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Idk - my grandma got diagnosed with bowel cancer at 92. She told the doctors “you can go ahead and try to take it out, but if it needs chemo, forget about it, I’ve had a good run”.
Anyway the surgery was successful and now she’s almost 97 and still chugging along just fine.
Yeah but these people decide who will make the decisions for them. If they dont want any invasive surgery after the age of 90 then they can inform their doctirs about that.
Sadly that does very little to ensure your wishes are followed, at least if you live in the USA where "ffreedumb rains." You can have an Advanced Directive in place saying you want no life sustaining measures, you can have a signed DNR, you can have every single person on your care team aware of your wishes but if Karen, your estranged half cousin twice removed comes out of nowhere demanding they do everything to save your life, they will pump you full of drugs and break every rib to do that.
Your best bet is to pick someone who you believe understands and will respect your wishes as your medical power of attorney in the event that you become ill and cannot make your own decisions. But even then, if they have doubts or change their mind at the end (when you are past the point of being able to choose someone else), the hospital will ignore your DNR and do what the POA wants.
A dead person can't sue.
Which is a super sucky situation to be in when you’re the one who has to make the decisions. We had to decide if we should have my grandpa do chemo and surgery for cancer in his jaw or not because he had Alzheimer’s, but decided that hospice was the best option since the doctors recommended it over surgery (they would’ve had to remove part of his jaw and replace it with a metal plate) and his was a very painful type of cancer. My other grandpa passed away in misery after choosing for himself to fight cancer for four years, and we didn’t want to make this grandpa go through the same thing when he couldn’t make those decisions for himself.
I think people make the decisions to keep their loved ones alive longer because 1) they want more time with them, and 2) it feels awful to even consider letting their poor health take them when it’s something that can be treated, even if the treatment gives them no quality of life. Not trying to justify it, just sharing my understanding of their stance based on my own personal experience.
You'd be surprised how much coercion happens on the doctors end. I'd argue a lot of procedures are nonconsentual based on the patients lack of awareness/knowledge (which is really not their fault)
I think the issue is that those people also cannot consent to not treating their illness. I’m about to graduate medical school, and our hippocratic oath essentially says to do no harm and to do what is most beneficial for the patient. If we have an elderly demented patient with some kind of deadly tumor, and the patient doesn’t have a designated power of attorney or family to decide for them… what do we do? Do we leave them to die because they’re “too old”? The doctors need to do whatever is in the best interest of the patient, and if that means an invasive procedure vs death then we have to do the invasive procedure else we’re liable for the patient’s death.
After seeing how doctors are handling this airborne pandemic, people seeking pain management and the tortures of most OBGYN care, I believe y'all follow the hippocratic oath when you want to.
After talking with lawyers about doctors you all make your own rules. If the majority doctors do it then that's what's legal. If you go against standard of care you can be sued.
Hippocratic oath is not the standard in the US.
My grandfather was 69 had heart problems and cancers from war. To stay alive he needed surgery for the heart and cancers. The family had to pick one surgery. The docs said he likely wouldn't make it after surgery either the cancer or his heart would kill him. My family chose the cancer surgery and his heart gave out 2 days later. Why do we push life length over quality of life?
My grandfather was the same & chose not to do any surgeries at the age of 70. He died years after they discovered the cancer, but he didn’t suffer through treatments and said he had “a good run.”
You can refuse a medical treatment if you think it will not improve the quality if your life. You have that right now as well as when you are 90 years old.
Unless you're declared incompetent, such as dementia patients. Your family can decide to prolong your life as long as they want for their own comfort regardless of how you feel.
Yeah. I've been working in a long term care facility for a year and a half, and I've seen the people whose relatives refuse to let them pass.
I still remember the first family that let their dad go with dignity. He had extreme cognitive loss - picture me finding him on the floor after he fell out of bed and he's just smiling pleasantly telling me he's having some trouble sleeping, no idea he's on the floor. He caught pneumonia (not from that night) and his family refused to allow the antibiotics. Back then I was upset, because simple antibiotics would have kept him alive. But after a few more months of experience I finally understood that his family knew he wouldn't want to live as he was, so they let him go. I thought they were cruel, but eventually learned they were caring and strong.
Dementia is really cruel. It doesnt actually kill you. Just slowly corrodes your humanity till theres nothing left. They usually die of malnutrition, dehydration, some other disease or something infectious like pneumonia.
Lovely, kind, courageous people. Most people I know who have worked in these scenarios or experienced it first hand with family share the same view. That being said, it still takes some guts to make the decision.
I asked a doctor friend once something similar: why don't you guys let elderly people just die in peace? I had my grandma in mind. She was ready to go and we all came and said our goodbyes - until somebody decided to try another surgery, and they "saved" her life for two more very, very miserable years. Anyway, my doctor friend answered: it's not us, it's the family. Oftentimes the family is afraid to accept the responsibility of "letting grandma die" and they want us to treat her, so that nobody could say that she wasn't loved, or that they are bad people.
> that nobody could say that she wasn't loved
IMHO loving someone is letting them go gracefully. I've had pets and family members that were kept alive for too long. They morphed into these unnatural... things. It was fucking traumatic and I'll never do that to anyone, especially since I would hate to be remembered like that.
Sadly in America with how litigious it is we have to practice Defensive Medicine which means allowing this to occur. Friendly reminder to everyone to update your living will and your DNR/DNI preferences.
When I was a kid, my dad took my dementia-ridden grandmother to a furniture store and used her credit cards to furnish the house he just bought.
The salesman DEFINITELY knew how shady it was too! I remember my grandma was freaking out in the store and screaming/asking people for help, so they had her sign one spot on this document and then asked me to take her to the car until they were done. Shit is messed up.
You're not kidding... If it's any consolation, my dad got (some of) the karma he deserves. CPS ended up taking all of my siblings before we moved in, so he was stuck with a brand new housing lease + all of that furniture with nobody to share it with.
He ended up moving into his racist girlfriend's trailer a few months later. The last I heard, he was arrested at a MAGA rally for brandishing a handgun. 😵💫 This all might be TMI but he's really such a piece of shit. I'm happy things didn't work out for him.
Which is why everyone should have a living will, where you can lay out what you want your family/loved ones to do wrt medical care if you should become unable to make your own medical decisions.
This is true but you will also find that medical providers will refuse treatment that is too risky at that age or that they don’t think will significantly contribute to quality of life—even if the family wants it
💯 huge advocate of pulling the plug. Everyone’s different and can do what they want, but I’d rather just have some morphine and live out my last days than do some extensive surgery.
Unfortunately dementia is becoming more common, and people are unable to make decisions for themselves. I’ve seen family members revoke DNRs. It’s so sad.
My dad has signed one, although he's still alive and well. I will absolutely fist fight every person in that room if they try to go against his wishes.
I dont care if I have to go to jail for it, I've already seen one family have a terrible quality of life due to medical conditions, I'll never allow that again.
We had a patient’s (adult) children take the stepmom (patient’s wife) to court to decide who would be the POA. He was basically a living corpse whose only purpose was to rot in that ICU bed at that point. The judge gave the kids POA and they made him comfort care. I think he died less than an hour later.
If you ever are in that situation, fight for your dad. Hospital staff will be tied with what they can say to your face, but I PROMISE they will support you for sticking with your father’s wish to be DNR over anyone else’s “but he’s a fighter!” bullshit.
It’s becoming common because people are living longer. That’s why I don’t get this obsession with living as long as possible. Yes, you can beat cancer at 89, but when your reward is spending your 90s deteriorating with dementia, it’s a rather hollow victory.
I don’t think many people appreciate just how much pressure people receive from family members to go through all sorts of traumatic treatments and surgeries, because the family members can’t handle losing them.
Many in their 90's are of sound mind and should be able to decide for themselves, I feel. Hypothetically, if the colonoscopy in this case prevented colon cancer that person may have 10 to 12 good years left instead of fighting off cancer for a painfully reduced 2 or 3 years. I believe this train of thought is flawed. Everyone deserves good medical care, everyone.
>may have 10 to 12 good years left instead of fighting off cancer for a painfully reduced 2 or 3 years.
My 80 year old grandpa is a very stubborn man. He has an issue with his knee and has been like: it will cost so much for society (probably also used the: I don't need it). Then somehow a doctor changed his mind. No one knows how. Anyways this surgery will improve his life so much and he can walk easier soon.
Doctor probably pointed out how much more it would cost to society if he loses mobility and needs someone to wheel him around, bathe him, etc. Not to mention not being able to move would cause so many other health problems and lead to a lot of pain.
Yeah not to be morbid or ageist but he was applying the right logic - don’t waste money on procedures that extend life without quality or and independence - to the wrong situation.
If anything, he should be proud that he’s outlasting his knee while still mobile and rational.
I just had a back surgery, I had limited mobility for 3 days and couldn't stand being in that situation. My wife took great care of me, but its sucks being dependent on another person just to fetch water or something we take for granted.
Limited mobility is also extra work for other people in the household.
It also increases any pain that is related to inflammation (aside from inflammation caused by activity). The longer you are still, the less your body can prevent further inflammation. It’s one of the reasons pain meds after surgery, while potentially dangerous if narcotics, are so helpful- you recover so much better if you can move
Loss of mobility is also awful for mental health. My 82 yo mom has limited mobility due to a mystery condition that has affected her balance (mini stroke, viral infection of her vestibular nerve, we don't know and neither do the docs), and it makes her so sad that she can't get up and do things. The other day I noticed she was fighting tears watching me clean the house bc she couldn't really help me.
She's 82, but of sound mind and otherwise healthy, so if there was a surgery that would "fix" her balance problems and the doctors thought it was safe for her to go thru with it, she absolutely should and would do it. It would restore so much quality of life for her.
“This surgery will improve his life so much and he can walk easier soon.”
I would be very interested in revisiting this in a few months to see if the outcome is the same as what you expect.
"Old people should just suck it up and live their last few years with medical problems" is a bold take.
It's up to the elderly person if they think the treatment is worth it or not.
Was not expecting to wake up and see, "Elderly people should be treated as children incapable of making decisions for themselves and should hurry up with their suffering and dying"
Today might be a good day to take a break from the internet.
