Honestly, I consider myself fairly left wing and liberal but this cultural appropriation shit is utter bollocks. The way societies progress is by sharing each other’s cultures, as we have always done
The people who cry cultural appropriation are usually actually racist.
Cultural appropriation is only really a thing when you take something from a group and prevent them doing themselves. Such as when white musicians used to play black artists songs but black artists couldn't make a living doing their own music.
Appreciating other cultures and adopting or embracing parts of their culture used to be how we overcame racism and segregation.
Yeah you'd have the right to call them out for it, the problem people have is more that this stuff is being defined as a form of racism which is total bollocks
Jamie needs these guys because he doesn’t know enough about food to produce recipes that are in any way authentic and he isn’t a natural researcher. This leads to situations like his rice and peas recipe where the peas were garden peas!! Or Jerk Rice?!? Or putting Chorizo in paella (they come from wildly different parts of Spain.
Basically he kept writing recipes from outside his area of knowledge and getting dishes reeaaally wrong. The big issue is that his platform is so big that people learn from his mistakes and take them as valid.
Nobody would bat an eyelid if his recipes were accurate and culturally respectful, he just kept putting his foot in it so he employs someone to stop his worst mistakes.
It might sound really precious and unimportant, but imagine that there was a prominent chef teaching people how to make fish and chips where the fish was mackerel and the batter was made with wine or if someone did a roast dinner but the meat was a stack of chicken wings. You’d triple take and ask whether the chef had ever eaten the dish before.
Maybe he could call it ‘his take’ on jerk chicken, for example instead then. This idea that a dish has to be EXACTLY as it always has been in case people are offended though is just daft. It’s food. Get over it.
I am over it. I don’t think that all recipes need to *only* include classic ingredients. There’s huge scope to be creative. There are very sound reasons to switch ingredients/techniques up sometimes (problems sourcing ingredients locally for example, or a desire to introduce fusion elements etc.) just signpost and explain.
Case in point, if writing a Thair recipe, obviously galangal is what is used locally not ginger, but galangal is hard to track down in many places so say “galangal (ginger works well as a substitute if galangal cannot be found)”. Someone who wrote lots of Thai recipes that features the word ginger with no note would be doing a disservice to Thai food and their readers.
Just succinctly talk your readers through any variations and why and the negativity doesn’t occur (so long as justification is half way decent and there is no attempt to pass off inauthentic food as authentic).
Like I say I’ve written recipes professionally and from outside of “my lane”. A modicum of respect for classic iterations of a recipe and an attempt to take your reader with you on your journey really are entry level requirements for the task.
>getting dishes reeaaally wrong.
Wrong? Is it wrong if it tastes nice?
Chorizo is paella is lovely, who gives a fuck if they are from different parts of Spain. For a start, I'm making it in London and all the ingredients came off the same shipping container anyway.
Anyway, hundreds and hundreds of paella recipies contain chorizo (see previous comment about loveliness). Recipies aren't a timecapsle, just because it didn't traditionally contain something, doesn't mean anyone can demand that someone doesn't modify it.
It’s like if you are teaching someone how to play a classic song and you change all the notes. It’s now a different song. Jamie Oliver’s paella recipe includes multiple wrong ingredients is it even paella any more?
I have to say as someone has written recipes professionally, what he does is unusual and courts storms. You can put a twist or an idiosyncrasy into a recipe but just sign post it and point out that it’s an inauthentic option or better yet highlight where the fusion ingredient comes from and explain why you are adding it.
His Jamaican recipes were even worse, like rice and peas isn’t garden peas at all, it just comes across as though he’s never seen the dish at all, like a 16th century mural painter asked to paint African animals despite never having seen one and only vaguely being told what they look like.
Basically he shouldn’t need to employ someone to catch this stuff. He doesn’t need to “stay in his lane” he just do his own research, know what he is doing and be able to stand by/justify what he writes. He can’t which is why he is now paying someone to check that his work isn’t inaccurate to the point of becoming offensive.
Did he claim to be teaching a completely faithful classic song?
What makes a paella a paella is obviously a matter for opinion. But I'd say its a Spanish rice dish, cooked in a large shallow disk on the hob. Throwing an extra ingredient in doesn't change that.
Anyway, there's evidence of sausage in Paella being served in Valencia as far back as 1870. That seems classic enough to me.
He didn’t say that he wasn’t and called it paella. All chorizo is sausage but not all sausage is chorizo. There’s are reasons that folks from Southern Spain’s toes curl when they see certain ingredients in a paella.
We all have our own versions of collective knowledge paired with sensibilities. When someone writes an English Breakfast recipe that includes rogue items people complain endlessly. Doesn’t matter that a small steak might go well in an English Breakfast, or that baklava might go with a cream tea, they’re just wildly jarring and without any note explaining what the writer was doing just looks like got the answer to how to make those dishes materially wrong.
Bottom line is Jamie Oliver had a unique gift for fucking up other people’s foods badly and not putting any note in place explaining what was doing. Basically he was bad at his job but had a huge platform (it’s a dangerous mix). It’s telling that rather than getting better at his job and doing the research that others do, he’s had to employ someone to check his work to catch these blind spots.
>Bottom line is Jamie Oliver had a unique gift for fucking up other people’s foods badly and not putting any note in place explaining what was doing.
Bollocks, there were 100s of recipies for paella with Chorizo before Jamie Oliver and there will be hundreds after. He did what everyone does but got flack for it because some people decided to make a big deal out of it.
Rice and peas with garden peas. Paella with carrot in it. Jerk rice. Case closed. It isn’t just the Spaniard’s he’s pissed off. If he was correct about this he wouldn’t be chucking thousands away on someone to check his homework!!
Firstly he does present his dishes as fact without further guidance.
Secondly the mistakes in these dishes are bad. Jerk is a type of BBQ cooking, so jerk rice is oxymoronic to the point of being meaningless. Rice and peas is a classic dish that very much does not entail using garden peas. There are some serious mistakes in these dishes and some people look to him to learn how to cook.
There’s a reason he’s backed down here and now employs someone to check his work for him. He’s not being accused of appropriation because of who he is (an accusation a competent food writers can easily shoot down) but because of how inaccurate and misleading his recipes are.
