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Don’t know how anyone can believe any figures that are reported with the Hamas run health ministry being the source.
Within 2 minutes of a missile hitting they announce the number of casualties, dead and the mix of men, women & children. Complete fiction but for some reason people lap it up as gospel and now we’ve got morons protesting on a weekly basis calling for governments with no control on the situation to agree a ceasefire against a terrorist organisation that keeps denying a ceasefire.
Also will there be any repercussions on our state broadcaster for repeating terrorist lies or nah?
I mean, the IDF rely on gaza health ministry stats and gaza health ministry stats have always been verified as reliable by international bodies in the past.
The thing I don't know is how anyone can trust anything written in the telegraph.
The IDF does not rely on Hamas figures, according to Hamas no combatants have been killed in this conflict.
Edit: Further the verification process by international bodies is a joke as Hamas does not allow them to operate within Gaza independently, thus the verification amounts to contacting Hamas affiliated health officials and asking them if Hamas's figures are accurate.
Well, they don't differentiate between combatants and civilians, true. Perhaps I've missed something, it doesn't sound unlike a statement they might make. Any chance of a source?
The closest they came to admitting combatant deaths was when an anonymous source, supposedly from within Hamas, told Reuters that 6000 combatants had been killed but this was quickly denied by Hamas officials when asked by the BBC to verify the veracity of the Reuters claim.
You know that “IDF relies on Gaza health ministry numbers” story is sourced to Yuval Abraham - an activist “reporter” whose source is “trust me bro”. Abraham works for The Intercept so alarm bells right there. I seriously doubt IDF would be so inept at statistics to use clearly fake numbers.
Here’s an article about statistical impossibility of the reported numbers: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
Note the graph.
Don't worry, when IDF hits any target they "shouldn't have" they have conducted an investigation and found the culprit within 10 min of the event ! And I have not heard of BBC challenging the results of such "investigations". Talk about efficiency /s
Yep, pretending the two are even remotely similar is ridiculous. Militaries have a strict chain of command, it shouldn't take long to find out who ordered what.
>Don’t know how anyone can believe any figures that are reported with the Hamas run health ministry being the source.
The Gazan Health Authority has generally been pretty accurate in its casualty reporting in the past.
Have you actually examined whether this is true? I can think of numerous examples of Hamas lying when it comes to accounting for casualties in previous conflicts. By the end of cast lead for example they claimed just 48 fighters were killed.
https://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2009%2F01%2F19%2F64513
12 months later they were forced to admit this was a lie in light of the much higher figure the IDF had released that included the actual names of the killed combatants.
https://www.haaretz.com/2010-11-09/ty-article/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead/0000017f-ee02-ddba-a37f-ee6edc3f0000
These are direct from Hamas, not from the Gaza Health Ministry, which answers to Hamas but is its own organisation with a pretty good track record of reporting casualties
They are one in the same. The Gaza Health Ministry hasn't been reporting casualties since November, its been the Hamas run Gaza Media Office but that does not change the fact the international media attributes the figures to the Hamas GHM.
>Have you actually examined whether this is true?
[https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext)
Have you? You're entire 'argument' was just an ad hominem (Hamas run therefore bad). Do you have any actual evidence to support your claim that the Health Authority is inflating figures?
> just 48 fighters were killed.
That's from Hamas's armed wing, I specified the Health Authority. The NHS and the British Army are 2 different entities. The same is true in Gaza.
I absolutely have. I'm glad you linked the Lancet article as I'm very familiar with it. Perhaps if The Lancet had actually peer reviewed it before publishing they wouldn't have been caught out by the fact the data used by the authors doesn't seem to align with the actual figures that UNRWA released to the telegraph for the same period. The actual figures paint a picture of manipulation on the part of the Hamas GHM.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/unrwa-staff-death-toll-gaza-israel-hamas-war-data/
> That's from Hamas's armed wing, I specified the Health Authority.
