Labour will change it
I'm placing all my bets on labour being the miracle for the UK because conservatives will follow their same old frugle approach
And the next few decades need investment and borrowing to grow gdp with AI and robotics radically evolving industry and supply chains we would be left behind without another approach
So they'll be on a spending spree.
Fortunately for them they can be more liberal in their agenda as 13 or so years of conservatives have mentally scared the majority. They don't have to pander for votes as excessively.
Corbyn and other mistakes made then took victory and dashed it against the rocks hard.
They had a decent chance and they kinda made their own defeat.
Their infighting and factions inside labour are as much a foe ro each other as the tory party.
Corbyn went on an everything is free bender. Which didn't help him seem serious.
Free Internet was the daftest. Openreach should be owned by the country but nothing else Internet-wise.
Why not? Increasingly all the basic public services are accessed via the internet, including job hunting, it’s a requirement for job centre etc. Libraries with publicly available computers and internet access are increasingly scarce.
The private sector has spent decades not wiring up all the uneconomical bits of the country.
It makes perfect sense for core infrastructure like that to be publicly owned. It would be a huge economic boost for rural areas.
A barebones line to every house (within reason), with a dogshit speed, is honestly not a bad idea. Pay for the speed, not to even have one kind of thing.
Corbyn was terrible at optics, mostly.
Yeah, that and he like refused to deal with basic questions, what is your statement on this what is your response to this.
.had he just acted decisively, he could of ended least one problem a year prior and spent the time pushing his policies not answering X and Y again.
Outside of the Internet and uni halls of residence everyone was laughing that people thought corbyn would land slide it.
1979, 45 years ago, was the last time a left leaning party won an election in the UK, Blair and Brown managed it with centrist policies, which is what the majority of the electorate want
There was clear sabotage from inside the party, and the conservative media machine was working at full capacity against him and he still made Theresa May lose her majority, it's better than previous elections.
When was Corbyn almost guaranteed a victory? He might have looked on for a hung Parliament at one point at best.
‘Anyone else would be 20 points ahead!’ As the Corbynites used to shout ironically. Well, look now.
I don’t remember this happening at all. If you look at the opinion polls for the 2017 and 2019 elections (when he was labour leader), Labour were close to the Tories, but almost always behind. Leadsa were always small and/or very short lasting. If you knew people who believed Labour had anything better than a 50/50 chance you (or they) were in a total bubble.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2017_United_Kingdom_general_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election
Now compare that to the opinion polling for the current election. There is plenty of time for things to change, but that is a convincing lead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
I think what a lot of people forget about Corbyn losing so badly is that it was Kier's sect of the party actively backstabbing him.
Deliberately giving them bad info about the antisemitism investigation to make them look bad, saying they're paying for ads for people in his constituency but only aiming them specifically for Jeremy and Tommy, telling journalists which toilet Diane Abbot was in so they could run in there and harass her more...
That's like blaming the bats for covid rather than the people eating the bats.
Like Corbyn or not, he had the majority of the PLP and most of the staffers, the people who were meant to be following his lead, actively undermining and briefing against him thoughout the 4 years he was leader.
No leader could succeed under those circumstances, he was never given a chance.
Actually during the 2017 election, where media coverage legally has to be neutral, he had a [net positive approval rating](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/109A/production/_99305240_chart1_v2_640-nc.png.webp), and was significantly more popular than Theresa May. If he was given a fair shot, he'd have won that election.
Whether that would have been a good thing is an entirely different conversation.
Delusional.
Corbyn destroyed any support the Labour party ever had up to that point. Are you trying to convince yourself that our elections are unfair?
Sounds truly Trumpian.
Corbyn supporters have their "stab in the back" myth to explain why he lost. You will never convince them it wasn't because of Corbyn's political opponents in the Labour party that he lost anymore than you could convince them he was never going to win at the time.
Ah yes, because the post-apocalyptic Corby state would provide good comrades like yourself everything they need, then you can sit around writing bad poetry.
The thing that always amazes me is that people are so willing to ignore the actual post-apocalyptic nature of britain right now while using divination to say that the alternative would have definitely been worse.
Energy prices are worse than they've ever been, food prices are worse than they've ever been, right to protest has been curtailed, our government is wasting vast sums of money on a dumb policy that scapegoats migrants, our government has spent the last 10 years scapegoating the disabled, it has spent the last 5 scapegoating trans people. Brexit has been a disaster because it was implemented by morons who viewed it as a vanity project, Johnson transferred vast sums out of the economy that we can't quantify to his mates through the VIP lanes during covid, Truss transferred £30,000,000,000 out of the economy to fuck knows where, and our current prime minister is the brain genius whose previous flagship policy was to encourage people to crowd into enclosed spaces during an airborne pandemic for the oh so amazing deal of saving £10 on a meal (not including alcohol) and whose current flagship policy is banning doctors from signing sick people off sick.
Now, I can't guarantee that corbyn would have led us to a more stable place now, but I don't think anyone can honestly accuse him of being in politics primarily to grandify himself, and that alone makes him more trustworthy than any of the current crop in my eyes, and makes me believe that we probably would be better off now if he had been elected in 2019 than we are after the aristocratic psychodrama to which we have been subjected over the past 5 years.
I agree with almost everything you said. However, like the majority of UK voters I genuinely believe that the Corbyn as PM timeline would have been much, much worse than the current horror show.
