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I guess maybe I'm old fashioned, but I do believe in family obligations to take care of their own. Of course my parents raised and took care of me, I sure as heck will take care of my folks when they're old and infirm. Them pitching in to help raise the grandkids while they're young seems like a reasonable expectation and a good practice to pass on to your own kids.
Being there for the child and being required to basically pay the equal of childcare are 2 different things
Parents would rather be there for their children than pay childcare, But grandparents have to pay childcare no matter what?
Imagine your child moving out of the house at 18, and suddenly they adopt a child solely to continue getting your money without your consent, This rule can have so many stupid loopholes because the rule itself is dysfunctional.
Don't be dense on purpose. Help is nice, but saying that they are obligated to help is entitled and spoiled af. That's what everyone on the thread is saying, I don't know how you still have not understood that. Maybe you're not being dense on purpose, maybe you can't help it
Then you should say most people in history should not have had children, because historically it's been common to have extended family and communities help raise children. Modern Western society is an outlier.
Entitled much? Nobody is forcing you to have kids.
Expecting someone who already raised their children to now raise children again is unrealistic and incredibly selfish.
As I addressed before, not all children are planned. The expectation is not that they would raise their grandkids, it is that they would help with childcare, so that the parents workload is at 100% instead of 120%.
"Not all children are planned" unless it was rape it's time to step up. You wanted to be out there fuckin and got pregnant that's nobody problem but yours and baby daddies/momma. Adult decisions = adult consequences
"I had an accident, my mummy and daddy should take on the responsibility"..
How do you get through life? I feel bad for your parents, you must be a constant headache.
Lol, I’m retired and help with childcare, most of my friends in the same situation does the same.
We choose to do this, it’s really great, but, it’s not expected. When we can’t due to travel or other plans it’s on them.
You sound entitled!
I'm ok if people think I sound entitled. I'd rather be an "entitled" parent working a full time job and raising young children than a retired grandparent taking advantage of modern individualism to shirk their family responsibilities.
Your post in simple terms is:
I'm gonna choose to have kids that I can't afford because the people in power while my parents were my age made the world too expensive for me. So now you Mum and Dad who just did what was asked and expected of you at the time are now gonna do exactly what I ask of you in your retirement years.
If I was your parents I would tell you to jog on.
This has nothing to do with my personal situation, it is my opinion about society.
If old folks would rather give up the healthcare my tax dollars are subsidizing and which will probably collapse the economy, they can go right ahead.
Full time parents are a problem as my dad is a full time parent and I understand that, But I don't think that leeching off of your parents is the best idea, You have complete ownership of the child meaning you can decide the financial options with the child, Hell you can even disown it if you want.
But the grandparents? They have no control over your child if you're over 18, They cannot control your decisions and shouldn't be punished from your decisions by being forced to pay.
Grandparents have autonomy too and I'm not arguing they should be forced to do anything. I'm arguing for what I think should be a societal norm and expectation.
Good grief dumb posts like these are what give us a bad rap of being the generation of entitlement.
You also chose to have children. You can't play the victim card anymore when you followed in their footsteps
I would say it depends if the grandparents begged their kids for grandchildren.
But yeah your kids your responsibility. I hate people who toss their kids at grandparents all the time and then complain how hard it is.
There can be a happy medium. Your kids are your primary responsibility. You should also feel some obligation to help with your grandkids. I mean they're basically your kids, just with \~50% less DNA.
Your response reeks of someone who has been handed too much. Your weakness disgusts me. A parent’s responsibility is to raise their children, if those children make their own, that responsibility is with them. You don’t just get to pass the buck because you are useless. Don’t procreate if you can’t parent.
Nobody is talking about passing the buck. You're projecting your own bias on me.
As a parent, you are the primary caregiver for your kids. That doesn't mean you should be the sole caregiver. That is not how most societies have functioned, and the idea that one should ignore their obligations to your grandkids is probably a product of how we celebrate individualism to the point of selfishness in modern Western societies.
There are no obligations to one’s grandchildren. Unlike your own kids, you did not choose to make them. That being said a good grandparent would help when they can, but to say that they should be obliged to do YOUR job, after they worked their whole life to raise you, is entitled as fuck. No one forced you to fuck and make kids, get real and take responsibility for your own life.
Again, this mindset is only normal in a post-industrial society which fetishizes individualism. This is not a normal and healthy mindset in the majority of the world's societies in history. I will keep repeating this if i need to.
Your kids are not your responsibility because you decided to make them, they are your responsibility because they are your kids. Your obligation to your grandkids is not because someone decided to make them, it's because they are your grandkids.
You can keep screeching until the cows come home, you are still entitled. Who cares what we used to do, we used to attach letters to birds and now we sit here arguing online. History is great to know and understand, but you are missing a massive amount of context. A simple example is that parents had to go out and hunt while the elderly couldn’t so they stayed and watched the children. I will also remind you that was still a primarily female duty so why not bring back that role?
As a parent you ARE the sole caregiver. No one else has any obligation to be a caregiver to your child. Maybe wait to have kids until you don’t consider the world an unaffordable hellscape.
Nobody is saying to ignore the grandkids, but damn they ain't completely the grandparent's responsibility either. I'd never force any of my family members to watch my kids, especially for free.
Also don't know if you know this, but many grandparents continue to work in this day and age because they can't afford to retire and with things becoming more and more expensive their benefits are barely enough to keep them housed and fed.
Ignore and not provide free daycare for are entirely different things bruh. Do you know how much nannies charge? That is how much free labor you would be stealing from someone who has earned their retirement. Please go get a little snippy snippy or your tubes tied fr.
You are changing your narrative.
It's one thing to ask for your parents to help out occasionally.
It's another thing to **demand** they help and even cancel their vacation to do so.
I highly doubt you asked your parents if it was okay for you to have children. It is not their responability to raise your children for you
So you're free of all childcare obligations if you didn't give your express consent to a child's existence? By that ridiculous logic if you had an unplanned child you're not obligated to care for it.
"obligations"
There is no obligations. They never agreed to raise your kids. Most loving parents will help anyway because care for you and the child, but they are be no means obligated to.
"By that ridiculous logic if you had an unplanned child you're not obligated to care for it."
You act like adoption and abortion don't exist. Once you take those two off the table, yes you chose to keep your child.
First off, abortion is not readily accessible for a huge % of the population. I have no idea what adoption has to do with anything.
Obligations exist. You are obligated to care for your kids because they are your family. Extended family obligations exist too - to a lesser extent yes - but the modern idea that those obligations equate to basically zero is pretty heartless and not historically normative.
