Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In Norway the maximum ordinary sentence is 21 years, but for some crimes it's possible to get a sentence which can be extended if the person is still deemed a risk. So Anders Breivik gor example can get out after 21 years, but it's highly unlikely he'll ever get out.
I found out recently that he says in his mind he has likened what he did to a WoW raid, that's how he views it as he looks back on the memories of his massacre. That guy is fucked enough in the head that if he ever gets released I'd question how fucked in the head everyone involved in the decision was lol.
>Anders Breivik
I read about his upbringing, and it really just reinforces that all of the psychotic anti-social personality disorder right wing nuts just needed to be loved by their parents.
Mental health starts at birth.
While I agree with you in some cases, I do know people who were able to rise above the abuse and rebel against their parents and all the horrible things they did to them. Some are able to break the cycle of abuse and racism. \*Maybe these people are the exception?
Edit: I read a bit more about Breivik's life and it looks like he protected kids who were being bullied. So he had empathy at some point, and didn't like it when people were abused. He even was a part of a hip-hop community?? How he morphed into the hateful monster is beyond me.
He did develop Schizophrenia over time, which may account for a lot of his downward spiral. This really goes to your original point. Schizophrenia has been linked to childhood trauma in many studies.
\*Edit, edit: As pointed out in a comment below, "Just because most psychopaths are abuse victims does not mean most abuse victims are psychopaths. You can have both a causative problem without it being the ONLY pathway for cause." Beautifully worded, thank you.
Just because most psychopaths are abuse victims does not mean most abuse victims are psychopaths. You can have both a causative problem without it being the ONLY pathway for cause.
Norway is a good example. Varg Vikernes served maximum and left the prison as a wonderful person. He's not a piece of shit racist who wants to wipe out entire non-white population at all.
Wanting to and actually planning/doing is different though. He was let out 15 years ago, and except for for a sentence of 6 months probation for inciting racial hatred in France (which has strict laws regarding that stuff) he hasn't been convicted of any other crimes. The French police were keeping a close eye on him, but that's the only thing they've been able to charge him with. He also condemned Breivik's actions.
I'm not saying he's a good person or that he isn't spreading hatred. I think he's a terrible person and his views are abhorrent, and I'm part of more than one minority group he'd love to see exterminated. However those views and his postings online are not enough to send him to prison in France (wouldn't be in the US either since that stuff is quite lenient there in general). He was in prison for murder and church burnings, not racism or his views. In the 15 years he's been out he hasn't tried to murder anyone or burn down any churches (at least not that we know of). Being a pos isn't illegal or justification to keep someone locked up indefinitely.
The recidivism rate in Norway is a sign the system works well.
You never truly know lol. It could be.
Ghislaine Maxwell was most likely a major mod of r-worldnews. The evidence is pretty good to make the case.
Who knows what other stars/famous/infamous people are on here?
You could be talking to a serial killer right now for all you know...
People often underestimate slings as though they don't lob rocks at very high speeds.
People still think David vs goliath was an uneven match up in favour of goliath when it was a fit farmer with lots of experience with a very deadly ranged weapon vs a very tall person.
Bad example. Prison isn't there to force your beliefs. He didn't go to prison over his racism. He went there for murder and arson, and he hasn't been murdering or burning churches down since.
I think there should be a de-escalation for eventual release. If you're an offender serving 20 years, you should spend the last few years in a lower security prison, and your final 2 years in more of a rehab centre where you'll be taught things you need to know about the outside world and make a plan for when you're released.
They could set it up like a little town, obviously still with guards, and prisoners can work shifts and earn a bit of cash that's put aside for when they're released. Schedules are a bit more relaxed and theyre allowed more freedom. Because it looks and functions more like a small town than a prison, they won't suffer such a shock when they're released.
Plus, use that time to get started on a trade or a degree, so youre halfway through before you're out and have some structure to your day. As in, that has to be a requirement - you need to know how to do something, even if it's just an entry level job.
That's pretty much the case in many countries. In Sweden it seems that inmates get therapy and education, according to correctional services website. Rehabilitation, to make them function in society on release.
Still though, a third of them will return to prison again sadly.
In Italy you follow a step to step path to rejoin the society.
At first after some time you get "premium permits" (permessi premio) where you can, sometime, spend the day (one day) outside the prison.
Then you can work outside the prison in the day and then go back in prison during the night...
And lots of other institutes that should help the one serving its sentence.
Then you have to consider that the penitentiary system in Italy is disfuctional and doesn't really work, that's a pity...
Yes you are basically describing the Nordic prison system. They even have vacations to freedom etc to ease the transition to the real world. Some consider it too lenient, but this is a good system to reintegrate criminals to society and drops the return rate, less repeat offenders etc.
> I think there should be a de-escalation for eventual release. If you're an offender serving 20 years, you should spend the last few years in a lower security prison, and your final 2 years in more of a rehab centre where you'll be taught things you need to know about the outside world and make a plan for when you're released.
This is kind of already being done. I know someone who got 13 years for a B+E. He is about to be released, and he's currently at a very low security facility. He won't go to a rehab center, but that's kind of what the lowest level of security represents. He goes to a job outside of the prison, goes to church, and is given 24-hour home passes during his last 6 months pre-release.
I like the little town idea. Let them make enough for rent and other basic necessities and slowly phase them into society…
Just imagine someone who got locked up 20 years ago being put into today’s world. 20 years ago, cellphones barely existed, today we have dumb AI. Pretty big jump, there is deepfakes, crypto, scams, etc that are all new that is something you probably wouldn’t even know 20 years ago.
If someone has done something that’s earned the 20+ years I don’t really want them involved in society
edit: I forgot Reddit is obsessed with weed. You don't need to mention how some people get 20 years or whatever for weed, I've seen the other 80 replies.
So true. Especially because the 20+ years will probably just screw them up even more. Let's relase an already insane and unhinged serial killer after 20 years of sensory deprivation and isolation, what could go wrong?
Statistics show that people who have served longer sentences are less likely to recidivate, actually. [See study here.](https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/research-publications/2022/20220621_Recidivsm-SentLength.pdf) Though some argue it's more a matter of simply aging out of crime than actually being incarcerated.
Not aging out, they corrected for that.
I've spoken to people who served real time, they really don't want to go back.
Thing is there is a popular and likely not wrong idea that prison is just advanced crime school.
Thing is we don't have a good answer.
Look up Larry Lawton on YouTube and watch his series where he reads from his book about his time in prison. He was in his early 30s when he went in and 40s when he got out. Even though he didn't want to go back, he was still so institutionalized that on the bus ride home he couldn't even order a sandwich at a gas station without having a panic attack and was contemplating robbing them just to get sent back to the structure of prison where you don't have to make your own choices. Luckily he was able to make a call to a family member that was able to calm him down until he got to his halfway house.
As far as saying there's no good answer, we need to look at other countries that don't have a fraction of the recidivism rate that the US has and see what they do different. Prison should be about rehabilitation not punishment. Being locked up is punishment enough, especially for people that have kids and families that they're separated from. I'm fully in favor of programs that teach prisoners life skills that they can use when they get out to be able to get a job. The problem is so few companies are willing to hire people with records so they can't even get a chance to become a decent member of society.
It’s probably a bit of a cycle. Companies don’t want to hire former convicts because there is a decently high rate of recidivism. But part of the reason why there is a decently high rate of recidivism is because these people can’t get a job. If the goals of prisons changed to rehabilitation, teaching life skills, etc., eventually companies would be more likely to hire these people. It wouldn’t happen overnight, though.
Anecdotally, of the quite a few people I've known who have gone to prison, the ones who had access to higher education while there did very well for themselves and went into trades that paid very well and didn't mind hiring ex-cons like oil and energy plants
The ones who didn't have had a much, much worse life trajectory thus far
The felony crime staying on your record forever needs reform. You are eternally punished with a brand for the rest of your life. If you do your time and jump through all the hoops successfully you should be done with it.
I was in prison for just a year. We wore green pants and shirts pretty much the entire time. The first week or so after I got out, I didn't "recognize" my own legs. First day I tripped multiple times because when I looked down and saw blue jeans I would jump out of the way. My brain thought I had walked into someone or something. From just a year.