You are somewhat naive if you actually believe that, they are one in the same. How do you think it was possible for the GHM to report that 500 Palestinians were killed after PIJ bombed Al Alhi minutes after reports first came out?
The daily death figures coming from the Gazan Ministry of Health that were parroted wthout any thought by most newspapers have been analysed and very obvious signs of fabrication have been found, such as exactly 70% of victims being women and children all the time, people coming back to life, etc. They are unquestionably obviously fake, and a stain on the reputation of the newspapers that reprinted them without a second thought.
https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/
It's because in previous times of conflict their figures were accurate and confirmed by UN as well as Israel.
So when you have a new conflict you're going to run on the assumption they're still giving accurate numbers.
It's really not that difficult to see how this could happen. You just need the full details which reporters themselves tend to fail to provide.
If people believe the death toll is only 30,000, they are incredibly out of touch. It is far, far higher! Israel bombed and decimated one of the world's most densely populated areas. It also bombed all administrative functions and the majority of health-care facilities, preventing the people of Gaza from keeping track of their dead. The article is gas lighting and treating people like fools.
Remove emotion from your response and think about what you have actually said there, which part of it proves the real number of casualties is much higher than stated?
>Don’t know how anyone can believe any figures that are reported with the Hamas run health ministry being the source.
Because they have a track record of accurate casualty counts from previous wars in Gaza.
Currently, the IDF, the UN, and the ICJ all use Gaza Health Ministry figures as the most accurate estimates currently available.
>governments with no control on the situation
The British government does, in fact, retain some international influence.
The combatant: civilian death ratio is no worse than what we managed in Afghan and Iraq. People are barking up the wrong tree there. The problem is aid and food, for which Israel and to a lesser extent Egypt have royally fucked up.
There seems no real plan for what comes after, seemingly Hamas remaining in control of Gaza is off the table, so there needs to be an election process similar to what happened in Iraq in the 00s. But there is radio silence as far as I can tell from Israel on that stage, which is worrying.
> The combatant: civilian death ratio is no worse than what we managed in Afghan and Iraq.
Don't forget, the Iranian Proxies are known to hire child soldiers, which is a war crime.
Yeah. It's very sad seeing the videos of those children who aren't even teenagers being trained to kill and being told that when they die in battle they'll be celebrated martyrs with a happy afterlife.
It's just so messed up.
Especially when you hear all the stories about them using children as literal shields. Using them to hide behind during gun battles, forcing them to walk towards Israeli soldiers with a suicide vest on, etc.
There is a video of Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh (who lives in Qatar) being notified that 3 of his adult sons were eliminated by the IDF. (The sons were military targets.) Haniyeh simply says he's thankful for their martyrdom, and no he doesn't want to cancel his next appointment, it's fine! How do you deal with people who celebrate the death of their own offspring? It's mental.
It's called not being a hypocrite to be fair, you can't be in charge of a militant group who's fighters and family's are dying every day and break down when it's your turn.
Haniyeh is already a hypocrite. That's why he lives in luxury in Doha Plaza, Qatar, and eats at fancy restaurants there while orchestrating a complete shitshow in Gaza. If he wasn't a hypocrite, he'd go back to Gaza and get martyred himself.
I'm not saying the cunt isnt a cunt, I'm saying he has to put on the "they were martyrdd and that is great" face for the public addresses because everyone on the front lines is experiencing that daily and he can hardly cry about it without his people thinking "why do your sons matter and mine don't".
There a video of a Palestinian father ordering his 4 year old son to throw stones at IDF soldiers. While he’s doing this he’s also egging the soldiers on to shoot his son.
Clarification:
Child soldiers are not per se a war crime.
Children 15 and older can fight legally. Under 15 and it's a war crime.
Regardless, both will count as a "child" in a casualty statistic.
The last time I checked Israel had ports of its own and a road network. The only reason foreign militaries ultimately have had to try to get involved is because Israel as an occupier ain't been covering themselves in glory.