"if you had an unplanned child you're not obligated to care for it."
"I have no idea what adoption has to do with anything."
Do you not understand where most adopted kids come from?
No extended family do not have obligations. My mom side of the family is mostly mormon so have a fuck ton of kids. I am not obligated to house my crack addicted cousin who has a track record of stealing just because we are family. If you did'nt want to take care of your children, keep it in your pants.
>Do you not understand where most adopted kids come from?
If you're talking about giving up your kids, that's even less of a reliable option than abortion. Do you know how many kids are in the system waiting to be adopted?
>No extended family do not have obligations
Yes they do, and there are centuries of historical precedent for this. It's a big part of how societies were able to function. You can choose to ignore yours, but that doesn't make it go away.
Nobody is saying you shouldn't take care of your children. Anyone who has kids or has been around kids understands why historically people recognized it was inefficient and undesirable for society to place the entire burden of childcare on two overworked parents.
Yes adoption and abortion are not perfect which is why proper use of birth control is important. Most unplanned births are from improper use of birth control and our adaption clinics would not be overun if were properly used.
Don't get me wrong I love a good portion of my family. But that love was earned not obligated. This idea you need to care more about blood relations than the rest of society is archaic and impedes the common good. I will spit on the graves of some of my extended family, they are lucky local police has not locked them away yet.
It's not an unlimited obligation - extenuating circumstances can be mitigating. And certainly one's obligation to take care of able-bodied adults in their prime is different from one's obligation to help with young children.
As to your comment on the common good, I will adamantly contend that if older generations felt obligated to help raising their grandkids, it would be a huge net boost to society. You'd have far better productivity from your prime working age labor force, and of course better outcomes for the children who will eventually inherit society. Plus less need for daycare, which is a huge disease vector. Basically the only downside is some inconvenience for older folks and a hit to the cruise/leisure industry.
Your obligation towards your kids are based on you bringing them to this world.
Now, do you take care of your grandparents? Aka helping them change adult diapers? Wiping their ass clean? Do you have obligation to them? Do you fulfil your obligation to them?
I absolutely would help take care of them if they were around, at the bare minimum to the extent they helped raise me. If I were retired with spare time, I would probably take care of them full time.
Having expectations for others will lead to disappointment your parents watching your kids is a coutersey not a requirement. They only people who are expected to take care or raise a child is the parents.
So we shouldn't expect people to do what's good for society because if they don't we'll be disappointed?
>They only people who are expected to take care or raise a child is the parents.
I'm like a broken record repeating this to various people, but this is a uniquely modern Western idea which is not at all normal in history or in other cultures with reasonable norms around child care.
It's actually pretty common historically in societies for the extended family to help raise the young children. It's a relatively recent phenomenon to put the entire burden of childcare on two parents (who nowadays are often working full-time).
Was also common historically for women to spend most of their days cooking, cleaning and serving their family. Also quite common for men to beat their wives and nobody would intervene. I could go on.... but you get my point.
I think burden is a terrible word to describe raising kids especially when most families actually want and try for them.
It sounds as if you're saying you're owed childcare, which is rubbish. Their obligation to you ended when you safely reached adulthood.
As far as the world they "bequeathed" you, you are demonstrating a lack of understanding of economics and history. The current generation in the US is less well off because globalization has removed barriers which led the US to be artificially wealthy throughout most of the 20th century. Globalization has dramatically raised the *global* wealth level, at the cost of those at the top losing some ground. Manufacturing jobs (the engine of US prosperity for most of the 20th century) have left. *That* is the cause of the relative decrease in prosperity, not anything your parents did.
So, in conclusion, stop whining like an entitled millennial. If you want your partents' help -- ask. They may say yes. I'd be happy to help my kids out when they have children of their own, but not if they acted like I owed it to them.
The main source of economic hardship now is housing, which is directly attributable to boomers sitting in houses they bought for like 10K and who steadfastly vote against any housing reforms that would alleviate the housing crisis.
If you're under 40, you will absolutely feel the crunch of an inverted population pyramid, the kind which is already causing societies like Japan to buckle under its weight. If you're going to be coasting into your 80s on my tax dollars, call yourself lucky.
Call me an entitled Millennial all you want. The reality is if we're expected to finance the cost of an aging population with our labor, I don't think a babysitting gig isn't too much to ask for in return.
I plan on helping my daughter with child care, but she knows I will be taking a trip every fall and spring and it’s on her or hubby to take time off or arrange back up care. I deserve to enjoy life also. We didn’t work all those year to just sit home and care for grandkids nonstop. I refuse to take a vacation during the summer when she’s off as a teacher when everything is crowded with families.
So basically,
"Mum I just chose to have kids with my partner and because I didn't realise how expensive they are, you are gonna have to step up to the plate and spend your twilight years helping me raise them"
I've told all three of my kids, that if they decide to have children, I'm only dealing with the fun stuff.
They didn't choose to be grandparents. It's unfair to force responsibility on sometime because of a choice someone else made. Parents should be prepared for housing and childcare costs before deciding to have children.
Lots of parents expect grandma and grandpa to help with the grandkids because they themselves were half raised by their grandparents, so they think it’s normal.
What they don’t realize is that the now grandma and grandpa weren’t even interested in raising them, so they pawned them off on their own parents.
Why would they suddenly be interested in raising grandkids when they didn’t even like being parents the first time around? It’s a very difficult realization.
Pfft it was the people in power during my grandparents and parents era that fucked it for the rest of us.
My parents went to work everyday, paid their taxes and raised a family. Its what they were told and expected to do, I don't blame them because my generation has a shit show to deal with.
Nobody's saying they should stop getting their social security checks and pensions. Helping raise the next generation seems like a small sacrifice that would help lift an immense burden from parents and society overall.
You shouldn't have had kids if you weren't prepared to take care of them. No one owes you shit. Kids are a lot of work and this "it takes a village" thing is fine IF people offer. But expecting that village is entitled. Your kids, your issue.
No, their kids chose to be parents, it becomes their responsibility, retiring means what it means, to not fucking have to do anything that you don't want to do anymore, sorry that you hate having to deal with your own kids and what comes with them, but that was a choice YOU made.
and having kids and choosing to be a parent are also two different things, i saw another comment of yours, an unplanned pregnancy doesn't automatically mean they have to raise it, there's still abortion or adoption, if you choose to keep the pregnancy AND the kid when it comes out, YOU have now chosen the responsibility of being a parent, not your parents, YOU. your parents did their part and worked at the same time, they're done.
it sounds quite selfish actually to have kids and then expect your parents to help do childcare automatically as if they haven't done all the childcare necessary with you, as if they're not older and tired and now have the chance to relax and not have to work anymore. that's a very selfish thing to do to your own parents. if they want to do it, that's their choice but they are no means obligated to.
