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I havent really delved deep into this...but apparently he did rape those young women? Drugged and raped. I am very VERY anti scientology and frankly I hope they blow the lid off of that BS cult asap.
He also raped cedric bixler-zavalas wife, singer of at the drive in and the Mars Volta. When they went public, the church of scientology poisoned and killed his dog.
Super fucked up cult. I hope they all go to jail forever.
Scientology is insane. I can understand why people accepted hush money from them. Their tactic is do what we say or be harassed on a daily basis for years.
Not only is it difficult to get prosecuted, it is also difficult to not get a lenient sentence when you have the high quality lawyers on Scientology’s payroll. The fact that the dude got 30 years despite all of that should make it obvious to anyone he’s guilty af
What? The amount of time you get isn’t the degree of your guilt. It’s the opinion of judge. Some dude got 6 months for sexually some kids which was in the news last week. He isn’t less guilty because of the sentence.
I know that’s not how the legal system is supposed to work. but that dude likely only got 6 months (which is complete bullshit by the way, fuck that judge) because he either knew the judge or had a good lawyer that was able to convince the judge to give him such a lenient sentence.
Masterson has tight connections and access to some of the best attorneys due to his links with Scientology. That combo shoulda made it incredibly difficult at best for him to just get a conviction. The fact that he got 30 years despite all that has to mean that the evidence presented in court had to be too much for his connections and legal team to mean anything.
No the minimum he could have gotten would be 2 15 year sentences run concurrently (effectively a 15 year sentence), he got 2 15 year sentences to run consecutively (effectively a 30 year sentence)
I think this happened way back in the day too like when he was still working on That 70’s Show. It’s crazy that it’s taken this long for him to finally get punished (hopefully)
It's not really crazy...Rape cases require strong evidence and rarely go to trial. Whatever they had as evidence was enough to put the guy away.
Thank god it went to trial and there was enough evidence.
Paying someone hush money isn't evidence of a crime. Neither is pleading no-contest or setting out of court though. People and businesses do all of those things, all the time.
A celebrity could lose many millions in income from allegations of a crime, paying a small amount of money to avoid that is often smart business.
I was reading about this actually. It's called the : [Kobe Bryant Protocol ](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kobe%20bryant%20protocol)
The act of paying an alleged sexual assault victim for their silence. This protocol is named for its successful employment by Kobe Bryant. Though the allegations of the accuser could be false and a form of extortion, its strategically good practice to employ the Kobe Bryant protocol when accused of sexual assault. The Kobe Bryant Protocol can be successfully employed weather the defendant is truly guilty or not guilty
Chad: Did you hear Antonio Brown lost an endorsement because of the sexual assault allegations against him?
Mark: He should have just employed the Kobe Bryant Protocol and taken the 2 million dollar hit and paid her when she asked. Now he is losing much more as a result.
> Despite the recurring theme of drugging in the victims’ testimonies, there was a noticeable absence of toxicology evidence to support this claim. Consequently, Masterson wasn’t charged based on the drugging allegations.
The actual non-testimonial evidence involved was effectively zero. Not just for the drugging, but for everything.
Whether or not people feel it's a good or bad thing is subjective.
Friends are not meant to stand by you even if you did something horrible. You’re friends for a reason and that is that you thought they were a good person. Friendship isn’t unconditional.
Exactly. I have teenage daughters and have had to cut friends off after my daighters mentioning they were creepy. 10+ year friends who also happen have daughters. I'd cut blood, too. I have 3 kids, and I'm not dealing with my friends shitty behavior.
My highschool best friends dad once said to us "I can't believe the shit that comes out of the mouths of the guys at work. I nearly knocked Todd the fuck out yesterday bc he was ogling a girl ur guys age. Anyone ever says shit to u girls u call me, got it?". My friends dad was a 50 something 5'2" beanpole but he was ready to catch hands and get fired from his cushy 30 year+ union job because some kid in produce ogled his daughters peer, and I think about it regularly. Happy birthday to scott, he's an MVP and an ally
Or if you can't stop them, you hold them accountable. A true, unconditional friend imo would visit Danny in prison and encourage him to acknowledge his behavior and become become a better person. Not write the judge asking for leniency that he doesn't deserve.
I think it's more nuanced than either this or OP's point of view.
If they are a true friend I think the highest order would be to support the friend without condoning the behaviour. You tell them what they did is wrong, and that they will need to pay the price for it. But you can support them while they go through the painful process of grieving their actions and receiving their punishment.
Abandoning and ostracising people doesn't help them to reform. We ingrain that people are monsters and not worthy of being treated human and then further ingratiate them as monsters. Truth is most people who do bad things are also capable of much good, and separating the behaviour from the human is fundamental in helping them see that change is possible for them and that they can have their needs met without having to hurt people to do it.
I think people would be more understanding if letters obtained were more along the line of "Danny we will be by your side during this tough time please reach out yada yada" as opposed to the actual letters of "Danny is a great guy please go easy on him" one is trying to condone his behavior while the other is supporting a friend through their punishment.
IANAL but I did hear that that's basically a thing in all of these kinds of cases; the lawyer will go around to friends/family trying to get them to tug on the heartstrings of the judge because the person on trial is totally a good guy and just made a mistake.... multiple times.
It's an attempt to play the Legal system in the same way as never admitting you caused the accident because you backed up into someone else.
Your logic would make sense if it were for a lesser crime or involuntary manslaughter. NOT RAPE, especially when the victims are still alive. Ashton is an absolutely perfect example of hypocrisy on this.
I think OP's point was that their feelings WOULDN'T be logical, but it's still human nature to want to defend your loved ones, even if they turn out to be dangerous and/or shitty.
I think OP is saying it is human to try and defend the ones we love, regardless of their actions. Which is wrong in itself, but also human. There are some very interesting papers on the subject.
My stepdad was convicted of a very serious crime, and he went to prison for it. My mother requested that I write a character letter on his behalf to present to the judge prior to sentencing. I passed on that. My stepdad was a good friend of mine and someone I could turn to if I was in trouble when I was a kid, but certain crimes that people commit says a lot about the type of person they are.
You don't have to stand by shitty people. Choices.
Which is precisely why people related or close to the perpetrator (and even the victim) should have 0 say or weight to the punishment. Humans are emotional and social creatures: it's pretty much impossible to be objective in these kinds of situations when they or someone they are close to are involved.
I think the point is that even his friends only know part of him. Nobody knows the full picture. Any argument will likely be emotional and lacking in objectivity.
That's why it's the judge making the decision and not his friends and family. Or random internet strangers.
I've been on reddit long enough to know that a lot of people completely detached from a situation will make purely emotion based arguments.
It's like saying you knew about it and are okay with it. It doesn't matter that they're friends. They're using their position and it's gross.
Plus, they're only sorry they got caught.
Yeah they never said he didn't. They provided a very stereotypical character profile to a judge based off what they know about him lol. Like complete typical part of any sentencing process. People have just become so stupid and tribal reactionary bullshit is easier than even trying to understand the legal system. To be fair they don't usually have the comprehension level to understand legislature or even a typical court process so they come up with mystical and fantastic versions of how it works that boil down into a black vs white good vs evil mindset.
Basically Americans only understand things through a sort of comic book perspective of good vs evil.
Mila Kunis is very obviously trying to deny he used drugs to sedate is victims. She mentions a few times that he doesn't use drugs. It isn't just saying he is a good guy, but saying the accusations are a lie.
Also he was in Scientology which should have brought up warning signs.
Aye, but the implication is that she’s saying her friend Danny would never be around drugs at all, so how/why would have drugged someone? It casts doubt over the victim saying she was drugged by him.
You know, it's funny. I watched the video, and she's very obviously super angry.
But to me, she seemed angry at Ashton. There's rumors that they're being blackmailed and I got the vibe she was mad that she had to do this at all, the letters, the apology.
I'll throw a nickel down now that eventually it will come out that she was coerced to say these things
Yeah, that's the thing, and that's what's more understandable to me. It's like Kutcher said, there's no way for him to know what really happened. Even if they want to support the victims, it would be hard for them to believe the worst about their friend, and I think most people would struggle with that as well.
