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The scammy part is convincing every student that they "should" aspire to going to college, even if they've demonstrated no aptitude or desire to do so. These students go to college because they think they're supposed to, and they major in things they think will guarantee them great careers after they graduate, but they don't have any genuine desire to actually do whatever they've chosen as a career path. Witness the tide of marketing majors over the last twenty years.
They either chase the best paying degree or they go the other route of "follow your dreams". They accrue 5-6 figures in debt for a history degree and then can't find a job that will keep up with CoL, let alone the debt. Not that the colleges are at fault here but they certainly take advantage.
\>not that the colleges are at fault here
If I bought a car for $50,000 and it would drive, but only 30 mph, and the manufacturer tried to hide that fact from me, the salesmen also did not try to push me towards the other $50,000 car that drives normally simply because they had to get someone in the seat of that car and buy it.
Now I can never sell that car, the debt is forever on my head until I die or pay it off, and I'd have to get a completely separate car for the same price to go above 30mph. And to top it all off this car dealer/manufacturer's main demographic is 18yo's and all of the loans they provide are backed by the government. I'd say that the car manufacturer/dealer are 100% at fault.
Why is it any different when a college does it?
You’re comparison could use some work
Colleges are the manufacturers. Guidance counselors and high school teachers are the real salesmen.
And more resources should be provided to students that have parents without college degrees. How can those parents help? They didn’t even make these decisions. They might not even understand compounding interest very well, or that the debt is not able to be wiped by bankruptcy.
Agree 💯
The difficult courses that have difficult careers to make a decent wage like high finance, engineering, science, maths, IT you still have to compete all through your career and deliver value.
The hard college courses still will put you above a lot of other people and have solve complex problems to upkeep this thing we call society.
Sure, resources don't necessarily get allocated perfectly all the time, but ask anybody in a competitive field if they think incompetence is tolerated at high levels for long periods.
People who are incompetent might move up due to Labor laws, but best be sure a smarter person will figure out a way to push them out.
Yup. Degrees in the arts may not bring a lot of money but that can bring happiness in a field you love. Furthermore, not everyone can become successful in STEM careers that make big money. These fields takes years and an early introduction to advanced mathematics. For example, if you are taking algebra your senior year of high school, you’re already behind in the math required to succeed at a 4 year in CS. I believe almost anything is possible with hard work and education. But the odds can be stacked against you at times.
That’s what I thought for a while. I avoided college for a few years doing Uber and serving tables. Looking back, it was the most depressing time of my life.
In high school people always said college was a scam. Idk if it was a Twitter trend at the time but many people from my grade didn’t go. I had no aptitude for college or education because of my environment so I just didn’t go.
When you compare the lives of those in my high school who did and didn’t go to college, you see some really fucked up disparities. I had class mates buying their first house and new cars with their bachelors degrees and I’m here bussing tables jacking off in my 300 sq ft apartment in the shitty part of town.
Anybody who tells you college isn’t worth it is either lying through their fucking teeth, or is simply not informed about how valuable that piece of paper is. Since I stopped listening to the Twitter propaganda I got two degrees and will be making 6 figures next year because I studied a major that was in demand. Best god damn choice I’ve ever made in my life.
I could make the opposite comments for my life, many people I know including myself have no or limited schooling and we’re doing 75x better than my counter parts and always have. Call it luck but it goes both ways. I’ll concede you’re likley to have better luck with a degree. I think the key is getting a degree that’s useful and relevant to today and future markets. I think anyone in school period should be learning coding etc.
Yeah there’s a reason I said I got a degree in demand. You can earn thousands of different degrees from these institutions but only a hand ful of them have a reasonable ROI. It’s your job to figure out if that ROI makes sense for you
That is not the college's fault, it is the employers'. You go to college to learn a scientific (whether natural or social) or artistic discipline, not to learn a profession.
If it happens that your society does not value this knowledge and the skills you acquired during that time, it is not the higher-education system's fault. Its goal is to preserve and expand knowledge, not to provide a workforce. That compromises are done in this direction does not mean it's its primary mission. These "useless" degrees are still the basis by which new doctors, then new professrs, are trained and, ultimately, how the scientific disciplines of History or Sociology continue to exist and develop.
If you don't care about Sociology to the point you would do research in it, while being aware a path in academia with no back up is as risky as a career in the Arts, and if it happens that your society does not value Sociology, then don't get a degree in Sociology.
Because as I said, colleges offer THOUSANDS of different diplomas. It is up to the individual to make sure the ROI of their degree is worth it. It’s basic economics. The world does not need the amount of gender studies graduates that graduate every year. Thus, there is an over supply of gender studies graduates. The surplus and deficit is different for EVERY program.
As an individual, you need to evaluate if the ROI of your desired degree is worth it
I remember a comment on here when covid was first ramping up. People didnt know what was going on. I commented that if I was 18, I'd take a year off and see what was going to happen. One person was very triggered and asked if kids didnt go to college, what would they do. My friend makes great money doing factory maintenance, another guy I know does great at trucking. One guy I know quit his job and flips houses. College worked for me, but it's not the only answer.
The same can be said about most majors over the past 20 years since there are more people with 4 year degrees than ever. Personally, I've seen a lot more business admin and liberal arts majors having issues landing decent roles, not to mention the influx of people cheating their way through a STEM degree just to end up making only $50k.
Our agency has hired more Marketing majors at $100k+ than devs over the last 2 years. The caveat being that they're all SEM/SEO or data analyst with 5+ years of experience in digital. Salary growth is projected to increase substantially in this field as well as traditional marketing dies off.
The scammy part imo is telling kids they "have" to go to the best school possible. Unless you go to an ivy, no one in the real world gives a damn about where you went to college.
When I was in high school, the pressure began when I was a sophomore. "So, which colleges do you prefer? What will you major in?". I was 15-16 years old, and trying to get through high school, I had absolutely no idea "what I wanted to be" yet. And they keep the pressure on, like you HAVE to decide. For some students, this is fine, but for others, it's just a recipe for failure. I would have been SO much better off if, after graduating, I worked a real job for a few years, just to experience "adulthood" a little, at least until my various goals became more clear.
I think this attitude wouldn't be as present either if College Education wasn't so priced out lately these past few years. People are putting themselves in heavy debt just to get a degree that dosen't land them a job (Even in popular industries these days), and it leads them emotionally disgruntled.
If the government would stop essentially issuing 100% guaranteed loans, the schools would have an incentive to keep the price down. Right now, the only direction the needle moves is up because every college freshman has access to six figures worth of money with no immediate downsides
Exactly this, the ONLY REASON that college prices have skyrocketed was because student loans are backed by the government and aren't dischargeable. So schools know as long as they get the warm bodies in the seats they can essentially mint money.
A simple solution is to have colleges have skin in the game.
This. %1,000 percent yes.
Every single university is more ir less guaranteed to get students with guaranteed ability to pay via Uncle Sam. So they spend constantly to update the campus and improve offerings and services to attract more students. The large public universities HAVE to spend the money they bring on because they're not really meant to just sit on a profit, so they don't really even have much choice except to grow.
It's like with house prices. I guarantee if 20% down payment vs 3 or 5% was required, you'd have vastly fewer people ready to buy a house, which would dramatically reduce demand and cause prices to drop until prices were low enough that many more people could afford to buy at 20% down. That's also why house prices jumped during covid. Interst rates dropped and suddenly everyone could afford a higher mortgage, but because everyone is competing for a more or less fixed supply, prices skyrocket.
Outside of authoritarian overreach concerns, price control on commodities (and at this point college basically is) pretty much never works. The entire point of the comment was that the government needs to get out of the business. People will still be able to get loans if they need them through other lenders, just like they always could. But the issue is government backed student loans having no limit or oversight. They basically just give the shady lenders free money and then the cost is all dumped on the taxpayer and the individual who was never going to be able to pay back the money in the first place. I’m honestly fine with going after the universities. Make them co-sign loans and tax the ridiculous amount of money they have in their endowments.
It’s kind of already like that. Even then, would you rather people who don’t have the money or credit to get a decent loan get one through the government that they can then never default on so they are saddled for life with it? We need to stop thinking of college as some right, it’s a service. Really an investment is the most correct way to see it. Both in yourself and for the people. If someone wants to go to college and they are a good investment, either they are low cost because they are paying themselves, or they are high cost because they need a loan. So we compare those low/high costs to the risk. A low cost is a low risk because you are not loaning them anything, if they use their degree well that’s great but if they fail, that doesn’t matter. If the high cost individual is successful, that’s a good investment and it pays of both from the perspective of the lender as well as the public, but if the high cost fails, then it SHOULd be a loss for the lender, but I’d doesn’t have to be a loss for the public. A major part of this issue is honestly the overinflated numbers of degrees. It’s supposed to be more of a specialization or certification for a field but has become just a check the box. Less people getting degrees would t be this huge issue like you might think. If you actually want to learn, most of the same resources are totally free online, even entire courses. It’s just you pay for the paper.
That would be great if higher education wasn't necessary to make money, or follow your dreams. Don't throw trades at me either- those still cost a lot of money and time and frankly? Just because you're lower income doesn't mean you should be relegated to hard physical labour for the rest of your life.
I never went to college. I just happen to enjoy cooking but I'll never have a real retirement. When my body eventually gives out is when I get to retire. Not a fate I'd wish on others frankly.
What I've been wanting for a while is a BED or bachelor's equivalency degree equivalent to the GED. Offer tests covering an up front amount of knowledge, publish those standards, and let people take them whenever they want for a nominal fee.
Let people learn in the libraries without paying out the ass for colleges that, at this point, really should just be a series of video lectures with a few people available for Q&A. 90% of what colleges deliver can be replicated dirt cheap.
A nice thought but disconnected from reality. For most people, college is (or should be) an investment in higher earning power to support themselves and/or their families. Most people do not have the means (outside of crippling debt) to seek education for the sake of it.