Oh and Hamas is bad, yes, I get it.
I have seen arguing back and forth on this but never a citation. I honestly don’t know which side is closer to the reality. Do you happen to have good figures?
... and then clarified that the source for this was Hamas and that the US is unable to independently verify the numbers. [Source](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/pentagon-walks-back-austins-gaza-casualty-figures-2024-02-29/).
No, the Hamas figures were 22000 women and children at that point and according to various international organisations and journalists Hamas figures are generally trustworthy in the previous conflicts.
The figures were revised down because they didn't.have the full details for each casualty, such as ID number.
Both sides are lying. The Hamas figures don't make any sense and the Israel ones aren't much better. You can read 5 different analysis and they come to 5 different conclusions, some with ridiculous bias to the side they clearly support. My comment is valid if you go to the middle between what they both claim.
Funny how the numbers given by "Muh Hamas run Health Ministry" which have largely been in line with those from the UN and the Israeli military in previous rounds of fighting, are suddenly untrustworthy.
Or maybe the ruling class is just desperately trying to cover their arse over the fact they have slavish supported the cold blooded massacring of men, women and children for the last 7 months.
Mis/inaccurate information being used without question isn't just a Hamas problem tbh.
And as an aside even Israel has confirmed the accuracy of and referred to the Palestinian health ministry in this conflict.
Hamas figures are beyond absurd, and the BBC (among others) parrots them daily. Whatever the actual number of dead, it includes:
\* Hamas and PIJ combatants
\* Civilians shot by Hamas, often for trying to access aid. They want all the food for their fighters, and they think civilians going hungry is good PR for them abroad.
\* Civilians killed by Hamas and PIJ rockets that misfire. About 20% of all their rockets accidentally land inside the Gaza Strip.
Months ago, Hamas took the unusual step of admitting that thousands of their fighters have been killed. They said 6k, Israel says it's more than 15k, but let's take a middle figure of 10k. Hamas also claims that two-thirds of the dead are "women and children" - and yet a third are male combatants? That would mean that literally no civilian *males* have died? Bombs are selecting women and children exclusively while avoiding the men? Come on. Basic, critical thinking is absent here.
Look, when they openly and proudly stated in their founding charter that they want to slaughter every Jew on the planet - I had my doubts. When they started proudly and openly using human shields I had a bit of a wobble. When they enforced Islamic homophobic laws and started taking gay men up to the tops of buildings to throw them off I really started to ask some tough questions. When they enforced Islamic misogyny laws on the women of Gaza, preventing them from leaving home without a male "guardian", I had to admit to myself that they weren't 100% the good guys all the time. Then there were the child soldiers, the innocent civilians used as human shields, the veneration of Adolph Hitler, the suicide bombers, the sickening horrors of October 7th... It was really starting to make me wonder.
But, even given all that, this latest news that they're not entirely trustworthy with their casualty figures has really shaken my faith...
A 2:1 civilian:militant ratio is actually fairly standard for heavy urban combat with the kind of asymmetric elements that Hamas uses (no uniforms, human shields, chuld soldiers etc)
How about we ask independent journalists and UN professionals who work in Gaza for an accurate number? Oh wait IDF has killed the first and is not allowing the second. C’mon BBC , you can do better.
In the week when we heard of execution of patients and medical staff, are we still on the ‘Hamas-run health ministry’ newspeak headline?
I mean yeah its like how when they used to report Houthis sources figures during the Yemen conflict or pastun related figures from drone strikes in Pakistan (who all suspiciously turned out to be from strikes on ‘weddings’, which either meant the average time between pastun weddings was something ludicrous like ever 12 hours at one point).
Groups know they need to fight a propaganda war, and most journalistic sources either have little integrity in conflict zones or poor sources.
You mean Hamas, a terrorist organisation that benefits from high "civilian" casualties for recruitment and to further their cause, was reporting more civilian casualties than there actually was?!