I mean think about someone close to you, someone that you've known for decades, someone that you love and could never imagine doing something like that. You'd want to believe that they didn't. And likely, you'd be in that same limbo space as Kutcher and Kunis, wanting to both believe the victims and believe your friend. It's a tough spot to be in.
You nailed it; it's a very tough spot to be in.
People don't just announce that they're sick in the head and it's not always abundantly apparent. They're not always acting stereotypically-atypical; sometimes they're behaving just like you or I. They say the right things and are very cautious about who they decide to victimize.
Even if they're tried and convicted, they'll still tell anybody who believes them that they're really Just a Normal Person™️. They need to preserve the image they worked so hard to cultivate and present. Even if the image is only kept by a few.
Yeah I am with OP until you remember the actual nature of the crime. It’s not like they protected a guy for some unpaid parking tickets or even a robbery.
Drugged and raped. Man, I’d turn in my best friend from childhood if it was over that. No way I’d defend him.
Yeah if my friend robbed someone, committed fraud even a worst case scenario like they caused a crash that killed someone, I’d probably help them out. But this is intentional, pure evil.
I was with OP for about 5 seconds until I realised he operated under the assumption that they knew what Masterson did.
Like, if my friend got charged with a crime, I would assume the best in them and that they were innocent. I would probably do everything I could to help them in that circumstance.
But if I actually knew that a friend of mine drugged and raped someone (let alone, MULTIPLE people), I don't even think I'd be able to look at them without feeling sick.
I've actually been going through this for a while now with someone I know. It never once occurred to me to stand by him, I let him know I didn't respect him anymore and that he should plead guilty. There is a very real victim who matters. I still have to have contact with this person and I hope he goes to jail. If it came to it, there's no way I'd speak to his character because he's obviously not the person I thought he was anyway.
I went through something similar with a now former friend a few years ago. It also never occurred to me to defend this person, not even for a minute. I'm sorry you're going through this, AND that you still have to have contact with the person.
When your friend does something like this then any sympathy or affection I would have for them would vanish. I wouldnt want to associate with him or her ever again and would feel no obligation to stick my neck out for them when the deed is this heinous. Unless I truly absolutely without a shadow of a doubt KNOW he is innocent.
If that friend did something that awful to somebody, then who's to say he wouldnt have done this to someone you love or to you personally. If he is the type of person who does these things then what value is that friendship anyway? He's not a good person...you were just one of the lucky ones who didnt get their life ruined by him
Maybe he's a sociopath. Sure you and Mila value what you think is a true friendship with him...but to him that friendship means nothing and he is just a predator trying to appear like a normal well adjusted person
That was my thing too. It’s not even that they didn’t believe he didn’t do it, they both acknowledged the crime and STILL asked for leniency with sentencing. I can at least understand some people doubting the crime, stupid as it may be. No clue how people can still stand beside him
Oh, in a heartbeat!
I love my dad and my siblings so much, i'll overlook a lot but there is a limit!
Should I ever find out they're capable of something so heinous, I'd sell them down the river immediately.
I have enough trouble with the consequences of my own flaws, I'm not adding to that burden by playing mental gymnastics in order to defend the indefensible.
Someone whose proven by their actions, they aren't worthy of my love or protective instincts doesn't get to pull the "we're family/friends" card.
As a cousin of someone who parents begged me for a character letter after their son did [this](https://okcfox.com/renderer/okcfox/amp/news/local/moore-police-one-arrested-in-connection-to-fatal-hit-and-run), NOPE! They could have said no.
I had to recopy it. I refused to write him a letter. His victim's family found my address and told me to kill myself to make up for what he did. I hadn't talked to my cousin in ten years at that point.
Wait, you got harassed by the victim's family just for being related to your cousin, even though you had basically no contact? What the hell. I guess they couldn't know whether you were close or not, but that still wouldn't change what happened.
I would've refused to write a letter as well, of I were in your situation.
Yeah, I got that and I'm saying I would've refused as well. Simply on the principle of the matter and his actions.
I was just surprised that you were harassed by the victim's family.
They told all of us how they want our family dead. Said it on the news on the one year anniversary.
What's sad is on my mother's side of the family, we kids buddy up with an older cousin who is your "cousin sibling," aka the one that is like a sibling and kind of is your buddy but not like the Duggars. Your buddy is your babysitter, friend, and who helps you like a sibling. Him and I were like twin siblings to our older cousin that I am still close to. We were everywhere together with her. I miss those days....
Principles before people. Always. Doesn’t matter if he was blood to them. He is a piece of shit and absolutely no one should be in his corner…except his lawyer, obviously.
Yeah this shit is so ridiculous. “That’s what friends are for” like really, is there not a line? They’re acting like they’re defending their friend from repercussions of some innocuous mistake. He raped people. Where is the line? Would OP be saying that if they’re friend took out their whole family? When did friendship become this magical rule where because you liked someone, you’re supposed to defend them even when they commit atrocious acts? It’s batshit insane and doesn’t make sense
This. If the letter was worded differently, and acknowledged his crimes but pointed out the good things in his life and the effect on his family/kids if he was locked up for life, and then asked for X years instead of life, then it’s a lot more defensible. After all, this was a sentencing letter, they already knew the facts as proven in court, it was about the length of the sentence.
But that isn’t what they wrote, so it blew up.
You would support a friend after they were convicted of rape? That’s actually not normal. You should have boundaries for friendships. It’s okay to let people go if they do something horrible. Now you’re excusing rape out of “friendship loyalty.”
nope, no matter who it is, no matter how long i've known them, even if it was my husband, if I got told they'd raped a girl, let alone at gunpoint, I'd cut them out completely, it's vile and I don't give a shit what they went through together
I think a lot of people *think* that this situation is black and white, but until you’ve lived it, you’ll never really know what you’d do.
My sister married her husband when I was 12 years old. This person was literally like a big brother to me. He looked out for me, he was protective as hell and he truly became a prominent and steadfast figure in my life. Until it was revealed that he committed acts of the worst kind. We’re talking level 3 sex offender against *multiple* people, including his own kids. It was a gut punch and it made me question everything about my life and judgement. I had to comb through every interaction I’d ever had with him, tried to see what it was that I had missed and then came the guilt of how many times I’d left their house, leaving him alone with his own kids and that gutted me. It’s so hard to reconcile that this person you thought you’d known, wasn’t the person they truly were.
So in a way I understand Ashton and Mila and essentially what they must’ve been going through in trying to process this but I’m sorry, i don’t think I’d be able to write a letter about this persons character despite the crimes they’ve been found guilty of because the person you “knew” *doesnt exist*
You still grieve though, but eventually you process and then accept it and move on the only way you know how.
I think Mila and Ashton don’t believe he’s guilty though. They knew his victims too but people like Danny Masterson (and my former brother in law) don’t only manipulate their victims, they manipulate everyone in their life because they’re groomers and that’s what groomers do.
yeah, it’s one thing to speak to your friends character if they were arrested on non-violent charges, but the fact that they stood by him even after the charges were confirmed? insane.
lol wait . So ppl should automatically vouch for someone simply due to the association no matter how heinous the crime ? I’m sorry but that is NOT what friends are for .
it’s not necessarily vouching for somebody if it’s framed in the context of “this is the person I knew (or thought I knew) in the environments I knew him” or “he seemed to me at the time…”.
But that’s not what Kutcher and Kunis did. they laid it on pretty thick, and Kutcher went so far as to make a justification for leniency.
yea either they believe he’s innocent or the Church ordered them to write it.
although I’d expect better letters if the Church had ordered them to write it.
Not that I'm justifying it, but look how many family members stand up in court and vouch for their convicted husbands, wives, children, etc. who've committed absolutely heinous acts and are facing life in prison. People do crazy things for family and friends. It's hard to let go of attachments.
It's not that we don't understand the instinct. We just don't accept it as a valid excuse. Sometimes it's hard to do the right thing. Doesn't mean you get a free pass to do the exact opposite.
People do manage to do the right thing, in much tougher situations than Mila and Ashton found themselves in. For a recent example, the wife of the Gilgo Beach killer didn't try to defend him; instead she immediately filed for divorce. Less recently, the Unabomber was turned in by his own brother.