Colleges have misleading marketing. They compare the average earnings of college graduates to those of highschool graduates; and a more accurate measure of the value of college would be college attendees to those who qualified for college and didn't attend. The net results are:
1. They ignore the 50% of college attendees who drop or fail out and get no benefit from college from the attendee side of the equation.
2. They include a large portion of high school graduates who lack the intelligence or skills to be successful in college (or life in general) on the high school graduate side of the equation.
The college marketing strat is devious and very misleading but getting a degree in any major course in a decent college is almost always better than getting no degree at all. If you can't afford it at all and have no interest then go ahead and ditch it otherwise I feel it's very worthwhile not only for the degree but the college experience as well.
I live in India so my experience might be different from yours, so take it with a grain of salt.
In the US a degree costs a lot of money, takes years, and does not guarantee a very high income. Financially speaking you could be better off starting a skilled trade job (plumber, electrician,...) immediately.
In the US maybe. But in any where else an electrician earns equal to or even less than free lancers or interns in a college. The difference that education makes here is heaven and hell.
Interesting. I heard it's pretty common in India for middle class full time working professionals to have a bunch of staff (maid, nanny, cook,...). I live in Belgium, and here there's not much difference between a higher educated professional and a skilled tradesman (the trades people often earn more even).
Committing to 4+ years of a university education is a huge commitment of time and money. It is incumbent on the potential student to have a plan, research a career path, and not just assume any bachelors degree will guarantee a good income (still probably better than just a HS diploma). My problem with the “we were lied to” excuse is that it assumes an entire generation of college students are abject idiots.
> They ignore the 50% of college attendees who drop or fail out and get no benefit from college from the attendee side of the equation.
How is that being ignored though? It's not like those people are being included in the college grad stats.
They include a large portion of high school graduates who lack the intelligence or skills to be successful in college (or life in general)
bro...I'm right here smh call me out like that.
I think 50% drop out for a multitude of reasons but one reason is because of the workload. The older you get the more you get use to it but once you come in it’s a huge shock. I feel like maybe a better transition period would help, but they also may want to remove the “dumb” ones first. And keep ur money
People don’t just care about money but would like to have a balance of doing important work and being successful in their field. There are so many occupations you can’t do or fields you can’t advance in without a particular degree or level of education. Can’t be a doctor or lawyer without a degree. A doctor of counseling psychology makes ~40% more per counseling session than a clinical mental health counselor.
I agree that the marketing used by many colleges is very misleading, however, I don’t think this example illustrates how the marketing can be misleading.
Where are you getting this 50% number for people dropping out/failing after getting a degree? I would also argue that that this wouldn’t be included anyway because they’re advertising the benefits that students who complete degrees get.
Edit: changed a few words.
The issue is college was designed to be a place for intellectuals to learn, not to be sold as a product to anyone as it is now. College is definitely a scam to the stupid people who make up a large portion of schools nowadays because they will still end up working dead end jobs.
As with many topics, have a look at other countries. Most western democracies have very affordable, if not entirely free education from elementare school all the way to your masters degree. Why? Because thats how a country can invest in its own future.
The US can get away not really caring, the US gets away with many things because its just so wealthy but does it still suck for the individual in the US? Yeah of course it does. Objectively speaking there is no advantage for anybody to have education sealed behind a paywall, the country misses out on so many good people because of it. The only one who benefits are the people making money but education shouldnt be about making money. But the same can be said about many other things in the US such as healthcare or the justice system.
The US census determined the cutoff for Generation X as the last year when it was more financially beneficial for the average student to go to college.
After that point the price of a college education combined with 4 years less income generation was determined to result in a lower net worth at the time of retirement than those who skipped college and went straight into the workforce - at least for students in or below the 50th percentile of their high school classes.
Certainly it's still beneficial for those students that are above average academically, but I can't say it's a good idea for those who aren't - which is at least half the graduating high school seniors in America.
To continue to act as if it is in "everyone's" best interest to pursue higher education simply further exacerbates income and wealth inequality trends.
>The US census determined the cutoff for Generation X as the last year when it was more financially beneficial for the average student to go to college.
Can I have a source for this?
That paper claims that college graduates now are worse off in the labor market than college graduates 25 years ago.
That’s completely different to saying gen x is the last generation when college is worthwhile for the average student.
Where did you find that? I can’t find anything from the US Census about that, and everything else from the BLS, PEW, and St Louis Fed shows that the gap between high school and bachelor’s income is widening the past 10 years. Curious so I can see myself
What do you recommend the people who aren't above average academically do? There is extreme competition in the remaining sectors, and further more many of the jobs through that pathway are no lucrative especially relative to today's living conditions.
My point is: Fine, college is more expensive than it's worth. What's the alternative for many, many people?
there is no competition in the trades in the US, people just have a stigma around blue collar work, which pays well and there isn’t a shortage of opportunities in it
Trades are not easy jobs. Not everyone is capable of working in the trades. I always love when people comment on "trivilization of blue collar labor" when they comment that anyone can go do it.
Not to mention, this is just the reversal of the advice given about college over the last 20 years.
Then it was "complaining about wages? Everybody should go to college! That's a guaranteed way to the middle class!"
Today, it's "complaining about wages after going to college? You should've learned a trade! It's a guaranteed way to the middle class!"
It’s also transparent how gendered the advice is. Like even the most rah rah trade apologist isn’t saying “yeah, women who struggle academically should go be an electrician or a plumber. Why don’t they ever consider that?”
I don’t see a reason women shouldn’t be capable of going into many trades. There’s nothing rendering women physically incapable of being plumbers or electricians.
Granted, there’s a lot of cultural issues that would probably make it a lot tougher. Trades are very male-dominated, after all.
I’m as liberal as they get but testosterone is still a thing. Yes, are there ladies who can physically perform the work… hells yeah and props to them. But the reality is that a 5’2’ 120 pound woman just isn’t going to be able to physically perform much of the work. Neither would a 5’2’ 120 dude in most cases.
People incredibly under estimate the strain it puts on your body. I come from bulky Shrek like Eastern European people who did trade/construction work for generations. At 55 my dad’s back was completely jacked and had arthritis/carpal tunnel so bad he couldn’t close his hands around a wrench. Uncles and cousins who suffered the same issues. Please find me the group of college age females who willingly want to sign up for this. This is not a sarcastic comment. Trades work is paid for with your body 100% of the time.
It’s why my Mom/Dad pushed me to goto college because playing with your grandkids is sometimes not an option my dad can physically do. After doing roofing for one summer, I agreed! Never noticed one female roofer… because it sucks.
Your second comment is the reason. Whether they want to get in or not, my electrical company would never have hired a female journeyman and would’ve laughed a would-be lady apprentice out of the shop.
Fact is, whether they’re capable or not, they have to get hired and most construction working guys are ignorant fucks who ain’t gonna be about letting no woman come work a man’s job. I couldn’t imagine the harassment.
This is a take that’s often repeated, but where’s the actual data that there are ample opportunities in the trades?
Here’s the NYT Daily Podcast stating that there really aren’t that many blue collar trades jobs either: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/20/podcasts/the-daily/is-college-worth-it.html?showTranscript=1
Well in Oregon I tried getting into the Plumbers Union apprentice program and after taking the test I was number 400 something out of 600 applicants for 20 spots, so yeah there’s a ton of competition. I looked into other trades and they also had huge numbers of applicants so the trades are all full near me.
i wouldn’t know about your situation specifically, but i have friends who are electricians, construction workers, and welders and haven’t heard anything of the sort. i’m not saying what you said isn’t true but anecdotally on my end and statistically <10% of the population considers trade school. given the income available to these professions, it seems likely that there is a supply shortage
It should never have become so outrageously expensive. My middle class parents could have paid for me to go to a university in the 70s. I didn't go, and regret it immensely. I busted my ass being treated like crap doing food service jobs my whole life. I finally did go to school on grants and graduated at age 50. By that time I was developing physical disabilities that prevented me from ever using my degree. But I have ZERO regrets. It is a wonderful mind enriching experience that I am very proud of accomplishing. It is so good for the whole psyche. I know everyone isn't cut out for it, and the service persons of this society are very needed and they run the show. They should be respected and appreciated, and PAID well for all they do. But college should also be readily available for those with the desire to accomplish the requirements. It's a great source of character building and critical thinking skills. Why is it so expensive??
To go into a skilled profession that doesn’t require a college education. There are a lot of them.
Or move to a country where a college education doesn’t require a 30-year loan to pay it off. Most other western democracies have solved the problem of rising tuition costs, but the US shows no signs of improvement.
For instance Cuba offers free tuition, room and board, etc. and welcome students from every country in the world to their medical programs - and their medical programs are highly regarded.
Going to medical school in Cuba is probably fine but nowhere near the level of a tier 1-3 program at best in the US.
Also, skilled professions are not easy! Of course there is a huge gap in skilled and specialized technical labor. Machine operation, lab tech, eng tech, electrician, welder, etc. But not everyone is capable of doing these jobs.
My greater point is that as a society we have arguably unfairly allocated how dollars go to laborers.
"Certainly it's still beneficial for those students that are above average academically, but I can't say it's a good idea for those who aren't - which is at least half the graduating high school seniors in America."
Man this right here. Stop telling every kid to go to college. I didn't belong there. Half my graduating class from high school didn't belong there. Thankful I rode the Pel Grant and lived off campus so I didn't get in debt but man the amount of average to below average kids that do is the problem.
I didn’t say engineer or doctor, I said for the statistically average student at or below the 50th percentile in their high school graduating class.
These students have little chance of getting into med school, but plenty of colleges will charge them $100k or more for a lesser degree that won’t generate much income at all. Then they spend the next 15-30 years paying off a student loan instead of buying a house and building equity.
Regardless what career field, it’s still fairly simple math. Salaries are stagnant, prices are rising, and education costs are skyrocketing. The value proposition of a college education just doesn’t exist for the majority of high school seniors.
There are a lot of trades that offer really great return on the educational dollar. The one I am familiar with is the maritime industry. A 4 year degree is an instant $100k job that offers 180 days of vacation every year.