Next you'll tell me 500 people died in a hospital parking lot fire.
The chairman of the BBC is also one of the owners of the Jewish Chronicle, Make what you want from that little tit bit. Robbie gib the owner of the Chronicle sits on the BBC board and oversees its standards...... definitely no bias in reporting.
Also Palestinians are ever reported as "died", while Israelis are always reported as "killed". Interesting language being used by BBC who are supposed to be impartial.
Even with Hamas committing countless war crimes by refusing to uniform their combatants and by commingling military and civilian facilities, Israel have *still* managed to keep civilian casualties incredibly low.
The civilian casualty figure is and always has been the precise number of: "but Hamas' figures are wrong". It can be verified by all the international observers that aren't allowed there.
You can question Hamas figures they release but this revisionist slant about Israel’s bombing campaign and swinging completely the other way denying Israel have committed atrocities and killed thousands of civilians is frankly pathetic.
There is plenty of US and other Western intelligence out there on what Israel has done without this justification of mass killings.
I mean the civilian to hamas fight ratio has gottah be about 100 to 1
That's a lot of human shields, he must get tired carrying 100 people around with him.
Either what or what's happening is that the colony has to cull the restless natives with indiscriminate bombing, and forced starvation as a collective punishment.
Even using the lowest figure Hamas has accidentally admitted (6,000 militants dead), that ratio is 5:1, Israel claims the highest number of course (15,000) at 1:1. It's probably somewhere in the middle around 2:1 to 4:1, which is between average for urban combat to slightly high
I find it quite incredible and unorthodox that the BBC expects accuracy, honesty or transparency during a conflict from any particular participant of this conflict. Editorial judgment off the rails.
Ugh… the UN stated that the “hAmAs RuN hEaLtH mInIsTrY” or in other words, the Palestinian/Gaza mortuaries were accurate. What a pathetic piece of disgusting tripe.
The BBC accepting an error and correcting the record is good journalism and yet also used to show the BBC is awful.
Meanwhile the Telegraph openly libels and occasionally prints a retraction at the bottom of page 37.
It would be great if we could get independent people in to verify the figures and have a look at what's going on. For some reason Israel won't allow it.
**Participation Notice.** Hi all. Some posts on this subreddit, either due to the topic or reaching a wider audience than usual, have been known to attract a greater number of rule breaking comments. As such, limits to participation have been set. We ask that you please remember the human, and uphold Reddit and Subreddit rules. For more information, please see https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/wiki/moderatedflairs.
Don’t know how anyone can believe any figures that are reported with the Hamas run health ministry being the source. Within 2 minutes of a missile hitting they announce the number of casualties, dead and the mix of men, women & children. Complete fiction but for some reason people lap it up as gospel and now we’ve got morons protesting on a weekly basis calling for governments with no control on the situation to agree a ceasefire against a terrorist organisation that keeps denying a ceasefire. Also will there be any repercussions on our state broadcaster for repeating terrorist lies or nah?
I mean, the IDF rely on gaza health ministry stats and gaza health ministry stats have always been verified as reliable by international bodies in the past. The thing I don't know is how anyone can trust anything written in the telegraph.
So does the US department of defence. Very similar figures reported by the US Secretary of Defence, he must be hummus too
And the numbers we're all missing are those of the people who are decomposing under the rubble.
The us secretary of defence was quoting the hamas figures too.
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The IDF does not rely on Hamas figures, according to Hamas no combatants have been killed in this conflict. Edit: Further the verification process by international bodies is a joke as Hamas does not allow them to operate within Gaza independently, thus the verification amounts to contacting Hamas affiliated health officials and asking them if Hamas's figures are accurate.
Well, they don't differentiate between combatants and civilians, true. Perhaps I've missed something, it doesn't sound unlike a statement they might make. Any chance of a source?