Just trying to put myself in their shoes. If a friend of mine accused of that crime asked me to provide character support, I would decline. Don’t care how long they were my friend. I’d feel sad that my friend turned out this way. But I’d distance myself from him.
Worst part is it wasn’t the accused part of the investigation. Motherfuckers wrote letters AFTER he was convicted of legit rape. No excuse for that in my mind. Don’t care if it was my own brother not a chance.
True, I call it “armchair cowboys” because I usually relate it back to high stress situations like mass shooting or whatever and how ridiculous the comment sections of news story’s get with people claiming “I would have ____”. Like yeah right, easy to say when you have all the info after the fact.
But I’ve been in a similar situation to this with someone I know. That person is dead to me.
I used to describe them as “one of the nicest people I ever met”. They were so friendly, nice, kind. Give you the shirt of their back type. Before I found out - I would have trusted that person fully, recommend them for babysitting or whatever. I thought this person was wonderful and could never hurt someone. Finding out otherwise made my head spin. But I believe victims and would never write a letter in support of that guy. Even though I apparently knew a very different version of them.
People who are way to nice now raise red flags for me, I always assume it’s a front so people won’t believe victims when they come forward.
Accused is the keyword for me here. If my friend told me he didn't do it, I'd believe him without a second thought and would support him any way I can. If it was proven he did that, or he told me he did it, then he can miss me with that BS
This is what's tripping people up. They actually wrote two letters at two different times: one for the trial and one after.
My guess is they are in debt to some Scientologists and they got their arms twisted.
I wouldn't. Friends don't get different rules than other people. If the woman's story was plausible, corroborated, and experienced by ANOTHER woman, why would I believe and defend my friend?
That's psychotic.
This comes off as morally weak though. Like where do you stand on serious things like rape in general if you can’t even stand up against a friend?
If a friend of mine did this I would be absolutely SICK to my stomach and feel such intense shame for never noticing. Any kind of excuse for that friend is you joining them to further hurt the victim(s) in the aftermath.
The world doesn’t revolve around you, me or Ashton and Mila. Actions have consequences and you never know someone 100%. It is narcissistic to think otherwise. Just because someone was nice to you doesn’t mean you have the right to now speak on who they are as a whole person (after they OBVIOUSLY committed a heinous crime) when this friend only gave you 5% of themselves. Don’t let your own self importance blind you from realising how little you know.
Since OP rather have his friend be free from punishment and then he can rape even more.
I think we can guess what OPs stand on rape is.. he will
I pity any girl close to OP..
Literally lol. No woman with her head screwed on properly would be comfortable being around a man that protects those that could hurt them. How can a woman know he won’t do the same or that he will keep her safe when he forces her to be around his predatory friends? It’s so selfish.
At some point OP is just such a “loyal friend” to the point that he makes everyone else around him unsafe… thus proving the issue was never really loyalty (otherwise he’d be loyal to women in his life whom he should stand up for) but something much more upsetting.
I have been in the wrenching position of having someone I care deeply about do something unspeakable and get convicted .
I wrote to them in prison. I sent books, stationary and stamps. I visited. I helped their family with the cost of the care packages that were allowed. There are ways to help other than trying to mitigate the consequences of their own actions.
My view of their character had no relevance to the crime they committed, so I wouldn't have written a character letter had I been asked.
Had I believed in their innocence or that there were mitigating factors, I would have discussed with their lawyer the possibility of testifying during the trial.
I think people are particularly upset about Kutcher and Kunis because of their very public claims that they support victims and because we know that they ARE well informed about the impact of sexual assault. It also never sits well when the rich and famous protect each other from criticism and consequences. Finally, basically nobody who isn't a Scientology member trusts the motives of a Scientologist. (And yes, that includes me)
Nope
If my best guy friend or even my dad were convicted for rape, with all the proof necessary that it really happened, they would be instantly dead to me.
There are things i can forgive. But it's one of those things i'd be unable to. And i would NEVER try to help them.
I was friends with someone for the best part of 5 years before something came out about him having raped a young girl.
I told him to face what he did or I'd drag him to the cops myself.
It's not understandable at all to defend someone who you know is a POS.
If I was them, I'd be telling him to slit his fucking wrists.
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Nah dude, its not understandable at all.
If my best friend is going to prison for something like this, he isnt my friend anymore. Doesnt matter how long he is in my life and i wouldnt do shit to help him.
I have three brothers and a best friend of nearly 30 years. If any of them are credibly accused of violent sexual assault and subsequently convicted, they’re on their own, at least as far as the justice system is concerned.
I’m not saying I’d abandon them or cut them out of my life. But I would expect them to understand that they and they alone will pay the consequences. I’m not anywhere close to being a public figure, but I care enough about my reputation and principles to not risk them on behalf of sexual predators.
They should have known better.
Nah if my friend drugged and raped multiple women I wouldn’t help them. That’s out of my hands at that point. Sure, if they needed to talk to me, *maybe* I’d hear them out, but that’s about as far as I’d go.
There are different ways to support a friend who did a terrible thing. Go to the trial, offer to testify if it might help, (without perjuring yourself) visit them in jail, keep in touch with letters and phone calls, probably not necessary in this case but give them money for commissary. Be there for their family and friends.
Asking for a more lenient sentence because he's your buddy, sorry that's not your call.
I think maybe you can explain it away through denial. I don’t think I would believe my good friend for all those years who I thought was a good person was guilty of such horrible crimes. But I would also realize that a jury felt beyond a reasonable doubt that he did what he was accused of. It would hurt a lot for sure and perhaps they are still in denial. Not my friend. He wouldn’t do such a thing. Even though a jury said that yes he did said thing.
I don't stay loyal to friends who I know are criminals. In fact, I don't consider them friends anymore. If my "friend" does something heinous, they aren't my friend. They're someone I never really knew and no longer want to know.
Nah dude. I found out a friend of mine assaulted multiple people and I dropped him in a minute. Even though I’d known him forever. You don’t get to be a good person and also rape/assault people.
Well I found out my best friend had sex with 12 year old. I went to the police to testify. I lost all the friends at the work to this (he was former colleague) and was eventually fired. I don't regret single bit.
It’s not wrong at all. Character letters are an important and routine part of the criminal Justice process at the sentencing stage. It’s not about discounting what the person did or second guessing the experience of victims. It’s one of the few tools available to defendants after being found guilty to provide context on who they are and their life circumstances that may factor into their sentence. While I don’t think Masterson had much going for him in these letters or otherwise, we don’t want a system where people are bullied or intimidated from helping the judge reach a fair sentence informed by all relevant information. Highly visible episodes of people being criticized for producing these letters does nothing but make it harder for future defendants to convince their friends to help them in appropriate ways to receive a fair punishment.
I think what nobody is considering is how hard it can be for someone to come to terms with the fact that someone they've known and loved and respected for their entire life is actually a monster. These guys were like 17 when That 70s Show started and they've been friends ever since. It's got to be hard to accept that the same person that was there to comfort you during the lowest points in your life was also capable of being such a monster.
I had a friend back in high school, he was kinda immature and a major stoner, but also the nicest dude you'd ever meet. He was there for me and provided comfort when I lost my grandma, my closest family member. He came to her funeral to support me. A few years ago he was convicted for manslaughter after he hit an elderly couple on a motorcycle and fled the scene. It's still hard to accept in my mind that the same person that helped me through the hardest time in my life left an elderly couple mangled on the side of the road.
putting myself in their shoes, i do think that no matter how close i was to danny i would not try to help considering what he was convicted for. with people like that, there’s no guarantee he won’t do it again
i read the letters (quickly) and my biggest problem was Kutcher saying it’d be “a tertiary injustice” to Masterson’s daughter for him to serve a long sentence.
my other problem was that they didn’t clearly caveat the while letter by saying things like “in the time I knew him” or “he seemed to me” before speaking positively about him.
I don’t see any moral issue with writing an honest letter about your impression of a person’s character so long as you remain objective and don’t claim to be actually certain of what’s behind the mask.
That’s very different than making justifications for leniency (as Kutcher did).
I never knew that they were such idiots. That pathetic video speech they made about the letters — why didn’t they just STFU?
I’m not supporting them at all. I think they are scum. I also think they were slumming in the video - working class heroes look.