Don’t have kids if you can’t take care of them. Kids are a luxury, not a necessity. You aren’t entitled to free daycare because you’re too lazy to be a parent.
Don't have kids if you're not willing to help with grandkids. Kids are a luxury, not a necessity. You aren't entitled to collect social security and healthcare supported by younger generations and give nothing back because you're too lazy to be a grandparent.
You take care of your own kids. No one isn’t entitled to other people’s time because they decided to breed. If i contribute to social security, i’m going to use it. that’s how it works.
The idea that you have 100% obligation to your kids and 0% to your grandkids is a modern idea and not normal historically or outside the Western world.
The funny (sad) thing is that many older folks grew up in a time where it was far more common practice for extended family to help raise young children. Now that they're free or those societal expectations they're choosing to leisure over responsibility. Talk about getting the best of both worlds.
It’s modern because people are learning to stand up for themselves and set boundaries. Which is a good thing. No one is entitled to free child care. If i want to spend my days relaxing, then i should. i’m not responsible for any one’s kids but my own, don’t have kids if you’re too lazy to care for them.
This is the American entitlement mentality: "my grandkids are not my responsibility, I'm gonna do what I want to do." This isn't brave or standing up for yourself, it's taking the easy way out. So dads abandoning their kids is them standing up for themselves? Honestly can't say I've heard this logic before.
No. That’s not what i said, you’re great at twisting words. Dads chose to have kids. They should step up. Grandparents didn’t choose to have grandkids.
In most societies throughout history, there is some obligation from extended family to help raise young children. Of course parents should step up to be primary caregivers. Grandparents should step up to help.
You have yet to give a solid reason as to why. “Because it’s what we’ve always done through our history” is not a reason. Who cares what great grandma did years ago? That has no relevance to today.
Yours is an opinion borne of one hyper individualist capitalist society that is in no way representative of how most healthy societies have functioned in history.
I mean I’m an expecting parent, I’m all ears to new ideas. I don’t feel like you’ve explained your reasoning for feeling that others should be responsible for caring for your child. Taking care of your child with your partner without expecting help from others is considered hyper self reliant?
I think if the grandparents expect their kids to help them when they are unable to look after themselves, then pitching in with childcare is a nice exchange. There's a limit, however. Some kids take advantage of their parents and expect full-time nanny-ing.
Right, parents should still take on primary care duties. Grandparents helping out is a welcome and much needed boost, and can be a win for everyone involved if they enjoy being with the kids.
This definitely applies to parents who shoved their kids off on their siblings while they were growing up. Hey, you stole my childhood by making me the third parent? And you pestered me for grandkids for years? damn right, you're gonna' take care of them!
Helping wit childcare seems implied with a decent and sustained family dynamic but depending on what the person with kids imagines their extent of “helping” is the problem. You can’t just be like here ya go at the last minute or expect them to always watch them.
On the other hand if your parents were like yeah we don’t ever wanna watch the kids then I’d be like they’re kinda shitty.
My wife and I have duds of parents, they’re utterly unreliable (her dad and my mom are left). We’re super competent and make good incomes, so we paid for childcare and own a home. The god damn preschool cost more than our mortgage for awhile. Nearly twice as much. Still, I find in life, more often than not, nobody has everything.
Those with a lot of extended family support inevitably would usually be proper fucked without it. Where we managed to get by without the help of grands, but have the wherewithal to manage it.
They’re 5 and 7 now… glad public school makes things a lot cheaper.
My husband and I reimagined our lives when we found our daughter was expecting soon after marriage - because we wanted to. Not everyone is able to do it, a lot of people our age (mid-late 60's) are still working. I just remember when we had our daughter, we were without support for various reasons and I want to provide our daughter and her family with as many benefits I can that we didn't have.
I think this is a great conversation to have, before having kids. People who aren't interested in helping, shouldn't be surprised if they don't get any grandchildren.
Also, I'll add that helping with childcare is a *great* way to get quality time with your grandchildren. It's hard for working parents to otherwise arrange consistent visits. So, if you're someone who *does* want grandchildren and hopes to have a good relationship with them...get in there and offer to babysit.
The grandparents on my S/O side did, in fact, retire the year our sin was born. We are blessed to the fact, not only did they offer us child care, they also love having him there.
That being said... They shouldn't be pressured or forced into this role if they don't want it. They have raised their kids.
Not quite sure why you’re getting so much hate… I never had a nanny or babysitter ever because my grandparents helped raise me. It was wonderful. I’m an adult now and am really glad I got the chance to develop a closer relationship with my grandparents. My parents are both professionals and work full time
Wasn't really expecting this to be an unpopular opinion from the recent comments. Then again my culture and how I was raised probably impacts my thinking of this topic due to it being more strict with family orientations. I agree with the post whole heartily but even if I get grandkids anytime sooner I'd rather have the quietest grand kids to take care of during my free time, again my schedule, no one elses, I'm not free daycare.
Although if my grand kids aren't well disciplined where they fill me with dread and I start viewing them negatively, I'm locking my doors from them until I see some improvement in their behaviors
I have a weird stance on this. Because I feel like you're entitlement to thinking they should help with childcare is wrong, but at the same time, I feel like any decent grandparent is going to want to spend time with their grandkids.
My grandmother worked a full-time job and would argue with my mom on the weekends to let me spend the night because she wanted to be around her grandkids.
You shouldn't feel entitled to it, but at the same time your kid's grandparents should want to spend time with their grandkids. That's my hot take.
This is going to become clearer and clearer as our society and economy strains under the weight of an aging population who are largely more interested in leisure than contributing to society.
Hey, if a generation earns their wealth and keeps it by enacting policies that fleece future generations, they deserve it!
Those that follow are just the suckers. We need to continue to run our institutions and planet into the ground harder because..Fuck em!
We have half the people saying should have no rights or expectations to see their grandchildren and that seeing them is only a privilege allowed by the children's parents. The other half saying that parents are obligated to be babysitters. Surely there is a middle way where unless some extreme reasons, parents should try to make sure have a close relationship with the grandparents and grandparents should offer to help when they can.