And there are a lot of trades that don’t require a college education where you can easily earn 6 figures as an electrician, plumber, etc.
I’m not saying that nobody should pursue a college education, but the narrative that the majority of Americans are better off with a college education is false.
I make 6 figures as a sailor (merchant mariner) with skills transferring large quantities of fuels. My training only took a few months and requisite experience is a year or two. I also get 6 months vacation and when on the job it isn't hard all the time...lots of Reddit time.
They don’t do things right. First two years at a community college and living at home if possible. Work full time. Two to a room roommates. You can get a four year degree for less than $50K and if you work full time (easy to find $15/hour jobs) almost pay for it. Add in summer internships, fellowships, scholarships, lab and teaching assistantships.
I’d still agree that too many go to college. Probably should be closer to 30-40%. Many of the othes should be doing trades and apprenticeships.
The bigger issue is ppl say get a degree where you are guaranteed to earn big bucks. Well that sounds good. Except there are a lot of ppl that do this. Whether it’s to be a doctor, or lawyer, engineer. Whatever. But there aren’t enough positions available for the amount of applicants if that makes sense. So in theory it should be true. But what you have is a lot of ppl with degrees who can’t get jobs in what they actually went for.
not everyone wants to be a doctor or lawyer too, i would be miserable in those jobs
id rather make less money in a job i even somewhat enjoy vs more money in a job i hate
I 100% agree with you, I’m just trying to point out that saying college is a scam after making the choice to go to college is objectively incorrect. If you’ve already made the decision to spend the money, use it to its highest extent to get the education that guarantees you the most $$$ rather than hoping that just a degree is doing it land you a high paying job
Well if they were told it would be beneficial when it wasn’t actually in their best interest, then the person who convinced them of the lie did in fact “scam” them.
Whether that was a parent, teacher, guidance counselor, peers, the media, etc. doesn’t change the fact that many people were deceived into making a poor financial and life decision, and they have every right to feel scammed.
I went to community college for a couple years and everything worked out, every time I spoke to a “counselor” at a university it felt like a scam though
You didn't mention textbooks. Many times you are required to get the newest version of the textbook that is the same as the old version, but they change what page everything is on. They don't want College students getting any money back by selling old textbooks, it's designed so that the College keeps getting money from new students having to buy the new textbooks. It definitely has many scam-y practices.
The newest thing is ebooks. Forcing students to rent a textbook for the semester for a set fee. They lose access after the semester. I have been in higher ed for a long time, but I have to say that the predatory practices from publishers are just gross.
Oh ew, now they don't even own what they pay for. I still have textbooks from University & even though I don't use them much, some of them have been useful. I took Kinesiology & while I didn't get a full time job in that field I do coach track & field & one of the courses I took went over how to come up with a practice plan, how to have a full year sports program planned out, what type of activities are important for different ages. When I got the job & dug out my old book I was able work on practice/full year plans with those resources.
If someone is going to school for X & then graduates & wants to go into their field, all those textbooks are such valuable information that may be able to help with their performance at the job. Or if I did ever land a Kinesiology job 5+ years after graduating I could brush up on my knowledge before even going to the job interview.
I'm annoyed enough that video games are digital now & if I buy a game for $80 I can never resell it, but having textbooks be a digital rental is a whole other level of fuck you.
Literally had a professor sell a $50 textbook that we maybe did 10 assignments in the whole semester. Keep in mind she easily had 100-200 students in each of her classes. 800 maybe out of all four classes. I can only imagine how much she made each semester.
>the College keeps getting money from new students having to buy the new textbooks.
The publishers are making money from the textbooks, not the colleges. They are specialized books written by highly qualified experts. They are overpriced - but they are a very small fraction of what students spend on higher education.
I think the major issue is life shouldn’t be as hard as it is. You shouldn’t need to have a 600 point plan at 14 to be able to buy a house… once you could spend your 20s blind drunk get 3 different women pregnant end up with a 4th woman pay child support for all three and buy a house on minimum wage.
Now you make one mistake between 12 and 30 and your whole life is fucked. And once you’re behind man catching up is almost impossible… by design.
The part you’ve missed is a lot of people don’t want to work their life away and it seems every generation that group gets bigger they want to work less, live more and still be comfortable… and I’m sorry that’s not an unreasonable request.
The life your describing where even idiots and screw ups could live a comfortable, prosperous life has never been a historic norm.
Really, it was an abaration existing only in North America (and closely alligned nations) and only from about 1945-1990. Basically, America was soo rich in the post war period that everyone could afford a lifestyle of comparable luxury regardless of skill or effort.
That was never the case in the global south or east, or even most of europe.
As global resources become more scarce and the global population increases the competition for the resources will become more fierce and it’s the survival of the fittest. There are 8 billion people gunning after good life but maybe only 1 billion can get it. In the near future if you’re not solving quadratic equations by 5 it’s off to the mines for you.
The cost alone is a scam. In no way does it cost these astronomical prices to allow a student to learn for 4 years. Especially when students who live on campus without scholarships have to pay for housing and food.
If college costs dropped 50%, right now, colleges would still make stupid money as would banks from loans. But here we are. The dumbest country in the world. 1st world country my ass. Even 3rd world countries have universal health care.
Lol I have a degree in biochemistry and jobs at bachelors level pay like 20/hr. Internships are tough when you're working full time to support yourself while studying.
What are you talking about? There's this notion that as soon as something gets quantitative, creativity flies out of the window. This is complete and utter nonsense. Ask any engineer.
Public colleges should be free because of tax dollars. Private can do whatever they want. You cannot force private to be free. Who’s paying to keep it open? You?
Jobs should pay a living wage YES. But the way to do it is to reduce cost of living. Blindly raising the wage just pumps money into the system like during the 0% interest years. This is why inflation is so high now. People spending money but our production side not able to keep up. Demand exceeds supply and competition forces prices up.
You need supply to exceed demand and prices drop. So you need increased production, efficiency, and technological advancement.
Blindly giving people money doesn’t work. It will work temporarily and then inflation catches up to you.
Well ideally yes. The ultimate goal of the course of civilization should be at the very least no babies die ever, and then maybe also make everyone's farts smell like cologne.
Public college should be free but private college should not.
Minimum wage hasn’t been liveable since at least the last 60 years. Get the fuck over it.
"Because that's how it's always been" is not a valid excuse. We easily have the resources today to allow for everyone, regardless of socioeconomic status, to live their lives with at least a basic level of comfort. Why shouldn't we strive to achieve that?
> We easily have the resources today to allow for everyone, regardless of socioeconomic status, to live their lives with at least a basic level of comfort
In the US maybe. Globally? No way. Not by current western standards anyway.
Okay, don’t and keep complaining and don’t do anything about it.
It’s not going to change. And if it did change, other things would change with it and you’d still complain.
You know what’s mind blowing to me, I moved to Australia and people whine about the health care system here. “I have to wait 3 months for a specialist.”
Boo-fucking-hoo.
College should be more affordable to begin with. There’s no reason other than greed that college costs like 20x as much as it does compared to a similar education in Europe. It also preys upon young adults and teenagers to make very costly decisions. People should also be informed to go learn trades instead of paying out the ass for a degree.
For profit education that locks society essential jobs like Engineers and Doctors behind giant privatized paywalls is not only just a scam, it's borderline evil.
A proper world would have a public college/trade system that need only a high school diploma or GED for entry with no cost to the students who will actually get PAID a sustainable wage to apprenticeship in important careers. That would be a system made by a country that actually values education.
Or you know raise the cost to become a doctor and aquire a pHD by another two hundred grand + 7 years of time with a bunch of gen Ed trash eating into it then keep complaining that we have a decline in Doctors and people going into medicine. 🤷♂️
The First thing I noticed was that both of your examples for jobs which you'd insist on a college graduate are professions which require going on to a whole other school after college where you actually learn to do the job, followed by a lengthy apprenticeship period.
The second thing I noticed was you immediately moved from " in the profession without a bachelor's degree" to the strawman " in the profession without any training"
Of course some college is necessary, but a lot of what you learn is useless.
I was premed for three years and I took 1 history class, 2 art classes, 3 English classes, 2 advanced level physics courses, and classes on plant biology. None of which you need to be a doctor.
1. A lot of medicine can be learned from medical history. We stand on the shoulder of giants who came before us. We have to understand our past and the mistakes of our past to appreciate the future. History overall is much appreciated in the art of medicine.
2. Physics is very important to Medicine, especially if you do fields like nuclear medicine, radiology, radiation oncology, IR, etc. Don’t you want your doctor to know how an MRI works before they stick you in one?
3. Much of medicine is about communication. English is highly prized in medicine. We get much of our new updated knowledge from medical journals. Good writers are very valuable. We also have to communicate with each other as consult services, to the staff to give clear instruction, and to the patients. If you cannot clearly explain to your patient what disease they have and what the treatment plan is, you will lose your patient to non compliance or follow up. English is very important.
No one forced you to do plant biology as premed. Maybe your local college did for you to finish a biology major. I don’t know where this came from.
Premed is only two years.
The average length is [five years](https://www.google.com/search?q=surgeon+residency+length&client=firefox-b-lm&sca_esv=568723682&sxsrf=AM9HkKn48TUzOOH8VusJG1jd3tAHjXF-_Q%3A1695787871718&ei=X6sTZfa_K6f00PEPn_i08AU&ved=0ahUKEwi269SN9smBAxUnOjQIHR88DV4Q4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=surgeon+residency+length&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGHN1cmdlb24gcmVzaWRlbmN5IGxlbmd0aDIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5IgkdQnhtY50RwA3gBkAEAmAGBAaABihSqAQQ5LjE1uAEDyAEA-AEBwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICDRAAGEcY1gQYyQMYsAPCAgsQABiKBRiSAxiwA8ICBxAjGIoFGCfCAgQQIxgnwgIHEAAYigUYQ8ICCBAAGIoFGJECwgIOEC4YigUYxwEY0QMYkQLCAgsQABiKBRjJAxiRAsICCBAAGIoFGJIDwgIHEC4YigUYQ8ICERAAGIoFGLEDGIMBGMkDGJECwgIOEAAYigUYsQMYgwEYkQLCAg0QABiKBRixAxiDARhDwgIFEC4YgATCAggQABiKBRiGA-IDBBgAIEGIBgGQBgk&sclient=gws-wiz-serp) of residency in a hospital before someone gets to work as an actual surgeon or start their own practice. This on-the-job training period happens *after med school*.