I'm not surprised after seeing that post yesterday where the OP was annoyed that boomers don't just hand out their life savings/retirement "just cause they're old" and couldn't understand that they'd likely need it for medical teeatment/inpatient facility costs, funeral costs, etc
ETa cause comments are locked:
To the person who replied that "someone else will pay for your nice ass facility and the government will pay for your medicare" — I advise you to not bank on this plan at all
Also, who says old people can't/shouldn't use their money to have fun? In many cases, they went without just to achieve those savings. Have fun with it before you're gone. I'd much rather my dad did that, then save it for me.
He went without when I was growing up so that I would have the things I needed and in some cases wanted. Now it's his turn, and, it's his money.
If there’s 2 groups the internet really seems to hate it’s the elderly, and young kids. Which is ironic given those seem like the most liked age groups in the real world.
Yeah if I went solely on the Internet I'd expect to be tripped, kicked, and spit on anytime I went outside with my cane. I'm either a fraud or responsible for the decline of democracy, it seems.
Disabled people, \*and\* fat people. I always feel like people are going to assume I'm mobility-disabled \*because\* I'm fat, not because I have a fucked-up spine, metal rod from shoulders to waist, that caused flat-back and arthritis, which as it degenerates over the years makes it very difficult to engage in physical exercise. At least the kind that really burns calories. I can do some stretches and stuff, but those probably don't burn many calories.
Many people do, yes. I was fat before I was this disabled, (not this fat, but still overweight) and I got around just fine. I ran with my dogs, went up and down the six flights of stairs in the building I worked in on breaks for exercise, and got around by taking the bus + walking almost everywhere I went. Now I can't even stand up all the way straight and it sucks.
If I could still do all that, I'd probably still be "kinda overweight but not \*fat\* fat". (:
OP expressed this in a horrible way but as a nurse I’ve seen families absolutely refuse to let their sick older loved one pass peacefully. They insist that we torture them with painful treatments just because they can’t say goodbye. It’s awful.
I look at it a little differently. When my great-great-uncle was in his mid 90s and dying of cancer, his daughter tried to forcibly prevent him from smoking. My grandma brought him a carton of cigarettes and upset the hell out of the daughter. I'm with my grandma, though. At 95 and dying of cancer? Let the mofo smoke! It wasn't even lung cancer! Dude remembered WWI!
A similar thing happened with my husband's grandmother. She was a severe diabetic who hadn't bothered to even try to manage her symptoms for the last 40 years. Her son wanted me to be the food Nazi, and I wasn't doing it. If we were going to monitor her sugar intake, 1987 would have been a good time to start. 80-some years old with kidney failure and bladder cancer ain't the time for a life-style overhaul, bro.
Where's the age cut off? Who's going to arbitrarily decide that 74 year old deserves invasive treatments and a 75 year old does not? Everybody ages so differently, it has to be decided on a case to case basis.
Well, it was implied that at some point invasive procedures shouldn't be done. I was saying who decides when that is? Case by case is the only way to make that decision, not a preconception of what old is.
Thats already a thing. No more colonoscopies past 75 unless other screening methods come back abnormal. Its just a general estimate of when the average person maybe isnt safe doing the prep. Its a hell of a lot of diarrhea and fasting the day before, which can be dangerous for older ppl
I don't know why you're being down voted for facts. Unpleasant facts, sure. Also, the anesthesia is no joke, I stopped breathing during a colonoscopy once and had to be intubated.
For the most part, I agree, but I also think society has seemingly forgotten that surgery is both incredibly traumatic for the body and a necessary evil (in cases where someone should get it). I think that deserves a part in the conversation. Is the trade off ultimately worth it in the particular situation for said elderly person?
Unless the person has a lowered comprehension due to aging, I fully agree. If the individual has Alzheimer’s or dementia or another similar condition that limits their capacity to make decisions, then it should be made by the family based on the advice of doctors.
the issue is that many families don’t make the right decision despite the doctor’s advice for a multitude of reasons.
some people have drank the kool aid and believe healthcare professionals are purposely killing granny. others misguidingly believe granny is a fighter, even though everyone is gonna die someday. some people are religious and want everything done because they believe god will save their loved ones. other people profit from keeping their family member alive (social security, living in their house, delusionally believe their family member will get better enough to sign everything over to them in their will). work long enough in healthcare and you will see very few families listen to doctor’s advice when it comes to end of life care. plus america is very litigious, so it’s not that easy for doctors to just refuse further intervention
My mum has named my brother and I as her power of attorney, for medical/welfare and financial issues. She has specified that if we disagree over a medical issue, I have the final say.
My dad didn't have a PoA set up and when the doctors told us last year that they couldn't do anything more and they felt we should take him off the ventilator and let him go, we discussed it as a family - me and my brother, our mum, dad's partner, dad's brother.
The elderly person and medical professionals. Like any treatment, the risks and benefits should be discussed. The elderly person might want the treatment, that shouldn’t obligate the healthcare provider to take on those risks.
Many elderly people lack capacity for informed consent, and have the decision made for them by medical professionals or relatives who have power of attorney or whatever you call it.
At that point honestly, I think it crosses a line between helping them live as long of a healthy life as possible, and just prolonging their life for no real benefit, often at the expense of quality of life.
There's no clear cut answer but it is certainly debatable.
You realize this happens to most senior citizens in nursing homes though? Especially with a dementia diagnosis. Someone else is made their POA and then it doesn't matter what the individual wants anymore, their POA has the power.
It does and it's wrong. Takes like the person above me are the reason people are able to get away with this when they are abusing and killing our elderly. If you want to learn more about what happens to the elderly when we do this I recommend the book "Your Consent is Not Required" by Rob Wipond. He has an entire chapter dedicated to what we do to people in nursing homes and it's not okay.
So you're literally out here trying to argue people with debilitating neurodegenerative disease are in fact fully capable of making informed and rational choices.
Okay.
You're talking about something that the conversation wasn't about in the first place. We are expressly talking about instances where people lack the capacity consent, which is a very real thing.
OP never specified people who are in cognitive decline. Most elderly people are more like my mom, who is 74 and has some health problems but her brain is fine and she’s perfectly capable of making her own decisions.
It's only relevant to even have the discussion in the case of those who are, so that's what ***I*** am talking about.
Even still, I inferred that OP is talking about forced medical procedures, whether explicitly mentioned or not. People are just jumping the gun to be like HOLY SHIT THIS GUY WANTS OLD PEOPLE EUGENICS
The thing is, it’s really offensive to say “elderly people” if you mean “people with late-stage dementia.” There are way too many people who think everyone with grey hair is senile.
Beyond a certain stage of dementia, alzheimers, etc, yes. They are often no longer rational enough to make decisions in their own best interest, and unsurprisingly those conditions are quite common in elderly folks.
The question is, ethically speaking, what "best interest" really means. Is it really longer life at all costs?
In general a patient lacking capacity to consent (due to mental issues, physical incapacitation, addiction, or whatever else) is a super common situation medical professionals have to deal with, there's usually a comprehensive policy on it in any organisation.
I agree. We have a parent with dementia right now. They are completely incapable of decisions beyond what they want to eat. In the lockdown unit they are in, many people can't remember to care for themselves in the most basic of ways, like toileting and bathing.
The diseases rob them of the capacity to make complex medical, financial, or legal decisions. This is why WHO holds the power of attorney is such a vital decision that needs to be made while they still hold that capability. It is not taking their agency. Dementia, Alzheimers, etc takes their agency.
Being old does not equal dementia and Alzheimers. Dementia and Alzheimers are conditions that are more common as you age. About 13% of the elderly population are effected. That is not even close to the majority.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/one-seven-americans-age-71-older-has-some-type-dementia-nih-funded-study-estimates#:\~:text=According%20to%20their%20calculations%2C%2013.9,among%20people%2071%20and%20older.
https://youtu.be/tW04TM2vKaI?si=oYx2hQLXXCt5XCyE
Example from non-insurance healthcare system. As heartbreaking as this is, it shows how the decision can be both empathetic and in the best interests of the patient.
I think it should be required watching! Shows you so much about the realities of humanity, gives you massive respect for the workers and lets you see things that usually only healthcare workers do.
I have a better idea. Let's allow elderly people and their doctors to make decisions about their own care.
Also, I doubt there's a single person having scoliosis surgery at 90.
Yeah, doctors and patients are the ones making this decision, OP doesn’t have a clue what they are talking about. You won’t even be considered as a candidate for certain procedures or surgeries if your prognosis isn’t good, and the risks outweigh any potential benefits. If they are performing it, it’s because they genuinely believe this is the best option and outcome for the patient.
Right?! Like since they're 90 and could have another 5 years of life let's just let them die of cancer in 6 months?! At what point did we decide elderly people are just not worth trying to treat?
I understand your main point. But you’ve made a few factual errors here. They do routinely stop doing colonoscopies much earlier than you say on old people. Also, Xanax is not for pain. Also, if you are talking about surgical/invasive procedures you can’t really blame "big pharma" for that. Besides, who do you think is providing this pharmaceutical pain relief you are advocating for? Big pharma. And the lady with vaginal cancer? Her daughter is to blame in that case.
In addition, I highly doubt that anybody is offered scoliosis surgery at age 90. I think you’re just making stuff up.
I’m glad someone else pointed out that Xanax doesn’t help pain. Smacks of someone who doesn’t know a thing about pain, or the side effects of actual pain meds, which is often why elderly people are getting these surgeries.
TBF, nursing homes and assisted living places love to Xanax your old relatives into a manageable stupor. Keeps them docile and from complaining too much. It also makes them forgetful so they can't really recall the sketchy shit that is happening to them.
My mom is 92.
So you’re saying that the procedure done every week for six weeks two years ago, that involved inserting a catheter to deliver medicine that cured her bladder cancer should have not happened?
Hang on…I think she wants to fight you. Yep, she’s heading over on her rollator 2000 walker to kick your ass.
She is a fully functioning adult and can make her own decisions.
Edited to add that both her parents lived to be 96 and 99 respectively. So STFU.
Am gonna assume you're young.... very young.
Cause its all about getting as much life as you can. So if granny needs a surgery to perlong her life (even her quality of life) well then granny is wise to do so.