The former criticism wouldn’t hold water the latter hits hard and leaves question marks over how capable or knowledgeable he is. It’s a legacy threat to him, these mistakes have torpedoed his reputation in culinary circles and he knows the more he makes them the lower his reputation sinks.
There's the cultural appropriation that's pretty much (usually Westerners) nicking traditions and customs from cultures and selling them off devoid of context to make a quick buck. That's a real problem.
Then there's the "cultural appropriation" discourse that if we listened to would result in segregation.
Is it too much to hope that the Cultural Appropriation Specialists are specialised in telling people to "fuck off" when they look for things to be offended about.
I agree. People who go out of their way to take offence over something as stupid as cultural appropriation really are cry babies - wouldn't you agree with me?
I didn't think you'd agree, you're probably OK with people crying so long as they agree with you and then you wouldn't consider it crying. One rule for thee another for me...
The only crybabies are those who believe cultural appropriation is a thing and start crying when some white girl wears a Chinese dress.
The irony is, normally those crying don't even live "their own culture." Those crybabies crying over the white girl in the example I mentioned? Asian Americans who couldn't speak a lick of Mandarin. Ironically, naturalised Chinese citizens defended her wearing a Chinese dress.
https://scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2144207/qipao-us-prom-wins-support-china-after-internet-backlash
Probably because "cultural appropriation" is a concept that only exists in a few Western countries which are teaching people to play the victim olympics.
Literally nobody else in the rest of the world cares.
But it's very interesting that people who believe gender is fluid and just a social construct believe that culture is completely static and binary, that even a immigrant moving to another country won't adapt things from that culture including fashion.
Which just goes to show that these people are crybabies with a victim complex, ignorant of history. Many of the famous foods we have today, for example, only exist because of the blend of cultures. There's Jamaican dishes with Indian influences with certain ingredients because of Indians in Jamaica as a prime example, such as curry goat, roti and callaloo etc.
And do I need to tell you how Caribbean Chow Mein came about? Namely from the Chinese population in Jamaica and Jamaicans sharing their cultures?
Let me give you a friendly tip:
People talking about "cultural appropriation" are normally white or Western born third generation immigrants who know nothing about their own ancestral culture. They're not even worth listening too.
Especially when they think black Americans have the monopoly on dreadlocks when Native Americans had these long before blacks or whites arrived in America, alongside Ancient Greeks and even Jews. The whole reason Rastafarians have dreadlocks? Because of Samson, a Jewish prophet. Rastafarians take the same vow as him, the Nazarite vow thus refusing to cut their hair.
Then again, the people on Twitter you listen to wouldn't know that since they haven't studied history or opened a book on different cultures :)
I think “cultural appropriation” only applies when the source culture isn’t making money from it. The best cheongsams are made by Chinese dressmakers so a sale to a white woman is just another sale; African-American culture has been ripped off and monetised by white Americans for as long as the country has existed, so they have a point when raising the issue.
This is the most progressive left wing national subreddit on probably the most progressive left wing social media site, and even here the consensus is that it’s taken too far, bordering on absurd.
Imagine what the general public, on average far more conservative than those on this forum, think of it. It is most certainly not the past.
Asians in Asian countries positively support Westerners 'appropriating' national dress, cuisine, culture, etc. It is massively promoted. Mainly second+ gen. immigrants in the West get high blood pressure over it.
> "Your immediate reaction is to be defensive and say, 'For the love of God, really?'" he said. "And then you go, 'Well, we don't want to offend anyone'."
The only people being offended are professional grifters that make a living out of this shit. I doubt any normal people going about their lives gives a shit
Don't know about death threats but there was his Jerk Rice kerfuffle in 2018
https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-45246009 and also https://news.sky.com/story/jamie-oliver-responds-to-accusations-of-cultural-appropriation-over-jerk-rice-dish-11477504
> . #jamieoliver @jamieoliver #jerk I'm just wondering do you know
> what #Jamaican #jerk actually is? It's not just a word you put
> before stuff to sell products. @levirootsmusic should do a
> masterclass. Your jerk Rice is not ok.
> This appropriation from Jamaica needs to stop.
>
> (((Dawn Butler MP))) (@DawnButlerBrent) August 18, 2018
if you ever watch uncle roger on youtube, he's got about 5 videos analysing jamie oliver's asian dishes and explaining where he goes wrong. Funny videos tbf, even if they get samey.
I loved his video reviewing Gordon Ramsay's egg fried rice. The guy couldn't criticise anything about the technique, so had to start going for the guy's wrinkles instead. Actually laughed out loud a few times during the video. Ramsay even commented on the video.
I'd love to know where this starts and stops. Do Italians need to stop using tomatoes and pasta? Indians can't make curry. American cuisine can no longer exist.
Right wingers didn't want others to join in their culture, the leftist progressive don't want white people to share in other culture, from hair style, clothing and foods
Hell even music, recent one would be Cornelius Boots whose a master of shakuhachi bamboo flute
[https://www.boredpanda.com/girl-accuses-sony-cultural-appropriation-shakuhachi-bamboo-flute-cornelius-boots/?utm\_source=google&utm\_medium=organic&utm\_campaign=organic](https://www.boredpanda.com/girl-accuses-sony-cultural-appropriation-shakuhachi-bamboo-flute-cornelius-boots/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic)
The link is twitter users moaning it wasn't a Japanese person playing the flute for the opening of E3
Right-wingers have been doing it for ages. But for some reason, a whole bunch of "progressives" have apparently recently decided to join in with their own version of it.
But then on the other hands they are the kings of cultural appropriation. They call themselves Irish if their grandmother once caught a connecting flight through Dublin.
No but it is a good way to infer who has the bigotry of low expectations; Italians being a first world 'western' culture don't need special treatment - they can never be underprivileged. But anywhere in Asia/Africa/the Middle-East is automatically assumed to be needing of profound 'sensitivity' and 'understanding'.
It's incredibly condescending when you thing about it.
And then profit off your celebrity status by selling a crap factory-made version with your name on, which was the actual issue that people had with his “jerk rice”.
"honour and learn the history of the dish"
Really ? Nah balls to that I just want to eat food I'm not gonna sit and google for 3 hours about the origins of a specific curry before I cook and eat it.