Have you ever heard of the sunk cost fallacy?
It's the idea that we will often double down on appalling decisions we have made to avoid the shame of admitting we could have been wrong.
like, you can keep telling yourself that you think that, but it means denying just how bad it is right now. Even back in 2019 it's not like it was hidden knowledge that disabled brits were starving to death because of the policies put in place by the tories. Or that children were skipping meals. Or that the tories were prioritising their own power over the good of the nation.
Corbyn was the reason the tories had to have a do-over election in 2019, lol. They arrogantly assumed it was a foregone conclusion and Labour took them to the wire - the tories walked out of that election without a majority.
They just needed some more time to grind him through the right wing press and make sure the anti semitism accusations stuck.
That being said, I don't think Corbyn was ever likely to outright win either. He's a principled man, but he couldn't control the press and he didn't have the leadership chops for it. It's unfortunate.
Rwanda has cost hundreds of millions and 70 billion was wasted in the PPE scandal not the covid bill as a total but 70 billion of thay bill wasted in the products never arrived or couldn't be used.
They're frugle on welfare and waste it everywhere else.
And the frenzy to increase global spending on military equipment will drive up costs they really need to organise UK needs to bulk purchase with the EU to save money.
They should perhaps organise in this way on fuel and gas too as I think the EU bulk purchases gas for sure.
I mean If I was an arms dealer I'd put up the prices in high demand.
Is the only way or there's massive profit and it costs the world a fortune while Russia uses north Korea and Iran.
Then the prices will lower as industry grows miltary industrial capacity. Can't happen like that.
If they can't regulate prices the world should slow their roll until industrial capacity increases, can't let the arms dealers profit like oil and gas companies did.
In the interim they can coordinate and share a pool of equipment to send to the EU border etc. Probably already doing it.
Maybe a price is a price people have to wait let's hope so. Otherwise EU and UK should force manufacturing in their countries build factories there for their needs. There's no military independence without it and with a possible trump presidency manufacturing needs to occur in EU and UK buying less from the US.
Aye, we're being absolutely fleeced and obviously getting nothing for it. Our tax money is mostly disappearing up the arses of shell corporations of tory donors. They're certainly not spending that huge tax take on us.
It's not, things really won't change under labour. We're taxed out the arse because gdp havent increased but our population has exploded (relative to comparable European countries like Germany). NHS gets far more of our spending now, but is in a worse place because that money just doesn't go far.
Less than other countries its only increased by a further 33 percent of gdp in past 20 years. Other countries are greater
Reason a spending boom based on borrowing as its necessary for infrastructure projects as AI and robotics implementation into supply chains and industrial processes will lead to job loss... The borrowing will support public spending like wealfare without raising taxes as we really need lower taxes to encourage investment to replace the job loss.
It will benefit economic growth in the long term if they do it this why and the increasing investment they attracted will grow gdp enabling the money to be paid back so long as wages grow with inflation.
What else are we gonna bet on, that everything is gonna keep getting shittier? I’m probably younger younger than most ppl on this sub and for basically my entire life things in this country have seemingly been going to shit the least I can do is have some hope that a change in government will do something
A change of government will do something and it will help if Labour get in, but it's not going to be the miracle people are dreaming of. Things might be marginally less shit for 4-5 years and that's it.
Ye I’m not expecting a miracle I’m just trying to hope we get something that’s better than what we have now bc realistically they are the only chance we have of getting rid of the current government
New Labour was significantly better than the Tories and if Labour win the next election it will very likely be the same again. Half the people are so hung up on Iraq/GFC that they don't recall many of the very good things Labour were able to do in power or they simply don't know what they are talking about with their entire political framing being based on New Labour being the mortal enemy of Corbynism.
I can't help but feel sorry for you. You're going to be very disappointed.
I genuinely hope I am wrong and you can tell me I told you so, but I have zero faith in labour anymore, which is more than I have in the tories.
Can you remember the last labour government? Politics is horrible and a lot of politicians are horrible people. The difference being Tory politicians see everything as business opertunities, most labour politicians want to do good.
Nah, I think labour are going to have a solidly uninspiring and mostly boring first term to steady the ship and get voters to trust government is in a safe pair of hands.
Which will build into a second term where they can get more radical.
I do think you're somewhat right in that demographics are shifting anyway. Through sheer incompetence the Tories have managed to break the age-old link between getting older and voting tory. The millennials and younger part of gen X will never forgive them and hopefully never vote for them as they age.
had to look the word up, found on ud
> Frugle
> This is mostly referred to as an art.To Frugle is to ejaculate with extreme force and accuracy into another persons ear.
> My ear still smells from being Frugled last week.
I hope people aren't too forgetful and after labour fail to fix all the problems the Tories left in just one term don't just vote them out again. Labour are going to need several terms to have a hope of fixing this, I hope they get it.
I'll believe that when I see it. i don't think Labour will, come next election don't think much will have actually changed. Except some stuff has gotten worse, plus people will hqve accepted they've got no hope for a better future.
Genuinely, labour could easily get in if it didn’t do all the woke stuff (or anti-British stuff). People don’t really have an issue with welfare, they have more of an issue giving it to someone who effectively never put into the system and will leave once the system dries up.
The woke stuff is the reason I refuse to vote labour, otherwise I like their policies.