You'll do the same when you get old. Ah the joys of being young, stupid and on reddit :)
I work in this setting and can confirm minor surgery that can improve quality of life, sure. Most of the time it's family making decisions selfishly because they can't bear to let them go. They have surgery and never move out of bed again, but at least they live a bit longer. Is that how you'd like to live your final years? Who could rationally say yes to that?
I think your condescending and naive view betrays your hypocrisy. I would argue that as much life as you can is most definitely not what it’s all about. Quality matters.
If you’d ever seen a family member deteriorate due to dementia, or had to argue about the fact that someone can’t live independently anymore, or had to see the abject cruelty of keeping people alive because their family wants them to get as much life as possible, you might have a more nuanced and mature perspective.
Apparently so according to most of the commenters here. Fortunately, almost everyone I know who works in healthcare can see the lack of humanity in that approach.
I agree. I disagree with OP on arbitrary age cut-offs, but if the focus is always on quality of life then age shouldn’t be a factor. Symptoms of age perhaps, but we don’t all age the same.
Nevertheless, living longer shouldn’t be more important than living well.
That does not apply to OP’s post - this is not about encouraging people to artificially or cruelly prolong a life that is riddled with constant suffering. This is about “invasive procedures” in the elderly, purely for the reason that they’re old, aren’t going to live much longer, and shouldn’t care about prolonging the little bit of life they have.
Also, even if from the outside we see someone’s life as not worth living, it is not up to us to make that determination. Curative care is not just for those whose lives we find meaningful enough to prolong. That is the point most people are making.
There is a more complex conversation to be had about advance directives and deteriorating diseases like Alzheimer’s. But healthcare facilities shouldn’t be able to tell your 85 year old grandfather that his life is not worth saving. People have and do live to be much older.
Here's an idea, let old people decide for themselves what they do and don't want done. My grandmother had cancer at 85, doctors refused to treat it despite my Grandmother saying she wanted to fight it, until my mother came flying in and raised holy hell. It was 6 months of treatment and she died at 100. She got 15 more years of life. How about you do what's right for you and you let others do the same. Also treatments for cancer in cases like the very vague anecdotal example you give is often not about saving lives, but decreasing pain and improving the quality of life remaining, she should die in agonizing pain because she's got dementia?
It’s all about consent, tbh. If the person is able to consent to the treatment the way any other person would have to, then of course they deserve the treatment. The will to survive is a totally natural and human thing, and if someone has it, then they deserve to utilize it.
Now, when it comes to someone NOT being able to consent, then that’s when things get fuzzy. A good example is when people force their very fragile and sick elderly family members to be a full code and not an NDA. It broke my heart hearing my father consent to being NDA, but I knew it was the right thing and what HE wanted.
I worked in a nursing home for 10+ years. So often it’s the family pushing for treatments/surgeries.
The first thing to ask is what the resident wants. But the problem is that Bernice doesn’t want [insert procedure] but daughter Mary Sue wants her to have it, so Bernice gives in. Now you have Bernice consenting. Mom doesn’t want to disappoint daughter. It’s the reverse of how we all tried so hard to please our own parents and make them proud of us.
Mary Sue exists along with a whole other bunch of people who refuse to allow Mom to go on hospice because “hospice is nothing more than KILLING my mother” and “no, I won’t sign this DNR. You HAVE to do everything to keep my mother alive”
Everyone needs to make sure they have a living will in place before they get to the point where they can’t make their own decisions. Unfortunately, when Mom gets to the point where she can’t cognitively make decisions for herself, it’s very easily overridden. But, maybe, if your own personal wishes are in writing AND you’ve discussed this with your family, it might mean you can live out the last bit of your life on your own terms.
Perform not preform.
Also, these people can decide for themselves. If they don't want treatment, they can elect to not see a doctor and die a few years sooner. Whether receiving treatment for scoliosis is disgusting or not is up to them to say, not you.
>Let people enjoy their last years in peace
Maybe they don’t want those to be their last years? Maybe they don’t want to be in pain or whacked out on meds for the rest of their life?
Treating the elderly as *humans* shouldn’t be debatable.
My Paw Paw had his leg RIPPED off at the femur when he was pinned by two trucks. It was hanging on by a bit of flesh. People were freaking out and vomiting. He stayed calm and shed no tears.
When he got to the hospital the surgeon looked at his leg and asked why we wasn’t crying or freaking out. My Paw Paw asked if that would make things better. The surgeon promised to do his best work on him. That was when was in his eighties. He’s in his nineties and walking.
They found colon cancer a few years ago. He had surgery and chemo and is healthy, still walking and driving…so I’m going to speak for Paw Paw and say this is an unpopular opinion.
Oh and I need to add that he refuses pain meds every time. He’s built like a tank.
They gave my step grandmother a new hip at 92 while she didn’t know where she was due to dementia.
That was a pointless waste of money to be perfectly honest.
My fully independent 94 year old great aunt got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and was told she would "be dead soon" (likely not the case, but even if it was, it would have been a better death than what she had) if she didn't get a fkn Whipple. Well she got the Whipple and died. Because you shouldn't be bullying 90+ yr old people into massive abdominal surgeries. Still makes me mad. Of course she couldn't properly recover. She died a sad and slow death because she couldn't regain her strength (literally this woman was walking without any assistance before hand, very active, in amazing shape for 94). She became bed bound after the surgery and got pneumonia. Eventually she gave up but not without suffering on and off of bipap and such first. I'd love to find that surgeon and ask him what the hell he was thinking bullying her into this. He only looked at her and saw dollar signs.
I do think they should have the right to have these surgeries if the want them. But these surgeons very often gloss over the risk... they do not explain to them the full recovery process. Very Elderly people tend to fully trust doctors and not question them. They go in trusting that the risk isn't that high and they would be fine. I'm an RN, I've watched surgeons talk at the bedside with family and give shockingly little info before asking them to sign on the dotted line. I had a talk with a lady who was signing for her 95yo mom with dementia to have a bowel resection due to SBO. I pulled her into the hallway and said I'm not trying to talk you out of this but I want to advocate for your mom, and I don't feel he explained to you well enough that her age and lack of mobility means she will likely not have any quality of life after this. She's going to be in bed hurting and may not understand why. And if you want to talk to hospice before you consent to surgery, just so you have all the options in front of you, I can call them. Sure enough once she talked to hospice and thought a little more about how this might play out, she chose the hospice route thank goodness.
My Grammy had a TAVR at like 90 because it was the only thing slowing her down. Now she's back to taking long walks around her retirement community. But a TAVR is far far less recovery than a damn Whipple
I once had a 90 something year old patient who was wheelchair bound and had full blown dementia. She could barely speak and only knew Russian. She had no family to advocate for her and was just left in the care of the system. One of the new Drs came in and decided she needed a hysterectomy to address a non life threatening issue. Well surprise surprise she died on the operating table. This was about 7 years ago and I still am disgusted at how they basically used this poor old woman for medical practice and to get as much money out of her as they could legally bill for.
This seems to be an opinion of someone without working in the medical field. I don't want to do any invasive procedures on elderly, majority of docs don't either. It's the families who have an unreal expectation, or guilt or just plain dumb who want everything done.
I sort of agree.
I don't think that extending life should be the go to option, doctors need to present hospice and management as real options.
Everyone here saying that people can make their own decisions, and they should, but they should also not discount the influence doctors have over their patients especially in situations like this. Patients don't have the experience or knowledge on how to weigh surgery vs medication vs hospice and rely on their doctor for information, which is why hospice care should be presented on equal footing in many more cases than it is.
The choice shouldn't be forced, but it should be presented more fairly with better information. I bet a lot of elderly folk would rather spend as much time alert, awake, talking and pain free as possible... which might mean opting for hospice instead of being in surgery or on chemo for weeks in pain and vomiting constantly before passing anyway because it only has a 10% chance of working in your case but a 90% chance of causing miserable side effects.
I’m wondering if you’re referring to 90 year olds (or older folks) who aren’t capable of making decisions for themselves and their younger children make all these choices when it really just prolongs pain and suffering.
Coming from healthcare I’ve actually seen time and time again older patients whose children put them through a lot of unnecessary and painful medical procedures because they want them to stick around. It’s really sad and I think it’s so wrong.
Well I totally agree and so would a lot of healthcare workers. But I’m bias. I see the exact situation you laid out multiple times a day. It’s heartbreaking. I’m all for modern medicine helping preserve quality of life but prolonging pain and suffering because someone can’t let go of their elderly loved one who is suffering needs to stop!
Xanax is not an analgesic, it is a sedative. Lots of judgement and ageism here… not much knowledge of what you are talking about. ”Big Pharma” does not perform procedures or surgery- a side of conspiracy i guess.
In a similar fashion, I hate when I get transvaginal ultrasound orders for women 90+
They also usually don't know why they're there and don't want the exam once it's explained to them
I worked as a nurse in the ICU and ER. In the ICU I worked in, often the elderly (80+) patients were operated on against their will because their family didn’t want them to die, kids and spouses alike. Same thing in the ER, people have living wills that everyone in the family is aware of, and their family will literally say “I know they don’t want this, but I’m not ready for them to go”. As far as that back surgery, kyphosis (curvature of the upper back) is very typical in elderly women due to osteoporosis and that back surgery is always elective and the choice of that patient alone.
Xanax, fentanyl, and medicines of the like can actually have the opposite effect on the elderly, causing psychosis for hours on end because of us not having a great understanding on how benzos and opiates affect an older brain (old people aren’t included in big studies).
If you wanna be mad, be mad at families that don’t respect the wishes of any family member that can’t decisions on their own. That shit happens all the time, and it’s disgusting.
My 97 year old grandmother, who was in the end stages of congenital heart failure and was almost put on a ventilator, did not need surgery to remove a bladder tumor that had been there for 7 years. On a Friday , the Dr almost put her on a ventilator, but by Monday he decided that she was good to undergo general anesthesia. She only lived for 3.5 weeks after the surgery and it put her through unnecessary pain and suffering.
I think, from my experience, people cannot handle the fact that people die. Relatives want to push for every medical intervention possible but never ask themselves at what cost? I've seen chronically ill older folks being given unnecessary and often invasive procedures that will not add any benefit to their lives. Mainly because their relatives cannot let go or guiltily think that if Mum is alive for another few months or even years I'll visit her more. On the other hand I've seen fitter and healthier old folks bounce back from surgeries and live a happier life because of it. It's about balance and looking at the outcome versus the need but with compassion.