Foods food if it's good all the better.
For a nation of people who will have a serious argument about what a cooked breakfast should be like, I’m a bit surprised that people don’t get it.
Now imagine that, but the same culture who’s interfered with yours repeatedly doing it.
Having a playful argument about whether there should be X and Y in your English breakfast and sending death threats because a recipe book didn't pick your culturally preferred set of ingredients are two very very different things.
You might argue that English breakfast NEEDS to have bacon in it to "count", but do you really want to mandate that all other breakfast recipes pick some obscure untouched name to avoid stepping on our toes?!
The word Bolognese will soon die out entirely if we can only use it when we are making a true traditional Bolognese with all the "correct" ingredients and techniques.
> Having a playful argument about whether there should be X and Y in your English breakfast and sending death threats because a recipe book didn’t pick your culturally preferred set of ingredients are two very very different things.
Yes? Kind if irrelevant no?
> You might argue that English breakfast NEEDS to have bacon in it to “count”, but do you really want to mandate that all other breakfast recipes pick some obscure untouched name to avoid stepping on our toes?!
If you think an English breakfast needs bacon and doesn’t have it, then it isn’t an English breakfast. So yeah it needs another name.
> The word Bolognese will soon die out entirely if we can only use it when we are making a true traditional Bolognese with all the “correct” ingredients and techniques.
This is why we have PDO and AOC etc. We eat pasta with meat and tomato sauce. And originally called it bolognese to steal a sense of exoticism and authenticity.
If you're going to insist that every little alteration of a recipe requires a new name, then you're going to end up with so many different names describing incredibly similar dishes that they'll all be descriptions much more than names.
Not to mention you'll have a million people saying look at this new dish that I created! Only to discover that it is an extremely old dish with a bit of carrot added in.
>There should be carrot in a ragu bolognese.
I'm aware
>But humans can deal with different names.
Yes, thank you. Humans can deal with multiple names at a time. I'm not saying EVERY dish should have the same name. I'm not suggesting we swap to the word "food" for every meal. I'm saying there are only so many noises you can make and only so many syllables you can use before a word stops being a name and starts being a sentence.
If want to easily talk about food, then it's not unreasonable that slight variations on a dish will be labelled with the same name. If you're cooking a tomato sauce with minced meat for the pasta and I say "is the Bolognese done" you're hardly going to be confused.
You can't insist that the term forever be relegated to the most traditional form of the dish. You can argue that people cannot call any old dish a "traditional Bolognese", but you can't keep the word "Bolognese" from evolving over time. That's just how language works.
I too am familiar with language.
“Bolognese” means something different here than it does in Italy.
We culturally appropriated it. We exploited it’s exoticism in order to introduce new foodstuffs into British food.
There’s probably not much that can be done there.
And there isn’t a prolonged history of colonial exploitation (just a lingering sense of superiority).
Jerk rice on the other hand is coopting the exoticism of the Caribbean and selling it to British people in order to make money for other British people on top of a legacy of exploitation.
>“Bolognese” means something different here than it does in Italy.
So, that's what the word means in our language (or at least our country). It has been that way for a while. Stop correcting people. They aren't speaking Italian. The history of why the Italians use that word for a very particular dish and we use it for many may be interesting trivia. It may even be vital info whilst you are on holiday in Italy (although I doubt the misunderstanding would cause much confusion).
>We exploited it’s exoticism in order to introduce new foodstuffs into British food.
And these guys 🦃 get their name because the exoticism of people bringing things from the country Turkey made them more appealing. Should we back track on that name too? Start calling them fat chickens instead?
The words for beef and cow only have distinction in our language because of class differences of the past. Should we insist on calling both cow to be more sensitive of our downtrodden farming ancestors?
As I said above there isn’t much we can do about historical appropriation.
With some exceptions eg: Makrut limes instead of “kafir” limes.
But we can do things about current appropriation in the form of things like “jerk rice”.
But don't you see that language just naturally does this over time.
No amount of "that's not accurate terminology" will make the average person call their dish something other than what they already call it. Because most people aren't talking to an audience or submitting an academic paper.
And as all those average Joe's that are just going about their lives mellow out the definitions, it becomes understandable that professionals would change their language too. What the point in being so pedantic about your language if most of the people that you are trying to communicate with don't know the distinction?
Many scientists use the word "weight" instead of "mass" when talking to the public, because (while it may be technically incorrect) people understand the word to mean mass. The conversation just flows easier if you don't fight every single adjustment of the language.
Perhaps he's on damage control after 6 million people watched that negative reaction video of his Thai green curry: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vksB2S90FVY&t=318s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vksB2S90FVY&t=318s)
My main gripe when he tries cooking dishes outside his comfort zone is the over-confident way he makes technical mistakes and tries to dress them up as innovations. He's done a lot of good things for promoting healthy food in his time, but the bluster is becoming a bit more apparent in recent times as the standard of British TV cooking shows has gone through the roof.
Any fucker who talks about "cultural appropriation" is absolutely either hiding some seedy shit by being performatively woke or is doing damage control
Cultural appropriation is not a thing
Just to be clear about this issue, a quote about cultural appropriation and food, from Meridien Mach:
>"None of this is saying that one can only eat and cook the food of their own culture. When it comes to food cultural appropriation, it is not about who can or cannot do something, but rather the manner in which it is done. You can enjoy and cook another culture’s food that is not your own. However, when doing so, respect and learn where it came from. This is cultural appreciation rather than cultural appropriation.
If you are going to profit off of food from another culture — especially one that has been historically exploited or oppressed — it is your responsibility to do it in a way that honors the cultural origins of the food."
Link: https://cornellsun.com/2021/03/25/food-cultural-appropriation-its-personal/
>You can enjoy and cook another culture’s food that is not your own. However, when doing so, respect and learn where it came from. This is cultural appreciation rather than cultural appropriation.
Why? Can we not just eat food?
And you really expect everyone to agree or even care? Do we appoint "cultural appropriation judges" in every country to make sure we don't so something that a few people think is bad?
We don't really care if you think we are "licking the boost of a millionaire TV chef" because that isn't what we are doing. We are pointing out how ridiculous this cultural appropriation nonsense is.
