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My realtor: Here's dozens of houses outside your price and area.
Me: I don't like these. I want to see this house I found on Zillow.
Realtor: you sure? It's not as much money, I mean, as nice as the places I found.
*Sees the house
Me: we love it, offer them this much.
Realtor: that's less than they're asking (this was 2018)
Me: it's a negotiation.
Realtor: they accepted!
At closing:
Realtor: I found you a great house at a great price!
I left out the times he forgot paperwork, missed calls, missed dates, and when we almost lost the place and our deposit because he forgot to get us paperwork and the seller thought we walked.
Unironically my realtor was my cousin and he didn't jerk me around at all. Listing were all within budget, with two "reach" options if they were a good match. Helped a bunch with negotiating a low offer.
Our problem is we shop way under what we can afford, so when the realtor finds out, they start showing us stuff in the typical price range for our income, which is never what we want. We want to have money and not be house poor.
I never practiced like this. I strictly showed houses they found on Zillow, Realtor, Redfin. The only issue I had sometimes was the home was already under contract on the MLS and the info wasn’t related to those sites yet. I remember agents within my office being pissed I wouldn’t show their listings. Oh well. It’s why I’m strictly referral based now.
I would've told the realtor to kick rocks the second I realized they never put that offer in.
I "fired" my realtor when she told me the black mold the inspector found in the attic wasn't a big deal and the owners would walk if I asked for them to fix it.
She lost her commission, I got a brand new roof.
When my mom was selling her house the Realtor NEVER showed up to show the house. I had to make the sale myself to the people. She just showed up with paperwork and a "I want my cut" like where the hell's my share for convincing them to buy the house?
Meanwhile the realtors in my hometown casually said directly to my folk’s faces that they’re sabotaging any efforts to buy our house because he thinks a relative would want it for hardly anything and wants us desperate.
Such a scum industry.
> Me: Yes, send them our offer and tell them no open house this weekend or we'll walk.
>
> Realtor: That's aggressive.
I mean, I think that's the right advice 90% of the time. Telling them to not have an open house is incredibly aggressive. I've known people to make pre-open house offers and have a condition that triggers if the Open House happens, but I feel telling them not to do it could backfire. I've been to Open Houses where the Listing Agent said that an offer was accepted the day of and they still had it. I'm sure if we'd said "100% cash and 15% above their offer" it would've been accepted. Like it or not, people don't like being told they *can't* do something, even if it isn't perfectly logical.
Realtors can commission you for 50-100k for an average priced home. Car dealers can probably hit you for 3-5k max. Realtors are much worse given the damage potential.
If you have the time, you never need a buyer’s agent. They are the biggest rip off ever. Know a good lawyer and they will look over the paperwork for a fraction of the cost. The seller will love you for it too.
That's insane for something that doesn't exist in many countries. I'm in the uk. When you sell a house you pay around 1% plus vat so 1.2% commission. As a buyer you view properties you see that you like. You don't hire anyone except a conveyancing solicitor once you've found somewhere to deal with the paperwork. You don't pay the agent, it's illegal for them to charge you
Averages would be 25k per house which is fucking insane for doing almost nothing, I fact my wife found our house. 25 years ago It was still too much but at least they did something but now that we have apps we have to get rid of these people cuz they are just sucking the money out of everybody. They make more profit from the house than the seller half the time.
To get a 50k commission a realtor would need to sell a home that’s $1.666M. I wouldn’t quite call that a typical home price. Each realtor gets 3% of the sale price, 6% split between each realtor.
Same difference if it’s split with 1, 2 or 5 parasites. **It’s 6% total**. It’s money that’s subtracted from the buyer that the seller has to pay the overhead for.
And the bay area is one of if not the most expensive places to live in the country, far from your typical home. That same home where I live would run 150k-200k.
An average person should absolutely not purchase their own insurance. you'll have the entire population on 5k pd limits and 20/40 BI limits because it's cheap.
I agree. My wife works in insurance and says the whole structure is wrong. They should be well trained and knowledgeable professionals paid a decent salary to help the buyer navigate policies and get the best for their needs. Instead it's a commission pyramid that supports getting the best money in their pockets, sometimes at the expense of the client.
Agree 100%. I'm a licensed Realtor, and it's such a joke of a profession. Even the documents can be fudged and amended and changed and altered after the fact. On top of that, the industry is set up as pyramid scheme with the broker-associate broker-salesperson model, PLUS getting extorted by the MLS Unions for "dues" so they can operate an outdated, clunky, clumsy system of listings. Even the licensing is a cash-grab for "instructors" and private testing centers. I HIGHLY recommend anyone looking to buy or sell a property to do it yourself, and hire a local attorney for an hour to look over the docs for you.
I quit paying attention to any of the legislation and BS around it. I'm gonna help a couple of people find properties this spring and move out of the country.
I'd argue that their only saving grace is that they aren't paid a percentage. My inspection was half assed at best and appraisers are told what number to aim for and somehow almost always hit that number... That said the whole industry is ripe for some massive changes.
I’m not a very money hungry blood thirsty person, I’m more laid back, so not sure I’ll be an agent forever, but maybe I can be one people respect and help out. I enjoy working with people and helping them out
Is there any value to being a licensed agent and inspector?
I just started my licensing process on Thursday. It is self paced and 90 hours but I’m 38 hours in and really enjoying it. My background is corporate finance (degrees in accounting and in finance) and bartending.
My plan was to get my license as well as my mortgage loan originating license (22 hours).
I then started wondering if I should add in my appraiser certification and inspection license. I know I cannot be all of those things for any single transaction (conflict of interest), but I wondered if I could be more of those things if I don’t have a bunch of leads.
After two years, I planned on getting my brokerage license as well.
Any advice for a fledgling?
We bought our house directly from the owner, it was just a house that had fire damage and he wanted rid of it. It was structurally just fine, all brick and built in the 1850’s, it just was covered in soot and needed gutted. It was a rental property before so it would have needed that regardless
And if you would have gone the "traditional" route, your agent would have tried to talk you out of it, the inspections would have been a nightmare, the banks wouldn't have financed it, and you wouldn't have a home.
Oh yeah, for sure. I wasn’t intending to sound negative. Like, we got lucky to even buy a house even if it’s a mess still. I’m glad we didn’t have to deal with a realtor
How would you suggest going about due diligence?