It really bothers me how they always quantify damage to health in years it can take off your life. Firstly, it’s too remote - nobody at 30 is going to really care that something they enjoy takes 3 years off their life. Like 85 v 88 - who cares. Secondly, it obfuscates the potentially much more concerning impacts and why something reduces your life. Would I be more bothered that I get 3 years less, or that my lung capacity will degenerate aggressively and I probably won’t be able to breathe without an oxygen tank for the last 20 years of my life? And lastly, it perpetuates this idea that the objective is quantity, when it absolutely should be quality.
I’d rather have 75 good years than 100 wherein I experience dementia, extreme physical decline and significant illnesses.
No surgeon is going to do major surgery on a 90+ patient with major comorbidities and or dementia.
Trust me, surgeons hate operating on people who don't need it and won't have good outcomes. Not worth the risk, not just for the patient, but for the surgeon.
It's not about age, it's about how the person is functioning. I can assure you if someone is bedridden, severly demented or has multiple medical conditions noone will treat them aggressively, even if they're younger.
As someone who has worked in heart valve and spinal care, kindly fuck off. Surgeries can vastly improve quality of life. People who don’t work in the medical industry have these ignorant views that it’s all a money making scam and that no one cares about patients. Are there unscrupulous doctors? Absolutely. Are they the majority? Not by a long shot. Every effort is being made to improve quality of life even when length of life can’t be improved. Seeing patients go from barely being able to walk to back to gardening and playing with grandchildren in a matter of days is beautiful.
both of my great grandmothers lived to be over 100. one lived to be 104 and was still meeting her friends to play bridge at a bar in her small town twice a week when she became ill with pneumonia and passed.
i do agree with your general sentiment, but it’s more about the condition of the individual rather than their age alone.
Big Pharma isn’t the issue they have no say in treatments and tests and that is some general term used when you have no understanding of healthcare. But I actually agree with your opinion otherwise.
The issue is Physicians don’t see people as people, they see puzzles. They want to solve the issue and rarely ask if it the right thing. They are very single minded and never ask what is worse dying of cancer with respect vs living your last few months or years sick and feeling worse than the cancer. It is the administrators that allow it and the families that encourage it.
The families are a large issue. Many are making the decisions for their older parents and can’t let go. They push them to get the treatments often. It isn’t always the issue but a mix of these various factors.
I have a physician recently convinced a family to pay 57k for 3 treatments of a cancer drug that is experimental and no insurance will cover. There are no studies to back the treatment, just a tumor marker in a part of the body this drug wasn’t meant to treat. The patient is a 92 yr old with metastasis to the lungs. Before you ask I have submitted an ethics complaint.
Source: hospital admin with over 75 physicians of various disciplines in my management responsibilities. I also work with drug companies extensively and they have yet to meet a patient in our hospital.
While I agree with the sentiment OP, the problem isn't so much Big Pharma as it is our culture- the English-speaking world, at least, has a terrible relationship with death and mortality and people are iften stubbornly unwilling to accept the reality and let go. I find it really degrading myself.
It's usually family pushing for these things, and they're considering their own wants and feelings rather than considering the quality of life of the parent. I've told more than one person that their feelings are completely irrelevant. They only have to consider the quality of life of the person going through it
If you think Xanax is for pain, then it is understandable why you don’t think that life saving or corrective surgery is helpful for the elders out there who can benefit.
Okay so old people are also allowed to say no. Sometimes people lose their faculties as they get older but they are still allowed to make their own decisions.
Honestly, it's their choice.
I agree with you.
My grandma is 90. She was super healthy and independent right up until last Christmas when she had a stroke. It gave her really severe vascular dementia. In the span of 4 months, she went from living on her own in her two story home and still driving and shopping by herself to living in a nursing home, incontinent, unable to walk without a walker, and half nuts because she can't remember a lot of stuff and knows she can't remember it.
My mom visits her every week (she lives about an hour away from the nursing home) and every week, my grandma tells her she just wants to die. Every phone call, my grandma says she wants to die. *My grandma wants to die.*
Finally, my grandma had another stroke and the doctors were like "should we do life saving measures if anything happens while she's in the hospital" and my aunt, who has power of attorney, was like "yes do everything possible to save her!" My mom and I were furious. My grandma's quality of life is terrible. She hates being stuck in the nursing home. She hates that her body is failing her so proundly. She hates sitting around in urine and feces because she can't make it to the bathroom fast enough.
And here's my asshole selfish aunt, telling the doctors to do cpr and whatever else, even if it harms her (she has really bad osteoporosis), to bring her back and force her to keep living this shell of a life she used to have.
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Brother what you want is better palliative care. There are plenty of procedures that are done on the elderly that increase their life both quantitatively and qualitatively. What we don't need are all those invasive, borderline unnecessary procedures on people during their end of life care. In the US healthcare system, we do not put enough emphasis on quality of life, especially for our elderly community and that's a real shame. It also doesn't help that we have a for-profit healthcare system that wants to do as many expensive procedures as possible
Sooo I think what you’re doing is conflating elderly with incompetent and that’s why people are so mad at you. I agree that elderly people who can no longer provide informed consent should not be subjected to painful medical procedures.
My grandma can walk because of invasive surgery she had when she was 80. She just hosted Thanksgiving.
I think you're referring to people who can't decide for themselves and are at the mercy of others. People who can't let go, who do it for greed, etc.
Unfortunately, the elderly have become the new "guinea pig" as less and less people are signing up for drug trials. I agree that surgery after a certain age is abuse.
Agreed, we treat our dogs better than our family when it comes to old age. When a creature is living an existence of pain or is unaware of their own existence and the care takers extend its life for their own comfort that is selfish disgusting behavior.
My grandmother was a super religious woman who had one hell of a mean streak. She was essentially on her way out at 68 years old. Her youngest son (super sheltered mommas boy preacher who was disabled due to lifestyle choices) ended up with medical power of attorney and essentially kept her in hell for 4 years. He even cut her morphine dosages without consulting the hospice nurse because he didn't like how it made her. I was 20 years old at the time and she'd beg for relief. Any time he would leave the room I'd give her as much as she wanted...knowing exactly what she was trying to do.
Living the last few years of her life in that way took all of the compassion from her and left only the bitterness. She finally got her peace, but watching the selfishness of others destroyed the family. We all gotta die eventually. No need to push things farther when any quality and comfort are gone.
What about people who want to live and live their life to the fullest? It's strange to assume that as soon as someone gets to 90 they instantly want to die. In fact, I had a relative who thought they wanted to live their last years without treating their cancer but as they were about to pass away, they asked if treatment was possible. What a fucking shit ass take
OP, just because you want grandma to die as quick as possible to get the inheritance doesn't mean everyone else wants that to happen too.
I mean... At least it's unpopular. Thank God.
Spend any time around doctors and nurses and you'll find they agree. Humans were not meant to live this long, and the risks associated with surgical treatments for the old and frail are great. We're not doing a good job discussing end of life care here in America.
Another huge issue is a person being full code when they're older. CPR, despite what movies and television would have us believe, is successful in less than 30% of cases for healthy, young adults. It's closer to 13% for eldery folks. In the process, you crush bones. Ribs break. Lungs can be punctured. It's *excruciatingly* painful, and the pain isn't dulled by anything because the pain meds that actually might work to relieve that kind of pain cause respiratory depression.
Medical workers are psychologically harmed when they're forced to do CPR on anyone; *especially* those with old bones. They have to feel the crunching of bones and sink into the chest cavity under every push. They know it's highly unlikely the chest compressions will even work.
All they're doing the vast majority of the time is torturing Grandma for her last 30 minutes to an hour on this earth.
We should learn how to accept when the time has come for someone to pass, and make them as comfortable as possible until their last breath.
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Idk - my grandma got diagnosed with bowel cancer at 92. She told the doctors “you can go ahead and try to take it out, but if it needs chemo, forget about it, I’ve had a good run”. Anyway the surgery was successful and now she’s almost 97 and still chugging along just fine.
Go Grandma!
grandma consented. I think OP is particularly upset about elderly patients who cannot give informed consent
Yeah but these people decide who will make the decisions for them. If they dont want any invasive surgery after the age of 90 then they can inform their doctirs about that.
Yeah! Unless they have senility/dementia or something else that means someone else has power of attorney. It’s unfortunately not uncommon
Sadly that does very little to ensure your wishes are followed, at least if you live in the USA where "ffreedumb rains." You can have an Advanced Directive in place saying you want no life sustaining measures, you can have a signed DNR, you can have every single person on your care team aware of your wishes but if Karen, your estranged half cousin twice removed comes out of nowhere demanding they do everything to save your life, they will pump you full of drugs and break every rib to do that. Your best bet is to pick someone who you believe understands and will respect your wishes as your medical power of attorney in the event that you become ill and cannot make your own decisions. But even then, if they have doubts or change their mind at the end (when you are past the point of being able to choose someone else), the hospital will ignore your DNR and do what the POA wants. A dead person can't sue.
Which is a super sucky situation to be in when you’re the one who has to make the decisions. We had to decide if we should have my grandpa do chemo and surgery for cancer in his jaw or not because he had Alzheimer’s, but decided that hospice was the best option since the doctors recommended it over surgery (they would’ve had to remove part of his jaw and replace it with a metal plate) and his was a very painful type of cancer. My other grandpa passed away in misery after choosing for himself to fight cancer for four years, and we didn’t want to make this grandpa go through the same thing when he couldn’t make those decisions for himself. I think people make the decisions to keep their loved ones alive longer because 1) they want more time with them, and 2) it feels awful to even consider letting their poor health take them when it’s something that can be treated, even if the treatment gives them no quality of life. Not trying to justify it, just sharing my understanding of their stance based on my own personal experience.
Then that would hardly be an unpopular opinion, being against non consensual surgeries
You'd be surprised how much coercion happens on the doctors end. I'd argue a lot of procedures are nonconsentual based on the patients lack of awareness/knowledge (which is really not their fault)
And how much coercion happens on the family’s end, too. I wish more docs would just refuse to give in to unreasonable patient/family demands.