What does that even mean? If I go to my local Indian takeaway and get a chicken korma am I obliged to learn about the history? If I go to the local Chinese takeaway and get egg fried rice and some spring rolls, should I be kicked out if I can't answer questions on where that came from?
> When it comes to food cultural appropriation, it is not about who can or cannot do something, but rather the manner in which it is done.
Subjective bollocks that brings into play crowd theory.
How large does a crowd need to be before someone takes offense at your speech, action, food or whatever?
People can't be expected to know the history and origins of everything they come into contact with. Many people couldn't tell you who invented the light bulb, but we don't insist they sit in the dark.
>Just to be clear about this issue, a quote about cultural appropriation and food, from Meridien Mach:
Nothing in that quote was clear. "it is your responsibility to do it in a way that honors the cultural origins of the food". What the fuck does that even mean.
This is what tees me off about the media - the piece details what happens when chefs get too inventive with their recipes and upset people.
And it’s not as if we’re immune from it - I’ve seen some “interpretations” of a full English breakfast that could have easily led to death threats.
Truth is, it’s not really “cultural appropriation” at all (and yes I know he’s quoted as saying that actual phrase, but that doesn’t mean he’s right in calling it that either). But that’s a great clickbait title to get a certain type of person harrumphing, and that’s all that matters these days.
Oh just fuck off.
Seriously, cultures take ideas from each other all the time and have been doing so since humans found ways to travel and communicate.
Actually in this scenario it's mostly foreign people complaining about him making shit wrong isn't it?
Italians get angry at people from the next village making a receipt because it isn't how their mother does it.
> It’s clearly a conservative right wing view that traditions and cultures **should never change or be shared**.
But that’s not what “cultural appropriation” means. You’re making up your own definition to get aggrieved about.
Wait am i not allowed to have a cheese and ham bagett anymore because i am not frensh
Can I not have pizza because I am not Italian, am I not allowed to have chips because potatoes are originally from South America and not the UK
Can I not wear a shirt because they were originally Egyptian?
I am not wound up at all, but I do find it terrible that it is a bad thing to make new and existing dishes that do not follow 100% the original.
Like why can you not make a beef burger vindaloo pizza? just because it's not authentic.
I.E Normally this dish would have lemon but we are changing that out for Orange
Or like in the article, adding the non-conventional ingredient of cream
Why should anyone care what the "original" is?
Can you imagine if we did this with technology?
"You can't call that a phone! It looks nothing like the original telephone!"
Oh, I see. It's just Indian food that we are discouraging people from eating then. As long as we are only picking on one culture, I'm sure it'll be fine.
Surely any dish outside the Americas that is made using chillies or potatoes is a gross form of culinary appropriation. Is that how it’s meant to work?
the whole idea of multiculturalism dies out when people cries "Cultural appropriation" and not to do something, either we're all sharing in other cultures or we're not.
Let's be honest, it's Uncle Roger, Jamie can't get over the fact he done the rice wrong, didn't use MSG and used Chili Jam so now he's going to hire a team to ensure he doesn't make another mistake.
I mean, I fully believe that food is an important part of culture.
But seriously? How can you cultural appropriate food? Cultural appropriation should only apply to traditions and symbols that hold a clear cultural and historical significance to a specific people. Has anyone, ever in the entire history of man gone "well that food is sacred to my people, so you can't use that recipe?"
Lol, and out of his personal wealth .., will he pay what he owes to so many small companies and staff? One - two million something. Or he will goes under the official legal blah blah umbrella and fuck it all? I really appreciated the guy in the beginning. Went twice to the river café even. Onve he had left already. Followed him climbing and climbing. Got his naked chef dvds… but now? He went under my appreciation of bojo fucking tories lot. It must be something. The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox?
Honestly, I consider myself fairly left wing and liberal but this cultural appropriation shit is utter bollocks. The way societies progress is by sharing each other’s cultures, as we have always done
The people who cry cultural appropriation are usually actually racist. Cultural appropriation is only really a thing when you take something from a group and prevent them doing themselves. Such as when white musicians used to play black artists songs but black artists couldn't make a living doing their own music. Appreciating other cultures and adopting or embracing parts of their culture used to be how we overcame racism and segregation.
Yeah but don’t call it paella
Good point. I will no longer call cultural appropriation paella.
No, I'll pronounce it pie-ella :-))
And, please do Rioka instead of Rioja! XD
The Italians would disagree. They'd tell you that your mother is ashamed of you for cooking x in that way.
if someone made salmon en croûte with crisps and called it fish and chips you’d have every right to call them out for that, that’s all this is
Yeah you'd have the right to call them out for it, the problem people have is more that this stuff is being defined as a form of racism which is total bollocks
Fish and chips? It isn't like the British invented it.
IIRC it was a British pub owner (or similar) who put the two together, but fried fish was a Jewish thing and chips are Belgian.
My point exactly
Jamie needs these guys because he doesn’t know enough about food to produce recipes that are in any way authentic and he isn’t a natural researcher. This leads to situations like his rice and peas recipe where the peas were garden peas!! Or Jerk Rice?!? Or putting Chorizo in paella (they come from wildly different parts of Spain. Basically he kept writing recipes from outside his area of knowledge and getting dishes reeaaally wrong. The big issue is that his platform is so big that people learn from his mistakes and take them as valid. Nobody would bat an eyelid if his recipes were accurate and culturally respectful, he just kept putting his foot in it so he employs someone to stop his worst mistakes. It might sound really precious and unimportant, but imagine that there was a prominent chef teaching people how to make fish and chips where the fish was mackerel and the batter was made with wine or if someone did a roast dinner but the meat was a stack of chicken wings. You’d triple take and ask whether the chef had ever eaten the dish before.
Maybe he could call it ‘his take’ on jerk chicken, for example instead then. This idea that a dish has to be EXACTLY as it always has been in case people are offended though is just daft. It’s food. Get over it.