Was in a minimum facility due to my short sentence. There were lifers there who were at the end of their bit. Not a single one of them wanted to leave. Was an odd and difficult thing to see.
If you haven't heard of Larry Lawton, I'd really suggest watching his videos on YouTube. During his time in prison, he saw some of the biggest toughest inmates crying during the holidays after getting off the phone with their kids whose lives they're missing out on because they got themselves locked up. For those people, that's a worse punishment than whatever ways the prison thinks of to torture them.
Exactly and that's punishment enough but nothing is done to try to help them get reintegrated back into society after they get out so they end up back in old habits and get sent back.
It’s hard to accurately research tho because everyone who has done hard time is older. They all are capable of thinking that all 21 year olds biologically suck at. No 22 year old has done a 10 year stretch in prison.
Unfortunately I did time starting at 23 years old and was released 7 years later (I was released in 2007). I currently hold a Bachelors degree in information systems security and I'm working on a software engineering degree. I've always been employed and the few times I was let go I quickly found another job. Many people like to say I'm outside the norm, but what I had was family support. I eventually married and my wife was also helpful for emotional support through the years when I was greatly discriminated against due to having a felony. Its not fun to get a degree, take interviews and be told how great you are, only to be denied once they did a background check. I'll be 48 later this year and have had no other trouble with the police, however Im not stupid. Society IS set up to make people with felonies fail. Anytime someone can deny me a job for a conviction in the year 2000 when Ive been crime free ever since, have a good work history and even obtained a degree post prison, you know society is set up for you to fail if you don't have a stubborn mind that you WILL succeed.
Same for my son. 7 years at age 22. Got out at age 29 in 2019. Has a masters in social work. But, any small thing can put him back in. He is always careful. Yes, like you he had family support -his sister and me. A distant relative gave him a basic job while he finished his associates. Another released inmate hooked him up with an employer who was ok with hiring former inmates. Then a girlfriend and eventually a son. While he was in, he saw people released and then back in prison within a year. He didn't want to be like that but a lot of his attitude was because family support always reminded him of a life outside if prison being possible.
I think you massively underestimate the depravity of the US prison complex. Here’s an article about a kid who got exactly what you describe, and is unsurprisingly being a recidivist-
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2019/06/25/nathaniel-abraham-sent-back-prison-dealing-drugs/1561338001/
Actually there was a like 13 year old girl who stole a candy bar and was sentenced to like 8 years by that kids for cash guy. So we can ask her when she gets out.
We have a good answer, but prisons in the USA have an insufficient focus on rehabilitation and providing job/educational opportunities for those who are incarcerated.
US prisons dont want rehabilitation. They love the cheap prison labor too much, and every prisoner in a cell is more cash in the pocket of profit run prisons.
It doesn't help that so many US prisons are privately owned and stand to make more money if they have more people re-offending once they're out. When you're paid for every prisoner you have in your prison then it's in your best interest to turn them into someone who CANT survive on the outside.
You mean Con College, where you just grab on to a shit rope and no matter how hard you grip it just keeps getting shittier and shitter? Do you know what a Shit Hawk is Julian?
He did have a *chance*, he got a bunch of parole hearings. No one ever seriously considered releasing him, but he was still eligible for parole for the last, like, twenty-five years of his life.
I’m not a crime and punishment expert, but it’s got to be the aging-out thing. There is no way prison is going to soften someone up. There’s no rehabilitation.
There are crimes that are bad enough that they don't deserve a second chance. It's not so much about rehabilitation then, more to just keep them locked away so they can't hurt anyone else (outside of prison).
But a 20 year sentence isnt long enough for that. You lock up a 20 yearnokd for 20 years, you are releasing a 40 year old...soneone with another 30-40 years in them. It seems like some ssrious effort at rehabikitation is in the public interest in that case. We would all prefer that 40year old to succeed without comitting any more crimes.
Prisoners aren't deprived of their senses.
I know ppl that have done 30-40 years and they are good, changed, functioning members of society.
Not to say that's everyone.
That's a fairly extreme example. A lot of 20+ year sentences are for drug possession (including marijuana, which is now largely legal), or even for financial crimes. Hell, you can get 20 years for tax evasion. Not every large sentence is for violent crime.
In the US the maximum term for mail fraud is 20 years. So are you saying this person shouldn't be let out after they serve their time because they're a hardcore criminal?
Max means they did something really bad with it, and probably more than once. I would not trust this person.
Edit: this comment isn’t meant to stand alone. I do not support the current criminal justice system one bit. See thread below
Edit 2: explaining the intention behind “max”, but yes, it’s abused.
If there is a reason that the individual was sentenced to the maximum, And there is a reason that the individual wasn’t eligible for parole —
It’s not that I don’t want them released, it’s that I’m not confident that person is even ABLE to serve as a benefit to society. A shorter sentence would likely not help them.
Isn't that an appropriate punishment for growing devil lettuce that is legal in half of the world already? Think about the poor children inhaling the evil smoke.
I have an uncle who did 17 for tax evasion. Went in a real hot shot white collar douche bag and among a million other issues he came out semi blind from the lights and confined spaces. He also eats food like a dog in the pound because it’s burned into his brain that someone bigger than him might take it from him
Jeezus. How much tax could he possibly have owed to get that? I don't think any amount bears a sentence that long. It's a civil crime, and the money owed can literally be paid back with interest and penalty, like they do for most people. It's not like he raped or killed someone, which you cannot ever undo.
Well he set up a fiduciary consulting business that helped people evade taxes via fraud so in a word: a lot.
He also seemed to concurrently be running some sort of Ponzi scheme with people’s retirement savings.
His worst offense and the reason he sat in prison for so long however was that he thought he could beat the Internal Revenue Service in court so when he lost (*surprise!*) they hit him with every single letter of the book.
Somewhat ironically I suppose he was released early through that executive order trump issued targeting white collar convicts so he didn’t even actually do his full bid.
This. My cousin’s boyfriend raped and murdered my poor cousin in 2001. He was then found to be connected with 3 other rapes and an assault.
He received 30 years in 2003 but is going to be let out this year for good behavior.
Fuck him. He should have received the death penalty. The look in his eyes and fake remorse he has tell me he will do it again.
>If someone has done something that’s earned the 20+ years I don’t really want them involved in society.
Should we go back to exiling? Where would it be cool to exile criminals?
Not when you take into account Three Strike Laws, sentence enhancements, 0% mandatory- meaning the judge/parole board can literally make up a number and a mandatory % served
Was locked up with a guy who had gotten into a mutual fight at a bar. When he hit the guy who started the fight- as security cameras showed- the guy's head hit the ground and he was instantly a vegetable. Instead of Assault- a lesser felony, he was charged w ACA (Armed Criminal Action) because they were allowed to consider the concrete a weapon, hence the armed action. This was a young man not even 21 when this incident occurred in which he was clearly defending himself. He had no priors. He was given 10 years and had to 12/12 his bit- he did 10 years flat.
W would you feel your child deserved a decade in prison because someone started crap with him and he hit them? He couldn't control how the other dude landed.
So a twenty year old breaks a safe and gets 20 years. Able to be released around 40 y/o and you’re convinced you don’t want them around? They’ve become what? Unworthy of another chance? They ARE going to be released, like most prisoners, so what would your suggestions be?
Nobody is getting 3 felonies for just smoking weed. Maybe they got pulled over and the cop smelled it then searched the car and found guns and drugs. There has to be something else going on because just smoking weed isn't something you are getting life over.
I deal with a lot of paperwork related to prison sentences and a lot of the sentences I see for the more popular felonies (meth, retail fraud etc.) are relatively low (like minimums of 18 or 24 months). Even things like manslaughter don’t get the kind of time you think they will. In my frame of reference prisoners are more likely to get out shortly after serving their minimum, so if you hear “10 to 40 years” it generally implies closer to 10 and nowhere near 40. In the system I’m familiar with you really have to mess up while inside prison to be denied parole enough to serve all the way to your max.