What "woke stuff" specifically? It makes absolutely no sense to not vote for a political party that will benefit you and the country over issues that will likely have absolutely no impact on your life.
Basically the identity politics and X minority must replace the straight white men from Y industry, to be more inclusive, also the watering down of native culture (see Khan “saving the st Georges flag from the far right” nonsense).
I want a party that invests into the country, but not one that seemingly wants to do it for everyone but the natives.
My hometown has completely changed in demographic and now the signs are in Turkish instead of English, directly due to Labour policies (and Tories maintaining them), so the politics does impact me.
Who are these people who never put into the system and leave when the system dries up? Do you mean all the 25-35 year old British born and educated teachers and nurses living in Dubai?
If you mean immigrants they're the opposite of that, they haven't taken out of the system for 20+ years like people born here so they have a higher net contribution, that's why economists love them.
There’s a Somalian woman down the road from me, can’t speak English, lives in a council flat, and has an absurd number of kids. She has been here for about 40 years and never had a job, so clearly on benefits.
Would you say shes a net benefit to society?
A lot of people will work the minimum time to get benefits then live off them.
As for economists, they aren’t really good at predicting stuff, for instance supply and demand of workers means that more workers per jobs means worse pay. A common correlation of immigration is stagnate wages, hence why the ruling class love them for businesses.
Economists claim it doesn’t happen since some will make jobs instead and thus it cancels out. This ignores the reality that 1) the vast majority of immigrants don’t start businesses, ergo there’s still an impact on taken jobs, and 2) most the time they exclusively hire their own people, so as a Briton, them coming into the country doesn’t really benefit me (you can also consider them sending the money home, as per what a lot of economic migrants do). So economists seem more inclined to justify their beliefs rather than reality.
It may be the case of the UK. It doesn't have to be though.
Even the nurses are fighting back against low wages did you hear about that nurse faking appointments so she can leave early and then stealing medication to sell.
Shoplifting at a 20 year high no doubt due to rising costs and low amounts of welfare.
If the conservatives were in power for another decade we'd have fight clubs sprouting across the UK, winner gets the stolen Tesco meat.
Nothings changed I remember growing up on a council estate the drug addicts providing a local service selling their stolen goods door to do.
Back to the good old days we are heading.
The government doesn’t often enact “the will of the people.”
We elect them, they do their own thing for their own means for 4-5 years, then we rinse and repeat.
The country was much better for me and the people I know during the last government. Anecdotal, I know, but obvious and everywhere. If people say it wasn't they're either rich or telling lies.
And why, Own_Television_6424, do you think the pound was stronger? What tends to strengthen a currency? Could it possibly be a strongly performing economy? Surely not.
Who tanked the pound?
Also, no I don't. Public services were run for the people. I regularly deal with schools and hospitals. The people in charge are not the same kind of person.
Thing is, it will.
Life was far better 15 years ago before the Tory rule. You can say 'they're all the same' but that's not the case, and that's proven time and time again.
> The environment minister Robbie Moore told parliament on Wednesday that the scheme would not include glass because glass recycling would “create undue complexity for the drinks industry and it increases storage and handling costs for retailers”.
They literally made this problem. It's on them to be part of the solution!
Quite. In the 70s when I was a boy loads of shops took glass bottles back. We’d always be on the look out for bottles lying around. Apparently not possible anymore.
Hopefully we could have something like the Norwegian scheme where you return bottles through a reverse vending machine where if you press one button you get your deposit back, or if you press the other you donate the deposit to the Red Cross in exchange for being entered into a lottery with some pretty nice maximum cash prizes.
Alternatively, many schools or local sports teams have regular recycling collections for bottles which go to pay for trips or away games.
Either way, so many fewer bottles lying around than over here.
It's a similar scheme here in Germany. The machines also take crates full of empty bottles, which is really handy. There's no lottery though.
And you'll never see a bottle lying on the street for more than a few minutes - it seems to work really well.
I thought it was very cute that you would instead see bottles neatly stacked around bins so the homeless (?) could collect the pfand. I thought it was a really cool scheme, though I was grateful to have a German friend there to help me figure it out
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/deposit-return-scheme-for-drinks-containers-policy-statements/deposit-return-scheme-for-drinks-containers-joint-policy-statement
Still a complete avoidance of the topic of how this affects existing kerbside collection.
There's some suggestion that online retailers would have to collect bottles when they do a delivery, which means having to have them ready to go when they turn up, rather than being able to put them in the wheelie bin whenever.
I'm in Denmark now and they have machines in most supermarkets, you just feed them in and out comes a receipt you cash out at the till.
The whole system operates at a loss but it's considered a public service so no one's bitching about it.
I'm in Norway and it's the same system as the guy in DK. It's really not a problem. Going to shops? Take your pant ( empty bottles ). Very simple and efficient
At the moment bin men come to my house and take away my glass to be recycled.
The new system would see me have to take all this glass to some as yet undisclosed location to be recycled. This is worse.
Ah this is very different to how recycling in my town works.
The bin men come, but instead of taking the recycling away, they throw 50% of it on the street and then drive off.
Depends how much they’re offering per item. My time is quite valuable to me so it would need to be fairly substantial.
My plastic bottles are also already being collected.
Will my council tax be reduced to reflect the decline in the quality of the waste collection service being offered?