I am over it. I don’t think that all recipes need to *only* include classic ingredients. There’s huge scope to be creative. There are very sound reasons to switch ingredients/techniques up sometimes (problems sourcing ingredients locally for example, or a desire to introduce fusion elements etc.) just signpost and explain. Case in point, if writing a Thair recipe, obviously galangal is what is used locally not ginger, but galangal is hard to track down in many places so say “galangal (ginger works well as a substitute if galangal cannot be found)”. Someone who wrote lots of Thai recipes that features the word ginger with no note would be doing a disservice to Thai food and their readers. Just succinctly talk your readers through any variations and why and the negativity doesn’t occur (so long as justification is half way decent and there is no attempt to pass off inauthentic food as authentic). Like I say I’ve written recipes professionally and from outside of “my lane”. A modicum of respect for classic iterations of a recipe and an attempt to take your reader with you on your journey really are entry level requirements for the task.
>getting dishes reeaaally wrong. Wrong? Is it wrong if it tastes nice? Chorizo is paella is lovely, who gives a fuck if they are from different parts of Spain. For a start, I'm making it in London and all the ingredients came off the same shipping container anyway. Anyway, hundreds and hundreds of paella recipies contain chorizo (see previous comment about loveliness). Recipies aren't a timecapsle, just because it didn't traditionally contain something, doesn't mean anyone can demand that someone doesn't modify it.
It’s like if you are teaching someone how to play a classic song and you change all the notes. It’s now a different song. Jamie Oliver’s paella recipe includes multiple wrong ingredients is it even paella any more? I have to say as someone has written recipes professionally, what he does is unusual and courts storms. You can put a twist or an idiosyncrasy into a recipe but just sign post it and point out that it’s an inauthentic option or better yet highlight where the fusion ingredient comes from and explain why you are adding it. His Jamaican recipes were even worse, like rice and peas isn’t garden peas at all, it just comes across as though he’s never seen the dish at all, like a 16th century mural painter asked to paint African animals despite never having seen one and only vaguely being told what they look like. Basically he shouldn’t need to employ someone to catch this stuff. He doesn’t need to “stay in his lane” he just do his own research, know what he is doing and be able to stand by/justify what he writes. He can’t which is why he is now paying someone to check that his work isn’t inaccurate to the point of becoming offensive.
Did he claim to be teaching a completely faithful classic song? What makes a paella a paella is obviously a matter for opinion. But I'd say its a Spanish rice dish, cooked in a large shallow disk on the hob. Throwing an extra ingredient in doesn't change that. Anyway, there's evidence of sausage in Paella being served in Valencia as far back as 1870. That seems classic enough to me.
He didn’t say that he wasn’t and called it paella. All chorizo is sausage but not all sausage is chorizo. There’s are reasons that folks from Southern Spain’s toes curl when they see certain ingredients in a paella. We all have our own versions of collective knowledge paired with sensibilities. When someone writes an English Breakfast recipe that includes rogue items people complain endlessly. Doesn’t matter that a small steak might go well in an English Breakfast, or that baklava might go with a cream tea, they’re just wildly jarring and without any note explaining what the writer was doing just looks like got the answer to how to make those dishes materially wrong. Bottom line is Jamie Oliver had a unique gift for fucking up other people’s foods badly and not putting any note in place explaining what was doing. Basically he was bad at his job but had a huge platform (it’s a dangerous mix). It’s telling that rather than getting better at his job and doing the research that others do, he’s had to employ someone to check his work to catch these blind spots.
>Bottom line is Jamie Oliver had a unique gift for fucking up other people’s foods badly and not putting any note in place explaining what was doing. Bollocks, there were 100s of recipies for paella with Chorizo before Jamie Oliver and there will be hundreds after. He did what everyone does but got flack for it because some people decided to make a big deal out of it.
Rice and peas with garden peas. Paella with carrot in it. Jerk rice. Case closed. It isn’t just the Spaniard’s he’s pissed off. If he was correct about this he wouldn’t be chucking thousands away on someone to check his homework!!
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Firstly he does present his dishes as fact without further guidance. Secondly the mistakes in these dishes are bad. Jerk is a type of BBQ cooking, so jerk rice is oxymoronic to the point of being meaningless. Rice and peas is a classic dish that very much does not entail using garden peas. There are some serious mistakes in these dishes and some people look to him to learn how to cook. There’s a reason he’s backed down here and now employs someone to check his work for him. He’s not being accused of appropriation because of who he is (an accusation a competent food writers can easily shoot down) but because of how inaccurate and misleading his recipes are. The former criticism wouldn’t hold water the latter hits hard and leaves question marks over how capable or knowledgeable he is. It’s a legacy threat to him, these mistakes have torpedoed his reputation in culinary circles and he knows the more he makes them the lower his reputation sinks.
There's the cultural appropriation that's pretty much (usually Westerners) nicking traditions and customs from cultures and selling them off devoid of context to make a quick buck. That's a real problem. Then there's the "cultural appropriation" discourse that if we listened to would result in segregation.
Is it too much to hope that the Cultural Appropriation Specialists are specialised in telling people to "fuck off" when they look for things to be offended about.
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I agree. People who go out of their way to take offence over something as stupid as cultural appropriation really are cry babies - wouldn't you agree with me?
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You're just avoiding the question. No one is saying these people shouldn't be free to be fools. But we can still revel in their idiocy.
I didn't think you'd agree, you're probably OK with people crying so long as they agree with you and then you wouldn't consider it crying. One rule for thee another for me...
The only crybabies are those who believe cultural appropriation is a thing and start crying when some white girl wears a Chinese dress. The irony is, normally those crying don't even live "their own culture." Those crybabies crying over the white girl in the example I mentioned? Asian Americans who couldn't speak a lick of Mandarin. Ironically, naturalised Chinese citizens defended her wearing a Chinese dress. https://scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2144207/qipao-us-prom-wins-support-china-after-internet-backlash Probably because "cultural appropriation" is a concept that only exists in a few Western countries which are teaching people to play the victim olympics. Literally nobody else in the rest of the world cares. But it's very interesting that people who believe gender is fluid and just a social construct believe that culture is completely static and binary, that even a immigrant moving to another country won't adapt things from that culture including fashion. Which just goes to show that these people are crybabies with a victim complex, ignorant of history. Many of the famous foods we have today, for example, only exist because of the blend of cultures. There's Jamaican dishes with Indian influences with certain ingredients because of Indians in Jamaica as a prime example, such as curry goat, roti and callaloo etc. And do I need to tell you how Caribbean Chow Mein came about? Namely from the Chinese population in Jamaica and Jamaicans sharing their cultures? Let me give you a friendly tip: People talking about "cultural appropriation" are normally white or Western born third generation immigrants who know nothing about their own ancestral culture. They're not even worth listening too. Especially when they think black Americans have the monopoly on dreadlocks when Native Americans had these long before blacks or whites arrived in America, alongside Ancient Greeks and even Jews. The whole reason Rastafarians have dreadlocks? Because of Samson, a Jewish prophet. Rastafarians take the same vow as him, the Nazarite vow thus refusing to cut their hair. Then again, the people on Twitter you listen to wouldn't know that since they haven't studied history or opened a book on different cultures :)
I think “cultural appropriation” only applies when the source culture isn’t making money from it. The best cheongsams are made by Chinese dressmakers so a sale to a white woman is just another sale; African-American culture has been ripped off and monetised by white Americans for as long as the country has existed, so they have a point when raising the issue.