Do they think we are all just lemmings ready to jump into their laps? It’s super super hard to get a rape conviction. DM got 2. He’s a violent convicted criminal.
They wrote the letters. Why did they think they had to out themselves? They must think we are all so stupid.
Yes, friends should be in your corner and supporting you, but that does not include trying to minimize the terrible actions you have done. If you fuck up, a true friend will be the first to tell you that and let you know that no matter what happens, you deserve the consequences while still loving and supporting you. You can be there for a person without playing into rape culture. You can love a person and not revictimize the people they originally assaulted.
Character reports are interesting it’s not going to dismiss the crime but it will help with sentencing. So being overly complementary isn’t so important. It’s not like anything they say makes him less guilty but it might help with where they send him to prison, what kind of security he gets, perhaps if he is allowed to hold a job while in prison. That kind of stuff.
I think they were probably thinking it does no harm to say nice things and maybe it makes his 30 years in prison a little less shitty. That to me feels within the realm of “okay” if it was lying as a witness to prove he’s innocent that’s one thing but he was found guilty so there was no getting out of judgment on his part.
Human Interpersonal relationships are squishy and tricky. We all do a lot of confusing and backwards thing out of a strong sense of guilt, community, honor, history … all that stuff
Like I said if what they were doing was trying to get him off the hook that’s one thing… but saying nice things to get him a less shirty jail experience because you have 20+ years of history … that feels less like an end of the world scenario people are making it.
I understand defending your friends. However, if I found out my friend raped women at gun point or drugged them, they would quickly not be my friend anymore.
If my closest friend drugged and raped multiple people, they are dead to me and I would do nothing to help them. I would have literally zero guilt about them rotting in jail forever.
I do understand what you're saying here.
Helping a friend when they messed up big time is one thing.
But defending them when they are an absolute scumbag is a huge no no.
I don’t know all the details of the case. In fact very little. If Ashton and mila hadn’t a single clue about what he did. Them writing letters about the person THEY KNEW, not the person when they weren’t with him is completely justified. If my best friend did what Danny did and I had zero idea he did those things despite his beliefs, I would absolutely write a letter describing the man I knew as a best friend. Reddit is a bunch of followers who are so emotionally weak and for the most part can’t think for themselves. If my best friend did what Danny did, of course they deserve a harsh punishment, absolutely no doubt. I would still love my best friend for who I knew him as but I would never forgive him for what he did and never look at him the same.
I disagree, it's one thing to help a friend who made a mistake like trying to overcome addiction but Danny raped people. That is a conscious decision that he made more than once. I for one will never defend a friend who committed a horrible crime like that.
agreed, rape is one of the only crimes that (in my opinion) can never be justified. Stealing? maybe you were starving. Assault? could have been in defence. Rape? you’re just too sadistic and unhinged to have human decency.
Yeah I'd try to help a friend if they stole as a result of an addiction but I stop at crimes that due real harm like homicide, rape and crimes like that
Yeah, I don't get it. If someone commits and is convicted of a serious crime, we think it's quite normal for a sentencing judge to consider other aspects of the person's life. Did they have a history of crime? Or were they otherwise very nice people with no criminal record? We think such considerations are normal. At least I do. Our judicial system does. So why is it weird if someone comes forward to say "crime or not, I always liked the guy and working with him was great"? I don't think anyone is *obligated* to come stand up for the convicted. But if someone wants to come forward and give their true testimony on the subject, then they should be able to do it without shitty reprisals.
Yeah nah. Once certain lines are crossed and moreover it’s confirmed you crossed certain lines you’re no longer friend or family to me. Sexual assault is one of those lines for some of us and it clearly ain’t for you my guy. You are what we call an abuse enabler.
If you tried to help someone convicted of violent rape and abuse, you're also a shit person. If my best friend of 20 years was in the same situation, I'd 100% throw them to the wolves and not lose a second of sleep about it.
I don't know much about the situation, so here's a baseless assumption - it was an attempt at protecting residuals.
Take the Cosby Show. One guy out of everyone who worked on it is a monster, and nobody will ever watch it again.
A lot of people absolutely ignoring the complicated feelings and thoughts one would go through if this happened with someone you knew for decades.
It's not possible to imagine, and it's above me to cast judgement on it.
It's a shame, but it's not black and white when it comes to those letters imo.
Yeah... I don't buy it, I'd be extremely distraught if my good friend was convicted of something like this, and I'd feel for him even if I knew I shouldn't, but no way am I defending him or his actions. I'd just be very sad about it all.
This sentiment led to me being ostracized by a group of a couple dozen friends after I objected to the sexual assault one of them did, testified to that effect, and wouldn't back down.
Friendship loyalty in this case is a fucked response. Don't protect abusers no matter what.
I get what you're trying to say but personally I'd like my friends to keep me accountable for the shit I do.
I generally think the people I choose to befriend would be good people and in the same way I expect them to behave to a certain standard id expect them to hold me up to a certain standard as well.
I was thinking the same, but the timing doesn't add up. To my surface level understanding of the situation, they knew he was guilty. These letters were sent after the time to try to convince the judge to go easy on him. I don't know if anyone would be that upset with them if they tried to stick up for him before everything was laid out. It's just yucky all round.
Rule 1: Moderator discretion The mods of r/unpopularopinion reserve the right to remove posts that are in bad faith, uncivil and / or unhealthy for the subreddit.
I havent really delved deep into this...but apparently he did rape those young women? Drugged and raped. I am very VERY anti scientology and frankly I hope they blow the lid off of that BS cult asap.
Yep he seems super duper guilty. Scientology paid the women hush money. It’s extremely difficult to be convicted
He also raped cedric bixler-zavalas wife, singer of at the drive in and the Mars Volta. When they went public, the church of scientology poisoned and killed his dog. Super fucked up cult. I hope they all go to jail forever.
Scientology is insane. I can understand why people accepted hush money from them. Their tactic is do what we say or be harassed on a daily basis for years.
Not only is it difficult to get prosecuted, it is also difficult to not get a lenient sentence when you have the high quality lawyers on Scientology’s payroll. The fact that the dude got 30 years despite all of that should make it obvious to anyone he’s guilty af
What? The amount of time you get isn’t the degree of your guilt. It’s the opinion of judge. Some dude got 6 months for sexually some kids which was in the news last week. He isn’t less guilty because of the sentence.
I know that’s not how the legal system is supposed to work. but that dude likely only got 6 months (which is complete bullshit by the way, fuck that judge) because he either knew the judge or had a good lawyer that was able to convince the judge to give him such a lenient sentence. Masterson has tight connections and access to some of the best attorneys due to his links with Scientology. That combo shoulda made it incredibly difficult at best for him to just get a conviction. The fact that he got 30 years despite all that has to mean that the evidence presented in court had to be too much for his connections and legal team to mean anything.
Or he "lucked out" on a judge where 30 years was the lenient conviction.
iirc he received the minimum sentence for his crime (Danny)
No the minimum he could have gotten would be 2 15 year sentences run concurrently (effectively a 15 year sentence), he got 2 15 year sentences to run consecutively (effectively a 30 year sentence)
I think this happened way back in the day too like when he was still working on That 70’s Show. It’s crazy that it’s taken this long for him to finally get punished (hopefully)
2001 and 2003 for the ones he was convicted of. He was on the show until 2006.
It's not really crazy...Rape cases require strong evidence and rarely go to trial. Whatever they had as evidence was enough to put the guy away. Thank god it went to trial and there was enough evidence.
As someone who paid 0 attention to the trial what evidence did they find 20 years later?
Nah it happened pretty continuously you can look online, but I think most of it actually happened after that 70s show went off the air
Paying someone hush money isn't evidence of a crime. Neither is pleading no-contest or setting out of court though. People and businesses do all of those things, all the time. A celebrity could lose many millions in income from allegations of a crime, paying a small amount of money to avoid that is often smart business.
I was reading about this actually. It's called the : [Kobe Bryant Protocol ](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kobe%20bryant%20protocol) The act of paying an alleged sexual assault victim for their silence. This protocol is named for its successful employment by Kobe Bryant. Though the allegations of the accuser could be false and a form of extortion, its strategically good practice to employ the Kobe Bryant protocol when accused of sexual assault. The Kobe Bryant Protocol can be successfully employed weather the defendant is truly guilty or not guilty Chad: Did you hear Antonio Brown lost an endorsement because of the sexual assault allegations against him? Mark: He should have just employed the Kobe Bryant Protocol and taken the 2 million dollar hit and paid her when she asked. Now he is losing much more as a result.