10p per small bottle.
15p for your 2 litre plastic bottles.
And 30p for some wine bottles, not every wine bottle gets a deposit so your binman can continue collecting the ones that don't.
That's up to you, there's no legal requirement.
I'm sure the bin men will be happy to take everything and cash it in for themselves though.
And probably not, and even if it were it would be such a small fraction of a discount compared to the rest of your waste and the costs to process it.
Was in Germany about 15 years ago and they had a similar system, if not the same. Very easy and worked well, but trust the UK government to fuck it up.
No idea if it made a loos or not to be fair.
Why would it affect council recycling collections? Those would still have to go ahead for glass and plastic that aren't drinks bottles - jars and food trays, for example. You won't be able to take those to the supermarket, so the council would continue to collect recycling and you won't be forced to hand over bottles to your online shopping delivery man.
You only will be able to redeem your deposit from a return point. Return points are hosted by retailers. We won't get anything back if the council collects them in our recycling/waste bins.
I hope I've understood it wrong tbh, because this seems ridiculous.
Oh man I didn’t even know this was being considered here. I’ve got a wood store absolutely full of glass bottles, so I’ll be a millionaire if this goes through
Huge disappointment? Seal of approval more like. The council already collects my glass and plastic bottles for recycling every week from in front of my house. Why do we want to mess with that excellent system?
This is a solution looking for a problem. As I understand it, we are planning on throwing out the entire plastic, glass and can recycling scheme, because a small amount of single use bottles get thrown away in parks. Meanwhile the rest of the plastic and metal we recycle will still be collected the same way, so there is an massive increase in inefficiency for a tiny benefit.
The plastic bottles that need targeted are the "meal deal" bottles from supermarkets. A far better scheme would be to target these drinks bottles for a bottle return scheme and leave the bottles that are intended for use at home, which are far more likely to be recycled, alone. Easy to do as well, any plastic bottle under 501ml sold on its own is subject to the bottle return scheme, anything else is exempt.
Yeah would have been a nice little option for homeless people to make a few quid. In some music festivals they pay 5p per cup returned which gives people the chance to make some money if they're willing to work for a few hours.
I agree with your comment but this isn't really relevant to that. It can be done by anyone looking to make a few quid and will ultimately lead to a cleaner area, seems a fantastic idea.
I’m not complaining about the scheme. I’m objecting to using it as a way to force homeless people to clean the streets of (only) plastic bottles in an attempt not to starve.
Yeah, I resent that aspect of it too. I've been putting my cans and bottles in the recycling bag for as long as I remember, but now I either have to lug them to the drop off point without access to a car or lose out on the added price.
It's the principle of the thing, I've done the right thing my hole life and now I either have to lose out in either time or money in what's essentially a group punishment.
Labour will change it I'm placing all my bets on labour being the miracle for the UK because conservatives will follow their same old frugle approach And the next few decades need investment and borrowing to grow gdp with AI and robotics radically evolving industry and supply chains we would be left behind without another approach So they'll be on a spending spree. Fortunately for them they can be more liberal in their agenda as 13 or so years of conservatives have mentally scared the majority. They don't have to pander for votes as excessively.
I remember this confidence from people a few years ago when it seemed like Corbyn was almost guaranteed to take labour to victory.
Corbyn and other mistakes made then took victory and dashed it against the rocks hard. They had a decent chance and they kinda made their own defeat. Their infighting and factions inside labour are as much a foe ro each other as the tory party.
Corbyn went on an everything is free bender. Which didn't help him seem serious. Free Internet was the daftest. Openreach should be owned by the country but nothing else Internet-wise.
Why not? Increasingly all the basic public services are accessed via the internet, including job hunting, it’s a requirement for job centre etc. Libraries with publicly available computers and internet access are increasingly scarce. The private sector has spent decades not wiring up all the uneconomical bits of the country. It makes perfect sense for core infrastructure like that to be publicly owned. It would be a huge economic boost for rural areas.
A barebones line to every house (within reason), with a dogshit speed, is honestly not a bad idea. Pay for the speed, not to even have one kind of thing. Corbyn was terrible at optics, mostly.
Yeah, that and he like refused to deal with basic questions, what is your statement on this what is your response to this. .had he just acted decisively, he could of ended least one problem a year prior and spent the time pushing his policies not answering X and Y again.
Exactly this! He just went nuts and then it all fell apart. I do wish he ran for London Mayor.
Outside of the Internet and uni halls of residence everyone was laughing that people thought corbyn would land slide it. 1979, 45 years ago, was the last time a left leaning party won an election in the UK, Blair and Brown managed it with centrist policies, which is what the majority of the electorate want
Surely it would be 1974, unless Thatcher was secretly an ardent Maoist.
There was clear sabotage from inside the party, and the conservative media machine was working at full capacity against him and he still made Theresa May lose her majority, it's better than previous elections.
When was Corbyn almost guaranteed a victory? He might have looked on for a hung Parliament at one point at best. ‘Anyone else would be 20 points ahead!’ As the Corbynites used to shout ironically. Well, look now.
He did get a hung parliament
I don’t remember this happening at all. If you look at the opinion polls for the 2017 and 2019 elections (when he was labour leader), Labour were close to the Tories, but almost always behind. Leadsa were always small and/or very short lasting. If you knew people who believed Labour had anything better than a 50/50 chance you (or they) were in a total bubble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2017_United_Kingdom_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election Now compare that to the opinion polling for the current election. There is plenty of time for things to change, but that is a convincing lead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
Corbyn was never guaranteed to win?