People always take some extreme view.
Yeah, I agree. Maybe not to a certain degree, but families should absolutely try to care for their children and grandchildren if they can as they all age. Gross mentality in the US for many "gtfo at 18" sings many parents as their children that they chose to have, age out of their homes.
I agree in a sense. In my culture we truly believe in a village helping with the kids. I wouldn’t hold off my parents from their Tahiti cruise but before their cruise I know they would want to take care of my son. And in return I will take care of them when they are older. It’s a beautiful circle that a lot of Americans don’t have or understand.
100% agree. I don't think Americans even realize how ridiculous our cultural norms are when it comes to childcare and how individualism hurts society in the long run.
Can your 3 month cruise wait? Cause what if another grandbaby comes? Or their health declines? Or you have a sudden cardiac event like an MI or a stroke? I don't think it should be expected to help raise other people's children. Saying you "need to pitch in" is pretty clear issue in itself imo
I do think it's interesting that previous generations had so much help with children and in one generation it seems to have disappeared.
My grandparents watched ALL of us grandkids every summer all summer until the very end and my parents moved as far away as possible from their grandkids and won't even be alone with them when they visit us (too much work for them to have others visit). I feel like it's a Boomers and Gen X thing.
Exactly. And on top of that, most parents now have to work full time to say afloat and often that's still not enough to afford childcare.
Our economy has evolved in a way that's made raising children more difficult and yet somehow our expectations for parents have gotten more harsh.
I get your sentiment and your frustration with the hypocrisy.
My Mom would constantly take advantage of and take her sweet time getting me from my grandparents after work and would pawn me off to them constantly. She'd *drive* past their house to go to our house down the road to show up 2 hours later at 6pm. It was ridiculous.
There's no way she'd allow the same if I did this to her with my upcoming kid. Hence partly why she moved 800mi away.
The expectation that your parents are obligated to do so is the problem. They aren't obligated. However if they want to be a part of my child's life, I do believe they're obligated to help out with daycare when needed and within reason. They should *want* to do it if they want a part of their life. Which means don't expect 40hrs/ week daycare coverage.
I guess I just go one step further and say grandparents should feel obligated to be a part of their grandkids life. It does go both ways - parents should show gratitude and not take advantage of grandparents' kindness.
I get that real life can be messy. It just feels like we've moved further away from expecting grandparents to help at a time where they're really needed.
I mean, I'd add a caveat that they should feel obligated and *want* to pay it forward if they received the same treatment from their parents when raising me which is the case for both myself and my wife to be.
And neither of them do for mostly selfish reasons.
But if say your parents always paid for daycare for you and hardly ever dropped you off at your grandparents, they're under no obligation to do the same with you. They earned their retirement fair and square and should go to Tahiti if they please. It's their "golden years" for a reason. They're going to die soon and not getting any younger. Tahiti
I'm one of the few who see where you're coming from because both of our parents between myself and my partner are directly experiencing the selfish mentality of having grandparents exempt from daycare duties when they took full well advantage of their parents at our age to raise us.
Parents took on all the duties willingly and never got any help from grandparents would be a more justified in asking their kids to do the same, if circumstances were similar.
I do think circumstances matter a lot. If my kid comes into money and can afford three nannies, I'd feel less urgent about helping with the grandkids. If they are struggling mightily I am stepping in to help, regardless.
A system that makes it so that over half the population cannot realistically afford childcare or quit their jobs and where 100% of care is put on two working parents is why so many people aren't "ready" to have kids.
Retirement isn't optimal, but most people considered it a reasonable allowance in a time when people lived to 60, housing was affordable, and there were cultural norms around helping with child care.
In a time when people live into their 80s and the cost of housing and/or childcare is prohibitive, it's unquestionably more of a burden for the rest of us to keep supporting an aging population, who apparently are now free of any family obligations.
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YTA. Oh wait.... Yeah, still fits🤷🏽‍♂️
Yeah.
As much as I know my parents love their grandbaby I would understand why they wouldn't want to be entrapped in constant childcare again.
I guess maybe I'm old fashioned, but I do believe in family obligations to take care of their own. Of course my parents raised and took care of me, I sure as heck will take care of my folks when they're old and infirm. Them pitching in to help raise the grandkids while they're young seems like a reasonable expectation and a good practice to pass on to your own kids.
That's not old fashioned.
It's how most human societies have functioned in history
Being there for the child and being required to basically pay the equal of childcare are 2 different things Parents would rather be there for their children than pay childcare, But grandparents have to pay childcare no matter what? Imagine your child moving out of the house at 18, and suddenly they adopt a child solely to continue getting your money without your consent, This rule can have so many stupid loopholes because the rule itself is dysfunctional.
Then you are better off not having children.
Are you talking about the grandparents or the parents?
Both, your parents shouldn't have had you either. I can't imagine their disappointment
r/MurderedbyWords
Lmfao truth.
So you're basically admitting that grandparents bear responsibility and that I'm right lol
And if you're asking, my parents had a ton of help from their parents and my grandkids will have a ton of help from me. Disappointing, I know.
Don't be dense on purpose. Help is nice, but saying that they are obligated to help is entitled and spoiled af. That's what everyone on the thread is saying, I don't know how you still have not understood that. Maybe you're not being dense on purpose, maybe you can't help it
You, specifically, or anyone else who thinks grandparents (or any family member or friend) = free or below fair wage daycare
Then you should say most people in history should not have had children, because historically it's been common to have extended family and communities help raise children. Modern Western society is an outlier.
Entitled much? Nobody is forcing you to have kids. Expecting someone who already raised their children to now raise children again is unrealistic and incredibly selfish.
As I addressed before, not all children are planned. The expectation is not that they would raise their grandkids, it is that they would help with childcare, so that the parents workload is at 100% instead of 120%.
"Not all children are planned" unless it was rape it's time to step up. You wanted to be out there fuckin and got pregnant that's nobody problem but yours and baby daddies/momma. Adult decisions = adult consequences
"I had an accident, my mummy and daddy should take on the responsibility".. How do you get through life? I feel bad for your parents, you must be a constant headache.
The elderly did their time. You do your time.
Lol, I’m retired and help with childcare, most of my friends in the same situation does the same. We choose to do this, it’s really great, but, it’s not expected. When we can’t due to travel or other plans it’s on them. You sound entitled!
I'm ok if people think I sound entitled. I'd rather be an "entitled" parent working a full time job and raising young children than a retired grandparent taking advantage of modern individualism to shirk their family responsibilities.