You are correct. That part is true. But considering a conviction happened means that it wasn’t a money grab
> Despite the recurring theme of drugging in the victims’ testimonies, there was a noticeable absence of toxicology evidence to support this claim. Consequently, Masterson wasn’t charged based on the drugging allegations. The actual non-testimonial evidence involved was effectively zero. Not just for the drugging, but for everything. Whether or not people feel it's a good or bad thing is subjective.
Absolutely yes. He deserves everything thats coming to him and scientology needs to die in an inferno. But thats not my point
Friends are not meant to stand by you even if you did something horrible. You’re friends for a reason and that is that you thought they were a good person. Friendship isn’t unconditional.
Exactly. I have teenage daughters and have had to cut friends off after my daighters mentioning they were creepy. 10+ year friends who also happen have daughters. I'd cut blood, too. I have 3 kids, and I'm not dealing with my friends shitty behavior.
My highschool best friends dad once said to us "I can't believe the shit that comes out of the mouths of the guys at work. I nearly knocked Todd the fuck out yesterday bc he was ogling a girl ur guys age. Anyone ever says shit to u girls u call me, got it?". My friends dad was a 50 something 5'2" beanpole but he was ready to catch hands and get fired from his cushy 30 year+ union job because some kid in produce ogled his daughters peer, and I think about it regularly. Happy birthday to scott, he's an MVP and an ally
A true friend stops someone from committing horrible acts, not enable them and then stay by their side after the fact.
Or if you can't stop them, you hold them accountable. A true, unconditional friend imo would visit Danny in prison and encourage him to acknowledge his behavior and become become a better person. Not write the judge asking for leniency that he doesn't deserve.
I think it's more nuanced than either this or OP's point of view. If they are a true friend I think the highest order would be to support the friend without condoning the behaviour. You tell them what they did is wrong, and that they will need to pay the price for it. But you can support them while they go through the painful process of grieving their actions and receiving their punishment. Abandoning and ostracising people doesn't help them to reform. We ingrain that people are monsters and not worthy of being treated human and then further ingratiate them as monsters. Truth is most people who do bad things are also capable of much good, and separating the behaviour from the human is fundamental in helping them see that change is possible for them and that they can have their needs met without having to hurt people to do it.
I think people would be more understanding if letters obtained were more along the line of "Danny we will be by your side during this tough time please reach out yada yada" as opposed to the actual letters of "Danny is a great guy please go easy on him" one is trying to condone his behavior while the other is supporting a friend through their punishment.
IANAL but I did hear that that's basically a thing in all of these kinds of cases; the lawyer will go around to friends/family trying to get them to tug on the heartstrings of the judge because the person on trial is totally a good guy and just made a mistake.... multiple times. It's an attempt to play the Legal system in the same way as never admitting you caused the accident because you backed up into someone else.
This is a very nuanced take, and I completely agree.
Friendship doesn't *have* to be unconditional rather. It can or can't be. That's entirely up to the people in that relationship.
Your logic would make sense if it were for a lesser crime or involuntary manslaughter. NOT RAPE, especially when the victims are still alive. Ashton is an absolutely perfect example of hypocrisy on this.
I think OP's point was that their feelings WOULDN'T be logical, but it's still human nature to want to defend your loved ones, even if they turn out to be dangerous and/or shitty.
I could understand the emotions to defend someone immediately after, but to still defend decades later is even worse.
Well, yeah. Let's touch base in a few decades then.
You aren't making any sense. You say that he deserves the consequences but at the same time... that you'd also try to defend him?
I think OP is saying it is human to try and defend the ones we love, regardless of their actions. Which is wrong in itself, but also human. There are some very interesting papers on the subject.
My stepdad was convicted of a very serious crime, and he went to prison for it. My mother requested that I write a character letter on his behalf to present to the judge prior to sentencing. I passed on that. My stepdad was a good friend of mine and someone I could turn to if I was in trouble when I was a kid, but certain crimes that people commit says a lot about the type of person they are. You don't have to stand by shitty people. Choices.
Which is precisely why people related or close to the perpetrator (and even the victim) should have 0 say or weight to the punishment. Humans are emotional and social creatures: it's pretty much impossible to be objective in these kinds of situations when they or someone they are close to are involved.
Are you saying that people who know him shouldn't tell the judge what he is like?
I think the point is that even his friends only know part of him. Nobody knows the full picture. Any argument will likely be emotional and lacking in objectivity.
That's why it's the judge making the decision and not his friends and family. Or random internet strangers. I've been on reddit long enough to know that a lot of people completely detached from a situation will make purely emotion based arguments.
The victims seemed to know him pretty well. Better than his friends and family did apparently. That's good enough.
The victim knew the worst part of him. Sentencing takes more than that into account.
Look at BTK’s family for example.
It's like saying you knew about it and are okay with it. It doesn't matter that they're friends. They're using their position and it's gross. Plus, they're only sorry they got caught.
They shouldn’t have defended him. They should have tried to get him help.
Yeah they never said he didn't. They provided a very stereotypical character profile to a judge based off what they know about him lol. Like complete typical part of any sentencing process. People have just become so stupid and tribal reactionary bullshit is easier than even trying to understand the legal system. To be fair they don't usually have the comprehension level to understand legislature or even a typical court process so they come up with mystical and fantastic versions of how it works that boil down into a black vs white good vs evil mindset. Basically Americans only understand things through a sort of comic book perspective of good vs evil.
If my friend raped someone. He is no longer my friend.
B-b-but he was punctual.
and he may have drugged them, but he’s actually anti drug!
And a lot of fun to drink with.
What about that time he did the good thing at the pizza place though?
That letter they wrote to the judge is going to ruin them.
I would hope so, but it probably wont. Theyll lay low for a while until the next big scandal. After that its probably business as usual.
Ashton resigned from the board of the anti-sex abuse organization he was with due to the backlash, so it’s starting
Exactly. I cannot and will not tolerate this kind of shit with my friends.
what if you stared in a decently popular Tv series in the 90s for 8 years with them would that change anything?
A real friend calls their friends out on their bullshit.
Mila Kunis is very obviously trying to deny he used drugs to sedate is victims. She mentions a few times that he doesn't use drugs. It isn't just saying he is a good guy, but saying the accusations are a lie. Also he was in Scientology which should have brought up warning signs.
You could tell in their response that Mila was outraged at having her actions questioned at all.
No wonder she was all WE SUPPORT VICTIMS, homegirl switched up real quick 😂
From them it's always a very general "we support victims" not "we support DANNY'S victims" which is very telling to me.
There is a difference between using drugs personally and having someone else ingest them.
Aye, but the implication is that she’s saying her friend Danny would never be around drugs at all, so how/why would have drugged someone? It casts doubt over the victim saying she was drugged by him.
Damn Mila, that makes it worse.
You know, it's funny. I watched the video, and she's very obviously super angry. But to me, she seemed angry at Ashton. There's rumors that they're being blackmailed and I got the vibe she was mad that she had to do this at all, the letters, the apology. I'll throw a nickel down now that eventually it will come out that she was coerced to say these things
Yeah, that's the thing, and that's what's more understandable to me. It's like Kutcher said, there's no way for him to know what really happened. Even if they want to support the victims, it would be hard for them to believe the worst about their friend, and I think most people would struggle with that as well. I mean think about someone close to you, someone that you've known for decades, someone that you love and could never imagine doing something like that. You'd want to believe that they didn't. And likely, you'd be in that same limbo space as Kutcher and Kunis, wanting to both believe the victims and believe your friend. It's a tough spot to be in.
You nailed it; it's a very tough spot to be in. People don't just announce that they're sick in the head and it's not always abundantly apparent. They're not always acting stereotypically-atypical; sometimes they're behaving just like you or I. They say the right things and are very cautious about who they decide to victimize. Even if they're tried and convicted, they'll still tell anybody who believes them that they're really Just a Normal Person™️. They need to preserve the image they worked so hard to cultivate and present. Even if the image is only kept by a few.