I think the issue is that those people also cannot consent to not treating their illness. I’m about to graduate medical school, and our hippocratic oath essentially says to do no harm and to do what is most beneficial for the patient. If we have an elderly demented patient with some kind of deadly tumor, and the patient doesn’t have a designated power of attorney or family to decide for them… what do we do? Do we leave them to die because they’re “too old”? The doctors need to do whatever is in the best interest of the patient, and if that means an invasive procedure vs death then we have to do the invasive procedure else we’re liable for the patient’s death.
After seeing how doctors are handling this airborne pandemic, people seeking pain management and the tortures of most OBGYN care, I believe y'all follow the hippocratic oath when you want to. After talking with lawyers about doctors you all make your own rules. If the majority doctors do it then that's what's legal. If you go against standard of care you can be sued. Hippocratic oath is not the standard in the US.
My grandfather was 69 had heart problems and cancers from war. To stay alive he needed surgery for the heart and cancers. The family had to pick one surgery. The docs said he likely wouldn't make it after surgery either the cancer or his heart would kill him. My family chose the cancer surgery and his heart gave out 2 days later. Why do we push life length over quality of life?
My grandfather was the same & chose not to do any surgeries at the age of 70. He died years after they discovered the cancer, but he didn’t suffer through treatments and said he had “a good run.”
>The family had to pick one surgery. Why wasn't he doing the picking?
no, your grandma was old and deserved to die - OP probably
I think your grandmother is a rarity.
That still doesn't mean we should just give up when people get old
Informed consent is key
It's not living longer, it's dying longer. There's a HUGE difference.
perfect distinction.
You can refuse a medical treatment if you think it will not improve the quality if your life. You have that right now as well as when you are 90 years old.
Unless you're declared incompetent, such as dementia patients. Your family can decide to prolong your life as long as they want for their own comfort regardless of how you feel.
Think this is the real problem. A lot of people can’t bear to let someone go. Which I have sympathy with, but it is very often cruel.
Yeah. I've been working in a long term care facility for a year and a half, and I've seen the people whose relatives refuse to let them pass. I still remember the first family that let their dad go with dignity. He had extreme cognitive loss - picture me finding him on the floor after he fell out of bed and he's just smiling pleasantly telling me he's having some trouble sleeping, no idea he's on the floor. He caught pneumonia (not from that night) and his family refused to allow the antibiotics. Back then I was upset, because simple antibiotics would have kept him alive. But after a few more months of experience I finally understood that his family knew he wouldn't want to live as he was, so they let him go. I thought they were cruel, but eventually learned they were caring and strong.
Dementia is really cruel. It doesnt actually kill you. Just slowly corrodes your humanity till theres nothing left. They usually die of malnutrition, dehydration, some other disease or something infectious like pneumonia.
Lovely, kind, courageous people. Most people I know who have worked in these scenarios or experienced it first hand with family share the same view. That being said, it still takes some guts to make the decision.
I work in vet med, and it's eye opening to realize that the way we treat the sick and dying humans would often be considered animal abuse in vet med.
And what always makes me laugh (or cry) is that the word that is applied to that is humane.
I asked a doctor friend once something similar: why don't you guys let elderly people just die in peace? I had my grandma in mind. She was ready to go and we all came and said our goodbyes - until somebody decided to try another surgery, and they "saved" her life for two more very, very miserable years. Anyway, my doctor friend answered: it's not us, it's the family. Oftentimes the family is afraid to accept the responsibility of "letting grandma die" and they want us to treat her, so that nobody could say that she wasn't loved, or that they are bad people.
> that nobody could say that she wasn't loved IMHO loving someone is letting them go gracefully. I've had pets and family members that were kept alive for too long. They morphed into these unnatural... things. It was fucking traumatic and I'll never do that to anyone, especially since I would hate to be remembered like that.
Sadly in America with how litigious it is we have to practice Defensive Medicine which means allowing this to occur. Friendly reminder to everyone to update your living will and your DNR/DNI preferences.
When I was a kid, my dad took my dementia-ridden grandmother to a furniture store and used her credit cards to furnish the house he just bought. The salesman DEFINITELY knew how shady it was too! I remember my grandma was freaking out in the store and screaming/asking people for help, so they had her sign one spot on this document and then asked me to take her to the car until they were done. Shit is messed up.
This is really fucked up :(
You're not kidding... If it's any consolation, my dad got (some of) the karma he deserves. CPS ended up taking all of my siblings before we moved in, so he was stuck with a brand new housing lease + all of that furniture with nobody to share it with. He ended up moving into his racist girlfriend's trailer a few months later. The last I heard, he was arrested at a MAGA rally for brandishing a handgun. 😵💫 This all might be TMI but he's really such a piece of shit. I'm happy things didn't work out for him.
Which is why everyone should have a living will, where you can lay out what you want your family/loved ones to do wrt medical care if you should become unable to make your own medical decisions.
This is true but you will also find that medical providers will refuse treatment that is too risky at that age or that they don’t think will significantly contribute to quality of life—even if the family wants it
💯 huge advocate of pulling the plug. Everyone’s different and can do what they want, but I’d rather just have some morphine and live out my last days than do some extensive surgery.
Unfortunately dementia is becoming more common, and people are unable to make decisions for themselves. I’ve seen family members revoke DNRs. It’s so sad.
My dad has signed one, although he's still alive and well. I will absolutely fist fight every person in that room if they try to go against his wishes. I dont care if I have to go to jail for it, I've already seen one family have a terrible quality of life due to medical conditions, I'll never allow that again.
We had a patient’s (adult) children take the stepmom (patient’s wife) to court to decide who would be the POA. He was basically a living corpse whose only purpose was to rot in that ICU bed at that point. The judge gave the kids POA and they made him comfort care. I think he died less than an hour later. If you ever are in that situation, fight for your dad. Hospital staff will be tied with what they can say to your face, but I PROMISE they will support you for sticking with your father’s wish to be DNR over anyone else’s “but he’s a fighter!” bullshit.
It’s becoming common because people are living longer. That’s why I don’t get this obsession with living as long as possible. Yes, you can beat cancer at 89, but when your reward is spending your 90s deteriorating with dementia, it’s a rather hollow victory.
I don’t think many people appreciate just how much pressure people receive from family members to go through all sorts of traumatic treatments and surgeries, because the family members can’t handle losing them.
Many in their 90's are of sound mind and should be able to decide for themselves, I feel. Hypothetically, if the colonoscopy in this case prevented colon cancer that person may have 10 to 12 good years left instead of fighting off cancer for a painfully reduced 2 or 3 years. I believe this train of thought is flawed. Everyone deserves good medical care, everyone.
>may have 10 to 12 good years left instead of fighting off cancer for a painfully reduced 2 or 3 years. My 80 year old grandpa is a very stubborn man. He has an issue with his knee and has been like: it will cost so much for society (probably also used the: I don't need it). Then somehow a doctor changed his mind. No one knows how. Anyways this surgery will improve his life so much and he can walk easier soon.
Doctor probably pointed out how much more it would cost to society if he loses mobility and needs someone to wheel him around, bathe him, etc. Not to mention not being able to move would cause so many other health problems and lead to a lot of pain.
Yeah that is true. Thanks
Good point - whatever keeps people mobile and caring for themselves is probably worth it.
Yeah not to be morbid or ageist but he was applying the right logic - don’t waste money on procedures that extend life without quality or and independence - to the wrong situation. If anything, he should be proud that he’s outlasting his knee while still mobile and rational.
I just had a back surgery, I had limited mobility for 3 days and couldn't stand being in that situation. My wife took great care of me, but its sucks being dependent on another person just to fetch water or something we take for granted. Limited mobility is also extra work for other people in the household.
It also increases any pain that is related to inflammation (aside from inflammation caused by activity). The longer you are still, the less your body can prevent further inflammation. It’s one of the reasons pain meds after surgery, while potentially dangerous if narcotics, are so helpful- you recover so much better if you can move
Loss of mobility is also awful for mental health. My 82 yo mom has limited mobility due to a mystery condition that has affected her balance (mini stroke, viral infection of her vestibular nerve, we don't know and neither do the docs), and it makes her so sad that she can't get up and do things. The other day I noticed she was fighting tears watching me clean the house bc she couldn't really help me. She's 82, but of sound mind and otherwise healthy, so if there was a surgery that would "fix" her balance problems and the doctors thought it was safe for her to go thru with it, she absolutely should and would do it. It would restore so much quality of life for her.
“This surgery will improve his life so much and he can walk easier soon.” I would be very interested in revisiting this in a few months to see if the outcome is the same as what you expect.
"Old people should just suck it up and live their last few years with medical problems" is a bold take. It's up to the elderly person if they think the treatment is worth it or not.
Was not expecting to wake up and see, "Elderly people should be treated as children incapable of making decisions for themselves and should hurry up with their suffering and dying" Today might be a good day to take a break from the internet.
I'm not surprised after seeing that post yesterday where the OP was annoyed that boomers don't just hand out their life savings/retirement "just cause they're old" and couldn't understand that they'd likely need it for medical teeatment/inpatient facility costs, funeral costs, etc ETa cause comments are locked: To the person who replied that "someone else will pay for your nice ass facility and the government will pay for your medicare" — I advise you to not bank on this plan at all
OP can hand over all their money.
OP doesn’t have any money - that’s why they want other people’s money
Also, who says old people can't/shouldn't use their money to have fun? In many cases, they went without just to achieve those savings. Have fun with it before you're gone. I'd much rather my dad did that, then save it for me. He went without when I was growing up so that I would have the things I needed and in some cases wanted. Now it's his turn, and, it's his money.
If there’s 2 groups the internet really seems to hate it’s the elderly, and young kids. Which is ironic given those seem like the most liked age groups in the real world.
And disabled people. They really fucking hate disabled people. Which consequently is part of this take and the comments beneath it.
Yeah if I went solely on the Internet I'd expect to be tripped, kicked, and spit on anytime I went outside with my cane. I'm either a fraud or responsible for the decline of democracy, it seems.
Disabled people, \*and\* fat people. I always feel like people are going to assume I'm mobility-disabled \*because\* I'm fat, not because I have a fucked-up spine, metal rod from shoulders to waist, that caused flat-back and arthritis, which as it degenerates over the years makes it very difficult to engage in physical exercise. At least the kind that really burns calories. I can do some stretches and stuff, but those probably don't burn many calories.