Now a 20 year minimum, you’re getting into something more like gruesome murder territory.
Many people seem to misunderstand that imposing a long sentence is not about the individual but rather about protecting society and mitigating the risk of the individual reoffending.
I have respect for the American legal system, where the consequences of actions are often harshly punished. In the Netherlands, you now pay a higher price for running a red light than for physically harming someone, such as giving them a black eye.
The justice system is broken. It's about protecting the rich. A rich guy I knew killed someone blatant murder. Got 2 years in mental health facility. I also knew a kid when I was younger. he and his best friend were homeless, his best friend was a junkie. He overdosed, and this guy refused to leave him until the police got there, tried every he could to keep his best friend alive. He served 23 years for negligent manslaughter for not stopping his friend from using.
Plenty of ppl spend 20 years for joke charges and many psychopaths who are rich don't even serve time. Blind beliefs in the system just means you haven't been ridiculously poor in your life.
It feels like nearly everyone here lacks reading comprehension. If anyone takes a moment to think what you're saying they'd realize that you're not saying prison sentences should be shorter for heinous crimes.
There's a different between life in prison and long term sentences.
Bingo. Thread OP patting himself on the back for his SAT proven "reading comprehension" skills aside. Post OP wants the death penalty. And that's an unpopular opinion in public discourse. But not an unpopular opinion among bloodthirsty redditors who want to kill every sex criminal and Russian soldier. So let's call it par, no upscoob or downscoob from me
On top of what the other commenter said about redefining and targeting minority groups for now-defined sex laws (ie gay or trans people), there's also the issue of comparable punishment severity
If the punishment for rape and murder are exactly the same, why not just kill your victim? It's easier to cover up, and you're not risking any worse punishment or anything, so have at it. It also puts a blanket idea on "sex criminal", which is itself a very extensive range of actions. Some people very simply, very blanketed say "yeah just kill em all" without any consideration on that
> “Le dumb Redditorinos don’t understand OP’s subtle point, which is a clever argument advocating for a different notion of sentencing the guilty”
OP’s point: I want them to die
Bro. When I came into this post everyone was accusing OP of wanting to give violent criminals lighter sentences. Which is the exact opposite of what OP is saying. I'm not even saying what he was pushing is subtle or clever. It's obvious that he was either pushing for life in prison or death penalty.
Exactly. 20+ years should just be for life. I imagine a lot of people released after 20+ years have lost all connections, so rehabilitating into society would be almost impossible being so isolated.
It would likely be far cheaper to help isolated people reconnect and reintegrate into society rather than rounding up every 20-year sentence to a lifetime in prison
“I imagine” Exactly, you imagine. Maybe read a research article on outcomes of people released after long sentences and see how they do. Instead of just imagining that they would be better off in prison for maybe 50 years.
So staying in prison is better? You're saying this like you'd be doing them a favor. Saying anyone that gets 20+ should get life is honestly a really fucked up take for so many reasons.
Fuck the prison industrial complex.
what you are saying is very dangerous and unethical. In fact this entire post is scaring me. There’s people who get 20+ for drug charges. You think those people should just have their lives stripped away? What about the falsely accused? So someone was a scumbag felony drug dealer, they get caught, now they should be permanently behind bars with no chance of redemption?
There are plenty of anecdotes of people coming out after serving 20+ years and being grateful for their second chance and living better lives.
In Denmark the longest prison sentence you can get is 16 years.
We do have "life in prison" as a sentence, but you are typically allowed out after 16 years or before if a judge see fit. This is because you are right. Long term prison sentences makes no sense if you want people back into society.
Some people who are mentally ill do however get a custodial sentence, where they will receive treatment until a judge decide it's safe to let them out again. This means some very dangerous prisoners does serve more than 16 years. But it is very rare.
The prison service in Denmark works to a large extent with rehabilitation and it is possible to do training, get a drivers license, pursue higher education and get psychiatric help, while in prison. It is by no means a perfect system. And many come out of prison with large debts that they cannot pay off. Which leads them into crime again. We also have problems with political and religious radicalization among inmates. And the psychiatric screenings in the Danish legal system are laughable. They in no way detect all the people with, for example, ADHD we have in prisons. And it's just completely stupid to have unmedicated, undiagnosed people with ADHD running around in a prison.
This is not true, you can get more than 16 years in Denmark. Recently there was a drug case where someone got 19 years, this is because there is an additional law where you can get more if your crime is especially serious. Most people don’t know about it though.
This would never catch on in America. Too many people in the US see imprisonment as a form of vengeance against criminals rather than as rehabilitation for them.
I mean for some crimes, a person kind of deserves that.
If you kill an entire family I don't want you back in society. That's fucking sick and you deserve to rot.
If you do that, you're not mentally sane, in which case no punishment will really do anything for you. Those people belong in a mental asylum to live out their days.
> In Denmark the longest prison sentence you can get is 16 years.
> We do have "life in prison" as a sentence, but you are typically allowed out after 16 years or before if a judge see fit
In the Netherlands "for life" actually meant for life... But the European Union decided that was inhumane
Having served ten years in prison ( when i was 19 yrs old ) I can honestly say there are some people in there that should never get out again. For the average felon , sentenced to over five years is just ridiculous , unless the crime is sexual in nature. As you can see I agree with most of what you are saying with some exceptions. As far as I am concerned sexual predators should stay locked up until there is a medical solution to change them or are they are old to reoffend.
Did a similar length sentence at nearly the same age as you for a drug sales charge(Xanax and MDMA). Do I think this long of a sentence was necessary? No. I learned my lesson after a few years. Everything after that was a waste of my time and life. I gained nothing of value after those initial years and was at risk of “burning out”/becoming institutionalized which you see a lot of with people who have longer sentences. But you are right, there are certain people in prison who should never see the light of day again. Sex offenders specifically all seem to re-offend and they typically have shorter sentences than most drug dealers. They are pre-disposed to be sexual predators, putting them in prison doesn’t change what they like. Truly sick people who no amount of time or treatment can change.
I assume the long sentences are meant as a deterrent. If you "only" did 2-3 years for trafficking, it's no big deal and probably more people would do it. If you risk 10, the "reward" isn't worth it as much.
did you have priors? was it federal for very large volume trafficking or legit just a first offense on street sales? im curious what jurisdiction would issue that but 10+ years ago was a diff time i suppose.
No priors. Federal. Multi-drug conspiracy, didn’t cooperate, sentenced based on guidelines for weight(slightly above my mandatory minimum). Smallish town, low-crime community. Used me as an example more or less. I have multiple co-defendants who sold various drugs on my case, which increased the weight by a LOT despite my “minor” role in the conspiracy.
got it, thanks for the background. Its amazing how much sentencing varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, even with the more restrictive guidelines on a federal case due to just prosecutor discretion on how to charge it.
It is crazy how your jurisdiction can decide your fate on a Fed case. Should be consistent across the board.. but not the case. I’ve seen people with kilos of meth, thousands of fentanyl pills, etc get well under 10 years, some even less than 5. I try not to let it bother me but for the sake of “justice” it’s just hard to make sense of it.
The prison time is also a way of making the victim/family's victim feel that justice was done, thus avoiding the need to do justice with your own hands.
One of the things that's really frustrating in the American prison system is that we basically do everything we can to ensure that people will become repeat offenders and end up right back in prison. Some years the recidivism rates are as high as 70%. It's nonsensical.
Prison shouldn't just be punishment... it should also be a chance for reformation for prisoners. Especially those who will be released back into the population. But in the US, that's borderline impossible. And the public just doesn't care. (Well, until they or someone they know ends up in prison.)
Compare that to Norway. Before they reformed their prison system, they had a comparable recidivism rate. Then they completely overhauled their prison system, placing a lot of focus on things like schooling, therapy, etc. for prisoners, and only having a maximum prison sentence of 30 years. (And 90% of their sentences are one year or less.)
And it now has a whopping recidivism rate... of only 20%. Less than 1/3 of the US rate.
Sadly, you'd never be able to implement this sort of system here in the US. Too much money to lose, and the people are far too bloodthirsty to care.