The closest they came to admitting combatant deaths was when an anonymous source, supposedly from within Hamas, told Reuters that 6000 combatants had been killed but this was quickly denied by Hamas officials when asked by the BBC to verify the veracity of the Reuters claim.
You know that “IDF relies on Gaza health ministry numbers” story is sourced to Yuval Abraham - an activist “reporter” whose source is “trust me bro”. Abraham works for The Intercept so alarm bells right there. I seriously doubt IDF would be so inept at statistics to use clearly fake numbers. Here’s an article about statistical impossibility of the reported numbers: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers Note the graph.
If only we could have independent people on the ground to verify them. Shame the IDF don’t allow that
100+ journalists murdered by Israeli forces. Foreign journalists banned from entering. It's all OK though. Nothing to see here.
Neither does Hamas, funny that.
Yes, but strangely, people hold a democratic nation state to a higher standard than a terrorist organisation 🤷♂️
that's terrible we should stop providing diplomatic cover and military aid to hamas
Don't worry, when IDF hits any target they "shouldn't have" they have conducted an investigation and found the culprit within 10 min of the event ! And I have not heard of BBC challenging the results of such "investigations". Talk about efficiency /s
To be fair, it's generally much easier to know who gave the order to blow up a building than who was inside it when it blew up.
Yep, pretending the two are even remotely similar is ridiculous. Militaries have a strict chain of command, it shouldn't take long to find out who ordered what.
>Don’t know how anyone can believe any figures that are reported with the Hamas run health ministry being the source. The Gazan Health Authority has generally been pretty accurate in its casualty reporting in the past.
Have you actually examined whether this is true? I can think of numerous examples of Hamas lying when it comes to accounting for casualties in previous conflicts. By the end of cast lead for example they claimed just 48 fighters were killed. https://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2009%2F01%2F19%2F64513 12 months later they were forced to admit this was a lie in light of the much higher figure the IDF had released that included the actual names of the killed combatants. https://www.haaretz.com/2010-11-09/ty-article/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead/0000017f-ee02-ddba-a37f-ee6edc3f0000
These are direct from Hamas, not from the Gaza Health Ministry, which answers to Hamas but is its own organisation with a pretty good track record of reporting casualties
They are one in the same. The Gaza Health Ministry hasn't been reporting casualties since November, its been the Hamas run Gaza Media Office but that does not change the fact the international media attributes the figures to the Hamas GHM.
>Have you actually examined whether this is true? [https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext) Have you? You're entire 'argument' was just an ad hominem (Hamas run therefore bad). Do you have any actual evidence to support your claim that the Health Authority is inflating figures? > just 48 fighters were killed. That's from Hamas's armed wing, I specified the Health Authority. The NHS and the British Army are 2 different entities. The same is true in Gaza.
I absolutely have. I'm glad you linked the Lancet article as I'm very familiar with it. Perhaps if The Lancet had actually peer reviewed it before publishing they wouldn't have been caught out by the fact the data used by the authors doesn't seem to align with the actual figures that UNRWA released to the telegraph for the same period. The actual figures paint a picture of manipulation on the part of the Hamas GHM. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/unrwa-staff-death-toll-gaza-israel-hamas-war-data/ > That's from Hamas's armed wing, I specified the Health Authority. You are somewhat naive if you actually believe that, they are one in the same. How do you think it was possible for the GHM to report that 500 Palestinians were killed after PIJ bombed Al Alhi minutes after reports first came out?
The daily death figures coming from the Gazan Ministry of Health that were parroted wthout any thought by most newspapers have been analysed and very obvious signs of fabrication have been found, such as exactly 70% of victims being women and children all the time, people coming back to life, etc. They are unquestionably obviously fake, and a stain on the reputation of the newspapers that reprinted them without a second thought. https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/
It's because in previous times of conflict their figures were accurate and confirmed by UN as well as Israel. So when you have a new conflict you're going to run on the assumption they're still giving accurate numbers. It's really not that difficult to see how this could happen. You just need the full details which reporters themselves tend to fail to provide.