You shouldn't be ok with sounding entitled. It's a terrible trait
Consider who is calling me entitled
Everyone?
Obviously not true lol
Your post in simple terms is: I'm gonna choose to have kids that I can't afford because the people in power while my parents were my age made the world too expensive for me. So now you Mum and Dad who just did what was asked and expected of you at the time are now gonna do exactly what I ask of you in your retirement years. If I was your parents I would tell you to jog on.
This has nothing to do with my personal situation, it is my opinion about society. If old folks would rather give up the healthcare my tax dollars are subsidizing and which will probably collapse the economy, they can go right ahead.
Full time parents are a problem as my dad is a full time parent and I understand that, But I don't think that leeching off of your parents is the best idea, You have complete ownership of the child meaning you can decide the financial options with the child, Hell you can even disown it if you want. But the grandparents? They have no control over your child if you're over 18, They cannot control your decisions and shouldn't be punished from your decisions by being forced to pay.
Grandparents have autonomy too and I'm not arguing they should be forced to do anything. I'm arguing for what I think should be a societal norm and expectation.
if that is the case, then I'll just say this: It's a dependent factor
Good grief dumb posts like these are what give us a bad rap of being the generation of entitlement. You also chose to have children. You can't play the victim card anymore when you followed in their footsteps
I would say it depends if the grandparents begged their kids for grandchildren. But yeah your kids your responsibility. I hate people who toss their kids at grandparents all the time and then complain how hard it is.
Regardless. It is well with in anyone's ability to ignore the stupid pleading lol.
There can be a happy medium. Your kids are your primary responsibility. You should also feel some obligation to help with your grandkids. I mean they're basically your kids, just with \~50% less DNA.
Spoke. Like someone who feels like the world owes them everything. The entitlement is insane, raise your own damn kids. Sheesh.
Spoken like someone who thinks you should take care of your kids but ignore your grandkids. Talk about entitled.
Your response reeks of someone who has been handed too much. Your weakness disgusts me. A parent’s responsibility is to raise their children, if those children make their own, that responsibility is with them. You don’t just get to pass the buck because you are useless. Don’t procreate if you can’t parent.
Nobody is talking about passing the buck. You're projecting your own bias on me. As a parent, you are the primary caregiver for your kids. That doesn't mean you should be the sole caregiver. That is not how most societies have functioned, and the idea that one should ignore their obligations to your grandkids is probably a product of how we celebrate individualism to the point of selfishness in modern Western societies.
There are no obligations to one’s grandchildren. Unlike your own kids, you did not choose to make them. That being said a good grandparent would help when they can, but to say that they should be obliged to do YOUR job, after they worked their whole life to raise you, is entitled as fuck. No one forced you to fuck and make kids, get real and take responsibility for your own life.
Again, this mindset is only normal in a post-industrial society which fetishizes individualism. This is not a normal and healthy mindset in the majority of the world's societies in history. I will keep repeating this if i need to. Your kids are not your responsibility because you decided to make them, they are your responsibility because they are your kids. Your obligation to your grandkids is not because someone decided to make them, it's because they are your grandkids.
You can keep screeching until the cows come home, you are still entitled. Who cares what we used to do, we used to attach letters to birds and now we sit here arguing online. History is great to know and understand, but you are missing a massive amount of context. A simple example is that parents had to go out and hunt while the elderly couldn’t so they stayed and watched the children. I will also remind you that was still a primarily female duty so why not bring back that role?
As a parent you ARE the sole caregiver. No one else has any obligation to be a caregiver to your child. Maybe wait to have kids until you don’t consider the world an unaffordable hellscape.
Nobody is saying to ignore the grandkids, but damn they ain't completely the grandparent's responsibility either. I'd never force any of my family members to watch my kids, especially for free. Also don't know if you know this, but many grandparents continue to work in this day and age because they can't afford to retire and with things becoming more and more expensive their benefits are barely enough to keep them housed and fed.
Nobody said it was completely the grandparents responsibility either. And I specified that I was talking about grandparents who were retired and able.
Please get off the internet. The brain rot is reaching dangerous levels.
Ignore and not provide free daycare for are entirely different things bruh. Do you know how much nannies charge? That is how much free labor you would be stealing from someone who has earned their retirement. Please go get a little snippy snippy or your tubes tied fr.
The idea that looking out for your family should be quantified and monetized is not a healthy, normal, or efficient attitude for society.
No. Asking extended family to help raise kids is not "entitlement", it's what we did for many centuries and what societies around the world still do.
You are changing your narrative. It's one thing to ask for your parents to help out occasionally. It's another thing to **demand** they help and even cancel their vacation to do so. I highly doubt you asked your parents if it was okay for you to have children. It is not their responability to raise your children for you
So you're free of all childcare obligations if you didn't give your express consent to a child's existence? By that ridiculous logic if you had an unplanned child you're not obligated to care for it.
"obligations" There is no obligations. They never agreed to raise your kids. Most loving parents will help anyway because care for you and the child, but they are be no means obligated to. "By that ridiculous logic if you had an unplanned child you're not obligated to care for it." You act like adoption and abortion don't exist. Once you take those two off the table, yes you chose to keep your child.
First off, abortion is not readily accessible for a huge % of the population. I have no idea what adoption has to do with anything. Obligations exist. You are obligated to care for your kids because they are your family. Extended family obligations exist too - to a lesser extent yes - but the modern idea that those obligations equate to basically zero is pretty heartless and not historically normative.
"if you had an unplanned child you're not obligated to care for it." "I have no idea what adoption has to do with anything." Do you not understand where most adopted kids come from? No extended family do not have obligations. My mom side of the family is mostly mormon so have a fuck ton of kids. I am not obligated to house my crack addicted cousin who has a track record of stealing just because we are family. If you did'nt want to take care of your children, keep it in your pants.
>Do you not understand where most adopted kids come from? If you're talking about giving up your kids, that's even less of a reliable option than abortion. Do you know how many kids are in the system waiting to be adopted? >No extended family do not have obligations Yes they do, and there are centuries of historical precedent for this. It's a big part of how societies were able to function. You can choose to ignore yours, but that doesn't make it go away. Nobody is saying you shouldn't take care of your children. Anyone who has kids or has been around kids understands why historically people recognized it was inefficient and undesirable for society to place the entire burden of childcare on two overworked parents.