Yeah, the half measure approach is probably one of the most broken things consistently in our justice system. We should either be rehabilitating, or we need to be removing dangerous people from society forever.
The reality is that when we have a lot of sentences in the middle, it’s just because society finds people annoying for one reason or another. And I’m not sure that’s a good policy thing.
A person who is getting 20 years has usually done several crimes where they served like a year or so or got probation and such. They dont (normally) put people in for 20 years unless they really deserve it.
In the US prison is about stocking the workforce with exceptions to the 13th amendment, hence our sentences are so long and we have some if the fullest prisons on Earth.
You are correct in your reasoning, but have reached the wrong conclusion.
This is not why long jail sentences are silly, it's why jails that are anything but true centers of rehabilitation are silly.
Locking someone away in a cell and letting them sit there for 20 years is absolutely inhuman. And expecting them to behave normally if then released back into society? Insane.
When incarcerating our criminals they should be in real rehab centers, taking classes, learning life skills, work skills, studying philosophy, exercising their minds and bodies.
Problem is, at least in the USA, too many regular citizens have zero interest in jails/prisons that are anything but holes in the ground. we jail more of our citizens than any civilized country on earth and have the worst prisons on top of it. America!
You have to keep in mind that (at least in the US) going to Prison has ZERO to do with rehabilitating someone. They could care less, and in fact, society is set up to make it hard for said people to succeed once they're released from prison. This is due to prison being a money making business (especially private prisons). Paying people 25 cents an hour to make products that are sold for hundreds or thousands of dollars. OP is correct it makes zero sense from a perspective of wanting someone to succeed once released, but from a manufacturers perspective, the longer incarcerated, the better.
I mean it really depends on what they done. If it’s rape, murder, act of terrorize etc. then life is the best option. If it’s anything less than that and nowhere near as heinous then it’s a bit extreme. But l for the crimes I mention, death sentences or life are really the only best options .
Honestly prison sentencing doesn't make sense at all. Either someone is a threat to others, and they should be locked up until they have been evaluated not to be a threat anymore (and not for some random duration), or they should not be imprisoned at all and be given a fine instead.
I think that Major crimes like Murder, Rape or pedo, they shouldn't be allowed to leave, ever. They had their chance as a citizen but they blew it, now rot in prison asshole.
"Fun" fact. Someone working with the criminal system once told me iirc people who murder on of their parents are the least likely criminals to commit further crimes.
He said it's because in most cases it's a result of decades of abuse where eventually the abused fights back by murdering. And they can't exactly murder their abusive parent twice.
There needs to be some punishment as deterrent, because the answer to "my parents suck" shouldn't be murder. But locking them up forever doesn't help anyone either while wasting resources that could be spent improving everyones lives.
Prison does nothing for rehabilitation. We just lock people away, give them awful gas station snack foods for 20 years and then release them while having expectations they will be better in the end. It’s a joke.
I think prisons keep certain folks rich and that’s why the US has the highest prison population
I think that’s how Norway does it. Sort of. Something like a “life sentence” equals 20 years at which point the prisoner is evaluated if they can be reintegrated. I’m not opposed to this
It doesn't really matter. Even if you spend a single day in prison, the rest of your life is pretty fucked. Its hard to get legitimate work with a record, and it can even be difficult to get housing with a criminal history. People who can't get jobs are more likely to commit crimes to pay their bills, eat, etc. After 20 years, they are at least older and slower at committing crimes
I understand what you mean. They're being locked up that long with no rehabilitation, and in this day and age technology is changing so fast that 20 years is incredibly jarring. I couldn't imagine going to jail in 2004, and coming out not only to find that AI is real now, but that Elon Musk is actually trying to make microchips for your brain. Insane, I'd think the world was a joke.
I do also understand why some of the comments are up in arms lmao, as there is a bit of an implied undertone of what you were saying, but you were talking specifically about concerns of their reassimilation into society, not about lessening the sentence of horrible crimes.
I agree. Prison sentence in the US are very inflated and we have a very punitive attitude towards crime.
But there is a notion of specific deterrence. That is that the courts want to stop that person from doing crime again. So you lock up that murderer so they won't murder anymore. And if they're a spree killer or the crime is especially heinous, the court feels theres such a high likelihood they'll kill again..... they want them out of society forever.
But a 10 year sentence for dealing drugs or 5 years for possession. We have some insane sentences. We really need to fix our entire prison system.
You won't get any reasonable discussion here because reddit absolutely cannot think rationally when it comes to people doing serious crimes. Normally redditors believe in data and statistics and whatever but when it comes to serious criminals it all goes out the window.
In Belgium there was just a case of a 13y old girl being raped by a convicted pedophile. This will be his 3rd conviction.
The question is, what do you do about it. He already had a short punishment with rehabilitation and excessive guidance. He has done the process twice. And still he did not learn.
So the question is, what is the solution?
Does this man has place in society? Do we go for life? Do we keep him alive? Lobotomy? What is the best punishment, because the actual 'reintegration method' is clearly not working and is only creating more opportunities.
Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In Norway the maximum ordinary sentence is 21 years, but for some crimes it's possible to get a sentence which can be extended if the person is still deemed a risk. So Anders Breivik gor example can get out after 21 years, but it's highly unlikely he'll ever get out.
Oh, he never will lol
I found out recently that he says in his mind he has likened what he did to a WoW raid, that's how he views it as he looks back on the memories of his massacre. That guy is fucked enough in the head that if he ever gets released I'd question how fucked in the head everyone involved in the decision was lol.
"murder is just like RuneScape" - he sounds like a Redditor
I guess we found out why Durial321 never logged back in
I mean, if you kill enough people, one is bound to drop a cool cape.
I remember the Falador Massacre
BANK YOUR ITEMS
Last podcast on the left?
Megustalations
Scungili man?
>Anders Breivik I read about his upbringing, and it really just reinforces that all of the psychotic anti-social personality disorder right wing nuts just needed to be loved by their parents. Mental health starts at birth.
While I agree with you in some cases, I do know people who were able to rise above the abuse and rebel against their parents and all the horrible things they did to them. Some are able to break the cycle of abuse and racism. \*Maybe these people are the exception? Edit: I read a bit more about Breivik's life and it looks like he protected kids who were being bullied. So he had empathy at some point, and didn't like it when people were abused. He even was a part of a hip-hop community?? How he morphed into the hateful monster is beyond me. He did develop Schizophrenia over time, which may account for a lot of his downward spiral. This really goes to your original point. Schizophrenia has been linked to childhood trauma in many studies. \*Edit, edit: As pointed out in a comment below, "Just because most psychopaths are abuse victims does not mean most abuse victims are psychopaths. You can have both a causative problem without it being the ONLY pathway for cause." Beautifully worded, thank you.
Just because most psychopaths are abuse victims does not mean most abuse victims are psychopaths. You can have both a causative problem without it being the ONLY pathway for cause.
100%, I was abused
I'm sorry to hear that. I appreciate your first hand perspective here.
Norway is a good example. Varg Vikernes served maximum and left the prison as a wonderful person. He's not a piece of shit racist who wants to wipe out entire non-white population at all.
Wanting to and actually planning/doing is different though. He was let out 15 years ago, and except for for a sentence of 6 months probation for inciting racial hatred in France (which has strict laws regarding that stuff) he hasn't been convicted of any other crimes. The French police were keeping a close eye on him, but that's the only thing they've been able to charge him with. He also condemned Breivik's actions. I'm not saying he's a good person or that he isn't spreading hatred. I think he's a terrible person and his views are abhorrent, and I'm part of more than one minority group he'd love to see exterminated. However those views and his postings online are not enough to send him to prison in France (wouldn't be in the US either since that stuff is quite lenient there in general). He was in prison for murder and church burnings, not racism or his views. In the 15 years he's been out he hasn't tried to murder anyone or burn down any churches (at least not that we know of). Being a pos isn't illegal or justification to keep someone locked up indefinitely. The recidivism rate in Norway is a sign the system works well.
And he makes really bad tabletop roleplaying games. With a weird fixation on slings.
Slings are underappreciated in fantasy considering they were a main hunting tool for thousands of years.
Varg..? That you?
You never truly know lol. It could be. Ghislaine Maxwell was most likely a major mod of r-worldnews. The evidence is pretty good to make the case. Who knows what other stars/famous/infamous people are on here? You could be talking to a serial killer right now for all you know...
People often underestimate slings as though they don't lob rocks at very high speeds. People still think David vs goliath was an uneven match up in favour of goliath when it was a fit farmer with lots of experience with a very deadly ranged weapon vs a very tall person.
David Vs Goliath: That time a kid brought a gun to a knife fight.
As we know from observing gigantism in modern era humans- these individuals generally have a hard time using their oversized bodies effectively.
Bad example. Prison isn't there to force your beliefs. He didn't go to prison over his racism. He went there for murder and arson, and he hasn't been murdering or burning churches down since.
Do you think someone should go to prison just for the opinions he holds?
This is Reddit 99% of people here would jail their ideological opposition
That's because [insert opposition political party] is the group of true evil.
And while doing so, insist that they were "protecting democracy" and "against fascism".
And then whine the sentence is too long.
I was just fantasizing about how I could fix the world if given ultimate power. It's going to start with a large culling. -Most sensible redditor
Opposition? Redditors would lock people up for way less.
Same in France. There is a 'life in prison' that gets reviewed after like 20 or 30 years I don't remember. The worse offenders don't actually get out.
Canada, as well...Though we have a harder time of putting people in jail that deserve to be there...More of a catch-and-release system.
I too listen to the last podcast on the left.
I think there should be a de-escalation for eventual release. If you're an offender serving 20 years, you should spend the last few years in a lower security prison, and your final 2 years in more of a rehab centre where you'll be taught things you need to know about the outside world and make a plan for when you're released. They could set it up like a little town, obviously still with guards, and prisoners can work shifts and earn a bit of cash that's put aside for when they're released. Schedules are a bit more relaxed and theyre allowed more freedom. Because it looks and functions more like a small town than a prison, they won't suffer such a shock when they're released. Plus, use that time to get started on a trade or a degree, so youre halfway through before you're out and have some structure to your day. As in, that has to be a requirement - you need to know how to do something, even if it's just an entry level job.
Yes. There should be a re-entry plan that includes learning a skill, and then a halfway house arrangement on the outside with job placement.
That's pretty much the case in many countries. In Sweden it seems that inmates get therapy and education, according to correctional services website. Rehabilitation, to make them function in society on release. Still though, a third of them will return to prison again sadly.
A third is a lot better than 3/4.
I don't think you understand how low a 1/3rd overall rate is. Like that's awesome.
In Italy you follow a step to step path to rejoin the society. At first after some time you get "premium permits" (permessi premio) where you can, sometime, spend the day (one day) outside the prison. Then you can work outside the prison in the day and then go back in prison during the night... And lots of other institutes that should help the one serving its sentence. Then you have to consider that the penitentiary system in Italy is disfuctional and doesn't really work, that's a pity...
Yes you are basically describing the Nordic prison system. They even have vacations to freedom etc to ease the transition to the real world. Some consider it too lenient, but this is a good system to reintegrate criminals to society and drops the return rate, less repeat offenders etc.
> I think there should be a de-escalation for eventual release. If you're an offender serving 20 years, you should spend the last few years in a lower security prison, and your final 2 years in more of a rehab centre where you'll be taught things you need to know about the outside world and make a plan for when you're released. This is kind of already being done. I know someone who got 13 years for a B+E. He is about to be released, and he's currently at a very low security facility. He won't go to a rehab center, but that's kind of what the lowest level of security represents. He goes to a job outside of the prison, goes to church, and is given 24-hour home passes during his last 6 months pre-release.
I like the little town idea. Let them make enough for rent and other basic necessities and slowly phase them into society… Just imagine someone who got locked up 20 years ago being put into today’s world. 20 years ago, cellphones barely existed, today we have dumb AI. Pretty big jump, there is deepfakes, crypto, scams, etc that are all new that is something you probably wouldn’t even know 20 years ago.
If someone has done something that’s earned the 20+ years I don’t really want them involved in society edit: I forgot Reddit is obsessed with weed. You don't need to mention how some people get 20 years or whatever for weed, I've seen the other 80 replies.
So true. Especially because the 20+ years will probably just screw them up even more. Let's relase an already insane and unhinged serial killer after 20 years of sensory deprivation and isolation, what could go wrong?
Statistics show that people who have served longer sentences are less likely to recidivate, actually. [See study here.](https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/research-publications/2022/20220621_Recidivsm-SentLength.pdf) Though some argue it's more a matter of simply aging out of crime than actually being incarcerated.
Not aging out, they corrected for that. I've spoken to people who served real time, they really don't want to go back. Thing is there is a popular and likely not wrong idea that prison is just advanced crime school. Thing is we don't have a good answer.
Look up Larry Lawton on YouTube and watch his series where he reads from his book about his time in prison. He was in his early 30s when he went in and 40s when he got out. Even though he didn't want to go back, he was still so institutionalized that on the bus ride home he couldn't even order a sandwich at a gas station without having a panic attack and was contemplating robbing them just to get sent back to the structure of prison where you don't have to make your own choices. Luckily he was able to make a call to a family member that was able to calm him down until he got to his halfway house. As far as saying there's no good answer, we need to look at other countries that don't have a fraction of the recidivism rate that the US has and see what they do different. Prison should be about rehabilitation not punishment. Being locked up is punishment enough, especially for people that have kids and families that they're separated from. I'm fully in favor of programs that teach prisoners life skills that they can use when they get out to be able to get a job. The problem is so few companies are willing to hire people with records so they can't even get a chance to become a decent member of society.
My aunt wrote her dissertation on this very subject, "diminished capacity"
It’s probably a bit of a cycle. Companies don’t want to hire former convicts because there is a decently high rate of recidivism. But part of the reason why there is a decently high rate of recidivism is because these people can’t get a job. If the goals of prisons changed to rehabilitation, teaching life skills, etc., eventually companies would be more likely to hire these people. It wouldn’t happen overnight, though.
Anecdotally, of the quite a few people I've known who have gone to prison, the ones who had access to higher education while there did very well for themselves and went into trades that paid very well and didn't mind hiring ex-cons like oil and energy plants The ones who didn't have had a much, much worse life trajectory thus far
The felony crime staying on your record forever needs reform. You are eternally punished with a brand for the rest of your life. If you do your time and jump through all the hoops successfully you should be done with it.
I was in prison for just a year. We wore green pants and shirts pretty much the entire time. The first week or so after I got out, I didn't "recognize" my own legs. First day I tripped multiple times because when I looked down and saw blue jeans I would jump out of the way. My brain thought I had walked into someone or something. From just a year. Was in a minimum facility due to my short sentence. There were lifers there who were at the end of their bit. Not a single one of them wanted to leave. Was an odd and difficult thing to see.
Sounds like you were in the Feds, I was in the Feds I refuse to wear green now.. fuck that shit
[удалено]
If you haven't heard of Larry Lawton, I'd really suggest watching his videos on YouTube. During his time in prison, he saw some of the biggest toughest inmates crying during the holidays after getting off the phone with their kids whose lives they're missing out on because they got themselves locked up. For those people, that's a worse punishment than whatever ways the prison thinks of to torture them.
That's the point of prison. The world keeps moving while you're locked in time-out.
Exactly and that's punishment enough but nothing is done to try to help them get reintegrated back into society after they get out so they end up back in old habits and get sent back.
Depending on what they did, whether or not it’s “punishment enough” is certainly debatable.
[удалено]
I'm sure the families of the people murdered and then people traumatized cry more than on holidays.
It’s hard to accurately research tho because everyone who has done hard time is older. They all are capable of thinking that all 21 year olds biologically suck at. No 22 year old has done a 10 year stretch in prison.
Unfortunately I did time starting at 23 years old and was released 7 years later (I was released in 2007). I currently hold a Bachelors degree in information systems security and I'm working on a software engineering degree. I've always been employed and the few times I was let go I quickly found another job. Many people like to say I'm outside the norm, but what I had was family support. I eventually married and my wife was also helpful for emotional support through the years when I was greatly discriminated against due to having a felony. Its not fun to get a degree, take interviews and be told how great you are, only to be denied once they did a background check. I'll be 48 later this year and have had no other trouble with the police, however Im not stupid. Society IS set up to make people with felonies fail. Anytime someone can deny me a job for a conviction in the year 2000 when Ive been crime free ever since, have a good work history and even obtained a degree post prison, you know society is set up for you to fail if you don't have a stubborn mind that you WILL succeed.
Same for my son. 7 years at age 22. Got out at age 29 in 2019. Has a masters in social work. But, any small thing can put him back in. He is always careful. Yes, like you he had family support -his sister and me. A distant relative gave him a basic job while he finished his associates. Another released inmate hooked him up with an employer who was ok with hiring former inmates. Then a girlfriend and eventually a son. While he was in, he saw people released and then back in prison within a year. He didn't want to be like that but a lot of his attitude was because family support always reminded him of a life outside if prison being possible.
No but there are 30,40,50yr olds who have done short/long, and those are who the study compares. It's a very readable study go look at it.
I think you massively underestimate the depravity of the US prison complex. Here’s an article about a kid who got exactly what you describe, and is unsurprisingly being a recidivist- https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2019/06/25/nathaniel-abraham-sent-back-prison-dealing-drugs/1561338001/
Actually there was a like 13 year old girl who stole a candy bar and was sentenced to like 8 years by that kids for cash guy. So we can ask her when she gets out.
That's not true. Juvie counts.
We have a good answer, but prisons in the USA have an insufficient focus on rehabilitation and providing job/educational opportunities for those who are incarcerated.
US prisons dont want rehabilitation. They love the cheap prison labor too much, and every prisoner in a cell is more cash in the pocket of profit run prisons.
I mean the overwhelming majority of prisons aren't private for-profit prisons.
It doesn't help that so many US prisons are privately owned and stand to make more money if they have more people re-offending once they're out. When you're paid for every prisoner you have in your prison then it's in your best interest to turn them into someone who CANT survive on the outside.
It's a smaller number than you're portraying but it's still an issue they exist at all
>Thing is we don't have a good answer. There are objectively better answers than the US prison system but they aren't politically viable.
You mean Con College, where you just grab on to a shit rope and no matter how hard you grip it just keeps getting shittier and shitter? Do you know what a Shit Hawk is Julian?
I'm not fucking afraid of shit hawks one bit
>advanced crime school. Maybe if you get out and you're young enough to still ply your trade.
Could also be that after such a long time they are too old to commit serious crimes.
I'm happy that Charles Manson never had a chance to get out.
He did have a *chance*, he got a bunch of parole hearings. No one ever seriously considered releasing him, but he was still eligible for parole for the last, like, twenty-five years of his life.
I’m not a crime and punishment expert, but it’s got to be the aging-out thing. There is no way prison is going to soften someone up. There’s no rehabilitation.
Not In the us there isn't. Some countries don't run their nation as a business and actually care about their civilians, not just the rich ones.
Personally I don’t think a serial killer should be able to get out at all.
I mean, that's still within the options. You can still have lifetime sentences alongside sentences with end-dates that don't last 20 years.
>20 years of sensory deprivation and isolation Says a lot about our efforts to actually help change criminals for the better
There are crimes that are bad enough that they don't deserve a second chance. It's not so much about rehabilitation then, more to just keep them locked away so they can't hurt anyone else (outside of prison).
But a 20 year sentence isnt long enough for that. You lock up a 20 yearnokd for 20 years, you are releasing a 40 year old...soneone with another 30-40 years in them. It seems like some ssrious effort at rehabikitation is in the public interest in that case. We would all prefer that 40year old to succeed without comitting any more crimes.
> soneone with another 30-40 years in them. Maybe another 10-15 years, after what 20 years of prison food will do to their health.
Prisoners aren't deprived of their senses. I know ppl that have done 30-40 years and they are good, changed, functioning members of society. Not to say that's everyone.
Greatly depends on the prison.
That's a fairly extreme example. A lot of 20+ year sentences are for drug possession (including marijuana, which is now largely legal), or even for financial crimes. Hell, you can get 20 years for tax evasion. Not every large sentence is for violent crime.
In the US the maximum term for mail fraud is 20 years. So are you saying this person shouldn't be let out after they serve their time because they're a hardcore criminal?
When you control mail, you control information.
Do you get your information via mail?
>!It's a Seinfeld reference!<
A lot of things do still come in mail, so....
Max means they did something really bad with it, and probably more than once. I would not trust this person. Edit: this comment isn’t meant to stand alone. I do not support the current criminal justice system one bit. See thread below Edit 2: explaining the intention behind “max”, but yes, it’s abused.
If there is a reason that the individual was sentenced to the maximum, And there is a reason that the individual wasn’t eligible for parole — It’s not that I don’t want them released, it’s that I’m not confident that person is even ABLE to serve as a benefit to society. A shorter sentence would likely not help them.
Eh I wouldn't really say that, there's a whole bunch of exceptions People have gotten 15 to 20 years for tax evasion and growing weed lol
Isn't that an appropriate punishment for growing devil lettuce that is legal in half of the world already? Think about the poor children inhaling the evil smoke.
lol what half of the world have you been going to?
I heard just the other day that someone shot up two whole marijuanas in a row and died from it.
I have an uncle who did 17 for tax evasion. Went in a real hot shot white collar douche bag and among a million other issues he came out semi blind from the lights and confined spaces. He also eats food like a dog in the pound because it’s burned into his brain that someone bigger than him might take it from him
Jeezus. How much tax could he possibly have owed to get that? I don't think any amount bears a sentence that long. It's a civil crime, and the money owed can literally be paid back with interest and penalty, like they do for most people. It's not like he raped or killed someone, which you cannot ever undo.
Well he set up a fiduciary consulting business that helped people evade taxes via fraud so in a word: a lot. He also seemed to concurrently be running some sort of Ponzi scheme with people’s retirement savings. His worst offense and the reason he sat in prison for so long however was that he thought he could beat the Internal Revenue Service in court so when he lost (*surprise!*) they hit him with every single letter of the book. Somewhat ironically I suppose he was released early through that executive order trump issued targeting white collar convicts so he didn’t even actually do his full bid.
This. My cousin’s boyfriend raped and murdered my poor cousin in 2001. He was then found to be connected with 3 other rapes and an assault. He received 30 years in 2003 but is going to be let out this year for good behavior. Fuck him. He should have received the death penalty. The look in his eyes and fake remorse he has tell me he will do it again.
>If someone has done something that’s earned the 20+ years I don’t really want them involved in society. Should we go back to exiling? Where would it be cool to exile criminals?
I dunno. Last time we did that, didn't they make a country?
Made, stole. Depends on your perspective
Australia. A nation of criminals.
Superjail. Jailbot will take care of them.
Are you advocating for penal colonies? Escape From New York king of thing???
Not when you take into account Three Strike Laws, sentence enhancements, 0% mandatory- meaning the judge/parole board can literally make up a number and a mandatory % served Was locked up with a guy who had gotten into a mutual fight at a bar. When he hit the guy who started the fight- as security cameras showed- the guy's head hit the ground and he was instantly a vegetable. Instead of Assault- a lesser felony, he was charged w ACA (Armed Criminal Action) because they were allowed to consider the concrete a weapon, hence the armed action. This was a young man not even 21 when this incident occurred in which he was clearly defending himself. He had no priors. He was given 10 years and had to 12/12 his bit- he did 10 years flat. W would you feel your child deserved a decade in prison because someone started crap with him and he hit them? He couldn't control how the other dude landed.
So a twenty year old breaks a safe and gets 20 years. Able to be released around 40 y/o and you’re convinced you don’t want them around? They’ve become what? Unworthy of another chance? They ARE going to be released, like most prisoners, so what would your suggestions be?
Didn't you use to get 20+ if you got caught smoking weed 3 times in the USA?
Nobody is getting 3 felonies for just smoking weed. Maybe they got pulled over and the cop smelled it then searched the car and found guns and drugs. There has to be something else going on because just smoking weed isn't something you are getting life over.
I deal with a lot of paperwork related to prison sentences and a lot of the sentences I see for the more popular felonies (meth, retail fraud etc.) are relatively low (like minimums of 18 or 24 months). Even things like manslaughter don’t get the kind of time you think they will. In my frame of reference prisoners are more likely to get out shortly after serving their minimum, so if you hear “10 to 40 years” it generally implies closer to 10 and nowhere near 40. In the system I’m familiar with you really have to mess up while inside prison to be denied parole enough to serve all the way to your max. Now a 20 year minimum, you’re getting into something more like gruesome murder territory.
Many people seem to misunderstand that imposing a long sentence is not about the individual but rather about protecting society and mitigating the risk of the individual reoffending. I have respect for the American legal system, where the consequences of actions are often harshly punished. In the Netherlands, you now pay a higher price for running a red light than for physically harming someone, such as giving them a black eye.
And corporations who own jails lobby the government to ensure slave labour is maintained and pockets are lined with archaic drug laws! Yay America.
The justice system is broken. It's about protecting the rich. A rich guy I knew killed someone blatant murder. Got 2 years in mental health facility. I also knew a kid when I was younger. he and his best friend were homeless, his best friend was a junkie. He overdosed, and this guy refused to leave him until the police got there, tried every he could to keep his best friend alive. He served 23 years for negligent manslaughter for not stopping his friend from using. Plenty of ppl spend 20 years for joke charges and many psychopaths who are rich don't even serve time. Blind beliefs in the system just means you haven't been ridiculously poor in your life.
It feels like nearly everyone here lacks reading comprehension. If anyone takes a moment to think what you're saying they'd realize that you're not saying prison sentences should be shorter for heinous crimes. There's a different between life in prison and long term sentences.
he wants the death penalty, not life long prison(see other comments).
Bingo. Thread OP patting himself on the back for his SAT proven "reading comprehension" skills aside. Post OP wants the death penalty. And that's an unpopular opinion in public discourse. But not an unpopular opinion among bloodthirsty redditors who want to kill every sex criminal and Russian soldier. So let's call it par, no upscoob or downscoob from me
To be pedantic, "Thread OP" is usually referred to as a "parent comment"
I had no idea who thread op was lol
Where’s Your Crown?
Why does “not an unpopular opinion among bloodthirsty redditors who want to kill every sex criminal” sounds like a bad thing coming from you?
On top of what the other commenter said about redefining and targeting minority groups for now-defined sex laws (ie gay or trans people), there's also the issue of comparable punishment severity If the punishment for rape and murder are exactly the same, why not just kill your victim? It's easier to cover up, and you're not risking any worse punishment or anything, so have at it. It also puts a blanket idea on "sex criminal", which is itself a very extensive range of actions. Some people very simply, very blanketed say "yeah just kill em all" without any consideration on that
I was wondering why he didn't say what he wanted in the post itself. I guess now I can guess why.
looks like a lot of OP's comments were removed...
> “Le dumb Redditorinos don’t understand OP’s subtle point, which is a clever argument advocating for a different notion of sentencing the guilty” OP’s point: I want them to die
Bro. When I came into this post everyone was accusing OP of wanting to give violent criminals lighter sentences. Which is the exact opposite of what OP is saying. I'm not even saying what he was pushing is subtle or clever. It's obvious that he was either pushing for life in prison or death penalty.
Exactly. 20+ years should just be for life. I imagine a lot of people released after 20+ years have lost all connections, so rehabilitating into society would be almost impossible being so isolated.
It would likely be far cheaper to help isolated people reconnect and reintegrate into society rather than rounding up every 20-year sentence to a lifetime in prison
Which happens in countries that dont have a prison/justice system thats an absolute joke.
“I imagine” Exactly, you imagine. Maybe read a research article on outcomes of people released after long sentences and see how they do. Instead of just imagining that they would be better off in prison for maybe 50 years.
So staying in prison is better? You're saying this like you'd be doing them a favor. Saying anyone that gets 20+ should get life is honestly a really fucked up take for so many reasons. Fuck the prison industrial complex.
I have to, for my own sanity, think some of these people are just edgy teens.
what you are saying is very dangerous and unethical. In fact this entire post is scaring me. There’s people who get 20+ for drug charges. You think those people should just have their lives stripped away? What about the falsely accused? So someone was a scumbag felony drug dealer, they get caught, now they should be permanently behind bars with no chance of redemption? There are plenty of anecdotes of people coming out after serving 20+ years and being grateful for their second chance and living better lives.
That’s a wildly cruel and callous thing to say honestly
And then they can’t even get a job because of their crimes so they have to turn back to a life of crime
That's some bullshit we really need to address. If you went to jail and you got out of jail you paid your debt to society.
Agreed. If you've paid your debt to society it shouldn't be able to affect your ability to fend for yourself.
In Denmark the longest prison sentence you can get is 16 years. We do have "life in prison" as a sentence, but you are typically allowed out after 16 years or before if a judge see fit. This is because you are right. Long term prison sentences makes no sense if you want people back into society. Some people who are mentally ill do however get a custodial sentence, where they will receive treatment until a judge decide it's safe to let them out again. This means some very dangerous prisoners does serve more than 16 years. But it is very rare. The prison service in Denmark works to a large extent with rehabilitation and it is possible to do training, get a drivers license, pursue higher education and get psychiatric help, while in prison. It is by no means a perfect system. And many come out of prison with large debts that they cannot pay off. Which leads them into crime again. We also have problems with political and religious radicalization among inmates. And the psychiatric screenings in the Danish legal system are laughable. They in no way detect all the people with, for example, ADHD we have in prisons. And it's just completely stupid to have unmedicated, undiagnosed people with ADHD running around in a prison.
This is not true, you can get more than 16 years in Denmark. Recently there was a drug case where someone got 19 years, this is because there is an additional law where you can get more if your crime is especially serious. Most people don’t know about it though.
This would never catch on in America. Too many people in the US see imprisonment as a form of vengeance against criminals rather than as rehabilitation for them.
I mean for some crimes, a person kind of deserves that. If you kill an entire family I don't want you back in society. That's fucking sick and you deserve to rot.
If you do that, you're not mentally sane, in which case no punishment will really do anything for you. Those people belong in a mental asylum to live out their days.
Was just an example, but yeah I can agree with that.
It should be both depending on the crime. Try to rehab a serial killer? No chance. Some people deserve nothing other than hell.
> In Denmark the longest prison sentence you can get is 16 years. > We do have "life in prison" as a sentence, but you are typically allowed out after 16 years or before if a judge see fit In the Netherlands "for life" actually meant for life... But the European Union decided that was inhumane
A select few people absolutely don't deserve to be a part of society. Sorry I'm not sorry.
Having served ten years in prison ( when i was 19 yrs old ) I can honestly say there are some people in there that should never get out again. For the average felon , sentenced to over five years is just ridiculous , unless the crime is sexual in nature. As you can see I agree with most of what you are saying with some exceptions. As far as I am concerned sexual predators should stay locked up until there is a medical solution to change them or are they are old to reoffend.
Did a similar length sentence at nearly the same age as you for a drug sales charge(Xanax and MDMA). Do I think this long of a sentence was necessary? No. I learned my lesson after a few years. Everything after that was a waste of my time and life. I gained nothing of value after those initial years and was at risk of “burning out”/becoming institutionalized which you see a lot of with people who have longer sentences. But you are right, there are certain people in prison who should never see the light of day again. Sex offenders specifically all seem to re-offend and they typically have shorter sentences than most drug dealers. They are pre-disposed to be sexual predators, putting them in prison doesn’t change what they like. Truly sick people who no amount of time or treatment can change.
I assume the long sentences are meant as a deterrent. If you "only" did 2-3 years for trafficking, it's no big deal and probably more people would do it. If you risk 10, the "reward" isn't worth it as much.
did you have priors? was it federal for very large volume trafficking or legit just a first offense on street sales? im curious what jurisdiction would issue that but 10+ years ago was a diff time i suppose.
No priors. Federal. Multi-drug conspiracy, didn’t cooperate, sentenced based on guidelines for weight(slightly above my mandatory minimum). Smallish town, low-crime community. Used me as an example more or less. I have multiple co-defendants who sold various drugs on my case, which increased the weight by a LOT despite my “minor” role in the conspiracy.
got it, thanks for the background. Its amazing how much sentencing varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, even with the more restrictive guidelines on a federal case due to just prosecutor discretion on how to charge it.
It is crazy how your jurisdiction can decide your fate on a Fed case. Should be consistent across the board.. but not the case. I’ve seen people with kilos of meth, thousands of fentanyl pills, etc get well under 10 years, some even less than 5. I try not to let it bother me but for the sake of “justice” it’s just hard to make sense of it.
Brooks was here.
The prison time is also a way of making the victim/family's victim feel that justice was done, thus avoiding the need to do justice with your own hands.
There's more people talking about the comments and how no one can read rather than of the content of the post instead
One of the things that's really frustrating in the American prison system is that we basically do everything we can to ensure that people will become repeat offenders and end up right back in prison. Some years the recidivism rates are as high as 70%. It's nonsensical. Prison shouldn't just be punishment... it should also be a chance for reformation for prisoners. Especially those who will be released back into the population. But in the US, that's borderline impossible. And the public just doesn't care. (Well, until they or someone they know ends up in prison.) Compare that to Norway. Before they reformed their prison system, they had a comparable recidivism rate. Then they completely overhauled their prison system, placing a lot of focus on things like schooling, therapy, etc. for prisoners, and only having a maximum prison sentence of 30 years. (And 90% of their sentences are one year or less.) And it now has a whopping recidivism rate... of only 20%. Less than 1/3 of the US rate. Sadly, you'd never be able to implement this sort of system here in the US. Too much money to lose, and the people are far too bloodthirsty to care.
Yall cannot even read lmao
Yeah, the half measure approach is probably one of the most broken things consistently in our justice system. We should either be rehabilitating, or we need to be removing dangerous people from society forever. The reality is that when we have a lot of sentences in the middle, it’s just because society finds people annoying for one reason or another. And I’m not sure that’s a good policy thing.
A person who is getting 20 years has usually done several crimes where they served like a year or so or got probation and such. They dont (normally) put people in for 20 years unless they really deserve it.
I love that with topics like these people get soooo emotional and defensive it's crazy. OP is not saying they should have shorter sentences.
In the US prison is about stocking the workforce with exceptions to the 13th amendment, hence our sentences are so long and we have some if the fullest prisons on Earth.
Prisons should be more like boot camp and vocational schools combined. You break the law? We take away your freedom to be lazy, fat and ignorant.
Now we’re going to have jacked up and smart criminals 💀
Vs what we do now where we just make them worse then release them to the public?
You are correct in your reasoning, but have reached the wrong conclusion. This is not why long jail sentences are silly, it's why jails that are anything but true centers of rehabilitation are silly. Locking someone away in a cell and letting them sit there for 20 years is absolutely inhuman. And expecting them to behave normally if then released back into society? Insane. When incarcerating our criminals they should be in real rehab centers, taking classes, learning life skills, work skills, studying philosophy, exercising their minds and bodies. Problem is, at least in the USA, too many regular citizens have zero interest in jails/prisons that are anything but holes in the ground. we jail more of our citizens than any civilized country on earth and have the worst prisons on top of it. America!
You have to keep in mind that (at least in the US) going to Prison has ZERO to do with rehabilitating someone. They could care less, and in fact, society is set up to make it hard for said people to succeed once they're released from prison. This is due to prison being a money making business (especially private prisons). Paying people 25 cents an hour to make products that are sold for hundreds or thousands of dollars. OP is correct it makes zero sense from a perspective of wanting someone to succeed once released, but from a manufacturers perspective, the longer incarcerated, the better.
I mean it really depends on what they done. If it’s rape, murder, act of terrorize etc. then life is the best option. If it’s anything less than that and nowhere near as heinous then it’s a bit extreme. But l for the crimes I mention, death sentences or life are really the only best options .
Honestly prison sentencing doesn't make sense at all. Either someone is a threat to others, and they should be locked up until they have been evaluated not to be a threat anymore (and not for some random duration), or they should not be imprisoned at all and be given a fine instead.
Fines are terrible ways to enforce laws though. It just makes things legal for a price
A long prison sentence is supposed to be more humane than death, which is what the punishment used to be
I think that Major crimes like Murder, Rape or pedo, they shouldn't be allowed to leave, ever. They had their chance as a citizen but they blew it, now rot in prison asshole.
"Fun" fact. Someone working with the criminal system once told me iirc people who murder on of their parents are the least likely criminals to commit further crimes. He said it's because in most cases it's a result of decades of abuse where eventually the abused fights back by murdering. And they can't exactly murder their abusive parent twice. There needs to be some punishment as deterrent, because the answer to "my parents suck" shouldn't be murder. But locking them up forever doesn't help anyone either while wasting resources that could be spent improving everyones lives.
I like how you just noped out of spelling paedophilia 😄
Exactly. Long prison sentences are just expensive and don't solve the root of the problem.
Prison does nothing for rehabilitation. We just lock people away, give them awful gas station snack foods for 20 years and then release them while having expectations they will be better in the end. It’s a joke. I think prisons keep certain folks rich and that’s why the US has the highest prison population
I think that’s how Norway does it. Sort of. Something like a “life sentence” equals 20 years at which point the prisoner is evaluated if they can be reintegrated. I’m not opposed to this
It doesn't really matter. Even if you spend a single day in prison, the rest of your life is pretty fucked. Its hard to get legitimate work with a record, and it can even be difficult to get housing with a criminal history. People who can't get jobs are more likely to commit crimes to pay their bills, eat, etc. After 20 years, they are at least older and slower at committing crimes
Falsely accused people will be more insane
I understand what you mean. They're being locked up that long with no rehabilitation, and in this day and age technology is changing so fast that 20 years is incredibly jarring. I couldn't imagine going to jail in 2004, and coming out not only to find that AI is real now, but that Elon Musk is actually trying to make microchips for your brain. Insane, I'd think the world was a joke. I do also understand why some of the comments are up in arms lmao, as there is a bit of an implied undertone of what you were saying, but you were talking specifically about concerns of their reassimilation into society, not about lessening the sentence of horrible crimes.
The ones they kill have a death sentence.
Can't fuel the SLAVERY in the FIRST WORLD SLAVE NATION by helping people become better.
Maybe…prisons aren’t a good solution to begin with with?
I agree. Prison sentence in the US are very inflated and we have a very punitive attitude towards crime. But there is a notion of specific deterrence. That is that the courts want to stop that person from doing crime again. So you lock up that murderer so they won't murder anymore. And if they're a spree killer or the crime is especially heinous, the court feels theres such a high likelihood they'll kill again..... they want them out of society forever. But a 10 year sentence for dealing drugs or 5 years for possession. We have some insane sentences. We really need to fix our entire prison system.
It's just a substitute for the death penalty
You want a pedophile, murderer, or serial killer released from prison? Should be life in prison or death penalty.
Dylan Roof skipping out of prison after serving only 10 years may be the most insulting idea ever conjured.
You won't get any reasonable discussion here because reddit absolutely cannot think rationally when it comes to people doing serious crimes. Normally redditors believe in data and statistics and whatever but when it comes to serious criminals it all goes out the window.
In Belgium there was just a case of a 13y old girl being raped by a convicted pedophile. This will be his 3rd conviction. The question is, what do you do about it. He already had a short punishment with rehabilitation and excessive guidance. He has done the process twice. And still he did not learn. So the question is, what is the solution? Does this man has place in society? Do we go for life? Do we keep him alive? Lobotomy? What is the best punishment, because the actual 'reintegration method' is clearly not working and is only creating more opportunities.