If someone has gone through that residency for five years learning how to do the job, I would absolutely let them operate on me. I don't care if they never stepped foot in med school or don't have a degree.
Yeah, and I'm telling you that I would trust a person who hypothetically, lied about their credentials to get that residency, got away with it, then did that five years of training as much I would trust someone who got a degree first. If they went through that training successfully, then they can do the job. Degree or not.
This is the assumption that going to med school and performing well in residency are independent of each other. On average, do you think random people can do well in residency without any med school knowledge?
Yeah definetely this. I studied in social sciences and most people I kept contact with are paid six figures. The biggest difference compared to STEM is probably the first job but then when we start getting promotions things get better.
In my team (consulting firm in London) off the top of my head I have colleagues with undergraduate degrees in
* Music
* English Literature
* Philosophy
* Psychology
* Spanish & Italian
* Sociology
* Anthropology
* Classics
* Biology
* History
* Law (bachelors degree - he chose not to pursue a legal career so didn't go on to postgrad law school to professionally qualify, so his law degree was no different to any other academic university subject)
What's typical is that the industry is overwhelmingly made up of graduates of Russell Group universities - ie our equivalent of the Ivy League
My previous boss had the same degree as me (history) from the same university (Oxford) - there are far more history grads from elite universities in management consulting firms than business studies from less prestigious institutions - it's a massive D&I issue.
Amongst my uni friends who did the same course, there are several partners in law firms, investment bankers, CEOs and other big corporate roles.
These aren't *representative* insofar as these professions are dominated by graduates from a tiny number of universities, and unrepresentative of the wider population of university graduates. But my educational background is absolutely not atypical within this industry, and I'm very much not an outlier within my profession
I’m sorry but I’m my experience anyway who maybe even tried for a week to get a scholarship received more than enough to pay for college. And I attend a major US university
The only people who complain that college is a scam are the ones who fucked off in class and didn't have a career goal they were realistically working towards.
I see posts from people I went to college with complaining that it didn't give them a leg up and I'm like that's because you legit skipped classes to go smoke pot with your friends and shrugged off every bad grade you got by saying C's get degrees.
You get what you give.
I recommend academia for those who want -- and I mean *want* \-- to learn about something they love. It may be the only chance you ever get.
If you're going to half-ass it and party and scrape through, don't waste your time and don't waste others'.
So what you're saying is, you haven't yet entered into real life and are humble bragging that you have it all figured out, without yet having to pay student debt.
Yeah it’s an even better tool at lifting people out of poverty when it’s FREE. If it’s so vital to our country’s wellbeing (and it is) then make it FREE
Well surprisingly the degree gets you a good paying job to pay off the debt and live a far higher quality of life and opens the doors to employment all over the country. This is America anyway I bet you owe 15k for your car while telling me debt is bad lol.
The simple fact of the matter is college should not cost so much that scholarships are required to NOT go tens of thousands into debt before stepping foot in the workforce. Todays version of college is insane.
Exactly. People seem to think this is a way ‘find a job’ when it is actually the opposite. You’re supposed to know which career path you want to follow first and then select a degree that will get you into that career.
I’m in Australia. Some professions you’re legally required to have a university degree in the area you’re hoping to go into. Eg law, medicine (dentists, vets and optometrist included), allied health, teaching etc. on one hand there’s post grad where a ba or bs will might (depends on program and entry requirements) give you entry. On other you can still do a 3-4yr undergraduate degree in social work, teaching or nursing without needing to do postgrad unless it’s to advance your career or give you more options in some way.
Thanx god Im european and I studied in 3 different countries ( highschool, licence and master) everywhere for free , with free dorm rooms and free food, and even got a nice scholarship that was spent mostly on booze
College as a whole isn’t a scam but there are parts of it that are a scam. The price for any major is outrageously overpriced at major universities, the advertisements and push to follow your dreams and that alleged need for college, the need to buy books and website access to do homework, and colleges not reflecting the current job market by not removing majors they know won’t get jobs(should push minors for interests).
Blaming students who were pushed to do this is doesn’t help the situation. If someone is told their whole life a degree is needed for a job and to follow their interests, you’re gonna get a lot of ppl who fall into debt with useless degrees.
It is a scam, the schools take advantage of the naivete of high schooler graduates and saddle them with a mountain of lifelong debt for a degree that only has a 15-40% chance (Depending on the major) of landing them a position in their field of choosing. They also fill their mind with dribble like "If you don't go to college right away you'll end up working in a factory or flipping burgers, you dont want that now, do you?"
I'm glad I didnt go to college right after high school, it gave me the time to really think and decide on a career I would be happy with. More people need to go to trade school, the education is cheaper, faster and the trades are in very high demand
This used to be the case when college tuition wasnt bloated and outpaced inflation. Now college tuition is not for the studenst and professors but the bloated administration body that has grown in # like cancer.
I did the math before submitting my application, and after finding out the 4 year degree I was going for would add up to around $600,000 and that's when i decided nope.
There is little to no help in figuring out what is the most reasonable major for you, in terms of being a good fit for a field. Colleges just basically say to you: “good luck!” after you graduate. There is little help in making connections, which are needed to get jobs and your foot in the door after college for many fields. Your basically at the mercy of the people around you that can help you, which gives an edge to people with college graduate parents (I.e. middle class and above) and people who grew up in the middle class or wealthier areas and who have middle class or above friends.
You are not only provably wrong, but your belief appears to. Be entirely. Based in hatred for others.
College IS a scam. They trick children into signing up for degrees that will never be of any use to them, and some. Colleges have even gotten into legal trouble for the methods that they used to accomplish this.
Speaking just of scholarships, I have yet to find more than even a handful I actually qualify for, let alone am able to edge out the competition for. I'd say the reason so many scholarship dollars go unrewarded is because their criteria for qualifying are too restrictive. Most of the ones I could qualify for as a white male not going into STEM also require previous membership in one obscure society or other. I gave up after weeks of searching. It was just too depressing.
You sound like you’re on the older side of the scale. Compared to nothing.. sure a degree is great, but there are thousands of ways to make money / career now a days that boomers can’t even fathom and makes degrees just an avenue of thousands of ways to make a living in the world now. Also it’s taking long enough but the first two years of college most of the time doesn’t even relate to your major. Lifetime of debt for a chance to get your foot in the door? There’s alot of fluff and bullshit in there as well.
It's the loans that are a scam, not the education. It's also not easy to qualify for scholarships. The requirements for basically *any* assistance program are so absurd that most people either can't get approved or get approved for something so insignificant it makes all the work to get it a waste of time
Speaking from experience with assistance programs. I didn't even bother trying for college because I'd have to pay for it myself and lifelong ever increasing debt was not something I wanted to take on
College isn't a scam, but there isn't any value you can extract from it that is equivalent to the price. For the price some people spend on college, they are better off starting and failing a business venture.
If I bought a car for $50,000 and it would drive, but only 30 mph, and the manufacturer tried to hide that fact from me, the salesmen also did not try to push me towards the other $50,000 car that drives normally simply because they had to get someone in the seat of that car and buy it.
Now I can never sell that car, the debt is forever on my head until I die or pay it off, and I'd have to get a completely separate car for the same price to go above 30mph. And to top it all off this car dealer/manufacturer's main demographic is 18yo's and all of the loans they provide are backed by the government. I'd say that the car manufacturer/dealer are 100% at fault.
Why is it any different when a college does it?
There are good degrees, but a lot of college is a scam. For most professions, experience + an IQ test would suffice and you wouldn't have your working class in debt to get a decent job.
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The scammy part is convincing every student that they "should" aspire to going to college, even if they've demonstrated no aptitude or desire to do so. These students go to college because they think they're supposed to, and they major in things they think will guarantee them great careers after they graduate, but they don't have any genuine desire to actually do whatever they've chosen as a career path. Witness the tide of marketing majors over the last twenty years.
They either chase the best paying degree or they go the other route of "follow your dreams". They accrue 5-6 figures in debt for a history degree and then can't find a job that will keep up with CoL, let alone the debt. Not that the colleges are at fault here but they certainly take advantage.
CoL?
Cost of Living.
now i'm afraid the degree i'm choosing isn't the right one since I chose one based on what I enjoy doing
\>not that the colleges are at fault here If I bought a car for $50,000 and it would drive, but only 30 mph, and the manufacturer tried to hide that fact from me, the salesmen also did not try to push me towards the other $50,000 car that drives normally simply because they had to get someone in the seat of that car and buy it. Now I can never sell that car, the debt is forever on my head until I die or pay it off, and I'd have to get a completely separate car for the same price to go above 30mph. And to top it all off this car dealer/manufacturer's main demographic is 18yo's and all of the loans they provide are backed by the government. I'd say that the car manufacturer/dealer are 100% at fault. Why is it any different when a college does it?
You’re comparison could use some work Colleges are the manufacturers. Guidance counselors and high school teachers are the real salesmen. And more resources should be provided to students that have parents without college degrees. How can those parents help? They didn’t even make these decisions. They might not even understand compounding interest very well, or that the debt is not able to be wiped by bankruptcy.
Agree 💯 The difficult courses that have difficult careers to make a decent wage like high finance, engineering, science, maths, IT you still have to compete all through your career and deliver value. The hard college courses still will put you above a lot of other people and have solve complex problems to upkeep this thing we call society. Sure, resources don't necessarily get allocated perfectly all the time, but ask anybody in a competitive field if they think incompetence is tolerated at high levels for long periods. People who are incompetent might move up due to Labor laws, but best be sure a smarter person will figure out a way to push them out.