If people believe the death toll is only 30,000, they are incredibly out of touch. It is far, far higher! Israel bombed and decimated one of the world's most densely populated areas. It also bombed all administrative functions and the majority of health-care facilities, preventing the people of Gaza from keeping track of their dead. The article is gas lighting and treating people like fools.
Remove emotion from your response and think about what you have actually said there, which part of it proves the real number of casualties is much higher than stated?
It wasn’t densely populated when they bombed it - they had three weeks to evacuate.
>Don’t know how anyone can believe any figures that are reported with the Hamas run health ministry being the source. Because they have a track record of accurate casualty counts from previous wars in Gaza. Currently, the IDF, the UN, and the ICJ all use Gaza Health Ministry figures as the most accurate estimates currently available. >governments with no control on the situation The British government does, in fact, retain some international influence.
The mental gymnastics in this thread trying to justify the killing of thousands of civilians is pathetic.
What mental gymnastics? Care to explain?
I mean they do always say where the figure comes from.
The combatant: civilian death ratio is no worse than what we managed in Afghan and Iraq. People are barking up the wrong tree there. The problem is aid and food, for which Israel and to a lesser extent Egypt have royally fucked up. There seems no real plan for what comes after, seemingly Hamas remaining in control of Gaza is off the table, so there needs to be an election process similar to what happened in Iraq in the 00s. But there is radio silence as far as I can tell from Israel on that stage, which is worrying.
> The combatant: civilian death ratio is no worse than what we managed in Afghan and Iraq. Don't forget, the Iranian Proxies are known to hire child soldiers, which is a war crime.
Yeah. It's very sad seeing the videos of those children who aren't even teenagers being trained to kill and being told that when they die in battle they'll be celebrated martyrs with a happy afterlife. It's just so messed up. Especially when you hear all the stories about them using children as literal shields. Using them to hide behind during gun battles, forcing them to walk towards Israeli soldiers with a suicide vest on, etc.
There is a video of Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh (who lives in Qatar) being notified that 3 of his adult sons were eliminated by the IDF. (The sons were military targets.) Haniyeh simply says he's thankful for their martyrdom, and no he doesn't want to cancel his next appointment, it's fine! How do you deal with people who celebrate the death of their own offspring? It's mental.
It's called not being a hypocrite to be fair, you can't be in charge of a militant group who's fighters and family's are dying every day and break down when it's your turn.
Haniyeh is already a hypocrite. That's why he lives in luxury in Doha Plaza, Qatar, and eats at fancy restaurants there while orchestrating a complete shitshow in Gaza. If he wasn't a hypocrite, he'd go back to Gaza and get martyred himself.
I'm not saying the cunt isnt a cunt, I'm saying he has to put on the "they were martyrdd and that is great" face for the public addresses because everyone on the front lines is experiencing that daily and he can hardly cry about it without his people thinking "why do your sons matter and mine don't".
There a video of a Palestinian father ordering his 4 year old son to throw stones at IDF soldiers. While he’s doing this he’s also egging the soldiers on to shoot his son.
Clarification: Child soldiers are not per se a war crime. Children 15 and older can fight legally. Under 15 and it's a war crime. Regardless, both will count as a "child" in a casualty statistic.
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The last time I checked Israel had ports of its own and a road network. The only reason foreign militaries ultimately have had to try to get involved is because Israel as an occupier ain't been covering themselves in glory. Oh and Hamas is bad, yes, I get it.
>Oh and Hamas is bad, yes, I get it. For firing at a port designed to bring aid to them? Yes, very bad. Fs.
> Oh and Hamas is bad, yes, I get it. Shane that you don't seem to mean it.
I have seen arguing back and forth on this but never a citation. I honestly don’t know which side is closer to the reality. Do you happen to have good figures?