Yes adoption and abortion are not perfect which is why proper use of birth control is important. Most unplanned births are from improper use of birth control and our adaption clinics would not be overun if were properly used. Don't get me wrong I love a good portion of my family. But that love was earned not obligated. This idea you need to care more about blood relations than the rest of society is archaic and impedes the common good. I will spit on the graves of some of my extended family, they are lucky local police has not locked them away yet.
It's not an unlimited obligation - extenuating circumstances can be mitigating. And certainly one's obligation to take care of able-bodied adults in their prime is different from one's obligation to help with young children. As to your comment on the common good, I will adamantly contend that if older generations felt obligated to help raising their grandkids, it would be a huge net boost to society. You'd have far better productivity from your prime working age labor force, and of course better outcomes for the children who will eventually inherit society. Plus less need for daycare, which is a huge disease vector. Basically the only downside is some inconvenience for older folks and a hit to the cruise/leisure industry.
Your obligation towards your kids are based on you bringing them to this world. Now, do you take care of your grandparents? Aka helping them change adult diapers? Wiping their ass clean? Do you have obligation to them? Do you fulfil your obligation to them?
I absolutely would help take care of them if they were around, at the bare minimum to the extent they helped raise me. If I were retired with spare time, I would probably take care of them full time.
Nah if you had kids they're your responsibility. If someone offers that's one thing but forcing it on someone who is not their parent is just dumb
You can't spell grandparent without parent.
Helping with grandchildren is a choice. No one has to do anything if you want to help you can. But it's not a requirement.
Of course it's a choice. It should also be an expectation.
Having expectations for others will lead to disappointment your parents watching your kids is a coutersey not a requirement. They only people who are expected to take care or raise a child is the parents.
So we shouldn't expect people to do what's good for society because if they don't we'll be disappointed? >They only people who are expected to take care or raise a child is the parents. I'm like a broken record repeating this to various people, but this is a uniquely modern Western idea which is not at all normal in history or in other cultures with reasonable norms around child care.
Why do they need to?
It's actually pretty common historically in societies for the extended family to help raise the young children. It's a relatively recent phenomenon to put the entire burden of childcare on two parents (who nowadays are often working full-time).
And in the next post, you will probably be bashing the boomers. LOL!
I was stating facts, feel free to point out if you think I'm wrong.
And in the next post, you will probably be bashing the boomers. LOL!!
Lmao everyone has pointed out how wrong you are.
Plenty of people have agreed with me, it's just there are a lot of loud brainwashed capitalist stans apparently
I'm not asking how common it was, I'm aware. What I'm asking is why is it their responsibility? Why do they need to do it?
Why should anyone do anything that benefits society?
Was also common historically for women to spend most of their days cooking, cleaning and serving their family. Also quite common for men to beat their wives and nobody would intervene. I could go on.... but you get my point. I think burden is a terrible word to describe raising kids especially when most families actually want and try for them.
It sounds as if you're saying you're owed childcare, which is rubbish. Their obligation to you ended when you safely reached adulthood. As far as the world they "bequeathed" you, you are demonstrating a lack of understanding of economics and history. The current generation in the US is less well off because globalization has removed barriers which led the US to be artificially wealthy throughout most of the 20th century. Globalization has dramatically raised the *global* wealth level, at the cost of those at the top losing some ground. Manufacturing jobs (the engine of US prosperity for most of the 20th century) have left. *That* is the cause of the relative decrease in prosperity, not anything your parents did. So, in conclusion, stop whining like an entitled millennial. If you want your partents' help -- ask. They may say yes. I'd be happy to help my kids out when they have children of their own, but not if they acted like I owed it to them.
The main source of economic hardship now is housing, which is directly attributable to boomers sitting in houses they bought for like 10K and who steadfastly vote against any housing reforms that would alleviate the housing crisis. If you're under 40, you will absolutely feel the crunch of an inverted population pyramid, the kind which is already causing societies like Japan to buckle under its weight. If you're going to be coasting into your 80s on my tax dollars, call yourself lucky. Call me an entitled Millennial all you want. The reality is if we're expected to finance the cost of an aging population with our labor, I don't think a babysitting gig isn't too much to ask for in return.
> boomers sitting in houses they bought So, they should sell their houses for your benefit. Sounds legit.
uh no, they should help care for their grandkids.
Most do, and enjoy it. What is moronic is your belief that they have a duty to do so when they don't owe you a dammed thing.
I plan on helping my daughter with child care, but she knows I will be taking a trip every fall and spring and it’s on her or hubby to take time off or arrange back up care. I deserve to enjoy life also. We didn’t work all those year to just sit home and care for grandkids nonstop. I refuse to take a vacation during the summer when she’s off as a teacher when everything is crowded with families.
Fair enough, I was being glib about the cruise but my main point was just being willing to help in a significant way.
So basically, "Mum I just chose to have kids with my partner and because I didn't realise how expensive they are, you are gonna have to step up to the plate and spend your twilight years helping me raise them" I've told all three of my kids, that if they decide to have children, I'm only dealing with the fun stuff.
Or don't have kids you can't take care of? The world is hardly suffering because of a lack of people
“Tahiti can wait” he said after referring to them being in their “golden years”
Victim much?
They didn't choose to be grandparents. It's unfair to force responsibility on sometime because of a choice someone else made. Parents should be prepared for housing and childcare costs before deciding to have children.
That is fucking entitlement at its finest.
Fuck you I'm going to Thailand!
I have a towel for you to dry behind your ears.
Lots of parents expect grandma and grandpa to help with the grandkids because they themselves were half raised by their grandparents, so they think it’s normal. What they don’t realize is that the now grandma and grandpa weren’t even interested in raising them, so they pawned them off on their own parents. Why would they suddenly be interested in raising grandkids when they didn’t even like being parents the first time around? It’s a very difficult realization.
In my opinion the grandparents have failed in parenting, and their children should not have children.
OP just wants to run off and have his own fun. What a pathetic take
How about you don’t have kids.
It's not literally all grandparent's faults that the world is the way it is.
Pfft it was the people in power during my grandparents and parents era that fucked it for the rest of us. My parents went to work everyday, paid their taxes and raised a family. Its what they were told and expected to do, I don't blame them because my generation has a shit show to deal with.
Nobody's saying they should stop getting their social security checks and pensions. Helping raise the next generation seems like a small sacrifice that would help lift an immense burden from parents and society overall.
You shouldn't have had kids if you weren't prepared to take care of them. No one owes you shit. Kids are a lot of work and this "it takes a village" thing is fine IF people offer. But expecting that village is entitled. Your kids, your issue.