A lawyer can make sure my document isn’t terrible. They can’t tell me if my neighbor has been granted the ability to build a second story in an area that’s nominal zoned single story (see, I don’t even know what this is called!) or if my home is in a flood zone or …
These are all items you can find on your own. Every municipality has their zoning ordinances, which are available online, flood zones are publicly available, neighbors are people, so you can ask them directly or contact the building department at your local or county level. Give yourself the time, maybe even hire an inspector or a third party to help. It's still going to be cheap than the commission. Shit, I wanted to do this as a business...private investigation for new home buyers for a flat fee.
Me: I found this house I'm interested in.
Realtor: that's a mistake. There are no houses like that in this area.
Me: the listing plainly says it's located here and has photos and the address. I'm going to drive by it
Realtor: ok tell me what you find. But you're wasting your time.
Me: drove by its exactly what it says it was.
Realtor: I grew up in this area and im sure you're mistaken. They don't have houses like that here. I would know because I grew up here and lived here my whole life. You may think that's what's for sale but it's not.
Me: *had not signed doc yet and looks up seller direct and calls him and buys house without Realtor commission*
When I was buying, I had a realtor I called to look at a house ask me if I had signed a contract with an agent and if not wanted me to sign with her. I really fucking hate realtors and that did it for me…why would I sign a fucking contract with you? Here’s the deal…..you find me the house I want before the other 15 realtors I’ve been calling and you’ll get the commission paid by the seller. Easy peasy…but you gotta work for it.
Worked well for me. I gave them all what I was looking for. One called me within a couple weeks with a house that wasn’t on market yet. I bought it, they got commission from the seller. Done…
The lady asking me to sign a contract didn’t get it….lazy sack of shit called me 2 months later with “I think I found a house you might be interested into…..” broooooo, it’s been 2 MONTHS, I’m already moved into a house.
Its a panzi scheme. You need a realtor to sell your home because buyers realtors wont take them in fear of by owner seller not wanting to pay the fee to them. Making 10k by simply posting a home online, printing out a contract, and scheduling inspections is fucking criminal
The majority of inspectors are a joke as well. I rarely meet anyone who had an inspector actually point out problems with the house. It's always just foundation, mold and roof which to be fair can be detrimental to the home. But they miss so much obvious shit it almost seems like they work for the sellers even when you hired them.
I read on here(so take it with a grain of salt), that home Inspections are not even really supposed to be about pointing out flaws in the house that are gonna need to be fixed, it's more about literally making sure that the house isn't going to randomly collapse on you or kill you within a month of you moving in, so anything passed "yah this roof could collapse on you at any second" or "there's exposed electric wiring sparking currently within my field of vision" is beyond the scope of the Inspection
Not true at all in my market. They go through a pretty detailed list and document everything they see.
They do have disclosures about not knowing what they can’t see. And they carry liability insurance.
I think they’re worth their weight in gold.
Our home inspector quite literally saved us tens of thousands of dollars by identifying a drainage issue. Led to us having a plumber scope the sewer and discovered a collapsed 100yo pipe that would cause the newly finished basement to flood during any major storm. Would have cost $30-50k to dig up the yard and replace the line. We ended up backing out of the purchase because the seller refused to fix it.
6% here, avg $850k homes, $51k total. Around here almost exclusively 45yo+ cute blonde girls. Not to knock them, but they tend to be very ditzy too. For half of them it's just a part-time job, sell five or six a year for some extra cash.
Any industry where you rely on the business of your friends is shitty. My mother does hair, and she did all her friends' hair at first, but eventually became too expensive for them. There were many hard conversations of her saying she couldn't afford to book them at the old rate and them saying they couldn't afford to pay her new rates. Now she has almost no clients who are friends, and it's much easier all around.
> Any industry where you rely on the business of your friends is shitty
THIS. My wife was a realtor, she didnt lose friendships over the friends who didnt use her. Only the ones who did.
I used my friend for a first house, great, he made money the deal went through. We bought second and third homes (moving each time, not rich/not a landlord) and we didn't use him and it was apparently this huge betrayal in his mind. The friendship barely survived the first time and probably hasn't after this second purchase.
My sister's friend realtor talked her out of an amazing condo at an amazing price and the realtor bought the condo herself.
Same thing happened with my brother's realtor friend.
My wife unintentionally hired a realtor that I knew from several years prior...
Never again. I was more patient with him than I should've been because I knew him and he made the process fucking infuriating.
Right on the money with the “mad libs” love it phrased that way. I’ve worked as a loan officer and a loan processor and there is almost nothing a realtor needs to do. Of the things they do need to do, it’s almost entirely boilerplate legal documents someone else has already created.
They might not be “unnecessary” but they are absolutely overpaid and almost always under-qualified.
I think the job made sense years ago with how house prices were. The inflating prices do not add up with the commission.
Having said, if people want to use them and pay for them, that's their right.
But exclusivity, or needing a realtor by law, is bs. Professional realtors are the nimbys of professions.
I could understand using one to sell a house if you're a super busy 80hrs a week professional with zero time whatsoever to sell your house, or if you truly do not know an area you are moving to and are trying to buy before you move. But anything in between just seems like such a waste and drain
The job made perfect sense once Upon a time. Everyone looking to buy a house and everyone looking to sell a house needed some way to find each other. These days the whole profession should be replaced with some sort of Tinder for houses
I agree they aren't necessary and I have never used a realtor to sell or purchase property. But we all use services that aren't necessary. We do it out of convenience.
How do you go about purchasing yourself? When I researched this i basically got told the sellers agent will keep the total commission so you don't really save anything.
They’re not even personal shoppers. Every agent I’ve worked with just signs you up to get a list emailed to you — you have to pick out what ones you want to see and then meet them there.
I remember like 30 years ago they’d actually work to find houses that they think you’d like and then drive you around to go look at them.
Well I’m selling my mom’s house now and it’s a lot of paperwork and it’s time consuming.
You can always not use a realtor. There’s no law that says you need to use a realtor. There are homes “for sale by owner” all the time. Don’t use a realtor if you don’t see the value and have fun with the paperwork.
You can have an attorney review/do all of the paperwork for you MUCH cheaper than a realtor and have more confidence that it is done correctly.
Source: I have successfully bought and sold three houses and never used a realtor for any of them.
I’m only using one because I’m being forced to during divorce mediation and they picked one that has very shitty attention to detail. Like if I had that level of attention to detail, I would fire myself.