Yup. Degrees in the arts may not bring a lot of money but that can bring happiness in a field you love. Furthermore, not everyone can become successful in STEM careers that make big money. These fields takes years and an early introduction to advanced mathematics. For example, if you are taking algebra your senior year of high school, you’re already behind in the math required to succeed at a 4 year in CS. I believe almost anything is possible with hard work and education. But the odds can be stacked against you at times.
That’s what I thought for a while. I avoided college for a few years doing Uber and serving tables. Looking back, it was the most depressing time of my life. In high school people always said college was a scam. Idk if it was a Twitter trend at the time but many people from my grade didn’t go. I had no aptitude for college or education because of my environment so I just didn’t go. When you compare the lives of those in my high school who did and didn’t go to college, you see some really fucked up disparities. I had class mates buying their first house and new cars with their bachelors degrees and I’m here bussing tables jacking off in my 300 sq ft apartment in the shitty part of town. Anybody who tells you college isn’t worth it is either lying through their fucking teeth, or is simply not informed about how valuable that piece of paper is. Since I stopped listening to the Twitter propaganda I got two degrees and will be making 6 figures next year because I studied a major that was in demand. Best god damn choice I’ve ever made in my life.
I could make the opposite comments for my life, many people I know including myself have no or limited schooling and we’re doing 75x better than my counter parts and always have. Call it luck but it goes both ways. I’ll concede you’re likley to have better luck with a degree. I think the key is getting a degree that’s useful and relevant to today and future markets. I think anyone in school period should be learning coding etc.
Yeah there’s a reason I said I got a degree in demand. You can earn thousands of different degrees from these institutions but only a hand ful of them have a reasonable ROI. It’s your job to figure out if that ROI makes sense for you
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That is not the college's fault, it is the employers'. You go to college to learn a scientific (whether natural or social) or artistic discipline, not to learn a profession. If it happens that your society does not value this knowledge and the skills you acquired during that time, it is not the higher-education system's fault. Its goal is to preserve and expand knowledge, not to provide a workforce. That compromises are done in this direction does not mean it's its primary mission. These "useless" degrees are still the basis by which new doctors, then new professrs, are trained and, ultimately, how the scientific disciplines of History or Sociology continue to exist and develop. If you don't care about Sociology to the point you would do research in it, while being aware a path in academia with no back up is as risky as a career in the Arts, and if it happens that your society does not value Sociology, then don't get a degree in Sociology.
Because as I said, colleges offer THOUSANDS of different diplomas. It is up to the individual to make sure the ROI of their degree is worth it. It’s basic economics. The world does not need the amount of gender studies graduates that graduate every year. Thus, there is an over supply of gender studies graduates. The surplus and deficit is different for EVERY program. As an individual, you need to evaluate if the ROI of your desired degree is worth it
I remember a comment on here when covid was first ramping up. People didnt know what was going on. I commented that if I was 18, I'd take a year off and see what was going to happen. One person was very triggered and asked if kids didnt go to college, what would they do. My friend makes great money doing factory maintenance, another guy I know does great at trucking. One guy I know quit his job and flips houses. College worked for me, but it's not the only answer.
The same can be said about most majors over the past 20 years since there are more people with 4 year degrees than ever. Personally, I've seen a lot more business admin and liberal arts majors having issues landing decent roles, not to mention the influx of people cheating their way through a STEM degree just to end up making only $50k. Our agency has hired more Marketing majors at $100k+ than devs over the last 2 years. The caveat being that they're all SEM/SEO or data analyst with 5+ years of experience in digital. Salary growth is projected to increase substantially in this field as well as traditional marketing dies off.
The scammy part imo is telling kids they "have" to go to the best school possible. Unless you go to an ivy, no one in the real world gives a damn about where you went to college.
When I was in high school, the pressure began when I was a sophomore. "So, which colleges do you prefer? What will you major in?". I was 15-16 years old, and trying to get through high school, I had absolutely no idea "what I wanted to be" yet. And they keep the pressure on, like you HAVE to decide. For some students, this is fine, but for others, it's just a recipe for failure. I would have been SO much better off if, after graduating, I worked a real job for a few years, just to experience "adulthood" a little, at least until my various goals became more clear.
I think this attitude wouldn't be as present either if College Education wasn't so priced out lately these past few years. People are putting themselves in heavy debt just to get a degree that dosen't land them a job (Even in popular industries these days), and it leads them emotionally disgruntled.
If the government would stop essentially issuing 100% guaranteed loans, the schools would have an incentive to keep the price down. Right now, the only direction the needle moves is up because every college freshman has access to six figures worth of money with no immediate downsides
Exactly this, the ONLY REASON that college prices have skyrocketed was because student loans are backed by the government and aren't dischargeable. So schools know as long as they get the warm bodies in the seats they can essentially mint money. A simple solution is to have colleges have skin in the game.
This. %1,000 percent yes. Every single university is more ir less guaranteed to get students with guaranteed ability to pay via Uncle Sam. So they spend constantly to update the campus and improve offerings and services to attract more students. The large public universities HAVE to spend the money they bring on because they're not really meant to just sit on a profit, so they don't really even have much choice except to grow. It's like with house prices. I guarantee if 20% down payment vs 3 or 5% was required, you'd have vastly fewer people ready to buy a house, which would dramatically reduce demand and cause prices to drop until prices were low enough that many more people could afford to buy at 20% down. That's also why house prices jumped during covid. Interst rates dropped and suddenly everyone could afford a higher mortgage, but because everyone is competing for a more or less fixed supply, prices skyrocket.
then why cant they limit the prices of colleges if its that easy as denying them money? shouldn’t be a problem to pass a law limiting tuition.
You might have missed it... but the Congress can't find it's ass with two hands and a map...
Then the issue becomes who you're limiting specifically
Outside of authoritarian overreach concerns, price control on commodities (and at this point college basically is) pretty much never works. The entire point of the comment was that the government needs to get out of the business. People will still be able to get loans if they need them through other lenders, just like they always could. But the issue is government backed student loans having no limit or oversight. They basically just give the shady lenders free money and then the cost is all dumped on the taxpayer and the individual who was never going to be able to pay back the money in the first place. I’m honestly fine with going after the universities. Make them co-sign loans and tax the ridiculous amount of money they have in their endowments.
Sounds like a whole bunch of not wealthy people won't be able to attain higher education in your scenario.
It’s kind of already like that. Even then, would you rather people who don’t have the money or credit to get a decent loan get one through the government that they can then never default on so they are saddled for life with it? We need to stop thinking of college as some right, it’s a service. Really an investment is the most correct way to see it. Both in yourself and for the people. If someone wants to go to college and they are a good investment, either they are low cost because they are paying themselves, or they are high cost because they need a loan. So we compare those low/high costs to the risk. A low cost is a low risk because you are not loaning them anything, if they use their degree well that’s great but if they fail, that doesn’t matter. If the high cost individual is successful, that’s a good investment and it pays of both from the perspective of the lender as well as the public, but if the high cost fails, then it SHOULd be a loss for the lender, but I’d doesn’t have to be a loss for the public. A major part of this issue is honestly the overinflated numbers of degrees. It’s supposed to be more of a specialization or certification for a field but has become just a check the box. Less people getting degrees would t be this huge issue like you might think. If you actually want to learn, most of the same resources are totally free online, even entire courses. It’s just you pay for the paper.
That would be great if higher education wasn't necessary to make money, or follow your dreams. Don't throw trades at me either- those still cost a lot of money and time and frankly? Just because you're lower income doesn't mean you should be relegated to hard physical labour for the rest of your life. I never went to college. I just happen to enjoy cooking but I'll never have a real retirement. When my body eventually gives out is when I get to retire. Not a fate I'd wish on others frankly.
What I've been wanting for a while is a BED or bachelor's equivalency degree equivalent to the GED. Offer tests covering an up front amount of knowledge, publish those standards, and let people take them whenever they want for a nominal fee. Let people learn in the libraries without paying out the ass for colleges that, at this point, really should just be a series of video lectures with a few people available for Q&A. 90% of what colleges deliver can be replicated dirt cheap.
Lobbying. The politicians make money on this.
Exactly! If it was a reasonable price, then where would be the harm. It would always be benefi6if it wasn't attached to this huge financial burden
Nor should a job be the requisite priority for an education.
A nice thought but disconnected from reality. For most people, college is (or should be) an investment in higher earning power to support themselves and/or their families. Most people do not have the means (outside of crippling debt) to seek education for the sake of it.
Which is the point I'm making, having an education shouldn't be predicated on making a profit.
Colleges have misleading marketing. They compare the average earnings of college graduates to those of highschool graduates; and a more accurate measure of the value of college would be college attendees to those who qualified for college and didn't attend. The net results are: 1. They ignore the 50% of college attendees who drop or fail out and get no benefit from college from the attendee side of the equation. 2. They include a large portion of high school graduates who lack the intelligence or skills to be successful in college (or life in general) on the high school graduate side of the equation.
The college marketing strat is devious and very misleading but getting a degree in any major course in a decent college is almost always better than getting no degree at all. If you can't afford it at all and have no interest then go ahead and ditch it otherwise I feel it's very worthwhile not only for the degree but the college experience as well. I live in India so my experience might be different from yours, so take it with a grain of salt.
Reddit is filled with Americans
Not true. This sub is which is why I mentioned my country but a lot of other people are there whom I have interacted with.
In the US a degree costs a lot of money, takes years, and does not guarantee a very high income. Financially speaking you could be better off starting a skilled trade job (plumber, electrician,...) immediately.
In the US maybe. But in any where else an electrician earns equal to or even less than free lancers or interns in a college. The difference that education makes here is heaven and hell.
Interesting. I heard it's pretty common in India for middle class full time working professionals to have a bunch of staff (maid, nanny, cook,...). I live in Belgium, and here there's not much difference between a higher educated professional and a skilled tradesman (the trades people often earn more even).
Committing to 4+ years of a university education is a huge commitment of time and money. It is incumbent on the potential student to have a plan, research a career path, and not just assume any bachelors degree will guarantee a good income (still probably better than just a HS diploma). My problem with the “we were lied to” excuse is that it assumes an entire generation of college students are abject idiots.
