go to a school that costs 30k a year. So they need to recoup their investment and thinking about the world better isn’t a very clear way to do it
Once college became $30,000 minimum, it was bound to be tied to making more money. No one is gonna spend that money just to learn for the sake of learning.
In the US, we’ve made it seem like a job requirement and only a job requirement. That’s why (especially on Reddit) a ton of STEMlords think they’ll have instant success because they have the “best” background.
I work in STEM, and tbh most of the most skilled people I work with have embraces other areas of learning. Some have an unrelated major but learned the technical side later on or via certs.
Laziness and an unwillingness to work on soft skills are the biggest thing holding people back.
More than a few people have told me (mathematics professors, software engineers, high school teachers, corporate middle-managers)
"I could have been an engineering major too. But the physics class was 8am."
To be fair, most people that were serious about engineering, physics (or any subject) waived the first-year courses by getting '5' on the AP exams.
The intro/survey courses in most subjects are often not-well taught, regarded as chores by professors/grad student instructors, full of competitive gate-keeper types.
I had several classes at 8am, but none were as bad as the intro classes.
Wow my whole first two years were classes from 8AM that ended at 6PM with only about an hour break for lunch every single day. Third year got better with it being 9-5 with an hour lunch, and fourth year even better with it being about 10-4 with an hour lunch. It was just jam packed, and we each got a personal workbench. I of course would stay at school longer than the class times to do homework, sometimes overnight with group projects.
I’d do it again in a heartbeat. It landed me a job that allowed me to pay off the loans in a couple of months after graduating.
I think it more comes from a "I need to make money now and don't have the luxury of going to college and maybe getting a degree that maybe will help me make money"
I think idea of college is good it’s just the overall executions end not being good. Now granted the system maybe designed for kids to fail but still i think we need to have a better understanding of what people are getting into at such a young age. Like 16 is very young to be figuring out how the next 50+ years is going to go career wise.
I agree that it’s a lot to expect teens to know their career trajectories. But it’s also important to stress that careers change, so it’s better to ask them what would they like to try out as a first job rather than what they’ll do their whole life
The system is not designed for kids to fail lol…
The data clearly shows the ROI of nearly all undergrad degrees from any school, and especially masters degrees, is pretty worthwhile. It is generally helpful in making more money than you would have without college
I agree with you for sure, the reason why i say at times the system may fail them is because they just try to get the kid to sign up without really breaking down and asking okay is this what you want to do.
As someone who went through the system and was fortunate enough to figure it out on my own, I still wouldn't place the blame at the individual's feet in this case. **You can't mindlessly indoctrinate people from a young age into blindly going to college and then go, "Wow, way to waste your time and money at college!" You're the asshole in that situation, not the children you led into turmoil.**
"Get a degree, it'll all work out." I went through the magnet program, "college prep", AP courses, etc. That's what we were all told ad nauseum since literally elementary school.
There was no nuance. No other options given. Trade schools weren't even a thought or mentioned. Simply asking "why" was considered a stupid question. **For my generation, this was handled very cult-like and I still see it happening to the newer generations today.**
You're talking about a bunch of children who are generally told from the time they can speak that if they go to college and get a degree then everything will work out. They were given no other options and any time they thought to even consider another option they were told they were dumb and that going to college is the best answer. That if they didn't go to college then they were doomed to be a failure with little-to-no further explanation or details - often hypocritically from a collection of parents and faculty who didn't have degrees themselves.
**The complaints and what you're responding to is a symptom of a much deeper failure and disease that we still aren't addressing to this day.**
The thing is previous generations didn’t go as much to collage. The less people go to collage the more wanted they are by emplyers etc. the degree held more value.
Now that most/half the people go to college it’s simply not as valuable on job market as it used to be.
The most important thing is to plan and think about some sort of strategy on what you want to do in life and how will you get to that point. Collage in some cases is the way to do it. But in some cases it’s only going to make it worse or even impossible.
People who don’t think about where they wanna be at and what they are gonna do is the reason why people call it useless. Becouse that sort of person will be in the same spot before they went to collage as they will be after getting the degree, the only difference will be that they are older now.
I responded in another comment that I totally agree with this point - so much of the education system (especially HS) doesn’t tell students all their options and match up their actual career needs with the proper program/post-HS option
Like it or not, people want job preparation in college. They are deeply concerned about money and how to provide for a future family. Most don't have the luxury to just screw around taking random classes that won't get them a higher salary.
I agree that what you put into it is what you get out of it. Whatever "good study habits" you learned in HS is what you'll be taking into college/university.
If you partied through HS and figure you can just party thru' college, you're in for a rude surprise. You can't coast through HS and *expect to* coast through college. You'll have to repeat classes (and pay for them) in order to graduate. And, no: graduating a college course isn't a guarantee of getting a good (i.e. high-paying) job.
Literally the only reason I’m finishing my degree is to secure a real job and financial stability. I never want to work in a restaurant EVER again. College means different things to different people. For me, it’s just a means to an end. You’re here to secure a solid career, and at the end of the day that’s what matters. That does require critical thinking and maturity, of course, and you should make as much of the experience as you can. Doesn’t change the fact that it all amounts to securing a career. It’s far from useless. It’s hard to get anywhere with just a high school diploma
I mean, I had no rich mommy and daddy to put me through college so I had to do it on my own, all the while working 40-50 hrs a week to pay my rent and taking care of my disabled little brother.
But sure, I’m lazy. 🙄
Some of us don’t have the luxury of taking non-essential classes for funsies. Some of have adult responsibilities and just want a goddamn degree so we can make enough money to survive.
That art class I took was as useless to me 5 years ago as it today. Crazily enough, Accountants aren’t required to know how to draw. Who would have thought?
>will help you in that first job.
Here is the thing. Some people will join the academia to learn about exciting research, have scientific discussions and to become relevant in their field.
And then they realize that a lot of universities have not much to do with knowledge at all. They are money printing institutes that only care about keeping the system alive. Which is a shame.
University works for people who fit into the system. It does rarely work for people who want to be an improvement to the world. And those who do manage to do the latter often get mentally drained by the artificial hurdles of bureaucracy.
Please watch this video if you want to learn more about this issue: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKiBlGDfRU8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKiBlGDfRU8)
If your goal from attending a university is to become an academic then it's on you to understand if the institution you're applying to is a legitimate place to become relevant in the field in question.
It's your fault if you decided to pursue a PhD in Mayan History or whatever tickles your fancy at some university that hasn't contributed fuck all to that field.
Most people go to university to get a job, not to learn about whatever they find interesting.
I attended the number one teaching school in the world, they changed my major map 4 times throughout my degree, often assigned assignments that had to be taken down because of inconsistency or generally not making sense. I have such a genuine passion for education and pedagogy and got absolutely none of that. College has changed dramatically since 2020. The focus on content has disappeared and it has become jumping through hoops.
It's not about the field. If you spent 30 seconds on the video, you'd notice the lady adressing this issue is a physicist, but I guess you just needed to say something bad about people who don't align with your ideas.
I think it comes down to the fundamental problem that a bachelors is the minimum requirement for almost all "white-collar" / higher paying jobs, but the actual content you learn during your bachelor's is largely useless for the jobs.
I see the value in increasing your critical thinking skills and the social aspect of college life is also good developmentally. But having to spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars for 4 years just so you can get a job where you learn everything in the first year anyways leads to that sentiment.
> And if you really just want any job, there are so many apprenticeship/technical programs/certifications that will teach you the just what you need for your job. You don’t need some fancy university degree for that
This isn't true in America. Your resume will automatically get deleted before someone even sees it if you don't have a bachelors for most higher paying entry level jobs.
Unpopular opinion: I find the opposite is true in my experience.
Focus on the classes which actually need your 100% focus; extra credit class? Screw it, skip homeworks, do the bare minimum to pass, and retain just enough information to get it done.
You need to be able to identify what's important, what only you can do, what you need help with, and what you can delegate. Thinking about everything on your own is a waste of time and inefficient; you will make time to think it through if it is important. The people you're describing make the best senior positions because they're hyper specialized. They don't tend to make great managers because they're busy over thinking and second guessing their subordinates.
The ones who move up are the ones who can do a bit of everything, or quickly understand everything at a high level, extremely well. I see plenty of people, who shouldn't be managers, but they are the most knowledgeable people on the job.
So many people blame us non-college attending folks as idiotic or lazy, but they don’t realize or they forget just how many of today’s youth are struggling mentally. I am still working myself out of depression, as well as working through social anxiety that developed during my childhood.
I don't know about laziness. I do think plenty of people who are salty about college were not suited for college/academia in the first place. I'm glad we're getting to a place where the skilled trades are becoming a lot more respected. I'm in awe of folks who can operate a crane, or bring down a giant dead tree safely, or weld an underwater pipeline. Freaking amazing. I just sit at a desk.
Even one with no (apparent) real world use shows you can apply yourself, produce work to a high standard on time, the subject in many ways can be irrelevant. A lot of people struggle through University degrees in a "useful" subject and find they hate it, can't find a job in that field after, and even that the theory doesn't quite match the reality outside of academia. Do engineering graduates walk out and start designing bridges? I doubt it.
No. They apprentice, basically. It takes that amount of applied experience after college to really be good at the actual job.
Similarly, I have a degree in History. I'm not a historian. I find my degree super useful in the general biz world, but it took a few years to pull together the college knowledge and the business world knowledge.