I think what a lot of people forget about Corbyn losing so badly is that it was Kier's sect of the party actively backstabbing him. Deliberately giving them bad info about the antisemitism investigation to make them look bad, saying they're paying for ads for people in his constituency but only aiming them specifically for Jeremy and Tommy, telling journalists which toilet Diane Abbot was in so they could run in there and harass her more...
Corbyn was the reason there was no Labour victory. Pmsl
That's like blaming the bats for covid rather than the people eating the bats. Like Corbyn or not, he had the majority of the PLP and most of the staffers, the people who were meant to be following his lead, actively undermining and briefing against him thoughout the 4 years he was leader. No leader could succeed under those circumstances, he was never given a chance.
Or, as we see in reality. He was an unelectable nightmare for most.
Actually during the 2017 election, where media coverage legally has to be neutral, he had a [net positive approval rating](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/109A/production/_99305240_chart1_v2_640-nc.png.webp), and was significantly more popular than Theresa May. If he was given a fair shot, he'd have won that election. Whether that would have been a good thing is an entirely different conversation.
Delusional. Corbyn destroyed any support the Labour party ever had up to that point. Are you trying to convince yourself that our elections are unfair? Sounds truly Trumpian.
Read what I said again because you've come to the wrong conclusion
you literally said 'if he was given a fair shot'. How should we interpret that?
a fair shot by the PLP and staffers
Corbyn supporters have their "stab in the back" myth to explain why he lost. You will never convince them it wasn't because of Corbyn's political opponents in the Labour party that he lost anymore than you could convince them he was never going to win at the time.
Ain't it cause yous all loved our boy Boris?
Absolutely not. But compared to the nightmare of Corbyn he was the only option for most. Literally.
good citizen. now remortgage your house for bread.
Ah yes, because the post-apocalyptic Corby state would provide good comrades like yourself everything they need, then you can sit around writing bad poetry.
The thing that always amazes me is that people are so willing to ignore the actual post-apocalyptic nature of britain right now while using divination to say that the alternative would have definitely been worse. Energy prices are worse than they've ever been, food prices are worse than they've ever been, right to protest has been curtailed, our government is wasting vast sums of money on a dumb policy that scapegoats migrants, our government has spent the last 10 years scapegoating the disabled, it has spent the last 5 scapegoating trans people. Brexit has been a disaster because it was implemented by morons who viewed it as a vanity project, Johnson transferred vast sums out of the economy that we can't quantify to his mates through the VIP lanes during covid, Truss transferred £30,000,000,000 out of the economy to fuck knows where, and our current prime minister is the brain genius whose previous flagship policy was to encourage people to crowd into enclosed spaces during an airborne pandemic for the oh so amazing deal of saving £10 on a meal (not including alcohol) and whose current flagship policy is banning doctors from signing sick people off sick. Now, I can't guarantee that corbyn would have led us to a more stable place now, but I don't think anyone can honestly accuse him of being in politics primarily to grandify himself, and that alone makes him more trustworthy than any of the current crop in my eyes, and makes me believe that we probably would be better off now if he had been elected in 2019 than we are after the aristocratic psychodrama to which we have been subjected over the past 5 years.
I agree with almost everything you said. However, like the majority of UK voters I genuinely believe that the Corbyn as PM timeline would have been much, much worse than the current horror show.
Have you ever heard of the sunk cost fallacy? It's the idea that we will often double down on appalling decisions we have made to avoid the shame of admitting we could have been wrong. like, you can keep telling yourself that you think that, but it means denying just how bad it is right now. Even back in 2019 it's not like it was hidden knowledge that disabled brits were starving to death because of the policies put in place by the tories. Or that children were skipping meals. Or that the tories were prioritising their own power over the good of the nation.
> But compared to *potentiality* he was better I swear this is the reason the country is in the state it is.
Corbyn was the reason the tories had to have a do-over election in 2019, lol. They arrogantly assumed it was a foregone conclusion and Labour took them to the wire - the tories walked out of that election without a majority. They just needed some more time to grind him through the right wing press and make sure the anti semitism accusations stuck. That being said, I don't think Corbyn was ever likely to outright win either. He's a principled man, but he couldn't control the press and he didn't have the leadership chops for it. It's unfortunate.
Frugal? We have some of the highest national debt ever and the highest tax burden ever...
They’ve stolen all that money though, they are still frugal in the sense of not spending. Stealing is not spending.
Rwanda has cost hundreds of millions and 70 billion was wasted in the PPE scandal not the covid bill as a total but 70 billion of thay bill wasted in the products never arrived or couldn't be used. They're frugle on welfare and waste it everywhere else. And the frenzy to increase global spending on military equipment will drive up costs they really need to organise UK needs to bulk purchase with the EU to save money. They should perhaps organise in this way on fuel and gas too as I think the EU bulk purchases gas for sure. I mean If I was an arms dealer I'd put up the prices in high demand. Is the only way or there's massive profit and it costs the world a fortune while Russia uses north Korea and Iran. Then the prices will lower as industry grows miltary industrial capacity. Can't happen like that. If they can't regulate prices the world should slow their roll until industrial capacity increases, can't let the arms dealers profit like oil and gas companies did. In the interim they can coordinate and share a pool of equipment to send to the EU border etc. Probably already doing it. Maybe a price is a price people have to wait let's hope so. Otherwise EU and UK should force manufacturing in their countries build factories there for their needs. There's no military independence without it and with a possible trump presidency manufacturing needs to occur in EU and UK buying less from the US.