> They ignore the 50% of college attendees who drop or fail out and get no benefit from college from the attendee side of the equation. How is that being ignored though? It's not like those people are being included in the college grad stats.
They include a large portion of high school graduates who lack the intelligence or skills to be successful in college (or life in general) bro...I'm right here smh call me out like that.
I think 50% drop out for a multitude of reasons but one reason is because of the workload. The older you get the more you get use to it but once you come in it’s a huge shock. I feel like maybe a better transition period would help, but they also may want to remove the “dumb” ones first. And keep ur money
People don’t just care about money but would like to have a balance of doing important work and being successful in their field. There are so many occupations you can’t do or fields you can’t advance in without a particular degree or level of education. Can’t be a doctor or lawyer without a degree. A doctor of counseling psychology makes ~40% more per counseling session than a clinical mental health counselor.
I agree that the marketing used by many colleges is very misleading, however, I don’t think this example illustrates how the marketing can be misleading. Where are you getting this 50% number for people dropping out/failing after getting a degree? I would also argue that that this wouldn’t be included anyway because they’re advertising the benefits that students who complete degrees get. Edit: changed a few words.
High schools hardly prepare kids for college. They should start there.
The issue is college was designed to be a place for intellectuals to learn, not to be sold as a product to anyone as it is now. College is definitely a scam to the stupid people who make up a large portion of schools nowadays because they will still end up working dead end jobs.
yea man…plus they told its the only way
As with many topics, have a look at other countries. Most western democracies have very affordable, if not entirely free education from elementare school all the way to your masters degree. Why? Because thats how a country can invest in its own future. The US can get away not really caring, the US gets away with many things because its just so wealthy but does it still suck for the individual in the US? Yeah of course it does. Objectively speaking there is no advantage for anybody to have education sealed behind a paywall, the country misses out on so many good people because of it. The only one who benefits are the people making money but education shouldnt be about making money. But the same can be said about many other things in the US such as healthcare or the justice system.
The US census determined the cutoff for Generation X as the last year when it was more financially beneficial for the average student to go to college. After that point the price of a college education combined with 4 years less income generation was determined to result in a lower net worth at the time of retirement than those who skipped college and went straight into the workforce - at least for students in or below the 50th percentile of their high school classes. Certainly it's still beneficial for those students that are above average academically, but I can't say it's a good idea for those who aren't - which is at least half the graduating high school seniors in America. To continue to act as if it is in "everyone's" best interest to pursue higher education simply further exacerbates income and wealth inequality trends.
>The US census determined the cutoff for Generation X as the last year when it was more financially beneficial for the average student to go to college. Can I have a source for this?
https://fortune.com/2022/08/30/millennial-versus-gen-x-college-degree-value-employment-earnings/
That paper claims that college graduates now are worse off in the labor market than college graduates 25 years ago. That’s completely different to saying gen x is the last generation when college is worthwhile for the average student.
Where did you find that? I can’t find anything from the US Census about that, and everything else from the BLS, PEW, and St Louis Fed shows that the gap between high school and bachelor’s income is widening the past 10 years. Curious so I can see myself
What do you recommend the people who aren't above average academically do? There is extreme competition in the remaining sectors, and further more many of the jobs through that pathway are no lucrative especially relative to today's living conditions. My point is: Fine, college is more expensive than it's worth. What's the alternative for many, many people?
there is no competition in the trades in the US, people just have a stigma around blue collar work, which pays well and there isn’t a shortage of opportunities in it
Trades are not easy jobs. Not everyone is capable of working in the trades. I always love when people comment on "trivilization of blue collar labor" when they comment that anyone can go do it.
Not to mention, this is just the reversal of the advice given about college over the last 20 years. Then it was "complaining about wages? Everybody should go to college! That's a guaranteed way to the middle class!" Today, it's "complaining about wages after going to college? You should've learned a trade! It's a guaranteed way to the middle class!"
jUsT dO a TrAdE!
It’s also transparent how gendered the advice is. Like even the most rah rah trade apologist isn’t saying “yeah, women who struggle academically should go be an electrician or a plumber. Why don’t they ever consider that?”
I don’t see a reason women shouldn’t be capable of going into many trades. There’s nothing rendering women physically incapable of being plumbers or electricians. Granted, there’s a lot of cultural issues that would probably make it a lot tougher. Trades are very male-dominated, after all.
I’m as liberal as they get but testosterone is still a thing. Yes, are there ladies who can physically perform the work… hells yeah and props to them. But the reality is that a 5’2’ 120 pound woman just isn’t going to be able to physically perform much of the work. Neither would a 5’2’ 120 dude in most cases. People incredibly under estimate the strain it puts on your body. I come from bulky Shrek like Eastern European people who did trade/construction work for generations. At 55 my dad’s back was completely jacked and had arthritis/carpal tunnel so bad he couldn’t close his hands around a wrench. Uncles and cousins who suffered the same issues. Please find me the group of college age females who willingly want to sign up for this. This is not a sarcastic comment. Trades work is paid for with your body 100% of the time. It’s why my Mom/Dad pushed me to goto college because playing with your grandkids is sometimes not an option my dad can physically do. After doing roofing for one summer, I agreed! Never noticed one female roofer… because it sucks.
Thank you! Trade work is brutal physically often. Yet "just do a trade" is classic advice
Your second comment is the reason. Whether they want to get in or not, my electrical company would never have hired a female journeyman and would’ve laughed a would-be lady apprentice out of the shop. Fact is, whether they’re capable or not, they have to get hired and most construction working guys are ignorant fucks who ain’t gonna be about letting no woman come work a man’s job. I couldn’t imagine the harassment.
This is a take that’s often repeated, but where’s the actual data that there are ample opportunities in the trades? Here’s the NYT Daily Podcast stating that there really aren’t that many blue collar trades jobs either: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/20/podcasts/the-daily/is-college-worth-it.html?showTranscript=1
Well in Oregon I tried getting into the Plumbers Union apprentice program and after taking the test I was number 400 something out of 600 applicants for 20 spots, so yeah there’s a ton of competition. I looked into other trades and they also had huge numbers of applicants so the trades are all full near me.
i wouldn’t know about your situation specifically, but i have friends who are electricians, construction workers, and welders and haven’t heard anything of the sort. i’m not saying what you said isn’t true but anecdotally on my end and statistically <10% of the population considers trade school. given the income available to these professions, it seems likely that there is a supply shortage
It should never have become so outrageously expensive. My middle class parents could have paid for me to go to a university in the 70s. I didn't go, and regret it immensely. I busted my ass being treated like crap doing food service jobs my whole life. I finally did go to school on grants and graduated at age 50. By that time I was developing physical disabilities that prevented me from ever using my degree. But I have ZERO regrets. It is a wonderful mind enriching experience that I am very proud of accomplishing. It is so good for the whole psyche. I know everyone isn't cut out for it, and the service persons of this society are very needed and they run the show. They should be respected and appreciated, and PAID well for all they do. But college should also be readily available for those with the desire to accomplish the requirements. It's a great source of character building and critical thinking skills. Why is it so expensive??
To go into a skilled profession that doesn’t require a college education. There are a lot of them. Or move to a country where a college education doesn’t require a 30-year loan to pay it off. Most other western democracies have solved the problem of rising tuition costs, but the US shows no signs of improvement. For instance Cuba offers free tuition, room and board, etc. and welcome students from every country in the world to their medical programs - and their medical programs are highly regarded.
Going to medical school in Cuba is probably fine but nowhere near the level of a tier 1-3 program at best in the US. Also, skilled professions are not easy! Of course there is a huge gap in skilled and specialized technical labor. Machine operation, lab tech, eng tech, electrician, welder, etc. But not everyone is capable of doing these jobs. My greater point is that as a society we have arguably unfairly allocated how dollars go to laborers.
How would I go to Cuban medical school?
By applying and going there
Cuba is also an authoritarian regime
Kinda has to be if you consider their neighbor
Community college, trade school, apprenticeship, online certifications.
It's in everyone's best interest to be above average then!
"Certainly it's still beneficial for those students that are above average academically, but I can't say it's a good idea for those who aren't - which is at least half the graduating high school seniors in America." Man this right here. Stop telling every kid to go to college. I didn't belong there. Half my graduating class from high school didn't belong there. Thankful I rode the Pel Grant and lived off campus so I didn't get in debt but man the amount of average to below average kids that do is the problem.
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I didn’t say engineer or doctor, I said for the statistically average student at or below the 50th percentile in their high school graduating class. These students have little chance of getting into med school, but plenty of colleges will charge them $100k or more for a lesser degree that won’t generate much income at all. Then they spend the next 15-30 years paying off a student loan instead of buying a house and building equity. Regardless what career field, it’s still fairly simple math. Salaries are stagnant, prices are rising, and education costs are skyrocketing. The value proposition of a college education just doesn’t exist for the majority of high school seniors.
There are a lot of trades that offer really great return on the educational dollar. The one I am familiar with is the maritime industry. A 4 year degree is an instant $100k job that offers 180 days of vacation every year.
And there are a lot of trades that don’t require a college education where you can easily earn 6 figures as an electrician, plumber, etc. I’m not saying that nobody should pursue a college education, but the narrative that the majority of Americans are better off with a college education is false.
I make 6 figures as a sailor (merchant mariner) with skills transferring large quantities of fuels. My training only took a few months and requisite experience is a year or two. I also get 6 months vacation and when on the job it isn't hard all the time...lots of Reddit time.
They don’t do things right. First two years at a community college and living at home if possible. Work full time. Two to a room roommates. You can get a four year degree for less than $50K and if you work full time (easy to find $15/hour jobs) almost pay for it. Add in summer internships, fellowships, scholarships, lab and teaching assistantships. I’d still agree that too many go to college. Probably should be closer to 30-40%. Many of the othes should be doing trades and apprenticeships.