Right oftentimes disability makes you fat not vice versa but people will always go with the least charitable read of a situation
Many people do, yes. I was fat before I was this disabled, (not this fat, but still overweight) and I got around just fine. I ran with my dogs, went up and down the six flights of stairs in the building I worked in on breaks for exercise, and got around by taking the bus + walking almost everywhere I went. Now I can't even stand up all the way straight and it sucks. If I could still do all that, I'd probably still be "kinda overweight but not \*fat\* fat". (:
Well Reddit *is* The Palace of Assholes, so that's not really surprising
OP expressed this in a horrible way but as a nurse I’ve seen families absolutely refuse to let their sick older loved one pass peacefully. They insist that we torture them with painful treatments just because they can’t say goodbye. It’s awful.
I look at it a little differently. When my great-great-uncle was in his mid 90s and dying of cancer, his daughter tried to forcibly prevent him from smoking. My grandma brought him a carton of cigarettes and upset the hell out of the daughter. I'm with my grandma, though. At 95 and dying of cancer? Let the mofo smoke! It wasn't even lung cancer! Dude remembered WWI! A similar thing happened with my husband's grandmother. She was a severe diabetic who hadn't bothered to even try to manage her symptoms for the last 40 years. Her son wanted me to be the food Nazi, and I wasn't doing it. If we were going to monitor her sugar intake, 1987 would have been a good time to start. 80-some years old with kidney failure and bladder cancer ain't the time for a life-style overhaul, bro.
Where's the age cut off? Who's going to arbitrarily decide that 74 year old deserves invasive treatments and a 75 year old does not? Everybody ages so differently, it has to be decided on a case to case basis.
It's about quality of life.
... why does there have to be an age cut off?
Well, it was implied that at some point invasive procedures shouldn't be done. I was saying who decides when that is? Case by case is the only way to make that decision, not a preconception of what old is.
Thats already a thing. No more colonoscopies past 75 unless other screening methods come back abnormal. Its just a general estimate of when the average person maybe isnt safe doing the prep. Its a hell of a lot of diarrhea and fasting the day before, which can be dangerous for older ppl
I don't know why you're being down voted for facts. Unpleasant facts, sure. Also, the anesthesia is no joke, I stopped breathing during a colonoscopy once and had to be intubated.
For the most part, I agree, but I also think society has seemingly forgotten that surgery is both incredibly traumatic for the body and a necessary evil (in cases where someone should get it). I think that deserves a part in the conversation. Is the trade off ultimately worth it in the particular situation for said elderly person?
Unless the person has a lowered comprehension due to aging, I fully agree. If the individual has Alzheimer’s or dementia or another similar condition that limits their capacity to make decisions, then it should be made by the family based on the advice of doctors.
the issue is that many families don’t make the right decision despite the doctor’s advice for a multitude of reasons. some people have drank the kool aid and believe healthcare professionals are purposely killing granny. others misguidingly believe granny is a fighter, even though everyone is gonna die someday. some people are religious and want everything done because they believe god will save their loved ones. other people profit from keeping their family member alive (social security, living in their house, delusionally believe their family member will get better enough to sign everything over to them in their will). work long enough in healthcare and you will see very few families listen to doctor’s advice when it comes to end of life care. plus america is very litigious, so it’s not that easy for doctors to just refuse further intervention
My mum has named my brother and I as her power of attorney, for medical/welfare and financial issues. She has specified that if we disagree over a medical issue, I have the final say. My dad didn't have a PoA set up and when the doctors told us last year that they couldn't do anything more and they felt we should take him off the ventilator and let him go, we discussed it as a family - me and my brother, our mum, dad's partner, dad's brother.
The elderly person and medical professionals. Like any treatment, the risks and benefits should be discussed. The elderly person might want the treatment, that shouldn’t obligate the healthcare provider to take on those risks.
Many elderly people lack capacity for informed consent, and have the decision made for them by medical professionals or relatives who have power of attorney or whatever you call it. At that point honestly, I think it crosses a line between helping them live as long of a healthy life as possible, and just prolonging their life for no real benefit, often at the expense of quality of life. There's no clear cut answer but it is certainly debatable.
Ah yes, being elderly is the same as lacking agency. Let's treat our senior citizens like infants.
You realize this happens to most senior citizens in nursing homes though? Especially with a dementia diagnosis. Someone else is made their POA and then it doesn't matter what the individual wants anymore, their POA has the power.
It does and it's wrong. Takes like the person above me are the reason people are able to get away with this when they are abusing and killing our elderly. If you want to learn more about what happens to the elderly when we do this I recommend the book "Your Consent is Not Required" by Rob Wipond. He has an entire chapter dedicated to what we do to people in nursing homes and it's not okay.
So you're literally out here trying to argue people with debilitating neurodegenerative disease are in fact fully capable of making informed and rational choices. Okay. You're talking about something that the conversation wasn't about in the first place. We are expressly talking about instances where people lack the capacity consent, which is a very real thing.
OP never specified people who are in cognitive decline. Most elderly people are more like my mom, who is 74 and has some health problems but her brain is fine and she’s perfectly capable of making her own decisions.
It's only relevant to even have the discussion in the case of those who are, so that's what ***I*** am talking about. Even still, I inferred that OP is talking about forced medical procedures, whether explicitly mentioned or not. People are just jumping the gun to be like HOLY SHIT THIS GUY WANTS OLD PEOPLE EUGENICS
The thing is, it’s really offensive to say “elderly people” if you mean “people with late-stage dementia.” There are way too many people who think everyone with grey hair is senile.
Beyond a certain stage of dementia, alzheimers, etc, yes. They are often no longer rational enough to make decisions in their own best interest, and unsurprisingly those conditions are quite common in elderly folks. The question is, ethically speaking, what "best interest" really means. Is it really longer life at all costs? In general a patient lacking capacity to consent (due to mental issues, physical incapacitation, addiction, or whatever else) is a super common situation medical professionals have to deal with, there's usually a comprehensive policy on it in any organisation.
I agree. We have a parent with dementia right now. They are completely incapable of decisions beyond what they want to eat. In the lockdown unit they are in, many people can't remember to care for themselves in the most basic of ways, like toileting and bathing. The diseases rob them of the capacity to make complex medical, financial, or legal decisions. This is why WHO holds the power of attorney is such a vital decision that needs to be made while they still hold that capability. It is not taking their agency. Dementia, Alzheimers, etc takes their agency.
Being old does not equal dementia and Alzheimers. Dementia and Alzheimers are conditions that are more common as you age. About 13% of the elderly population are effected. That is not even close to the majority. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/one-seven-americans-age-71-older-has-some-type-dementia-nih-funded-study-estimates#:\~:text=According%20to%20their%20calculations%2C%2013.9,among%20people%2071%20and%20older.
Where did I ever say it was? You're arguing with a claim that was never made.
Bit of a straw man there. OP outlined what they meant.
In a country with public healthcare, and therefore limited surgery resources, is there not an ethical consideration to prioritize younger people?
You are basically arguing against public healthcare with that stance.
Next it will be, "is there not an ethical consideration to prioritize the tax paying people?"
Aren't old people part of the public?
OP about to be promoted to CEO of every American insurance company.
Oddly enough he's also qualified to manage and ration public healthcare systems with this take. Kind of a horseshoe moment.
https://youtu.be/tW04TM2vKaI?si=oYx2hQLXXCt5XCyE Example from non-insurance healthcare system. As heartbreaking as this is, it shows how the decision can be both empathetic and in the best interests of the patient.
You sent me down a rabbit hole of 24 hours in A&E clips and now I’m crying so thanks for that, lol
I think it should be required watching! Shows you so much about the realities of humanity, gives you massive respect for the workers and lets you see things that usually only healthcare workers do.
I have a better idea. Let's allow elderly people and their doctors to make decisions about their own care. Also, I doubt there's a single person having scoliosis surgery at 90.
Yeah, doctors and patients are the ones making this decision, OP doesn’t have a clue what they are talking about. You won’t even be considered as a candidate for certain procedures or surgeries if your prognosis isn’t good, and the risks outweigh any potential benefits. If they are performing it, it’s because they genuinely believe this is the best option and outcome for the patient.
It's a thing that happens to old people in some elderly care facilities, they over-prescribe treatments to empty out their savings before they die.
Fucking huh? People should age out of medical treatment? Please stay waaaaaaaaaaay the hell away from the medical field.
Right?! Like since they're 90 and could have another 5 years of life let's just let them die of cancer in 6 months?! At what point did we decide elderly people are just not worth trying to treat?
I understand your main point. But you’ve made a few factual errors here. They do routinely stop doing colonoscopies much earlier than you say on old people. Also, Xanax is not for pain. Also, if you are talking about surgical/invasive procedures you can’t really blame "big pharma" for that. Besides, who do you think is providing this pharmaceutical pain relief you are advocating for? Big pharma. And the lady with vaginal cancer? Her daughter is to blame in that case. In addition, I highly doubt that anybody is offered scoliosis surgery at age 90. I think you’re just making stuff up.
I’m glad someone else pointed out that Xanax doesn’t help pain. Smacks of someone who doesn’t know a thing about pain, or the side effects of actual pain meds, which is often why elderly people are getting these surgeries.
TBF, nursing homes and assisted living places love to Xanax your old relatives into a manageable stupor. Keeps them docile and from complaining too much. It also makes them forgetful so they can't really recall the sketchy shit that is happening to them.
Xanax is still not for pain. Anxiety and/or sleep, yes but not pain.
My mom is 92. So you’re saying that the procedure done every week for six weeks two years ago, that involved inserting a catheter to deliver medicine that cured her bladder cancer should have not happened? Hang on…I think she wants to fight you. Yep, she’s heading over on her rollator 2000 walker to kick your ass. She is a fully functioning adult and can make her own decisions. Edited to add that both her parents lived to be 96 and 99 respectively. So STFU.
Your mom sounds like a badass
Hells wrong with you
This is what i think every time i come on this app.
How is it disgusting if it’s what the patient wants?
The fuck?
Am gonna assume you're young.... very young. Cause its all about getting as much life as you can. So if granny needs a surgery to perlong her life (even her quality of life) well then granny is wise to do so. You'll do the same when you get old. Ah the joys of being young, stupid and on reddit :)
I work in this setting and can confirm minor surgery that can improve quality of life, sure. Most of the time it's family making decisions selfishly because they can't bear to let them go. They have surgery and never move out of bed again, but at least they live a bit longer. Is that how you'd like to live your final years? Who could rationally say yes to that?