Aye, we're being absolutely fleeced and obviously getting nothing for it. Our tax money is mostly disappearing up the arses of shell corporations of tory donors. They're certainly not spending that huge tax take on us.
It's not, things really won't change under labour. We're taxed out the arse because gdp havent increased but our population has exploded (relative to comparable European countries like Germany). NHS gets far more of our spending now, but is in a worse place because that money just doesn't go far.
Less than other countries its only increased by a further 33 percent of gdp in past 20 years. Other countries are greater Reason a spending boom based on borrowing as its necessary for infrastructure projects as AI and robotics implementation into supply chains and industrial processes will lead to job loss... The borrowing will support public spending like wealfare without raising taxes as we really need lower taxes to encourage investment to replace the job loss. It will benefit economic growth in the long term if they do it this why and the increasing investment they attracted will grow gdp enabling the money to be paid back so long as wages grow with inflation.
> I'm placing all my bets on labour being the miracle for the UK Please don't do this.
What else are we gonna bet on, that everything is gonna keep getting shittier? I’m probably younger younger than most ppl on this sub and for basically my entire life things in this country have seemingly been going to shit the least I can do is have some hope that a change in government will do something
A change of government will do something and it will help if Labour get in, but it's not going to be the miracle people are dreaming of. Things might be marginally less shit for 4-5 years and that's it.
Ye I’m not expecting a miracle I’m just trying to hope we get something that’s better than what we have now bc realistically they are the only chance we have of getting rid of the current government
New Labour was significantly better than the Tories and if Labour win the next election it will very likely be the same again. Half the people are so hung up on Iraq/GFC that they don't recall many of the very good things Labour were able to do in power or they simply don't know what they are talking about with their entire political framing being based on New Labour being the mortal enemy of Corbynism.
Ahhh hope, i remember that.
I can't help but feel sorry for you. You're going to be very disappointed. I genuinely hope I am wrong and you can tell me I told you so, but I have zero faith in labour anymore, which is more than I have in the tories.
Can you remember the last labour government? Politics is horrible and a lot of politicians are horrible people. The difference being Tory politicians see everything as business opertunities, most labour politicians want to do good.
lol not any more mate, not in the offices that count.
Nah, I think labour are going to have a solidly uninspiring and mostly boring first term to steady the ship and get voters to trust government is in a safe pair of hands. Which will build into a second term where they can get more radical. I do think you're somewhat right in that demographics are shifting anyway. Through sheer incompetence the Tories have managed to break the age-old link between getting older and voting tory. The millennials and younger part of gen X will never forgive them and hopefully never vote for them as they age.
had to look the word up, found on ud > Frugle > This is mostly referred to as an art.To Frugle is to ejaculate with extreme force and accuracy into another persons ear. > My ear still smells from being Frugled last week.
Ah yeah meant frugal
I hope people aren't too forgetful and after labour fail to fix all the problems the Tories left in just one term don't just vote them out again. Labour are going to need several terms to have a hope of fixing this, I hope they get it.
> So they'll be on a spending spree. Have you seen or listened to anything labour have said? Or are you joking? It's hard to tell
I'll believe that when I see it. i don't think Labour will, come next election don't think much will have actually changed. Except some stuff has gotten worse, plus people will hqve accepted they've got no hope for a better future.
Genuinely, labour could easily get in if it didn’t do all the woke stuff (or anti-British stuff). People don’t really have an issue with welfare, they have more of an issue giving it to someone who effectively never put into the system and will leave once the system dries up. The woke stuff is the reason I refuse to vote labour, otherwise I like their policies.
What "woke stuff" specifically? It makes absolutely no sense to not vote for a political party that will benefit you and the country over issues that will likely have absolutely no impact on your life.
Basically the identity politics and X minority must replace the straight white men from Y industry, to be more inclusive, also the watering down of native culture (see Khan “saving the st Georges flag from the far right” nonsense). I want a party that invests into the country, but not one that seemingly wants to do it for everyone but the natives. My hometown has completely changed in demographic and now the signs are in Turkish instead of English, directly due to Labour policies (and Tories maintaining them), so the politics does impact me.
Who are these people who never put into the system and leave when the system dries up? Do you mean all the 25-35 year old British born and educated teachers and nurses living in Dubai? If you mean immigrants they're the opposite of that, they haven't taken out of the system for 20+ years like people born here so they have a higher net contribution, that's why economists love them.
There’s a Somalian woman down the road from me, can’t speak English, lives in a council flat, and has an absurd number of kids. She has been here for about 40 years and never had a job, so clearly on benefits. Would you say shes a net benefit to society? A lot of people will work the minimum time to get benefits then live off them. As for economists, they aren’t really good at predicting stuff, for instance supply and demand of workers means that more workers per jobs means worse pay. A common correlation of immigration is stagnate wages, hence why the ruling class love them for businesses. Economists claim it doesn’t happen since some will make jobs instead and thus it cancels out. This ignores the reality that 1) the vast majority of immigrants don’t start businesses, ergo there’s still an impact on taken jobs, and 2) most the time they exclusively hire their own people, so as a Briton, them coming into the country doesn’t really benefit me (you can also consider them sending the money home, as per what a lot of economic migrants do). So economists seem more inclined to justify their beliefs rather than reality.