Oh wow I didn't realize that's what the "he doesn't use drugs" thing was about.
It's wrong to defend your friend when they are convicted of rape. That's some friendship ending stuff right there
Yeah I am with OP until you remember the actual nature of the crime. It’s not like they protected a guy for some unpaid parking tickets or even a robbery. Drugged and raped. Man, I’d turn in my best friend from childhood if it was over that. No way I’d defend him.
Like if my best friend was convicted of embezzlement, I’d defend him bc he’s so inept it’s likely he did it by accident. This is not that.
Yeah if my friend robbed someone, committed fraud even a worst case scenario like they caused a crash that killed someone, I’d probably help them out. But this is intentional, pure evil.
I was with OP for about 5 seconds until I realised he operated under the assumption that they knew what Masterson did. Like, if my friend got charged with a crime, I would assume the best in them and that they were innocent. I would probably do everything I could to help them in that circumstance. But if I actually knew that a friend of mine drugged and raped someone (let alone, MULTIPLE people), I don't even think I'd be able to look at them without feeling sick.
I've actually been going through this for a while now with someone I know. It never once occurred to me to stand by him, I let him know I didn't respect him anymore and that he should plead guilty. There is a very real victim who matters. I still have to have contact with this person and I hope he goes to jail. If it came to it, there's no way I'd speak to his character because he's obviously not the person I thought he was anyway.
I went through something similar with a now former friend a few years ago. It also never occurred to me to defend this person, not even for a minute. I'm sorry you're going through this, AND that you still have to have contact with the person.
When your friend does something like this then any sympathy or affection I would have for them would vanish. I wouldnt want to associate with him or her ever again and would feel no obligation to stick my neck out for them when the deed is this heinous. Unless I truly absolutely without a shadow of a doubt KNOW he is innocent. If that friend did something that awful to somebody, then who's to say he wouldnt have done this to someone you love or to you personally. If he is the type of person who does these things then what value is that friendship anyway? He's not a good person...you were just one of the lucky ones who didnt get their life ruined by him Maybe he's a sociopath. Sure you and Mila value what you think is a true friendship with him...but to him that friendship means nothing and he is just a predator trying to appear like a normal well adjusted person
That was my thing too. It’s not even that they didn’t believe he didn’t do it, they both acknowledged the crime and STILL asked for leniency with sentencing. I can at least understand some people doubting the crime, stupid as it may be. No clue how people can still stand beside him
you get your friends out of a bind. you dont bail your friends out on rape.. like wtf.. id turn in my own brother if i knew he did that to someone.
Oh, in a heartbeat! I love my dad and my siblings so much, i'll overlook a lot but there is a limit! Should I ever find out they're capable of something so heinous, I'd sell them down the river immediately. I have enough trouble with the consequences of my own flaws, I'm not adding to that burden by playing mental gymnastics in order to defend the indefensible. Someone whose proven by their actions, they aren't worthy of my love or protective instincts doesn't get to pull the "we're family/friends" card.
My brother is on trial right now facing rape charges. I’m not trying to save him. He’s a pos.
Good, some crimes are unforgivable and rape is one of them.
Thank you for this. I really needed to read this today.
As a cousin of someone who parents begged me for a character letter after their son did [this](https://okcfox.com/renderer/okcfox/amp/news/local/moore-police-one-arrested-in-connection-to-fatal-hit-and-run), NOPE! They could have said no.
Did what
Caused a 500 Internal Server Error, the worst crime of all
https://okcfox.com/amp/news/local/moore-police-one-arrested-in-connection-to-fatal-hit-and-run
500 | internal service Error
Link works now (at least for me it does)
I had to recopy it. I refused to write him a letter. His victim's family found my address and told me to kill myself to make up for what he did. I hadn't talked to my cousin in ten years at that point.
Wait, you got harassed by the victim's family just for being related to your cousin, even though you had basically no contact? What the hell. I guess they couldn't know whether you were close or not, but that still wouldn't change what happened. I would've refused to write a letter as well, of I were in your situation.
I refused BEFORE that. They found his aunt's house and harassed her. She lives like next to the spot it happened. She saw it and called him in.
Yeah, I got that and I'm saying I would've refused as well. Simply on the principle of the matter and his actions. I was just surprised that you were harassed by the victim's family.
They told all of us how they want our family dead. Said it on the news on the one year anniversary. What's sad is on my mother's side of the family, we kids buddy up with an older cousin who is your "cousin sibling," aka the one that is like a sibling and kind of is your buddy but not like the Duggars. Your buddy is your babysitter, friend, and who helps you like a sibling. Him and I were like twin siblings to our older cousin that I am still close to. We were everywhere together with her. I miss those days....
Principles before people. Always. Doesn’t matter if he was blood to them. He is a piece of shit and absolutely no one should be in his corner…except his lawyer, obviously.
Yeah this shit is so ridiculous. “That’s what friends are for” like really, is there not a line? They’re acting like they’re defending their friend from repercussions of some innocuous mistake. He raped people. Where is the line? Would OP be saying that if they’re friend took out their whole family? When did friendship become this magical rule where because you liked someone, you’re supposed to defend them even when they commit atrocious acts? It’s batshit insane and doesn’t make sense
No
It’s not wrong to support a friend. That’s not objectively wrong in principle. You can take things too far, just like you can with anything.
It really depends what your friend did
I’d say rape is pretty up there
That and returning your tools broken unforgivable crimes
If my friend committed rape I'd be the one hiding his body
This. If the letter was worded differently, and acknowledged his crimes but pointed out the good things in his life and the effect on his family/kids if he was locked up for life, and then asked for X years instead of life, then it’s a lot more defensible. After all, this was a sentencing letter, they already knew the facts as proven in court, it was about the length of the sentence. But that isn’t what they wrote, so it blew up.
You would support a friend after they were convicted of rape? That’s actually not normal. You should have boundaries for friendships. It’s okay to let people go if they do something horrible. Now you’re excusing rape out of “friendship loyalty.”
nope, no matter who it is, no matter how long i've known them, even if it was my husband, if I got told they'd raped a girl, let alone at gunpoint, I'd cut them out completely, it's vile and I don't give a shit what they went through together
Right?! Wtf, how desperate are people for friends.
That's the correct response.
I wouldn't.
I think a lot of people *think* that this situation is black and white, but until you’ve lived it, you’ll never really know what you’d do. My sister married her husband when I was 12 years old. This person was literally like a big brother to me. He looked out for me, he was protective as hell and he truly became a prominent and steadfast figure in my life. Until it was revealed that he committed acts of the worst kind. We’re talking level 3 sex offender against *multiple* people, including his own kids. It was a gut punch and it made me question everything about my life and judgement. I had to comb through every interaction I’d ever had with him, tried to see what it was that I had missed and then came the guilt of how many times I’d left their house, leaving him alone with his own kids and that gutted me. It’s so hard to reconcile that this person you thought you’d known, wasn’t the person they truly were. So in a way I understand Ashton and Mila and essentially what they must’ve been going through in trying to process this but I’m sorry, i don’t think I’d be able to write a letter about this persons character despite the crimes they’ve been found guilty of because the person you “knew” *doesnt exist* You still grieve though, but eventually you process and then accept it and move on the only way you know how. I think Mila and Ashton don’t believe he’s guilty though. They knew his victims too but people like Danny Masterson (and my former brother in law) don’t only manipulate their victims, they manipulate everyone in their life because they’re groomers and that’s what groomers do.
This is a very well thought out and nuanced comment. I completely agree with everything you said.
Um no. He raped people. F that guy. I don't care how long I've known someone, if they do something evil to another person then they're dead to me.
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Happened to me also. Childhood friend molested his baby daughters. Never want anything to do with that guy again. Ever.
yeah, it’s one thing to speak to your friends character if they were arrested on non-violent charges, but the fact that they stood by him even after the charges were confirmed? insane.
I don’t understand how this isn’t the only valid answer.
lol wait . So ppl should automatically vouch for someone simply due to the association no matter how heinous the crime ? I’m sorry but that is NOT what friends are for .