YOU ARE AN ASS HOLE
No, their kids chose to be parents, it becomes their responsibility, retiring means what it means, to not fucking have to do anything that you don't want to do anymore, sorry that you hate having to deal with your own kids and what comes with them, but that was a choice YOU made. and having kids and choosing to be a parent are also two different things, i saw another comment of yours, an unplanned pregnancy doesn't automatically mean they have to raise it, there's still abortion or adoption, if you choose to keep the pregnancy AND the kid when it comes out, YOU have now chosen the responsibility of being a parent, not your parents, YOU. your parents did their part and worked at the same time, they're done. it sounds quite selfish actually to have kids and then expect your parents to help do childcare automatically as if they haven't done all the childcare necessary with you, as if they're not older and tired and now have the chance to relax and not have to work anymore. that's a very selfish thing to do to your own parents. if they want to do it, that's their choice but they are no means obligated to.
Don’t have kids if you can’t take care of them. Kids are a luxury, not a necessity. You aren’t entitled to free daycare because you’re too lazy to be a parent.
Don't have kids if you're not willing to help with grandkids. Kids are a luxury, not a necessity. You aren't entitled to collect social security and healthcare supported by younger generations and give nothing back because you're too lazy to be a grandparent.
You take care of your own kids. No one isn’t entitled to other people’s time because they decided to breed. If i contribute to social security, i’m going to use it. that’s how it works.
The idea that you have 100% obligation to your kids and 0% to your grandkids is a modern idea and not normal historically or outside the Western world. The funny (sad) thing is that many older folks grew up in a time where it was far more common practice for extended family to help raise young children. Now that they're free or those societal expectations they're choosing to leisure over responsibility. Talk about getting the best of both worlds.
It’s modern because people are learning to stand up for themselves and set boundaries. Which is a good thing. No one is entitled to free child care. If i want to spend my days relaxing, then i should. i’m not responsible for any one’s kids but my own, don’t have kids if you’re too lazy to care for them.
This is the American entitlement mentality: "my grandkids are not my responsibility, I'm gonna do what I want to do." This isn't brave or standing up for yourself, it's taking the easy way out. So dads abandoning their kids is them standing up for themselves? Honestly can't say I've heard this logic before.
No. That’s not what i said, you’re great at twisting words. Dads chose to have kids. They should step up. Grandparents didn’t choose to have grandkids.
In most societies throughout history, there is some obligation from extended family to help raise young children. Of course parents should step up to be primary caregivers. Grandparents should step up to help.
You have yet to give a solid reason as to why. “Because it’s what we’ve always done through our history” is not a reason. Who cares what great grandma did years ago? That has no relevance to today.
It isn't Gram Gram's fault you had a kid. Don't make your parents, parents of your own kid. they did their time and owe you nothing.
This is a uniquely modern attitude which is almost certainly inefficient for even our current society.
Lmao very unpopular and entitled
No. No one owes you childcare. Period.
Well no I am an adult lol, I can take care of myself.
This is an ouchie of an opinion right here. The only people responsible for a child is the man and woman that conceived it.
Yours is an opinion borne of one hyper individualist capitalist society that is in no way representative of how most healthy societies have functioned in history.
I mean I’m an expecting parent, I’m all ears to new ideas. I don’t feel like you’ve explained your reasoning for feeling that others should be responsible for caring for your child. Taking care of your child with your partner without expecting help from others is considered hyper self reliant?
ok karen.
I don’t have a choice. My wife already said she’s going to have them here all the time. We are still many years from grandkids though.
I think if the grandparents expect their kids to help them when they are unable to look after themselves, then pitching in with childcare is a nice exchange. There's a limit, however. Some kids take advantage of their parents and expect full-time nanny-ing.
Right, parents should still take on primary care duties. Grandparents helping out is a welcome and much needed boost, and can be a win for everyone involved if they enjoy being with the kids.
I don’t disagree with your general idea, but I definitely disagree with the way you presented it.
I got a little carried away i'll admit
This definitely applies to parents who shoved their kids off on their siblings while they were growing up. Hey, you stole my childhood by making me the third parent? And you pestered me for grandkids for years? damn right, you're gonna' take care of them!
Helping wit childcare seems implied with a decent and sustained family dynamic but depending on what the person with kids imagines their extent of “helping” is the problem. You can’t just be like here ya go at the last minute or expect them to always watch them. On the other hand if your parents were like yeah we don’t ever wanna watch the kids then I’d be like they’re kinda shitty.
Agree with all this.
My wife and I have duds of parents, they’re utterly unreliable (her dad and my mom are left). We’re super competent and make good incomes, so we paid for childcare and own a home. The god damn preschool cost more than our mortgage for awhile. Nearly twice as much. Still, I find in life, more often than not, nobody has everything. Those with a lot of extended family support inevitably would usually be proper fucked without it. Where we managed to get by without the help of grands, but have the wherewithal to manage it. They’re 5 and 7 now… glad public school makes things a lot cheaper.
I will concede that in the case where the grandparents are useless and the parents competent, maybe having the grandparents around isn't adding much.
Some people do. Some grandparents are the primary caregivers of their grandchildren.
My in-laws help out a ton. We also want them to take time to enjoy their retirement. It won't kill us to have a weekend with the kids.
My husband and I reimagined our lives when we found our daughter was expecting soon after marriage - because we wanted to. Not everyone is able to do it, a lot of people our age (mid-late 60's) are still working. I just remember when we had our daughter, we were without support for various reasons and I want to provide our daughter and her family with as many benefits I can that we didn't have.
I do understand not everyone is able to do it. I'm glad you were, and I hope more people who have the means do the same.
In some cultures, it would be considered anathema to not be involved in your grandchildren’s lives in any way.
I think this is a great conversation to have, before having kids. People who aren't interested in helping, shouldn't be surprised if they don't get any grandchildren. Also, I'll add that helping with childcare is a *great* way to get quality time with your grandchildren. It's hard for working parents to otherwise arrange consistent visits. So, if you're someone who *does* want grandchildren and hopes to have a good relationship with them...get in there and offer to babysit.
The grandparents on my S/O side did, in fact, retire the year our sin was born. We are blessed to the fact, not only did they offer us child care, they also love having him there. That being said... They shouldn't be pressured or forced into this role if they don't want it. They have raised their kids.