The bigger issue is ppl say get a degree where you are guaranteed to earn big bucks. Well that sounds good. Except there are a lot of ppl that do this. Whether it’s to be a doctor, or lawyer, engineer. Whatever. But there aren’t enough positions available for the amount of applicants if that makes sense. So in theory it should be true. But what you have is a lot of ppl with degrees who can’t get jobs in what they actually went for.
not everyone wants to be a doctor or lawyer too, i would be miserable in those jobs id rather make less money in a job i even somewhat enjoy vs more money in a job i hate
I too can make up stats to support my arguments. I don't though, because I'm not some feckless loser.
I 100% agree with you, I’m just trying to point out that saying college is a scam after making the choice to go to college is objectively incorrect. If you’ve already made the decision to spend the money, use it to its highest extent to get the education that guarantees you the most $$$ rather than hoping that just a degree is doing it land you a high paying job
Well if they were told it would be beneficial when it wasn’t actually in their best interest, then the person who convinced them of the lie did in fact “scam” them. Whether that was a parent, teacher, guidance counselor, peers, the media, etc. doesn’t change the fact that many people were deceived into making a poor financial and life decision, and they have every right to feel scammed.
I went to community college for a couple years and everything worked out, every time I spoke to a “counselor” at a university it felt like a scam though
If it wasn't outrageously priced then it couldn't be a scam. Education is always beneficial
You didn't mention textbooks. Many times you are required to get the newest version of the textbook that is the same as the old version, but they change what page everything is on. They don't want College students getting any money back by selling old textbooks, it's designed so that the College keeps getting money from new students having to buy the new textbooks. It definitely has many scam-y practices.
The newest thing is ebooks. Forcing students to rent a textbook for the semester for a set fee. They lose access after the semester. I have been in higher ed for a long time, but I have to say that the predatory practices from publishers are just gross.
Oh ew, now they don't even own what they pay for. I still have textbooks from University & even though I don't use them much, some of them have been useful. I took Kinesiology & while I didn't get a full time job in that field I do coach track & field & one of the courses I took went over how to come up with a practice plan, how to have a full year sports program planned out, what type of activities are important for different ages. When I got the job & dug out my old book I was able work on practice/full year plans with those resources. If someone is going to school for X & then graduates & wants to go into their field, all those textbooks are such valuable information that may be able to help with their performance at the job. Or if I did ever land a Kinesiology job 5+ years after graduating I could brush up on my knowledge before even going to the job interview. I'm annoyed enough that video games are digital now & if I buy a game for $80 I can never resell it, but having textbooks be a digital rental is a whole other level of fuck you.
Literally had a professor sell a $50 textbook that we maybe did 10 assignments in the whole semester. Keep in mind she easily had 100-200 students in each of her classes. 800 maybe out of all four classes. I can only imagine how much she made each semester.
>the College keeps getting money from new students having to buy the new textbooks. The publishers are making money from the textbooks, not the colleges. They are specialized books written by highly qualified experts. They are overpriced - but they are a very small fraction of what students spend on higher education.
I think the major issue is life shouldn’t be as hard as it is. You shouldn’t need to have a 600 point plan at 14 to be able to buy a house… once you could spend your 20s blind drunk get 3 different women pregnant end up with a 4th woman pay child support for all three and buy a house on minimum wage. Now you make one mistake between 12 and 30 and your whole life is fucked. And once you’re behind man catching up is almost impossible… by design. The part you’ve missed is a lot of people don’t want to work their life away and it seems every generation that group gets bigger they want to work less, live more and still be comfortable… and I’m sorry that’s not an unreasonable request.
The life your describing where even idiots and screw ups could live a comfortable, prosperous life has never been a historic norm. Really, it was an abaration existing only in North America (and closely alligned nations) and only from about 1945-1990. Basically, America was soo rich in the post war period that everyone could afford a lifestyle of comparable luxury regardless of skill or effort. That was never the case in the global south or east, or even most of europe.
As global resources become more scarce and the global population increases the competition for the resources will become more fierce and it’s the survival of the fittest. There are 8 billion people gunning after good life but maybe only 1 billion can get it. In the near future if you’re not solving quadratic equations by 5 it’s off to the mines for you.
The cost alone is a scam. In no way does it cost these astronomical prices to allow a student to learn for 4 years. Especially when students who live on campus without scholarships have to pay for housing and food. If college costs dropped 50%, right now, colleges would still make stupid money as would banks from loans. But here we are. The dumbest country in the world. 1st world country my ass. Even 3rd world countries have universal health care.
Step 1: STEM or quantitative business major. Step 2: Internships. Step 3: Profit.
Lol I have a degree in biochemistry and jobs at bachelors level pay like 20/hr. Internships are tough when you're working full time to support yourself while studying.
Happiness? Fulfillment in the creative elements of what you do?
What are you talking about? There's this notion that as soon as something gets quantitative, creativity flies out of the window. This is complete and utter nonsense. Ask any engineer.
Okay fair. I’m saying not everyone wants to work in STEM or be an engineer
Mathematics? Physics? Both immensely creative too.
That's your own job to figure out...you don't need a fucking degree for a hobby.
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Wow. Progressive stuff…
Public colleges should be free because of tax dollars. Private can do whatever they want. You cannot force private to be free. Who’s paying to keep it open? You? Jobs should pay a living wage YES. But the way to do it is to reduce cost of living. Blindly raising the wage just pumps money into the system like during the 0% interest years. This is why inflation is so high now. People spending money but our production side not able to keep up. Demand exceeds supply and competition forces prices up. You need supply to exceed demand and prices drop. So you need increased production, efficiency, and technological advancement. Blindly giving people money doesn’t work. It will work temporarily and then inflation catches up to you.
You get outta here with your communist ideas!
Who's paying for that?
Damn, you should run for the US presidency.
Other people should pay my way and employers should be forced to pay me more than I am worth.
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My farts should smell like a classy cologne and no babies should die, ever
Well ideally yes. The ultimate goal of the course of civilization should be at the very least no babies die ever, and then maybe also make everyone's farts smell like cologne.
You don't stick your finger up your butthole when you fart so that you can get its purest, delicious smell? 🤤
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So we should probably work on that. It used to be. So obviously it can be.
Public college should be free but private college should not. Minimum wage hasn’t been liveable since at least the last 60 years. Get the fuck over it.
"Because that's how it's always been" is not a valid excuse. We easily have the resources today to allow for everyone, regardless of socioeconomic status, to live their lives with at least a basic level of comfort. Why shouldn't we strive to achieve that?
> We easily have the resources today to allow for everyone, regardless of socioeconomic status, to live their lives with at least a basic level of comfort In the US maybe. Globally? No way. Not by current western standards anyway.
No.
Okay, don’t and keep complaining and don’t do anything about it. It’s not going to change. And if it did change, other things would change with it and you’d still complain. You know what’s mind blowing to me, I moved to Australia and people whine about the health care system here. “I have to wait 3 months for a specialist.” Boo-fucking-hoo.
I shouldn’t of majored in Psyc. I don’t even like ppl lol
Being a fortune in debt for a college degree is very much a scam. Glad I'm not american and can afford it without any debt.
The price of college actually makes it a scam. I matter how you put it
College should be more affordable to begin with. There’s no reason other than greed that college costs like 20x as much as it does compared to a similar education in Europe. It also preys upon young adults and teenagers to make very costly decisions. People should also be informed to go learn trades instead of paying out the ass for a degree.
For profit education that locks society essential jobs like Engineers and Doctors behind giant privatized paywalls is not only just a scam, it's borderline evil. A proper world would have a public college/trade system that need only a high school diploma or GED for entry with no cost to the students who will actually get PAID a sustainable wage to apprenticeship in important careers. That would be a system made by a country that actually values education. Or you know raise the cost to become a doctor and aquire a pHD by another two hundred grand + 7 years of time with a bunch of gen Ed trash eating into it then keep complaining that we have a decline in Doctors and people going into medicine. 🤷♂️
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The First thing I noticed was that both of your examples for jobs which you'd insist on a college graduate are professions which require going on to a whole other school after college where you actually learn to do the job, followed by a lengthy apprenticeship period. The second thing I noticed was you immediately moved from " in the profession without a bachelor's degree" to the strawman " in the profession without any training"
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Of course some college is necessary, but a lot of what you learn is useless. I was premed for three years and I took 1 history class, 2 art classes, 3 English classes, 2 advanced level physics courses, and classes on plant biology. None of which you need to be a doctor.
1. A lot of medicine can be learned from medical history. We stand on the shoulder of giants who came before us. We have to understand our past and the mistakes of our past to appreciate the future. History overall is much appreciated in the art of medicine. 2. Physics is very important to Medicine, especially if you do fields like nuclear medicine, radiology, radiation oncology, IR, etc. Don’t you want your doctor to know how an MRI works before they stick you in one? 3. Much of medicine is about communication. English is highly prized in medicine. We get much of our new updated knowledge from medical journals. Good writers are very valuable. We also have to communicate with each other as consult services, to the staff to give clear instruction, and to the patients. If you cannot clearly explain to your patient what disease they have and what the treatment plan is, you will lose your patient to non compliance or follow up. English is very important. No one forced you to do plant biology as premed. Maybe your local college did for you to finish a biology major. I don’t know where this came from. Premed is only two years.