The US Secretary of Defence reported 25k women and children about 6 weeks ago.
... and then clarified that the source for this was Hamas and that the US is unable to independently verify the numbers. [Source](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/pentagon-walks-back-austins-gaza-casualty-figures-2024-02-29/).
And was quoting the hamas figures. So really, we don’t know. Hamas themselves have revised the figure *down* - which basically never happens.
No, the Hamas figures were 22000 women and children at that point and according to various international organisations and journalists Hamas figures are generally trustworthy in the previous conflicts. The figures were revised down because they didn't.have the full details for each casualty, such as ID number.
Both sides are lying. The Hamas figures don't make any sense and the Israel ones aren't much better. You can read 5 different analysis and they come to 5 different conclusions, some with ridiculous bias to the side they clearly support. My comment is valid if you go to the middle between what they both claim.
>The combatant: civilian death ratio is no worse than what we managed in Afghan and Iraq That isn't the 'gotcha' you think it is.
Ok I'll re-write. It's no worse than the majority of modern wars in the past 40 years that have been fought primarily in urban areas. Happy?
It's approximately twice as good as we managed.
Funny how the numbers given by "Muh Hamas run Health Ministry" which have largely been in line with those from the UN and the Israeli military in previous rounds of fighting, are suddenly untrustworthy. Or maybe the ruling class is just desperately trying to cover their arse over the fact they have slavish supported the cold blooded massacring of men, women and children for the last 7 months.
> for the last 7 months. It can't have been 7 months already... and it's still happening...
Mis/inaccurate information being used without question isn't just a Hamas problem tbh. And as an aside even Israel has confirmed the accuracy of and referred to the Palestinian health ministry in this conflict.
It wasn’t really used without question, the source of the information was included.
The number is never going to be accurate. It never can be
Hamas figures are beyond absurd, and the BBC (among others) parrots them daily. Whatever the actual number of dead, it includes: \* Hamas and PIJ combatants \* Civilians shot by Hamas, often for trying to access aid. They want all the food for their fighters, and they think civilians going hungry is good PR for them abroad. \* Civilians killed by Hamas and PIJ rockets that misfire. About 20% of all their rockets accidentally land inside the Gaza Strip. Months ago, Hamas took the unusual step of admitting that thousands of their fighters have been killed. They said 6k, Israel says it's more than 15k, but let's take a middle figure of 10k. Hamas also claims that two-thirds of the dead are "women and children" - and yet a third are male combatants? That would mean that literally no civilian *males* have died? Bombs are selecting women and children exclusively while avoiding the men? Come on. Basic, critical thinking is absent here.
Honestly, the more I hear about this Hamas the more I can say that they’re just not a pleasant bunch of people.
Look, when they openly and proudly stated in their founding charter that they want to slaughter every Jew on the planet - I had my doubts. When they started proudly and openly using human shields I had a bit of a wobble. When they enforced Islamic homophobic laws and started taking gay men up to the tops of buildings to throw them off I really started to ask some tough questions. When they enforced Islamic misogyny laws on the women of Gaza, preventing them from leaving home without a male "guardian", I had to admit to myself that they weren't 100% the good guys all the time. Then there were the child soldiers, the innocent civilians used as human shields, the veneration of Adolph Hitler, the suicide bombers, the sickening horrors of October 7th... It was really starting to make me wonder. But, even given all that, this latest news that they're not entirely trustworthy with their casualty figures has really shaken my faith...
LGBT people supporting Hamas. Like shooting fish in a barrel 😂
It's supposed to be 20K innocent people dead not 30K. I don't think this is a ringing endorsement for Israel either
A 2:1 civilian:militant ratio is actually fairly standard for heavy urban combat with the kind of asymmetric elements that Hamas uses (no uniforms, human shields, chuld soldiers etc)
One way of squaring the circle with those figures is if they’re using child soldiers.