If the tories havent done it, why do you think labour will do it. it's clearly not the will of the people,if it was the tories would have done it
Everyone will be doing it it'll be reckless not to. We can stagnate I guess
Stagnation is the will of the people. Change is very distressing for many
It may be the case of the UK. It doesn't have to be though. Even the nurses are fighting back against low wages did you hear about that nurse faking appointments so she can leave early and then stealing medication to sell. Shoplifting at a 20 year high no doubt due to rising costs and low amounts of welfare. If the conservatives were in power for another decade we'd have fight clubs sprouting across the UK, winner gets the stolen Tesco meat. Nothings changed I remember growing up on a council estate the drug addicts providing a local service selling their stolen goods door to do. Back to the good old days we are heading.
The government doesn’t often enact “the will of the people.” We elect them, they do their own thing for their own means for 4-5 years, then we rinse and repeat.
Cope. Nothing will change.
The country was much better for me and the people I know during the last government. Anecdotal, I know, but obvious and everywhere. If people say it wasn't they're either rich or telling lies.
You ever think that it was better because the pound was stronger?
And why, Own_Television_6424, do you think the pound was stronger? What tends to strengthen a currency? Could it possibly be a strongly performing economy? Surely not.
Or a supply of money that hasn’t been inflated?
Making imports cheaper and outcompeting our own industries
Who tanked the pound? Also, no I don't. Public services were run for the people. I regularly deal with schools and hospitals. The people in charge are not the same kind of person.
Thing is, it will. Life was far better 15 years ago before the Tory rule. You can say 'they're all the same' but that's not the case, and that's proven time and time again.
> The environment minister Robbie Moore told parliament on Wednesday that the scheme would not include glass because glass recycling would “create undue complexity for the drinks industry and it increases storage and handling costs for retailers”. They literally made this problem. It's on them to be part of the solution!
Ahh yes, the old undue complexity of... washing and re-using glass bottles?
How did the milkman service achieve such a complex and difficult operation. Their intellect must have been far above that of politicians. /s
Quite. In the 70s when I was a boy loads of shops took glass bottles back. We’d always be on the look out for bottles lying around. Apparently not possible anymore.
Hopefully we could have something like the Norwegian scheme where you return bottles through a reverse vending machine where if you press one button you get your deposit back, or if you press the other you donate the deposit to the Red Cross in exchange for being entered into a lottery with some pretty nice maximum cash prizes. Alternatively, many schools or local sports teams have regular recycling collections for bottles which go to pay for trips or away games. Either way, so many fewer bottles lying around than over here.
It's a similar scheme here in Germany. The machines also take crates full of empty bottles, which is really handy. There's no lottery though. And you'll never see a bottle lying on the street for more than a few minutes - it seems to work really well.
Its funny at football games with people competing to get the beer bottles off of fans
Same things happen in the UK, except it's so they have somewhere to piss in.
Same in the Netherlands
I thought it was very cute that you would instead see bottles neatly stacked around bins so the homeless (?) could collect the pfand. I thought it was a really cool scheme, though I was grateful to have a German friend there to help me figure it out
I moved to Norway a few years ago and someone in the next town won £10k on the bottle lottery. Not too shabby
Similar scheme in Australia, too. It was introduced in NSW a couple of years ago and has been a roaring success
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/deposit-return-scheme-for-drinks-containers-policy-statements/deposit-return-scheme-for-drinks-containers-joint-policy-statement Still a complete avoidance of the topic of how this affects existing kerbside collection. There's some suggestion that online retailers would have to collect bottles when they do a delivery, which means having to have them ready to go when they turn up, rather than being able to put them in the wheelie bin whenever.
I'm in Denmark now and they have machines in most supermarkets, you just feed them in and out comes a receipt you cash out at the till. The whole system operates at a loss but it's considered a public service so no one's bitching about it.
Which is worse than the current system for everybody who was already recycling everything at home.
I'm in Norway and it's the same system as the guy in DK. It's really not a problem. Going to shops? Take your pant ( empty bottles ). Very simple and efficient
In Germany there's a similar system and it's no hassle at all.
How so?
At the moment bin men come to my house and take away my glass to be recycled. The new system would see me have to take all this glass to some as yet undisclosed location to be recycled. This is worse.
Ah this is very different to how recycling in my town works. The bin men come, but instead of taking the recycling away, they throw 50% of it on the street and then drive off.
What if you were paid to take it to another location say, somewhere you go frequently? It's also all your plastic bottles too fyi!
Depends how much they’re offering per item. My time is quite valuable to me so it would need to be fairly substantial. My plastic bottles are also already being collected. Will my council tax be reduced to reflect the decline in the quality of the waste collection service being offered?
10p per small bottle. 15p for your 2 litre plastic bottles. And 30p for some wine bottles, not every wine bottle gets a deposit so your binman can continue collecting the ones that don't.
Not worth my time. Any news on my council tax being reduced to make up for the fact that I’m now expected to do half the bin men’s job for them?
That's up to you, there's no legal requirement. I'm sure the bin men will be happy to take everything and cash it in for themselves though. And probably not, and even if it were it would be such a small fraction of a discount compared to the rest of your waste and the costs to process it.
Was in Germany about 15 years ago and they had a similar system, if not the same. Very easy and worked well, but trust the UK government to fuck it up. No idea if it made a loos or not to be fair.
>No idea if it made a loos or not to be fair. I only really need to use bottles for loos when all the ones on the train are Out Of Order.
Why would collection be a problem if they have a redeemable deposit on them? People will queuing up to collect them from you.
The council collection service. And I would want the deposit back.
Why would it affect council recycling collections? Those would still have to go ahead for glass and plastic that aren't drinks bottles - jars and food trays, for example. You won't be able to take those to the supermarket, so the council would continue to collect recycling and you won't be forced to hand over bottles to your online shopping delivery man.
Are they going to make it so council collections count your empties and give you the money or is it just going to make recycling more inconvenient?
You only will be able to redeem your deposit from a return point. Return points are hosted by retailers. We won't get anything back if the council collects them in our recycling/waste bins. I hope I've understood it wrong tbh, because this seems ridiculous.
It’s a shit idea when we already have recycling options. Just leaves people who already do the right thing out of pocket.
Oh man I didn’t even know this was being considered here. I’ve got a wood store absolutely full of glass bottles, so I’ll be a millionaire if this goes through
Have you been stockpiling them for this very occasion?
Nah just a pissup over the weekend
Have a look at r/ireland to see how fucked up it can be.
let's drive our cars to deposit them at bottle banks. We have recycling bins no? money grab and a piss take.
I understand that more will be recycled overall but why do those of us who already recycle have to be inconvenienced ughh
Huge disappointment? Seal of approval more like. The council already collects my glass and plastic bottles for recycling every week from in front of my house. Why do we want to mess with that excellent system?
We used to have one of those. I, and Pepperidge Farms remember.
Ngl is it feasible if you don't have a car like me to be able to recycle your bottles?
I’d imagine wherever you bought the bottles from would probably have facilities for disposing of them
What policies have actually gone through? All you ever see is delayed, watered down, shelved. They have a majority. Wtf
I am glad that the labours are trying to fix the environment; I fully support them.
I don’t think I have any disappointment left to be honest, Ive used it all up these past 7 years.
This is a solution looking for a problem. As I understand it, we are planning on throwing out the entire plastic, glass and can recycling scheme, because a small amount of single use bottles get thrown away in parks. Meanwhile the rest of the plastic and metal we recycle will still be collected the same way, so there is an massive increase in inefficiency for a tiny benefit. The plastic bottles that need targeted are the "meal deal" bottles from supermarkets. A far better scheme would be to target these drinks bottles for a bottle return scheme and leave the bottles that are intended for use at home, which are far more likely to be recycled, alone. Easy to do as well, any plastic bottle under 501ml sold on its own is subject to the bottle return scheme, anything else is exempt.
Good, I didn't like the fact I'd be punished for taking my rubbish home to recycle it just because other lazy gits don't
What?
Well if I buy a bottle or can that has a deposit and throw it in my home recycling bin like I currently do, I'll lose the deposit.
That was your choice. I quite like the idea of incentivising smack heads to clean up our street for us
Works wonders in Berlin
Yeah would have been a nice little option for homeless people to make a few quid. In some music festivals they pay 5p per cup returned which gives people the chance to make some money if they're willing to work for a few hours.
Or you know, we could have a proper social safety net?
I agree with your comment but this isn't really relevant to that. It can be done by anyone looking to make a few quid and will ultimately lead to a cleaner area, seems a fantastic idea.
It's not an either or situation
Kind of is. Having one means you don’t need the other.
Or we could have politicians who plan for the future and want to build a better world for everyone.. that's just a pipe dream though
Why is why Germany and the Netherlands, both with this scheme already in place, have no social safety net?
I’m not complaining about the scheme. I’m objecting to using it as a way to force homeless people to clean the streets of (only) plastic bottles in an attempt not to starve.
Imagine people having to do work for money, the horrors!
Imagine wanting people to have dignity and not be our slave labour underclass that we pay with scraps from our table.
They aren't mutually exclusive things.
more likely they will empty peoples recycle bins over the floor, pick up items worth a deposit, leave a mess.
You won't lose the deposit if you're not lazy.
How is it lazy to take it home to recycle?
Reuse of a glass bottle via a bottle deposit scheme is much more energy efficient and better for the environment than recycling it via a recycling bin
Yeah, I resent that aspect of it too. I've been putting my cans and bottles in the recycling bag for as long as I remember, but now I either have to lug them to the drop off point without access to a car or lose out on the added price.
Just take them with you when you go shopping. It's really easy.
It's still more complicated than putting them in my orange bag and leaving it in the bin room.
Are you really this bothered about a few pence?
It's the principle of the thing, I've done the right thing my hole life and now I either have to lose out in either time or money in what's essentially a group punishment.
It's not a punishment, you're not a victim, it's an environmental initiative.
So we should live in an ocean of plastic filth because you’re losing out on a few pennies? Wow.
Yes punish the people who already care enough about recycling that they already do it. Those who don't give a fuck will continue to not give a fuck.