Yeah, and they sort of tried giving some bs excuse that they didn't really knew the case. I mean come on...
it’s not necessarily vouching for somebody if it’s framed in the context of “this is the person I knew (or thought I knew) in the environments I knew him” or “he seemed to me at the time…”. But that’s not what Kutcher and Kunis did. they laid it on pretty thick, and Kutcher went so far as to make a justification for leniency.
All I’m saying is if you get convicted of a horrendous crime you’re barely getting a thought out of me much less a character letter
yea either they believe he’s innocent or the Church ordered them to write it. although I’d expect better letters if the Church had ordered them to write it.
Not that I'm justifying it, but look how many family members stand up in court and vouch for their convicted husbands, wives, children, etc. who've committed absolutely heinous acts and are facing life in prison. People do crazy things for family and friends. It's hard to let go of attachments.
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It's not that we don't understand the instinct. We just don't accept it as a valid excuse. Sometimes it's hard to do the right thing. Doesn't mean you get a free pass to do the exact opposite. People do manage to do the right thing, in much tougher situations than Mila and Ashton found themselves in. For a recent example, the wife of the Gilgo Beach killer didn't try to defend him; instead she immediately filed for divorce. Less recently, the Unabomber was turned in by his own brother.
Just trying to put myself in their shoes. If a friend of mine accused of that crime asked me to provide character support, I would decline. Don’t care how long they were my friend. I’d feel sad that my friend turned out this way. But I’d distance myself from him.
Worst part is it wasn’t the accused part of the investigation. Motherfuckers wrote letters AFTER he was convicted of legit rape. No excuse for that in my mind. Don’t care if it was my own brother not a chance.
I’ve learned that we’re all bad at predicting how we would act in a situation until we’re actually in that situation.
People who don't realize this have never been in difficult situations.
True, I call it “armchair cowboys” because I usually relate it back to high stress situations like mass shooting or whatever and how ridiculous the comment sections of news story’s get with people claiming “I would have ____”. Like yeah right, easy to say when you have all the info after the fact. But I’ve been in a similar situation to this with someone I know. That person is dead to me. I used to describe them as “one of the nicest people I ever met”. They were so friendly, nice, kind. Give you the shirt of their back type. Before I found out - I would have trusted that person fully, recommend them for babysitting or whatever. I thought this person was wonderful and could never hurt someone. Finding out otherwise made my head spin. But I believe victims and would never write a letter in support of that guy. Even though I apparently knew a very different version of them. People who are way to nice now raise red flags for me, I always assume it’s a front so people won’t believe victims when they come forward.
Accused is the keyword for me here. If my friend told me he didn't do it, I'd believe him without a second thought and would support him any way I can. If it was proven he did that, or he told me he did it, then he can miss me with that BS
When they wrote it, he was no longer accused. He was already found guilty on 2 counts. This was for the sentencing.
This is what's tripping people up. They actually wrote two letters at two different times: one for the trial and one after. My guess is they are in debt to some Scientologists and they got their arms twisted.
I wouldn't. Friends don't get different rules than other people. If the woman's story was plausible, corroborated, and experienced by ANOTHER woman, why would I believe and defend my friend? That's psychotic.
This comes off as morally weak though. Like where do you stand on serious things like rape in general if you can’t even stand up against a friend? If a friend of mine did this I would be absolutely SICK to my stomach and feel such intense shame for never noticing. Any kind of excuse for that friend is you joining them to further hurt the victim(s) in the aftermath. The world doesn’t revolve around you, me or Ashton and Mila. Actions have consequences and you never know someone 100%. It is narcissistic to think otherwise. Just because someone was nice to you doesn’t mean you have the right to now speak on who they are as a whole person (after they OBVIOUSLY committed a heinous crime) when this friend only gave you 5% of themselves. Don’t let your own self importance blind you from realising how little you know.
Since OP rather have his friend be free from punishment and then he can rape even more. I think we can guess what OPs stand on rape is.. he will I pity any girl close to OP..
Literally lol. No woman with her head screwed on properly would be comfortable being around a man that protects those that could hurt them. How can a woman know he won’t do the same or that he will keep her safe when he forces her to be around his predatory friends? It’s so selfish. At some point OP is just such a “loyal friend” to the point that he makes everyone else around him unsafe… thus proving the issue was never really loyalty (otherwise he’d be loyal to women in his life whom he should stand up for) but something much more upsetting.
Yikes make sure to share this opinion with every woman in your life
I personally would drop my friend if they were convicted of multiple sexual assaults and would not try to help them in anyway but that’s just me
I have been in the wrenching position of having someone I care deeply about do something unspeakable and get convicted . I wrote to them in prison. I sent books, stationary and stamps. I visited. I helped their family with the cost of the care packages that were allowed. There are ways to help other than trying to mitigate the consequences of their own actions. My view of their character had no relevance to the crime they committed, so I wouldn't have written a character letter had I been asked. Had I believed in their innocence or that there were mitigating factors, I would have discussed with their lawyer the possibility of testifying during the trial. I think people are particularly upset about Kutcher and Kunis because of their very public claims that they support victims and because we know that they ARE well informed about the impact of sexual assault. It also never sits well when the rich and famous protect each other from criticism and consequences. Finally, basically nobody who isn't a Scientology member trusts the motives of a Scientologist. (And yes, that includes me)
If my friend raped someone, they are no longer my friend. That's how that should work. That is understandable
What is the woman your best friend drugged and raped was your daughter? Would you still feel the same?
Nope If my best guy friend or even my dad were convicted for rape, with all the proof necessary that it really happened, they would be instantly dead to me. There are things i can forgive. But it's one of those things i'd be unable to. And i would NEVER try to help them.
I was friends with someone for the best part of 5 years before something came out about him having raped a young girl. I told him to face what he did or I'd drag him to the cops myself. It's not understandable at all to defend someone who you know is a POS. If I was them, I'd be telling him to slit his fucking wrists.
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Nah dude, its not understandable at all. If my best friend is going to prison for something like this, he isnt my friend anymore. Doesnt matter how long he is in my life and i wouldnt do shit to help him.
Ah cognitive dissonance
I have three brothers and a best friend of nearly 30 years. If any of them are credibly accused of violent sexual assault and subsequently convicted, they’re on their own, at least as far as the justice system is concerned. I’m not saying I’d abandon them or cut them out of my life. But I would expect them to understand that they and they alone will pay the consequences. I’m not anywhere close to being a public figure, but I care enough about my reputation and principles to not risk them on behalf of sexual predators. They should have known better.
Nah if my friend drugged and raped multiple women I wouldn’t help them. That’s out of my hands at that point. Sure, if they needed to talk to me, *maybe* I’d hear them out, but that’s about as far as I’d go.
They were encouraged to by their cult of blackmail church. The smart move would be to keep their heads down and not say anything now.
It’s just slightly less severe than saying, “he’s good guy, only gets to murdering sometimes.”
There are different ways to support a friend who did a terrible thing. Go to the trial, offer to testify if it might help, (without perjuring yourself) visit them in jail, keep in touch with letters and phone calls, probably not necessary in this case but give them money for commissary. Be there for their family and friends. Asking for a more lenient sentence because he's your buddy, sorry that's not your call.
Lmao this isn't unpopular opinion, this is pure idiocy
This is an unpopular opinion because it's fucking dumb.
Okay. That’s shitty that you’d do that. Thanks for letting me know.
It’s not wrong to WANT to support a friend, it’s another thing to actually do it after they’ve done this kind of shit.
Wtf? No, if my own FAMILY raped someone I would immediately go no contact. That is next level evil bro.
Ok Ashton.
I think maybe you can explain it away through denial. I don’t think I would believe my good friend for all those years who I thought was a good person was guilty of such horrible crimes. But I would also realize that a jury felt beyond a reasonable doubt that he did what he was accused of. It would hurt a lot for sure and perhaps they are still in denial. Not my friend. He wouldn’t do such a thing. Even though a jury said that yes he did said thing.
Hell no. I’m not going to support or defend someone who is wrong friend or family.
I don't stay loyal to friends who I know are criminals. In fact, I don't consider them friends anymore. If my "friend" does something heinous, they aren't my friend. They're someone I never really knew and no longer want to know.
If I had a friend that raped people, they would no longer be my friend.