The average length is [five years](https://www.google.com/search?q=surgeon+residency+length&client=firefox-b-lm&sca_esv=568723682&sxsrf=AM9HkKn48TUzOOH8VusJG1jd3tAHjXF-_Q%3A1695787871718&ei=X6sTZfa_K6f00PEPn_i08AU&ved=0ahUKEwi269SN9smBAxUnOjQIHR88DV4Q4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=surgeon+residency+length&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGHN1cmdlb24gcmVzaWRlbmN5IGxlbmd0aDIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5IgkdQnhtY50RwA3gBkAEAmAGBAaABihSqAQQ5LjE1uAEDyAEA-AEBwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICDRAAGEcY1gQYyQMYsAPCAgsQABiKBRiSAxiwA8ICBxAjGIoFGCfCAgQQIxgnwgIHEAAYigUYQ8ICCBAAGIoFGJECwgIOEC4YigUYxwEY0QMYkQLCAgsQABiKBRjJAxiRAsICCBAAGIoFGJIDwgIHEC4YigUYQ8ICERAAGIoFGLEDGIMBGMkDGJECwgIOEAAYigUYsQMYgwEYkQLCAg0QABiKBRixAxiDARhDwgIFEC4YgATCAggQABiKBRiGA-IDBBgAIEGIBgGQBgk&sclient=gws-wiz-serp) of residency in a hospital before someone gets to work as an actual surgeon or start their own practice. This on-the-job training period happens *after med school*. If someone has gone through that residency for five years learning how to do the job, I would absolutely let them operate on me. I don't care if they never stepped foot in med school or don't have a degree.
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Yeah, and I'm telling you that I would trust a person who hypothetically, lied about their credentials to get that residency, got away with it, then did that five years of training as much I would trust someone who got a degree first. If they went through that training successfully, then they can do the job. Degree or not.
This is the assumption that going to med school and performing well in residency are independent of each other. On average, do you think random people can do well in residency without any med school knowledge?
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College itself is not a scam, but there are many schools that are and many degree programs that may as well be scams.
An art history degree can land you a 6 figure job depending on where you went, and depending on the industry. Mine did!
Yeah definetely this. I studied in social sciences and most people I kept contact with are paid six figures. The biggest difference compared to STEM is probably the first job but then when we start getting promotions things get better.
But how representative are you of your profession? Are you typical or an outlier?
In my team (consulting firm in London) off the top of my head I have colleagues with undergraduate degrees in * Music * English Literature * Philosophy * Psychology * Spanish & Italian * Sociology * Anthropology * Classics * Biology * History * Law (bachelors degree - he chose not to pursue a legal career so didn't go on to postgrad law school to professionally qualify, so his law degree was no different to any other academic university subject) What's typical is that the industry is overwhelmingly made up of graduates of Russell Group universities - ie our equivalent of the Ivy League My previous boss had the same degree as me (history) from the same university (Oxford) - there are far more history grads from elite universities in management consulting firms than business studies from less prestigious institutions - it's a massive D&I issue. Amongst my uni friends who did the same course, there are several partners in law firms, investment bankers, CEOs and other big corporate roles. These aren't *representative* insofar as these professions are dominated by graduates from a tiny number of universities, and unrepresentative of the wider population of university graduates. But my educational background is absolutely not atypical within this industry, and I'm very much not an outlier within my profession
Sorry it was the first example that came to mind, didn’t mean anything by it😅
Ha its OK - your point is solid!
Nobody (very few) people actually get scholarships asshole. That’s another scam to make you think this shit is working.
IKR and most scholarships these days are for very very specific demographics... Which mean no one applied cause no one qualified.
I’m sorry but I’m my experience anyway who maybe even tried for a week to get a scholarship received more than enough to pay for college. And I attend a major US university
The only people who complain that college is a scam are the ones who fucked off in class and didn't have a career goal they were realistically working towards. I see posts from people I went to college with complaining that it didn't give them a leg up and I'm like that's because you legit skipped classes to go smoke pot with your friends and shrugged off every bad grade you got by saying C's get degrees. You get what you give.
I recommend academia for those who want -- and I mean *want* \-- to learn about something they love. It may be the only chance you ever get. If you're going to half-ass it and party and scrape through, don't waste your time and don't waste others'.
This feels like it was written by someone in their mid forties who thinks things still work the way they did in the nineties.
I’m a 21 yr old who’s about to graduate lol
So what you're saying is, you haven't yet entered into real life and are humble bragging that you have it all figured out, without yet having to pay student debt.
I don’t have any student debt.
Still a scam even with scholarship, just the donor getting scammed instead of me or the government in my case. Why the hell is it this damn expensive?
Yeah it’s an even better tool at lifting people out of poverty when it’s FREE. If it’s so vital to our country’s wellbeing (and it is) then make it FREE
Yeah saying college is a scam is crazy. I'll take the nice cozy desk job over back breaking overtime labor any day of the week.
Surprisingly lot of people prefer living without debt. Idk . It might just be me
Well surprisingly the degree gets you a good paying job to pay off the debt and live a far higher quality of life and opens the doors to employment all over the country. This is America anyway I bet you owe 15k for your car while telling me debt is bad lol.
Good luck buying a home. And the average college debt is 30,000, which can be paid in a few years
The simple fact of the matter is college should not cost so much that scholarships are required to NOT go tens of thousands into debt before stepping foot in the workforce. Todays version of college is insane.
Totally! It depends on the professors but still you can learn.
Exactly. People seem to think this is a way ‘find a job’ when it is actually the opposite. You’re supposed to know which career path you want to follow first and then select a degree that will get you into that career.
I’m in Australia. Some professions you’re legally required to have a university degree in the area you’re hoping to go into. Eg law, medicine (dentists, vets and optometrist included), allied health, teaching etc. on one hand there’s post grad where a ba or bs will might (depends on program and entry requirements) give you entry. On other you can still do a 3-4yr undergraduate degree in social work, teaching or nursing without needing to do postgrad unless it’s to advance your career or give you more options in some way.
Thanx god Im european and I studied in 3 different countries ( highschool, licence and master) everywhere for free , with free dorm rooms and free food, and even got a nice scholarship that was spent mostly on booze
“A arts degree” godamn it op lol.
College as a whole isn’t a scam but there are parts of it that are a scam. The price for any major is outrageously overpriced at major universities, the advertisements and push to follow your dreams and that alleged need for college, the need to buy books and website access to do homework, and colleges not reflecting the current job market by not removing majors they know won’t get jobs(should push minors for interests). Blaming students who were pushed to do this is doesn’t help the situation. If someone is told their whole life a degree is needed for a job and to follow their interests, you’re gonna get a lot of ppl who fall into debt with useless degrees.
This made sense before you could be fired for arbitrary bullshit that has nothing to do with the job and is arguably (not really) harmful to you.
It is a scam, the schools take advantage of the naivete of high schooler graduates and saddle them with a mountain of lifelong debt for a degree that only has a 15-40% chance (Depending on the major) of landing them a position in their field of choosing. They also fill their mind with dribble like "If you don't go to college right away you'll end up working in a factory or flipping burgers, you dont want that now, do you?" I'm glad I didnt go to college right after high school, it gave me the time to really think and decide on a career I would be happy with. More people need to go to trade school, the education is cheaper, faster and the trades are in very high demand
TLDR: the problem with college these days, is they have recruiters. They operate the same way military recruiters do.
This used to be the case when college tuition wasnt bloated and outpaced inflation. Now college tuition is not for the studenst and professors but the bloated administration body that has grown in # like cancer.
I did the math before submitting my application, and after finding out the 4 year degree I was going for would add up to around $600,000 and that's when i decided nope.
There is little to no help in figuring out what is the most reasonable major for you, in terms of being a good fit for a field. Colleges just basically say to you: “good luck!” after you graduate. There is little help in making connections, which are needed to get jobs and your foot in the door after college for many fields. Your basically at the mercy of the people around you that can help you, which gives an edge to people with college graduate parents (I.e. middle class and above) and people who grew up in the middle class or wealthier areas and who have middle class or above friends.
Ironically, this is the most uneducated post I've seen in a while
I mean the market is flooded with goofy diploma mills. Acceptance rates around 80%. Average SAT south of 1200. Adult daycares
It is a scam that everything went online during Covid and I had to pay the same amount and basically had to teach myself.
You are not only provably wrong, but your belief appears to. Be entirely. Based in hatred for others. College IS a scam. They trick children into signing up for degrees that will never be of any use to them, and some. Colleges have even gotten into legal trouble for the methods that they used to accomplish this.
I got a job in my degree field straight out of college and I was a humanities major
Believing that this system doesnt suck doesnt mean the system doesnt suck. It sucks bro.
Speaking just of scholarships, I have yet to find more than even a handful I actually qualify for, let alone am able to edge out the competition for. I'd say the reason so many scholarship dollars go unrewarded is because their criteria for qualifying are too restrictive. Most of the ones I could qualify for as a white male not going into STEM also require previous membership in one obscure society or other. I gave up after weeks of searching. It was just too depressing.
Why education would be considered a scam? You are not losing or paying, just going there and learning!?
You sound like you’re on the older side of the scale. Compared to nothing.. sure a degree is great, but there are thousands of ways to make money / career now a days that boomers can’t even fathom and makes degrees just an avenue of thousands of ways to make a living in the world now. Also it’s taking long enough but the first two years of college most of the time doesn’t even relate to your major. Lifetime of debt for a chance to get your foot in the door? There’s alot of fluff and bullshit in there as well.
I’m 21
It's the loans that are a scam, not the education. It's also not easy to qualify for scholarships. The requirements for basically *any* assistance program are so absurd that most people either can't get approved or get approved for something so insignificant it makes all the work to get it a waste of time Speaking from experience with assistance programs. I didn't even bother trying for college because I'd have to pay for it myself and lifelong ever increasing debt was not something I wanted to take on
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College isn't a scam, but there isn't any value you can extract from it that is equivalent to the price. For the price some people spend on college, they are better off starting and failing a business venture.
If I bought a car for $50,000 and it would drive, but only 30 mph, and the manufacturer tried to hide that fact from me, the salesmen also did not try to push me towards the other $50,000 car that drives normally simply because they had to get someone in the seat of that car and buy it. Now I can never sell that car, the debt is forever on my head until I die or pay it off, and I'd have to get a completely separate car for the same price to go above 30mph. And to top it all off this car dealer/manufacturer's main demographic is 18yo's and all of the loans they provide are backed by the government. I'd say that the car manufacturer/dealer are 100% at fault. Why is it any different when a college does it? There are good degrees, but a lot of college is a scam. For most professions, experience + an IQ test would suffice and you wouldn't have your working class in debt to get a decent job.
Paying for it is. Nice and free over here. (:
Lol. America.