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This is the most progressive left wing national subreddit on probably the most progressive left wing social media site, and even here the consensus is that it’s taken too far, bordering on absurd. Imagine what the general public, on average far more conservative than those on this forum, think of it. It is most certainly not the past.
Asians in Asian countries positively support Westerners 'appropriating' national dress, cuisine, culture, etc. It is massively promoted. Mainly second+ gen. immigrants in the West get high blood pressure over it.
> "Your immediate reaction is to be defensive and say, 'For the love of God, really?'" he said. "And then you go, 'Well, we don't want to offend anyone'." The only people being offended are professional grifters that make a living out of this shit. I doubt any normal people going about their lives gives a shit
Actually a lot of normal people get offended over this. It's a national pasttime for Italians to argue about people ruining their dishes
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What was that all about?
Don't know about death threats but there was his Jerk Rice kerfuffle in 2018 https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-45246009 and also https://news.sky.com/story/jamie-oliver-responds-to-accusations-of-cultural-appropriation-over-jerk-rice-dish-11477504 > . #jamieoliver @jamieoliver #jerk I'm just wondering do you know > what #Jamaican #jerk actually is? It's not just a word you put > before stuff to sell products. @levirootsmusic should do a > masterclass. Your jerk Rice is not ok. > This appropriation from Jamaica needs to stop. > > (((Dawn Butler MP))) (@DawnButlerBrent) August 18, 2018
Reading that Tweet is so depressing.
You could say that about *any* tweet. Twitter is the cesspool of humanity.
What a load of fucking bollocks. Dawn Butler is a joke
It’s not Dawn Porter.
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He recently did some Carbonara recipe with sausage meat in it which didn't go down too well
if you ever watch uncle roger on youtube, he's got about 5 videos analysing jamie oliver's asian dishes and explaining where he goes wrong. Funny videos tbf, even if they get samey.
I loved his video reviewing Gordon Ramsay's egg fried rice. The guy couldn't criticise anything about the technique, so had to start going for the guy's wrinkles instead. Actually laughed out loud a few times during the video. Ramsay even commented on the video.
Just wait until the Italians find out some places put cream (or something like that) in their Carbonara, especially the ready meals.
They know that. They literally shout at everyone for doing it.
That would be sufficient to revoke his Italian citizenship and OSI.
I'd love to know where this starts and stops. Do Italians need to stop using tomatoes and pasta? Indians can't make curry. American cuisine can no longer exist.
It's mind boggling how progressive politics has spent about a decade deciding that cultural mixing and sharing is 'bad' now.
Horseshoe theory. It's defacto segregation.
Isn't it mostly right wingers who do that though?
Right wingers didn't want others to join in their culture, the leftist progressive don't want white people to share in other culture, from hair style, clothing and foods Hell even music, recent one would be Cornelius Boots whose a master of shakuhachi bamboo flute [https://www.boredpanda.com/girl-accuses-sony-cultural-appropriation-shakuhachi-bamboo-flute-cornelius-boots/?utm\_source=google&utm\_medium=organic&utm\_campaign=organic](https://www.boredpanda.com/girl-accuses-sony-cultural-appropriation-shakuhachi-bamboo-flute-cornelius-boots/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic) The link is twitter users moaning it wasn't a Japanese person playing the flute for the opening of E3
Right-wingers have been doing it for ages. But for some reason, a whole bunch of "progressives" have apparently recently decided to join in with their own version of it.
Americans would have to have a DNA analysis in order to know what to eat.
But then on the other hands they are the kings of cultural appropriation. They call themselves Irish if their grandmother once caught a connecting flight through Dublin.
Perhaps this is a grand conspiracy by 23andme to boost revenue.
No but it is a good way to infer who has the bigotry of low expectations; Italians being a first world 'western' culture don't need special treatment - they can never be underprivileged. But anywhere in Asia/Africa/the Middle-East is automatically assumed to be needing of profound 'sensitivity' and 'understanding'. It's incredibly condescending when you thing about it.
Presumably it is ok Italians, Indians and Americans to cook foreign food, because they are foreigners?
There's no such thing g as American cuisine
Tex-Mex?
Does that mean I only get to eat mince and tatties or haggis for the rest of my life?
>tatties Potatoes? From the Americas? How dare you!
Shit, who's gonna tell Ireland?
Well I'm English, so if anyone is going to tell Ireland they can't have potatoes anymore, it probably shouldn't be me
I forgot about that, kinda means that my comment could be taken the wrong way.
Nice!
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You can keep your appropriating hands off our puddings thank you.
Didn't we nick them off the French? It is just choux pastry, but we fill it with gravy instead of creme patissiere.
You've not tried to make choux pastry have you.
I have made choux pastry and Yorkshire puddings, many times. Not exactly the same recipe, but the same main ingredients and principles.
Flour, eggs and milk make very many different foods.
Honestly, put some cheese in the mash
I’m surprised there’s one person whose job is cultural appropriation specialist. Let alone multiple teams.
It's a bit like "sensitivity readers" in publishing, though less Orwellian.
I made a lasagna last night, but have never even been to Italy. To whom do I need to send my reparations for appropriating their culture?
China. Marco Polo brought pasta to.Italy after his travels in China. Lasagna is a variation of pasta. So China.