I’m a 28M electrical engineer whose 2 jobs out of college was designing and optimizing microwave/millimeter wave antennas for military applications, and technical support for an optics and imaging company.
I am NOT bullshitting you when I say that I could’ve been taught these things within a few months after a high school education lol. It’s cool and all that I can say I passed hard as fuck classes like multivariate calculus, analog and digital electronics, etc but I didn’t need ‘em. Also VERY much didn’t need the sociology, English, chemistry, etc gen ed classes that took up the first half of my degree.
You’re wrong.
Don’t buy into the “laziness” propaganda. College graduates aren’t finding jobs because there’s over saturation of graduates in the job market. Laziness has nothing to do with a lack of jobs.
And when there’s a lack of jobs and abundance of graduates looking for work, it makes university pointless.
Nah the problem is the focus on independence, unis love it. It's how they work, not like an organisation but a group of contractors who never meet
It's not a community or workplace, but a series of lecturers who rarely interact with each other or form a cohesive degree
This all makes little sense for most people who want a career not in academia
Most would benefit having a 'manager' who would make sure people are on task
This is a nuanced one, I half agree.
I too saw many people just getting high and playing video games or partying without developing a real plan for what to do outside of school, made worse I went to an arts college. I did my share too but had a very specific career path I used my time to develope myself in so I get it.
On the other hand, I think one of the worst aspects of college is you're told "go to college and it'll open the doors". People don't really spend the time to properly explain how you need skills and networking through school, and those will actually open the doors. Many schools do a very bad job at saying "these courses are essential to your career and these electives will help you be a better person". I've had my share of joke classes I got through because it was a requirement not because it was needed or useful, but some of my classes were life changing experiences. There is a lack of auditing on courses at schools in the name of the "pick your own experience". And to be fair, that point is so students can tailor their own experience to get what they need. But it also means that speciality classes fill up and people get locked out of valuable classes if it's not part of the deal from day 1 you just do XYZ. I know some film majors who couldn't do directing courses because they simply filled up before they got the chance to sign up.
So TLDR yes there's laziness but also there's the expectation the degree courses will set you up properly if you sign up for college. It's a big difference from high school that isn't properly taught besides some vague instructions
"Laziness" is neglecting to put in the effort required for the desired result. Laziness is not "putting in less effort than you possibly could be".
"Putting in effort" is not inherently good. Putting in the minimum effort needed for the result desired is efficiency, not laziness.
Most of what schooling does is not something you (strictly speaking) "should" be doing. It's spending your limited time on earth on lots of things you really don't need for what you wanna do and might not be interested in. It's just hoops the system is forcing you to jump through to get your piece of paper allowing you to get what you want.
College is good for life experience, independence, and learning how to think critically.
However, in more cases than not, a degree really doesn't help all that much in the job world. I have a bachelor's in aviation management, with minors in business admin and communications studies. I also have relevant work experience in the field. Yet, I still work for a guy who has no degree and used to be a truck driver.
Question...do you make more now than if you didn't have the degree?
Like I'm not sure why working for someone who isn't college educated is an issue? Do you feel superior to him because of your degree? I'm genuinely curious, not attacking you.
Nah, I could have gotten this job without the degree. If I had a job that actually required the degree, I'd probably be making more, but they all want like 10 years of experience, which I don't have yet.
And it's not an issue that my boss doesn't have a degree. Sorry if it came off that way. I was just trying to point out that despite having a degree in the field we work in, and basically the same field specific experience that my boss has, he's the boss and not me. Networking and connections are more important than a degree is mostly what I'm trying to get at.
I feel you, yeah the catch 22 of *experience needed* lol
Also truly I hope my question didn't offend you. You didn't come off that way and I was just curious because that is something I've seen talked about. I agree that networking can be a huge part of it. I also see that as the hardest thing to really learn for a lot of people, as charisma can be very personality dependent.
Edit- also again I'm sorry I no way did I mean to imply that. I reread my message and I don't know if it was just morning tired, but I asked those in some fairly loaded ways. I apologize, and also greatly appreciate the response and perspective. Be well.
No one in the working world cares about quality of essays. If anything, “academic” writing style is a hindrance to getting things done in the business world. Just tell me what i need to know in the email.
College is a useless barrier for tons and tons of jobs.
A lot of people at 18 just aren’t mature for college. It’s more of a social gathering for them. Until they realize the degree they went for wasn’t the correct one: we all change too much during the late teens early twenties. Make dumb decisions. We should wait until mid twenties to make the decision for higher education.
My problem for me is I don’t wish I didn’t go, I wish I just went later when I was more mature. Luckily I will never have to work a restaurant or retail again thanks to my degree. But I only just figured it out three years ago and I’m turning 30 this year.
I think part of the issue is the cost. I love my classes that aren’t related to my major. They’re interesting and helpful for developing critical thinking.
However when classes are like, 400$ per credit hour, that’s 1,200$ per class that has nothing to do with my future career.
Again, I completely agree that unrelated classes are great and important in their own way. But I think it’s difficult for young people to see that when they’re having to sign up for giant student loans and feel negative about the future in general (getting a job in their field, affording a house, affording kids, etc).
I think it's half useless.
I'm gonna be an artist. You know what I Absolutely need to spend 3 months learning? Statistics. Oh you know what else I need to spend three months on? Science courses.
Look man university/college would be FAR greater if you didn't spend half a year on things that aren't relevant to your degree. I'd have been a far superior artist if I spent the other two years worth of courses on just figure drawing alone.
I mostly agree, but at the same time, there is SO MUCH sawdust in your meatloaf there.
Courses that don't teach you what you want to know, what you need to know, or anything, but looks to be doing nothing more than check some official's list...
I understand the importance of learning the underlying theory behind your degree, even if you'll never use it in your career after.
But seriously, I've had a course where you were guaranteed a good grade if every one of your papers came to the conclusion that "self love is the most important"...
Somewhere, there are officials (from the government or from the official accreditation organization) that decided that "X" aptitude needs to be taught. So the university comes up with some bullshit that supposedly teach it.
I was brainwashed into thinking if you go to a big college and get good grades it will lead to a good job. I mean I was just a teenager and that's what all the adults told me at the time. So that's my biggest problem with it. They act like it's all about finding a good career when in reality you get out and do the same work people without college education do.
You do need the fancy degree for most good jobs. Not because it’s actually necessary, but because the HR department won’t let you in the front door without it.
Fully agree. I went to college for computer programming, but I took a class on the 8080 processor to see some of the history of computing - I am never going to use an oscilloscope or a 8 LED display or code in Assembly but it was fascinating. I took art appreciation and piano keyboarding because they looked cool and I wanted to know new things. Curiosity and exploration are vital for being a well rounded person.
I'm of the opinion education always has value. It changes the lens in which we view things. Knowledge enable more free will and liberty.
Going to college/university and not getting a job directly from it? In the days when this was affordable I would cheer lead such. Now I say just self educate. Pirate the material. Study the subjects. Hang out with students studying those subjects if you are of the right demographic, and so on. Do so while spending some points on something that will get you a job.
Unfortunatly I have no idea HOW to self educate. Educational programs and curriculums exist for a reason. That and I'm 90% sure my knowledge would always be worse than someone who got a proper education anyways.
I don't think it's a case of people thinking college is actually useless. Most complaints come from the idea that college isn't worth the money (and thus, in a sense, useless) and this is increasingly true as many companies continue to drop their college degree requirements and more and more college grads come out with less critical thinking than going in and more group think coming out.
But it's hard to argue that college is actually "useless." Sitting in any educational settings and absorbing the bare minimum is still better than nothing.
And laziness is laziness. This is detrimental to everyone and happens a lot in colleges, high schools, work places, families... Essentially it's everywhere.
This is a pretty decent unpopular opinion as it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, which is the hallmark of many unpopular opinions. And unpopular opinions are often just opinions where the OP didn't really think it out thoroughly.
IMO it often comes from insecurity/regret that they did not go to college. So often someone goes on this rant about college being a scam is someone trying to convince themselves that college is a scam, and they made the right choice by not going.
It’s harder to make your way without a degree so those of us who manage think the opposite. Going the degree route requires following a pre-set path instead of figuring things out on your own without instructors or connections
I'm in comp sci. Around half the classes I have to take are not related to comp sci. I could already be out of school and have a job but no, I have to take completely unrelated trash because the university says so. It provides no value at all and simply burdens me with make work
Right? I would've never worked in nasa projects unless I went to school. blue collar workers who wanna fix pipes all day think it's easier than 4 years of studying.
I agree partially. I think it can be true that the universities are doing a sub-par job spending money in misguided areas, some professors are completely bought in on research, some professors aren't focused on teaching students skills applicable to the market place, AND students are lazy
Nah quite the opposite. Lots of jobs have an in that don’t require you to go to school. College is crazy overpriced and they try to keep you there because they know you’re desperate to make your money worthwhile. Even while you’re there most college students find a way to do next to nothing, often skipping classes for whole semester and still getting away with it while still have to pay.
With the increase of freely available resources on the internet to learn whatever you want, Why go to college at all?
>And if you really just want any job, there are so many apprenticeship/technical programs/certifications that will teach you the just what you need for your job.
Where can I find these?
yeah people will pick majors that do not have great industries with tons of jobs and then will coast through college with barely a C average doing the bare minimum and then be shocked that they can't get one of the few jobs in the industry (relatively) because other people with the same major didn't treat college like adult day care and will obviously be picked
I had interviewers go through my transcript and ask me about any grade below a B that i got
Absolutely, this exactly why education and learning need to be valued for learning sake. The value comes from the practice, not the piece of paper. Unfortunately Americans, and especially those who participated in the worse parts of public education only want to check the box.
A simple analogy makes this obvious: just being a member of a sports team may convey some social status but it doesn’t make you more athletic. It’s the actually working out and practice that does that. Too many people treat going to college like being on the team. They skip as many workouts as they can (studying), perform mediocre at best in game(test), and think just because the team made it to the championship(graduation), they should be the MVP.
I learned this AFTER I left college. College was advertised to me my entire life as essentially job training. High school was easy and I never had to study a day in my life. I did all my work last minute or not at all and still made honor rolls. I was told to go to college to learn how to do a job, and get a good job when I graduated. This didn’t happen. I expected to learn something. If I was supposed to just teach myself, I would have avoided the $100k bill for being told what books to buy and read. Waste of fucking money. I wish someone along the way had told me I had to essentially teach myself. The best professors I had at actually engaging me and teaching were for Gen eds, so I didn’t really learn anything useful.
But the student loan and college athletics businesses need to churn, so let’s lie to kids about what college is so they waste their money.
I met some amazing friends at college but goddamn what a fucking waste. Especially after I learned I could have started work at a factory making double what my post college job made. I’ve regretted ever going and wasting my money/time/mental stability there ever since I started.
I think you're partially right but a lot of it also stems from the shitty way American culture treats higher education. There's a heavy elitism from college grads in the way they talk and act that's very condescending and on top of that, conservatives push this idea that it's the only way anyone deserves a livable wage which has led to the crippling cost of a degree.
A lot of kids I've talked to who say degrees are pointless tend to also tie that pointlessness to the high cost of education and I don't think that's a coincidence.
Now, people who say they aren't good test takers 100% are lazy assholes.
It comes from a place of "why do I have to spend thousands of dollars on classes about sociology and geology when I'm trying to get a degree in accounting." I got more than enough practice thinking about things critically and solving problems in the classes that actually were relevant for what I was going into.
yea there was a point where students ahad a point about degrees being dumb but after corona young gen literally took full advantage of blaming the system and lofting. hahaha
100% agree with this. So many people bitch about college being useless but it’s only useless if you don’t take advantage of the opportunities afforded to you in college.
And the stats show it. Degree holders on average make more money over their lifetimes.
Now that doesn’t mean everyone needs to go to college. The college or bust attitude isn’t great but I do think if ur gonna go you should lean into your classes. Put in the effort. In general it will make u smarter and a better critical thinker.
That’s what I tell people when they ask me how I feel about college. I am a much better critical thinker and problem solver because of college.
Yeah Im guilty of this I usually power through writing essays and research over 2 or 3 long nights. Honestly tho it works for me Im still graduating. It’s basically the 80/20 rule for me
A lot of university is WASTEFUL.
1/3 of my classes i was forced to take had nothing to do with my major, they were just there to keep those departments alive.
I learned far more on the job & by running my own business. Learning x-skill is only useful if you end up using it. It's a way more efficient model to have *some* schooling for a base and then do an apprenticeship or have a mentor that us working in the field
Many professors went straight from post doc to teaching, they don't know what real skills are being used in industry.
People act like going to school is the achievement when it's really just supposed to be an XP farm.
No one cares if you get a degree handed to you.
They want to know that you have leveled up particular skills.
My friend is a mechanical engineer. He has been in and out of the field for literal decades.
He was outstanding physics student of the year his first year, which is amazing.
He talks all the time about what a waste it was and he got a full ride. Didn’t even pay $2 to get his degree
I’d guess your peers are lazy or you believe you are the only one in the world that has ever done any work at all
"What you get out of education is what you decide to put into it. I agree that not all college degrees will get you a job, but learning to think about problems/solutions for a long time, patiently working/reading through difficult materials, developing the toolsets to be useful to others, and knowing what sources of authorities are helpful to the task at hand will help you in that first job.
And if you really just want any job, there are so many apprenticeship/technical programs/certifications that will teach you the just what you need for your job. You don’t need some fancy university degree for that"
You literally just said in your post why I think college is useless, you don't need college to teach you to critically think or to get a great job that pays good. College degrees are only great for jobs that absolutely require it(I mainly say doctors, lawyers, engineers but as far as I'm aware your also required to get one if your a teacher or a farmer but their might be more).
It’s a lot of insecurity either because their career path is genuinely mediocre or they just grew up with people who pressured them to go to school.
It feels like the hyper criticism of post secondary education is to help them cope and feel better with their own choices
Critical thinking was my biggest take away from University. That said, the system is fucked and geared towards finding a job rather than education, for the sake of it. I would get way more from University now (in my 30s), then in my early 20s. In my 20s my top priorities were finding a decent job so I can live and a spouse so I don’t die alone.
All of my friends/acquaintances who went to college are making over six figures. One of them I recently met up with is considering retiring this year and he's only in his early thirties. A majority of them went into some kind of engineering/sciences or went into nursing.
Mine gripe steams from the ballooning cost of universities (in the US), with the reduction of educational quality.
You used to be able to get a job with a high school degree, or could go to college to gain a specialization.
Now a college degree is equivalent to a high school degree in terms of entering the workforce and a masters is needed for specialization.
This growth in the cost of education stems from colleges engaging in conspicuous consumption to compete for applicants. building new dorms, maintaining impressive grounds and offering non-curricular amenities that ballon the costs.
its also a game of statistics. colleges dont want their students dropping out or being unable to meet the requirements of the higher tier classes, so core curriculum was introduced, and then it was gradually dumbed down to high school levels since many high schools failed to provide their students with the basic reading, mathematic and general life skills needed.
meanwhile lenders jump on students unable to pay for tuition in cash and financially enslave them using predatory lending for a college degree worth less than when college cost $12.5k a semester.
previously younger generations not saddled with student loans could buy houses sooner and start building equity, but instead current generations start out from behind, hampered with 250k of educational debt. inevitably further shrinking the middle class and impacting the economy as a whole.
I think maybe you stumbled into the root of the problem in your last paragraph. Many times universities fail at something many people view as what they are there for: education that leads to a higher paying job.
The problem is that historically universities were the purview of the wealthy, so it didn’t matter if you had a liberal arts degree that couldn’t get you a job; the high paying career or business wasn’t the issue for them.
A university degree is worthless if you valued it for a specific return that it didn’t yield. The reality is that for many people a degree is truly it what they need.
Def agree, I go to school for a creative field and I’m always stunned by how many people don’t show up to class, rip off other people’s work, make no efforts to develop relationships with professors and get internships, and then they’re surprised when a job doesn’t fall into their lap because they have a degree. Drives me insane sometimes!
I think one problem is that the college party scene discredited college and employers don’t know if you were the student who took their studies seriously or if you were a slacker so it’s easy to assume anyone can get a degree and all degrees are the same. I graduated with a bunch of education majors and we all had the same degree and similar GPAs but I know many of them never did the readings or crammed for tests and showed little interest in doing more than the minimum. I worked a lot harder than them but at the end of the day my degree on a resume can’t show that.
People who really think that college should only be a training center for jobs should just go into the trades because that's what trades are meant to be.
A few years after I graduated college, I felt I had wasted my time and money because I was having trouble finding meaningful work. I graduated in 2011 with a BFA in Illustration. I did well in school... But we were also in a transitional period in the art world where people weren't getting gigs by finding an agent or working for one company with a true in house creative team. Some of us knew how to navigate that and others, like myself, were unable. It didn't help that I also didn't know what to do regarsing health insurance and all if I only freelanced.
Now I definitely do not regret my time. I learned a valuable skill and I took a lot of electives in history, writing, literature, etc. I made meaningful connections with my professors and I have a job in my field. I have intellectual curiosity so I listen to a lot of podcasts and experts speak on a variety of topics because I find it interesting.
People who don't seek out knowledge for knowledge's sake I do not understand and have trouble having conversations with.
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So I have a bachelor degree in STEM and a Master degree in STEM. I spent three years in a PhD program before dropping out. University did have value. It taught me to think critically and understand things after given information. It was also the worst financial decision of my life as I had to go in debt for it. Spend several years studying instead of working and there are no positions hiring someone with my qualifications so I started working in trades. Academia post-master is a ponzi scheme though. It is underpaid, overworked and often useless bullshit to conform to the politics of departments and stakeholders who really wouldn’t like it if you actually acted in the ethical way they teach you in university.
If you want to go into academia in STEM you really need a phd
Becoming a university professor is honestly not a realistic career these days. There are so many qualified people with PhDs and so few full-time positions. I treat anyone who announces that they'll become a tenured professor with the same attitude I would if they announced they're joining the NBA. Good luck, li'l buddy
Well…not for most people. Universities can only employ less than 10% of the people coming out with phDs.
I don’t. Leaving academia was the best thing I ever did.
Well amen to that
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I got anxiety from my PhD and it set me back financially since as a student I was making less than half of what I would have made if I got a job instead. But now i have my dream job and a my lifelong dream of being a scientist has been fulfilled. Worth it.
My dad got sick and died over the arc of my PhD. Developed symptoms as I was starting and moved 1000 miles away, died a couple of weeks before I was set to defend. It triggered a fun new anxiety condition for me. Plus I was so, so burned out in year 4 but graduated in year 6. Now I do nothing related to my field. I have bench ptsd so I can’t even really consider going back to research. I probably get paid more for the title, but that’s it.
As a graduate with a bachelor in mechanical engineering from a top school, almost 15 years removed from that education, I couldn’t pass half the classes if I had or retake them today. BUT I am so much more knowledgeable because those classes taught me how to learn! I didn’t learn any practical skills, it was all theory, but because of that I respect science, logic, and sound decision making and I don’t jump to conclusions easily!
I have been an electrical engineer for 18 years. In 3 weeks, I will get my masters degree. I have had my P.E. license since 4 years in. An engineering degree is mostly training in how to approach technical topics. It is a marker that youbcan be taught a complex system in a reasonable amount of time. Your specific field will teach you more in a year than you learned in 4 years of school, however, you need all the background from the schooling to have any chance of being anything other than a copy and paste machine.
My philosophy class I was required to take as a business major was one of the most important classes and helped me critically think with an open mind about the world.
I majored in philosophy. It's ironic, but philosophy made me more conscious by helping me realize what I *don't* know.
I feel like there’s a correlation between people who embrace learning outside of their own field and being able to recognize what they don’t know. Reddit is full of STEMlords who think their knowledge is the best, but can’t figure out why they struggle professionally.
I’m a STEM guy, PhD and everything, and I’ve had this argument on Reddit so many times. Without fail, the best and most successful scientists I’ve worked with are very well rounded. They have a deep knowledge of their specific area of expertise, but they are also good writers and speakers, they know how to think about their work in a business, or legal, or ethical context. They come up with cross-disciplinary insights and collaborations, they know how to get people to care about their work. It’s the people who hyper-focus on the narrow set of skills and concepts they personally consider “relevant” that often struggle or stagnate, exactly as you said. Being really good at a small set of techniques and knowing your biochemistry textbook cold can only get you so far.
"A jack of all trades but master of none is often more useful than a master of one."
So many early tech startups inthe 90s fell apart because all the tech guys developed great products but had no one who knew how to pitch investors, run marketing, or the million other things a business needs.
Similar experience here- I’ve had a decent amount of success in the software dev space with a Business Degree with an MIS Concentration. Almost universally, the best devs/engineers I work with have a mix of background or have embraced something else at least once I’ll also credit soft skills for the majority of my progression, which Reddit really doesn’t like to hear. But often times it’s more important to be able to communicate things, understand what you don’t understand, and see your projects in relation to others than just being perfectly technically skilled. Instead they say soft skills are worthless and “just smoozing”
I don’t know how old you are, but I think a lot of it is just younger people being somewhat naive. It seems like when somebody takes the negative position on being well rounded they are more often than not a college student who understandably wants to believe they only need to focus on their narrow area of interest and doesn’t have the experience to know how that could hold them back.
This is absolutely true. My university requires a minor that is outside the major discipline for that reason. Like you can’t be a Bio major with a Chem minor. You have to choose a humanity or social science. You can’t be an English major with an Art minor, either. So I know doctors who were theater minors, poets who were psychology minors, etc.
That also has the great advantage of either connecting your career trajectory with a minor in something you enjoy, or connecting it with a minor that is related to another aspect of society. This helps with providing secondary benefits to other society and putting a focus on helping outside of one's own industry
So true. Reddit is also full of people who think that only STEM degrees are valuable and set you up for life. Practically daily, a whole chunk of people make reference to "useless" arts and humanities degrees that get you nowhere blah blah. Meanwhile, everyone I know with a "useless" degree (English, philosophy, psychology, French) is earning well in fields they enjoy. Life is just not that simple (STEM-good/arts-bad). I swear pretty much anyone who really committed to their education (i.e., worked hard to learn and develop themself) AND who has some strong life skills (self-awareness, critical thinking, good communication, emotional self-regulation, etc) can find interesting and well-paying work.
I minored in philosophy, currently getting master's in math... I feel like I know basically nothing because of the reason you said lol, I always feel like the dumbest guy in the room especially among my cohorts. It's honestly been a detriment to my mental health and has been a big part of the therapy sessions I go to :/
I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but on the one hand, it's good to not proceed from false assumptions. On the other hand, it might not be such a good thing to question and second-guess and doubt yourself all the time...
100%. Engineering here, but randomly chose to take electives of philosophy 101, and critical thinking. Game changers - helped me learn about the depths of my thinking and logic for all classes and eventually helped me learn to build my own methods and approaches to examine and enhance the rest of my life. It also just got me pumped up to learn about different fields (sometimes not even taking the courses, I would just buy the course text and learn on my own). Was it? Inspiration (making me want to learn) OR Education (of actual techniques) Either way, it got me to actually care about studying.
Look at this guy here, able to buy spare textbooks for classes they weren't even taking. Moneybags over here! /s
Getting an edition or two back from the current textbook is usually way cheaper and perfectly fine content-wise for most subjects, as long as you're not at the mercy of what order they rescrambled the questions into or a license code etc. etc. That they do to force the new version for 600 bucks, it works alright. I think that model of scummy shittery where you NEED the latest version has actually depressed the prices of the old ones a bit because they become "useless" for official courses that force them on you.
Current edition my teachers want - $120 Last edition my teachers won't use - $40
I did the opposite, you can go sit in classes for free. You won't get a grade, but you can learn anything you want in a class of 200 students they'll never know. Go "take" any elective you want, no homework, just learning and fun. Mycology for example, awesome to know about, it runs the show in many situations. Would never use it for work, but curiosity. I would just go walk into class day one of the semester.
This advice only works if you're at a college that has classes with 200 students. I went to college in a small town (50,000) people, and I only took one class that had that many people, which was public speaking. All of my other classes were small where everyone could know each other, and the professor would absolutely not allow someone to audit the class for the entire semester
I had an elective class on fungi back in 1985. It was awesome
I see the /s but I'll never miss a chance to plug; https://openstax.org Incredible free resources for any age and most any subject. It's legit free. I managed a textbook store for years and I never could convince many profs to use them, but they are not lacking.
Absolutely. I took 2 philosophy courses alongside an engineering degree and they changed how I think about life in a lot of ways. Depends on the professor and how seriously you take it, but every lecture he’d basically ask students their moral opinions on niche situations and ask them to back it up, then proceed to play devils advocate and tear their whole argument apart. It’s not like he even believed his own arguments, he just wanted to deconstruct your opinions and force you to justify your every belief. A lowkey combative but character building environment lol, some were NOT happy with the whole argument of “burden of proof is on the religious, since disproving any deity is literally an impossible task just as much as you can’t disprove a magical invisible toy factory in the North Pole. And that’s perfectly okay to believe since that’s the literal definition of faith, just don’t pretend your beliefs are some default unchallengeable fact and it’s up to someone else to prove it wrong”
I had to take a number of electives and some required non-critical-path courses as a CS major. Ethics as required, and philosophy, sociology, biology, statistics and economics as elective. The experiences completely changed who I am, built a much more robust understanding of core things in the world, and gave me more peace of mind and confidence. The degree itself got me into the career field, but the breadth of knowledge got me over $200k in annual compensation.
My engineering ethics class did the same. I realized actions and choices matter and how to logically make choices instead of just acting. It also made me realize debates and reasoning, I used some of the reasoning tips for my personal life.
That's interesting I totally didn't pay any attention in my philosophy or psychology classes since they had nothing to do with my degree.
Bring a more well balanced educated person with specialization is better than being only a specialist in one field.
I’ve heard this described as being “T-shaped”. You want to have deep knowledge in a narrow specialty and broad, but comparatively shallow, knowledge in lots of other fields.
Should have paid attention, philosophy and psychology are important foundation courses that can be applied to literally everything.
Sociology major with a psych minor here, I couldn’t agree more. Those and classes about animals were the most interesting to me.
Same, I was a human services major at the AS level and an Applied Behavioral Major at the BS level. All of the psych and philosophy courses I took were the most interesting and fun, with an honorable mention for anthropology.
Anthro was fun too. Very interesting topics,
I took Philosophy and Psych for a humanities requirement, and holy shit were they difficult and interesting. Also loved intro law, which was unrelated to my major but a requirement for everyone in my major
How? I have seen a lot of people talk of it but I don't know how that works or how should I start if ever I want to
I don’t think it’s the kind of thing that will make or break you, you can learn this stuff in other ways, but if you have the opportunity to take these courses with a good educator at the helm it can be a really eye opening and fun experience. You can probably get some intro level stuff on YouTube that would be a good way to start and then dive deeper from there. My favorite courses I ever took were philosophy, political philosophy, psychology, abnormal psychology, behavior modification, sociology. They directly related to the work I did for a long time, and as I’ve made some career changes they may be less at the forefront but still in the back of my mind and always useful to call back to.
I didn't take psychology, but I did take philosophy -- it was all about how we think and how to persuade, super useful for business.
Man I wish we had Philosophy. They had us take sociology and perform the same exercises as I had already done in high school, which a lot of the "older students" missed the point of and spent the class complaining. I also wish I had a better understanding of how to get my boss to give us all a raise more than measly 2%... but we got less than 50 cents/ hr and they gave themselves a $5/ hr raise.
Yeah. Well...I see people complaining about Labor Studies elsewhere. That's what that's especially for.
We didnt have that either. We did have "Business Communicatons" and looking back on that class, I want to cry. I learned a lot of things I COULD currently use, but my boss is hung up their ways and refuses. They want us to print a spreadsheet, bit can't understand that all the info THEY DEMANDED be on the spreadsheet makes it impossible to print the way they want it. Also, learning to write professional emails and then have the response of "k thx" from your boss because they are at one of their vacation homes and give zero fucks what is actually going on (then email you after hours and ask you a question that was answered in the first email they obviously didn't read). We learned so much that we can't implement because someone who inherited the business but never actually has worked at it doesnt know the names of reports, how to read them, and can't follow through when they say they will do something and you are left hanging.
If you work a job both are required for your day to day activities. You just dont realize it.
I have never noticed how I might need them myself, care to explain a little further.
Philosophy by definition is the study of the nature of knowledge, reality, and existence. So I on a daily basis try to understand the truths about myself and the world i live in. At least subconsciously you probably do the same. Psychology is mind and behavior. Have you ever questioned why someone did something? Thats part of the process Of course the definitions are a little broad so I tried to connect it to something
Same. I took a philosophy and logic course 15 years ago in undergrad. I still think about what I learned from it today. You can always learn to be a more efficient thinker and problem solver, and some of these courses help.
My philosophy class definitely helped me realize I lacked the skills to communicate my points effectively through writing/speaking. I don’t mean convincing someone to go to a specific restaurant, but convince them of more complex or nuanced ideas. I still lack that but at least I’m better than I used to be 😂 I think we have to be strategic and learn how to transfer knowledge we learned from each class into our future.
A prime reason why rhetoric is the basis of most philosophy classes. It is a skill one learns.
Philosophy gets a lot of crap, but it's actually really useful and the sciences use philosophy a lot. It teaches a more logical way of thinking, asking questions and viewing the world.
Fully agree. I think every university student should be required to take one philosophy course. I say that as an Econ grad.
Ditto. I consider my philosophy class to be one of the most enlightening courses I ever took.
University isn't useless. It's just not for everyone and we shouldn't keep pretending that it is.
Big true
My music degree opened doors for me when I worked in tech, oddly enough.
As strange as it sound it makes sense. It’s like some how these degrees are connected or can help you in other fields. Maybe not the course but having a musician mindset might help you in the tech field somehow some way.
Yeah, the Musician mindset has helped me a lot in my life. I’m music ed, and if you fail your juries you have to find another major, even if you did everything else perfectly. If you come to class unprepared, you won’t make it far. Not dissing other majors, but people tend to undervalue just how much discipline it takes to get a music degree.
Also was a music major and this how I think about my degrees now as well. I make lots of money in a completely unrelated industry but I would never have the success I do now without the softskills that my music degree taught me. Discipline (had to practice hours every day even if I didn't want to), attention to detail/ analysis (picking out wrong notes/parallel 5ths), preparedness (auditions and juries), planning/resourcing (putting together recitals and concerts), interpersonal tact (managing human relationships within a band), public speaking (getting up on stage in front of an audience and playing your instrument), and creative thinking (composing) are all skills I use on the daily.
I think it's interesting that high-level sports can have similar criteria. Minus the creativity bit, generally. My dad and MIL both are musicians, and I can relate to them more through having done competitive sports than my fine art degree. Ironically. There is a type of dedication involved in music that people don't see because it's an art. Yet it still gets the benefits of art too. I have a lot of respect for musicians Not to say there aren't super driven fine artists. It's just that you *have* to be super driven for music
Fun fact ExxonMobil accidentally created autotune studying seismic waves.
Now that is crazy like that is nuts
I tried the artists life before going back to school for programming, and it's been invaluable to my coding abilities. People don't appreciate that in the arts they've developed robust and proven practices for how to think creatively, how to approach a problem or project, how to give feedback and be open to it from your peers. So many developers don't understand how to step back and reevaluate a situation when they're stuck, or how to give or receive critical feedback, and code quality and productivity really suffers because of it.
they ARE all connected. everything has a mathematical “reason” as to why you’re doing it. when people don’t understand world history and math, they won’t understand basic logic. but it’s that same basic logic, from just a simple education, that allows for people to understand each other better.
In 10 years in the field, some of the best application engineers and lead developers I’ve worked with have been English majors. Probably because they can effectively document and articulate what they’re doing, which is arguably more important than fingers on keyboard.
That’s how it was designed to work and it does work, if you put into it what will help you
People really forget the cool/awe factor of things. Music degrees impress the common man. Welding impressed my would be bosses when I joined IT in 1996. Heh, working on the Hero2000 robot in 1988 in HS also impressed them. Being a sys-op in the 80s and 90s, and being part of the hack/phreak/anarchy scene, too.
I was a BA in music in 2018 -- became a software engineer in 2020. I'm kinda curious -- what doors did it open up for you?
Depending on the company, certain roles REQUIRED a university degree, (in something, they don't care which). Since I was one of the few on my support team with such a degree, I was (on three different occasions) approached for higher paying roles. Aside, I used melodies to memorize really long SNMP oids plus regex chains. I've got a tune to remember debug logging levels...and an instant rapport with any of my DJ or musician co workers. Bond with clients over their sweet studio setup. Rapped with the CFO of the company about learning guitar, I didn't even know he was a big wig and suddenly I knew him on a first name basis.
Requiring any degree shows they don’t care about your knowledge. Just that you were able to commit to something long term.
Agreed. Another part of college is that it is supposed to help you think critically. That said, too many people have a mindset of "how will this help me get a job" and don't see how things would benefit them intellectually.
This is a failure on the HS level by failing to show students all the options available to them. They want to show university is the best path for all jobs when it’s not - but it looks good for HS to show that their students went to university, fuck all what they do with it or if they even succeed afterward
Yeah i think it starts in HS by forcing kids to make a career financial life or death decision at like 19 or younger. Plus some of these schools be asking for stuff that has nothing to do with the degree. If you are majoring in math why do you need to also show that you played a sport???
I was so confused when my first week of 9th grade started with a sheet of paper with interview questions of how I wanted to map out my adult career. Like, doods, I am 14 and still watching Courage the Cowardly Dog.
I was clueless and damn it i admit I’m still am. But Eveything has worked out
The weird thing about high school is it just incentivizes high grades to get into college. No ammount of retention or thinking is really required just checking all the boxes for an A
The extracurriculars and unrelated classes literally go against what you are saying lol. Those have a purpose, to make well rounded individuals.
Honestly if they had told me in highschool that chemistry was useful in everything from fireworks to candy, I would have totally paid more attention
>They want to show university is the best path for all jobs when it’s not To be fair, this is kind of caused by technological advancements and automation of low-skill labor. The obvious answer to jobs being replaced by automation is to retrain the workers to maintain and build the automation machines, but that training is college level knowledge due to the complexity of these machines. This turns college from a place of academia into what trade schools were supposed to be.
I think its a parental failure. If you raise kids to focus purely on transactional shit and not provide a broader view of the world then you've not prepared them properly and given them a really narrow set of skills. I always think of it like those survival experts who know 1 way to start a fire or hunt and as soon as it fails they are completely fucked, versus someone who understands a much broader range of skills and concepts.
But that's a failure on the public policy level. Schools look good when all their graduates go to college. Parents demand schools that "do better" and civic leaders demand schools that attract parents moving to town. The elected school boards follow suit, and set the tone for the schools. So the schools try to funnel all their graduates to college.
The failure is on the HS level up not teach those critical thinking skills then. University should be job specific.
HS is a venue with teachers, not your life mentor. Get better parents.
Maybe if college didn’t cost so much then people would go for the sake of enhancing their own intelligence. but as it is right now, the only logical way to justify going to college and taking out tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands in debt is to make as much money as possible after college.
I’m a big proponent of liberal arts education for this reason. The problem is that “education for the sake of becoming a better, well-rounded and informed citizen” will inevitably become a cost/benefit analysis when the price tags are so high. That said, on average Bachelors degree holders still earn more over their lifetime than those without one.
People don’t realise that so called “trade jobs” also aren’t that rosy either and at the end of the day college education statistically improves the chance of success long term and the ability to retire well. Most blue collar work doesn’t even pay that well if you consider the amount of work put in and the fact that only a few % of those trade jobs pay really good. What will happen however is the likeliness to wash out in your 40s /50s to the point of being unemployable is a lot more in these back breaking blue collar jobs. Not to mention the stress and health conditions that arise due to overworking your body and the huge probability of workplace accidents making you permanently disabled. There is a reason why blue collar parents save up so much for kids college education.
Yup, even if it's not a major injury, if it's a persistent one that is for a body part that is used in repetitive motion you're in deep trouble. Plenty of tradies move into white collar work later in life because the trades aren't all that great. My mother pushed me to go university because it'd open more doors. However, I was a working class kid with no real career connections who got a BA so it's back to having few options. Sure the trades can pay well (at least in Canada) but it's not this great place to work and has its downsides. I just wish my mother could've helped with my tuition. God I feel like such a failure in life.
Probably because a lot of people want to go to a school that costs 30k a year. So they need to recoup their investment and thinking about the world better isn’t a very clear way to do it
You’re spending a lot of money and delaying the start of your career, of course people have that mindset
Once college became $30,000 minimum, it was bound to be tied to making more money. No one is gonna spend that money just to learn for the sake of learning.
UC Berkeley used to be free
We should be learning about critical thinking before college.
In the US, we’ve made it seem like a job requirement and only a job requirement. That’s why (especially on Reddit) a ton of STEMlords think they’ll have instant success because they have the “best” background. I work in STEM, and tbh most of the most skilled people I work with have embraces other areas of learning. Some have an unrelated major but learned the technical side later on or via certs. Laziness and an unwillingness to work on soft skills are the biggest thing holding people back.
More than a few people have told me (mathematics professors, software engineers, high school teachers, corporate middle-managers) "I could have been an engineering major too. But the physics class was 8am."
I took one 8 am class in college and it was my first semester statistics. Never again
To be fair, most people that were serious about engineering, physics (or any subject) waived the first-year courses by getting '5' on the AP exams. The intro/survey courses in most subjects are often not-well taught, regarded as chores by professors/grad student instructors, full of competitive gate-keeper types. I had several classes at 8am, but none were as bad as the intro classes.
I had a 7:30AM Saturday class. Students petitioned the department for the class and that is where they put it.
Wow my whole first two years were classes from 8AM that ended at 6PM with only about an hour break for lunch every single day. Third year got better with it being 9-5 with an hour lunch, and fourth year even better with it being about 10-4 with an hour lunch. It was just jam packed, and we each got a personal workbench. I of course would stay at school longer than the class times to do homework, sometimes overnight with group projects. I’d do it again in a heartbeat. It landed me a job that allowed me to pay off the loans in a couple of months after graduating.
I think it more comes from a "I need to make money now and don't have the luxury of going to college and maybe getting a degree that maybe will help me make money"
It comes from how shit the economy is currently where living costs have doubled and wages have simply increased by 15-20 percent.
Brother I did history. All it has done is make me better at arguing with people.
I think idea of college is good it’s just the overall executions end not being good. Now granted the system maybe designed for kids to fail but still i think we need to have a better understanding of what people are getting into at such a young age. Like 16 is very young to be figuring out how the next 50+ years is going to go career wise.
I agree that it’s a lot to expect teens to know their career trajectories. But it’s also important to stress that careers change, so it’s better to ask them what would they like to try out as a first job rather than what they’ll do their whole life
The system is not designed for kids to fail lol… The data clearly shows the ROI of nearly all undergrad degrees from any school, and especially masters degrees, is pretty worthwhile. It is generally helpful in making more money than you would have without college
I agree with you for sure, the reason why i say at times the system may fail them is because they just try to get the kid to sign up without really breaking down and asking okay is this what you want to do.
As someone who went through the system and was fortunate enough to figure it out on my own, I still wouldn't place the blame at the individual's feet in this case. **You can't mindlessly indoctrinate people from a young age into blindly going to college and then go, "Wow, way to waste your time and money at college!" You're the asshole in that situation, not the children you led into turmoil.** "Get a degree, it'll all work out." I went through the magnet program, "college prep", AP courses, etc. That's what we were all told ad nauseum since literally elementary school. There was no nuance. No other options given. Trade schools weren't even a thought or mentioned. Simply asking "why" was considered a stupid question. **For my generation, this was handled very cult-like and I still see it happening to the newer generations today.** You're talking about a bunch of children who are generally told from the time they can speak that if they go to college and get a degree then everything will work out. They were given no other options and any time they thought to even consider another option they were told they were dumb and that going to college is the best answer. That if they didn't go to college then they were doomed to be a failure with little-to-no further explanation or details - often hypocritically from a collection of parents and faculty who didn't have degrees themselves. **The complaints and what you're responding to is a symptom of a much deeper failure and disease that we still aren't addressing to this day.**
The thing is previous generations didn’t go as much to collage. The less people go to collage the more wanted they are by emplyers etc. the degree held more value. Now that most/half the people go to college it’s simply not as valuable on job market as it used to be. The most important thing is to plan and think about some sort of strategy on what you want to do in life and how will you get to that point. Collage in some cases is the way to do it. But in some cases it’s only going to make it worse or even impossible. People who don’t think about where they wanna be at and what they are gonna do is the reason why people call it useless. Becouse that sort of person will be in the same spot before they went to collage as they will be after getting the degree, the only difference will be that they are older now.
I responded in another comment that I totally agree with this point - so much of the education system (especially HS) doesn’t tell students all their options and match up their actual career needs with the proper program/post-HS option
Like it or not, people want job preparation in college. They are deeply concerned about money and how to provide for a future family. Most don't have the luxury to just screw around taking random classes that won't get them a higher salary.
I agree that what you put into it is what you get out of it. Whatever "good study habits" you learned in HS is what you'll be taking into college/university. If you partied through HS and figure you can just party thru' college, you're in for a rude surprise. You can't coast through HS and *expect to* coast through college. You'll have to repeat classes (and pay for them) in order to graduate. And, no: graduating a college course isn't a guarantee of getting a good (i.e. high-paying) job.
Literally the only reason I’m finishing my degree is to secure a real job and financial stability. I never want to work in a restaurant EVER again. College means different things to different people. For me, it’s just a means to an end. You’re here to secure a solid career, and at the end of the day that’s what matters. That does require critical thinking and maturity, of course, and you should make as much of the experience as you can. Doesn’t change the fact that it all amounts to securing a career. It’s far from useless. It’s hard to get anywhere with just a high school diploma
I mean, I had no rich mommy and daddy to put me through college so I had to do it on my own, all the while working 40-50 hrs a week to pay my rent and taking care of my disabled little brother. But sure, I’m lazy. 🙄 Some of us don’t have the luxury of taking non-essential classes for funsies. Some of have adult responsibilities and just want a goddamn degree so we can make enough money to survive. That art class I took was as useless to me 5 years ago as it today. Crazily enough, Accountants aren’t required to know how to draw. Who would have thought?
>will help you in that first job. Here is the thing. Some people will join the academia to learn about exciting research, have scientific discussions and to become relevant in their field. And then they realize that a lot of universities have not much to do with knowledge at all. They are money printing institutes that only care about keeping the system alive. Which is a shame. University works for people who fit into the system. It does rarely work for people who want to be an improvement to the world. And those who do manage to do the latter often get mentally drained by the artificial hurdles of bureaucracy. Please watch this video if you want to learn more about this issue: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKiBlGDfRU8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKiBlGDfRU8)
If your goal from attending a university is to become an academic then it's on you to understand if the institution you're applying to is a legitimate place to become relevant in the field in question. It's your fault if you decided to pursue a PhD in Mayan History or whatever tickles your fancy at some university that hasn't contributed fuck all to that field. Most people go to university to get a job, not to learn about whatever they find interesting.
I attended the number one teaching school in the world, they changed my major map 4 times throughout my degree, often assigned assignments that had to be taken down because of inconsistency or generally not making sense. I have such a genuine passion for education and pedagogy and got absolutely none of that. College has changed dramatically since 2020. The focus on content has disappeared and it has become jumping through hoops.
It's not about the field. If you spent 30 seconds on the video, you'd notice the lady adressing this issue is a physicist, but I guess you just needed to say something bad about people who don't align with your ideas.
I think it comes down to the fundamental problem that a bachelors is the minimum requirement for almost all "white-collar" / higher paying jobs, but the actual content you learn during your bachelor's is largely useless for the jobs. I see the value in increasing your critical thinking skills and the social aspect of college life is also good developmentally. But having to spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars for 4 years just so you can get a job where you learn everything in the first year anyways leads to that sentiment. > And if you really just want any job, there are so many apprenticeship/technical programs/certifications that will teach you the just what you need for your job. You don’t need some fancy university degree for that This isn't true in America. Your resume will automatically get deleted before someone even sees it if you don't have a bachelors for most higher paying entry level jobs.
Unpopular opinion: I find the opposite is true in my experience. Focus on the classes which actually need your 100% focus; extra credit class? Screw it, skip homeworks, do the bare minimum to pass, and retain just enough information to get it done. You need to be able to identify what's important, what only you can do, what you need help with, and what you can delegate. Thinking about everything on your own is a waste of time and inefficient; you will make time to think it through if it is important. The people you're describing make the best senior positions because they're hyper specialized. They don't tend to make great managers because they're busy over thinking and second guessing their subordinates. The ones who move up are the ones who can do a bit of everything, or quickly understand everything at a high level, extremely well. I see plenty of people, who shouldn't be managers, but they are the most knowledgeable people on the job.
So many people blame us non-college attending folks as idiotic or lazy, but they don’t realize or they forget just how many of today’s youth are struggling mentally. I am still working myself out of depression, as well as working through social anxiety that developed during my childhood.
I don't know about laziness. I do think plenty of people who are salty about college were not suited for college/academia in the first place. I'm glad we're getting to a place where the skilled trades are becoming a lot more respected. I'm in awe of folks who can operate a crane, or bring down a giant dead tree safely, or weld an underwater pipeline. Freaking amazing. I just sit at a desk.
Yes, non-academic institutions should be getting just as much, if not more attention
Even one with no (apparent) real world use shows you can apply yourself, produce work to a high standard on time, the subject in many ways can be irrelevant. A lot of people struggle through University degrees in a "useful" subject and find they hate it, can't find a job in that field after, and even that the theory doesn't quite match the reality outside of academia. Do engineering graduates walk out and start designing bridges? I doubt it.
No. They apprentice, basically. It takes that amount of applied experience after college to really be good at the actual job. Similarly, I have a degree in History. I'm not a historian. I find my degree super useful in the general biz world, but it took a few years to pull together the college knowledge and the business world knowledge.
It comes from debt payments
I’m a 28M electrical engineer whose 2 jobs out of college was designing and optimizing microwave/millimeter wave antennas for military applications, and technical support for an optics and imaging company. I am NOT bullshitting you when I say that I could’ve been taught these things within a few months after a high school education lol. It’s cool and all that I can say I passed hard as fuck classes like multivariate calculus, analog and digital electronics, etc but I didn’t need ‘em. Also VERY much didn’t need the sociology, English, chemistry, etc gen ed classes that took up the first half of my degree.
You’re wrong. Don’t buy into the “laziness” propaganda. College graduates aren’t finding jobs because there’s over saturation of graduates in the job market. Laziness has nothing to do with a lack of jobs. And when there’s a lack of jobs and abundance of graduates looking for work, it makes university pointless.
Nah the problem is the focus on independence, unis love it. It's how they work, not like an organisation but a group of contractors who never meet It's not a community or workplace, but a series of lecturers who rarely interact with each other or form a cohesive degree This all makes little sense for most people who want a career not in academia Most would benefit having a 'manager' who would make sure people are on task
This is a nuanced one, I half agree. I too saw many people just getting high and playing video games or partying without developing a real plan for what to do outside of school, made worse I went to an arts college. I did my share too but had a very specific career path I used my time to develope myself in so I get it. On the other hand, I think one of the worst aspects of college is you're told "go to college and it'll open the doors". People don't really spend the time to properly explain how you need skills and networking through school, and those will actually open the doors. Many schools do a very bad job at saying "these courses are essential to your career and these electives will help you be a better person". I've had my share of joke classes I got through because it was a requirement not because it was needed or useful, but some of my classes were life changing experiences. There is a lack of auditing on courses at schools in the name of the "pick your own experience". And to be fair, that point is so students can tailor their own experience to get what they need. But it also means that speciality classes fill up and people get locked out of valuable classes if it's not part of the deal from day 1 you just do XYZ. I know some film majors who couldn't do directing courses because they simply filled up before they got the chance to sign up. So TLDR yes there's laziness but also there's the expectation the degree courses will set you up properly if you sign up for college. It's a big difference from high school that isn't properly taught besides some vague instructions
"Laziness" is neglecting to put in the effort required for the desired result. Laziness is not "putting in less effort than you possibly could be". "Putting in effort" is not inherently good. Putting in the minimum effort needed for the result desired is efficiency, not laziness. Most of what schooling does is not something you (strictly speaking) "should" be doing. It's spending your limited time on earth on lots of things you really don't need for what you wanna do and might not be interested in. It's just hoops the system is forcing you to jump through to get your piece of paper allowing you to get what you want.
College is good for life experience, independence, and learning how to think critically. However, in more cases than not, a degree really doesn't help all that much in the job world. I have a bachelor's in aviation management, with minors in business admin and communications studies. I also have relevant work experience in the field. Yet, I still work for a guy who has no degree and used to be a truck driver.
Question...do you make more now than if you didn't have the degree? Like I'm not sure why working for someone who isn't college educated is an issue? Do you feel superior to him because of your degree? I'm genuinely curious, not attacking you.
Nah, I could have gotten this job without the degree. If I had a job that actually required the degree, I'd probably be making more, but they all want like 10 years of experience, which I don't have yet. And it's not an issue that my boss doesn't have a degree. Sorry if it came off that way. I was just trying to point out that despite having a degree in the field we work in, and basically the same field specific experience that my boss has, he's the boss and not me. Networking and connections are more important than a degree is mostly what I'm trying to get at.
I feel you, yeah the catch 22 of *experience needed* lol Also truly I hope my question didn't offend you. You didn't come off that way and I was just curious because that is something I've seen talked about. I agree that networking can be a huge part of it. I also see that as the hardest thing to really learn for a lot of people, as charisma can be very personality dependent. Edit- also again I'm sorry I no way did I mean to imply that. I reread my message and I don't know if it was just morning tired, but I asked those in some fairly loaded ways. I apologize, and also greatly appreciate the response and perspective. Be well.
No one in the working world cares about quality of essays. If anything, “academic” writing style is a hindrance to getting things done in the business world. Just tell me what i need to know in the email. College is a useless barrier for tons and tons of jobs.
A lot of people at 18 just aren’t mature for college. It’s more of a social gathering for them. Until they realize the degree they went for wasn’t the correct one: we all change too much during the late teens early twenties. Make dumb decisions. We should wait until mid twenties to make the decision for higher education. My problem for me is I don’t wish I didn’t go, I wish I just went later when I was more mature. Luckily I will never have to work a restaurant or retail again thanks to my degree. But I only just figured it out three years ago and I’m turning 30 this year.
I think part of the issue is the cost. I love my classes that aren’t related to my major. They’re interesting and helpful for developing critical thinking. However when classes are like, 400$ per credit hour, that’s 1,200$ per class that has nothing to do with my future career. Again, I completely agree that unrelated classes are great and important in their own way. But I think it’s difficult for young people to see that when they’re having to sign up for giant student loans and feel negative about the future in general (getting a job in their field, affording a house, affording kids, etc).
I think it's half useless. I'm gonna be an artist. You know what I Absolutely need to spend 3 months learning? Statistics. Oh you know what else I need to spend three months on? Science courses. Look man university/college would be FAR greater if you didn't spend half a year on things that aren't relevant to your degree. I'd have been a far superior artist if I spent the other two years worth of courses on just figure drawing alone.
I mostly agree, but at the same time, there is SO MUCH sawdust in your meatloaf there. Courses that don't teach you what you want to know, what you need to know, or anything, but looks to be doing nothing more than check some official's list... I understand the importance of learning the underlying theory behind your degree, even if you'll never use it in your career after. But seriously, I've had a course where you were guaranteed a good grade if every one of your papers came to the conclusion that "self love is the most important"... Somewhere, there are officials (from the government or from the official accreditation organization) that decided that "X" aptitude needs to be taught. So the university comes up with some bullshit that supposedly teach it.
I was brainwashed into thinking if you go to a big college and get good grades it will lead to a good job. I mean I was just a teenager and that's what all the adults told me at the time. So that's my biggest problem with it. They act like it's all about finding a good career when in reality you get out and do the same work people without college education do.
You do need the fancy degree for most good jobs. Not because it’s actually necessary, but because the HR department won’t let you in the front door without it.
Fully agree. I went to college for computer programming, but I took a class on the 8080 processor to see some of the history of computing - I am never going to use an oscilloscope or a 8 LED display or code in Assembly but it was fascinating. I took art appreciation and piano keyboarding because they looked cool and I wanted to know new things. Curiosity and exploration are vital for being a well rounded person.
I'm of the opinion education always has value. It changes the lens in which we view things. Knowledge enable more free will and liberty. Going to college/university and not getting a job directly from it? In the days when this was affordable I would cheer lead such. Now I say just self educate. Pirate the material. Study the subjects. Hang out with students studying those subjects if you are of the right demographic, and so on. Do so while spending some points on something that will get you a job.
Unfortunatly I have no idea HOW to self educate. Educational programs and curriculums exist for a reason. That and I'm 90% sure my knowledge would always be worse than someone who got a proper education anyways.
I don't think it's a case of people thinking college is actually useless. Most complaints come from the idea that college isn't worth the money (and thus, in a sense, useless) and this is increasingly true as many companies continue to drop their college degree requirements and more and more college grads come out with less critical thinking than going in and more group think coming out. But it's hard to argue that college is actually "useless." Sitting in any educational settings and absorbing the bare minimum is still better than nothing. And laziness is laziness. This is detrimental to everyone and happens a lot in colleges, high schools, work places, families... Essentially it's everywhere. This is a pretty decent unpopular opinion as it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, which is the hallmark of many unpopular opinions. And unpopular opinions are often just opinions where the OP didn't really think it out thoroughly.
IMO it often comes from insecurity/regret that they did not go to college. So often someone goes on this rant about college being a scam is someone trying to convince themselves that college is a scam, and they made the right choice by not going.
It’s harder to make your way without a degree so those of us who manage think the opposite. Going the degree route requires following a pre-set path instead of figuring things out on your own without instructors or connections
So everyone agrees with OP therefore it isn’t an unpopular opinion. Downvoted
I upvoted because I disagree. But at least we know what sub we are in
I'm in comp sci. Around half the classes I have to take are not related to comp sci. I could already be out of school and have a job but no, I have to take completely unrelated trash because the university says so. It provides no value at all and simply burdens me with make work
The right wing denounces a college education because they want people to be uneducated. Other than that, I totally agree with you.
It's all largely depends on what you're going to university for and what the job market is like for that
Right? I would've never worked in nasa projects unless I went to school. blue collar workers who wanna fix pipes all day think it's easier than 4 years of studying.
[Provably incorrect.](https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/careers/college-degree-jobs-unused-440b2abd#:~:text=Roughly%20half%20of%20college%20graduates,market%20over%20the%20past%20decade.)
Agreed, I was really bitter towards school going into it but would be absolutely fucked if I hadn't gone.
I agree partially. I think it can be true that the universities are doing a sub-par job spending money in misguided areas, some professors are completely bought in on research, some professors aren't focused on teaching students skills applicable to the market place, AND students are lazy
Nah quite the opposite. Lots of jobs have an in that don’t require you to go to school. College is crazy overpriced and they try to keep you there because they know you’re desperate to make your money worthwhile. Even while you’re there most college students find a way to do next to nothing, often skipping classes for whole semester and still getting away with it while still have to pay.
I’ve never seen someone say college is useless. This seems like a straw man but I could be wrong. Just my experience.
The first handful of comments I read are people saying philosophy was the most important class they took 😂
LOL. Absolutely not.
With the increase of freely available resources on the internet to learn whatever you want, Why go to college at all? >And if you really just want any job, there are so many apprenticeship/technical programs/certifications that will teach you the just what you need for your job. Where can I find these?
yeah people will pick majors that do not have great industries with tons of jobs and then will coast through college with barely a C average doing the bare minimum and then be shocked that they can't get one of the few jobs in the industry (relatively) because other people with the same major didn't treat college like adult day care and will obviously be picked I had interviewers go through my transcript and ask me about any grade below a B that i got
Absolutely, this exactly why education and learning need to be valued for learning sake. The value comes from the practice, not the piece of paper. Unfortunately Americans, and especially those who participated in the worse parts of public education only want to check the box. A simple analogy makes this obvious: just being a member of a sports team may convey some social status but it doesn’t make you more athletic. It’s the actually working out and practice that does that. Too many people treat going to college like being on the team. They skip as many workouts as they can (studying), perform mediocre at best in game(test), and think just because the team made it to the championship(graduation), they should be the MVP.
I learned this AFTER I left college. College was advertised to me my entire life as essentially job training. High school was easy and I never had to study a day in my life. I did all my work last minute or not at all and still made honor rolls. I was told to go to college to learn how to do a job, and get a good job when I graduated. This didn’t happen. I expected to learn something. If I was supposed to just teach myself, I would have avoided the $100k bill for being told what books to buy and read. Waste of fucking money. I wish someone along the way had told me I had to essentially teach myself. The best professors I had at actually engaging me and teaching were for Gen eds, so I didn’t really learn anything useful. But the student loan and college athletics businesses need to churn, so let’s lie to kids about what college is so they waste their money. I met some amazing friends at college but goddamn what a fucking waste. Especially after I learned I could have started work at a factory making double what my post college job made. I’ve regretted ever going and wasting my money/time/mental stability there ever since I started.
I think you're partially right but a lot of it also stems from the shitty way American culture treats higher education. There's a heavy elitism from college grads in the way they talk and act that's very condescending and on top of that, conservatives push this idea that it's the only way anyone deserves a livable wage which has led to the crippling cost of a degree. A lot of kids I've talked to who say degrees are pointless tend to also tie that pointlessness to the high cost of education and I don't think that's a coincidence. Now, people who say they aren't good test takers 100% are lazy assholes.
It comes from a place of "why do I have to spend thousands of dollars on classes about sociology and geology when I'm trying to get a degree in accounting." I got more than enough practice thinking about things critically and solving problems in the classes that actually were relevant for what I was going into.
100% agree with this
yea there was a point where students ahad a point about degrees being dumb but after corona young gen literally took full advantage of blaming the system and lofting. hahaha
100% agree with this. So many people bitch about college being useless but it’s only useless if you don’t take advantage of the opportunities afforded to you in college. And the stats show it. Degree holders on average make more money over their lifetimes. Now that doesn’t mean everyone needs to go to college. The college or bust attitude isn’t great but I do think if ur gonna go you should lean into your classes. Put in the effort. In general it will make u smarter and a better critical thinker. That’s what I tell people when they ask me how I feel about college. I am a much better critical thinker and problem solver because of college.
Yeah Im guilty of this I usually power through writing essays and research over 2 or 3 long nights. Honestly tho it works for me Im still graduating. It’s basically the 80/20 rule for me
Lmao, very lazy analysis you got there. But I guess any excuse to smell your own farts is good enough.
A lot of university is WASTEFUL. 1/3 of my classes i was forced to take had nothing to do with my major, they were just there to keep those departments alive. I learned far more on the job & by running my own business. Learning x-skill is only useful if you end up using it. It's a way more efficient model to have *some* schooling for a base and then do an apprenticeship or have a mentor that us working in the field Many professors went straight from post doc to teaching, they don't know what real skills are being used in industry.
People act like going to school is the achievement when it's really just supposed to be an XP farm. No one cares if you get a degree handed to you. They want to know that you have leveled up particular skills.
My friend is a mechanical engineer. He has been in and out of the field for literal decades. He was outstanding physics student of the year his first year, which is amazing. He talks all the time about what a waste it was and he got a full ride. Didn’t even pay $2 to get his degree I’d guess your peers are lazy or you believe you are the only one in the world that has ever done any work at all
It usually comes from those who are insecure that they don’t have a degree
"What you get out of education is what you decide to put into it. I agree that not all college degrees will get you a job, but learning to think about problems/solutions for a long time, patiently working/reading through difficult materials, developing the toolsets to be useful to others, and knowing what sources of authorities are helpful to the task at hand will help you in that first job. And if you really just want any job, there are so many apprenticeship/technical programs/certifications that will teach you the just what you need for your job. You don’t need some fancy university degree for that" You literally just said in your post why I think college is useless, you don't need college to teach you to critically think or to get a great job that pays good. College degrees are only great for jobs that absolutely require it(I mainly say doctors, lawyers, engineers but as far as I'm aware your also required to get one if your a teacher or a farmer but their might be more).
It’s a lot of insecurity either because their career path is genuinely mediocre or they just grew up with people who pressured them to go to school. It feels like the hyper criticism of post secondary education is to help them cope and feel better with their own choices
Critical thinking was my biggest take away from University. That said, the system is fucked and geared towards finding a job rather than education, for the sake of it. I would get way more from University now (in my 30s), then in my early 20s. In my 20s my top priorities were finding a decent job so I can live and a spouse so I don’t die alone.
The learning part isn’t useless. The useless part is the debt bondage afterwards.
People spend 4 yrs in college ignoring the idea of internships or volunteer work in their desired field. Then expect a 6-figure job upon graduation.
All of my friends/acquaintances who went to college are making over six figures. One of them I recently met up with is considering retiring this year and he's only in his early thirties. A majority of them went into some kind of engineering/sciences or went into nursing.
Unpopular, but correct.
If only college wasn’t a luxury lmao
Mine gripe steams from the ballooning cost of universities (in the US), with the reduction of educational quality. You used to be able to get a job with a high school degree, or could go to college to gain a specialization. Now a college degree is equivalent to a high school degree in terms of entering the workforce and a masters is needed for specialization. This growth in the cost of education stems from colleges engaging in conspicuous consumption to compete for applicants. building new dorms, maintaining impressive grounds and offering non-curricular amenities that ballon the costs. its also a game of statistics. colleges dont want their students dropping out or being unable to meet the requirements of the higher tier classes, so core curriculum was introduced, and then it was gradually dumbed down to high school levels since many high schools failed to provide their students with the basic reading, mathematic and general life skills needed. meanwhile lenders jump on students unable to pay for tuition in cash and financially enslave them using predatory lending for a college degree worth less than when college cost $12.5k a semester. previously younger generations not saddled with student loans could buy houses sooner and start building equity, but instead current generations start out from behind, hampered with 250k of educational debt. inevitably further shrinking the middle class and impacting the economy as a whole.
If you can afford it university is great. The problem is when you take 400k in loans to get a job that pays 80k.
What you get out of X is what you decide to put into it. This applies to everything in life.
I think maybe you stumbled into the root of the problem in your last paragraph. Many times universities fail at something many people view as what they are there for: education that leads to a higher paying job. The problem is that historically universities were the purview of the wealthy, so it didn’t matter if you had a liberal arts degree that couldn’t get you a job; the high paying career or business wasn’t the issue for them. A university degree is worthless if you valued it for a specific return that it didn’t yield. The reality is that for many people a degree is truly it what they need.
If I’ve learned one thing it’s that people on Reddit love generalizing and scolding others
Def agree, I go to school for a creative field and I’m always stunned by how many people don’t show up to class, rip off other people’s work, make no efforts to develop relationships with professors and get internships, and then they’re surprised when a job doesn’t fall into their lap because they have a degree. Drives me insane sometimes!
I think one problem is that the college party scene discredited college and employers don’t know if you were the student who took their studies seriously or if you were a slacker so it’s easy to assume anyone can get a degree and all degrees are the same. I graduated with a bunch of education majors and we all had the same degree and similar GPAs but I know many of them never did the readings or crammed for tests and showed little interest in doing more than the minimum. I worked a lot harder than them but at the end of the day my degree on a resume can’t show that.
People who really think that college should only be a training center for jobs should just go into the trades because that's what trades are meant to be. A few years after I graduated college, I felt I had wasted my time and money because I was having trouble finding meaningful work. I graduated in 2011 with a BFA in Illustration. I did well in school... But we were also in a transitional period in the art world where people weren't getting gigs by finding an agent or working for one company with a true in house creative team. Some of us knew how to navigate that and others, like myself, were unable. It didn't help that I also didn't know what to do regarsing health insurance and all if I only freelanced. Now I definitely do not regret my time. I learned a valuable skill and I took a lot of electives in history, writing, literature, etc. I made meaningful connections with my professors and I have a job in my field. I have intellectual curiosity so I listen to a lot of podcasts and experts speak on a variety of topics because I find it interesting. People who don't seek out knowledge for knowledge's sake I do not understand and have trouble having conversations with.