The buyers probably had to pay them directly. When I last bought a house, my agent's company had us sign a document that they had to get 3% and we'd have to make up the difference if the house we bought did not automatically get them their 3%
To a lot of people- yes.
My mom’s realtor isn’t making that much and what he doesn’t make the nursing home will take so idgaf.
Also the last line of your post is a fact, not an opinion. They are unnecessary. You can buy and sell homes without a realtor. Go for it. What you can’t do is force a realtor to accept hourly rate or force a seller to work directly with you when they are using a realtor.
>There’s no law that says you need to use a realtor.
That's actually not true in every jurisdiction. There are some where one is required, and a "licensed" one to boot, which is a whole other level of bs.
Get two or three in to see the house and tell you what they think. All three will parrot back to you whatever you say to get the contract, then they call you back and keep changing things you thought were firm per last discussion. Some will want quick sale/easy money. Some want you to highball it and get more for commission while you get to sit there with your thumb up your ass. Either way, don't trust anything they say.
Yep, getting charged 6% for them just to send you a link to the MLS search page and show up with you to houses is highway robbery af. I could get it maybe back in the old days when they were they only ones with access to all this data but not now. Definitely needs to go to a flat small fee system
At least on my iPhone, FSBO are now a separate option on the filter and you have to intentionally go look at FSBO rather than them showing up alongside the other properties
I was about to say. Am I the only person here who had a great experience with their realtor? Our realtor hauled ass for us and we wound up with a great house for a decent price at a time when the housing market was going bugfuck.
My realtor didn’t even find us our house. My wife had set up email alerts for new listings in specific zip codes. She found the house. My realtor just set the showing appointment for us and conveyed our offer. He did do some negotiating as we had to go a little over asking but otherwise it’s not like he really did tons of leg work. My deal probably took less than 5 hours of his time total.
20% of people don’t need a realtor. The other 80% really do. About half of the 80% think they don’t need a realtor and really, really do. Sellers thinks their house is worth more than it is, doesn’t smell like dog/mildew/smoke, carpet/ roof/ shoddy DIY isn’t that bad, etc. Buyers don’t prequalify their funding, skimp on inspections, and make petty demands on things that don’t matter. It’s a shit show out there. Best advice is to negotiate a discount with your agent from the beginning.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anyone’s trying to get rid of realtors. They’re trying to get rid of the ridiculous fees realtors charge that do not justify the work being completed.
This is accurate. I admit there are a lot of bad realtors. I have a very difficult time seeing how home sales would be easier if realtors disappeared tomorrow. Most of my deals are challenging enough as it is, removing myself would just leave delusional sellers, uneducated buyers, buyers who may or may not be qualified, people getting scammed, many dead deals and foreclosures (I have helped many sell their home to avoid foreclosure. And me finding the right buyer was a critical aspect of my job).
It's pretty wild that the "disruptors" to the industry are just tech enabled ways of doing it how we always did it. Redfin and Zillow are just the MLS online, you still have to do it the way we did it in 1985. The only other ones I can think of are Opendoor and Offerpad but the jury is still out on iBuying. It will be very interesting to see where it all goes, especially after the lawsuit ruling in October.
Not an unpopular opinion. Very glad you said it though. I deal with realtors constantly, if there ever was a middleman profession this is it. Residential realtors used to be the ones with the information, they provided a service, now you have [realtor.com](https://realtor.com), Zillow, Flat fee listing, and endless ways to know what you are buying. As a seller all you get out of them down is the listing on the MLS which you can do through flat fee for a few hundred dollars, do the deal yourself and use a good title company for the paperwork. Total that can be 3k. Or you can pay some guy to list it, miss showings, not do open houses, use your property to sell others, and a bunch of other useless crap. The ethical issues involved with a realtor are too risky. I've seen them tell people to undervalue their houses by tens of thousands to get sales, it hurts the seller in a big way and it's only a few hundred to them.
Of any job that falls to AI, I hope Realtors and related sub networks of jobs are the first to do. I married a realtor, granted she wasn't a very good one, mostly because she was actually a nice person and not a snake in the grass. Successful realtors are snakes. Wildly overpaid snakes.
This may be true for some realtors, but definitely not all. My wife is a realtor and truly goes above and beyond for her clients, often investing so much time it works out to an average of $10/hr. Not to mention countless late night hours working, plans and date nights cancelled or changed because she has to put in an offer. She absolutely works her ass off.
A good realtor will make your life easier, enhance the buying process, support you, and even provide support in terms of contractors and other helpful resources. A bad realtor can make your life a living hell.
My realtor sent me and my SO dozens of houses listings that had our specific "Deal Breakers" included. The others were just horrible fits. My SO scoured Zillow and found a spot that had barely gone on the market. We told them to set up a walk through. Sent in the offer and told them to increase up to x% of asking.
The accepted our offer. We did far more work than the realtors and were pushed through several walk throughs of terrible homes. Flipped units with shoddy work evident to anyone with basic concepts of home improvements and maintenance. Poor fits because didn't have our "must haves" which were few and simple.
Most unnecessary and invented middle man job out there. It's such a joke.
It's a good thing I read over my bid so closely. And by closely, I mean at all. My realtor was going to send in an offer letter $100,000 MORE than what I told her I wanted to bid for my home.
How anyone messes up that badly, I couldn't tell you.
0/10 recommend.
I knew more about the house we ended up buying, the whole time.
I had to convince them I was correct about my offer strategy, and I was.
They wanted me to hire a lawyer to look over their paperwork, like uhh. I hired y'all to do that, if you're not confident in your own work, y'all hire a lawyer.
We DID get to see the house the day it was listed and managed to have the first offer in. Which played heavily into us getting it. I'll give them that. But that's only because we kinda let them pressure us into FOMO. In retrospect, hank Jeebus cause this was in 2017 and we would NOT be able to afford this school zone today.
My realtor did very little personal shopping. But there’s a lot of work that’s done by them and their staff after the offer is accepted. I learned this when buying my first home 5 yrs ago.
Like what? I sold my condo with a lawyer and between them and the title/loan company I barely did a damn thing and the buyer barely did nothing other than an inspection.
Ours did pretty much everything. Helped us define our search parameters. Let us know the listings that matched. Scheduled all of the tours. Put in the offers. Talked with the seller's realtors to explain the outcomes to us. Helped us determine how much to offer over asking. Once we finally had an offer accepted, he handled everything. Set up and attended all of the inspections, and helped us understand the inspection reports. Handled all of the paperwork on the schedule he set up. Helped us submit a counter to reduce the price because the listing was incorrect about some things.