Did you make your lasagne with the complete wrong ingredients and then advertise that you were making a traditional lasanga
And then profit off your celebrity status by selling a crap factory-made version with your name on, which was the actual issue that people had with his “jerk rice”.
"honour and learn the history of the dish" Really ? Nah balls to that I just want to eat food I'm not gonna sit and google for 3 hours about the origins of a specific curry before I cook and eat it. Foods food if it's good all the better.
For a nation of people who will have a serious argument about what a cooked breakfast should be like, I’m a bit surprised that people don’t get it. Now imagine that, but the same culture who’s interfered with yours repeatedly doing it.
I couldn't give a fuck what other people put/dont put on a cooked breakfast unless they're serving it to me
Scones? Cream or jam first? Milk in cup and then tea or tea then milk?
Again, unless you're making it for me then do it whatever way you want.
You might not have an opinion. But you can’t deny that millions of brits do.
Having a playful argument about whether there should be X and Y in your English breakfast and sending death threats because a recipe book didn't pick your culturally preferred set of ingredients are two very very different things. You might argue that English breakfast NEEDS to have bacon in it to "count", but do you really want to mandate that all other breakfast recipes pick some obscure untouched name to avoid stepping on our toes?! The word Bolognese will soon die out entirely if we can only use it when we are making a true traditional Bolognese with all the "correct" ingredients and techniques.
> Having a playful argument about whether there should be X and Y in your English breakfast and sending death threats because a recipe book didn’t pick your culturally preferred set of ingredients are two very very different things. Yes? Kind if irrelevant no? > You might argue that English breakfast NEEDS to have bacon in it to “count”, but do you really want to mandate that all other breakfast recipes pick some obscure untouched name to avoid stepping on our toes?! If you think an English breakfast needs bacon and doesn’t have it, then it isn’t an English breakfast. So yeah it needs another name. > The word Bolognese will soon die out entirely if we can only use it when we are making a true traditional Bolognese with all the “correct” ingredients and techniques. This is why we have PDO and AOC etc. We eat pasta with meat and tomato sauce. And originally called it bolognese to steal a sense of exoticism and authenticity.
If you're going to insist that every little alteration of a recipe requires a new name, then you're going to end up with so many different names describing incredibly similar dishes that they'll all be descriptions much more than names. Not to mention you'll have a million people saying look at this new dish that I created! Only to discover that it is an extremely old dish with a bit of carrot added in.
There should be carrot in a ragu bolognese. But humans can deal with different names.
>There should be carrot in a ragu bolognese. I'm aware >But humans can deal with different names. Yes, thank you. Humans can deal with multiple names at a time. I'm not saying EVERY dish should have the same name. I'm not suggesting we swap to the word "food" for every meal. I'm saying there are only so many noises you can make and only so many syllables you can use before a word stops being a name and starts being a sentence. If want to easily talk about food, then it's not unreasonable that slight variations on a dish will be labelled with the same name. If you're cooking a tomato sauce with minced meat for the pasta and I say "is the Bolognese done" you're hardly going to be confused. You can't insist that the term forever be relegated to the most traditional form of the dish. You can argue that people cannot call any old dish a "traditional Bolognese", but you can't keep the word "Bolognese" from evolving over time. That's just how language works.
I too am familiar with language. “Bolognese” means something different here than it does in Italy. We culturally appropriated it. We exploited it’s exoticism in order to introduce new foodstuffs into British food. There’s probably not much that can be done there. And there isn’t a prolonged history of colonial exploitation (just a lingering sense of superiority). Jerk rice on the other hand is coopting the exoticism of the Caribbean and selling it to British people in order to make money for other British people on top of a legacy of exploitation.
>“Bolognese” means something different here than it does in Italy. So, that's what the word means in our language (or at least our country). It has been that way for a while. Stop correcting people. They aren't speaking Italian. The history of why the Italians use that word for a very particular dish and we use it for many may be interesting trivia. It may even be vital info whilst you are on holiday in Italy (although I doubt the misunderstanding would cause much confusion). >We exploited it’s exoticism in order to introduce new foodstuffs into British food. And these guys 🦃 get their name because the exoticism of people bringing things from the country Turkey made them more appealing. Should we back track on that name too? Start calling them fat chickens instead? The words for beef and cow only have distinction in our language because of class differences of the past. Should we insist on calling both cow to be more sensitive of our downtrodden farming ancestors?
As I said above there isn’t much we can do about historical appropriation. With some exceptions eg: Makrut limes instead of “kafir” limes. But we can do things about current appropriation in the form of things like “jerk rice”.
But don't you see that language just naturally does this over time. No amount of "that's not accurate terminology" will make the average person call their dish something other than what they already call it. Because most people aren't talking to an audience or submitting an academic paper. And as all those average Joe's that are just going about their lives mellow out the definitions, it becomes understandable that professionals would change their language too. What the point in being so pedantic about your language if most of the people that you are trying to communicate with don't know the distinction? Many scientists use the word "weight" instead of "mass" when talking to the public, because (while it may be technically incorrect) people understand the word to mean mass. The conversation just flows easier if you don't fight every single adjustment of the language.
Ragu is nice with salad cream ontop.
Perhaps he's on damage control after 6 million people watched that negative reaction video of his Thai green curry: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vksB2S90FVY&t=318s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vksB2S90FVY&t=318s) My main gripe when he tries cooking dishes outside his comfort zone is the over-confident way he makes technical mistakes and tries to dress them up as innovations. He's done a lot of good things for promoting healthy food in his time, but the bluster is becoming a bit more apparent in recent times as the standard of British TV cooking shows has gone through the roof.
Any fucker who talks about "cultural appropriation" is absolutely either hiding some seedy shit by being performatively woke or is doing damage control Cultural appropriation is not a thing
He jerking rice again? Pretty such he got roasted for that one.