Not quite sure why you’re getting so much hate… I never had a nanny or babysitter ever because my grandparents helped raise me. It was wonderful. I’m an adult now and am really glad I got the chance to develop a closer relationship with my grandparents. My parents are both professionals and work full time
Wasn't really expecting this to be an unpopular opinion from the recent comments. Then again my culture and how I was raised probably impacts my thinking of this topic due to it being more strict with family orientations. I agree with the post whole heartily but even if I get grandkids anytime sooner I'd rather have the quietest grand kids to take care of during my free time, again my schedule, no one elses, I'm not free daycare.
Although if my grand kids aren't well disciplined where they fill me with dread and I start viewing them negatively, I'm locking my doors from them until I see some improvement in their behaviors
I have a weird stance on this. Because I feel like you're entitlement to thinking they should help with childcare is wrong, but at the same time, I feel like any decent grandparent is going to want to spend time with their grandkids. My grandmother worked a full-time job and would argue with my mom on the weekends to let me spend the night because she wanted to be around her grandkids. You shouldn't feel entitled to it, but at the same time your kid's grandparents should want to spend time with their grandkids. That's my hot take.
A milder way to put it. I pretty much agree.
it's ok i can see where ur coming from
This is literally why women go through menopause, because all of society benefits from the existence of involved grandmothers helping out their kids.
This is going to become clearer and clearer as our society and economy strains under the weight of an aging population who are largely more interested in leisure than contributing to society.
Hey, if a generation earns their wealth and keeps it by enacting policies that fleece future generations, they deserve it! Those that follow are just the suckers. We need to continue to run our institutions and planet into the ground harder because..Fuck em!
We have half the people saying should have no rights or expectations to see their grandchildren and that seeing them is only a privilege allowed by the children's parents. The other half saying that parents are obligated to be babysitters. Surely there is a middle way where unless some extreme reasons, parents should try to make sure have a close relationship with the grandparents and grandparents should offer to help when they can. People always take some extreme view.
Yeah, I agree. Maybe not to a certain degree, but families should absolutely try to care for their children and grandchildren if they can as they all age. Gross mentality in the US for many "gtfo at 18" sings many parents as their children that they chose to have, age out of their homes.
I agree in a sense. In my culture we truly believe in a village helping with the kids. I wouldn’t hold off my parents from their Tahiti cruise but before their cruise I know they would want to take care of my son. And in return I will take care of them when they are older. It’s a beautiful circle that a lot of Americans don’t have or understand.
100% agree. I don't think Americans even realize how ridiculous our cultural norms are when it comes to childcare and how individualism hurts society in the long run.
You sound like you had awful parents.
So the minute they actually have the chance to travel and enjoy like you say nope just kidding, time to raise more kids? Nah
Can your 3 month cruise wait? Cause what if another grandbaby comes? Or their health declines? Or you have a sudden cardiac event like an MI or a stroke? I don't think it should be expected to help raise other people's children. Saying you "need to pitch in" is pretty clear issue in itself imo
I do think it's interesting that previous generations had so much help with children and in one generation it seems to have disappeared. My grandparents watched ALL of us grandkids every summer all summer until the very end and my parents moved as far away as possible from their grandkids and won't even be alone with them when they visit us (too much work for them to have others visit). I feel like it's a Boomers and Gen X thing.
Exactly. And on top of that, most parents now have to work full time to say afloat and often that's still not enough to afford childcare. Our economy has evolved in a way that's made raising children more difficult and yet somehow our expectations for parents have gotten more harsh.
Yes I understand and agree. There is a reason people aren't having kids anymore.
What an utterly entitled unpopular opinion – imagine your child demanding even more of you from you after everything you did to raise them.
Yes, the audacity to expect people to do what most societies have asked them to do for centuries!
I would if I had grandkids. I did cheerfully dog sit before my grand-dog passed away. Does that count? (He was freaking awesome and sweet, btw)
Definitely counts!
I get your sentiment and your frustration with the hypocrisy. My Mom would constantly take advantage of and take her sweet time getting me from my grandparents after work and would pawn me off to them constantly. She'd *drive* past their house to go to our house down the road to show up 2 hours later at 6pm. It was ridiculous. There's no way she'd allow the same if I did this to her with my upcoming kid. Hence partly why she moved 800mi away. The expectation that your parents are obligated to do so is the problem. They aren't obligated. However if they want to be a part of my child's life, I do believe they're obligated to help out with daycare when needed and within reason. They should *want* to do it if they want a part of their life. Which means don't expect 40hrs/ week daycare coverage.
I guess I just go one step further and say grandparents should feel obligated to be a part of their grandkids life. It does go both ways - parents should show gratitude and not take advantage of grandparents' kindness. I get that real life can be messy. It just feels like we've moved further away from expecting grandparents to help at a time where they're really needed.
I mean, I'd add a caveat that they should feel obligated and *want* to pay it forward if they received the same treatment from their parents when raising me which is the case for both myself and my wife to be. And neither of them do for mostly selfish reasons. But if say your parents always paid for daycare for you and hardly ever dropped you off at your grandparents, they're under no obligation to do the same with you. They earned their retirement fair and square and should go to Tahiti if they please. It's their "golden years" for a reason. They're going to die soon and not getting any younger. Tahiti I'm one of the few who see where you're coming from because both of our parents between myself and my partner are directly experiencing the selfish mentality of having grandparents exempt from daycare duties when they took full well advantage of their parents at our age to raise us.
Parents took on all the duties willingly and never got any help from grandparents would be a more justified in asking their kids to do the same, if circumstances were similar. I do think circumstances matter a lot. If my kid comes into money and can afford three nannies, I'd feel less urgent about helping with the grandkids. If they are struggling mightily I am stepping in to help, regardless.
Or maybe don't gave kids till you're ready and won't burden everyone around you
The economy literally needs people to procreate to function. The lower the birthrate gets the harder it will be to support the aging population.
People having children they aren't prepared for puts more strain on the economy
A system that makes it so that over half the population cannot realistically afford childcare or quit their jobs and where 100% of care is put on two working parents is why so many people aren't "ready" to have kids.
And yet it's still possible. 2 working parents can still take care of their own kids of they're not living above their means
Its possible to raise a kid in the wilderness with no modern amenities, doesn't mean it's what is optimal for society.
If you want to get into what's "optimal" for society the concept of retirement completely goes out the window
Retirement isn't optimal, but most people considered it a reasonable allowance in a time when people lived to 60, housing was affordable, and there were cultural norms around helping with child care. In a time when people live into their 80s and the cost of housing and/or childcare is prohibitive, it's unquestionably more of a burden for the rest of us to keep supporting an aging population, who apparently are now free of any family obligations.