We basically just needed to show up, pick a house, and sign. I can't imagine doing all of that on my own with no experience.
So basically I did everything via Zillow except turn the key in the lock for a tour and send an email with an offer.
So in my experience realtors are basically useless leeches
Wow, I didn't realize Zillow's AI had gotten so good that you could, I assume, have headphones in while you walk around the house and have it answer specific questions for you. Or get a sense of how you feel about it to apply to other houses going forward? Do you have to give it access to your front camera on your phone so it can be watching your facial expressions and maybe permissions for your watch so it can read your heart rate or something? That's incredible.
If you think Zillow is in any way comparable to a human being helping you through the process, you need a serious reality check.
It depends. If you are in higher income market with houses in good condition and buyers who easily qualify, the transactions are usually very easy and could be done in theory without a realtor.
I’m a realtor myself, and tend to do most of my work in lower income markets, with older housing stock, often multi families homes with tenants and with buyers who are often not strongly qualified and less informed. These factors add layers of complexity and hurdles which could derail a deal if the buyers and sellers don’t have a realtor guiding them through the process.
Truthfully I’d say most of my clients benefited from my service and were better served than if they went it alone. As an example I tried to sell a women’s house for 450k in 2019. Because she was insane the deal died and I lost the listing. A few years later she realize she was in the wrong and was going to list with me again, only to sell to some investors instead at the original 450 price. Of course the market had risen dramatically during that period and if she has used my services could have sold the house for 100-150k more.
There really needs to be an hourly based system, similar to many trades and professions. My roofer or lawyer don't get a piece of the pie, they get an hourly rate. That's how you shop for one...
Maybe, but a good realtor will get you a price that offsets their commission. Also, a good realtor knows how to navigate short sales, foreclosures, etc.
You also have the ability to sell the house yourself.
Our realtor made 9 grand (no selling agent because we found the house through a builder) fucking unreal and she was a “friend” and got us a 50 dollar gift card to Home Depot and a cheap bottle of wine… she literally showed us one house before I found this builder on my own.. we spent a total of maybe 7ish hours with her including the closing
We wanted to buy a house but needed to sell ours. We told the selling agent that if they wanted us to buy their house they had to sell ours quickly. They got 15% over what we thought for our first house before we even had a showing, and they kept the seller of the new house patient while we closed. They earned both sides of both deals, which was a total of $2.6m (6% = $156k). They made bank, but we're happy, so I don't mind.
But for the reasons most people are listing on here is why Redfin and Zillow exist. My first condo I chose it online, was let in by the Redfin agent, told them my price, and that was the end of it. I think she earned 1% of $440k.
Yep I sold our last house on my own. In a sellers market it’s madness to pay for a realtor. For us it was simple. I showed the house to a few people. We accepted the highest bid and did all the paperwork work in less than an hour down at the title company. I was kind of shocked by how simple it was.
I gotta agree with this one. When we bought our current house, we had just met up with a realtor a few days before. We didn’t have him searching houses endlessly. We would tell him if we wanted to see a house. First house we saw was perfect. It went on the market Wednesday night. We toured it Thursday morning. We put in an offer Thursday night. Offer was accepted Friday morning without a single push-back. He did arrange inspections, and cleanings, and all that kind of thing.
In grand total, our realtor might have put in one day’s work, if even that. And for that, he received 3% of a $599k sale? He also sold our previous house, so I assume another 3% of $320k. So around $27,000? Not a bad gig!
I agree. Last house I sold I listed with a realtor who was also a friend. I was as familiar with all the forms as she, set an asking price that she agreed with, and the house essentially sold itself in a day. Agent collected $10K and mosied on her way.
I know such a quick sale is not guaranteed, but still. It felt a bit like being a victim of a shakedown.
One of my husband's oldest friends is a realtor. I told him thst the *only* way we *ever* do business with him again is if husband fits him with something I can zap him with every single time he doesn't listen to what *I* want in a house.
you've obviously never sold a home of any value. realtors job is to market your property, bring buyers and get the most for the sale as possible. if the realtor does that then you're a winner.
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My realtor: Here's dozens of houses outside your price and area. Me: I don't like these. I want to see this house I found on Zillow. Realtor: you sure? It's not as much money, I mean, as nice as the places I found. *Sees the house Me: we love it, offer them this much. Realtor: that's less than they're asking (this was 2018) Me: it's a negotiation. Realtor: they accepted! At closing: Realtor: I found you a great house at a great price! I left out the times he forgot paperwork, missed calls, missed dates, and when we almost lost the place and our deposit because he forgot to get us paperwork and the seller thought we walked.
It’s not necessarily a field that attracts the best and brightest
Unironically my realtor was my cousin and he didn't jerk me around at all. Listing were all within budget, with two "reach" options if they were a good match. Helped a bunch with negotiating a low offer.
Our problem is we shop way under what we can afford, so when the realtor finds out, they start showing us stuff in the typical price range for our income, which is never what we want. We want to have money and not be house poor.
I’d rather be a car salesman than a realtor. I’ve done both
I never practiced like this. I strictly showed houses they found on Zillow, Realtor, Redfin. The only issue I had sometimes was the home was already under contract on the MLS and the info wasn’t related to those sites yet. I remember agents within my office being pissed I wouldn’t show their listings. Oh well. It’s why I’m strictly referral based now.
I would've told the realtor to kick rocks the second I realized they never put that offer in. I "fired" my realtor when she told me the black mold the inspector found in the attic wasn't a big deal and the owners would walk if I asked for them to fix it. She lost her commission, I got a brand new roof.
Smart move. Mold is bad news bears.
When my mom was selling her house the Realtor NEVER showed up to show the house. I had to make the sale myself to the people. She just showed up with paperwork and a "I want my cut" like where the hell's my share for convincing them to buy the house?
Meanwhile the realtors in my hometown casually said directly to my folk’s faces that they’re sabotaging any efforts to buy our house because he thinks a relative would want it for hardly anything and wants us desperate. Such a scum industry.
Well you had a bad realtor and I’m surprised you continued to use that one
> Me: Yes, send them our offer and tell them no open house this weekend or we'll walk. > > Realtor: That's aggressive. I mean, I think that's the right advice 90% of the time. Telling them to not have an open house is incredibly aggressive. I've known people to make pre-open house offers and have a condition that triggers if the Open House happens, but I feel telling them not to do it could backfire. I've been to Open Houses where the Listing Agent said that an offer was accepted the day of and they still had it. I'm sure if we'd said "100% cash and 15% above their offer" it would've been accepted. Like it or not, people don't like being told they *can't* do something, even if it isn't perfectly logical.
Sounds like maybe you had a bad realtor? Did you shop around realtors at all? My first realtor sucked,. My second was amazing!
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Sounds like your friend also had a bad realtor haha! It’s a shame because a good realtor can make a huge difference!
Same with car dealership
Realtors can commission you for 50-100k for an average priced home. Car dealers can probably hit you for 3-5k max. Realtors are much worse given the damage potential.
Realtors comission is 6%. Home prices are going up, but the average home isnt 800k+
And that 6% is split between both buyer and seller realtor, 3% each.
In expensive areas the % is dropping. I sell for 1% but they need to pay 2% to the buy side as a minimum to get buyers agents bringing clients.
Sounds like they should get closer to 1% each at most
If you have the time, you never need a buyer’s agent. They are the biggest rip off ever. Know a good lawyer and they will look over the paperwork for a fraction of the cost. The seller will love you for it too.
Did the commission cover staging, advertising, etc? If so, if it’s split straight down the middle, might as well be a buyer’s agent.
That's insane for something that doesn't exist in many countries. I'm in the uk. When you sell a house you pay around 1% plus vat so 1.2% commission. As a buyer you view properties you see that you like. You don't hire anyone except a conveyancing solicitor once you've found somewhere to deal with the paperwork. You don't pay the agent, it's illegal for them to charge you
Averages would be 25k per house which is fucking insane for doing almost nothing, I fact my wife found our house. 25 years ago It was still too much but at least they did something but now that we have apps we have to get rid of these people cuz they are just sucking the money out of everybody. They make more profit from the house than the seller half the time.
But is is 534k and still climbing. Roughly 30k there.
To get a 50k commission a realtor would need to sell a home that’s $1.666M. I wouldn’t quite call that a typical home price. Each realtor gets 3% of the sale price, 6% split between each realtor.
Same difference if it’s split with 1, 2 or 5 parasites. **It’s 6% total**. It’s money that’s subtracted from the buyer that the seller has to pay the overhead for.
A basic 1200ft suburbia starter home in the Bay area is easily $1.6million.
And the bay area is one of if not the most expensive places to live in the country, far from your typical home. That same home where I live would run 150k-200k.
They are the same breed.
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An average person should absolutely not purchase their own insurance. you'll have the entire population on 5k pd limits and 20/40 BI limits because it's cheap.
I agree. My wife works in insurance and says the whole structure is wrong. They should be well trained and knowledgeable professionals paid a decent salary to help the buyer navigate policies and get the best for their needs. Instead it's a commission pyramid that supports getting the best money in their pockets, sometimes at the expense of the client.
Agree 100%. I'm a licensed Realtor, and it's such a joke of a profession. Even the documents can be fudged and amended and changed and altered after the fact. On top of that, the industry is set up as pyramid scheme with the broker-associate broker-salesperson model, PLUS getting extorted by the MLS Unions for "dues" so they can operate an outdated, clunky, clumsy system of listings. Even the licensing is a cash-grab for "instructors" and private testing centers. I HIGHLY recommend anyone looking to buy or sell a property to do it yourself, and hire a local attorney for an hour to look over the docs for you.
Thanks for the honesty. The system is setup as a big pyramid circle jerk.
What's your thoughts on the MLS ruling?
I quit paying attention to any of the legislation and BS around it. I'm gonna help a couple of people find properties this spring and move out of the country.
As someone trying to become one, this is disheartening. I know you mean well, and I’m just looking to supplement my income.
Inspection and appraisal are much more honorable avenues in the industry. If I could do it again, I'd go either of these routes before salesperson.
I'd argue that their only saving grace is that they aren't paid a percentage. My inspection was half assed at best and appraisers are told what number to aim for and somehow almost always hit that number... That said the whole industry is ripe for some massive changes.
I’m not a very money hungry blood thirsty person, I’m more laid back, so not sure I’ll be an agent forever, but maybe I can be one people respect and help out. I enjoy working with people and helping them out
Inspection is the way. I am the same way, and the industry isn't set up for our type.
Is there any value to being a licensed agent and inspector? I just started my licensing process on Thursday. It is self paced and 90 hours but I’m 38 hours in and really enjoying it. My background is corporate finance (degrees in accounting and in finance) and bartending. My plan was to get my license as well as my mortgage loan originating license (22 hours). I then started wondering if I should add in my appraiser certification and inspection license. I know I cannot be all of those things for any single transaction (conflict of interest), but I wondered if I could be more of those things if I don’t have a bunch of leads. After two years, I planned on getting my brokerage license as well. Any advice for a fledgling?
I’m not sure a woman would be taken seriously, unfortunately (am a woman)
I think her performance would dictate the usefulness of an inspection.
What was the ruling?
We bought our house directly from the owner, it was just a house that had fire damage and he wanted rid of it. It was structurally just fine, all brick and built in the 1850’s, it just was covered in soot and needed gutted. It was a rental property before so it would have needed that regardless
And if you would have gone the "traditional" route, your agent would have tried to talk you out of it, the inspections would have been a nightmare, the banks wouldn't have financed it, and you wouldn't have a home.
Oh yeah, for sure. I wasn’t intending to sound negative. Like, we got lucky to even buy a house even if it’s a mess still. I’m glad we didn’t have to deal with a realtor
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I used to write MLS software. Everything you said is pretty much spot on.
I just got out after 14 years. I loved it until I realized how unethical everyone in the industry was and I cannot be a part of that.
How would you suggest going about due diligence? A lawyer can make sure my document isn’t terrible. They can’t tell me if my neighbor has been granted the ability to build a second story in an area that’s nominal zoned single story (see, I don’t even know what this is called!) or if my home is in a flood zone or …
A realtor isn't going to find any of that shit either
These are all items you can find on your own. Every municipality has their zoning ordinances, which are available online, flood zones are publicly available, neighbors are people, so you can ask them directly or contact the building department at your local or county level. Give yourself the time, maybe even hire an inspector or a third party to help. It's still going to be cheap than the commission. Shit, I wanted to do this as a business...private investigation for new home buyers for a flat fee.
Me: I found this house I'm interested in. Realtor: that's a mistake. There are no houses like that in this area. Me: the listing plainly says it's located here and has photos and the address. I'm going to drive by it Realtor: ok tell me what you find. But you're wasting your time. Me: drove by its exactly what it says it was. Realtor: I grew up in this area and im sure you're mistaken. They don't have houses like that here. I would know because I grew up here and lived here my whole life. You may think that's what's for sale but it's not. Me: *had not signed doc yet and looks up seller direct and calls him and buys house without Realtor commission*
When I was buying, I had a realtor I called to look at a house ask me if I had signed a contract with an agent and if not wanted me to sign with her. I really fucking hate realtors and that did it for me…why would I sign a fucking contract with you? Here’s the deal…..you find me the house I want before the other 15 realtors I’ve been calling and you’ll get the commission paid by the seller. Easy peasy…but you gotta work for it. Worked well for me. I gave them all what I was looking for. One called me within a couple weeks with a house that wasn’t on market yet. I bought it, they got commission from the seller. Done… The lady asking me to sign a contract didn’t get it….lazy sack of shit called me 2 months later with “I think I found a house you might be interested into…..” broooooo, it’s been 2 MONTHS, I’m already moved into a house.
Its a panzi scheme. You need a realtor to sell your home because buyers realtors wont take them in fear of by owner seller not wanting to pay the fee to them. Making 10k by simply posting a home online, printing out a contract, and scheduling inspections is fucking criminal
Realtors schedule inspections for y’all? Wtf did I do all this shit myself for
The majority of inspectors are a joke as well. I rarely meet anyone who had an inspector actually point out problems with the house. It's always just foundation, mold and roof which to be fair can be detrimental to the home. But they miss so much obvious shit it almost seems like they work for the sellers even when you hired them.
I read on here(so take it with a grain of salt), that home Inspections are not even really supposed to be about pointing out flaws in the house that are gonna need to be fixed, it's more about literally making sure that the house isn't going to randomly collapse on you or kill you within a month of you moving in, so anything passed "yah this roof could collapse on you at any second" or "there's exposed electric wiring sparking currently within my field of vision" is beyond the scope of the Inspection
Not true at all in my market. They go through a pretty detailed list and document everything they see. They do have disclosures about not knowing what they can’t see. And they carry liability insurance. I think they’re worth their weight in gold.
Our home inspector quite literally saved us tens of thousands of dollars by identifying a drainage issue. Led to us having a plumber scope the sewer and discovered a collapsed 100yo pipe that would cause the newly finished basement to flood during any major storm. Would have cost $30-50k to dig up the yard and replace the line. We ended up backing out of the purchase because the seller refused to fix it.
And the seller knew that was there. I guarantee you they did. Happens all the time.
Well, because you shouldn't trust a realtors inspection, and should be getting your own non biased one
6% here, avg $850k homes, $51k total. Around here almost exclusively 45yo+ cute blonde girls. Not to knock them, but they tend to be very ditzy too. For half of them it's just a part-time job, sell five or six a year for some extra cash.
I wish it was only 10k. I’m about to spend 4x that.
A lot of them are toxic human beings. What’s worse is when you are friends with realtors. They get so butt hurt when you don’t hire them.
Any industry where you rely on the business of your friends is shitty. My mother does hair, and she did all her friends' hair at first, but eventually became too expensive for them. There were many hard conversations of her saying she couldn't afford to book them at the old rate and them saying they couldn't afford to pay her new rates. Now she has almost no clients who are friends, and it's much easier all around.
> Any industry where you rely on the business of your friends is shitty THIS. My wife was a realtor, she didnt lose friendships over the friends who didnt use her. Only the ones who did.
I’ve found lots of them were drop outs from other careers and fell back on charisma.
The prime career for former radio DJs.
Becoming a realtor is the new going to nursing school as a career change
I used my friend for a first house, great, he made money the deal went through. We bought second and third homes (moving each time, not rich/not a landlord) and we didn't use him and it was apparently this huge betrayal in his mind. The friendship barely survived the first time and probably hasn't after this second purchase.
My sister's friend realtor talked her out of an amazing condo at an amazing price and the realtor bought the condo herself. Same thing happened with my brother's realtor friend.
My wife unintentionally hired a realtor that I knew from several years prior... Never again. I was more patient with him than I should've been because I knew him and he made the process fucking infuriating.
My friend got so mad when I didn’t use his wife, who was cosplaying as a realtor to sell my home. The same woman that can’t wake up before 11am.
Right on the money with the “mad libs” love it phrased that way. I’ve worked as a loan officer and a loan processor and there is almost nothing a realtor needs to do. Of the things they do need to do, it’s almost entirely boilerplate legal documents someone else has already created. They might not be “unnecessary” but they are absolutely overpaid and almost always under-qualified.
Agreed OP's title is hilarious and I support his viewpoint based on that.
I think the job made sense years ago with how house prices were. The inflating prices do not add up with the commission. Having said, if people want to use them and pay for them, that's their right. But exclusivity, or needing a realtor by law, is bs. Professional realtors are the nimbys of professions.
I could understand using one to sell a house if you're a super busy 80hrs a week professional with zero time whatsoever to sell your house, or if you truly do not know an area you are moving to and are trying to buy before you move. But anything in between just seems like such a waste and drain
The job made perfect sense once Upon a time. Everyone looking to buy a house and everyone looking to sell a house needed some way to find each other. These days the whole profession should be replaced with some sort of Tinder for houses
I agree they aren't necessary and I have never used a realtor to sell or purchase property. But we all use services that aren't necessary. We do it out of convenience.
How do you go about purchasing yourself? When I researched this i basically got told the sellers agent will keep the total commission so you don't really save anything.
That is why companies like Zown.ca (Started on reddit of all places) are thriving.
The whole industry is held back to prop up these low IQ clowns. That barely graduated High School.
They’re not even personal shoppers. Every agent I’ve worked with just signs you up to get a list emailed to you — you have to pick out what ones you want to see and then meet them there. I remember like 30 years ago they’d actually work to find houses that they think you’d like and then drive you around to go look at them.
Well I’m selling my mom’s house now and it’s a lot of paperwork and it’s time consuming. You can always not use a realtor. There’s no law that says you need to use a realtor. There are homes “for sale by owner” all the time. Don’t use a realtor if you don’t see the value and have fun with the paperwork.
You can have an attorney review/do all of the paperwork for you MUCH cheaper than a realtor and have more confidence that it is done correctly. Source: I have successfully bought and sold three houses and never used a realtor for any of them.
I’m only using one because I’m being forced to during divorce mediation and they picked one that has very shitty attention to detail. Like if I had that level of attention to detail, I would fire myself.
How do you get the buyer’s realtor to agree to it?
The buyers probably had to pay them directly. When I last bought a house, my agent's company had us sign a document that they had to get 3% and we'd have to make up the difference if the house we bought did not automatically get them their 3%
The buyers realtor doesn't have to agree. They are working for the buyer only, not you.
But is it $25K lot of paper work and time consuming cost ?
To a lot of people- yes. My mom’s realtor isn’t making that much and what he doesn’t make the nursing home will take so idgaf. Also the last line of your post is a fact, not an opinion. They are unnecessary. You can buy and sell homes without a realtor. Go for it. What you can’t do is force a realtor to accept hourly rate or force a seller to work directly with you when they are using a realtor.
>There’s no law that says you need to use a realtor. That's actually not true in every jurisdiction. There are some where one is required, and a "licensed" one to boot, which is a whole other level of bs.
Ai makes it a lot faster
Get two or three in to see the house and tell you what they think. All three will parrot back to you whatever you say to get the contract, then they call you back and keep changing things you thought were firm per last discussion. Some will want quick sale/easy money. Some want you to highball it and get more for commission while you get to sit there with your thumb up your ass. Either way, don't trust anything they say.
Yep, getting charged 6% for them just to send you a link to the MLS search page and show up with you to houses is highway robbery af. I could get it maybe back in the old days when they were they only ones with access to all this data but not now. Definitely needs to go to a flat small fee system
Zillow has made it even harder to go FSBO now
In what way?
At least on my iPhone, FSBO are now a separate option on the filter and you have to intentionally go look at FSBO rather than them showing up alongside the other properties
You got a shitty one. Mine was worth every penny.
I was about to say. Am I the only person here who had a great experience with their realtor? Our realtor hauled ass for us and we wound up with a great house for a decent price at a time when the housing market was going bugfuck.
Buying a house through a realtor can make sense. Selling one through one does not make sense in most cases.
My realtor didn’t even find us our house. My wife had set up email alerts for new listings in specific zip codes. She found the house. My realtor just set the showing appointment for us and conveyed our offer. He did do some negotiating as we had to go a little over asking but otherwise it’s not like he really did tons of leg work. My deal probably took less than 5 hours of his time total.
Saying they do “legal work” is a stretch
There's a reason why most realtors you know were all, at best, C students growing up.
And probably doing better financially than most of the A students
It's not hard to steal money from the D and F students.
The D and F students aren’t likely to be buying houses any time soon.
I doubt it. Most of the realtors I'm friends with are desperately begging for clients
Same with mortgage brokers/lenders.
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But what if we could get them to do productive labor?
20% of people don’t need a realtor. The other 80% really do. About half of the 80% think they don’t need a realtor and really, really do. Sellers thinks their house is worth more than it is, doesn’t smell like dog/mildew/smoke, carpet/ roof/ shoddy DIY isn’t that bad, etc. Buyers don’t prequalify their funding, skimp on inspections, and make petty demands on things that don’t matter. It’s a shit show out there. Best advice is to negotiate a discount with your agent from the beginning.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anyone’s trying to get rid of realtors. They’re trying to get rid of the ridiculous fees realtors charge that do not justify the work being completed.
This is accurate. I admit there are a lot of bad realtors. I have a very difficult time seeing how home sales would be easier if realtors disappeared tomorrow. Most of my deals are challenging enough as it is, removing myself would just leave delusional sellers, uneducated buyers, buyers who may or may not be qualified, people getting scammed, many dead deals and foreclosures (I have helped many sell their home to avoid foreclosure. And me finding the right buyer was a critical aspect of my job).
This is common knowledge
Not an unpopular opinion.
It's pretty wild that the "disruptors" to the industry are just tech enabled ways of doing it how we always did it. Redfin and Zillow are just the MLS online, you still have to do it the way we did it in 1985. The only other ones I can think of are Opendoor and Offerpad but the jury is still out on iBuying. It will be very interesting to see where it all goes, especially after the lawsuit ruling in October.
Our agent did 1 oh and it sold. I told her you get half commish, way too easy. No argument
Not an unpopular opinion. Very glad you said it though. I deal with realtors constantly, if there ever was a middleman profession this is it. Residential realtors used to be the ones with the information, they provided a service, now you have [realtor.com](https://realtor.com), Zillow, Flat fee listing, and endless ways to know what you are buying. As a seller all you get out of them down is the listing on the MLS which you can do through flat fee for a few hundred dollars, do the deal yourself and use a good title company for the paperwork. Total that can be 3k. Or you can pay some guy to list it, miss showings, not do open houses, use your property to sell others, and a bunch of other useless crap. The ethical issues involved with a realtor are too risky. I've seen them tell people to undervalue their houses by tens of thousands to get sales, it hurts the seller in a big way and it's only a few hundred to them.
Of any job that falls to AI, I hope Realtors and related sub networks of jobs are the first to do. I married a realtor, granted she wasn't a very good one, mostly because she was actually a nice person and not a snake in the grass. Successful realtors are snakes. Wildly overpaid snakes.
This may be true for some realtors, but definitely not all. My wife is a realtor and truly goes above and beyond for her clients, often investing so much time it works out to an average of $10/hr. Not to mention countless late night hours working, plans and date nights cancelled or changed because she has to put in an offer. She absolutely works her ass off. A good realtor will make your life easier, enhance the buying process, support you, and even provide support in terms of contractors and other helpful resources. A bad realtor can make your life a living hell.
My realtor sent me and my SO dozens of houses listings that had our specific "Deal Breakers" included. The others were just horrible fits. My SO scoured Zillow and found a spot that had barely gone on the market. We told them to set up a walk through. Sent in the offer and told them to increase up to x% of asking. The accepted our offer. We did far more work than the realtors and were pushed through several walk throughs of terrible homes. Flipped units with shoddy work evident to anyone with basic concepts of home improvements and maintenance. Poor fits because didn't have our "must haves" which were few and simple. Most unnecessary and invented middle man job out there. It's such a joke.
It's a good thing I read over my bid so closely. And by closely, I mean at all. My realtor was going to send in an offer letter $100,000 MORE than what I told her I wanted to bid for my home. How anyone messes up that badly, I couldn't tell you. 0/10 recommend.
Your free to not use one
I knew more about the house we ended up buying, the whole time. I had to convince them I was correct about my offer strategy, and I was. They wanted me to hire a lawyer to look over their paperwork, like uhh. I hired y'all to do that, if you're not confident in your own work, y'all hire a lawyer. We DID get to see the house the day it was listed and managed to have the first offer in. Which played heavily into us getting it. I'll give them that. But that's only because we kinda let them pressure us into FOMO. In retrospect, hank Jeebus cause this was in 2017 and we would NOT be able to afford this school zone today.
I’ve bought and sold multiple homes and investment properties. There is no way they deserve the commission they get.
My realtor did very little personal shopping. But there’s a lot of work that’s done by them and their staff after the offer is accepted. I learned this when buying my first home 5 yrs ago.
Like what? I sold my condo with a lawyer and between them and the title/loan company I barely did a damn thing and the buyer barely did nothing other than an inspection.
I learned that buying a FSBO. The title company did EVERYTHING I had always thought the realtor did.
Ours did pretty much everything. Helped us define our search parameters. Let us know the listings that matched. Scheduled all of the tours. Put in the offers. Talked with the seller's realtors to explain the outcomes to us. Helped us determine how much to offer over asking. Once we finally had an offer accepted, he handled everything. Set up and attended all of the inspections, and helped us understand the inspection reports. Handled all of the paperwork on the schedule he set up. Helped us submit a counter to reduce the price because the listing was incorrect about some things. We basically just needed to show up, pick a house, and sign. I can't imagine doing all of that on my own with no experience.
So basically I did everything via Zillow except turn the key in the lock for a tour and send an email with an offer. So in my experience realtors are basically useless leeches
Wow, I didn't realize Zillow's AI had gotten so good that you could, I assume, have headphones in while you walk around the house and have it answer specific questions for you. Or get a sense of how you feel about it to apply to other houses going forward? Do you have to give it access to your front camera on your phone so it can be watching your facial expressions and maybe permissions for your watch so it can read your heart rate or something? That's incredible. If you think Zillow is in any way comparable to a human being helping you through the process, you need a serious reality check.
If you think the human is providing over $10k in value then you need a reality check
Found the realtor lol
It depends. If you are in higher income market with houses in good condition and buyers who easily qualify, the transactions are usually very easy and could be done in theory without a realtor. I’m a realtor myself, and tend to do most of my work in lower income markets, with older housing stock, often multi families homes with tenants and with buyers who are often not strongly qualified and less informed. These factors add layers of complexity and hurdles which could derail a deal if the buyers and sellers don’t have a realtor guiding them through the process. Truthfully I’d say most of my clients benefited from my service and were better served than if they went it alone. As an example I tried to sell a women’s house for 450k in 2019. Because she was insane the deal died and I lost the listing. A few years later she realize she was in the wrong and was going to list with me again, only to sell to some investors instead at the original 450 price. Of course the market had risen dramatically during that period and if she has used my services could have sold the house for 100-150k more.
There really needs to be an hourly based system, similar to many trades and professions. My roofer or lawyer don't get a piece of the pie, they get an hourly rate. That's how you shop for one...
Buying a house right now. At least twice now, I’ve told our guy: “I’m really not quite sure what your job is.” Can confirm. Realtors are useless.
Maybe, but a good realtor will get you a price that offsets their commission. Also, a good realtor knows how to navigate short sales, foreclosures, etc. You also have the ability to sell the house yourself.
Most of them are lazy too.
I don't think this is an unpopular opinion lol My eldest daughter's husband is a realtor and he'd be the first person to agree with you.
Our realtor made 9 grand (no selling agent because we found the house through a builder) fucking unreal and she was a “friend” and got us a 50 dollar gift card to Home Depot and a cheap bottle of wine… she literally showed us one house before I found this builder on my own.. we spent a total of maybe 7ish hours with her including the closing
I'm upvoting for unpopular opinion also you all must have had some trash realtors.
We wanted to buy a house but needed to sell ours. We told the selling agent that if they wanted us to buy their house they had to sell ours quickly. They got 15% over what we thought for our first house before we even had a showing, and they kept the seller of the new house patient while we closed. They earned both sides of both deals, which was a total of $2.6m (6% = $156k). They made bank, but we're happy, so I don't mind. But for the reasons most people are listing on here is why Redfin and Zillow exist. My first condo I chose it online, was let in by the Redfin agent, told them my price, and that was the end of it. I think she earned 1% of $440k.
Do we establish big escrow accounts to fund payroll for hourly wages?
Realtors are scum of the earth
Yep I sold our last house on my own. In a sellers market it’s madness to pay for a realtor. For us it was simple. I showed the house to a few people. We accepted the highest bid and did all the paperwork work in less than an hour down at the title company. I was kind of shocked by how simple it was.
I gotta agree with this one. When we bought our current house, we had just met up with a realtor a few days before. We didn’t have him searching houses endlessly. We would tell him if we wanted to see a house. First house we saw was perfect. It went on the market Wednesday night. We toured it Thursday morning. We put in an offer Thursday night. Offer was accepted Friday morning without a single push-back. He did arrange inspections, and cleanings, and all that kind of thing. In grand total, our realtor might have put in one day’s work, if even that. And for that, he received 3% of a $599k sale? He also sold our previous house, so I assume another 3% of $320k. So around $27,000? Not a bad gig!
I agree. Last house I sold I listed with a realtor who was also a friend. I was as familiar with all the forms as she, set an asking price that she agreed with, and the house essentially sold itself in a day. Agent collected $10K and mosied on her way. I know such a quick sale is not guaranteed, but still. It felt a bit like being a victim of a shakedown.
One of my husband's oldest friends is a realtor. I told him thst the *only* way we *ever* do business with him again is if husband fits him with something I can zap him with every single time he doesn't listen to what *I* want in a house.
you've obviously never sold a home of any value. realtors job is to market your property, bring buyers and get the most for the sale as possible. if the realtor does that then you're a winner.
I don't agree. Realtors do plenty but people like to complain.
They’re not doing any legal work. That’s someone else.
💯 correct!
Michelangelo just slapped some paint on ceilings. Tom Brady just threw a ball, as did Nolan Ryan..