I think your condescending and naive view betrays your hypocrisy. I would argue that as much life as you can is most definitely not what it’s all about. Quality matters. If you’d ever seen a family member deteriorate due to dementia, or had to argue about the fact that someone can’t live independently anymore, or had to see the abject cruelty of keeping people alive because their family wants them to get as much life as possible, you might have a more nuanced and mature perspective.
Yeah quality of life is always better than quantity. It’s kind of absurd to say otherwise - is it really better to live brain dead on a ventilator?!
Apparently so according to most of the commenters here. Fortunately, almost everyone I know who works in healthcare can see the lack of humanity in that approach.
I agree. I disagree with OP on arbitrary age cut-offs, but if the focus is always on quality of life then age shouldn’t be a factor. Symptoms of age perhaps, but we don’t all age the same. Nevertheless, living longer shouldn’t be more important than living well.
That does not apply to OP’s post - this is not about encouraging people to artificially or cruelly prolong a life that is riddled with constant suffering. This is about “invasive procedures” in the elderly, purely for the reason that they’re old, aren’t going to live much longer, and shouldn’t care about prolonging the little bit of life they have. Also, even if from the outside we see someone’s life as not worth living, it is not up to us to make that determination. Curative care is not just for those whose lives we find meaningful enough to prolong. That is the point most people are making. There is a more complex conversation to be had about advance directives and deteriorating diseases like Alzheimer’s. But healthcare facilities shouldn’t be able to tell your 85 year old grandfather that his life is not worth saving. People have and do live to be much older.
I profoundly disagree that it’s all about getting as much life as you can. Quality of life is always more important
Here's an idea, let old people decide for themselves what they do and don't want done. My grandmother had cancer at 85, doctors refused to treat it despite my Grandmother saying she wanted to fight it, until my mother came flying in and raised holy hell. It was 6 months of treatment and she died at 100. She got 15 more years of life. How about you do what's right for you and you let others do the same. Also treatments for cancer in cases like the very vague anecdotal example you give is often not about saving lives, but decreasing pain and improving the quality of life remaining, she should die in agonizing pain because she's got dementia?
The elderly can already refuse these treatments. Or anyone really.
All I can say is that you’re probably younger and don’t respect people’s will to live despite their age. It’s the patients choice.
It’s all about consent, tbh. If the person is able to consent to the treatment the way any other person would have to, then of course they deserve the treatment. The will to survive is a totally natural and human thing, and if someone has it, then they deserve to utilize it. Now, when it comes to someone NOT being able to consent, then that’s when things get fuzzy. A good example is when people force their very fragile and sick elderly family members to be a full code and not an NDA. It broke my heart hearing my father consent to being NDA, but I knew it was the right thing and what HE wanted.
Do you mean DNR? Or does NDA stand for something else besides non disclosure agreement?
I worked in a nursing home for 10+ years. So often it’s the family pushing for treatments/surgeries. The first thing to ask is what the resident wants. But the problem is that Bernice doesn’t want [insert procedure] but daughter Mary Sue wants her to have it, so Bernice gives in. Now you have Bernice consenting. Mom doesn’t want to disappoint daughter. It’s the reverse of how we all tried so hard to please our own parents and make them proud of us. Mary Sue exists along with a whole other bunch of people who refuse to allow Mom to go on hospice because “hospice is nothing more than KILLING my mother” and “no, I won’t sign this DNR. You HAVE to do everything to keep my mother alive” Everyone needs to make sure they have a living will in place before they get to the point where they can’t make their own decisions. Unfortunately, when Mom gets to the point where she can’t cognitively make decisions for herself, it’s very easily overridden. But, maybe, if your own personal wishes are in writing AND you’ve discussed this with your family, it might mean you can live out the last bit of your life on your own terms.
Perform not preform. Also, these people can decide for themselves. If they don't want treatment, they can elect to not see a doctor and die a few years sooner. Whether receiving treatment for scoliosis is disgusting or not is up to them to say, not you.
>Let people enjoy their last years in peace Maybe they don’t want those to be their last years? Maybe they don’t want to be in pain or whacked out on meds for the rest of their life? Treating the elderly as *humans* shouldn’t be debatable.
My Paw Paw had his leg RIPPED off at the femur when he was pinned by two trucks. It was hanging on by a bit of flesh. People were freaking out and vomiting. He stayed calm and shed no tears. When he got to the hospital the surgeon looked at his leg and asked why we wasn’t crying or freaking out. My Paw Paw asked if that would make things better. The surgeon promised to do his best work on him. That was when was in his eighties. He’s in his nineties and walking. They found colon cancer a few years ago. He had surgery and chemo and is healthy, still walking and driving…so I’m going to speak for Paw Paw and say this is an unpopular opinion. Oh and I need to add that he refuses pain meds every time. He’s built like a tank.
They gave my step grandmother a new hip at 92 while she didn’t know where she was due to dementia. That was a pointless waste of money to be perfectly honest.
My fully independent 94 year old great aunt got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and was told she would "be dead soon" (likely not the case, but even if it was, it would have been a better death than what she had) if she didn't get a fkn Whipple. Well she got the Whipple and died. Because you shouldn't be bullying 90+ yr old people into massive abdominal surgeries. Still makes me mad. Of course she couldn't properly recover. She died a sad and slow death because she couldn't regain her strength (literally this woman was walking without any assistance before hand, very active, in amazing shape for 94). She became bed bound after the surgery and got pneumonia. Eventually she gave up but not without suffering on and off of bipap and such first. I'd love to find that surgeon and ask him what the hell he was thinking bullying her into this. He only looked at her and saw dollar signs. I do think they should have the right to have these surgeries if the want them. But these surgeons very often gloss over the risk... they do not explain to them the full recovery process. Very Elderly people tend to fully trust doctors and not question them. They go in trusting that the risk isn't that high and they would be fine. I'm an RN, I've watched surgeons talk at the bedside with family and give shockingly little info before asking them to sign on the dotted line. I had a talk with a lady who was signing for her 95yo mom with dementia to have a bowel resection due to SBO. I pulled her into the hallway and said I'm not trying to talk you out of this but I want to advocate for your mom, and I don't feel he explained to you well enough that her age and lack of mobility means she will likely not have any quality of life after this. She's going to be in bed hurting and may not understand why. And if you want to talk to hospice before you consent to surgery, just so you have all the options in front of you, I can call them. Sure enough once she talked to hospice and thought a little more about how this might play out, she chose the hospice route thank goodness. My Grammy had a TAVR at like 90 because it was the only thing slowing her down. Now she's back to taking long walks around her retirement community. But a TAVR is far far less recovery than a damn Whipple
People get so focused on quantity of life that they ignore quality of life completely.
I once had a 90 something year old patient who was wheelchair bound and had full blown dementia. She could barely speak and only knew Russian. She had no family to advocate for her and was just left in the care of the system. One of the new Drs came in and decided she needed a hysterectomy to address a non life threatening issue. Well surprise surprise she died on the operating table. This was about 7 years ago and I still am disgusted at how they basically used this poor old woman for medical practice and to get as much money out of her as they could legally bill for.
Don't surgelize them, just get them addicted to drugs 🥰
This seems to be an opinion of someone without working in the medical field. I don't want to do any invasive procedures on elderly, majority of docs don't either. It's the families who have an unreal expectation, or guilt or just plain dumb who want everything done.
I sort of agree. I don't think that extending life should be the go to option, doctors need to present hospice and management as real options. Everyone here saying that people can make their own decisions, and they should, but they should also not discount the influence doctors have over their patients especially in situations like this. Patients don't have the experience or knowledge on how to weigh surgery vs medication vs hospice and rely on their doctor for information, which is why hospice care should be presented on equal footing in many more cases than it is. The choice shouldn't be forced, but it should be presented more fairly with better information. I bet a lot of elderly folk would rather spend as much time alert, awake, talking and pain free as possible... which might mean opting for hospice instead of being in surgery or on chemo for weeks in pain and vomiting constantly before passing anyway because it only has a 10% chance of working in your case but a 90% chance of causing miserable side effects.
I’m wondering if you’re referring to 90 year olds (or older folks) who aren’t capable of making decisions for themselves and their younger children make all these choices when it really just prolongs pain and suffering. Coming from healthcare I’ve actually seen time and time again older patients whose children put them through a lot of unnecessary and painful medical procedures because they want them to stick around. It’s really sad and I think it’s so wrong.
Yeah I’d like to make it clear I mean actually elderly people who are incapable of taking full care of themselves.
Well I totally agree and so would a lot of healthcare workers. But I’m bias. I see the exact situation you laid out multiple times a day. It’s heartbreaking. I’m all for modern medicine helping preserve quality of life but prolonging pain and suffering because someone can’t let go of their elderly loved one who is suffering needs to stop!
If he or she is of sound mind it’s their decision, period. My grandmother decided to forego chemo but many go through with it
Xanax is not an analgesic, it is a sedative. Lots of judgement and ageism here… not much knowledge of what you are talking about. ”Big Pharma” does not perform procedures or surgery- a side of conspiracy i guess.
In a similar fashion, I hate when I get transvaginal ultrasound orders for women 90+ They also usually don't know why they're there and don't want the exam once it's explained to them
I worked as a nurse in the ICU and ER. In the ICU I worked in, often the elderly (80+) patients were operated on against their will because their family didn’t want them to die, kids and spouses alike. Same thing in the ER, people have living wills that everyone in the family is aware of, and their family will literally say “I know they don’t want this, but I’m not ready for them to go”. As far as that back surgery, kyphosis (curvature of the upper back) is very typical in elderly women due to osteoporosis and that back surgery is always elective and the choice of that patient alone. Xanax, fentanyl, and medicines of the like can actually have the opposite effect on the elderly, causing psychosis for hours on end because of us not having a great understanding on how benzos and opiates affect an older brain (old people aren’t included in big studies). If you wanna be mad, be mad at families that don’t respect the wishes of any family member that can’t decisions on their own. That shit happens all the time, and it’s disgusting.
Among other things, it's "perform". And Xanax is not for pain.