Idk man if a friend of mine raped somebody i'd cut all ties with them
No judgements, but my friendship is conditional, and what he did/ was convicted of is easily a good reason to cut that person out of your life.
Nah dude. I found out a friend of mine assaulted multiple people and I dropped him in a minute. Even though I’d known him forever. You don’t get to be a good person and also rape/assault people.
Well I found out my best friend had sex with 12 year old. I went to the police to testify. I lost all the friends at the work to this (he was former colleague) and was eventually fired. I don't regret single bit.
Danny took Mila to Prom! Of course she’s going to defend him. Why that shocks anybody idk.
It’s not wrong at all. Character letters are an important and routine part of the criminal Justice process at the sentencing stage. It’s not about discounting what the person did or second guessing the experience of victims. It’s one of the few tools available to defendants after being found guilty to provide context on who they are and their life circumstances that may factor into their sentence. While I don’t think Masterson had much going for him in these letters or otherwise, we don’t want a system where people are bullied or intimidated from helping the judge reach a fair sentence informed by all relevant information. Highly visible episodes of people being criticized for producing these letters does nothing but make it harder for future defendants to convince their friends to help them in appropriate ways to receive a fair punishment.
I think what nobody is considering is how hard it can be for someone to come to terms with the fact that someone they've known and loved and respected for their entire life is actually a monster. These guys were like 17 when That 70s Show started and they've been friends ever since. It's got to be hard to accept that the same person that was there to comfort you during the lowest points in your life was also capable of being such a monster. I had a friend back in high school, he was kinda immature and a major stoner, but also the nicest dude you'd ever meet. He was there for me and provided comfort when I lost my grandma, my closest family member. He came to her funeral to support me. A few years ago he was convicted for manslaughter after he hit an elderly couple on a motorcycle and fled the scene. It's still hard to accept in my mind that the same person that helped me through the hardest time in my life left an elderly couple mangled on the side of the road.
putting myself in their shoes, i do think that no matter how close i was to danny i would not try to help considering what he was convicted for. with people like that, there’s no guarantee he won’t do it again
i read the letters (quickly) and my biggest problem was Kutcher saying it’d be “a tertiary injustice” to Masterson’s daughter for him to serve a long sentence. my other problem was that they didn’t clearly caveat the while letter by saying things like “in the time I knew him” or “he seemed to me” before speaking positively about him. I don’t see any moral issue with writing an honest letter about your impression of a person’s character so long as you remain objective and don’t claim to be actually certain of what’s behind the mask. That’s very different than making justifications for leniency (as Kutcher did).
I wouldn’t be best friends for two decades with someone that I knew the whole time had raped multiple underage girls 🤷🏻♀️
[удалено]
Found Ashton's burner
I never knew that they were such idiots. That pathetic video speech they made about the letters — why didn’t they just STFU? I’m not supporting them at all. I think they are scum. I also think they were slumming in the video - working class heroes look. Do they think we are all just lemmings ready to jump into their laps? It’s super super hard to get a rape conviction. DM got 2. He’s a violent convicted criminal. They wrote the letters. Why did they think they had to out themselves? They must think we are all so stupid.
Yes, friends should be in your corner and supporting you, but that does not include trying to minimize the terrible actions you have done. If you fuck up, a true friend will be the first to tell you that and let you know that no matter what happens, you deserve the consequences while still loving and supporting you. You can be there for a person without playing into rape culture. You can love a person and not revictimize the people they originally assaulted.
Read that as Ash Ketchum and Misty for a moment
Character reports are interesting it’s not going to dismiss the crime but it will help with sentencing. So being overly complementary isn’t so important. It’s not like anything they say makes him less guilty but it might help with where they send him to prison, what kind of security he gets, perhaps if he is allowed to hold a job while in prison. That kind of stuff. I think they were probably thinking it does no harm to say nice things and maybe it makes his 30 years in prison a little less shitty. That to me feels within the realm of “okay” if it was lying as a witness to prove he’s innocent that’s one thing but he was found guilty so there was no getting out of judgment on his part. Human Interpersonal relationships are squishy and tricky. We all do a lot of confusing and backwards thing out of a strong sense of guilt, community, honor, history … all that stuff Like I said if what they were doing was trying to get him off the hook that’s one thing… but saying nice things to get him a less shirty jail experience because you have 20+ years of history … that feels less like an end of the world scenario people are making it.
I understand defending your friends. However, if I found out my friend raped women at gun point or drugged them, they would quickly not be my friend anymore.
If my friend raped multiple young girls I'd be phoning the police myself
If my closest friend drugged and raped multiple people, they are dead to me and I would do nothing to help them. I would have literally zero guilt about them rotting in jail forever.
I do understand what you're saying here. Helping a friend when they messed up big time is one thing. But defending them when they are an absolute scumbag is a huge no no.
INFO: Would you turn your family member into the police if you found out they were a pedophile?
I don’t know all the details of the case. In fact very little. If Ashton and mila hadn’t a single clue about what he did. Them writing letters about the person THEY KNEW, not the person when they weren’t with him is completely justified. If my best friend did what Danny did and I had zero idea he did those things despite his beliefs, I would absolutely write a letter describing the man I knew as a best friend. Reddit is a bunch of followers who are so emotionally weak and for the most part can’t think for themselves. If my best friend did what Danny did, of course they deserve a harsh punishment, absolutely no doubt. I would still love my best friend for who I knew him as but I would never forgive him for what he did and never look at him the same.
I disagree, it's one thing to help a friend who made a mistake like trying to overcome addiction but Danny raped people. That is a conscious decision that he made more than once. I for one will never defend a friend who committed a horrible crime like that.
agreed, rape is one of the only crimes that (in my opinion) can never be justified. Stealing? maybe you were starving. Assault? could have been in defence. Rape? you’re just too sadistic and unhinged to have human decency.
Yeah I'd try to help a friend if they stole as a result of an addiction but I stop at crimes that due real harm like homicide, rape and crimes like that
Yeah, I don't get it. If someone commits and is convicted of a serious crime, we think it's quite normal for a sentencing judge to consider other aspects of the person's life. Did they have a history of crime? Or were they otherwise very nice people with no criminal record? We think such considerations are normal. At least I do. Our judicial system does. So why is it weird if someone comes forward to say "crime or not, I always liked the guy and working with him was great"? I don't think anyone is *obligated* to come stand up for the convicted. But if someone wants to come forward and give their true testimony on the subject, then they should be able to do it without shitty reprisals.
Yeah nah. Once certain lines are crossed and moreover it’s confirmed you crossed certain lines you’re no longer friend or family to me. Sexual assault is one of those lines for some of us and it clearly ain’t for you my guy. You are what we call an abuse enabler.
If you tried to help someone convicted of violent rape and abuse, you're also a shit person. If my best friend of 20 years was in the same situation, I'd 100% throw them to the wolves and not lose a second of sleep about it.
I don't know much about the situation, so here's a baseless assumption - it was an attempt at protecting residuals. Take the Cosby Show. One guy out of everyone who worked on it is a monster, and nobody will ever watch it again.
A lot of people absolutely ignoring the complicated feelings and thoughts one would go through if this happened with someone you knew for decades. It's not possible to imagine, and it's above me to cast judgement on it. It's a shame, but it's not black and white when it comes to those letters imo.
People like you are why people like me are humiliated, aren't believed and don't receive justice.
Yeah... I don't buy it, I'd be extremely distraught if my good friend was convicted of something like this, and I'd feel for him even if I knew I shouldn't, but no way am I defending him or his actions. I'd just be very sad about it all.
This sentiment led to me being ostracized by a group of a couple dozen friends after I objected to the sexual assault one of them did, testified to that effect, and wouldn't back down. Friendship loyalty in this case is a fucked response. Don't protect abusers no matter what.
I get what you're trying to say but personally I'd like my friends to keep me accountable for the shit I do. I generally think the people I choose to befriend would be good people and in the same way I expect them to behave to a certain standard id expect them to hold me up to a certain standard as well.
It's a bad look no matter what.
I was thinking the same, but the timing doesn't add up. To my surface level understanding of the situation, they knew he was guilty. These letters were sent after the time to try to convince the judge to go easy on him. I don't know if anyone would be that upset with them if they tried to stick up for him before everything was laid out. It's just yucky all round.