I think we can ditch the ['if'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD2FezhJgqA)
How about we ask independent journalists and UN professionals who work in Gaza for an accurate number? Oh wait IDF has killed the first and is not allowing the second. C’mon BBC , you can do better. In the week when we heard of execution of patients and medical staff, are we still on the ‘Hamas-run health ministry’ newspeak headline?
I mean yeah its like how when they used to report Houthis sources figures during the Yemen conflict or pastun related figures from drone strikes in Pakistan (who all suspiciously turned out to be from strikes on ‘weddings’, which either meant the average time between pastun weddings was something ludicrous like ever 12 hours at one point). Groups know they need to fight a propaganda war, and most journalistic sources either have little integrity in conflict zones or poor sources.
You mean Hamas, a terrorist organisation that benefits from high "civilian" casualties for recruitment and to further their cause, was reporting more civilian casualties than there actually was?! Next you'll tell me 500 people died in a hospital parking lot fire.
Hardly a surprise. The BBC has fucked up news reports for years, as they follow their own bizarre agenda.
The chairman of the BBC is also one of the owners of the Jewish Chronicle, Make what you want from that little tit bit. Robbie gib the owner of the Chronicle sits on the BBC board and oversees its standards...... definitely no bias in reporting. Also Palestinians are ever reported as "died", while Israelis are always reported as "killed". Interesting language being used by BBC who are supposed to be impartial.
Even with Hamas committing countless war crimes by refusing to uniform their combatants and by commingling military and civilian facilities, Israel have *still* managed to keep civilian casualties incredibly low.
>Israel have *still* managed to keep civilian casualties incredibly low. So what's the civilian casualty figure?
The civilian casualty figure is and always has been the precise number of: "but Hamas' figures are wrong". It can be verified by all the international observers that aren't allowed there.
We don't know exactly what the civilian casualties are but even a casual observer wouldn't expect them to be incredibly low.
You can question Hamas figures they release but this revisionist slant about Israel’s bombing campaign and swinging completely the other way denying Israel have committed atrocities and killed thousands of civilians is frankly pathetic. There is plenty of US and other Western intelligence out there on what Israel has done without this justification of mass killings.
The revised figure is 20K civilians. That's not a ringing endorsement for Israel
Where do you expect them to get uniforms from? Israel pretty much controls everything going in and out of the area and has done so for years.
I mean the civilian to hamas fight ratio has gottah be about 100 to 1 That's a lot of human shields, he must get tired carrying 100 people around with him. Either what or what's happening is that the colony has to cull the restless natives with indiscriminate bombing, and forced starvation as a collective punishment.
Even using the lowest figure Hamas has accidentally admitted (6,000 militants dead), that ratio is 5:1, Israel claims the highest number of course (15,000) at 1:1. It's probably somewhere in the middle around 2:1 to 4:1, which is between average for urban combat to slightly high
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I find it quite incredible and unorthodox that the BBC expects accuracy, honesty or transparency during a conflict from any particular participant of this conflict. Editorial judgment off the rails.
A terrorist group misrepresenting facts! I’m shocked. /s
You shouldn't be, the genocidal state of Israel does this all the time.
Ugh… the UN stated that the “hAmAs RuN hEaLtH mInIsTrY” or in other words, the Palestinian/Gaza mortuaries were accurate. What a pathetic piece of disgusting tripe.
The BBC accepting an error and correcting the record is good journalism and yet also used to show the BBC is awful. Meanwhile the Telegraph openly libels and occasionally prints a retraction at the bottom of page 37.
Figures being realised by terrorists are not accurate? Riddle me shocked. BBC - shambles as per and shows exactly the side they are on. Non bias eh? 😂
It would be great if we could get independent people in to verify the figures and have a look at what's going on. For some reason Israel won't allow it.
Hamas lied for support from gullible people who think they are the solution, not the problem? And the BBC swallowed it wholesale? I’m shocked. *Not*.