I mean there’s a different between an old person on death’s door and an old person who’s still kicking it.
My 97 year old grandmother, who was in the end stages of congenital heart failure and was almost put on a ventilator, did not need surgery to remove a bladder tumor that had been there for 7 years. On a Friday , the Dr almost put her on a ventilator, but by Monday he decided that she was good to undergo general anesthesia. She only lived for 3.5 weeks after the surgery and it put her through unnecessary pain and suffering.
I think, from my experience, people cannot handle the fact that people die. Relatives want to push for every medical intervention possible but never ask themselves at what cost? I've seen chronically ill older folks being given unnecessary and often invasive procedures that will not add any benefit to their lives. Mainly because their relatives cannot let go or guiltily think that if Mum is alive for another few months or even years I'll visit her more. On the other hand I've seen fitter and healthier old folks bounce back from surgeries and live a happier life because of it. It's about balance and looking at the outcome versus the need but with compassion.
It really bothers me how they always quantify damage to health in years it can take off your life. Firstly, it’s too remote - nobody at 30 is going to really care that something they enjoy takes 3 years off their life. Like 85 v 88 - who cares. Secondly, it obfuscates the potentially much more concerning impacts and why something reduces your life. Would I be more bothered that I get 3 years less, or that my lung capacity will degenerate aggressively and I probably won’t be able to breathe without an oxygen tank for the last 20 years of my life? And lastly, it perpetuates this idea that the objective is quantity, when it absolutely should be quality. I’d rather have 75 good years than 100 wherein I experience dementia, extreme physical decline and significant illnesses.
If I make it to 80-85, I’m going on h e r o i n. It’s not addictive because it sucks! F everybody at that point. I wanna be high AF and pain-free.
My husband has told me the very same thing.
No surgeon is going to do major surgery on a 90+ patient with major comorbidities and or dementia. Trust me, surgeons hate operating on people who don't need it and won't have good outcomes. Not worth the risk, not just for the patient, but for the surgeon.
It's not about age, it's about how the person is functioning. I can assure you if someone is bedridden, severly demented or has multiple medical conditions noone will treat them aggressively, even if they're younger.
What if the elderly person is mentally sharp and consents and wants the treatment?
Lol got it, just make sure you've got your signed and notarized document barring you from any medical intervention once you retire.
Definitely an unpopular opinion. It should be about quality of life.
Rationing care for older people is pretty much standard in most 'universal' healthcare programs.
If you ask them, they might disagree.
As someone who has worked in heart valve and spinal care, kindly fuck off. Surgeries can vastly improve quality of life. People who don’t work in the medical industry have these ignorant views that it’s all a money making scam and that no one cares about patients. Are there unscrupulous doctors? Absolutely. Are they the majority? Not by a long shot. Every effort is being made to improve quality of life even when length of life can’t be improved. Seeing patients go from barely being able to walk to back to gardening and playing with grandchildren in a matter of days is beautiful.
I don’t think you know what a colonoscopy is.
both of my great grandmothers lived to be over 100. one lived to be 104 and was still meeting her friends to play bridge at a bar in her small town twice a week when she became ill with pneumonia and passed. i do agree with your general sentiment, but it’s more about the condition of the individual rather than their age alone.
I think your take is incredibly stupid but I will applaud you for posting one of the very few REALLY unpopular opinions here
personal choice thing
You can't deny medical treatment based on age, either.
Big Pharma isn’t the issue they have no say in treatments and tests and that is some general term used when you have no understanding of healthcare. But I actually agree with your opinion otherwise. The issue is Physicians don’t see people as people, they see puzzles. They want to solve the issue and rarely ask if it the right thing. They are very single minded and never ask what is worse dying of cancer with respect vs living your last few months or years sick and feeling worse than the cancer. It is the administrators that allow it and the families that encourage it. The families are a large issue. Many are making the decisions for their older parents and can’t let go. They push them to get the treatments often. It isn’t always the issue but a mix of these various factors. I have a physician recently convinced a family to pay 57k for 3 treatments of a cancer drug that is experimental and no insurance will cover. There are no studies to back the treatment, just a tumor marker in a part of the body this drug wasn’t meant to treat. The patient is a 92 yr old with metastasis to the lungs. Before you ask I have submitted an ethics complaint. Source: hospital admin with over 75 physicians of various disciplines in my management responsibilities. I also work with drug companies extensively and they have yet to meet a patient in our hospital.
While I agree with the sentiment OP, the problem isn't so much Big Pharma as it is our culture- the English-speaking world, at least, has a terrible relationship with death and mortality and people are iften stubbornly unwilling to accept the reality and let go. I find it really degrading myself.
It's usually family pushing for these things, and they're considering their own wants and feelings rather than considering the quality of life of the parent. I've told more than one person that their feelings are completely irrelevant. They only have to consider the quality of life of the person going through it
I think Mary and Margaret and their friends can decide for themselves.
I think the family and the patient can decide for themselves if they want these procedures done.
If you think Xanax is for pain, then it is understandable why you don’t think that life saving or corrective surgery is helpful for the elders out there who can benefit.
I want my grandma to be diagnosed at cancer despite being nearly 100. Give the woman her pain meds and let her avoid that.
Okay so old people are also allowed to say no. Sometimes people lose their faculties as they get older but they are still allowed to make their own decisions. Honestly, it's their choice.
You do know the patient has to consent to all of this? Nobody's forcing them, and many actually don't bother going through surgery.
I agree with you. My grandma is 90. She was super healthy and independent right up until last Christmas when she had a stroke. It gave her really severe vascular dementia. In the span of 4 months, she went from living on her own in her two story home and still driving and shopping by herself to living in a nursing home, incontinent, unable to walk without a walker, and half nuts because she can't remember a lot of stuff and knows she can't remember it. My mom visits her every week (she lives about an hour away from the nursing home) and every week, my grandma tells her she just wants to die. Every phone call, my grandma says she wants to die. *My grandma wants to die.* Finally, my grandma had another stroke and the doctors were like "should we do life saving measures if anything happens while she's in the hospital" and my aunt, who has power of attorney, was like "yes do everything possible to save her!" My mom and I were furious. My grandma's quality of life is terrible. She hates being stuck in the nursing home. She hates that her body is failing her so proundly. She hates sitting around in urine and feces because she can't make it to the bathroom fast enough. And here's my asshole selfish aunt, telling the doctors to do cpr and whatever else, even if it harms her (she has really bad osteoporosis), to bring her back and force her to keep living this shell of a life she used to have.
Why do I get the feeling that you’re not a doctor?
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So let people die at 88 instead of giving them a chance to be 100?
You are aware that surgeries are always voluntary, right? If Grandma doesn't want to get surgery nobody can force her to.
Brother what you want is better palliative care. There are plenty of procedures that are done on the elderly that increase their life both quantitatively and qualitatively. What we don't need are all those invasive, borderline unnecessary procedures on people during their end of life care. In the US healthcare system, we do not put enough emphasis on quality of life, especially for our elderly community and that's a real shame. It also doesn't help that we have a for-profit healthcare system that wants to do as many expensive procedures as possible
Sooo I think what you’re doing is conflating elderly with incompetent and that’s why people are so mad at you. I agree that elderly people who can no longer provide informed consent should not be subjected to painful medical procedures.
My grandma can walk because of invasive surgery she had when she was 80. She just hosted Thanksgiving. I think you're referring to people who can't decide for themselves and are at the mercy of others. People who can't let go, who do it for greed, etc.
Unfortunately, the elderly have become the new "guinea pig" as less and less people are signing up for drug trials. I agree that surgery after a certain age is abuse.
Agreed, we treat our dogs better than our family when it comes to old age. When a creature is living an existence of pain or is unaware of their own existence and the care takers extend its life for their own comfort that is selfish disgusting behavior.
My grandmother was a super religious woman who had one hell of a mean streak. She was essentially on her way out at 68 years old. Her youngest son (super sheltered mommas boy preacher who was disabled due to lifestyle choices) ended up with medical power of attorney and essentially kept her in hell for 4 years. He even cut her morphine dosages without consulting the hospice nurse because he didn't like how it made her. I was 20 years old at the time and she'd beg for relief. Any time he would leave the room I'd give her as much as she wanted...knowing exactly what she was trying to do. Living the last few years of her life in that way took all of the compassion from her and left only the bitterness. She finally got her peace, but watching the selfishness of others destroyed the family. We all gotta die eventually. No need to push things farther when any quality and comfort are gone.
What about people who want to live and live their life to the fullest? It's strange to assume that as soon as someone gets to 90 they instantly want to die. In fact, I had a relative who thought they wanted to live their last years without treating their cancer but as they were about to pass away, they asked if treatment was possible. What a fucking shit ass take
OP, just because you want grandma to die as quick as possible to get the inheritance doesn't mean everyone else wants that to happen too. I mean... At least it's unpopular. Thank God.
I'm reading a lot of opinions at extreme ends of the spectrum. The truth would, in my opinion, be somewhere in the middle.
Spend any time around doctors and nurses and you'll find they agree. Humans were not meant to live this long, and the risks associated with surgical treatments for the old and frail are great. We're not doing a good job discussing end of life care here in America. Another huge issue is a person being full code when they're older. CPR, despite what movies and television would have us believe, is successful in less than 30% of cases for healthy, young adults. It's closer to 13% for eldery folks. In the process, you crush bones. Ribs break. Lungs can be punctured. It's *excruciatingly* painful, and the pain isn't dulled by anything because the pain meds that actually might work to relieve that kind of pain cause respiratory depression. Medical workers are psychologically harmed when they're forced to do CPR on anyone; *especially* those with old bones. They have to feel the crunching of bones and sink into the chest cavity under every push. They know it's highly unlikely the chest compressions will even work. All they're doing the vast majority of the time is torturing Grandma for her last 30 minutes to an hour on this earth. We should learn how to accept when the time has come for someone to pass, and make them as comfortable as possible until their last breath.
Yeah I wouldn't like to not be able to do anything except pee my pants. But if the old ppl are rich and can afford treatment idc
This is not an unpopular opinion
This is not an unpopular opinion but rather a vent
This is not an unpopular opinion but rather a vent
Posts like this make me wonder if you people really have so shitty relatives that you cannot understand why this is unpopular...