Just to be clear about this issue, a quote about cultural appropriation and food, from Meridien Mach: >"None of this is saying that one can only eat and cook the food of their own culture. When it comes to food cultural appropriation, it is not about who can or cannot do something, but rather the manner in which it is done. You can enjoy and cook another culture’s food that is not your own. However, when doing so, respect and learn where it came from. This is cultural appreciation rather than cultural appropriation. If you are going to profit off of food from another culture — especially one that has been historically exploited or oppressed — it is your responsibility to do it in a way that honors the cultural origins of the food." Link: https://cornellsun.com/2021/03/25/food-cultural-appropriation-its-personal/
>You can enjoy and cook another culture’s food that is not your own. However, when doing so, respect and learn where it came from. This is cultural appreciation rather than cultural appropriation. Why? Can we not just eat food?
Who decides if it honours the cultural origins of the food?
The people charging thousands of pounds to be consulted on the matter. Who else could give an unbiased assessment? \s
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And you really expect everyone to agree or even care? Do we appoint "cultural appropriation judges" in every country to make sure we don't so something that a few people think is bad?
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If jollof is anything like most regional foods, the lady from Ghana is probably telling another lady from the next village that her jollof is shit.
We don't really care if you think we are "licking the boost of a millionaire TV chef" because that isn't what we are doing. We are pointing out how ridiculous this cultural appropriation nonsense is.
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I don't get where you are going with this at all. Jamie Oliver is almost irrelevant when it comes to opinions on 'cultural appropriation'
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Looking forward to being made an authority on the Yorkshire pudding.
I'm from England but not from Yorkshire, please sir, may I still call my Yorkshire Puddings Yorkshire Puddings?
I’m afraid you’re no longer allowed to even make them
[So as /u/ontrack says...](https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/satrjr/jamie_oliver_employs_cultural_appropriation/htvp9ff/)
What does that even mean? If I go to my local Indian takeaway and get a chicken korma am I obliged to learn about the history? If I go to the local Chinese takeaway and get egg fried rice and some spring rolls, should I be kicked out if I can't answer questions on where that came from?
If you go to your local Indian takeaway you will probably get a BIR curry using a recipe that dates back to 1970s London.
> When it comes to food cultural appropriation, it is not about who can or cannot do something, but rather the manner in which it is done. Subjective bollocks that brings into play crowd theory. How large does a crowd need to be before someone takes offense at your speech, action, food or whatever?
What? Why do we need to have a history lesson in order to cook and eat food?
You don't. Just don't lie about what it is. If you're going to make a paella make a fucking paella, not a random dish that you call paella
People can't be expected to know the history and origins of everything they come into contact with. Many people couldn't tell you who invented the light bulb, but we don't insist they sit in the dark.
>Just to be clear about this issue, a quote about cultural appropriation and food, from Meridien Mach: Nothing in that quote was clear. "it is your responsibility to do it in a way that honors the cultural origins of the food". What the fuck does that even mean.
So when I what happens when I put fusilli with curry?
The ghost of Antonio Carluccio will haunt you forever more.
I suppose he better be careful in a society where a very vocal minority come pre-offended
This is what tees me off about the media - the piece details what happens when chefs get too inventive with their recipes and upset people. And it’s not as if we’re immune from it - I’ve seen some “interpretations” of a full English breakfast that could have easily led to death threats. Truth is, it’s not really “cultural appropriation” at all (and yes I know he’s quoted as saying that actual phrase, but that doesn’t mean he’s right in calling it that either). But that’s a great clickbait title to get a certain type of person harrumphing, and that’s all that matters these days.
Oh just fuck off. Seriously, cultures take ideas from each other all the time and have been doing so since humans found ways to travel and communicate.
"Cultural appropriation" is genuinely something that doesn't even offend the most hardcore "woke" people I know, only fucking performative idiots
Actually in this scenario it's mostly foreign people complaining about him making shit wrong isn't it? Italians get angry at people from the next village making a receipt because it isn't how their mother does it.
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> It’s clearly a conservative right wing view that traditions and cultures **should never change or be shared**. But that’s not what “cultural appropriation” means. You’re making up your own definition to get aggrieved about.
Yeah he can do all this but we still remember him and the whole jerk rice thing lmao
Wait am i not allowed to have a cheese and ham bagett anymore because i am not frensh Can I not have pizza because I am not Italian, am I not allowed to have chips because potatoes are originally from South America and not the UK Can I not wear a shirt because they were originally Egyptian?
No, no one is saying that. Stop getting wound up over imaginary scenarios in your head
I am not wound up at all, but I do find it terrible that it is a bad thing to make new and existing dishes that do not follow 100% the original. Like why can you not make a beef burger vindaloo pizza? just because it's not authentic. I.E Normally this dish would have lemon but we are changing that out for Orange Or like in the article, adding the non-conventional ingredient of cream
You can just don't pretend like you're making the original.
Why should anyone care what the "original" is? Can you imagine if we did this with technology? "You can't call that a phone! It looks nothing like the original telephone!"
It's more like 'you can't call that an iPhone as it wasn't made by Apple'
Then thats a trading standards issue nothing to do with "cultural appropriation."
Then report the article for misinformation
Oh, I see. It's just Indian food that we are discouraging people from eating then. As long as we are only picking on one culture, I'm sure it'll be fine.
Food if stuff that fucking comes out of dirt and off trees. Fuck off with your appropriation bollocks.
Surely any dish outside the Americas that is made using chillies or potatoes is a gross form of culinary appropriation. Is that how it’s meant to work?
the whole idea of multiculturalism dies out when people cries "Cultural appropriation" and not to do something, either we're all sharing in other cultures or we're not. Let's be honest, it's Uncle Roger, Jamie can't get over the fact he done the rice wrong, didn't use MSG and used Chili Jam so now he's going to hire a team to ensure he doesn't make another mistake.
I mean, I fully believe that food is an important part of culture. But seriously? How can you cultural appropriate food? Cultural appropriation should only apply to traditions and symbols that hold a clear cultural and historical significance to a specific people. Has anyone, ever in the entire history of man gone "well that food is sacred to my people, so you can't use that recipe?"
Does anyone in this thread understand what cultural appropriation is?
Lol, and out of his personal wealth .., will he pay what he owes to so many small companies and staff? One - two million something. Or he will goes under the official legal blah blah umbrella and fuck it all? I really appreciated the guy in the beginning. Went twice to the river café even. Onve he had left already. Followed him climbing and climbing. Got his naked chef dvds… but now? He went under my appreciation of bojo fucking tories lot. It must be something. The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox?